Micro 1060: Radiology Mafia [Game Over]

[marcistar]

wtf juice copying my strat!??@?@?

[Hiraki]

Ausuka's frustration seems genuine to me, and Marci is blatantly trolling and egging them on.

Correct - this is the perceived motion. To me, town normally does not act in a behavior to cause so much disruption. Acting that way, then getting run up, only for someone (generally town) to then say "hey, this is kind of dumb" is a textbook scumplay to me. It gives them both independent town points while actually being on the same dependent team. It is not supposed to be SvS on first thought but behind the surface layer I think it becomes more probable than TvT. TvS is also probable but really dumb in the long run.

IM NOT A TROLL BTW.. I DID ALREADY EXPLAIN IT AUSUKAS JUST IDIOTIC

Yeah, this whole "It's not me guys!!! It's Ausuka!" when

literally

no one agrees with this take either means marci is VI or scum with Ausuka. I really think it should overall be ignored today (I don't really buy Ausuka's point either) but I don't think it should be forgotten.

I'd be interested to hear more about this - what about the interaction seems SvS?

Just to be clear, Juice is referring to my post.

I also think that Ausuka's playstyle is just more detail and very structure oriented. I used to have a phase like this earlier but it makes super giant walls that can get very confusing overall versus fast speedy points (both for town and scumplay).

None of Hiraki, Herta or Juice feel like they have a towny push on Marci.

For someone who likes details, you really don't like to give them yourself. I also feel like this entire post is a really weird retraction of something that you actually had a valid point on (regardless of the fact that I disagree with where the point is going). Note that in my original post I said that SvS was a

reach

and Ausuka is giving some major OMGUS vibes. I am a little confused because they feel potentially town in the way that they are not outward but that can also be from scum. It just feels more townie to me though - until -

Herta's vote on Marci is the worst and while I don't think his play is like *that* scummy I think the jump on her is ?probably? More likely to come from scum than Hiraki and Juice and if I'm looking for scum on the Marci wagon I would start there

This post is the worst because it's almost assuming that Marci is town. I think Marci is absolutely the best flip for today for information at the very least.

You baffle me

I agree with this but I get 100x more town vibes from Juice's non-reactions than Ausuka's random flip because the wagon on marci is 'bad'.

Keep in mind that you made a good point earlier specifically defining what Ausuka was looking for - which I don't really makes sense considering that xyrs point is that xe sees an SvS teaming. I think that's pretty bad reasoning but I'm willing to accept it for the current moment. In the current moment, Marci has done nothing but tunnel a counterargument and launched insults.

I'd also like to point out that I really have a problem with Radical Rat's progression here. Major red flags below.

VOTE: Herta

I think the RVS posting looked weirdly self-conscious, and I think there should be more pressure here

We start out with a naked pressure vote (coincidentally the worst way to pressure someone). Herta posts but then does not respond and then gets into an argument with Juice.

You didn't, but that doesn't change the essence of my point. I thought you were, based on having a newbie-like reaction to getting RVS wagoned, and having a very recent join date, and so I treated you as such.

Okay, this is somewhat fair (I don't agree with it).

You didn't correct me then, but now that I know you aren't new I obviously am not going to treat you or your posts the same way.

So let's be super clear here. Radical Rat is running under the following fact pattern:

1) Juice

says

xe's not new. However, you got the inkling that xe is new. So the thought process here is that because xe says xe is experienced - you are going by xyrs words rather than by the feeling you had? How do you actually know that Juice isn't new? I can tell you I'm new - are you going to believe that on a whim? It would be pretty inconsistent, right? It's the flip of the role that you just laid out.

2) Herta doesn't need pressure anymore. We have 12 days left. ?????

3) Not to mention - the reaction in 7 pages was

so

bad that it made you okay with going for an E-2 vote?

I'm okay with Marci/Radical Rat at this point. Both are good flips.

Post-Edit:

I'm giving you every lifeline I can here.
Mafia is very much a team sport. It is about persuasion, deception, deduction, but most importantly cooperation. If you are town, your goal isn't just to figure out scum. It is to figure out and persuade others that scum is scum.

