A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[Axelrod]

You also made a point about scum-replace-outs in #1211, which is kind of meta, and I think you were using it to argue that Swords' replace-out was more likely from scum (also because of his meta).

[SirCakez]

Did Cakez ever reply to this point?

I did not, missed that. That's a fair point.
Investigation on him is probably the best option with this big argument imo.

Unvote
Vote: Ranger

Look at the scum following the wagons everywhere. Seniors is doing the exact same thing.

Ranger wagon is def a scum counterwagon to Seniors/Mirhawk. Like Seniors is just following Spiffeh's vote, it's pretty sad.
Axel - the only thing I'm doing are meta reads? The fuck

Well, looking back, you weren't doing it so much at the beginning of the game (which is when I was liking your posts). There were just a couple minor ones (#131, #149, #399) which didn't bother me at all. But seemed like starting around Dramonic, you started making reads on a lot of people based on their "metas." Dramonic (#733, #884, #1023, #1026, #1028), Sakura Hana (#1109), Swordsworth (#1112, #1328), Snarky (#1328, 1550), Ranger (#1364, #1412), and the last (little) one was Cerebrus (#1502).

That's what I'm talking about.

It's one thing to feel like you know how someone plays, but it's just lazy to write off someone's scummy behavior because they "always play like this", or to just assert that X play is their "Town" play. And it seems like your been doing that more as we've been going deeper, which is backwards from what it should be.

Yes I use meta to avoid some lynchbait players like Dram and Snarky. Ranger genuinely feels town to me and I don't like these cases on her. Is meta a part of it? Yea but that's not the whole thing. And using meta isn't a scumtell regardless.

[Skybird]

No, I'm saying that's all you got. And I totally disagree that 723 was scummy in the first place.

EP, you are better than this. If I was really scum, you should be able to come up with much more evidence.

Oh? Really? What have you done that you think is so scummy that it would be easy for EP to find evidence?

Me? Nothing. That's the point.

[Skybird]

Oh my god skybird post is so scum as well.

Explain.

You are self proclaiming you are always scum read. That is a terrible defense

In spite of my suspicion of her, I must confirm that is indeed a fact, no matter how bad a defense it is.

Thanks Cerb, I think.

[Mirhawk]

Look at the scum following the wagons everywhere. Seniors is doing the exact same thing.

So you think Seniors is scum too? Why aren't you voting for him, its the bigger wagon.

Are you afraid you'll have to justify a scumread?

[SirCakez]

I think you're both scum but the Seniors wagon has some irky people (Snarky, tictac) on it while this one is pretty clean.

[podoboq]

I like how he's engaged with other players. He mentions things he finds scummy, asks about them, and requires that people justify their actions. That's how I play the game.

I like how he was hard on beeboy for the Sakura waffling, specifically.

Are you townreading everybody but dramonic and snarky then? Everyone else is more or less scumhunting.

Some players aren't actually following up on questions they ask, while as far as I can tell, Cakez is. However, you pointed out a good example where he didn't, in reference to his townreading dramonic based on meta reasons.

The kicker is that in general, I agree with Cakez. So while Seniors for example is engaging with players, mentioning things he finds scummy, asking about them, then requiring people to justify their actions, I don't agree with their line of questioning as often as I do with Cakez's.

[Spiffeh]

Cakez instead of just calling Mirhawk and FS scum repeatedly why don't you actually try to convince me of it?

[SirCakez]

I asked earlier if you wanted a case, I can build one if you do.

[podoboq]

Ranger wagon is def a scum counterwagon to Seniors/Mirhawk. Like Seniors is just following Spiffeh's vote, it's pretty sad.
Axel - the only thing I'm doing are meta reads? The fuck

Well, looking back, you weren't doing it so much at the beginning of the game (which is when I was liking your posts). There were just a couple minor ones (#131, #149, #399) which didn't bother me at all. But seemed like starting around Dramonic, you started making reads on a lot of people based on their "metas." Dramonic (#733, #884, #1023, #1026, #1028), Sakura Hana (#1109), Swordsworth (#1112, #1328), Snarky (#1328, 1550), Ranger (#1364, #1412), and the last (little) one was Cerebrus (#1502).

