Mafiascum.net

In post 1748, MastinSSK wrote:AP's scumtell is, put in simplest terms, "You can't prove I'm scum, nyehnyeh."

Pfffffffffffft

You're so bad

I have a very simple way of proving he's scum

HEY AP

SCUMSAYSWHAT

In post 1724, Red Gyarados wrote:

In post 1674, Yulia Jue wrote:MastinSSK (4): CupcakePanda, Carbon Fiber, The Fox and the Hound, Yukari Yakumo
AngryPidgeon (3): Lord Business, Clyton, mastinSSK

Somebody want to summarize these two wagons?

Basic version: Katsuki's Katsuki, and will never change votes. Carbon Fiber's been scumreading me all day. (My read is currently town on them, but ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.) Fox/Hound are extremely likely scum. GiF, well, I really don't know why he's there. Could be scum, but not a top candidate.

The wagon is based off of...well, I don't actually particularly know, to be honest.

Lord Business is a decent townread, as is Clyton, though I forget their reasoning for being on the wagon. My reason is that this is ANGRYPIDGEON we're talking about, and he's basically just playing as a cheeky scumbutt this game.

In post 1735, The Fox and the Hound wrote:What prompted this decision?

Seemed like a good idea to do.

Where are you getting this from?

While I don't think there's anything preventing me from saying, I think it's not something I want to discuss publicly at this point in time. Sorry.

MastinSSK wagon going strong!!!

Which never actually happens if I'm actually scum.

In post 1738, Kagura wrote:Mastin, your push on the slot in particular is reeking with bias thanks to the "I hope that you are scum because if you're town you're repeating the same mistake over and over again..."

Oh, yes. Quite aware. I happen to think they're possibly scum on other merits, but there's a reason I'm not actually voting them; it's because I fully recognize the bias there.

We can additionally lynch orc who is incredibly disengaged, having weird interactions with ffery (paranoia is usually the overarching theme when he's town, and this isn't one of those games where ffery should be a ride or die townread for orc. Xenosaga was one of those games, but this is not.)

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

I caught something in 1741, but shocker. Because I'm not confbiasing, I can't actually remember what. Thankfully,

In post 1741, AngryPidgeon wrote:Cupcake should not be a strong townread for anyone. Meta can go fuck itself.

I've got this! This half-assed, half-hearted "meta is bullshit" is entirely fake, especially since if AP was going to make this type of point, he'd have made it way sooner as town.

Bit more of a mental note to myself, since I'm getting ready to go to sleep for the night, but I did the read of others and something I wanted to do was compile them into a single post. That'd be a perfect time for the updates to them. (And yes, in such a short timeframe, they will be updated, because again, quite explicitly not static stale reads.)

Which would be the first step towards a properly formatted readslist, soyeah. Something I'll HOPEFULLY get around to.

In post 1743, orcinus_theoriginal wrote:Bork: I've gotten better at reading fery between our last town game and now

Also exams+modding a mish mash game

Ill be back here soon

This really doesn't give me any sort of warm fuzzy about your townread. And you were kinda waffly about whether my early townread on you was scummy or not.

Also, you saw me as scum put down a pretty unearned strong town read on Nacho in the nati game. It hasn't even crossed your mind that I could have been doing the same to you?

In post 1738, Kagura wrote:If we want to lynch scum today (and do so easily!), we could kill the person who we're still voting who happens to be diving the fuck under the radar and following his scum meta to a T (which I feel has been pointed out several times by many different people, and yet this never gets acted on because...?). We can additionally lynch orc who is incredibly disengaged, having weird interactions with ffery (paranoia is usually the overarching theme when he's town, and this isn't one of those games where ffery should be a ride or die townread for orc. Xenosaga was one of those games, but this is not.)

Talk to me about how this is pere's scum meta as opposed to town. I have an ingrained habit of always scumreading him and I'm strongly inclined to follow beli's read here.

In post 1587, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:

In post 1584, Mac wrote:

In post 1553, Breakfast With Sandy wrote: I hope you don't mind being drafted into my townbloc.

I have very little issues, but may I ask who else is in it?

I have a bunch of townreads of various strengths atm, but only 1 other candidate for townbloc. Possibly 2. I need a little more data.

I'll probably post a reads list tonight or tomorrow.

Okay, let me know when discussions begin.

In post 1590, PeregrineV wrote:Looking over Yukari Yakumo (GiF) posting, the sum of it seems to be:

Have developed a strong townread on ElementalHawk/AP (1235), wants more info on why people are scumreading the slot (but 1272....).

The player most scumreading it is MastinSSK, who earns himself a vote in 1447 while simultaneously reducing the townread of AP/Elemental slot (1564)

Overall, a hard

In post 1591, PeregrineV wrote:Meh- they can both go on null on scum side.

I'm seriously struggling to follow the thought process behind this, and in fact the reason behind all this as a whole.You've randomly targetted GiF and his townread on EHAP, and then somehow spun mastin into it, and then in the end basically went "fuck it" and thrown them both pretty much back in the cage where they came from rather than trying to sort them?

stalin wrote:my mastin read has gotten a little tattered. I need to work on it. beli is thinking scum, though.

Can we have beli up and explaining this, or if he already has, a pointer? I'm keep swinging back and forth between mastin from scum to town and I can't put my finger on why.

I think the thing that really bugs me is her tunnelvision on Fox and AP. The latter I can understand because I'm not really liking him mucho at the moment. But the Fox post back from Ceph that felt really genuine and pretty much the sole reason I have a townread on that slot at the moment was pretty much ignored and classed as "not town" by mastin, and that was a cause for concern for me. I don't know if I'm just having flashes of Anything Goes in my head though.

- I read through your mastintown reasoning. One thing is going round my head - you say mastin as scum is motivated by survivalism rather than working towards a town wincon, and that was why you voted her in Walking Dead. In your Walking Dead post you link, you say mastin exists only in the form of "AD is scum." What differs from mastin there, and mastin here preaching to the choir that AP/Fox are scum, and not really willing to even consider changing her viewpoint?

Carbon Fiber wrote:I felt DV's progression of suspicion on Rancid felt incredibly town. In particular, I liked how he went from having mild concerns in Post 383 towards a full-out case and vote in Post 1165. A lot of the reasoning he provided there also made a ton of sense considering Rancid's reaction of wanting to gladiate BRO and Desp wasn't the strongest. I also liked the additional criticism of Nati's outburst since was misdirected. Even more than the content, the ostentatious tone with which he cast the vote felt incredibly bold and not at all "safe" the way Mastin is portraying Fox's posting to be. Regardless of whether you actually agree with DV's reasons, I didn't feel like voting Muffin's slot who is one of the most difficult lynches on the site to be either safe or opportunistic (and no, being hated doesn't make him a significantly easier lynch). I like the reasons DV provided for his vote, I like the timing and I liked the forcefulness with which he presented his case.

For starters, 383, unless I'm completely blind, contains no reference to RBD. Secondly the case itself was filled out by nonsense. A matter of opinion is their first reason ("we think Tammy towned it up before RBD, therefore RBD is scum") which comes around six or seven hundred posts before they actually present it as a case. Secondly, the gladiator threats aren't really a thing to scumread someone for.

Their case is weak. Their third point was because Nati displayed rage and emotion that Ceph has only even seen as scum - does that mean Nati can't be angry as town? As town, is Nati the most mellow person in the world? I don't think so. And I totally understood the point he was making in the original rage post.

And finally, the vote was pretty opportunistic given Just Sheep Us had thrown down a vote on them posts before. I wonder whether or not that vote would've happened if JSU hadn't, I don't know.

Aaaand after writing all that, I've ooh'd and aah'd over my read on them.

In post 1675, MastinSSK wrote:...But I ask myself, "Do you truly think they could be scum?" And the answer, while a reluctant yes, spawns the question, "Okay, dumb question; do you truly think they actually

are

scum?", to which, the answer--after a small bit of pondering--never changes. Closing eyes. Breathing in. Clearing mind. And as exhaling, shaking my head.
No.
No, I don't.

This reads like it's straight from a book. I fucking love it and just had to get it out of my system.

In post 1700, Just Sheep Us wrote:

In post 1546, Mac wrote:................. what the actual fuck?

So are you going to disagree that saying that an entrance "100% cannot be town" is bad logic when that entrance has been used by the same player as town?

Because that line of logic really shouldn't be that hard.

No actually, I think I totally misread this. I'll get back to you on it.

In post 1326, Titan wrote:

In post 1150, Lord Business wrote:I had RBD as town lean.

There appears to be no direct tactical reasoning to their trolling, they occasionally seen to return to the game point and if I can be a hypocrite for a moment the meta of both of the heads suggest they are quite relaxed in the game and I believe one of them was the mafia player of the year for being strongly townread in several games as scum, whereas here the effort to gain such a read isn't there.

They also happened to agree with me over the demoralising nature of "obvtown-gate" so I currently have a bias in their favour.

That one head your talking about also didn't try to get town read in NY169.

Yeah, I did, kinda, just in slightly different ways than I normally try to as scum

In post 1328, Just Sheep Us wrote:

In post 1245, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:Hey BRO

Just so we're clear

You think we claimed Hated Miller Gladiator out the gate because... we're scum who decided claiming an extremely negative utility role that was easily provable was a gooooooooood idea because... DERP DERP DERP I'M BRO AND I'M HOPING NOBODY THINKS ABOUT THIS AND THIS MISLYNCH GOES THROUGH WITHOUT ME LOOKING OBVSCUM

last i checked you were completely off the radar for the first fifty pages of the game

so...???

I was "off the radar" because people didn't realise it was a serious claim. I clarified it was a serious claim, so your objection here is pathetically weak.

I was also off the radar because nobody had the balls to commit to a fucking read on me because that's how shit goes now apparently, but it's not like I wasn't in the thick of things

But since you have a scum read on me, how about you talk about the reasons you think I'm scum

In post 1330, Just Sheep Us wrote:

In post 1260, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:Because not only is he trying to pass it off as an "obvtown" entrance (because he knows he's done it as town before, but he also isn't stupid enough to realise it's something he could fake as scum, so it's not a fucking obvtown entrance, and him calling it obvtown is because he's hoping people draw the parallels and call it obvtown because he's done it as town before) but I think it's an entrance he specifically did as scum trying to imitate his town game because I already thought the fucking slot was scum prior the the replacement.

man that plan really wor--oh wait, no it didn't

so do you think ap is incompetent? why do you think scum-ap would tailor his game to you, of all people in this playerlist?

I don't have any opinion on AP as a player. I've played with him twice before (both times town) and he was average both times. I'm not sure what he's capable of as scum, but you're missing the point completely or you're just playing dumb here.

He used an opening he's used before as town, correct? You're following so far? Stop me at the point I've lost you because I know I'm talking to a special person here and I don't want to go too fast. Let's think about why he would do this. It's possible he's town and thought, "OMG, a good way to enter this game is to use an opening I've done as town before, an opening that I could easily fake as scum, and then berate people when they don't think I'm obvtown because of my opening posts! I'll call them really, really obvtown and criticise anyone who disagrees because that is a sensible thing to do!" You seem to think this is what he did. But again, I know you're a... very special person... so I'm not particularly surprised you think this. I think the more likely scenario is that he's scum and thought, "hey I'm going to imitate an opening that most of the player list has seen me do as town before and then criticise anyone who thinks it isn't a town entrance because they know I've done it as town before!" <- not only did he actually do this, but he didn't even have to bring up the past game he did it as town for comparison because it was an unconscious link that... special players like yourself... made. this is exactly the sort of thing i did in gif's touhou game with the way i approached the gaiden lynch D1; i didn't want to point out myself that it was unlike what i've done as scum in the past, i let cabd point out my usual bussing meta and then i let YOU (desp) point out that he was, in fact, wrong. i think AP was doing a similar thing here.

In post 1333, Just Sheep Us wrote:

In post 1306, AngryPidgeon wrote:Gonna be honest, as much as I want to believe BRO is right about me, I really think hes going for townpoints with this gladiator push. I think he thinks its expected of him? Or hes just trying to get me on his side? BRO is an objectively good player and pushing gladiators because you got gladiated by scum once is not objectively good play.

what fucking townpoints are available for pushing a gladiator claim like 2 weeks after they claimed it when the slot has had less than zero pressure on it?

i think you're doing it not because you think it will give you town points, but because you think it's expected of you (as town, you would push a lynch on a gladiator claim is what you think. so you are not analysing things in a town way and instead you're blindly pushing this)

In post 1338, Kagura wrote:

CF wrote:If that's the case, his annoyance is misplaced. He could maybe address the people creating noisy back-and-forths as opposed to someone like me who is keeping noise to a minimum. There is plenty of stuff that I haven't responded to and don't intend to because I don't believe it will help me solve the game. Most of my back-and-forths are questions, conversations, or analysis/explanations of reads.

This is a really town post.

-b

No, it isn't.

In post 1341, The Fox and the Hound wrote:Look. I am not good at conveying why things mean to me what they do. My townread stands.

So in spite of me pointing out that your reasoning is completely flawed, you're like, "Nope, townread stands!"

K

And you wonder why people don't read you as town

In post 1341, The Fox and the Hound wrote:If you can't handle the fact that I tend to come up with strange and seemingly illogical reasons when I'm pushed for them, you should hang me every game.

It's not that your reasons are illogical, it's that they're blatantly wrong and you don't seem to care

I suppose that does actually make them illogical... hmm

How the fuck should I be reading you as town when you don't care that you're wrong?

In post 1341, The Fox and the Hound wrote:If you're town, I would like you to iso me again, try to be just a teensy bit objective, and tell me you still think I'm scum, and why would be appreciated but is optional. I happen to think the position that I am scum is not only untenable but becoming increasingly so.

I'm not going to ISO you. I can tell you why I think you're scum off the top of my head. All your pushes this game have come from a place that doesn't make sense from a town perspective. Your mastin push is a really good example of this (I am still not sure why you actually think mastin is scum when they're really obviously not and I see you using the excuse that you always think mastin looks scummy to hide behind in the same way you did in Xenosaga) but all of your other pushes come from a place that makes just as little sense. The vote on me? What the fuck was that bullshit? Honestly. Like wow. I know it was the DV head but fucking wow. One of the most hilariously bad votes I've ever seen placed on me. And when I pointed out how fucking illogical it was, you guys just shrugged it off and said, "Nope, still not wrong!" Really. Fucking. Town. Of you guys.