In that same vein saying 2 players are the scumteam while not supplying evidence and dying for it would not be helpful to the town, regardless of whether that solve is correct or not.

I agree with this which is why I'm confused why you're questioning Juice in this manner. Maybe you are ignoring your gut - which is respectable.

[MegAzumarill]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: johnnyfararr
I'm not dealing with this right now.

[Juice]

UNVOTE:

I retract my previous comments. Glad no one else really pushed on Marci - cause that would have been super scummy.

[Aisa]

I kind of got a similar SvS vibe and I think it's because both you and marci essentially brought up the same point repeatedly and neither of you seemed willing to relent. As far as arguments go I think that's one of the easier ways to fake them

I mean, I was asking a question and she repeatedly dodged it and started being hostile, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do in that situation.

I mean, it's easier said than done, but the theoretical answer is to disengage. In the same way you wouldn't push Enchant for only making one-liner posts. I feel like your reasoning here is just the tiniest bit reachy and it's slightly +scum.

In any case, I specifically asked Juice about this rather than, like Hikari or something because I wanted to hear it from xem and I'm a bit curious to why you would answer this question for xem when xe is your main suspect?

It was all part of the same stream of consciousness. As in "ooh the SvS thought kinda makes sense but there are these other things I dislike". The part of my mind that resolves contradictions in my writing just went on annual leave for a while because it's been working overtime and really deserves a spa retreat :3

Spoiler: meme

[Aisa]

I was gonna delight you all with the "super interesting" fact about myself that while I love E-2, I hate E-1, but Meg has deprived me of the opportunity to do so.

Anyway, I am confused but I will deal with this tomorrow. UNVOTE: Juice

[Radical Rat]

Ausuka's frustration seems genuine to me, and Marci is blatantly trolling and egging them on.

Correct - this is the perceived motion. To me, town normally does not act in a behavior to cause so much disruption. Acting that way, then getting run up, only for someone (generally town) to then say "hey, this is kind of dumb" is a textbook scumplay to me. It gives them both independent town points while actually being on the same dependent team. It is not supposed to be SvS on first thought but behind the surface layer I think it becomes more probable than TvT. TvS is also probable but really dumb in the long run.

In the abstract sense, yes, clogging up a thread with nonsense that also separates the two partners is a potential scumstrat. In this particular case though I believe that Ausuka is just as frustrated as she presents herself to be, and that marci is feeding and encouraging that frustration on purpose. It could be for nefarious ends, it could just be that they enjoy it. But because Ausuka's reactions appear genuine, it rules out SvS in my mind. Either or neither could feasibly be scum, but probably not both. If I were told one of them MUST be I'd pick marci first, but for now I'd rather just move on and let other things play out.

1) Juice says xe's not new. However, you got the inkling that xe is new. So the thought process here is that because xe says xe is experienced - you are going by xyrs words rather than by the feeling you had? How do you actually know that Juice isn't new? I can tell you I'm new - are you going to believe that on a whim? It would be pretty inconsistent, right? It's the flip of the role that you just laid out.

It makes more sense to believe that I made an incorrect assumption than that Juice is lying about their experience level, particularly in a way that hurts xem. And no, I wouldn't believe you if you randomly said you're new because I can see your join date. A recent join date, like Juice's, isn't necessarily indicative of inexperience because they could have offsite experience, could be an alt, any number of things. But an old join date does explicitly remove the possibility of being new. You COULD say you haven't played in a long time, and are out of practice/don't remember theory, and then yeah I'd probably take you at your word there. I think it'd be somewhat of a dick move to refuse to believe either a claim of experience or inexperience, as well as it would be to misrepresent experience in the first place. I think it falls outside the scope of acceptable game-relevant lies to tell.

We start out with a naked pressure vote (coincidentally the worst way to pressure someone). Herta posts but then does not respond and then gets into an argument with Juice.
2) Herta doesn't need pressure anymore. We have 12 days left. ?????

3) Not to mention - the reaction in 7 pages was so bad that it made you okay with going for an E-2 vote?

