Newbie 2045: A Midwinter Night's Dream - End!

[Mikul]

Because it didn't go anywhere, and the attempts made do not fit the mold to say. Pressure is not one vote and one instance of saying 'vote on boys, this is scum'. It's a conscious effort and requires a bit more finesse.

I think there are levels of pressure. What molla aimed at peta is a bit of pressure. At least I read it as that. It's basically saying. Stop being passive and commit.

There is also wagon pressure. When I said I was voting molla for omgus, that wasn't wagon pressure but it was to try to spark a response from him. I guess we differ with how we see that. I see him throwing votes on people to get them to do something or say something he can read.

[Mikul]

@peta. It depends. Not giving reads could look bad to experienced players or people that are familiar with mafia. If you hedge doing that with "I want to ask players and show them how to develop reads" , it doesn't look scummy. It looks like your playing to the goal of a begginer game (to noobs at least). You are being townread for this by some of them if I recall.

That

1) can be genuine and you are town wanting to help
2) can be malicious and scum distancing himself from being committal. The less you commit, the less there is to look back on as flips happen.

---

Re: the second part

I generally like this response as I agree with it. The more you interact with and play with people, the harder it is to read them for a variety of reasons. Specifically because (as you said) you start to realize layers of personality and playstyle

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 1-6

Shakespeare sure had a thing about dreams. In

Julius Caesar

, his wife, Capurnia had a prophetic dream the night before he was assassinated in the Senate. She cried out three times in her sleep about his murder, then woke up and told him about a dream of a statue with blood pouring out from all sides. Deceius, one of the conspirators, had to quickly come up with a false interpretation of the dream to prevent Caesar from changing his plans to visit the Senate.

Lunar Martian

(2): Illwei, petapan

BBmolla

(2): unwnd, Lunar Martian

unwnd

(1): safebet222

safebet222

(1): BBmolla

quiet

(1): Mikul

Not Voting

(2): Mr Turtle, quiet

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Deadline: December 27, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2020-12-27 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[unwnd]

I can see why you believe that. I appreciate your perspective and am in consideration of it. I believe that reads are not something that are permanent and my thoughts may change depending on what happens over the course of the game. That's why I think there is no harm with just saying what you feel. I've played by this but experience over time has allowed me to develop restraint.

[Mikul]

There is a huge dichotomy between you and unwnd as ringers.

You are passive and mostly non committal
Uwnd is more direct and very committal

Both can be used effectively as scum. One to slide by, and in unwdns case, being confident enough to lead town down whatever path he wants to go on.

This is mostly thinking out loud but I'm really looking for distancing and people who seem to be ignoring each other. While vet players won't make that mistake. New players tend to avoid their scum partner as much as possible instead of putting on scum theatre.

[Mikul]

I can see why you believe that. I appreciate your perspective and am in consideration of it. I believe that reads are not something that are permanent and my thoughts may change depending on what happens over the course of the game. That's why I think there is no harm with just saying what you feel. I've played by this but experience over time has allowed me to develop restraint.

Don't get me wrong I actually appreciate the length you go to justify your rationale. While we may disagree about mollas intent, the point you are making is largely correct in my mind. I just do my best to understand the motivation behind posts and the intent by which they are written.

To me that's the easiest way to catch scum. Granted my read on molla assumes that he is actually engaging in reaction tests. I tend to think reaction tests can come off as scummy more often than they appear town but on balance, most people that engage in them are town.

[unwnd]

This is mostly thinking out loud but I'm really looking for distancing and people who seem to be ignoring each other. While vet players won't make that mistake. New players tend to avoid their scum partner as much as possible instead of putting on scum theatre.

I like your approach here. Even outside of newbie games, I apply the same thought process. There's always the ambiguous middle. My early reads actually dictate this where I like to pressure people who are openly giving content and then assessing the room's reaction from there.

I just do my best to understand the motivation behind posts and the intent by which they are written.

Unrelated, This is literally my favorite part of Mafia and what keeps me from coming back. The puzzle aspect.