In post 1341, The Fox and the Hound wrote:I don't understand how you can even think that I should clearly think Mastin is town, because they've given me basically no reason to at all and plenty to think the opposite, ie pushing for an easy mislynch on me like it's literally a stronger conviction than most people's religions and still can't even pretend to have a reason excpet "this is soooooooooooooo scum" as though having a sufficient number of vowels in a word makes it extra convincing.

This is such a load of bullshit. Firstly, if this is your reason for thinking mastin is scum, then why isn't mastin justified in thinking you're scum. Because you literally have no reason for thinking mastin is scum that isn't virtually identical to why mastin thinks you're scum (but with less substance because mastin has more reasons to think you're scum than just this). Secondly, mastin is obvtown, and I don't expect you to see it (partially because you're scum and partially because you have no fucking clue how to read mastin). But what you should know is that I know how to read mastin and I'm telling you mastin isn't scum here. Instead of finding out why I think mastin isn't scum, you're ignoring it and going, "Nope, mastin scum! I'm right!" Again. Not. A. Town. Thought. Process.

Tell you what. Why don't you sum up all the reasons you think mastin is scum for me, so I have something to assess. Because so far I haven't seen any town thought processes coming from your push here. Convince me I'm wrong.

In post 1344, The Fox and the Hound wrote:Muffin. There is a chance you are town. You were in 169. Does this not look exactly, and I mean EXACTLY like what happened to me in that game.

The thing is, in that game you were making logical arguments. Your points had some merit. Your attitude was completely different. In that game you even acknowledged that the people who were scum reading you had a fucking point because you knew your play wasn't town-looking at the beginning of that game and it was only after you started putting in effort that you really came across as town looking. And even then it was different to this game because in that game you were assessing things in a town-looking way. Here? Not seeing it.

The thing is I can't give examples of something that's not there. So I can't show that you're not assessing things in the same way you were in 169. So comparing this to 169 is just dumb.

In post 1344, The Fox and the Hound wrote:If you really think it looks more like my tunnel on bulbafenix in 165, I can't help you. Because it doesn't. I actually won that argument because I got to make up nice-sounding reasons.

I actually think this is more similar to your Xenosaga play than your 169 play (I didn't, and won't, read 165 so I don't care about that). In Xenosaga, you made up similar reasons to tunnel mastin, similarly terrible reasons, while ignoring everyone pointing out that you're wrong, and hiding behind the mask of, "I always think mastin looks scummy!"

It was bullshit there, it's bullshit here.

I think you use it because mastin is an easy target to push (barely anybody reads anything mastin writes so you can look like you're having an argument with someone and know that the person you're arguing with won't be listened to)

I do not think you're taking a step back here and looking for the ways in which you could be wrong. I do not think you actually think you're right here. Or at least if you do, you could come up with better reasons for your push than you currently have.

I also think you're scum here for a reason I'd rather not talk about at this point in time but may talk about at a later time if it's convenient for me.

In post 1346, Just Sheep Us wrote:- drake and mastin both scumread him for his entrance posts; bro townreads him

No, I'm not scum reading AP for his entrance (though I do not think it was a town entrance). I'm scum reading him because I thought his predecessor was scum, and I do not think his play so far (up to p54, still catching up) looks town. The opening was one example, the back-and-forth with mastin was another.

In post 1350, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:

In post 1344, The Fox and the Hound wrote:

If anyone reads a single one of my posts this game, make it this one.

Muffin. There is a chance you are town. You were in 169. Does this not look exactly, and I mean EXACTLY like what happened to me in that game.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=400

I am not hard to win arguments against. Because I very often can't back up my actions. My stances sometimes don't make sense, and even when they do, I hardly know why I have the opinions I do.

If you really think it looks more like my tunnel on bulbafenix in 165, I can't help you. Because it doesn't. I actually won that argument because I got to make up nice-sounding reasons.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=200

I can't make those links work properly. But it really is worth bothering to look at them.

All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing. It's seeming as though the people who normally prevent me from being a free mislynch are not interested. This bothers me, but whatever. Scum appear to have figured this out. Without them I'm little better than 2008 consistent day 1 lynch cephrir. Maybe it's not the people I think it is, but they will be on this wagon. That's not a threat, it's a promise.

I feel like the gang up on me here feels exactly like 169, and I think the people I'm fighting with are going to turn out to be scum again. Please actually think about this and make this the one time you all don't completely ignore someone posthumously if I am indeed lynched today. That is all.

This is town as fuck.

No it fucking isn't. Please don't buy that shit. The first line specifically was an appeal that's similar to ones I've made as scum in the past. The content in the post is not particularly convincing either way. It's nowhere near "town as fuck".

In post 1351, Just Sheep Us wrote:AP, you realize I didn't state a town read on you until after mastin/RBD started pushing you on your entrance, right?

Why didn't you?

In post 1353, MastinSSK wrote:All-in-all, Cephrir is the type of player who you have to look at the reasoning, not the wording. And his reasoning here is basically the same thing that I used to catch him in Xenogears. He's doing things that he really shouldn't be doing if he was town. Among them, his push on me. Because in Xenogears, he knew I was town and that I wasn't giving reasoning, yet he brought it up in this game as if he had never encountered it before.

IAWTP. Except that I think Cephrir can be read off of posting style. I think his scum play is similar to mine (especially in that he knows most of the ins and outs of both his scum and town games and can therefore tailor specific aspects of it to meta players) but I think there are tonal differences that distinguish his town and scum games. I'm not extremely confident I'm picking up on the right things, but I am reading him here as scum tonally - it's a different kind of vibe to the one I was getting in the hydra open and 169.

In post 1354, Just Sheep Us wrote:RBD's scummy as

Why do you think this? Because you've still yet to really talk about it

In post 1358, MastinSSK wrote:Today, we're lynching one of {Just Sheep Us, The Fox and The Hound, AngryPidgeon}.
RBD is going to gladiate one of the two survivors.

There's no other way the days will go.

You get no choice in who we gladiate.

In post 1362, Just Sheep Us wrote:RBD scumread is because they've been buddying the fuck out of mastin at every juncture, even when she's making pushes that are terribad (like the early tammy push, the CF push, etc).

That's because I have a lot of confidence in my ability to read mastin and I have a _really_ good history of reading him correctly in 100% of the games we've been in so far. I mean, granted, even when I'm scum I have to do the same thing, but thinking I'm scum because of it is about as dumb as dumb can be. If this is BRO and he read _any_ of Xenosaga, then I'm considering this a scum claim. Because he should know I do this with mastin, he's seen my approach to mastin in many games now, this should not come as a surprise to him and he should not think this means anything about my alignment (though I would argue that I don't think I'd play it the same as scum, but *shrug*)

I mean, I literally just did the same thing in the completed Xenosaga game where I read mastin as town off his opening posts and stuck with the read the entire game despite a majority disagreeing with it. And I was town there. So...? What? Am I just scum here because ~magic~?

In post 1362, Just Sheep Us wrote:Fast forward to your entrance, and with mastin/RBD pushing something on you as scummy that's objectively null, ESPECIALLY given that you're probably the trolliest "strong" player on site, and yeah, I'm not gonna let that shit slide.

But it's not null, and I explained why it's not null when you asked me about it. Why are you ignoring that?

In post 1363, Just Sheep Us wrote:Okay I actually have to finish that paper that's due in about an hour now because I was too angry at mastin/muffin to finish it last night.

It's OK. I get upset when people peg me as scum, too. :<

In post 1369, Cephrir wrote:But, actually, I would love to talk about Xenogears, because I've been treading on fucking eggshells trying not to. Why do you think I was trying not to jump down your throat this game, it's because at first I thought you felt the same way you did in that game (i.e. "damn I see absolutely no way this can possibly be town"). I've been trying to play it off like I have substantial meta with you apart from that game but I actually pretty much don't. Anything I've claimed to know about the way you play has basically been that. You may notice that I won the argument there and came reasonably close to getting you lynched. I also scumread you in that game because I literally knew I would be jumping down your throat if I was town. And hey guess what, here I am. I know there are style issues muddying things here and I don't even give a fuck. I'm done trying to convince myself to hold back because you literally could not be scummier. For someone so concerned with how good I am at imitating my town game you sure don't seem to be considering that I was doing exactly that in Xenogears. Yet another thing that bothers me is that you would approach me in exactly the same way you did that game, with random ass scumreads. Of course I'm going to blow up on you. I really fucking hate baseless reads. It's ridiculous that you think that means anything.

All I got from this wall is that you're acknowledging mastin is playing similar to how he played as town, you're acknowledging you have absolutely no idea how to read him, but you don't care, and you aren't putting forth good reasons for thinking he's scum (rather, you're creating noise that distracts - like the above)

In post 1376, MastinSSK wrote:Except it isn't? It's the exact argument a scum-me would make to save my ass against players I know I'm caught against. Bring up weaknesses in my play (that are mostly true regardless of my alignment), bring up past games that show said weaknesses, appeal to said past games as comparisons, say "this is that, not this", and basically, appeal to aspects of my play in the current game that I specifically manipulated knowing about my own meta better than any other player.

Mastin sees it. It is, at best, a null post, but really, I think the post is exactly the sort of thing scum-Cephrir would write, so I'm leaning more towards it being a scum post than a null post.

In post 1381, Kagura wrote:Even if he is scum, how is it in any way more pro-town to rely entirely on the reads of an unconfirmed player than to let the game progress normally?

-b

Horrible post

How the fuck do you think mafia is played?

In post 1382, The Fox and the Hound wrote:This is impossible to respond to. You are basically devolving into arguing that I am scum because I don't sound like scum. There is nothing I can do with that.

Firstly, I don't believe mastin was asking you to do anything with it. Secondly, it's not calling you scum because you don't look like scum; it's calling you scum because you're doing something that scum would do (selectively pick things out and pretend there are similarities to your town game and differences between this and your scum game.

In post 1382, The Fox and the Hound wrote:This is scum confidence, it is that simple.

Do you literally know nothing about how mastin plays? Because your posting actually looks like scum confidence. Mastin's looks like mastin-posting.

In post 1385, Just Sheep Us wrote:muffin can fake apathy very well as scum (see 169).

Apparently not that well since I got lynched there anyway!

(But let's ignore that part)

In post 1392, Just Sheep Us wrote:But I don't think town muffin/nati would see the game so nearly identically.

I'm not actually sure you even know what our reads are, because Nati and I aren't even reading the game identically, let alone Mastin and I. We have some reads we agree on, and some we disagree on, and if you were following you'd know that. Just because we agree on a few key reads for similar reasons does not mean we're reading the game identically.

Further, once I've established a town read on mastin, I tend to ignore the bad pushes (because I know they are mastin-pushes rather than scum-pushes) but I don't even see the bad pushes you're talking about. What are you specifically referring to here?

In post 1395, AngryPidgeon wrote:Ok I would understand if you guys just had a hydra QT that you use for everything. But why did you start calling it the hydra QT, for this game

You wouldnt do that unless there was more than one QT. Its a subconscious thing. So what is this other QT you posted in for this game

This is p awful

In post 1396, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:Ceph isn't you.

I'm going to hold tight onto this read.

So is it a meta-based read, then? Or just a, "I'm going to ignore logical counter-points and say I'm right anyway because I'm a wizard!" read?

In post 1399, The Fox and the Hound wrote:How's that not using meta working for you, oh just fine actually since this meta is not even correct

Trying to explain why I am not scum is not alignment indicative and never will be

It's not that you "explained why you're not scum" (you didn't), it's the way in which you did it that makes you scum.

And no, explaining why you're not scum isn't alignment indicative and that's not what mastin was saying, sooooooooooooooooooo YEAH

In post 1404, AngryPidgeon wrote:Suddenly saying "the QT.. FOR THIS GAME" means there is more than one QT and you felt the need to subconsciously specify which Nacho/Bork QT you were posting in. The one for this game. The scum QT. The OTHER GAME Qt is probably, you know, the zelda one.

This push is still p awful

Reeks of scum trying to find a "slip" to comment on

In post 1410, The Fox and the Hound wrote:The only player in this game actually deserving of being called obvtown is Tammy.

Personally I think F-16 is almost as strongly town, but it's not "obv" or everyone would agree to it.

I don't actually think Tammy looks as obvtown as people make her out to be, but I don't have a scum read on her atm. I think the direction of a lot of her posts is pretty bad, and she's not really involved in a way that looks town, but I see some posts here and there that look kinda townish, if I squint. I'm not particularly interested in pushing her since I expect a majority of the player list is going to want to NK her at some point if she is actually town, so that'll sort itself out eventually anyway

Nati, on the other hand, seems to think she's really blatantly scum. And he's reading her based off tone or something I think? Not sure. WE HAVEN'T TALKED IN A WHILE AND I DON'T THINK HE PLANS TO READ THIS BULLSHIT

As for F-16, same deal. I think he's town but there are a lot of weird things that are putting me off calling him strongly town, and again, Nati has the exact opposite opinion here.

In post 1414, Titan wrote:I didn't really like the "I feel lost so much meta I don't get" dealio. Prohawk has played in the last two tales games, and that's been the majority of the meta stuff save some more nominal things.

IAWTP and it's what specifically pinged me about Prohawk's post at that point in time. It felt like he was just trying to make up some bullshit reason for why he wasn't engaged in the game. It's similar to what I did in 169, actually, where I pretended to be overwhelmed and I really wasn't.

In post 1417, AngryPidgeon wrote:This game does not look like town PV btw.

IAWTP as well

Really don't get the PV town reads, especially since nothing he's doing looks to be coming from a town mindset. One thing I did as I followed the Dark Ages game is monitor PV's posting because I really wanted to be able to distinguish between his antitown town play and his scum play and one of the pointers I am using for distinguishing between the two is the sorts of analysis he does. And this game I'm not feeling a town approach to his analyses.

In post 1424, Titan wrote:But can you really say this about mastin with a straight face after anything goes?

I can and I will. I said this in AOT. I said this in the Open Hydra game. Mastin makes his alignment reallllllllly fucking obvious to anyone who knows how to tell the difference between his scum and town games. I can't really help it if some people just don't have a clue how to do this, but I can say that mastin makes his alignment very, very obvious (far more than any other player I play with, IMO)

It baffles me that people can read you but cannot read mastin. *shrug*

In post 1434, AngryPidgeon wrote:Town: Tammy, RBD
Probably Town: Mac, MastinSSK, Orcinus, Red gyarados?
I don't know, leaning town?: Foxhound, Stalin, LB
Less than Town: Peregrine, F-16, Kagura
Needs to die regardless of alignment: GIF
The rest: Cupcake, Clyton, Katsuki, Sheep Us

I find this reads list really fucking weird

Especially given the stuff you're saying about certain players at this point. Also I'm probably the player you have the least experience with in this player list, but you seem to have a lot of confidence in your read on me

In post 1445, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:50 shades of Christ what a scumpost.

