Mafiascum.net

marcistar wrote:has anyone played with pavoski before, does he usually play in this laid back style?

I know you asked about me and didn't necessarily ask me directly, but seeing as things have quieted down a little bit today:

Early reads for me are based on not much and rely on parsing language for things that might or might not even be there (see the entirety of Luke/Val).

For now we're just jousting back and forth about innuendos and assumptions. (Which I guess some people put a lot of stock in, but I am skeptical how useful it is.)

Basically I'm still getting a feel for the people I don't know, and trying to separate out the meta from the ones I do. Any read I have would have a degree of confidence so low as to hardly bear mentioning.

In post 175, Pavowski wrote:Early reads for me are based on not much and rely on parsing language for things that might or might not even be there (see the entirety of Luke/Val).

For now we're just jousting back and forth about innuendos and assumptions. (Which I guess some people put a lot of stock in, but I am skeptical how useful it is.)

Basically I'm still getting a feel for the people I don't know, and trying to separate out the meta from the ones I do. Any read I have would have a degree of confidence so low as to hardly bear mentioning.

I understand this mind set, but when people take this approach to a game day 1, it results in an inactive game, and thus takes longer for the game to get to the point where you are comfortable with your reads.

I general, I find it more beneficial for players to be a bit fast and loose with their reads for the first half of Day 1. "This seems town" and "this seems scummy" for things that are not enough for a town or scum read in ELo -- players are voicing opinions, and people can ask themselves if those opinions make sense, and it can all be looked back on later.

Some thing that I have seen in our other game together (and I would say that I have seen this from town marci as well) is that you appear to hang back until you are sure of reads

This does a few things:
--active scum can take control of the direction of the thread, because cautious townies are not trying to lead (see me orchestrating a miselim on Strange Day 1 in our previous game)
--you can get scum read by the town for not scum hunting (see Marci getting scum read in our last game)
--the scum ream can make a case against you stating that you are lurking (see me making a case against you in our previous game)

In post 177, ArcAngel9 wrote:Not Voting : Val89, marcistar, Pavowski, Lukewarm, Zyla

oop

VOTE: Portia

In post 178, Lukewarm wrote: oop

VOTE: Portia

Is that vote supposed to indicate you are scumreading Portia, Lukewarm?

In post 176, Lukewarm wrote:

In post 175, Pavowski wrote:Early reads for me are based on not much and rely on parsing language for things that might or might not even be there (see the entirety of Luke/Val).

For now we're just jousting back and forth about innuendos and assumptions. (Which I guess some people put a lot of stock in, but I am skeptical how useful it is.)

Basically I'm still getting a feel for the people I don't know, and trying to separate out the meta from the ones I do. Any read I have would have a degree of confidence so low as to hardly bear mentioning.

I understand this mind set, but when people take this approach to a game day 1, it results in an inactive game, and thus takes longer for the game to get to the point where you are comfortable with your reads.

I general, I find it more beneficial for players to be a bit fast and loose with their reads for the first half of Day 1. "This seems town" and "this seems scummy" for things that are not enough for a town or scum read in ELo -- players are voicing opinions, and people can ask themselves if those opinions make sense, and it can all be looked back on later.

Some thing that I have seen in our other game together (and I would say that I have seen this from town marci as well) is that you appear to hang back until you are sure of reads

I mean I agree with you in general, but I've tried to flag a few things that strike me about some players: (119, 122, 161). And this thread has been anything but *inactive*

Thing is, I'm not ready to do a deep dive on why player x is scummy or player y is towny at this point. That's not me hanging back until I'm *sure* of reads; I'll never get to that point. But I do like to have at least a basis for a read to go along with a gut feeling. Otherwise I'm flooding the thread with garbage I then have to walk back later on.

And, again, we're still early d1!

This does a few things:
--active scum can take control of the direction of the thread, because cautious townies are not trying to lead (see me orchestrating a miselim on Strange Day 1 in our previous game)
--you can get scum read by the town for not scum hunting (see Marci getting scum read in our last game)
--the scum ream can make a case against you stating that you are lurking (see me making a case against you in our previous game)

These are interesting points for you to make.

In post 179, Val89 wrote:

In post 178, Lukewarm wrote: oop

VOTE: Portia

Is that vote supposed to indicate you are scumreading Portia, Lukewarm?