[Mikul]

I guess the tldr version of all of that is. While it's kind of toddler abuse. It's easier to pick on new players than go after ringers because more often than not, they are the ones to mess up

While it's not satisfying, it's usually more accurate

[quiet]

This is still fishing for empathy. Everything about quiet still bothers me.

Eh, fair, that does really look like that, doesn't it? It seems like empathy plays made to try to gain empathy would be strictly -EV though as scum, seeing as people are inherently suspicious of them.

The new quiet vote bothers me because it still comes off as sheeping unwn

You lost me here. I haven't placed a new vote? Just unvoted who unwnd still is voting for reasons I gave a couple times. Are you talking about originally voting BB?

Okay caught up. Peta also just did a 180 after a little pressure. That also sticks out to me

Also didn't get this read, but liked the back and forth between Peta + Mikul afterwords.

Still unfortunately think Mikul is pretty towny.

On the topic of pressure, let's turn it up a bit on...Lunar. E-2 has the added bonus of putting pressure on everyone else, too.
I considered safebet222, but they are away. Don't see myself voting for peta, Illwei, or Mikul day1.
VOTE: Lunar Martian

[Mikul]

I'm way more tame than I normally am. When I'm familiar with people I'm quite elaborate and also borderline impossible to play with. I will go all in on reaction tests. I've dialed it in a bit because this is a begginer series and

1) I want to shake off rust
2) I don't want to run people off the site

But I think trying to gun down ringers who it is hard to get a handle on is probably a bad way to go about this as most noobs will just tense up and completely avoid their scum partner. So staring at voting patterns and distancing is often the easiest way to catch someone out dp1.

Also contradictions in their reads and how they back peddle with pressure which you pointed out already


That's why I find you and peta so interesting

It's pillar opposite play styles.

Peta is very passive.
You are very aggressive

And as I mentioned. Both can be a deadly toll when used properly. Passive allows you to let town just kill themselves and you only chime in when needed. Aggressive allows you to be townread by everyone and lead the game.

And both of you have the experience to do that.

In addition to an iso of quiet and luna

If I can find the time, I'd like to iso you and him in past games in begginer series.

[unwnd]

#181 is syntax error. I meant to say favorite part of mafia and what KEEPS me coming back.

[quiet]

Also hi Mr. Turtle, what is going on in your life? Am very excited for a (sort of kind of) 3rd party opinion on everything that's gone down so far. I'll be eagerly and patiently waiting .

In my headcannon, you are going to move very slowly through this game, then solve it completely on like day 3. Slow and steady wins the race and all that.

[Mikul]

@ quiet

The reason I'm so dialed in you is because I have a firm belief that mafia often utilize empathy as a strategy to be townread. I had a friend that did this in mafia worlds and was notorious for it. Someone scum read him and he won't in this long post about why he wasn't scum because as scum this is something he liked to employ (drawing empathy). And at the end of this 5 paragraph rant, he posted "sorry guys my gf is sick. Logging off to take care of her".

(He was scum and made the last mark to throw people off )

After watching that I have kept a really strong eye on his theory and how he played. Because it's often turned out to be true. When people throwing around this like.

Yeah your right I'm new
O this is my bad I'm awkard
Etc.

Alot of the time it's scum trying to buy town cred. It can also be new players but I have caught scum quite a bit after reading that theory

[Mikul]

@

Quiet

[quote

]Also hi Mr. Turtle, what is going on in your life?

Am very excited for a (sort of kind of) 3rd party opinion on everything that's gone down so far. I'll be eagerly and patiently waiting .[/quote]


Stuff like that is what I'm taking about lol.

[Mikul]

Also forgive typos. On my phone during the day. So they will be frequent

[quiet]

Alot of the time it's scum trying to buy town cred. It can also be new players but I have caught scum quite a bit

Break down the odds for me. How likely do you think I'm scum vs. I'm new. Do you think I'm new? I recognize new + scum aren't mutually exclusive. If you think I'm new, do you think this is how I play scum?

I'm here to have fun. Solving games are fun. I also think that doing bits about sheeping the experienced one and welcoming the slow to post mr. turtle are also fun, at least day1. Do you think I should remove that from my playstyle?

