Mafiascum.net

burning a post to fix that tag.

In post 164, Sou and Kanna wrote: many questions

what do you think is the difference between IDGAF and DGAF? what does any of this mean?
why are the votes bad? wasn't bingle one of your top scumreads?
why agar?

~kanna

like children often do
she said...

---

Kanna, I misunderstood what AGar was referring to. Agar doesn't give a fuck about clidd feeling sorry for himself, and thinks it's NAI. I thought he meant that clidd didn't give a fuck about the game.

---

A wagon in Bingle is perfectly fine.
I was only refering to clidd's vote, and included Buldge's for context. clidd's vote is bad because he goes from voting KMD to Bingle, even though he previously expressed a significantly stronger scum read on Agar than Bingle.
It seemed to me that clidd's vote was more about getting a wagon growing on Bingle rather than pursuing his top scum read.

In post 159, The Bulge wrote:Bingle cannot generate content without some kind of mechanical or non-game-related crutch. their only game post was a fresh out of the ass critique of your freudposting that made no sense. Like they saw the post and said "I bet I can find something actionable here"

?

Is this a reference to the fact that I put non game related information into my game related posts, or an accusation that none of my posts are game related? Is there a particular reason that you've chosen not to engage with me over any of my stated reads?

In post 107, Porkens wrote:This is a gross misunderstanding or misrepresentation. 43 is not “puffed up,” it is a deep analysis of the mindset behind post 4. There’s nothing extraneous about it; each idea supports the thesis and is needed for ancomplete analysis. Furthermore, I never accused Souk of “puffing up” their posts or called them scummy for “puffing up” posts. I don’t think you are making an honest analysis here.

The implication here is that post 4 is egregious and deserving of an in depth examination, more so than any other interaction at that point. You put an inane amount of effort into a psychological analysis of an RVS post, but have not put anywhere near that amount of effort into anything else in the thread, suggesting a reason for that post in particular to be singled out. Why then, does that post deserve that level of attention? Disproportionate response is 100% puffing up your post.

A note, my actual accusation, the meat of the scumread here, was that Porkens made a whole lot of something out of that post in order to put S&K at E-1 without announcing that it was an E-1 vote. Which... remains true.

In post 162, clidd wrote:Bingle is E-2, is he going to say something ?

Say it with me now... Geriatric. You should probably go read the linked Geriatric rules in the OP, because you seem to completely misunderstand them.

As far as the wagon on me, I'm not particularly worried, nor will it influence the way I play the game.

VOTE: Porkens

@Agar, no, that's not what i mean at all >:/

In post 81, AGar wrote:Reck is looking town in engagement and consistency.

Literally both hydrae can die plz. SKit is are really trying to make something of nothing with Reck after posting a read list that felt feigned and they tried to handwave it away as a joke ex post facto when called on it.

Michael Scott is the worst kind of hydra and this attempt to stay "in character" is going to make me very annoyed throughout this game.
kmd is kmd. Color me surprised.

Porkens is concerning me because of wagonomics but content is middling. I put more stock in wagonomics so Porkens gets binned as slightly scummy for now.

Speaking of wagonomics, I don't like Clidd's vote on kmd positioning/timing wise. Feels like going for the easy angle of kmd's activity. Spoiler alert: KMD is going to have the fewest posts in the game, even in this ruleset, even if he makes it to endgame. 33 was garbage to begin with but looking at a VC just confirms that feeling.

In post 63, Bingle wrote:It served a few purposes. It pointed out the identities of the hydra heads in case Reck actually cared (I assumed he didn't, but it didn't hurt to include that), updated the thread on the fact that I think there are scummy things coming from a slot I was previously explicitly townreading (which then allowed for people to engage me over those things if they so chose, which no one has done yet), and it bumped the thread so the mod could have the pagetop for his VC. I think that the last was clearly the most important of the three.

Yeah so it served no purpose, got it. You basically hemmed and hawed on your one game content situation.

Would happily lynch within {SK,Clidd} right now.

red indicates you're strongly scumreading us, yes? but the way you preanalyse the wagons has us as town, and this is all within the same post. just the fact that it's there means i don't think you're scumreading us as hard as you say you are. gut says you just tmi'd us town + was to also porkens shade

how serious are your reads?