-Beli

No, Beli, why do you do this?

I don't want to have to start calling you bellend

:<

In post 1446, Yukari Yakumo wrote:I agree.
VOTE: MastinSSK

In post 1450, Titan wrote:I don't know what it is, but I'm far more likely to join your wagon than the fox and the hound. That's for sure!

Why? What about FoxHound looks townier than Mastin?

In post 1451, CarbonFiber wrote:You've seen me play as town before, right? You think I wouldn't have five solid townreads by post 450?

-FT

Was that your post or F16's? I assumed it was F16, and I do not think he'd have so many solid town reads so quickly. Did you guys discuss them and, if so, were they 5 reads you mutually agreed were solid, so much so that you were fine with, in your words, using PoE to find 4 scum in the remaining 11 players?

Also, at the time of this post (Wed April 9) I had no completed games with you, so I dunno where you were pulling this from.

In post 1454, Kagura wrote:I was gonna vote you before I was pinged by the Fox!

Then you really do suck at reading me!

In post 1466, Kagura wrote:No, I unvoted in case Tammy was actually crying.
I've always been willing to give people as much room as they'd like to talk: that doesn't mean that I still don't think they are scum.

Desp quite literally said in thread that you bought Tammy's AtE and he still thought Tammy was scum but you didn't.

In post 1480, Kagura wrote:I feel Muffin would be less likely to constantly troll as scum than as town, but that's not really based in any sort of evidence or reality. I still wouldn't be unhappy voting them, still reading though.

OK. Just to make this clear, what you're calling "trolling" isn't _really_ trolling since it's not like I'm being deliberately anti-town in some way, I'm just having a bit of fun with my posts. It's also not an alignment-based thing, as much as people want to insist it is, and it certainly isn't something I couldn't do as scum. Trolling would be more like what I did in the beginning of Xenosaga (especially re: Brian wagon) which potentially be called anti-town (thus trolling) but even that is something I think I could get away with as scum with the right sway.

But I'm not really trolling here. There are some posts that I wrote knowing they weren't adding anything to the game (short posts with no content in them, or the Captain's Log post for example) but a majority of my posts are pretty fucking game-relevant. Why don't you have an opinion on them?

In post 1482, CarbonFiber wrote:I am seeing Fox and Bro-Desp as town with Mastin/Muffin/AP scum.

Oh, goodie, I cannot wait to read the explanations for this one. Should be fucking hilarious.

In post 1482, CarbonFiber wrote:Fox's reactions to the pressure on them felt incredibly genuine and most of their posting so far is relatable and makes sense. Their Disney picture presenting the Rancid vote was hilarious and natural.

This actually made me do a double-take. In what way was Cephrir's reaction to the suspicion of them natural? Instead of an actual town reaction, like I dunno, calling the fact that Mastin wasn't presenting solid reasons bullshit, or I dunno, actually giving reasons to think Mastin is scum, they're instead just going with the "create as much noise as possible and hope people don't realise that's what we're doing" routine.

I also do not believe for one second that you've never seen scum make a similar post to that "Disney picture" one. Like. Seriously? How fucking naive are you?

In post 1482, CarbonFiber wrote:BRO and Desp's reads match mine very closely, I don't have a read on BRO yet but I can see eye to eye with Desp.

Since when do reads aligning make for a good reason to call someone else town? When I'm scum I specifically tailor my reads to align with other players going with the flow is a good way to avoid suspicion.

Holy shit. Again. Do not believe you are this naive.

Why so much defense of FoxHound and DespBro here when what you should be doing is explaining why you think we're scum with Mastin AND AP?

In post 1486, Just Sheep Us wrote:That reads as town b/c it demonstrates a lack of groundedness and defined objectives that scum-AP would have (especially given that scum have day talk).

Uh, do they? Where was this stated?

In post 1503, Kagura wrote:

In post 1151, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:Don't really give a shit. Nati has basically checked out of the game because of RL and not wanting to read this shit. His last post was 676 (last Friday) and prior to that 441 (last Tuesday). And considering I didn't even intend to play this game, and

I'm the head that nobody is ever going to town read no matter what I do, I've lost interest in even attempting to look town here.

I want this group of players to burn with fucking fire: {AP, despbro, foxhound, PV, GIF}. And I've been wanting this for a while

If you really want to try and lynch me, despbro, I'll 1v1 you tomorrow

Where did this come from?

I'm getting a little fucking tired of seeing every reads list in every game I'm in, regardless of alignment, not include me in any place except null (or possible null-scum for ~reasons~) - i mean, even when i think i'm being really fucking transparent in all of my fucking posts, apparently people have trouble reading it. OK, I get it, I've burned some people before, but it's seriously fucking annoying. If you want to know where it's coming from (even prior to 1543 ending, though I think that was partially where my frustration was coming from) it's because I don't think there's anything I could possibly do that's going to convince anyone I'm town if they simply don't want to be convinced. Which makes me apathetic as fuck. I didn't want to play this game, but Nati asked me to. I didn't want to play it because I'm over games with this player list. Not because I don't enjoy playing with you guys (in general, I have nothing against you); but because it's so fucking tiring having such a fucking high mountain to climb every time I want to get town read when I'm actually town. I'm fine with putting in that sort of effort as scum because I consider it a challenge, but as town? I don't want to have to put in mountains and mountains of effort not knowing whether I'll be successful, not knowing whether it's going to even make a difference or whether it's just going to be fucking ignored because "lol muffin could totally do that as scum". There are some things I legitimately don't think I can do as scum, and while I don't really want to talk about them in detail, I'm hoping people figure it out at some point because I'm getting fucking sick of this shit.

So yeah, when I saw the multiple reads lists in this game that didn't include my name anywhere (literally; go read every single reads list in this game and try to find my name. you can't, except for maybe one or two recently) it sapped my will. It's fucking taxing. I don't like it. I don't consider myself any harder to read than, say, a player like you, but apparently people can form town or scum reads on you easily and have difficulty putting me as anything other than null.

In post 1514, Just Sheep Us wrote:You realize that was probably a muffin-pretending-to-be-nati post, right?

I am both appalled and disgusted that you think I would ever do something like that

Also, all the "alt slips" bar one have been because I don't want to log into a hydra from work (so no, that wasn't me pretending to be Nati) - I was at work at the time, thus no, any RBD post then came from Nati.

In post 1527, MastinSSK wrote:

In post 1397, AngryPidgeon wrote: IM NOT GOING TO GET LYNCHED WITH THIS ROLE AND NO IM NOT CLAIMING IT.

The two are mutually exclusive?

In post 1398, AngryPidgeon wrote:This could come from either alignment and I dont see why you care so much.

The way it's done makes the difference, though. And I care as much as I do because people are letting them get away with a BS point that at BEST (KEY WORD BEING "AT BEST" MEANING CAN BE AND I THINK IS WORSE!) is null.

In post 1399, The Fox and the Hound wrote:Trying to explain why I am not scum is not alignment indicative and never will be

Again, it's the way it was done. This is something a bit difficult to describe, since it kinda ties into the magic-town stuff, about a player who either is or isn't scum. And that's part of it. A town player generally has a good idea of why they're town...but can't (or if they can, won't) point to specific things that make them town, especially not things tied to the difference/similarities between games.

In post 1417, AngryPidgeon wrote:This game does not look like town PV btw.

Nor scum-PV. Because there is no PV to be seen, yet, not really. PV not giving content isn't a scumtell; it's a nulltell. So it'll be easier to get a read on him after there is more content. (And if he doesn't give it, then he can be lynched. But it wouldn't be a lynched-for-being-scum; it'd be a policy-lynch, to stop dragging the game down with lack of contribution, a factor that can and has lost him games. Yet this isn't a D1 thing; this is a much later day, like at least D4, thing.)

In post 1424, Titan wrote:But can you really say this about mastin with a straight face after anything goes?

He can, and can even mean most of it together, too. Problem is that he probably wouldn't be, sooooooooooooooooo, yeah.

In post 1434, AngryPidgeon wrote:Town: Tammy, RBD
Probably Town: Mac, MastinSSK, Orcinus, Red gyarados?
I don't know, leaning town?: Foxhound, Stalin, LB
Less than Town: Peregrine, F-16, Kagura
Needs to die regardless of alignment: GIF
The rest: Cupcake, Clyton, Katsuki, Sheep Us

These reads don't jive with your posting. Like...I should be in the 'probably town' pile as I am, but...all your posting places me in the town pile. (For that matter, I think Mac's similar.) Vice-versa for RBD. They deserve the town spot, but all your posting is saying probably-town. Red Gyarados and orc are randomly thrown in there, too.

The bits below that also feel off. The Clyton-in-rest bit in particular.

All-in-all, this reads list feels like it could come from any AP...who has posted differently. From AP as he's posted this game, this reads list feels...

off

, in an intangible way that eludes me.

In post 1444, MastinSSK wrote:

Cephrir, Xenogears, dead QT wrote:Mastin wasn't a threat, she was a mislynch I thought I could get. And I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling kids.

^Ceph's take on me last game.
Posting quickly, be back much later.

And now that I am back, I can elaborate. Basically, this is how Cephrir viewed me last game. Someone who, in spite of scumreading him, was no threat, and in fact, he thought I was mislynchable. He's got the exact same read of me this game. He doesn't think I'm a threat. He doesn't think that my scumread on him is problematic. He thinks he can actually get a lynch on me. And this attitude towards me is, again, a large part of the reason I think he's scum. (I had better wording in my head at the time, but I can't pull past-me's reasoning up.) Basically...he's playing a con game. Again. Like he was in that game. There were a multitude of comments about him being townread, and at least one or two of them were from meta if memory serves me. Because that's what he wanted them to see.

And this game, he's doing the same thing. There are a fair number of people townreading him, a LOT from meta, because that's what he wants them to see. Instead of him actually being town, he's made himself look like town. That's basically the main reason AP's scum, too, because AP's done the same damn thing. Yes. They look good, because they put effort into looking good. No, they aren't actually good. Because that wasn't their goal. They aren't aiming to be town; they're aiming to do a good job of looking town. That's my read of them, of their posting, of their situation.

IAWTP

(And I only quoted this to pad the length of this wall, lolololololol. Like I do agree with almost everything here, but yeah, didn't really need to quote this. But seriously, who the fuck is still reading this at this point? I'm pretty sure I could start ranting about penises or something at this point and nobody would even know. I think I'm going to do that, actually).

I have a penis. I'm now going to sing the penis song. It goes like this: penis, penis, penis, penis, penis, penis, penis, penis. Not a great song, but whatever, it's catchy. Once it's in your head, it stays there for a while (until it goes flaccid? HA HA I'm hilarious)

I think Mastin is about the only one who's going to catch me talking about this, and only because mastin might browse through this post looking for mentions of "mastin". But if mastin has any sense, this won't be quoted. Let other people find it.

It's conveniently about midway into my wall so I don't think anyone is going to read it. I suppose I could make very sure by drawing an ascii penis. 8====D (Not to scale). Nobody is going to see this ever, anyway. Penis, once more, for good measure

In post 1532, The Fox and the Hound wrote:Someone did mention that it was possible I would fake this as scum and maybe it is? But I don't think it's something I would do? I don't know.

If I wasn't coming off a game where scum tried to suggest this same thing, I might be more inclined to believe this

In post 1533, AngryPidgeon wrote:AP is a townread for me.

Fucking blatantly lying. I know you have role information that suggests otherwise. L A FUCKING L

In post 1533, AngryPidgeon wrote:

In post 1492, zMuffinMan wrote:also lol at despbro thinking me "buddying" mastin is because im scum

gonna take that as a scum claim if bro is the one putting forth that argument

Why?
-Muffin

Because BRO's seen my approach to mastin, across multiple games. Even if he wasn't reading Xenosaga, for example, I'm sure you mentioned it to him somewhere (because you were scum reading me for a long time in that game, for much the same reason, but I shrugged it off because I know you haven't seen how I usually approach mastin). BRO on the other hand has no excuse for this. He's seen me, multiple times, read mastin off very few posts (sometimes even a single post) correctly (100% of the time). If BRO is the one trying to push the angle that it's weird for me to "buddy" mastin here, then I'm calling bullshit since it's obviously a fabricated read.

I also, in general, don't understand where their read on me is coming from, but that's another issue altogether. It would help if they explained it, but since they don't want to *shrug* I'm assuming guilty until proven innocent here

In post 1536, AngryPidgeon wrote:Like people start calling you suspicious and we get this "BTW IM ACTUALLY A GOOD ROLE" lobbed out for no reason.

Uh, er, um, no? I think he elaborated on that because someone specifically talked about his role possibly being useless. So uh, yeah. Not seeing where this is coming from.

Also don't really get this if you're town reading mastin (and all signs point to this being the case).

In post 1545, Mac wrote:but I don't think I've ever townread muffinman so fucking hard following the series of rage posts on 47.

Well, I'm sure it's going to disappoint you when I tell you that I wasn't actually raging, it was fake rage I was experimenting with because I wanted to see if anyone would town read me for it.

Apparently it worked. So yay me, I guess?

Not that anyone is going to read this, but if they do, sorry? I am actually town but I was never angry at this game (a little frustrated that people never seem to be able to town read me, but not really). Nati said he was sorry about it in the hydra QT and I had to explain to him that I wasn't really angry. lol Nati, lol. If I were angry at you, I'd have said so in the hydra QT, thillybilly.

In post 1548, Mac wrote:They're still null because I think their reasons for pushing RBD are poor, but that post was good.

Not you too, Mac,
You've been led astray!
They're not town, they're scum
Don't turn a blind eye to their play!

In post 1552, Red Gyarados wrote:Just. so. many. words. to. read. through.

~Brian

HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE
HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE
HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE
HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE

In post 1556, PeregrineV wrote:If you mean the playerlist its because there are a shitload of hydras and I use my ISO like a QT thread to keep my thoughts. At some sorry point I'll have to crack through the hydra heads and look for tells, and isoing the mod+me+another player just for playerlist is a pain.