[Mikul]

Break down the odds for me. How likely do you think I'm scum vs. I'm new. Do you think I'm new? I recognize new + scum aren't mutually exclusive. If you think I'm new, do you think this is how I play scum?

I'm here to have fun. Solving games are fun. I also think that doing bits about sheeping the experienced one and welcoming the slow to post mr. turtle are also fun, at least day1. Do you think I should remove that from my playstyle?

I have played in very few beginner games over my time playing mafia so it's really hard for me to say. I can acknowledge that doing the empathy thing can both be a new player trying to break into the game and being nervous. As I mentioned is more high end games, it's almost always scum. At least in my experience it's very ai. It's like a more hard form of buddying


1) yes I think you are very new. Like a few months at most new
2) sheeping isn't what makes you scummy per say , it's that coupled onto the fact that Initially the sheep was in jest. On too of other things.

A) over justifying votes on rvs
B) being extremely wishy washy with your votes
C) being defensive about your votes.
D) Somewhat trying to buddy players and explain these choices away by being awkard or being new, etc.

Its not just one thing that makes you scummy. It's how you approached the dp in general. This may be "hedging" my statement but it's the truth. A new player can also do this out of nervousness and not be scum. As I've mentioned. With you it's continual though and it really sticks out to me. I'll have to iso this fully to read it properly tonight. So no don't stop sheeping , it can be a good reaction test. Also do you. You will adjust your playstyle as you get comfortable with it. I just read this as emotional bargeing. That doesn't mean I'm right nor does anyone seem to agree. That just sticks out to me personally and it's hard for me to drop.

3) I'd put you 60 / 40 (scum v town )

4) I think if you are as new as I think. You absolutely play this way as scum. You would be nervous and over justifying everything. Which you seem to have did quite a bit. I think this is possible if you are town but less likely than if you were scum. As town you would know you are town and be less worried about pressure and not moving your votes around over justifying them.

Imo

[petapan]

If I can find the time, I'd like to iso you and him in past games in begginer series.

you won't have much luck, i'm afraid - as said before, i previously avoided playing in newbie games because i didn't think my style was suited to them. i played in one earlier this year, but it's a very bad reference - i replaced into a scum slot during the night phase, and was immediately guiltied by the tracker the next day. having nothing to lose, i counter claimed him and went way over the top in attacking him, probably went a bit further than i should have. i still got eliminated, but created enough noise that my partner was able to avoid suspicion and win the game. that was a highly specific circumstance, and so i wouldn't be acting like that again regardless of my alignment. appreciate the desire to investigate, though.

[Mikul]

Totally off topic. Did the same thing in my first game on the site when "not mafia" was tracker. He was such a troll they believed me lol. That was a good time.

Also not mafia is a perfect example of why you can't read metas sometimes.

[quiet]

Newbie 2008? I read that game! Was pretty informative, actually. Very very different to how this game is going.

[Mikul]

Newbie 2008? I read that game! Was pretty informative, actually. Very very different to how this game is going.

I forget the name of it. But that was a pretty fun one. If you ever want a reason to not trust meta analysis. Not mafia is the embodiment of that reason.

[quiet]

Their name being not mafia might have been a clue that meta analysis wouldn't work on them. Or maybe it was the size 60 giant red TRACKER claims. hard to say.

[Mikul]

Yeah game was a meme. Was good times though. We were laughing pretty hard when I managed to flip that lynch on him.

[safebet222]

Lunar - Lunar has been pretty awkward and I tend to see that as newbtown...

why's awkwardness a newbie town-tell for you, exactly? why can't it come from scum as well?

I don't think it can come exclusively from newbtown, I think it tends to... I think newbscum tend to be reluctant to show awkwardness in an over-abundance of caution. Like everything else in Mafia, its player dependent and Lunar has been a bit lurky so I revert to default.

[safebet222]

I think those three are town because I can walk through their thought process and follow it. It makes sense and it feels like its coming from the same perspective as me. Is that wrong?

For me, it is a false tell, or at least it hasn't served me very well in the games I've played. Scum are just as capable of producing logical arguments.