@porkens: fair enuff! i'm also curious about your bingle read, clidd.

p.s: i think you're townie for it, but i kinda can't get over how... all over the place you are with this game, clidd. it feels very uncharacteristic, but then again, i haven't played with you for a while

~kanna

In post 154, Porkens wrote: ------------------------------------------------

In post 144, The Bulge wrote:you've all done something I hate already this game except reck and porkens

I've decided I am going to ignore clidd for the time being

What have you hated about Agar?
Why are you ignoring clidd?
Why are you voting for Bingle?

wait no, not fair enuff. was talking about why you asked the bulge about agar specifically.

is there an easy way to see how much you posted each day? i feelsbad for datisi

~kanna

In post 169, clidd wrote:

Choo. Choo. Motherfuckers.

I literally fucking quoted the post you're referencing you dolt.

What the fuck is this horseshit? This is :badposting: and is super contrived.

I wanna circle back to this because look if you're gonna pull some dumb shit like meta (which I echo Reck's comments about trash), at least don't ask that person to do the heavy lifting for you. For so many fucking reasons.

Michael Scott is the worst kind of hydra and this attempt to stay "in character" is going to make me very annoyed throughout this game.

33 was garbage to begin with but looking at a VC just confirms that feeling.

Hi KMD. It's just an observation. I know your schedule is fucky.

Not sure I can help you see what is bad about the timing and position of Porkens's vote if you don't already see it

This is bad but Kmd's response is also bad. Everything from clidd's outburst can be binned in the "IDGAF about any of this." bin. Anyone trying to argue its indicative of alignment one way or another can catch these hands.

*I* do not give a fuck about clidd's outburst.

Take a look ^

What do you think about these posts ?

Nothing in any of those posts stands out to me as forced. Yes, he uses a lot of choice language and is "aggressive" in his posting, but that might just be how he plays regardless of his alignment.


- Date Mike (Volxen)

@Clidd, I take it you remember Newbie 1986 from February-March of this year, where I was scum and you were town. Here is a link to my ISO in that game as well.

How do you think my play in that game compares to my play in this game?


- Date Mike (Volxen)

In post 167, clidd wrote:Actually, no. If we didn't hit scum today, I'm willing to be eliminated tomorrow.

C'mon buddy, I know that you know that I'm town, Volxen. My pool of townreads is Porkens, Reck, Bulge and you (not sure on SK yet, he's between scum and town, something like null-null).

And the scum pool is Bingle, KMD (less sure), Agar (depending on his next reactions, I can change my mind).

So you are asserting that 1) you think that I'm town and 2) that I "know" that you are town. And yet I've been pushing your slot, so what exactly do you think that I am trying to accomplish with my push on you?


- Date Mike (Volxen)

In post 176, Bingle wrote:

In post 159, The Bulge wrote:Bingle cannot generate content without some kind of mechanical or non-game-related crutch. their only game post was a fresh out of the ass critique of your freudposting that made no sense. Like they saw the post and said "I bet I can find something actionable here"

?

Is this a reference to the fact that I put non game related information into my game related posts, or an accusation that none of my posts are game related? Is there a particular reason that you've chosen not to engage with me over any of my stated reads?

In post 107, Porkens wrote:This is a gross misunderstanding or misrepresentation. 43 is not “puffed up,” it is a deep analysis of the mindset behind post 4. There’s nothing extraneous about it; each idea supports the thesis and is needed for ancomplete analysis. Furthermore, I never accused Souk of “puffing up” their posts or called them scummy for “puffing up” posts. I don’t think you are making an honest analysis here.

The implication here is that post 4 is egregious and deserving of an in depth examination, more so than any other interaction at that point. You put an inane amount of effort into a psychological analysis of an RVS post, but have not put anywhere near that amount of effort into anything else in the thread, suggesting a reason for that post in particular to be singled out. Why then, does that post deserve that level of attention? Disproportionate response is 100% puffing up your post.

A note, my actual accusation, the meat of the scumread here, was that Porkens made a whole lot of something out of that post in order to put S&K at E-1 without announcing that it was an E-1 vote. Which... remains true.

In post 162, clidd wrote:Bingle is E-2, is he going to say something ?

Say it with me now... Geriatric. You should probably go read the linked Geriatric rules in the OP, because you seem to completely misunderstand them.

As far as the wagon on me, I'm not particularly worried, nor will it influence the way I play the game.

