In post 1530, Reasonably Rational wrote:Thor, unfortunately every wagon this game while you're alive is going to be robbed of that info, because you entered the game seemingly eager to quickhammer someone. I will *never* put someone at L-1 without being okay with them getting lynched without even getting to claim because of that. There will always be similar concern that we not only have to worry about scum lolhammering and trying to get away with it, but also someone of unknown alignnment who has publicly expressed an interest in doing that.
-Cerb
In post 1760, Jingle wrote:FWIW Thor is a fan of quickwagoning, not lolhammering ime. He (as town) is more than capable of respecting the L-1 -> intent -> claim -> evaluate claim modus operandi. If he chose to hammer preclaim and didn't have a good reason for it, I'd be down to lynch him for BoP.
*strokes beard* (my hypothetical one, not Thor's)
Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:07 pm
by BuJaber
In post 1729, Jingle wrote:The thread is not active enough. Despite the fact that half of your content posts have been complaining about how people were talking too much and were probably scum inflating the thread.
Yes posting =/= content. There was no content when they were inflating the thread, hence it was scum inflating the thread.
And I stand by my position on RC v Tora. If you disagree good for you. You can hand out cookies to all of us and we can all be pleasant to each other and let scum win.
As for me I'd like to sort people and then I can be my normal nice self after the game. I am always careful not to insult the people playing even if I may insult their play. I don't think I crossed any lines.
It is absolutely correct that it is easier to sort RC and Tora when they are heated than when they are not. You're lying to yourself if you don't think so. It's not even specific to these 2. It's pretty much easier to sort ANYONE when they're heated because they have less filtration/time to think between the reactive thought and the posting.
That's why scum 'flailing' is one of the more common scumtells when a scum player is about to be lynched.
The rest of your post just disagrees with my process and that's whatever. I don't post my thoughts to get people to sheep my opinion. I do it so I can ISO myself later, and to gauge reactions, and to help me narrow down a scum pool from All players > some players > small group > possible scum teams, it's a game-long process because it adapts to new information presented. When I focus on the person that I'm voting that's when I might try to shepherd voters to join me. It really depends on how confident I am, how I view the influence I have on the game. Sometimes I'll just prove myself right at the end of the game and it's their choice if they want to improve themselves to learn from it and accept different viewpoints and approaches to the game. Because at the end of the game I look at the game and evaluate where I could have communicated more persuasively and where I failed as that is my weakest part of my town game: communication.
I don't know what the weakest part of my scum game is.. it's still in the development stage. Trying new things and finding a comfortable zone/range.
TPF - are you saying you don't believe Elsa's 3p claim?
Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:21 pm
by CheekyTeeky
BuJaber the reason your "cross-section" of scum theory doesn't work is because you've looked at the votes out of context pre-flip. You've neglected to see the purpose of wagoning for info which could be valuable later on. Another flaw in this theory is that it is based on the assumption that scum will just jump on every building wagon in the hope of a mislynch which is completely illogical. It makes more sense for scum (imo) to be careful with their voting trail which often leads to either overexplanation or cogdis before jumping on a wagon. Hence it's better to compare people's reasons for jumping on (although you'll need to look at intent rather than taking posts at face value) wagons. Even then using VCA and looking at reasoning is only useful once we know the alignment of the wagonee. What if (although unlikely) both of the two wagons you were comparing were on scum? What if one was on scum and one on town? How do you know both were on town and how do you know the wagoners were intending to follow through with the lynch?
So if your sorting looks like not very useful busy work for the sake of busy work it's not unexpected that people will think you're scum for it.
Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:04 pm
by BuJaber
Well then I'd be wrong.
But I've made it clear I TR RR and flicker's claim kinda seems townie (though tbh it's not enough to outweigh the earliet scumminess) so my analysis is assuming they're both town because of these reads. Also these weren't wagons people joined to actually lynch them. They were bs wagons. That's why I chose those 2 specifically and not any other wagons. I don't think all the people who voted for these 2 were intending to unvote but I think some people definitely did. And it's those I find really suspicious. I think in most cases town join wagons that have scum equity even if the main reason for voting is for pressure or info you know? Like a townie doesn't go in thinking 'this probably flips town but I'll join it to see what happens'. If the slot is null or a scumlean then yes maybe. So like townies would not go in there EXPECTING the wagon to fizzle and die. Scum would.
But I wasn't able to discern this kind of motive just from the posting / reasoning they're voting alone because like everyone claimed they have a scumread of varying degrees on RR and flicker.
So I felt like I had to look for something less direct. I figured the people who voted then unvoted on BOTH wagons would likely contain scum because scum are more likely to be consistent in their approach than town.
Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:06 pm
by BuJaber
Like all I care about is finding that first scum flip. After that the scumhunting process has a bit more depth to it.
So like me not including someone in the intersect doesn't mean they aren't scummy, but there's enough there to believe that there is scum in the intersect and to try and figure which one of them it is so that we achieve this scum flip.
In post 1753, Elsa Jay wrote:I got distracted by PORKENS and Thor just now. Let me reread that...