It seems far simpler to keep the names in a notepad / word document. Especially since then you don't have to keep scrolling back to the post to find out the names?

... ... ... Don't really believe you legitimately think this makes sense.

In post 1559, PeregrineV wrote:

In post 1222, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:PV is totally disengaged from the game in a way that he usually isn't when he's town. There's no signs of effort. There's no signs of analysis. There's no signs of anything that he does when he's town. The way he's disengaged from the game here reminds me of how he was playing in the recently finished mafiassk large. It's the same lack of analysis. The same lack of effort. I'm pretty sure PV is scum here and I know he looks like scum in every single fucking game but this is so blindingly obvious that I don't know how others cannot see it, let alone think he's town.

I used to be "hard town". What happened?

I am pretty sure you have me confused with someone else? I have not once called you town in this game. I am pretty sure Nati hasn't either. I know I haven't called you town because at no stage of this game have I thought that anything you've posted looked like it came from a town mindset.

In post 1562, PeregrineV wrote:Since you are REALLY sticking with this, when you gladiate, if it take 8 to lynch the other guy, does it take only 7 to lynch you? Or, is your hated modifer "always on", as it it ALWAYS takes one less than normal to lynch you?

Um, two things here:

Why would I answer this question? In what possible way could it benefit you or anybody else to know this information if I haven't already deemed it fit to share.

Is knowing the answer to this question going to advance the game in any way, shape or form? Because I can't see this as anything other than role fishing, and I cannot possibly fathom how my answer to this question would do anything to change how you're viewing the game at the moment. So, uh, yeah

Basically, I refuse to answer any questions that are role-related this game; when I deem it necessary, I might share some information, but I will not answer questions about it other than on a need-to-know basis.

In post 1564, Yukari Yakumo wrote:Oh and RBD in AP pile

massive amounts of :shifty eyes: here

(Also the only real resistance to this is coming from derps. Like F16, DespBro and FoxHound, and there's a preeeeeeeeeeettty decent chance of scum in those names sooooooooooooo yeah)

In post 1567, PeregrineV wrote:Ahh good. Praytell, what does town PV look like?

Not fucking like this, and town-PV probably wouldn't ask a question like this, phrased in this way

There's a severe lack of direction and analysis in your posts, PV. Sup with that?

In post 1570, PeregrineV wrote:Ok softball game to go to. Not liking Fox/Hound wagon at this point.

Why not?

In post 1579, Titan wrote:I've also realized that if mastin and the rancid pirates are town then the scum team has made a deviation from my last several games from attacking me for weird reasons and are instead calling me town. (Though the attack by those two was fucking weird.). IF that's the case then I'm not sure how to distinguish right now between town recognizing me as town and scum calling me town because that's what they're supposed to do. It's fucking with my head to start looking cross eyed at people calling me town.

OK. So since I'm town and mastin is almost certainly town, if you are town, scum aren't attacking you. What are you going to do about it?

I'd rather not have to read you saying stuff like this; do something about it or don't talk about it.

In post 1586, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:OK, I don't want to kill PV anymore

Why not? What changed your mind about him? Because none of his posts prior to this one looked town at all, so I don't get where the change in the read comes from.

In post 1608, Kagura wrote:JSU - I have a big negative connection between them and RBD and that is probably about it.

? Does this mean you don't see us as the same alignment?

In post 1610, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:ns' activity really has been low sitewide recently from what I've seen. I'm going to wait and see what he brings to the game over the weekend I guess.

So now the weekend has come and gone, where you at with this?

'coz notscience completely disappearing is making me get all weird on him atm

In post 1617, Kagura wrote:I do think her gladiator strat is crap, but I don't know.

I'm actually thinking of doing a strawpoll to decide whether or not we gladiate this game.

Except I think I already know the general consensus and FUCK THE GENERAL CONSENSUS

In post 1632, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:I hate mastin's attitude towards F/H and the logical fallacy that is painting Ceph's attitude towards her lynchability as independent of gamestate. The townmastin I know is smarter than that and I don't think mastin actually believes that harseshit this game, but false face must hide what false heart doth know .

I think you're somewhat misunderstanding mastin's stance here, and since mastin's stance here is somewhat similar to mine, I don't really get it.

I also loled at the comment about town-mastin being smarter than this, but whatevs

In post 1634, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:It didn't give me quite the same level of scumvibe, but I think that's because of xenosaga. there are some parallels between ceph's reads in the early game here and his day 1 in xenosaga, but ceph is a consummate scum player. I think it's actually more of a heartfelt townie thing that scum-ceph would avoid so soon after that game.

Thing is, I don't think Cephrir really had a choice about it. A distinct change in the way he approaches his read on mastin would set off more alarm bells than the way he's done it here. So what I'm seeing here is Cephrir thinking he would be scum reading mastin and so there is the scum read. But I'm not looking at this deeply because I could see this coming from scum- or town-Ceph. What bothers me is his reasoning here and his attitude towards mastin and mastin's read on him. I say he's hiding behind a mask of thinking mastin is scummy every game because that's all I'm seeing; no analysis, no attempts to discern mastin's alignment, just a scum read and a lot of noise. And this is why I don't think Cephrir is town here.

The fact he's doing it twice in a row is only because he thinks he would do it as town. Also maybe because he thinks "lol wouldn't do it twice in a row" is a good defense. But whatever.

Key point is you shouldn't get lost in reasoning like this and should instead look at it objectively.

I would like to see town in Cephrir's posting, but I can't. And I don't see how others can.

In post 1641, Kagura wrote:But I feel like mastin feels, well, 'flat' (sorry to use such a loaded word after that whole thing) as scum or gets defensive or tunnels or something else opaque and distracting and doesn't really absorb the gamestate.

THIS IS KIND OF TRUE AND A GOOD WAY TO DISCERN MASTIN'S ALIGNMENT

IF MORE PEOPLE SAW HOW OBVIOUS THIS WAS, THIS GAME WOULD BE EASY PICKINGS

In post 1666, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:where the rubber met the road in the last game we played together as town, when it came to who got lynched, my reads were more accurate than yours most of the time.

What is it that I should be seeing? What should tell me that THIS time I should subsume my reads and follow yours?

I don't think you should be trusting reads blindly (though I would like it a lot if you did!) but since you're not really engaging mastin (or me, but hey, I haven't really been involved in this game to be engaged with) on why you think he's wrong and why you think you're right, you're really just doing it wrong.

I think mastin is right. I think I've explained pretty clearly where I disagree with your read and why I think you're wrong. What do you think about that? (LOL I'm still asking questions here as though anyone is still reading this post, wtf is wrong with me?)

Also don't think your reading accuracy in one game means shit. My reading accuracy in 1543 was prettttttttttty fucking shit (though that game was somewhat of an anomaly because my reads in other games lately have been pretty accurate for the most part, but *shrug* shit happens and i'm not above having really, really off games). Does that mean you're going to discount my reads this game?

In post 1678, MastinSSK wrote:And zMuffinman is someone who I generally can read well, too

:/ I'd call this bullshit, but when you call me town and scum in every game, I can't realllly argue against it.

In post 1681, MastinSSK wrote:Instead of seeing a town-AP, I'm seeing an AP-pretending-to-be-town. The actions he do vaguely look town. The words he says vaguely sound town. But how they're done, how they're said, simply...doesn't.

IAWTP x a million. AP's post have this look-kinda-maybe-townish-on-the-surface feel to them but I think that comes from being a decent player as either alignment more than anything. What I'm not seeing is town (oh God I'm going to hate myself for using this word) trajectories in the way he's approaching reads and talking to people here. For example, he seems to have you as a strong town read (or strongish? I don't know, really) on you but his posts towards you don't come from that mindset and he seems to be criticising you and wavering on you more than someone would if they were as town as he suggests his read on you is. Other reads feel kinda similar as well. I also think his approach to certain things is a little weird (the bork QT thing sticks out as a major example... as does him calling himself obvtown for his entrance)

In post 1684, MastinSSK wrote:Basically, their stances this game have been fairly off, as has their reasoning and their interactions, and how people interact with them.

Also agree with this assessment of DespBro. It's the same thing I think atm. Desp is pushing this weird angle of us being scum with AP and doing scum theatre bullshit, but I don't believe he believes that. And if he did, he'd be far more vocal about it, because he knows I could probably get away with it if I were scum. And BRO's reads just haven't made sense to me at all.

In post 1689, CarbonFiber wrote:In particular, I liked how he went from having mild concerns in Post 383 towards a full-out case and vote in Post 1165

What did you like about this? Because I'd say if it was eating at him since 383, he should have done something about it far earlier than he did. Why wait 800 posts for something that is essentially just rehashing what he thought 800 posts earlier except this time with (apparently) a stronger scum read (which he drops almost immediately in favour of going back to attacking mastin)

In post 1689, CarbonFiber wrote:Even more than the content, the ostentatious tone with which he cast the vote felt incredibly bold and not at all "safe" the way Mastin is portraying Fox's posting to be

I read it as playful, not bold. It's more a null thing than anything, but I'm interested in specifically why you think this is more likely town than scum.

In post 1689, CarbonFiber wrote:I didn't feel like voting Muffin's slot who is one of the most difficult lynches on the site to be either safe or opportunistic (and no, being hated doesn't make him a significantly easier lynch).

You're fucking kidding me, right? Not only did I have to wade through pages of bullshit in Xenosaga of people saying the exact same thing about mollie pushing me (she was scum there, no surprise) but really? I am probably the *safest* vote for any scum player specifically BECAUSE of how hard it is to actually lynch me (and yes, I also explained this in Xenosaga). It not only gives them someone to attack over multiple day phases, because it's pretty difficult to lynch me when I'm actually town, but it's also rather easy to play on because paranoia about me isn't exactly uncommon.

Scum-mollie pushed me because (a) I was attacking her and was thus a threat, but more importantly (b) because it gave her something to do so she could look like she was being busy. Why would the same thing happening here be a town tell for someone?

As for the meta examples you provide, fucking lol. You're asserting that it feels the same as his town games, and it doesn't feel the same as his scum games, but you're not talking about why you think this. I personally don't believe he actually believed his reasons for thinking I'm scum here (SEE: HIM BACKTRACKING ON IT AND TRYING TO APPEAL TO AFTER UNVOTING SHORTLY AFTER VOTING ME). Which is what you describe as his scum meta. Go figure.

I don't give two shits if you're gonna call it "natural" sounding or something like that. You're seeing what you want to see rather than what's there, and since you haven't done a good job of explaining why it's natural, I'm going to ignore this until you do.

In post 1699, Just Sheep Us wrote:Yeah, there's often 1, maybe 2 scum in the lurker group, but being able to tell scum-lurk from town-lurk is a skill that exists

(a) How the fuck is this relevant to anything? You weren't saying "it's possible they're scum lurkers or town lurkers", you were directly saying my reads are shit because they're town.

(b) If you can tell the difference between scum lurk and town lurk, then explain why they're town lurking rather than scum lurking?

Also there are times when the vast majority of scum is in the lurkers. Sooooooooooo saying "how often does it happen?" means nothing. It's dependent on who's actually scum, and who's actually scum is dependent on RNG, soooooo what's your fucking point?

In post 1700, Just Sheep Us wrote:So are you going to disagree that saying that an entrance "100% cannot be town" is bad logic when that entrance has been used by the same player as town?

First of all, you're blatantly misrepresenting what I actually said. I not only did not say that his entrance 100% couldn't be a town entrance, but I was arguing that the way he did it and the way he talked about it weren't town - not that he hadn't done it as town in the past.

And you've yet to argue against my actual point here, so I'm just going to assume you're scum trying to look like you have an actual point here.

In post 1702, Just Sheep Us wrote:Since apparently RBD ain't happenin'

Mastin ain't happening either

In post 1706, AngryPidgeon wrote:Sorry mastin, you can't have your scumread on me and vouch for my read on you at the same time. That is really really scummy.

@mastin, this is an example of what I mean about weird interactions given his supposed read on you. If he's town reading you, a post like this shouldn't exist (unless he's not as good at reading you as he claims he is). If he's scum reading you, then why isn't he all over lynching you. And if he's null or unsure on you, then wow? Dunno why he put you in the probably town list in the first place if that's the case.

Plus I don't believe he really thinks this makes sense. I would, for example, have to read mastin as town regardless of my alignment if mastin is town, because as town I would see it and as scum I would have to pretend I see it. So yeah, my read could be trusted unless someone thinks we're scum together, regardless of what my actual alignment is.

In post 1709, AngryPidgeon wrote:Everything she's posted -could- be from town mastin and I'm a little disappointed in the complete lack of justifications, its like mastin coasting on being mastin at that point.

How much of mastin's posts are you actually reading?

In post 1714, Titan wrote:He feels orchestrated and his reads feel fabricated; it doesn't feel like he's processing this game in an organic way without knowing people's alignments

Elaborate

'coz I get the exact opposite feeling about mastin's posts and I want to know which of mastin's reads you feel this way about

In post 1727, Just Sheep Us wrote:I love players that have functional policies on me for no discernible reason!

What does this mean? And/or do you think notscience is voting you for policy reasons?

In post 1735, The Fox and the Hound wrote:I could say the same about this post. Why does it matter?

It doesn't. I was clearly joking. I don't see how you didn't get I was clearly joking given every other post of mine at the time. I don't understand why you felt the need to comment on this. I don't see how you could have possibly thought it was a serious complaint, given the obvious inherent hypocrisy. Holy. Fucking. Shit.

In post 1738, Kagura wrote:Additionally, RBD, if you gladiate JSU tomorrow I will vote you and I will make you die.

You should see how many fucks I give. Especially since I'm going to kill you N1 so LOL DON'T GIVE ANY FUCKS AT ALL.

In post 1739, CarbonFiber wrote:That leaves MastinSSK, Rancid, AP, Clyton, GIF, and PeregrineV.

Is this now your PoE list that isn't going to change despite there being 3 scum in that list? That is, of course, assuming I am right about all of AP, GIF, PV being scum.

In post 1741, AngryPidgeon wrote:Cupcake should not be a strong townread for anyone

He's not a particularly *strong* town read for me, but he has been a town read of sorts for a while now. Do you think he's scum or...? What was the point of this?

-Nati

OK that's enough content for three days

See you all D4

Peace

Who are we voting?

In post 1758, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:

In post 1326, Titan wrote:

In post 1150, Lord Business wrote:I had RBD as town lean.