It's not naked though. I clearly say it's because his posting looked weirdly self-conscious. And then me switching my vote to Juice is not in any way an exoneration of Herta? I move my vote to who I think is most likely to be scum, and right now that's Juice. Does that mean I think Herta is Town now? No. Does it mean I don't want pressure on Herta? No. All it means is that right now, in this moment, Juice is who I scumread the most.
And... yeah, I'm fine with an E-2 vote? I like E-2. It's the perfect balance of genuinely threatening, yet safe enough not to cause accidental claims or eliminations. The perfect place to sort people. Especially in a micro where E-2 is only three people, it's absurd to try to dance around it.

[Juice]

I think my rxn test went very well though - lots of juicy protein

[Ircher]

Day 1 VC #6

Herta

(1): marcistar (18)

JohnnyFarrar

(1): MegAzumarill (177)

Juice

(2): Radical Rat (152), Ausuka (157)

marcistar

(2): Hiraki (20), Herta (97)

Not Voting

(3): JohnnyFarrar, Juice (178), Aisa (180)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to accuse a player of malpractice.

Deadlines

This phase will end on August 27, 2022 8:00 PM CDT (GMT-5:00) or in (expired on 2022-08-27 20:00:00).

Moderator Notes

1: If you have regular weekend V/LA, you must either notify me each time or set V/LA tags each time.
2: Let me know if you spot any errors in the vote count or voting history. I am trying out a new tool for recording the voting history.
3: Let me know if you go by a different pronoun than listed.
4: JohnnyFarrar is V/LA until the end of Tuesday, August 16.

Pronoun Key

1. Ausuka : any / any / any
2. Aisa : she / her / her
3. MegAzumarill : any / any / any
4. Hiraki : he / him / his
5. Juice : xe / xem / xyrs
6. marcistar : unspecified / unspecified / unspecified
7. Radical Rat : they / them / theirs
8. Herta : unspecified / unspecified / unspecified
9. JohnnyFarrar : he / him / his

[marcistar]

rosejudge

[Herta]

I think my rxn test went very well though - lots of juicy protein

Which part was a test, bud? From here it looks like you're trying to handwave away some anti town behavior.

Especially when you say it was a reaction test and don't give us any idea as to your takeaways. You got lots of meat you say but you're just letting it rot? That doesn't jibe with a townie mindset.

[Herta]

UNVOTE:

[Herta]

Hiraki likely town. I only felt it before. After that thorough analysis I'm fairly convinced. It's hard to fake that many thoughts on a chunk like that.

[Ausuka]

Yeah, this whole "It's not me guys!!! It's Ausuka!" when literally no one agrees with this take either means marci is VI or scum with Ausuka. I really think it should overall be ignored today (I don't really buy Ausuka's point either) but I don't think it should be forgotten.

Will respond to the rest later but

Spoiler:

Ok so I'm going to put the proper effort into rereading at some point

Primarily, I want to weigh evidence for and against the existence of a Marci/scamper team

Secondarily, I think Marci/jf, Marci/Gamma and gamma/jf all deserve serious consideration, roughly in that order

ASUSUKA VOTE ME I BET YOU WONT

VOTE ME SINCE IM SUCH CLEAR SCUM U COWARD

OH WAIT ITS CUZ UR SCUM AND U WANT A TOWNIE TO VOTE ME FIRST

i can towncase myself later but whats the use fighting something so set in stone because of towns dumbassry

Lol

Scamper I don't understand why you think Marci is town here like any substantial percentage of the time

DO IT

DO IT

I BET U WONT

It's so tempting but unfortunately I made a promise to my feline friend

It's so tempting but unfortunately I made a promise to my feline friend

DO IT VOTE ME

ITS NOT GAMETHROWING IF U THINK IM SCUM

OH WAIT...! UR SCUM!!

It's so tempting but unfortunately I made a promise to my feline friend

DO IT VOTE ME

ITS NOT GAMETHROWING IF U THINK IM SCUM

OH WAIT...! UR SCUM!!