VOTE: Porkens

It's discourse analysis and digging in to every word, and combination of word, and the thought process behind the choice of those is how you do it. You can't do it in less than the number of lines that I used. Was it worthwhile? That's arguable. It was the first post in the game, and I decided to make a deep analysis of it. There is inane about analyzing and RVS post. And do you really expect me to do that for every post? That would take an insane amount of time.

The rest I've already explained. Take it or leave it. I don't buy your scum read of me though, and you just look like you are searching for something, anything, to grasp on to attack me.

In post 178, Sou and Kanna wrote:

In post 154, Porkens wrote: ------------------------------------------------

In post 144, The Bulge wrote:you've all done something I hate already this game except reck and porkens

I've decided I am going to ignore clidd for the time being

What have you hated about Agar?
Why are you ignoring clidd?
Why are you voting for Bingle?

wait no, not fair enuff. was talking about why you asked the bulge about agar specifically.

is there an easy way to see how much you posted each day? i feelsbad for datisi

~kanna

No, I was not asking the bulge anything. I quoted his post for context. I was addressing clidd directly.

Been busy.

I *strongly* townread Clidd now. I have a vague recollection that his conviction feels awkward as scum, and I do actually agree with a number of his posts. I think KMD/Agar are fine eliminations.

-Jimothy

In post 182, Porkens wrote:It was the first post in the game, and I decided to make a deep analysis of it. There is nothing inane about analyzing and RVS post. And do you really expect me to do that for every post? That would take an insane amount of time.

The rest I've already explained.

Yes, but why that post at that time? There was already content in the thread when you made your 'deep analysis'. You had already entered the thread with your 'from the future post' so I thoroughly doubt it was a gimmick decided upon pregame. There was real content to engage with (reads I expressed 15, Kanna attempting to engage me in 19, my lack of response to that, Datisi's joke readlist in 23, MS's response to the 'townread' in 24, bugspray's 27... you get my point.) Instead, you go after the first post in the game, from a player who already has a wagon built on them for a bad reason when you could be going after points that have more immediate relevance. There is clear scum motivation there.

You explained the rest (here: the majority of the issue with your posting) in

In post 116, Porkens wrote:Complete transparency I did not look at the vote count or count votes before I posted with my vote. However, after I made that post, I read the rest of the thread and saw that I had put Souk at e-1. I considered taking it down, but then decided just to leave it and see what came of it.

as little more than an aside several posts after your initial defense. Which tells me that you wanted to paint the accusation as being more about the tone and context of the original than about the real scum motivation present. I am aware of that defense, and also find it wholly unsatisfying. I'm also not here to convince you you're scum, but to convince everyone else of my PoV.

I would be interested in your analysis of the votes on my wagon and the fact that they seem to be entirely different to your own as an attempt to further my read on you, if you are indeed town. I'm also interested in hearing why you haven't voted me if you think I'm scum.


I intend to respond to Kanna's 19 later today, but I'm too busy to do so at the moment. If anyone else has something they'd like a response to, let me know and I'll address it then as well.

In post 178, Sou and Kanna wrote:is there an easy way to see how much you posted each day?

The easiest way AFAIK is to look at the timestamps of your ISO and subtract number of the earliest post from the current period from the most recent post. If you just avoid multiposting by responding to multiple things at once and editing your posts, it should be easier to avoid as a problem, though.

Yes, but why that post at that time? There was already content in the thread when you made your 'deep analysis'. You had already entered the thread with your 'from the future post' so I thoroughly doubt it was a gimmick decided upon pregame. There was real content to engage with (reads I expressed 15, Kanna attempting to engage me in 19, my lack of response to that, Datisi's joke readlist in 23, MS's response to the 'townread' in 24, bugspray's 27... you get my point.) Instead, you go after the first post in the game, from a player who already has a wagon built on them for a bad reason when you could be going after points that have more immediate relevance. There is clear scum motivation there.

I concede that I did not make myself aware of the entire gamestate by my second post. I sat down to read the game, had an itch about post 4, and decided to fully scratch it before I read on. You can chose to believe that or not.

You explained the rest (here: the majority of the issue with your posting) in

In post 116, Porkens wrote:Complete transparency I did not look at the vote count or count votes before I posted with my vote. However, after I made that post, I read the rest of the thread and saw that I had put Souk at e-1. I considered taking it down, but then decided just to leave it and see what came of it.

as little more than an aside several posts after your initial defense. Which tells me that you wanted to paint the accusation as being more about the tone and context of the original than about the real scum motivation present. I am aware of that defense, and also find it wholly unsatisfying. I'm also not here to convince you you're scum, but to convince everyone else of my PoV.