It indicates that I have directed questions for Portia that I would like answered -- and I believe that those answers might be Alignment Indicative. So, will keep you updated

@Pav -- spoilered, because I feel like the discussion is entering like a "mafia theory" territory

VOTE: Lukewarm

I unvoted because people seemed confused as to wether or not I seriously thought Not Mafia should be limmed, but I didn't put my vote back on to anyone because I didn't really have a scumlean on anyone at that point.

Now I do. It's not a strong lean, but it's good enough for a early-D1 first serious vote.

^^Nice, a scum claim

In post 182, Lukewarm wrote:@Pav -- spoilered, because I feel like the discussion is entering like a "mafia theory" territory

Spoiler:

In post 180, Pavowski wrote: This thread has been anything but *inactive*
--------
These are interesting points for you to make.

If you removed the me v Val 1v1, there is a lot less going on -- and now that I have taken a step back from that, and it feels like no one else stepping forward to push us in a new direction.

I am trying to get other people to make pushes / apply pressure / ect -- on our last vote count over half the lobby was not voting for anyone (5/9), and of the votes that were out there, no one has more then 1 vote on them. So, no one is currently under pressure any pressure what so ever.

As it stands, I am left feeling like I could singlehandedly take full control of this thread -- which, if I were scum, would not be a good thing

I think that that is the single biggest difference I have found playing in Newbie Games vs other games. The majority of the lobby is playing a bit cautiously, as opposed to half the lobby loudly scum hunting, all pulling the discussion in various directions, so then the lobby can look at each direction and compare for themselves -- and decide which is the best option

You *have* taken control of the thread, though, for better or for worse.

Are you saying other games are better? I mean I guess newbie games are newbie games for a reason but you seem to be saying that cautious play is a bad thing and, well, maybe I just don't understand the ethos of this site but I'm not sure I agree. I like the pace of this game so far. I can actually follow it.

Anyway, I'll take a step further to say I think your tunnel on Val is misguided and your intent to continue it is scummy, and I now think there's scum on one side or the other of that little blow-up where I didn't originally.

I think Zyla is hanging back where she doesn't normally seem to, which is not a great look.

And while I think Portia maybe doesn't have the greatest manner (I'm still scratching my head over 166) he feels towny to me.

These are leans and gut reads and nothing more. But I agree with you, there are people I want to hear more from in this thread.

In post 185, Pavowski wrote: Anyway, I'll take a step further to say I think your tunnel on Val is misguided and your intent to continue it is scummy, and I now think there's scum on one side or the other of that little blow-up where I didn't originally.

I think Zyla is hanging back where she doesn't normally seem to, which is not a great look.

And while I think Portia maybe doesn't have the greatest manner (I'm still scratching my head over 166) he feels towny to me.

These are leans and gut reads and nothing more. But I agree with you, there are people I want to hear more from in this thread.

- My "intent to continue is scummy" -- can you explain that better? I have dropped it, and am currently looking in other directions -- my stated intent is to come back to it in a few days, and determine if I still think it is the scummiest thing I have seen Day 1. Do you think it would be less scummy for me to decide to just call Val town? Or to have kept pushing it without looking at other people?

- I also noticed this, and was keeping my eye on it. I looked back at our last game, and she seemed surprised herself that she found something to latch on to early -- have you played any other games with her?

-What feels townie coming from Portia? Any posts stand out?

In post 184, Lukewarm wrote:^^Nice, a scum claim

hows voting you a scumclaim from val o-o

In post 187, marcistar wrote:

In post 184, Lukewarm wrote:^^Nice, a scum claim

hows voting you a scumclaim from val o-o

It supports the leading reason why I am scum reading him right now -- But I am actively avoiding digging back into scum casing Val for a couple days

In post 186, Lukewarm wrote:
- My "intent to continue is scummy" -- can you explain that better? I have dropped it, and am currently looking in other directions -- my stated intent is to come back to it in a few days, and determine if I still think it is the scummiest thing I have seen Day 1. Do you think it would be less scummy for me to decide to just call Val town? Or to have kept pushing it without looking at other people?

- I also noticed this, and was keeping my eye on it. I looked back at our last game, and she seemed surprised herself that she found something to latch on to early -- have you played any other games with her?

-What feels townie coming from Portia? Any posts stand out?