There appears to be no direct tactical reasoning to their trolling, they occasionally seen to return to the game point and if I can be a hypocrite for a moment the meta of both of the heads suggest they are quite relaxed in the game and I believe one of them was the mafia player of the year for being strongly townread in several games as scum, whereas here the effort to gain such a read isn't there.

They also happened to agree with me over the demoralising nature of "obvtown-gate" so I currently have a bias in their favour.

That one head your talking about also didn't try to get town read in NY169.

Yeah, I did, kinda, just in slightly different ways than I normally try to as scum

In post 1328, Just Sheep Us wrote:

In post 1245, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:Hey BRO

Just so we're clear

You think we claimed Hated Miller Gladiator out the gate because... we're scum who decided claiming an extremely negative utility role that was easily provable was a gooooooooood idea because... DERP DERP DERP I'M BRO AND I'M HOPING NOBODY THINKS ABOUT THIS AND THIS MISLYNCH GOES THROUGH WITHOUT ME LOOKING OBVSCUM

last i checked you were completely off the radar for the first fifty pages of the game

so...???

I was "off the radar" because people didn't realise it was a serious claim. I clarified it was a serious claim, so your objection here is pathetically weak.

I was also off the radar because nobody had the balls to commit to a fucking read on me because that's how shit goes now apparently, but it's not like I wasn't in the thick of things

But since you have a scum read on me, how about you talk about the reasons you think I'm scum

In post 1330, Just Sheep Us wrote:

In post 1260, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:Because not only is he trying to pass it off as an "obvtown" entrance (because he knows he's done it as town before, but he also isn't stupid enough to realise it's something he could fake as scum, so it's not a fucking obvtown entrance, and him calling it obvtown is because he's hoping people draw the parallels and call it obvtown because he's done it as town before) but I think it's an entrance he specifically did as scum trying to imitate his town game because I already thought the fucking slot was scum prior the the replacement.

man that plan really wor--oh wait, no it didn't

so do you think ap is incompetent? why do you think scum-ap would tailor his game to you, of all people in this playerlist?

I don't have any opinion on AP as a player. I've played with him twice before (both times town) and he was average both times. I'm not sure what he's capable of as scum, but you're missing the point completely or you're just playing dumb here.

He used an opening he's used before as town, correct? You're following so far? Stop me at the point I've lost you because I know I'm talking to a special person here and I don't want to go too fast. Let's think about why he would do this. It's possible he's town and thought, "OMG, a good way to enter this game is to use an opening I've done as town before, an opening that I could easily fake as scum, and then berate people when they don't think I'm obvtown because of my opening posts! I'll call them really, really obvtown and criticise anyone who disagrees because that is a sensible thing to do!" You seem to think this is what he did. But again, I know you're a... very special person... so I'm not particularly surprised you think this. I think the more likely scenario is that he's scum and thought, "hey I'm going to imitate an opening that most of the player list has seen me do as town before and then criticise anyone who thinks it isn't a town entrance because they know I've done it as town before!" <- not only did he actually do this, but he didn't even have to bring up the past game he did it as town for comparison because it was an unconscious link that... special players like yourself... made. this is exactly the sort of thing i did in gif's touhou game with the way i approached the gaiden lynch D1; i didn't want to point out myself that it was unlike what i've done as scum in the past, i let cabd point out my usual bussing meta and then i let YOU (desp) point out that he was, in fact, wrong. i think AP was doing a similar thing here.

In post 1333, Just Sheep Us wrote:

In post 1306, AngryPidgeon wrote:Gonna be honest, as much as I want to believe BRO is right about me, I really think hes going for townpoints with this gladiator push. I think he thinks its expected of him? Or hes just trying to get me on his side? BRO is an objectively good player and pushing gladiators because you got gladiated by scum once is not objectively good play.

what fucking townpoints are available for pushing a gladiator claim like 2 weeks after they claimed it when the slot has had less than zero pressure on it?

i think you're doing it not because you think it will give you town points, but because you think it's expected of you (as town, you would push a lynch on a gladiator claim is what you think. so you are not analysing things in a town way and instead you're blindly pushing this)

In post 1338, Kagura wrote:

CF wrote:If that's the case, his annoyance is misplaced. He could maybe address the people creating noisy back-and-forths as opposed to someone like me who is keeping noise to a minimum. There is plenty of stuff that I haven't responded to and don't intend to because I don't believe it will help me solve the game. Most of my back-and-forths are questions, conversations, or analysis/explanations of reads.

This is a really town post.

-b

No, it isn't.

In post 1341, The Fox and the Hound wrote:Look. I am not good at conveying why things mean to me what they do. My townread stands.

So in spite of me pointing out that your reasoning is completely flawed, you're like, "Nope, townread stands!"

K

And you wonder why people don't read you as town

In post 1341, The Fox and the Hound wrote:If you can't handle the fact that I tend to come up with strange and seemingly illogical reasons when I'm pushed for them, you should hang me every game.

It's not that your reasons are illogical, it's that they're blatantly wrong and you don't seem to care

I suppose that does actually make them illogical... hmm

How the fuck should I be reading you as town when you don't care that you're wrong?

In post 1341, The Fox and the Hound wrote:If you're town, I would like you to iso me again, try to be just a teensy bit objective, and tell me you still think I'm scum, and why would be appreciated but is optional. I happen to think the position that I am scum is not only untenable but becoming increasingly so.

I'm not going to ISO you. I can tell you why I think you're scum off the top of my head. All your pushes this game have come from a place that doesn't make sense from a town perspective. Your mastin push is a really good example of this (I am still not sure why you actually think mastin is scum when they're really obviously not and I see you using the excuse that you always think mastin looks scummy to hide behind in the same way you did in Xenosaga) but all of your other pushes come from a place that makes just as little sense. The vote on me? What the fuck was that bullshit? Honestly. Like wow. I know it was the DV head but fucking wow. One of the most hilariously bad votes I've ever seen placed on me. And when I pointed out how fucking illogical it was, you guys just shrugged it off and said, "Nope, still not wrong!" Really. Fucking. Town. Of you guys.

In post 1341, The Fox and the Hound wrote:I don't understand how you can even think that I should clearly think Mastin is town, because they've given me basically no reason to at all and plenty to think the opposite, ie pushing for an easy mislynch on me like it's literally a stronger conviction than most people's religions and still can't even pretend to have a reason excpet "this is soooooooooooooo scum" as though having a sufficient number of vowels in a word makes it extra convincing.

This is such a load of bullshit. Firstly, if this is your reason for thinking mastin is scum, then why isn't mastin justified in thinking you're scum. Because you literally have no reason for thinking mastin is scum that isn't virtually identical to why mastin thinks you're scum (but with less substance because mastin has more reasons to think you're scum than just this). Secondly, mastin is obvtown, and I don't expect you to see it (partially because you're scum and partially because you have no fucking clue how to read mastin). But what you should know is that I know how to read mastin and I'm telling you mastin isn't scum here. Instead of finding out why I think mastin isn't scum, you're ignoring it and going, "Nope, mastin scum! I'm right!" Again. Not. A. Town. Thought. Process.

Tell you what. Why don't you sum up all the reasons you think mastin is scum for me, so I have something to assess. Because so far I haven't seen any town thought processes coming from your push here. Convince me I'm wrong.

In post 1344, The Fox and the Hound wrote:Muffin. There is a chance you are town. You were in 169. Does this not look exactly, and I mean EXACTLY like what happened to me in that game.

The thing is, in that game you were making logical arguments. Your points had some merit. Your attitude was completely different. In that game you even acknowledged that the people who were scum reading you had a fucking point because you knew your play wasn't town-looking at the beginning of that game and it was only after you started putting in effort that you really came across as town looking. And even then it was different to this game because in that game you were assessing things in a town-looking way. Here? Not seeing it.

The thing is I can't give examples of something that's not there. So I can't show that you're not assessing things in the same way you were in 169. So comparing this to 169 is just dumb.

In post 1344, The Fox and the Hound wrote:If you really think it looks more like my tunnel on bulbafenix in 165, I can't help you. Because it doesn't. I actually won that argument because I got to make up nice-sounding reasons.

I actually think this is more similar to your Xenosaga play than your 169 play (I didn't, and won't, read 165 so I don't care about that). In Xenosaga, you made up similar reasons to tunnel mastin, similarly terrible reasons, while ignoring everyone pointing out that you're wrong, and hiding behind the mask of, "I always think mastin looks scummy!"

It was bullshit there, it's bullshit here.

I think you use it because mastin is an easy target to push (barely anybody reads anything mastin writes so you can look like you're having an argument with someone and know that the person you're arguing with won't be listened to)

I do not think you're taking a step back here and looking for the ways in which you could be wrong. I do not think you actually think you're right here. Or at least if you do, you could come up with better reasons for your push than you currently have.

I also think you're scum here for a reason I'd rather not talk about at this point in time but may talk about at a later time if it's convenient for me.

In post 1346, Just Sheep Us wrote:- drake and mastin both scumread him for his entrance posts; bro townreads him

No, I'm not scum reading AP for his entrance (though I do not think it was a town entrance). I'm scum reading him because I thought his predecessor was scum, and I do not think his play so far (up to p54, still catching up) looks town. The opening was one example, the back-and-forth with mastin was another.

In post 1350, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:

In post 1344, The Fox and the Hound wrote:

If anyone reads a single one of my posts this game, make it this one.

Muffin. There is a chance you are town. You were in 169. Does this not look exactly, and I mean EXACTLY like what happened to me in that game.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=400

I am not hard to win arguments against. Because I very often can't back up my actions. My stances sometimes don't make sense, and even when they do, I hardly know why I have the opinions I do.

If you really think it looks more like my tunnel on bulbafenix in 165, I can't help you. Because it doesn't. I actually won that argument because I got to make up nice-sounding reasons.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=200

I can't make those links work properly. But it really is worth bothering to look at them.

All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing. It's seeming as though the people who normally prevent me from being a free mislynch are not interested. This bothers me, but whatever. Scum appear to have figured this out. Without them I'm little better than 2008 consistent day 1 lynch cephrir. Maybe it's not the people I think it is, but they will be on this wagon. That's not a threat, it's a promise.

I feel like the gang up on me here feels exactly like 169, and I think the people I'm fighting with are going to turn out to be scum again. Please actually think about this and make this the one time you all don't completely ignore someone posthumously if I am indeed lynched today. That is all.

This is town as fuck.

No it fucking isn't. Please don't buy that shit. The first line specifically was an appeal that's similar to ones I've made as scum in the past. The content in the post is not particularly convincing either way. It's nowhere near "town as fuck".

In post 1351, Just Sheep Us wrote:AP, you realize I didn't state a town read on you until after mastin/RBD started pushing you on your entrance, right?

Why didn't you?

In post 1353, MastinSSK wrote:All-in-all, Cephrir is the type of player who you have to look at the reasoning, not the wording. And his reasoning here is basically the same thing that I used to catch him in Xenogears. He's doing things that he really shouldn't be doing if he was town. Among them, his push on me. Because in Xenogears, he knew I was town and that I wasn't giving reasoning, yet he brought it up in this game as if he had never encountered it before.

IAWTP. Except that I think Cephrir can be read off of posting style. I think his scum play is similar to mine (especially in that he knows most of the ins and outs of both his scum and town games and can therefore tailor specific aspects of it to meta players) but I think there are tonal differences that distinguish his town and scum games. I'm not extremely confident I'm picking up on the right things, but I am reading him here as scum tonally - it's a different kind of vibe to the one I was getting in the hydra open and 169.

In post 1354, Just Sheep Us wrote:RBD's scummy as

Why do you think this? Because you've still yet to really talk about it

In post 1358, MastinSSK wrote:Today, we're lynching one of {Just Sheep Us, The Fox and The Hound, AngryPidgeon}.
RBD is going to gladiate one of the two survivors.

There's no other way the days will go.

You get no choice in who we gladiate.

In post 1362, Just Sheep Us wrote:RBD scumread is because they've been buddying the fuck out of mastin at every juncture, even when she's making pushes that are terribad (like the early tammy push, the CF push, etc).

That's because I have a lot of confidence in my ability to read mastin and I have a _really_ good history of reading him correctly in 100% of the games we've been in so far. I mean, granted, even when I'm scum I have to do the same thing, but thinking I'm scum because of it is about as dumb as dumb can be. If this is BRO and he read _any_ of Xenosaga, then I'm considering this a scum claim. Because he should know I do this with mastin, he's seen my approach to mastin in many games now, this should not come as a surprise to him and he should not think this means anything about my alignment (though I would argue that I don't think I'd play it the same as scum, but *shrug*)

I mean, I literally just did the same thing in the completed Xenosaga game where I read mastin as town off his opening posts and stuck with the read the entire game despite a majority disagreeing with it. And I was town there. So...? What? Am I just scum here because ~magic~?

In post 1362, Just Sheep Us wrote:Fast forward to your entrance, and with mastin/RBD pushing something on you as scummy that's objectively null, ESPECIALLY given that you're probably the trolliest "strong" player on site, and yeah, I'm not gonna let that shit slide.

But it's not null, and I explained why it's not null when you asked me about it. Why are you ignoring that?

In post 1363, Just Sheep Us wrote:Okay I actually have to finish that paper that's due in about an hour now because I was too angry at mastin/muffin to finish it last night.

It's OK. I get upset when people peg me as scum, too. :<

In post 1369, Cephrir wrote:But, actually, I would love to talk about Xenogears, because I've been treading on fucking eggshells trying not to. Why do you think I was trying not to jump down your throat this game, it's because at first I thought you felt the same way you did in that game (i.e. "damn I see absolutely no way this can possibly be town"). I've been trying to play it off like I have substantial meta with you apart from that game but I actually pretty much don't. Anything I've claimed to know about the way you play has basically been that. You may notice that I won the argument there and came reasonably close to getting you lynched. I also scumread you in that game because I literally knew I would be jumping down your throat if I was town. And hey guess what, here I am. I know there are style issues muddying things here and I don't even give a fuck. I'm done trying to convince myself to hold back because you literally could not be scummier. For someone so concerned with how good I am at imitating my town game you sure don't seem to be considering that I was doing exactly that in Xenogears. Yet another thing that bothers me is that you would approach me in exactly the same way you did that game, with random ass scumreads. Of course I'm going to blow up on you. I really fucking hate baseless reads. It's ridiculous that you think that means anything.

