Mafiascum.net

Going to play some DnD, I shall be less responsive for the next couple-few hours. Only saying this because I've been replying pretty actively the last little bit.

↑ Cerberus v666 wrote:@TPTG: It's probably aimed at me. Doing as you said, and boiling it down to trustworthy vs. not. I see insufficient cause to *distrust* either Dan or Drixx.

Alright, then I mean we should move past the claim, because until we have some kills/flips/etc we just can't know exactly how the set-up is playing out. We have about 3 days till deadline.

I know you said you feel Drixx is not scum because of outside influences, experience with him, what have you. Put this game in a vacuum, instead of Drixx the player is named 'mith', what do you think? What do you think of the way his claim came about, the way he has reacted to pressure on him, etc.?

Why would I scumread a claimed Mason with a partner chiming in to confirm? It seems highly unlikely that scum leaves you both alive a long time so you'll be confirmed. I can question your methodology when you put a case together against me that is outright false and confirmably false just by looking at my ISO. Just because I criticize your logic and point at flaws in your case on me doesn't mean jack shit. I can be critical of your shitty logic and not scum read you.

As far as the BP goes, I never said that I knew, for sure, that my immunity was against a scum faction. For all I know, the specific immunity I have is to a neutral. My role name has an etymological link to the faction I'm immune to and the ability name is an amusing reference to it.

TPTG - I asked Toon why he jumped straight to a claim because it didn't seem warranted to me. It didn't even occur to him to try and stop the wagon short of that? Any time someone does something that doesn't make sense, it's worth questioning.

↑ LucianRoy wrote:

So, I'm killing toon in the next 24 if he doesn't claim by then.

Reason A: It might make the town stop bickering if we got some kills on the board.
Reason B: His death would give us more info as to who the scum are, and I'm inclined to think that there are more scum on his wagon than Vonflare's. It would help with reads, etc.
Reason C: Killing toon would make people revise their votes, which would be quite interesting to see.
Reason D: At this point, it kind of looks like he's going to die anyway. Might as well finish the job early so we can gain the info.
Reason E: (Insert something about Marquis upon death)

Yes, my hard defending of him and that post by Lucian made his claim totally out of character and doesn't make sense. Plus we have a private mason topic where we made the decision to claim (and Toon has pointed that out). The progression of what happened was very simple.

↑ Drixx wrote:Why didn't you respond to the earlier pokes? You checked into the thread. Assuming your claim is true,

wouldn't some investment in the game to slow the roll on your wagon have been a better play than this claim?

But yes, asking a player why he didn't play better is productive. Like, Toon honestly feels bad that he had to out himself and apologized to us a couple of times for his play.

↑ Drixx wrote:Why would I scumread a claimed Mason with a partner chiming in to confirm? It seems highly unlikely that scum leaves you both alive a long time so you'll be confirmed. I can question your methodology

when you put a case together against me that is outright false and confirmably false just by looking at my ISO

. Just because I criticize your logic and point at flaws in your case on me doesn't mean jack shit. I can be critical of your shitty logic and not scum read you.

As far as the BP goes, I never said that I knew, for sure, that my immunity was against a scum faction. For all I know, the specific immunity I have is to a neutral. My role name has an etymological link to the faction I'm immune to and the ability name is an amusing reference to it.

TPTG - I asked Toon why he jumped straight to a claim because it didn't seem warranted to me. It didn't even occur to him to try and stop the wagon short of that? Any time someone does something that doesn't make sense, it's worth questioning.

As Osseus Psudotripodis would say LOOK AT DAT DISCREDIT (UT and I hydra)

Looking at your ISO reveals EXACTLY what I said. You can tell us that it is false all you like, you can discredit us all you like, but repeating the same rhetoric doesn't make it true. Calling us shit doesn't change the fact that you did the things I said you did. You DID want us to claim our partner, you DID tell Toon he should have played better, and you ARE discrediting us for scumreading you. These things are happening, they are in your ISO you can't pretend they didn't/aren't happening.

@Ivy
Since I can't sleep I'll put my replies in a spoiler:

He apologized AFTER I made that post. I wasn't trying to pile on there man. I was legitimately confused why he didn't try something the claim. It did seem legitimately confusing to me.

You seem super protective of people you know, to the point of pointedly being mad if anyone questions bad play on their part ... but you're prosecuting me hard core essentially for what you consider bad play. You don't see the obvious problem there?