1 -- your intent to continue signals to me that you've basically made your mind up on this one, and yeah, I think it's early for that. I'm not saying you could've or should've played it any other way, that ship has sailed.

2 -- The only games I have with her are the games the three of us were in, plus an ongoing normal we won't talk about. She feels less proactive this game. I don't love meta, though, as people can (and should) adjust their meta.

3 -- Nothing concrete, maybe it's just a similarity in playstyle with myself. As I mentioned I don't love the tone of how he jumped on you in 166, but I don't really see that coming from scum.

In post 189, Pavowski wrote:1 -- your intent to continue signals to me that you've basically made your mind up on this one, and yeah, I think it's early for that. I'm not saying you could've or should've played it any other way, that ship has sailed.

The reason I followed up on your first post was because you did not say "it is too early" you said it is "scummy"

Do you think scum!me would be more likely to make that play then town!me? And why?

- I think town. 111, 113, 168 seems like hes genuinely trying to solve in his own sorta way.

- null. i'm not quite sure about anything from them, from what they've posted nothing really seems scummy.. but the playstyle here just like is kinda offputting (he isnt the most active, and isnt contributing as much as i would like)

- null (town lean). i og liked alstroemerial alot, but now im just confused i see what luke was saying about it just being mostly general comments.

- null (scum lean). im not really sure how zyla usually plays but it doesnt seem like shes making much pushes or giving many reads.

- null (? maybe a slight scum lean). lukes been prob the most active, but in general it just hasn't really been giving me good vibes.. im not sure why but nothing hes doing seems really town.
im not sure how luke plays as scum, i havent been in a game with him as scum yet, i hope yall can enlighten me and tell me if my reads just dumb.

- town. i still think based on the game he linked way earlier his just general vibes fit with that really well.

- null

- null

VOTE: zyla

i think based on how luke has alot more content for us to judge on i would be most comfortable with this vote right now ^.
im not too confident in these reads but its what im feeling rn <3

In post 190, Lukewarm wrote:

In post 189, Pavowski wrote:1 -- your intent to continue signals to me that you've basically made your mind up on this one, and yeah, I think it's early for that. I'm not saying you could've or should've played it any other way, that ship has sailed.

The reason I followed up on your first post was because you did not say "it is too early" you said it is "scummy"

Do you think scum!me would be more likely to make that play then town!me? And why?

See, this is what I mean about parsing words that don't necessarily mean anything. Yes, in my opinion it's too early to make up your mind about any particular player. Yes, I think it's scummy that you're tunneling *so hard* on Val and signaling intent to continue doing so. Those things are not exclusive; they are linked.

I think a townie looking out for town would move on from a bad push. They would certainly move on from pressure just meant to gather information. The fact you simply won't let it go reads more like scum pushing for a miselim.

pavowski if ur still here rn, what do u think of alstro? you havent really mentioned them too much after ur og rvs vote.

Umlaut has yet to contribute

In post 192, Pavowski wrote:

In post 190, Lukewarm wrote:

In post 189, Pavowski wrote:1 -- your intent to continue signals to me that you've basically made your mind up on this one, and yeah, I think it's early for that. I'm not saying you could've or should've played it any other way, that ship has sailed.

The reason I followed up on your first post was because you did not say "it is too early" you said it is "scummy"

Do you think scum!me would be more likely to make that play then town!me? And why?

See, this is what I mean about parsing words that don't necessarily mean anything. Yes, in my opinion it's too early to make up your mind about any particular player. Yes, I think it's scummy that you're tunneling *so hard* on Val and signaling intent to continue doing so. Those things are not exclusive; they are linked.

I think a townie looking out for town would move on from a bad push. They would certainly move on from pressure just meant to gather information. The fact you simply won't let it go reads more like scum pushing for a miselim.

Thank you --- the point of my question is that I wanted to make sure I fully understood your stance / logic, and I was not sure I did before - now I am

I am not sure why you think that that form of a question is meaningless tho

In post 189, Pavowski wrote:don't love the tone of how he jumped on you in 166,

This is a fair comment - I was a bit boozed up and Agro, and apologize to Luke and you all. That your post felt misreppy after I had taken a stance is not an excuse for being a jerk. I’m sorry to the board.