Literally you are calling me sure scum while not voting me

Like you are doing the exact same thing

COME ON SCUM VOTE ME I BET U WONT

im not scared

if im the miselim, so be it, nothing i can really do about it since im not known to be persuasive
but i will try my best to actually fight it when i have the time to

im confident in doing what i feel, and if its wrong, also, so be it?? like its not rrally a big deal

SO COME ON SNAKE COME FIGHT ME

BRING IT

There's no way town you votes me in elo like that I refuse to believe it

when was the last time i made it to elo bestie?!?!?

I am making a judgement that you are intelligent enough not to do that and bet the game on a scumread that came out of nowhere with zero justification.

COME ON SCUM VOTE ME I BET U WONT

Still not voting me but brave rhetoric

COME VOTE ME COME DO IT

OH WAIT U WONT U SNAKE

This is a lovely interaction I had with Marci in ELO in our last game together when she was town. I think it's reasonable to believe that her behaviour here is within her townrange.

[Hiraki]

It's not naked though. I clearly say it's because his posting looked weirdly self-conscious.

You literally called it a pressure vote. It's naked.

And then me switching my vote to Juice is not in any way an exoneration of Herta? I move my vote to who I think is most likely to be scum, and right now that's Juice. Does that mean I think Herta is Town now? No. Does it mean I don't want pressure on Herta? No. All it means is that right now, in this moment, Juice is who I scumread the most.

And so do other people - so when I accuse you of 'dropping' Herta. You may not 'mentally' drop it but now your naked pressure vote is gone so you have lost all avenues to pressure Herta...in order to join the leading wagon of the day. That doesn't sound very weird to you? You vote because someone you think is scum rather than voting to get information first - especially on Day 1?

And... yeah, I'm fine with an E-2 vote? I like E-2. It's the perfect balance of genuinely threatening, yet safe enough not to cause accidental claims or eliminations.

The wagon hit E-1 only 5-10 posts later. That doesn't sound very safe to me.

That doesn't jibe with a townie mindset.

In textbook, agreed. I am starting to think Juice is just a troll at this point - something that does not help with alignment.

This is a lovely interaction I had with Marci in ELO in our last game together when she was town. I think it's reasonable to believe that her behaviour here is within her townrange.

There is a pretty clear difference in tone and insult throwing here.

[Ausuka]

Just to be clear, Juice is referring to my post.

I'm aware. I thought the way xe immediately kind of parroted your point and used it to jump on Marci looked bad so I was hoping to force xem to give their individual thoughts on her.

I also think that Ausuka's playstyle is just more detail and very structure oriented. I used to have a phase like this earlier but it makes super giant walls that can get very confusing overall versus fast speedy points (both for town and scumplay).

I agree that my playstyle isn't the most charismatic, but I don't think my reads are accurate enough that convincing people of them should be the priority. This is kind of my natural writing style (when it comes to the kind-of-debatey format of mafia at least) so writing like this basically allows me to present my thoughts the most genuine way I can. I find I tend to get universally townread a lot when I play like this, which takes me out of the limpool and helps town even if my reads aren't great. I would be open to more feedback about this postgame though.

For someone who likes details, you really don't like to give them yourself. I also feel like this entire post is a really weird retraction of something that you actually had a valid point on (regardless of the fact that I disagree with where the point is going). Note that in my original post I said that SvS was a reach and Ausuka is giving some major OMGUS vibes.

I mean, I didn't say I like details a lot, that was your characterisation of my play. I didn't think giving a lot of detail was necessary there, but I'll elaborate here. Herta's jump on Marci felt convenient and like he was trying to give the bare minimum explanation? I can't explain it that well but I didn't like it. Your vote was leftover from RVS and you didn't really explain much why you thought Marci was scum - I still townlean on you overall but I think I'm right that it wasn't a towny push on your part. Juice's jump on Marci, like Herta, was convenient and seemed a bit shallow, but the vote putting her at E-1 made it so blatantly suspicious, that I thought it was less scummy than Herta's overall.

Also, I'm not retracting my original point. There are three things that play into my changing the topic;

1) people are calling me out as if I'm as bad as Marci just because I kept trying to get her to answer the question, and fired back when she started insulting me. Given this, I do not think pressing her further is going to be productive, and is just going to make me get frustrated.