As for what in my ISO that is objectively contradictory to your case, there's a super easy one: You claimed that I haven't done any scumhunting or pressuring of people after the OM thing, but off the top of my head I recall going after Lucian, Copper and your Mason friend (before his claim, and I also asked him why he jumped straight to claim, which was more curiosity than attack ... you seem to read "questioning what I say = attacking me" which just isn't the case).

Here's my bottom line Drixx, cause I need to get away from this thread.

You can't dispute that these things I'm accusing you of doing didn't happen, because they did. Now you can say "i intended this one way", and that's fine. Maybe you genuinely thought you were being helpful by asking Toon why he didn't play better. If you truly think that, that's your prerogative. But you need some awareness of how you come across to other players, and stop blaming me because you come across as scummy.. And to me, and maybe to other players, it looks like you are blaming Toon for having out himself as a Mason. I repeat it LOOKS like you are blaming him. Which is anti-town. I'll never know what your true intent was, I can only interpret it, and I see it as an anti-town thing. Much like I see other things you have done as anti-town. That is how I have seen some of the things you have done, and those are the things I have pointed out. It's not a narrative, it's not a body of work, it's not a personal attack, it is those particular instances in time that don't look like they come from a protown mindset. That's it. There is no agenda here, I'm not out to get you because of some silly argument you had with Kuribo. I'm out to get you because I think you have done things with scum motivation, and you continue to do some of those things (discrediting me) in an anti-town way. That's it. Take a step back and have some awareness as to why some players think you are scum, and stop blaming us for it.

@Drixx
Pretty much the only way I see the inconsistencies between your two roles being both town is if you are immune from some third party faction that I have very little reason to assume exists now, and I can totally see you using the information from your scum PM to improve your fakeclaim by claiming to be a bulletproof immune to that particular faction you know.

I also think the strong opposition to going back to you coming from sources I would have not expected, while Jackel98 was being piled on with utter joy, is also likely indicative of a good lynch vs a bad one.

↑ Drixx wrote:He apologized AFTER I made that post. I wasn't trying to pile on there man. I was legitimately confused why he didn't try something

before

the claim. It did seem legitimately confusing to me.

You seem super protective of people you know, to the point of pointedly being mad if anyone questions bad play on their part ... but you're prosecuting me hard core essentially for what you consider bad play. You don't see the obvious problem there?

As for what in my ISO that is objectively contradictory to your case, there's a super easy one: You claimed that I haven't done any scumhunting or pressuring of people after the OM thing, but off the top of my head I recall going after Lucian, Copper and your Mason friend (before his claim, and I also asked him why he jumped straight to claim, which was more curiosity than attack ... you seem to read "questioning what I say = attacking me" which just isn't the case).

Then I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to get across. Not that you aren't scumhunting (because there are two scumteams, everyone can legitimately scumhunt), but that you're not doing it with the rigor I think a town's player would do, and I felt you were leaving yourself open enough to change your stance and not look scum for it. Interpretation is the key term.

If you were legitimately confused about Toon's claim, that's fine, but understand how it looked to us when you did it. That is all I'm asking.

↑ Cerberus v666 wrote:Huh. Well, since the "masons" have apparently decided to reveal themselves...just so scum have infinite choices to make about who to shoot, I'll admit to being a neighbor, and ChriVi's neighbor at that, who has mod confirmation that ChriVi is town.

So you're for realz claiming neighbor? 'Cause I'm not sure if your comment right below this is supposed to cast this in a sarcastic light.

↑ LucianRoy wrote:Is everyone okay with Jackal?
Is everyone okay with me using my Vig-shot like this day-one?

Yes, I suppose
Yes

↑ deathfisaro wrote:ChriVi said the mod confirmation was 1 direction, so while Cerberus claiming neighbour and confirming ChriVi as town was very pro-town, I wouldn't say that also makes Cerberus conftown by claim.

So what purpose does cerbscum have to create a player he'll have to kill later on?

↑ Cerberus v666 wrote:I know that part isn't standard for neighbors, but ChriVi already claimed that it'sher?his?) partner had mod confirmation. ChriVi actually wants you to investigate me, so that way we're both as conftown as we could reasonably be...thus my mentioning all of it. Normally I wouldn't have, but there's really quite a lot of people who are at least going to be getting claims confirmed soon, enough to make it not as terrible to out our connection as I would normally find it to be.

I actually like this plan since I'd like you to be a town guy and prefer you out of the other currently conftown. (Toon's sketchy in the posting dept (by numbers, not content), ChriVi's still iffy cuz dumb, and I'm on the fence with TPTG)

↑ deathfisaro wrote:I wanted to see Jackel's ISO to answer this question but since he has so few posts I checked Jackel's recent posts through his profile instead of digging through the thread. And wow. Yes, shoot him.