As for the earlier question about how I could not like the 1v1 and still find it alignment/tone indicative, it has to do with duration. I didn’t like it because it didn’t seem like you all were at all hearing the other (both made good points) and it continued long past it’s utility I’m thankful it’s no longer drowning the play.

In post 194, Not_Mafia wrote:Umlaut has yet to contribute

It is my understanding that today is the last day of their V/LA

Do you have any thoughts on the game so far?

In post 112, Portia wrote:

In post 88, Lukewarm wrote:

In post 83, marcistar wrote:so far i've kinda thought luke seemed a bit off (mostly cuz i dont like his points on val98 very much)

You said similar things several times throughout our last game together, and we were both town

Im lazy - will you actually quote them saying the similar thing? Without hard proof, this would be quite effective manipilation.

Luke you mind hitting this up

Okay, I'm skimming through the topic now. Quick remarks (writing as I go, so earlier comments may not reflect later read updates)

• 34 and particularly the quick townread on alstro is a good look for Marci and I want to call her town, even though I don't actually see what's so townie about 23.
  
• Lukewarm talking Val's "let's just elim Not_Mafia" seriously is... not as bad as I usually think it is when people take jokes seriously, because Val's tone in 44 is hard to pick out as joking particularly in a newbie where it's not necessarily obvious to everyone what 'normal' looks like. 44 is scummy if serious, not scummy if joking,
  wildly
  scummy if "just kidding... unless??"
  
• Actually kind of liking N_M for town based on his page 3 posts? Even the vote for me, if he's scum he shouldn't be indignant about my vote because he'd know he deserves it. (I know it's some serious moon logic to townread someone for an OMGUS but got to call this like I see it)
  
• Val's 58 is lol, largely fluff and more aimed at self-justification than at actually convincing anyone to follow his vote, scummy post. Though the followup in 60 makes me wonder if he's just shitposting.
  
• Kind of like alstro's 73 -- it has qualities of transparency and just feels honest. (I don't know if anyone except maybe Val is seriously proposing we absolutely policy N_M though? I voted him because it was that or random-vote given I wasn't going to read)
  
• Maybe I'm already biased against Val but the question in 74 feels fake.
  
• I like Luke liking 73 in 75
  
• Marci's 83 is another "I disagree but appreciate your perspective" post for me
  
• Val's 99 does have one towny thing about it in that the sort of illusion-of-transparency thinking of "it should have been self-evident I was joking" is a mindset I expect more from town. (@Val: It was not evident at all, and it's still not evident that's not just a backpedal)
  
• Reading the start of pg 5 I'm right there with Luke in getting increasingly tunneled on Val as it goes.
  
• I like Portia's intro.
  
• 115 by Luke is... actually kind of town. Val could just be someone who knows he's town and can't comprehend why Luke doesn't see what is so obvious to him.
  
• Pavowski's 119 looks town-motivated, no reason to try and break up a slap-fight between two other players if you're scum. May need to revisit this if Val does flip red though.
  
• Zyla's 121 and 126 do nothing for me
  
• 134 -- smh, what's the point of declaring v/la if people are just going to vote me for being inactive anyway.
  
• Dislike 135 but can't put my finger on why; it feels too much like self-explanation, maybe? Val ought to be more interested in Luke's alignment or really anyone else's at all than in his own.
  
• 140 -- another tell here: explicitly saying "I'm unvoting because it's not RVS" as if RVS were a formalized game phase is something that more often comes from scum
  
• 144 is fluffy and in isolation I don't like it, but 152 is good -- alstro's read on Val's level of seriousness kind of matches my own (except I was more like "Wait, he's serious? Is he serious? He can't be serious, can he? But it really looks like he is" than thinking he definitely was)
  
• 166 is way over-the-top reaction from Portia and I don't like it
  
• 164 I can't make up my mind if it's a good catch or a nitpick on Luke's part. Portia's characterization does seem a bit self-contradictory and ill-considered. It's possible they're just lazy town with incoherent reads though.
  
• Pavowski's 175 is relatable and Luke's 176 is the sort of advice that's easier given than followed for a player who is naturally prone to caution.
  
• Re. 181 I don't really understand Val's reasoning on why put the vote back now; what happened to make Luke suddenly a scumlean?
  
• 192 -- "tunneling is scummy" is an odd take, do you think tunneling is actually >rand probable to come from scum?