2) I honestly just want to talk about other things. This is context I wouldn't expect anyone else to know, but we are friends and I like Marci as a person so her calling me idiotic feels hurtful. I want to say she wouldn't do it as town but I also want to say she wouldn't press on my insecurities as a scum strategy. I know from last game she can do trolling as town, but I just do not want to deal with her right now. I also just do not think engaging her will be productive at all. I am not going to just give her a pass for the rest of the day but I'd rather talk to and about other people. We have plenty of time.

3) There are other people I want to talk about. Last game Marci behaved like this and was town, as I said. I don't want her antics to monopolise the attention and I think it's worth pursuing suspects outside of her. If Marci and Juice are both town placing a "please eliminate me" stickers on their backs, and we focus on their blatantly scummy behaviour, we are going to be in a very bad place.

This post is the worst because it's almost assuming that Marci is town. I think Marci is absolutely the best flip for today for information at the very least.

Uh, no it doesn't. I can call out a vote that I see as bad without assuming the person being voted is town. Even disregarding that everyone is more likely than not to be town at this stage regardless of my read on them, scum vote each other literally all the time.

[Ausuka]

There is a pretty clear difference in tone and insult throwing here.

Uh, she called me a coward and a snake in that game. I think that's insult throwing.

[Ausuka]

I think my rxn test went very well though - lots of juicy protein

Why did you decide to do this reaction test? What were you hoping to get out of it, what reads have you gotten out of it?

UNVOTE:

[Ausuka]

It was all part of the same stream of consciousness. As in "ooh the SvS thought kinda makes sense but there are these other things I dislike". The part of my mind that resolves contradictions in my writing just went on annual leave for a while because it's been working overtime and really deserves a spa retreat :3

I mean, I believe you when you say this, but it feels suspicious to me. Like, you've been voting Juice since pretty early and seemed like you were trying to apply pressure on xem earlier, so your passive suspicion towards xem already felt kind of weird. The fact that you went into the post seemingly without the mindset that Juice is your main suspect makes you feel like scum that doesn't really care.

I hope you get that spa retreat though!

[marcistar]

if it actually hurts you ill stop asuska

[marcistar]

everything thats about me is so boring did hiraki say anything else other than the fact that im a good elimination

[Hiraki]

everything thats about me is so boring did hiraki say anything else other than the fact that im a good elimination

I didn't even talk about you. Try using something other than Control F to read.

[Ausuka]

if it actually hurts you ill stop asuska

i would like that, yes

[marcistar]

how do you control f on mobile LMAO

[Hiraki]

Herta's jump on Marci felt convenient and like he was trying to give the bare minimum explanation? I can't explain it that well but I didn't like it. Your vote was leftover from RVS and you didn't really explain much why you thought Marci was scum - I still townlean on you overall but I think I'm right that it wasn't a towny push on your part. Juice's jump on Marci, like Herta, was convenient and seemed a bit shallow, but the vote putting her at E-1 made it so blatantly suspicious, that I thought it was less scummy than Herta's overall.

Do you not see the irony in saying this and looking at the Juice wagon - which actually got to E-1 - but you have not made the same point about that?

I actually agree with you that Herta's change is a little strange to me but it's not at all 'convenient'. It's the second vote on the wagon after Herta already asks a question.

Your vote was leftover from RVS

That's a pretty bad assumption. I try my best not to participate in RVS because I think it's dumb but necessary. My vote was never RVS.

and you didn't really explain much why you thought Marci was scum

Do people need to explain their votes? Maybe this goes into a little bit of theory but I don't think you need to explain a vote until you actually want support on it.

Uh, no it doesn't. I can call out a vote that I see as bad without assuming the person being voted is town. Even disregarding that everyone is more likely than not to be town at this stage regardless of my read on them, scum vote each other literally all the time.

This isn't really addressing the actual topic on hand here. If you call out the wagon but you think the person is still scum, you think that scum is joining a scum wagon on Day 1 to gain credit. That's a really weird buss to make before the 10th page. Saying 'scum vote each other literally all the time' is correct but they don't do it for nothing - which is something that you're accusing almost every person in your explanation above of doing.