If you wanted to ISO Jackel, why not just...yknow, use the ISO function at the bottom and do it that way?

↑ vonflare wrote:WhyWhyWhyNoWhatIDon'tUnderstand

Once you're actually caught up I'll humor you. Until then, get with the program, kthnx.

↑ Oranje Crush wrote:Fudge shoot someone now or we'll end up with too little time to make use of the shot. Kill jackal, he's scummy and it looks like you're chickening out.

Agreed.

↑ Titus wrote:Can someone give me the list of claims?

If this hasn't been done yet:

Drixx is a faction-specific BP. He knows what faction he is BP to, but has not stated it.
NMI/Marquis is a neighbor daycop, hence his requests for outing neighbors.
TPTG and Toon Fighter are masons.
ChriVi and Cerberus v666 are neighbors. Cerberus also claims that ChriVi is conftown.
Molla is a miller, and has a secondary part to his claim that I can't exactly remember. Something about if he or somebody is at L-2 at a certain point the night phase is skipped (will have to wait for him to state it or look back).
Lucian is a Vengilante, with both a 1-shot dayvig and a 1-shot vengeful.
ActionDan is also a BP, based on his interactions with Drixx. I don't believe he's outright said as much, but it's easily inferred. He has also not stated who he's BP to.

I think that's all of them.

↑ BRantz wrote:By the end of it I really liked the way Marquis/ice's argument with me went. As ridiculous as the whole situation leading up to Kuribo exploding was the interaction led to town feelings, so it was good. I have gotten a lot out of Drixx being wagoned. I think it is important that ActionDan is unwilling to interact with me, and that Lucian is unwilling to take a stand on anything. Deathfisaro vs Om argument felt very town vs town to me. Are there interactions you are particularly interested in? There have been a lot of interesting ones this game so far

What about drixx's wagon did you get (and why?)

Are there any other interactions you've seen that interest you? (Vys and Copper, Copper and me, etc.)

↑ copper223 wrote:but since I have been driving this town

Even if it's a statement of fact, I don't really like this statement.

I presume your role is just for actions? Will it catch things like bus drivers or other such roles used on your target? If they're redirected will you only see their new target?

Also, you should probably hold on to your other part until tomorrow.

Still feel like lynching Vyse. Onto page 64

-Ivy

P-EDIT: NOted, copper. I'll get to those when I reach them.

Sometimes I make over-generalizations to get my point across, I don't mean to imply you are actively not scumhunting is what I am saying. I oversimplify my 'narrative' so to speak to get my point across, not to misrepresent what I'm reading.

If you're being legitimately objective, then why did you claim I didn't do any scumhunting or pressuring of people after the OM wagon derailed, when I clearly did?

You seem perfectly fine bashing me and telling me that I'm scummy, and that's helpful, because I come from a completely different playgroup with a different site meta and I'm adjusting to how people go about certain things here. If I'm unintentionally being a jackhole, it's good to know when and why so I can adjust how I go about things. There's a world of difference between me violating unspoken accepted norms and saying something that's objectively false. I've been asking you for a few hours now to strip away the emotional reaction and just evaluate objectively, and you keep hammering me on subjective grounds. We're basically talking past each other here, and the shame of it all is that if you really are town, you're pushing to kill me when I'm super active and not actually a terrible player... while there's a bunch of useless layabouts who would be much better day 1 lynch targets.

FWIW.

@Copper - Simple question, since you think to believe that between AD and I, that I must be lying. When you see my flip and see I am honest, what will that make you think about ActionDan? You should already have gone through the mental exercise of assuming one of our claims is false and the other is true (and then vice versa) as well as assuming both are true and both are false. You seem to have decided that I'm lying and he's not. Therefore ... since it feels rather inevitable to me that you're going to see my claim in the near future unless I pull a miracle out of my arse ... what will you do when you realize I'm being 100% completely honest?

If you're being legitimately objective, then why did you claim I didn't do any scumhunting or pressuring of people after the OM wagon derailed, when I clearly did?

Note to self, look at Om wagon later.