All I got from this wall is that you're acknowledging mastin is playing similar to how he played as town, you're acknowledging you have absolutely no idea how to read him, but you don't care, and you aren't putting forth good reasons for thinking he's scum (rather, you're creating noise that distracts - like the above)

In post 1376, MastinSSK wrote:Except it isn't? It's the exact argument a scum-me would make to save my ass against players I know I'm caught against. Bring up weaknesses in my play (that are mostly true regardless of my alignment), bring up past games that show said weaknesses, appeal to said past games as comparisons, say "this is that, not this", and basically, appeal to aspects of my play in the current game that I specifically manipulated knowing about my own meta better than any other player.

Mastin sees it. It is, at best, a null post, but really, I think the post is exactly the sort of thing scum-Cephrir would write, so I'm leaning more towards it being a scum post than a null post.

In post 1381, Kagura wrote:Even if he is scum, how is it in any way more pro-town to rely entirely on the reads of an unconfirmed player than to let the game progress normally?

-b

Horrible post

How the fuck do you think mafia is played?

In post 1382, The Fox and the Hound wrote:This is impossible to respond to. You are basically devolving into arguing that I am scum because I don't sound like scum. There is nothing I can do with that.

Firstly, I don't believe mastin was asking you to do anything with it. Secondly, it's not calling you scum because you don't look like scum; it's calling you scum because you're doing something that scum would do (selectively pick things out and pretend there are similarities to your town game and differences between this and your scum game.

In post 1382, The Fox and the Hound wrote:This is scum confidence, it is that simple.

Do you literally know nothing about how mastin plays? Because your posting actually looks like scum confidence. Mastin's looks like mastin-posting.

In post 1385, Just Sheep Us wrote:muffin can fake apathy very well as scum (see 169).

Apparently not that well since I got lynched there anyway!

(But let's ignore that part)

In post 1392, Just Sheep Us wrote:But I don't think town muffin/nati would see the game so nearly identically.

I'm not actually sure you even know what our reads are, because Nati and I aren't even reading the game identically, let alone Mastin and I. We have some reads we agree on, and some we disagree on, and if you were following you'd know that. Just because we agree on a few key reads for similar reasons does not mean we're reading the game identically.

Further, once I've established a town read on mastin, I tend to ignore the bad pushes (because I know they are mastin-pushes rather than scum-pushes) but I don't even see the bad pushes you're talking about. What are you specifically referring to here?

In post 1395, AngryPidgeon wrote:Ok I would understand if you guys just had a hydra QT that you use for everything. But why did you start calling it the hydra QT, for this game

You wouldnt do that unless there was more than one QT. Its a subconscious thing. So what is this other QT you posted in for this game

This is p awful

In post 1396, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:Ceph isn't you.

I'm going to hold tight onto this read.

So is it a meta-based read, then? Or just a, "I'm going to ignore logical counter-points and say I'm right anyway because I'm a wizard!" read?

In post 1399, The Fox and the Hound wrote:How's that not using meta working for you, oh just fine actually since this meta is not even correct

Trying to explain why I am not scum is not alignment indicative and never will be

It's not that you "explained why you're not scum" (you didn't), it's the way in which you did it that makes you scum.

And no, explaining why you're not scum isn't alignment indicative and that's not what mastin was saying, sooooooooooooooooooo YEAH

In post 1404, AngryPidgeon wrote:Suddenly saying "the QT.. FOR THIS GAME" means there is more than one QT and you felt the need to subconsciously specify which Nacho/Bork QT you were posting in. The one for this game. The scum QT. The OTHER GAME Qt is probably, you know, the zelda one.

This push is still p awful

Reeks of scum trying to find a "slip" to comment on

In post 1410, The Fox and the Hound wrote:The only player in this game actually deserving of being called obvtown is Tammy.

Personally I think F-16 is almost as strongly town, but it's not "obv" or everyone would agree to it.

I don't actually think Tammy looks as obvtown as people make her out to be, but I don't have a scum read on her atm. I think the direction of a lot of her posts is pretty bad, and she's not really involved in a way that looks town, but I see some posts here and there that look kinda townish, if I squint. I'm not particularly interested in pushing her since I expect a majority of the player list is going to want to NK her at some point if she is actually town, so that'll sort itself out eventually anyway

Nati, on the other hand, seems to think she's really blatantly scum. And he's reading her based off tone or something I think? Not sure. WE HAVEN'T TALKED IN A WHILE AND I DON'T THINK HE PLANS TO READ THIS BULLSHIT

As for F-16, same deal. I think he's town but there are a lot of weird things that are putting me off calling him strongly town, and again, Nati has the exact opposite opinion here.

In post 1414, Titan wrote:I didn't really like the "I feel lost so much meta I don't get" dealio. Prohawk has played in the last two tales games, and that's been the majority of the meta stuff save some more nominal things.

IAWTP and it's what specifically pinged me about Prohawk's post at that point in time. It felt like he was just trying to make up some bullshit reason for why he wasn't engaged in the game. It's similar to what I did in 169, actually, where I pretended to be overwhelmed and I really wasn't.

In post 1417, AngryPidgeon wrote:This game does not look like town PV btw.

IAWTP as well

Really don't get the PV town reads, especially since nothing he's doing looks to be coming from a town mindset. One thing I did as I followed the Dark Ages game is monitor PV's posting because I really wanted to be able to distinguish between his antitown town play and his scum play and one of the pointers I am using for distinguishing between the two is the sorts of analysis he does. And this game I'm not feeling a town approach to his analyses.

In post 1424, Titan wrote:But can you really say this about mastin with a straight face after anything goes?

I can and I will. I said this in AOT. I said this in the Open Hydra game. Mastin makes his alignment reallllllllly fucking obvious to anyone who knows how to tell the difference between his scum and town games. I can't really help it if some people just don't have a clue how to do this, but I can say that mastin makes his alignment very, very obvious (far more than any other player I play with, IMO)

It baffles me that people can

apparently

read you but cannot read mastin. *shrug*

In post 1434, AngryPidgeon wrote:Town: Tammy, RBD
Probably Town: Mac, MastinSSK, Orcinus, Red gyarados?
I don't know, leaning town?: Foxhound, Stalin, LB
Less than Town: Peregrine, F-16, Kagura
Needs to die regardless of alignment: GIF
The rest: Cupcake, Clyton, Katsuki, Sheep Us

I find this reads list really fucking weird

Especially given the stuff you're saying about certain players at this point. Also I'm probably the player you have the least experience with in this player list, but you seem to have a lot of confidence in your read on me

In post 1445, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:50 shades of Christ what a scumpost.

-Beli

No, Beli, why do you do this?

I don't want to have to start calling you bellend

:<

In post 1446, Yukari Yakumo wrote:I agree.
VOTE: MastinSSK

In post 1450, Titan wrote:I don't know what it is, but I'm far more likely to join your wagon than the fox and the hound. That's for sure!

Why? What about FoxHound looks townier than Mastin?

In post 1451, CarbonFiber wrote:You've seen me play as town before, right? You think I wouldn't have five solid townreads by post 450?

-FT

Was that your post or F16's? I assumed it was F16, and I do not think he'd have so many solid town reads so quickly. Did you guys discuss them and, if so, were they 5 reads you mutually agreed were solid, so much so that you were fine with, in your words, using PoE to find 4 scum in the remaining 11 players?

Also, at the time of this post (Wed April 9) I had no completed games with you, so I dunno where you were pulling this from.

In post 1454, Kagura wrote:I was gonna vote you before I was pinged by the Fox!

Then you really do suck at reading me!

In post 1466, Kagura wrote:No, I unvoted in case Tammy was actually crying.
I've always been willing to give people as much room as they'd like to talk: that doesn't mean that I still don't think they are scum.

Desp quite literally said in thread that you bought Tammy's AtE and he still thought Tammy was scum but you didn't.

In post 1480, Kagura wrote:I feel Muffin would be less likely to constantly troll as scum than as town, but that's not really based in any sort of evidence or reality. I still wouldn't be unhappy voting them, still reading though.

OK. Just to make this clear, what you're calling "trolling" isn't _really_ trolling since it's not like I'm being deliberately anti-town in some way, I'm just having a bit of fun with my posts. It's also not an alignment-based thing, as much as people want to insist it is, and it certainly isn't something I couldn't do as scum. Trolling would be more like what I did in the beginning of Xenosaga (especially re: Brian wagon) which

could

potentially be called anti-town (thus trolling) but even that is something I think I could get away with as scum with the right sway.

But I'm not really trolling here. There are some posts that I wrote knowing they weren't adding anything to the game (short posts with no content in them, or the Captain's Log post for example) but a majority of my posts are pretty fucking game-relevant. Why don't you have an opinion on them?

In post 1482, CarbonFiber wrote:I am seeing Fox and Bro-Desp as town with Mastin/Muffin/AP scum.

Oh, goodie, I cannot wait to read the explanations for this one. Should be fucking hilarious.

In post 1482, CarbonFiber wrote:Fox's reactions to the pressure on them felt incredibly genuine and most of their posting so far is relatable and makes sense. Their Disney picture presenting the Rancid vote was hilarious and natural.

This actually made me do a double-take. In what way was Cephrir's reaction to the suspicion of them natural? Instead of an actual town reaction, like I dunno, calling the fact that Mastin wasn't presenting solid reasons bullshit, or I dunno, actually giving reasons to think Mastin is scum, they're instead just going with the "create as much noise as possible and hope people don't realise that's what we're doing" routine.

I also do not believe for one second that you've never seen scum make a similar post to that "Disney picture" one. Like. Seriously? How fucking naive are you?

In post 1482, CarbonFiber wrote:BRO and Desp's reads match mine very closely, I don't have a read on BRO yet but I can see eye to eye with Desp.

Since when do reads aligning make for a good reason to call someone else town? When I'm scum I specifically tailor my reads to align with other players

because

going with the flow is a good way to avoid suspicion.

Holy shit. Again. Do not believe you are this naive.

Why so much defense of FoxHound and DespBro here when what you should be doing is explaining why you think we're scum with Mastin AND AP?

In post 1486, Just Sheep Us wrote:That reads as town b/c it demonstrates a lack of groundedness and defined objectives that scum-AP would have (especially given that scum have day talk).

Uh, do they? Where was this stated?

In post 1503, Kagura wrote:

In post 1151, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:Don't really give a shit. Nati has basically checked out of the game because of RL and not wanting to read this shit. His last post was 676 (last Friday) and prior to that 441 (last Tuesday). And considering I didn't even intend to play this game, and

I'm the head that nobody is ever going to town read no matter what I do, I've lost interest in even attempting to look town here.

I want this group of players to burn with fucking fire: {AP, despbro, foxhound, PV, GIF}. And I've been wanting this for a while

If you really want to try and lynch me, despbro, I'll 1v1 you tomorrow

Where did this come from?

I'm getting a little fucking tired of seeing every reads list in every game I'm in, regardless of alignment, not include me in any place except null (or possible null-scum for ~reasons~) - i mean, even when i think i'm being really fucking transparent in all of my fucking posts, apparently people have trouble reading it. OK, I get it, I've burned some people before, but it's seriously fucking annoying. If you want to know where it's coming from (even prior to 1543 ending, though I think that was partially where my frustration was coming from) it's because I don't think there's anything I could possibly do that's going to convince anyone I'm town if they simply don't want to be convinced. Which makes me apathetic as fuck. I didn't want to play this game, but Nati asked me to. I didn't want to play it because I'm over games with this player list. Not because I don't enjoy playing with you guys (in general, I have nothing against you); but because it's so fucking tiring having such a fucking high mountain to climb every time I want to get town read when I'm actually town. I'm fine with putting in that sort of effort as scum because I consider it a challenge, but as town? I don't want to have to put in mountains and mountains of effort not knowing whether I'll be successful, not knowing whether it's going to even make a difference or whether it's just going to be fucking ignored because "lol muffin could totally do that as scum". There are some things I legitimately don't think I can do as scum, and while I don't really want to talk about them in detail, I'm hoping people figure it out at some point because I'm getting fucking sick of this shit.

So yeah, when I saw the multiple reads lists in this game that didn't include my name anywhere (literally; go read every single reads list in this game and try to find my name. you can't, except for maybe one or two recently) it sapped my will. It's fucking taxing. I don't like it. I don't consider myself any harder to read than, say, a player like you, but apparently people can form town or scum reads on you easily and have difficulty putting me as anything other than null.

In post 1514, Just Sheep Us wrote:You realize that was probably a muffin-pretending-to-be-nati post, right?

I am both appalled and disgusted that you think I would ever do something like that

Also, all the "alt slips" bar one have been because I don't want to log into a hydra from work (so no, that wasn't me pretending to be Nati) - I was at work at the time, thus no, any RBD post then came from Nati.

In post 1527, MastinSSK wrote:

In post 1397, AngryPidgeon wrote: IM NOT GOING TO GET LYNCHED WITH THIS ROLE AND NO IM NOT CLAIMING IT.

The two are mutually exclusive?

In post 1398, AngryPidgeon wrote:This could come from either alignment and I dont see why you care so much.

The way it's done makes the difference, though. And I care as much as I do because people are letting them get away with a BS point that at BEST (KEY WORD BEING "AT BEST" MEANING CAN BE AND I THINK IS WORSE!) is null.

In post 1399, The Fox and the Hound wrote:Trying to explain why I am not scum is not alignment indicative and never will be

Again, it's the way it was done. This is something a bit difficult to describe, since it kinda ties into the magic-town stuff, about a player who either is or isn't scum. And that's part of it. A town player generally has a good idea of why they're town...but can't (or if they can, won't) point to specific things that make them town, especially not things tied to the difference/similarities between games.

In post 1417, AngryPidgeon wrote:This game does not look like town PV btw.

Nor scum-PV. Because there is no PV to be seen, yet, not really. PV not giving content isn't a scumtell; it's a nulltell. So it'll be easier to get a read on him after there is more content. (And if he doesn't give it, then he can be lynched. But it wouldn't be a lynched-for-being-scum; it'd be a policy-lynch, to stop dragging the game down with lack of contribution, a factor that can and has lost him games. Yet this isn't a D1 thing; this is a much later day, like at least D4, thing.)

In post 1424, Titan wrote:But can you really say this about mastin with a straight face after anything goes?

He can, and can even mean most of it together, too. Problem is that he probably wouldn't be, sooooooooooooooooo, yeah.