I would be interested in your analysis of the votes on my wagon and the fact that they seem to be entirely different to your own as an attempt to further my read on you, if you are indeed town. I'm also interested in hearing why you haven't voted me if you think I'm scum.

Look at my readslist. My two strongest scumreads are voting for my least strongest scumread. Im mulling whether I think bulge’s reasoning is satisfying or not, and clidd’s hopon to your wagon was scummy, which I’ve explained. So no, I’m not comfortable going on to your wagon at the moment.

Agar wrote: Kmd's response is also bad

Why? Do you agree with clidd that I should be scum reading him for meta when I did nothing to read his play in that game?

I'm breezing past 173 because I really don't fucking get what's so hard to read and I'm not burning any more time on it other than a tacit acknowledgment that I saw it so we don't have to waste time on it when someone inevitably asks "AGar plz answer 173."

Re, 177: Behaviorally I do not like your posting, have found several pieces to be contrived and needlessly dragging out inane bullshit in a manner that isn't conducive to moving the game state forward - like you're doing here where you continue to circle back to a Page 7 comment and ask me to explain the same thing multiple different ways like you're probing it from different angles when you're just using new words to get to the same point - and generally not beneficial to town. I also, simultaneously, acknowledge that mathematically I'm more likely to be wrong and any wagon that reaches Y-1 that quickly, even in a game specifically designed to not be a spam fest, is one to give me pause, and it's not like I've found Porkens to be a bastion of pro-town energy. Consider it an {a OR b} dichotomy with a small acknowledgement that it could be a bus but it would be a real shitty bus. My reads are as serious as they should be right now.

Re, 186: clidd's premise in 97 is super flawed on its surface. But the response of "Oh lol I didn't even read you that game it was because of your predecessor so your premise is bad," is a bad engagement of the premise.

I'm coming around on Bingle, and find Bulge's mindset pretty reasonable. Can't get a handle on MS but they seem to be out of the "acting in character" self-imposed post restriction so that at least seems cool and maybe I can get a better feel for them.

Would gladly yeet {Clidd/SK/kmd} in no particular order.
Would not yeet {Reck/Bingle/Bulge}
{Porkens/MS} are whatever right now.

VC 1.4

Bingle

(3): Kmd4930 7, The Bulge 145, clidd 152

Sou and Kanna

(2): AGar 26, xReckonerx 31

clidd

(2): Michael Scott 5, Porkens 88

The Bulge

(1): Sou and Kanna 41

Porkens

(1): Bingle 176

Not Voting

(0):

Nobody!

Mod Notes:

Porkens has used 1/20 Reserve Posts
clidd has used 19/20 Reserve Posts
Just a reminder that Post Counts reset at 8:30pm EST for this phase and that your Reserve Posts are a game-long reserve.

Kmd, why has your vote remained parked on bingle as bingle's wagon begins to burgeon?

My power keeps going out randomly (5 times in the last ten minutes) because of the thunderstorm outside. As such I will likely not be typing up any large content posts tonight. My apologies. If the storm settles I will return.

In post 189, AGar wrote:Kmd, why has your vote remained parked on bingle as bingle's wagon begins to burgeon?

Bingle is my preferred elimination at this time.

In post 177, Sou and Kanna wrote:@Agar, no, that's not what i mean at all >:/

In post 81, AGar wrote:Reck is looking town in engagement and consistency.

Literally both hydrae can die plz. SKit is are really trying to make something of nothing with Reck after posting a read list that felt feigned and they tried to handwave it away as a joke ex post facto when called on it.

Michael Scott is the worst kind of hydra and this attempt to stay "in character" is going to make me very annoyed throughout this game.
kmd is kmd. Color me surprised.

Porkens is concerning me because of wagonomics but content is middling. I put more stock in wagonomics so Porkens gets binned as slightly scummy for now.

Speaking of wagonomics, I don't like Clidd's vote on kmd positioning/timing wise. Feels like going for the easy angle of kmd's activity. Spoiler alert: KMD is going to have the fewest posts in the game, even in this ruleset, even if he makes it to endgame. 33 was garbage to begin with but looking at a VC just confirms that feeling.