I'm pushing you because I want to definitively decide your alignment, lynch or not. I have one vote, I can't lynch you by myself. I can push you hard however. (And The Beast knows a thing or two about pushing, if you know what I mean) ()

↑ Drixx wrote:@Copper - Simple question, since you think to believe that between AD and I, that I must be lying. When you see my flip and see I am honest, what will that make you think about ActionDan? You should already have gone through the mental exercise of assuming one of our claims is false and the other is true (and then vice versa) as well as assuming both are true and both are false. You seem to have decided that I'm lying and he's not. Therefore ... since it feels rather inevitable to me that you're going to see my claim in the near future unless I pull a miracle out of my arse ... what will you do when you realize I'm being 100% completely honest?

I think I already replied to that Drixx, my initial strategy which was discounted because it's suboptimal to shoot (why?) was to shoot you, look at your flip and based on that decide if I want to go after Dan, it would certainly make him a priority if your role PM is exactly as you said it is.

What do you reply to TPTG's point that Dan claiming a similar role to yours didn't make you question him overmuch? You still think given the new information that Dan dropped that he is town?

↑ Bulbasaur Commonwealth wrote:

↑ deathfisaro wrote:ChriVi said the mod confirmation was 1 direction, so while Cerberus claiming neighbour and confirming ChriVi as town was very pro-town, I wouldn't say that also makes Cerberus conftown by claim.

So what purpose does cerbscum have to create a player he'll have to kill later on?

He wants to get investigated by Marquis. Why? Either he's town or he's a miller that will return town when investigated. I think the latter is a bit of a stretch and unless backed up by scummy behaviors of Cerberus independent of neighbourhood business.

↑ Bulbasaur Commonwealth wrote:

↑ deathfisaro wrote:I wanted to see Jackel's ISO to answer this question but

since he has so few posts

I checked Jackel's recent posts through his profile instead of digging through the thread. And wow. Yes, shoot him.

If you wanted to ISO Jackel, why not just...yknow, use the ISO function at the bottom and do it that way?

I wasn't willing to go through who-knows-how-many-pages to find Jackel's post to get his ISO.

PROTIP: There is a drop down box at the bottom of the page that lists all the users in this thread. It's below the quick reply box (if you have that enabled)

I addressed it earlier, but I'll re-state. I think there's an edge case for AD being scum, but it doesn't make sense in context of how the claims unfolded.

The most basic principle of Mafia is to play to your win condition. It is not at all helpful to the town for me to sit here drawing a bunch of town attention. My role's utility is almost certainly compromised since the scum teams will have plenty of less risky targets to shoot, and leaving me alive with so much doubt about my alignment is a good smokescreen. I suggest, in all seriousness, that it might be advantageous to have Lucian shoot me and then that settles all the questions about my claim and role, confirms Lucian as probtown, leaves the scum teams facing no less than four people who are probably conftown plus worrying about other roles or anyone who maybe appears to be on to one of them.

In other words, me being dead brings a great deal of clarity to the gamestate and probably helps my team far more than me staying alive and providing a good cover/smokescreen for team scum. Unless there's a way out of this mess that will have similarly good results, I suggest this as a plan to help my wincon. This is a play for saving myself and I'm being serious.

Oooooooooooh
Took me 8 games to find that out

↑ Drixx wrote:I addressed it earlier, but I'll re-state. I think there's an edge case for AD being scum, but it doesn't make sense in context of how the claims unfolded.

You did say so earlier, but at the time Dan hadn't yet disclosed that he claims to be BP to all scum factions, how do you reconcile your two roles then if it's most likely you are both town?

Not gonna lie, the rest of the post reads pretty town.

No, no vig shot on Drixx. Either we lynch him or we don't.

As for why, because Drixx has been a contentious player in this game and Lucian shooting him means no one has to take a definitive stance on him, and thus we actually don't learn anything about the other players as it relates to him. A lynch forces people to vote for him or produce a counter wagon. Both are infinitely more useful to the game state.

↑ God of Power Outlets wrote:As for why, because Drixx has been a contentious player in this game and Lucian shooting him means no one has to take a definitive stance on him, and thus we actually don't learn anything about the other players as it relates to him. A lynch forces people to vote for him or produce a counter wagon. Both are infinitely more useful to the game state.

There was already a pretty significant wagon on me earlier, and there's also quite a lot of people who have weighed in on me with the more recent push. Do you really think the lurkers are gonna come out of the woodwork to commit one way or another now? I'm being completely earnest and sincere here. I have seen well meaning and skilled town players be used as a smokescreen for days before and anything they did to try and stop it just made it worse. All it takes is a little misunderstanding and even the best player {which is many levels above me} can be a huge detract from his wincon. I seriously would rather be dead than hurt my team. Simple as that.