That's what I'm talking about.

It's one thing to feel like you know how someone plays, but it's just lazy to write off someone's scummy behavior because they "always play like this", or to just assert that X play is their "Town" play. And it seems like your been doing that more as we've been going deeper, which is backwards from what it should be.

OK, this is the kind of case I was asking for.

I think I'm OK with a Cakez lynch today, after that. If nothing else, a lot of information comes from a Cakez town-flip, while an FS town-flip wouldn't be as beneficial to town.

[podoboq]

I asked earlier if you wanted a case, I can build one if you do.

I want a case. I'm asking you for a case.

[SirCakez]

Wtf is the progression from 1756 to 1759
brb for case

[Spiffeh]

I asked earlier if you wanted a case, I can build one if you do.

Why should I have to request one?

I don't see why you'd wait for an invitation to justify your scum reads when you see momentum is building on someone you're NOT scum reading so close to deadline.

[podoboq]

Wtf is the progression from 1756 to 1759
brb for case

I've agreed with scum before. Look at our newbie game, with Ness and I. We were in sync most of the game. It could be town with legitimately good opinions in line with my own, or scum with easy opinions to agree with.

I was using it as a reason to townread you, but it's not enough, and these last few days have displayed a lot of potential scum play on your part. Axelrod made a good case, and that put me over the line on you.

[SirCakez]

Because there has been a shitload of cases on Seniors in thread and building another one feels pointless but ok.

[podoboq]

As far as the Cakez things goes, I'm torn, because I was kinda town-reading Tammy, and obviously Cakez. I'm open to reassessing the Cakez thing, and if someone can make a (real) case on him, I'll consider voting their, but I still think FS has been the right lynch for a while now.

For reference.

If you're going to point out a progression, you might want to start it where it actually begins.

[Spiffeh]

Those never really convinced me

If you're just gonna restate them don't bother

I was more talking about Mirhawk

[Spiffeh]

To clarify

I have my own issues with FS that have been ignored by people pushing them in favor of bullshittier reasons

These issues are minor compared to my other scum reads though and I think the EP head in particular has looked really town recently

[SirCakez]

I'm already basically done with the Seniors case so I'll just post it anyway.

[SirCakez]

Seniors is scum because

-Initial Snarky vote in 96 was terrible. This has been hashed over a lot but basically both players should have known Snarky is lynchbait and that was a terrible vote.

-263 case on me was a boatload of misrep, went over this in 275

-Podo case stinks in 479. Nothing there is actually scum-indicative.

-Basically throws a temper tantrum and stops doing anything to scumhunt in 651. 665 is another bad vote follow up.

-845 is a dumptruck of useless questions because ??? Trying to look like they are doing something is what I think.

-855 makes no sense. "Hard skimming, makes sense for him to be town" lol what

-In 1256, calls Ranger town. 1465 Ranger is meh. 1467 says "why us over Ranger", basically calling Ranger a scumread. 1474 votes Ranger
This progression is balls

-1615 - waits for three other people to vote me before actually voting. Looks like scum making sure the wagon goes somewhere.

-1639 - back to "don't want to lynch Ranger". ???

-1654 - discredits their entire wagon, calls everyone on their wagon shitty/scummy. Terrible reaction.

-1704 - back to Ranger after "not wanting to lynch Ranger" earlier and only after the votes started moving back to Ranger. Scum following the wagons.

Wheee done
mirhawk next

[The Pied Piper]

did I hallucinate the part where I quoted the points that I thought were bad and told him they were bad and why
because if i did then i'll be happy to do that now.

Hey Errant,

While I don't think that you didn't do this, I think that the way you went about it wasn't going to result in a productive response. Yes, beeboy's push on you was sort of needless aggression and nothing else, fighting fire with fire that is not as intense but isn't fire isn't exactly a recipe for a reasonable talk about your alignment.