Yeah, all excellent points for BuJabers demise. I'll vote later as like the hammer or something if it gets to that. But can you get everyone to click that spoiler tag and actually read it? Convincing all these personalities to agree with each other when most of them want each other dead will be hard.
In post 1742, Toogeloo wrote:Scum is the combined anti town element.
Mafia is a team.
That's one way to say it, but I meant the team's actual name in the flavor. And aren't Scum/Mafia/Werewolf usually used interchangeably when they apply?
Does anyone know the name of the flavor of 'Mafia' we're dealing with?
In post 1781, BuJaber wrote:So like townies would not go in there EXPECTING the wagon to fizzle and die. Scum would.
What? Why? To hide the fact that they're mislynching someone? Isn't it in scum's best interest to mislynch town rather than hope the wagons fizzle out? If they were afraid of mislynching wouldn't they just vanity wagon elsewhere?
I'm confused.
Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:39 pm
by CheekyTeeky
In post 1781, BuJaber wrote:I figured the people who voted then unvoted on BOTH wagons would likely contain scum because scum are more likely to be consistent in their approach than town.
Wouldn't it be more consistent to build a case and stay on one person?
In post 1781, BuJaber wrote:So like townies would not go in there EXPECTING the wagon to fizzle and die. Scum would.
What? Why? To hide the fact that they're mislynching someone? Isn't it in scum's best interest to mislynch town rather than hope the wagons fizzle out? If they were afraid of mislynching wouldn't they just vanity wagon elsewhere?
I'm confused.
No it's because d1 quicklynches rarely happen, they know if an early wagon got some steam they don't have to really make up a big case to vote there because it won't end up getting hammered. To actually go ahead and mislynch you need to actually push for a wagon and see it through, which means you have to actually present a case on it and continue to push it.
The other reason is to PR hunt. The more wagons they can get close to hammering, even if they don't get their mislynch they will probably get a claim out of it. It's win-win for them.
Town don't care about either of those things. They are less likely to join a wagon just for the lols. A townie joining a wagon has to justify it for themselves. Is there a benefit to it or not, will it help lynch scum or help you identify scum?
Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:48 pm
by BuJaber
As for Jingle I don't know I didn't really get a chance to sort tw before the rep-out. I don't like that she seems to scumread me mainly for the way I play as that part constituted the bigger chunk of her case. I don't know if she actually believes there's any scum motivation there. Because playstyle isn't a reason to scumread someone. And the RC thing.. what does she imagine I gain as scum from a solo push on RC/chara? What does she think I gain as scum from publicly stating that we were better off with the fight to continue WHEN I SAID THAT AT A TIME THE FIGHT WAS DYING OFF. If I wanted to create a toxic situation why wouldn't I egg it on earlier? Why would I, as someone who knows that Tora and RC get on each others' nerves, wouldn't have tried to get them to fight in the first place?
But it actually takes a lot of effort to catchup and make up a case like that especially on someone who despite always getting scumread to some extent, hasn't been mislynched on d1 very often.
So I actually find it scummier that toog, chick, chara and you seemed to agree that her case is actually good.
Calling that a good case and indirectly encouraging more bad cases like that is scummier than presenting the case itself.
Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:51 pm
by BuJaber
In post 1754, Thor665 wrote:Both cases are decent enough - people should pick one.
This is scummy too.. the case on me isn't decent at all and if you did think so why wouldn't you join my wagon if it's closer to getting lynched than TFP's?
In post 1530, Reasonably Rational wrote:Thor, unfortunately every wagon this game while you're alive is going to be robbed of that info, because you entered the game seemingly eager to quickhammer someone. I will *never* put someone at L-1 without being okay with them getting lynched without even getting to claim because of that. There will always be similar concern that we not only have to worry about scum lolhammering and trying to get away with it, but also someone of unknown alignnment who has publicly expressed an interest in doing that.
FWIW Thor is a fan of quickwagoning, not lolhammering ime. He (as town) is more than capable of respecting the L-1 -> intent -> claim -> evaluate claim modus operandi. If he chose to hammer preclaim and didn't have a good reason for it, I'd be down to lynch him for BoP.
Holy cow, someone who doesn't assess a joke by assuming it's hard truth and that I'm a raging nutball who doesn't know how to play the game, and maybe glanced at my wiki or any newbie I've ever ICed or any game where I had hammer chance.
Refreshing
In post 1754, Thor665 wrote:Both cases are decent enough - people should pick one.
This is scummy too.. the case on me isn't decent at all and if you did think so why wouldn't you join my wagon if it's closer to getting lynched than TFP's?
Well, for starters;
1. I started the wagon you are currently the counterwagon to.
2. My wagon has been doing a good job staying competitive with yours.
3. Me considering it a decent case (which it is) does not mean I actually fully agree with the case.
1. I started the wagon you are currently the counterwagon to.
2. My wagon has been doing a good job staying competitive with yours.
3. Me considering it a decent case (which it is) does not mean I actually fully agree with the case.
So why are you spewing this nonsense at me?