In post 1434, AngryPidgeon wrote:Town: Tammy, RBD
Probably Town: Mac, MastinSSK, Orcinus, Red gyarados?
I don't know, leaning town?: Foxhound, Stalin, LB
Less than Town: Peregrine, F-16, Kagura
Needs to die regardless of alignment: GIF
The rest: Cupcake, Clyton, Katsuki, Sheep Us

These reads don't jive with your posting. Like...I should be in the 'probably town' pile as I am, but...all your posting places me in the town pile. (For that matter, I think Mac's similar.) Vice-versa for RBD. They deserve the town spot, but all your posting is saying probably-town. Red Gyarados and orc are randomly thrown in there, too.

The bits below that also feel off. The Clyton-in-rest bit in particular.

All-in-all, this reads list feels like it could come from any AP...who has posted differently. From AP as he's posted this game, this reads list feels...

off

, in an intangible way that eludes me.

In post 1444, MastinSSK wrote:

Cephrir, Xenogears, dead QT wrote:Mastin wasn't a threat, she was a mislynch I thought I could get. And I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling kids.

^Ceph's take on me last game.
Posting quickly, be back much later.

And now that I am back, I can elaborate. Basically, this is how Cephrir viewed me last game. Someone who, in spite of scumreading him, was no threat, and in fact, he thought I was mislynchable. He's got the exact same read of me this game. He doesn't think I'm a threat. He doesn't think that my scumread on him is problematic. He thinks he can actually get a lynch on me. And this attitude towards me is, again, a large part of the reason I think he's scum. (I had better wording in my head at the time, but I can't pull past-me's reasoning up.) Basically...he's playing a con game. Again. Like he was in that game. There were a multitude of comments about him being townread, and at least one or two of them were from meta if memory serves me. Because that's what he wanted them to see.

And this game, he's doing the same thing. There are a fair number of people townreading him, a LOT from meta, because that's what he wants them to see. Instead of him actually being town, he's made himself look like town. That's basically the main reason AP's scum, too, because AP's done the same damn thing. Yes. They look good, because they put effort into looking good. No, they aren't actually good. Because that wasn't their goal. They aren't aiming to be town; they're aiming to do a good job of looking town. That's my read of them, of their posting, of their situation.

IAWTP

(And I only quoted this to pad the length of this wall, lolololololol. Like I do agree with almost everything here, but yeah, didn't really need to quote this. But seriously, who the fuck is still reading this at this point? I'm pretty sure I could start ranting about penises or something at this point and nobody would even know. I think I'm going to do that, actually).

I have a penis. I'm now going to sing the penis song. It goes like this: penis, penis, penis, penis, penis, penis, penis, penis. Not a great song, but whatever, it's catchy. Once it's in your head, it stays there for a while (until it goes flaccid? HA HA I'm hilarious)

I think Mastin is about the only one who's going to catch me talking about this, and only because mastin might browse through this post looking for mentions of "mastin". But if mastin has any sense, this won't be quoted. Let other people find it.

It's conveniently about midway into my wall so I don't think anyone is going to read it. I suppose I could make very sure by drawing an ascii penis. 8====D (Not to scale). Nobody is going to see this ever, anyway. Penis, once more, for good measure

In post 1532, The Fox and the Hound wrote:Someone did mention that it was possible I would fake this as scum and maybe it is? But I don't think it's something I would do? I don't know.

If I wasn't coming off a game where scum tried to suggest this same thing, I might be more inclined to believe this

In post 1533, AngryPidgeon wrote:AP is a townread for me.

Fucking blatantly lying. I know you have role information that suggests otherwise. L A FUCKING L

In post 1533, AngryPidgeon wrote:

In post 1492, zMuffinMan wrote:also lol at despbro thinking me "buddying" mastin is because im scum

gonna take that as a scum claim if bro is the one putting forth that argument

Why?
-Muffin

Because BRO's seen my approach to mastin, across multiple games. Even if he wasn't reading Xenosaga, for example, I'm sure you mentioned it to him somewhere (because you were scum reading me for a long time in that game, for much the same reason, but I shrugged it off because I know you haven't seen how I usually approach mastin). BRO on the other hand has no excuse for this. He's seen me, multiple times, read mastin off very few posts (sometimes even a single post) correctly (100% of the time). If BRO is the one trying to push the angle that it's weird for me to "buddy" mastin here, then I'm calling bullshit since it's obviously a fabricated read.

I also, in general, don't understand where their read on me is coming from, but that's another issue altogether. It would help if they explained it, but since they don't want to *shrug* I'm assuming guilty until proven innocent here

In post 1536, AngryPidgeon wrote:Like people start calling you suspicious and we get this "BTW IM ACTUALLY A GOOD ROLE" lobbed out for no reason.

Uh, er, um, no? I think he elaborated on that because someone specifically talked about his role possibly being useless. So uh, yeah. Not seeing where this is coming from.

Also don't really get this if you're town reading mastin (and all signs point to this being the case).

In post 1545, Mac wrote:but I don't think I've ever townread muffinman so fucking hard following the series of rage posts on 47.

Well, I'm sure it's going to disappoint you when I tell you that I wasn't actually raging, it was fake rage I was experimenting with because I wanted to see if anyone would town read me for it.

Apparently it worked. So yay me, I guess?

Not that anyone is going to read this, but if they do, sorry? I am actually town but I was never angry at this game (a little frustrated that people never seem to be able to town read me, but not really). Nati said he was sorry about it in the hydra QT and I had to explain to him that I wasn't really angry. lol Nati, lol. If I were angry at you, I'd have said so in the hydra QT, thillybilly.

In post 1548, Mac wrote:They're still null because I think their reasons for pushing RBD are poor, but that post was good.

Not you too, Mac,
You've been led astray!
They're not town, they're scum
Don't turn a blind eye to their play!

In post 1552, Red Gyarados wrote:Just. so. many. words. to. read. through.

~Brian

HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE
HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE
HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE
HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE

In post 1556, PeregrineV wrote:If you mean the playerlist its because there are a shitload of hydras and I use my ISO like a QT thread to keep my thoughts. At some sorry point I'll have to crack through the hydra heads and look for tells, and isoing the mod+me+another player just for playerlist is a pain.

It seems far simpler to keep the names in a notepad / word document. Especially since then you don't have to keep scrolling back to the post to find out the names?

... ... ... Don't really believe you legitimately think this makes sense.

In post 1559, PeregrineV wrote:

In post 1222, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:PV is totally disengaged from the game in a way that he usually isn't when he's town. There's no signs of effort. There's no signs of analysis. There's no signs of anything that he does when he's town. The way he's disengaged from the game here reminds me of how he was playing in the recently finished mafiassk large. It's the same lack of analysis. The same lack of effort. I'm pretty sure PV is scum here and I know he looks like scum in every single fucking game but this is so blindingly obvious that I don't know how others cannot see it, let alone think he's town.

I used to be "hard town". What happened?

I am pretty sure you have me confused with someone else? I have not once called you town in this game. I am pretty sure Nati hasn't either. I know I haven't called you town because at no stage of this game have I thought that anything you've posted looked like it came from a town mindset.

In post 1562, PeregrineV wrote:Since you are REALLY sticking with this, when you gladiate, if it take 8 to lynch the other guy, does it take only 7 to lynch you? Or, is your hated modifer "always on", as it it ALWAYS takes one less than normal to lynch you?

Um, two things here:

Why would I answer this question? In what possible way could it benefit you or anybody else to know this information if I haven't already deemed it fit to share.

Is knowing the answer to this question going to advance the game in any way, shape or form? Because I can't see this as anything other than role fishing, and I cannot possibly fathom how my answer to this question would do anything to change how you're viewing the game at the moment. So, uh, yeah

Basically, I refuse to answer any questions that are role-related this game; when I deem it necessary, I might share some information, but I will not answer questions about it other than on a need-to-know basis.

In post 1564, Yukari Yakumo wrote:Oh and RBD in AP pile

massive amounts of :shifty eyes: here

(Also the only real resistance to this is coming from derps. Like F16, DespBro and FoxHound, and there's a preeeeeeeeeeettty decent chance of scum in those names sooooooooooooo yeah)

In post 1567, PeregrineV wrote:Ahh good. Praytell, what does town PV look like?

Not fucking like this, and town-PV probably wouldn't ask a question like this, phrased in this way

There's a severe lack of direction and analysis in your posts, PV. Sup with that?

In post 1570, PeregrineV wrote:Ok softball game to go to. Not liking Fox/Hound wagon at this point.

Why not?

In post 1579, Titan wrote:I've also realized that if mastin and the rancid pirates are town then the scum team has made a deviation from my last several games from attacking me for weird reasons and are instead calling me town. (Though the attack by those two was fucking weird.). IF that's the case then I'm not sure how to distinguish right now between town recognizing me as town and scum calling me town because that's what they're supposed to do. It's fucking with my head to start looking cross eyed at people calling me town.

OK. So since I'm town and mastin is almost certainly town, if you are town, scum aren't attacking you. What are you going to do about it?

I'd rather not have to read you saying stuff like this; do something about it or don't talk about it.

In post 1586, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:OK, I don't want to kill PV anymore

Why not? What changed your mind about him? Because none of his posts prior to this one looked town at all, so I don't get where the change in the read comes from.

In post 1608, Kagura wrote:JSU - I have a big negative connection between them and RBD and that is probably about it.

? Does this mean you don't see us as the same alignment?

In post 1610, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:ns' activity really has been low sitewide recently from what I've seen. I'm going to wait and see what he brings to the game over the weekend I guess.

So now the weekend has come and gone, where you at with this?

'coz notscience completely disappearing is making me get all weird on him atm

In post 1617, Kagura wrote:I do think her gladiator strat is crap, but I don't know.

I'm actually thinking of doing a strawpoll to decide whether or not we gladiate this game.

Except I think I already know the general consensus and FUCK THE GENERAL CONSENSUS

In post 1632, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:I hate mastin's attitude towards F/H and the logical fallacy that is painting Ceph's attitude towards her lynchability as independent of gamestate. The townmastin I know is smarter than that and I don't think mastin actually believes that harseshit this game, but false face must hide what false heart doth know .

I think you're somewhat misunderstanding mastin's stance here, and since mastin's stance here is somewhat similar to mine, I don't really get it.

I also loled at the comment about town-mastin being smarter than this, but whatevs

In post 1634, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:It didn't give me quite the same level of scumvibe, but I think that's because of xenosaga. there are some parallels between ceph's reads in the early game here and his day 1 in xenosaga, but ceph is a consummate scum player. I think it's actually more of a heartfelt townie thing that scum-ceph would avoid so soon after that game.

Thing is, I don't think Cephrir really had a choice about it. A distinct change in the way he approaches his read on mastin would set off more alarm bells than the way he's done it here. So what I'm seeing here is Cephrir thinking he would be scum reading mastin and so there is the scum read. But I'm not looking at this deeply because I could see this coming from scum- or town-Ceph. What bothers me is his reasoning here and his attitude towards mastin and mastin's read on him. I say he's hiding behind a mask of thinking mastin is scummy every game because that's all I'm seeing; no analysis, no attempts to discern mastin's alignment, just a scum read and a lot of noise. And this is why I don't think Cephrir is town here.

The fact he's doing it twice in a row is only because he thinks he would do it as town. Also maybe because he thinks "lol wouldn't do it twice in a row" is a good defense. But whatever.

Key point is you shouldn't get lost in reasoning like this and should instead look at it objectively.

I would like to see town in Cephrir's posting, but I can't. And I don't see how others can.

In post 1641, Kagura wrote:But I feel like mastin feels, well, 'flat' (sorry to use such a loaded word after that whole thing) as scum or gets defensive or tunnels or something else opaque and distracting and doesn't really absorb the gamestate.

THIS IS KIND OF TRUE AND A GOOD WAY TO DISCERN MASTIN'S ALIGNMENT

IF MORE PEOPLE SAW HOW OBVIOUS THIS WAS, THIS GAME WOULD BE EASY PICKINGS

In post 1666, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:where the rubber met the road in the last game we played together as town, when it came to who got lynched, my reads were more accurate than yours most of the time.

What is it that I should be seeing? What should tell me that THIS time I should subsume my reads and follow yours?

I don't think you should be trusting reads blindly (though I would like it a lot if you did!) but since you're not really engaging mastin (or me, but hey, I haven't really been involved in this game to be engaged with) on why you think he's wrong and why you think you're right, you're really just doing it wrong.

I think mastin is right. I think I've explained pretty clearly where I disagree with your read and why I think you're wrong. What do you think about that? (LOL I'm still asking questions here as though anyone is still reading this post, wtf is wrong with me?)

Also don't think your reading accuracy in one game means shit. My reading accuracy in 1543 was prettttttttttty fucking shit (though that game was somewhat of an anomaly because my reads in other games lately have been pretty accurate for the most part, but *shrug* shit happens and i'm not above having really, really off games). Does that mean you're going to discount my reads this game?

In post 1678, MastinSSK wrote:And zMuffinman is someone who I generally can read well, too

:/ I'd call this bullshit, but when you call me town and scum in every game, I can't realllly argue against it.

In post 1681, MastinSSK wrote:Instead of seeing a town-AP, I'm seeing an AP-pretending-to-be-town. The actions he do vaguely look town. The words he says vaguely sound town. But how they're done, how they're said, simply...doesn't.

IAWTP x a million. AP's post have this look-kinda-maybe-townish-on-the-surface feel to them but I think that comes from being a decent player as either alignment more than anything. What I'm not seeing is town (oh God I'm going to hate myself for using this word) trajectories in the way he's approaching reads and talking to people here. For example, he seems to have you as a strong town read (or strongish? I don't know, really) on you but his posts towards you don't come from that mindset and he seems to be criticising you and wavering on you more than someone would if they were as town as he suggests his read on you is. Other reads feel kinda similar as well. I also think his approach to certain things is a little weird (the bork QT thing sticks out as a major example... as does him calling himself obvtown for his entrance)

In post 1684, MastinSSK wrote:Basically, their stances this game have been fairly off, as has their reasoning and their interactions, and how people interact with them.

Also agree with this assessment of DespBro. It's the same thing I think atm. Desp is pushing this weird angle of us being scum with AP and doing scum theatre bullshit, but I don't believe he believes that. And if he did, he'd be far more vocal about it, because he knows I could probably get away with it if I were scum. And BRO's reads just haven't made sense to me at all.