In post 63, Bingle wrote:It served a few purposes. It pointed out the identities of the hydra heads in case Reck actually cared (I assumed he didn't, but it didn't hurt to include that), updated the thread on the fact that I think there are scummy things coming from a slot I was previously explicitly townreading (which then allowed for people to engage me over those things if they so chose, which no one has done yet), and it bumped the thread so the mod could have the pagetop for his VC. I think that the last was clearly the most important of the three.

Yeah so it served no purpose, got it. You basically hemmed and hawed on your one game content situation.

Would happily lynch within {SK,Clidd} right now.

red indicates you're strongly scumreading us, yes? but the way you preanalyse the wagons has us as town, and this is all within the same post. just the fact that it's there means i don't think you're scumreading us as hard as you say you are. gut says you just tmi'd us town + was to also porkens shade

how serious are your reads?

@porkens: fair enuff! i'm also curious about your bingle read, clidd.

p.s: i think you're townie for it, but i kinda can't get over how... all over the place you are with this game, clidd. it feels very uncharacteristic, but then again, i haven't played with you for a while

~kanna

If I'm understanding this correctly -- based on the way that you color-coded Agar's post -- you are saying that the red portions of his post contradict what he said in the green portion of his post. Namely, the fact that he simultaneously had you, Clidd, and Porkens all as scumreads at the same time. I assume you are referring to the fact that Porkens put you up to E-1. But how are you getting "Agar just TMI'd us as town" from all of this? He made it clear in that post that his primary scumreads were you and Clidd, but he was also somewhat suspicious of Porkens for putting you up to E-1. Why can't he find both you and Porkens to both be individually scummy at the same time? I would also argue that the fact that Porkens put you up to E-1 does not by any means rule out the possibility of a SK/Porkens scumteam. If you and Porkens are scum together, it's very unlikely that a townie would follow up Porken's E-1 vote on you with a quickhammer. So I don't see this as Agar taking contradictory stances within the same post, and I think that you are reaching by trying to insinuate that he TMI'd your slot as town.


- Date Mike (Volxen)

In post 191, Kmd4390 wrote:

In post 189, AGar wrote:Kmd, why has your vote remained parked on bingle as bingle's wagon begins to burgeon?

Bingle is my preferred elimination at this time.

I would love it if you elaborated on that or gave anything resembling a reason.

@Agar/MS; thanks, I liked that explanation. that is fair. fwiw, what i meant by "he tmi'd us town" is just me skipping steps that i think this inconsistency means this read is faked/he is scum if he is faking reads.

i'll check in tomorrow, cya all o7

~kanna

In post 176, Bingle wrote:

In post 159, The Bulge wrote:Bingle cannot generate content without some kind of mechanical or non-game-related crutch. their only game post was a fresh out of the ass critique of your freudposting that made no sense. Like they saw the post and said "I bet I can find something actionable here"

?

Is this a reference to the fact that I put non game related information into my game related posts, or an accusation that none of my posts are game related? Is there a particular reason that you've chosen not to engage with me over any of my stated reads?

Besides 94, can you point me to any instances in your iso of substantive commentary or attempts to advance the game/your reads? (If you want a 'par for the course', I found 2 lines) While you're at it, maybe an instance of me choosing to not engage with you?

In post 107, Porkens wrote:This is a gross misunderstanding or misrepresentation. 43 is not “puffed up,” it is a deep analysis of the mindset behind post 4. There’s nothing extraneous about it; each idea supports the thesis and is needed for ancomplete analysis. Furthermore, I never accused Souk of “puffing up” their posts or called them scummy for “puffing up” posts. I don’t think you are making an honest analysis here.

The implication here is that post 4 is egregious and deserving of an in depth examination, more so than any other interaction at that point. You put an inane amount of effort into a psychological analysis of an RVS post, but have not put anywhere near that amount of effort into anything else in the thread, suggesting a reason for that post in particular to be singled out. Why then, does that post deserve that level of attention? Disproportionate response is 100% puffing up your post.

A note, my actual accusation, the meat of the scumread here, was that Porkens made a whole lot of something out of that post in order to put S&K at E-1 without announcing that it was an E-1 vote. Which... remains true.

In post 162, clidd wrote:Bingle is E-2, is he going to say something ?

Say it with me now... Geriatric. You should probably go read the linked Geriatric rules in the OP, because you seem to completely misunderstand them.