You said both are decent and are telling people to pick one of them. If either one works for you why not go for the bigger wagon?
Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:46 am
by Thor665
Yes, I asked people to pick *one* of them.
Congrats - you spotted how I followed my own request?
Brilliant work - glad we had this conversation?
Are you trying to argue for your lynch? This is a very strange conversation and really oddball attack.
Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:51 am
by Thor665
Is the theory you're town, TPFKAP is town, and I'm scum utterly indifferent to the wagons?
In that case, wouldn't I be perfectly happy to move if I was indifferent?
So at that point then I'm scum and have a preference to lynch TPFKAP - which would suggest you're my scumpartner, something I'm guessing you're not arguing.
So then we go to you're still both town, but I'm scum who is scared to be on a town lynch wagon and am quietly trying to shove it through - which considering how loud and proud I've been about TPFKAP's wagon (and, frankly, even two minutes spent looking at any scum game I've ever been in) will suggest I'm not scared to be on a town lynch wagon nor to spearhead one.
So...then that leaves us with...what?
I don't get this.
What are you actually accusing me of other than showing that you aren't paying attention to my stated beliefs and are generically against anyone thinking the case on you is (terror of terrors) "decent".
Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:51 am
by Elsa Jay
Jaber, at this point I'm rooting for the Porken lynch if for no other reason then they aren't even trying to contribute to the thread, and unlike Robin are trying to lie about it. You, atleast for now, can contribute to the conversation.
Plus both times they came in without reading amd called me scum. So yeah. Fuck em. Take this blessing to not get hung and vote TPFKAP or whatever the acronym is.
Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:11 am
by Toogeloo
But... you are scum lol. I mean, town is willing to leash you, but that doesn't change your nature.
In post 1753, Elsa Jay wrote:I got distracted by PORKENS and Thor just now. Let me reread that...
Yeah, all excellent points for BuJabers demise. I'll vote later as like the hammer or something if it gets to that. But can you get everyone to click that spoiler tag and actually read it? Convincing all these personalities to agree with each other when most of them want each other dead will be hard.
In post 1742, Toogeloo wrote:Scum is the combined anti town element.
Mafia is a team.
That's one way to say it, but I meant the team's actual name in the flavor. And aren't Scum/Mafia/Werewolf usually used interchangeably when they apply?
Does anyone know the name of the flavor of 'Mafia' we're dealing with?
In post 1796, Toogeloo wrote:But... you are scum lol. I mean, town is willing to leash you, but that doesn't change your nature.
I swear this'll keep coming to bite you in the ass, Toog, if you keep mentioning this little thing.
Trust me.
Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:38 am
by Jingle
In post 1776, BuJaber wrote:
Yes posting =/= content. There was no content when they were inflating the thread, hence
it was scum inflating the thread
.
And I stand by my position on RC v Tora. If you disagree good for you. You can hand out cookies to all of us and we can all be pleasant to each other and let scum win.
As for me I'd like to sort people and then I can be my normal nice self after the game. I am always careful not to insult the people playing even if I may insult their play. I don't think I crossed any lines.
It is
absolutely correct that it is easier to sort RC and Tora when they are heated than when they are not
. You're lying to yourself if you don't think so. It's not even specific to these 2. It's pretty much easier to
sort ANYONE when they're heated because they have less filtration/time to think between the reactive thought and the posting
.
That's why scum 'flailing' is one of the more common scumtells when a scum player is about to be lynched.
The rest of your post
just disagrees with my process
and that's whatever.
Snipped for readability.
The problem with the bolded isn't that you took either stance, but that you took both. Simultaneously. RC and Tora are fighting over nothing, so they are inflating the thread, but ALSO you are happy with letting them fight.
The underlined: No it isn't. It's easier to sort some people when they get to a certain level of angry. In this case, the argument had devolved to "You always scumread me and are an asshole." vs "You won't stop replacing into my games and are an asshole." Both players were arguing from a position of "I don't care about his alignment, lynch him". The only outcomes there are being able to read the fight as not SvS (Already obvious at that point) and the fight making so much noise the thread got choked with it causing apathy. People are easier to read when they're off balance, not when they're raging at each other to the point where the argument isn't about the game. Then it's just noise that people have to wade through to find tiny grains of real content.
Boiling down the rest of my case to the italicized is a major misrep as well. For example "Passively supporting a lynch while simultaneously distancing yourself from it" is by no means a "playstyle difference". It's a scum motivated tool for a lack of accountability. Why?
Well lets look at your current line of argument. The intersect between the two wagons probably has scum. Surprisingly, you're not in that intersect, because despite the fact that you supported the RR lynch, you never placed a vote there. If you'd like, I can go dig up supporting evidence.
Also not mentioned: the mental gymnastics required to somehow paint putting RR at L-1 as towny for baiting a scum quicklynch and scummy for... Baiting a scumquicklynch? And then not doing that.
![:]](./images/smilies/icon_smiling.png "Cheerful Smile"){kind=icon}