In post 1689, CarbonFiber wrote:In particular, I liked how he went from having mild concerns in Post 383 towards a full-out case and vote in Post 1165

What did you like about this? Because I'd say if it was eating at him since 383, he should have done something about it far earlier than he did. Why wait 800 posts for something that is essentially just rehashing what he thought 800 posts earlier except this time with (apparently) a stronger scum read (which he drops almost immediately in favour of going back to attacking mastin)

In post 1689, CarbonFiber wrote:Even more than the content, the ostentatious tone with which he cast the vote felt incredibly bold and not at all "safe" the way Mastin is portraying Fox's posting to be

I read it as playful, not bold. It's more a null thing than anything, but I'm interested in specifically why you think this is more likely town than scum.

In post 1689, CarbonFiber wrote:I didn't feel like voting Muffin's slot who is one of the most difficult lynches on the site to be either safe or opportunistic (and no, being hated doesn't make him a significantly easier lynch).

You're fucking kidding me, right? Not only did I have to wade through pages of bullshit in Xenosaga of people saying the exact same thing about mollie pushing me (she was scum there, no surprise) but really? I am probably the *safest* vote for any scum player specifically BECAUSE of how hard it is to actually lynch me (and yes, I also explained this in Xenosaga). It not only gives them someone to attack over multiple day phases, because it's pretty difficult to lynch me when I'm actually town, but it's also rather easy to play on because paranoia about me isn't exactly uncommon.

Scum-mollie pushed me because (a) I was attacking her and was thus a threat, but more importantly (b) because it gave her something to do so she could look like she was being busy. Why would the same thing happening here be a town tell for someone?

As for the meta examples you provide, fucking lol. You're asserting that it feels the same as his town games, and it doesn't feel the same as his scum games, but you're not talking about why you think this. I personally don't believe he actually believed his reasons for thinking I'm scum here (SEE: HIM BACKTRACKING ON IT AND TRYING TO APPEAL TO AFTER UNVOTING SHORTLY AFTER VOTING ME). Which is what you describe as his scum meta. Go figure.

I don't give two shits if you're gonna call it "natural" sounding or something like that. You're seeing what you want to see rather than what's there, and since you haven't done a good job of explaining why it's natural, I'm going to ignore this until you do.

In post 1699, Just Sheep Us wrote:Yeah, there's often 1, maybe 2 scum in the lurker group, but being able to tell scum-lurk from town-lurk is a skill that exists

(a) How the fuck is this relevant to anything? You weren't saying "it's possible they're scum lurkers or town lurkers", you were directly saying my reads are shit because they're town.

(b) If you can tell the difference between scum lurk and town lurk, then explain why they're town lurking rather than scum lurking?

Also there are times when the vast majority of scum is in the lurkers. Sooooooooooo saying "how often does it happen?" means nothing. It's dependent on who's actually scum, and who's actually scum is dependent on RNG, soooooo what's your fucking point?

In post 1700, Just Sheep Us wrote:So are you going to disagree that saying that an entrance "100% cannot be town" is bad logic when that entrance has been used by the same player as town?

First of all, you're blatantly misrepresenting what I actually said. I not only did not say that his entrance 100% couldn't be a town entrance, but I was arguing that the way he did it and the way he talked about it weren't town - not that he hadn't done it as town in the past.

And you've yet to argue against my actual point here, so I'm just going to assume you're scum trying to look like you have an actual point here.

In post 1702, Just Sheep Us wrote:Since apparently RBD ain't happenin'

Mastin ain't happening either

In post 1706, AngryPidgeon wrote:Sorry mastin, you can't have your scumread on me and vouch for my read on you at the same time. That is really really scummy.

@mastin, this is an example of what I mean about weird interactions given his supposed read on you. If he's town reading you, a post like this shouldn't exist (unless he's not as good at reading you as he claims he is). If he's scum reading you, then why isn't he all over lynching you. And if he's null or unsure on you, then wow? Dunno why he put you in the probably town list in the first place if that's the case.

Plus I don't believe he really thinks this makes sense. I would, for example, have to read mastin as town regardless of my alignment if mastin is town, because as town I would see it and as scum I would have to pretend I see it. So yeah, my read could be trusted unless someone thinks we're scum together, regardless of what my actual alignment is.

In post 1709, AngryPidgeon wrote:Everything she's posted -could- be from town mastin and I'm a little disappointed in the complete lack of justifications, its like mastin coasting on being mastin at that point.

How much of mastin's posts are you actually reading?

In post 1714, Titan wrote:He feels orchestrated and his reads feel fabricated; it doesn't feel like he's processing this game in an organic way without knowing people's alignments

Elaborate

'coz I get the exact opposite feeling about mastin's posts and I want to know which of mastin's reads you feel this way about

In post 1727, Just Sheep Us wrote:I love players that have functional policies on me for no discernible reason!

What does this mean? And/or do you think notscience is voting you for policy reasons?

In post 1735, The Fox and the Hound wrote:I could say the same about this post. Why does it matter?

It doesn't. I was clearly joking. I don't see how you didn't get I was clearly joking given every other post of mine at the time. I don't understand why you felt the need to comment on this. I don't see how you could have possibly thought it was a serious complaint, given the obvious inherent hypocrisy. Holy. Fucking. Shit.

In post 1738, Kagura wrote:Additionally, RBD, if you gladiate JSU tomorrow I will vote you and I will make you die.

You should see how many fucks I give. Especially since I'm going to kill you N1 so LOL DON'T GIVE ANY FUCKS AT ALL.

In post 1739, CarbonFiber wrote:That leaves MastinSSK, Rancid, AP, Clyton, GIF, and PeregrineV.

Is this now your PoE list that isn't going to change despite there being

at most

3 scum in that list? That is, of course, assuming I am right about all of AP, GIF, PV being scum.

In post 1741, AngryPidgeon wrote:Cupcake should not be a strong townread for anyone

He's not a particularly *strong* town read for me, but he has been a town read of sorts for a while now. Do you think he's scum or...? What was the point of this?

Nati, I think this post might be a little long. I'm not sure how many people are going to read it. :/

loled.

and I read all of it. so I saw what you did there. I'll respond to bits and pieces later today after adequate amounts of coffee

Mac, my reads list will be up later today.

I notice I didn't feature once in that assessment... Unless I'm the penis you reference in your song

But if it helps I have you as a town lean, have done since I justified why a while back which Titan disputed.

I have Titan, RBD, carbonfiber, mastin and mac as town leans

I has cupcakepanda, angry pigeon and kagura as scum leans.

The rest I'm thing to sort out a bit more clearly.

I don't remember reading a post of yours in the last 16 pages (and I was 16 pages behind) so if you didn't feature, you probably didn't post (or didn't post anything worth commenting on)

In post 1753, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:

In post 1743, orcinus_theoriginal wrote:Bork: I've gotten better at reading fery between our last town game and now

Also exams+modding a mish mash game

Ill be back here soon

This really doesn't give me any sort of warm fuzzy about your townread. And you were kinda waffly about whether my early townread on you was scummy or not.

Also, you saw me as scum put down a pretty unearned strong town read on Nacho in the nati game. It hasn't even crossed your mind that I could have been doing the same to you?

i'm not trying to give you warm fuzzy feelings about my townread on you. you haven't misread my town game yet and i'm not worried that you will

i'm working with more things than your early townread on me, although yes that still strikes me as odd. especially because you bought up BSG and a lot has happened since then

i think your alignment will be evident by the end of day 2, if not by the end of today. i don't need to make an effort to sort you atm

Prod received. Sig updated for weekends.

I'll be back later today to check on all my questions from last week.

In post 1755, Mac wrote:Can we have beli up and explaining this

Yep!

In fact, the first part of that should also answer Broderick's question.

Starting with meta : I've only seen DV play twice, once as each alignment, and in both cases he drew a lot of fire for reasons I don't understand -- I'm thinking because he's got a kind of friendly vibe that's not popular in current site meta -- which makes him eminently lynchable. At least, scum-me would see him as a lynch target by default. So, when that pattern started repeating itself here, I started looking for scum on the Fox/Hound wagon. IIRC I got on this track about the same time or a bit earlier than I laid down a vote on PV, so there was no actual there, but I looked at the wagon-in-spirit of players who were gunning for Fox/Hound. I didn't find much that pinged me, but I got a kind of amorphous, intuitive creepy vibe from Mastin. It wasn't enough to go on, especially with Ffery townreading her, but it was enough for me to go all shields-up-red-alert. That's why I asked ProHawk to have a look at the wagon -- I wanted to see if he'd find the same thing unprompted. I couldn't get that second opinion from Ffery, because I already told her about this in our hydra QT, and besides, I was scum hunting within her townreads.

The next ping was when she went after Muffinati and brought up his Don Corleone. Burden of Proficiency is not just a harseshit argument, it's a logical fallacy. Before this game, I've only played with town-mastin and I've not seen her encouraging harseshit thought processes, let alone espousing them. I think I've already talked about this in-thread: Mastin definitely does not believe that Muffin's scummy win is germane to the game. She's trying to manipulate the town into playing badly.

The last part is when she quoted Cephrir's Dead QT from another game talking about her as a mislynch target. If it looks like I snarled at her for that because I've been saving up "50 Shades of Christ" for too long and was dying to use it, it's because that's actually true. However, I perceive that Dead QT quote as a scumpost, because it paints Cephrir as the kind of player who is contemptuous enough of mastin's ability to see her as an easy mislynch and that's a mountain of rubbish so tall it's visible from the fucking moon. (Yeah, I know, it looks like that contradicts my viewpoint vis-a-vis DV, but that's a paradox, not a contradiction: DV's play this game, and the playerlist's reaction to it, is consistent with what I've observed in Doctor Who and Gundam SEED, and thus is not altered by game state this time around. This contrasts with how the game state has altered my perception of Mastin -- Before this game, I would have thought of her as a player who is too useful to lynch and who furthermore I would have so much difficulty lynching that it would be apposite to apply Shaheed's Law to her alignment every time I see her on the player list. This game, though, my view is altered by the gamestate)

: To more properly answer your question, my PV vote was half scum bait. My meta view on PV is that he always starts out useless as fuck and then hauls out the big guns late-game when there's enough data to analyse that most peoples' brains shut down at the enormity of the task, and PV just grinds through it and produces useful results. That means that starting an early-game wagon on town-PV would be likely to draw scum on the wagon, and I'm uncertain enough of PV's alignment that I wouldn't be sorry if that bait-wagon went to lynch. Essentially, I was willing to sacrifice PV to nail scum. Furthermore, due to PV's traditional early-game lack of content, I can't form a read on him, and I can see scum-PV riding that "useless as fuck early stage" meta into late game, where the "big guns" I'd be looking for would fail to materialise, but by then it would be too late. I'm not interested in trying to kill him anymore because his usefulness as bait has collapsed given that I have to come out into the open about why I want to kill mastin, and no scum would take the bait of a me-led PV wagon when I'm taking the opposite stance in my argument against mastin.

That wasn't meant to be so tl;dr, but I don't see anything in it that I can cut. I'm a bad writer.

In post 1567, PeregrineV wrote:

In post 1417, AngryPidgeon wrote:This game does not look like town PV btw.

Ahh good. Praytell, what does town PV look like?

@AP- Never saw an answer to this.

In post 1588, PeregrineV wrote:

In post 99, Kagura wrote:A pirate's life for me,
For a town pirate's all I can be
Being scum is so much fun
But it's too much work

And this game, you will not worry
My alignment is guaranteed
I have a transparent partner this game
And his name is bork borkieeeeeee

And so I'll troll and troll and troll and then I'll troll some more
I'll lynch scream and defend until the daytime ends
Then if I survive I will go trolling once again

- Lord Business

In post 100, Kagura wrote:

In post 53, Titan wrote:Hi!

VOTE: kagura

Okay here's what I need from you guys. Nacho, if you're town I need to feel it. Alternatively, Bork you can obvtown up your slot ASAP please. I will stay with you, but if you value my sanity at all (and if you're town you should!), you will please just do this for me.

I briefly skimmed the first couple pages, notscience here's an awesome town tell for me. I literally just woke up, and the first thing I did was log in to this game. Though I'd love to stay and goof off I've got to go to work.

As the Pirate Goddess of Mafiascum,
I hearby solely swear
For every person who townreads us
I will answer them with a pirate prayer

A shot of Jack and a hint of Coke
No matter the hour, before I post
For with every townie show
Should come a drunken glow

-Lord Business

Doing the KY stuff.

What is this?

I don't don't understand the two posts above where you are rhyming but have signed with another player's name. Can you explain the meaning behind them?

In post 1589, PeregrineV wrote:

In post 1454, Kagura wrote:I was gonna vote you before I was pinged by the Fox!

Wondering what it was that "pinged" you.

I see the vote in 870, and two posts about/with Fox (954, 977), so can you elaborate?

- Here's another one.

In post 1597, Titan wrote:I don't know what to make of Pere's posting though; I feel he'll always be a damn enigma to me :/

Wrapped in a riddle inside a mystery?

But seriously, if you question something, why not ask?

In post 1654, MastinSSK wrote:

In post 2, Yulia Jue wrote:1 Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8)

So I want to talk about each of the players in more detail. Conveniently enough, I just discussed bork yet he's also the first on the list, meaning I might as well knock him out of the park first.

I remember really strongly liking bork's early posting, though I don't remember why. I think it mighta been due to jiving well, seeming casual, relaxed, and all-in-all, that town tone. That, however, is weak.
I remember not liking Nacho's posting, as if it felt like the scum him who I've wanted to catch for ages now...and then it dawned on me that that's pretty much precisely why he probably wouldn't actually be scum. Because while I am weary of a scum-Nacho, I know Nacho's scum game has taken strides, and his game here doesn't seem super-strong. It feels okayish, but not super-mega-strong like I'd kinda be expecting of a scum-him. So I overall reached the conclusion of him being town.

When it comes to bork's posting, I'm not sure what it is about it. It's like that same posting said a different way would look like scum, but said the way he does just feels like town. And how to describe it eludes me. It just feels like...I dunno, transparent? Like I can follow a stream of thought, and that his thoughts when presented before me look immensely town.

So overall, while I have had paranoia of them, I'm thinking town.
And screw it, right or wrong, I'm sticking with stronger-town.

An iso of Kagura and perhaps one or two posts quoted to illustrate the points you are trying to make would go far to bolster your read.

Since it's forum mafia and all.