As far as the wagon on me, I'm not particularly worried, nor will it influence the way I play the game.

VOTE: Porkens

how difficult is it, do you think, to come up with a post like that? do you imagine porkens toiled very long over it?

i left the last part of the quote in for posterity

In post 194, Sou and Kanna wrote:@Agar/MS; thanks, I liked that explanation. that is fair. fwiw, what i meant by "he tmi'd us town" is just me skipping steps that i think this inconsistency means this read is faked/he is scum if he is faking reads.

i'll check in tomorrow, cya all o7

~kanna

So in other words, your stance remains that it is unlikely that town!Agar could simultaneously scumread both you and Porkens since Porkens put you up to E-1. I think this is a very weak reason to go so far as to say that Agar was TMI'ng you as town, but OK. In that case, why are you still voting for the Bugspray/Bulge slot instead of Agar? You seem to have a very strong scumread of Agar, but you have left your vote on Bugspray/Bulge for several days and haven't engaged with Bulge at all. Is the Bugspray/Bulge slot still your strongest scumread despite your stance towards Agar?


VOTE: Sou and Kanna

E-2.


- Date Mike (Volxen)

In post 19, Sou and Kanna wrote:

In post 15, Bingle wrote:I believe Agar and Porkens to be slightly more likely to be town than the rest of you.

why is this? i wanna say i agree with Porkens, but i don't see Agar at all

~kanna

As of 19, Porkens had the best entrance to the thread by far (his entrance was strange enough that it looked like an attempt to start a discussion, and it was far removed from anything I've seen from scum Porkens). That has since changed, as discussed.

Agar, similarly poked reck and Porkens with his first post. Not knowing him personally, I'd assume he'd be at least slightly hesitant to poke what looked to be the two most active slots at that time in the thread. This read has strengthened since then, but I'll admit that I haven't been closely examining his posting recently.

In post 185, Porkens wrote:

snip

Look at my readslist. My two strongest scumreads are voting for my least strongest scumread. Im mulling whether I think bulge’s reasoning is satisfying or not, and clidd’s hopon to your wagon was scummy, which I’ve explained. So no, I’m not comfortable going on to your wagon at the moment.

Fair enough.

In post 195, The Bulge wrote:Besides 94, can you point me to any instances in your iso of substantive commentary or attempts to advance the game/your reads? (If you want a 'par for the course', I found 2 lines) While you're at it, maybe an instance of me choosing to not engage with you?

snip

how difficult is it, do you think, to come up with a post like that? do you imagine porkens toiled very long over it?

I'll include a spoiler of what I consider to be game content from me compared to what I consider to not be game content from me, but my point isn't that I've been insanely active and solvey. My point is that while I have done some mechanical speculation (it's kinda my thing) it's not the majority of what I've done nor am I hiding behind it. I'm also unsure how to quote you not doing something. I don't think either of us engaged the other, (until just now, when we're engaging with each other) and am curious as to why you chose not to if you were specifically scumreading me instead of just voting me. If you're asking about things you could have engaged me over, my stated reads would have been the obvious place to start.

As far as Porken's post, I suspect changing the formatting to be more Sherlock-esque took more effort than making the post in the first place and he's exaggerating how much effort he put into it. If I'm wrong, I still find it difficult to swallow that he chose to put that effort in on an RVS before reading the rest of the thread to see if there was something more worthy of his time to analyse.




I stopped at post 94, as admittedly my content ratio has drastically risen since then (and including my more recent posts would be largely irrelevant to this topic). The only post that is missing is my entry to the thread which was a naked vote and a mechanical clarification for the setup.


@MS: S&K is the wrong tree for today. What are your thoughts on the rest of the thread?

In post 197, Michael Scott wrote:So in other words, your stance remains that it is unlikely that town!Agar could simultaneously scumread both you and Porkens since Porkens put you up to E-1.

not at all. after i read agar/your posts, i changed my mind. i said it was fair. i reexplained because you said this

In post 192, Michael Scott wrote:But how are you getting "Agar just TMI'd us as town" from all of this?

suggesting you didn't understand my push.

re bugs/bulge if you still want it: i still think they're a fine scumread placeholder. bugs has a decent chance of being scum and i'm watching their replacement, but they haven't done anything to amaze me.

@bingle: i did not read your post. i am sorry and will do that later today. but i'm wondering - why did you tr us originally?

~kanny