This is EP

This is EP's scum game dodging parts where he isn't comfortable and coming in with walls

haven't read everything but holy shit this might be the most harebrained accusation that i have ever seen. and i've seen some shitty cases.

"HEY EP WASN'T HERE AT THE START OF THE GAME MUST BE SCUM!!!"
"DISREGARD THE FACT THAT EP WASN'T POSTING IN ANY OTHER GAMES"
"OR MIGHT HAVE HAD OTHER SHIT TO DO"
"YEAH THIS IS EP CLEARLY DODGING START OF THE GAME"

seriously beeboy? Do you want to rethink your life or your play?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=175

EP in the game I played with him when he was scum he avoiding pushing all the primary wagons early on.

this is you looking surface at my scumplay and not actually understanding how people play as scum. I look ath things that i find objectively scummy and push them. If you cared to read the deadthread in invaders you would actually know that. Do your meta research, don't go "oh hey EP did this one thing as scum in one game I played with them so they must be scum ya ya?"

-EP

DAMMIT
FUCK

[Friendless Seniors]

hey cakez, you realize town does not act super productive all the time, right? a lot of your case seems to be based on some weird concept that town is hard working, productive and collaborative while scum is lurky and mean.

I don't know if that's how you really feel or if you're scum, but even if I WERE scum, that isn't a good case. Things like the "skimming the thread in a way that I see coming from town", that's a common thing town does. Obviously not ideal, but scum skimming and town skimming are very different and the difference is usually quite apparent. both skim thread, scum are skimming for very different things than town are

[Friendless Seniors]

also your case appears to be: hydra dissonance?

[The Pied Piper]

If the goal here is to get beeboy to stop tunneling you, it seems smarter to engage him on the few points than he's brought up as opposed to calling his post garbage and then asking him to do something about it.

honestly nacho, it is SUPER difficult to have a reasonable discussion with a crazy person screaming in your face frothing at the mouth. He started it based on lies and continues it based on lies, I pointed those out and am uninterested and pushing this any further

Ogre's stances this game make no sense. However, I actually think hes town from it. I don't think hes reading the game very closely, and seems to be hard skimming in a sorta townie way.

I don't get why Cakez is being allowed to skid along like this

Which of Ogre's stances don't make sense to you?

[SirCakez]

Why Mirhawk is scum (went through his ISO to back up main points)

-The entire "dave is scum for calling someone out for pulling back on hydra discussion" push stunk. That was not indicative at all, I see town do things akin to that all the time.

-349 - the whole "fencesitting miller" thing. This has been hashed over a ton but yeah looks like scum who knew they were both town.

-852 - Makes a big deal out of "not liking" PP's post then says "not scumreading them for it". Wtf is that, why even bring it up then?

-865, 878 - what the hell are these?

-895 - this accusation sucks. "I find your post kind of weird. Mostly due to the fact that the people you comment on are pretty spread out between the various groups of players."
That's not scummy at all.

-908 - "I DID know Ami was lying."
???
911 doesn't make it any better.

A lot of junk about the fencesitting

-969 - this still isn't a scumtell?

-1002 - Wrong Lynch is in your scum pool? Why haven't you pushed this at all? He hasn't even voted them.

-His Dav push basically completely dissolves because...? No explanation given.

-1335, 1341, 1342 - Initiates a push on Ranger, but no vote to back it up until way later in 1748. Looks like waiting for someone else to start the wagon so he can hop on.

-1612 - suddenly develops a scumread on me, his counterwagon, only after Spiffeh and Tammy start a wagon. In 1585, he says he only wants to vote me a bit? That progression is fake af.
1700 is fake, literally zero mention of ISOing or checking other games until justification requested.

-1748 - right to Ranger as soon as the wagon shifted to her. All his recent voted are just "follow someone else" and he's not actually starting any push without someone else going first.

Tl;dr
-Dave push early on stinks and was dropped randomly.
-Miller fencesit thing still sucks.
-Recent votes have just been following wherever other people go and he's not voting anyone until at least two other people go there first.