Square Enix Mafia I: Diabolus Erus (GAME OVER)

[AdumbroDeus]

Ah, I see. My debator nature taking over. So from both a pro-town prospective and a "not being revealed as scum" prospective I should've just said, "yeah, he's obvious lich for these reasons" and proceeded to grill them about concentrating on a mostly dead scumteam when there was a strong possibility of a full one?



Nice to know so I don't make that mistake as town (or scum), because I know I would've done it regardless of my faction in that situation.

[Antifinity]

The scum complaining about the elemental interactions are just Wrong.

The fact elements even exist was only know to a few, the nk proof monster, and the death miller octopus.

Of those, only Ultros could force compliance to the elemental witchhunt and, he only becomes useful after one of the scum has already been killed.

Of course, to actually figure out who has what element by your method, you'd need to either sucessfully lynch the victim, or go through a great number of votes each day, Likely while Doom still exists. And let's not forget the false leads, like 'immune to all elements'

[Glork]

Ah, I see. My debator nature taking over. So from both a pro-town prospective and a "not being revealed as scum" prospective I should've just said, "yeah, he's obvious lich for these reasons" and proceeded to grill them about concentrating on a mostly dead scumteam when there was a strong possibility of a full one?



Nice to know so I don't make that mistake as town (or scum), because I know I would've done it regardless of my faction in that situation.

Eh, you sort of touched on the tactical error. What consumed me was making sure that I knew every option the town could take, and then focusing exclusively on which options would give the town the best chance of winning. You, Chrono, and Dram put strong emphasis on "BILL IS LICH" to the point where it became a distraction from what any good townsperson should have been looking at -- namely, who do we lynch first, what do we do about our doctors, and who are JP/Chrono's scumbuddies.

As far as how you treated Bill, your mistake was that you arrived at "Bill is Lich" far too quickly. So did Dram, and Chrono. I had a sneaking suspicion that Bill could be Lich, but no concrete evidence, so my suspicions were just that -- suspicions. Chrono and Dram jumped all over an alleged scumslip because they

knew

that Bill had tried to Doom JP, but that it failed due to JP being undead. That kind of instant conclusion is not one that I think any townsperson with no knowledge of the scumgroups could assume. Heck, until Dram said "shut up, you're Lich and you obviously tried to Doom JP as Scar," I wasn't even convinced that the other scumgroup was the Four Archfiends. The distinction in posting is that, while you/Chrono/Dram were all "YEP BILL IS OBVSCUM," not ONE of the protown players made that conclusion so quickly, because none of us had the information to do so. The three of you just tag-teamed Bill like "yep, this is totally obv," when it was in fact very not obvious to the uninformed majority.

[Chronopie]

I even posted a Bill-Lich iso.

Besides, we didn't have any info relevant to Bill-Lich more than the town. (Barring confirmed Lich = Doom earlier.)

[Iecerint]

1. You have to look at all of PD's claims. He left out the bulletproof part once. That was where he screwed up.
2. I (Ultros) knew nothing about elements at all. I don't know why everyone thinks I did. That's why I was so confused when dram was like CLAIM YR ELEMENT D1 and I had to ask Kise whether I had one.
2. I agree with Glorky.

[PranaDevil]

1. You have to look at all of PD's claims. He left out the bulletproof part once. That was where he screwed up.

No.

That was one part where I screwed up, the others were... well, the rest of my claim pretty much.

[Iecerint]

Inconsistency is reasonable basis for a (mis)lynch. If someone tried to get Cassandra points after that sort of mislynch, I'd suspect them.

[PranaDevil]

Also regarding elements, me being Elemental Townie, and obviously not a basic human character, meant I assumed not all element based characters could be scum (I also forgot that theres the whole "provide with a safe claim" stuff, which was why I defended the Ramuh claim). I'd also figured we may have mages and the like who could cast some kind of spells, and thus I would be safe from those too.

The reason I never said bulletproof was because a) I didn't feel I was completely bulletproof, and b) Tying into that, I felt I was vulnerable to Doom, which wouldn't make me completely safe.

Incidentally, as Doom isn't (as far as I'm aware) an elemental attack, would that have worked on me Kise?

[AdumbroDeus]

I think it should've been obvious to everyone when I brought it up to be quite frank, his target choice was far too inconsistent but after that well thought out argument which was for picking out the safe choice. There was no way that it had simply slipped his mind.

[AdumbroDeus]

Antifinity, as soon as it was revealed that one scum was elemental, it became a neon sign saying "this guy is scum", especially when both groups of scum were revealed to be members of the 4 elemental fiends groups.

Forcing claims, then using process of elimination when you hit an elemental to figure out who could and could not be elementals created cleared townies incredibly quickly.

[Iecerint]

As a 3rd party observer -- it wasn't that you thought Bill was Lich (which seemed clear in general), but that you seemed to think that that meant he should be the lynch, no questions asked.

[AdumbroDeus]

...

I thought Bill was the lynch?


Nobody who was paying attention could've said that, not only was I pushing for Chrono's lynch since basically when Bill posted (as a safety measure), I explicitly indicted most of the people who were pushing for the bill lynch at least partially for pushing for it.

[Iecerint]

OHOHOH. My mistake. I confused you with someone else.

I wasn't sure that you were scum. You were the last mystery one on your team IIRC.

[Glork]

I think it should've been obvious to everyone when I brought it up to be quite frank, his target choice was far too inconsistent but after that well thought out argument which was for picking out the safe choice. There was no way that it had simply slipped his mind.

If you want to sit here and pretend that your play was flawlessly consistent with how you would have been if you were town, you're more than welcome to.

I saw a pair of trends in posting that all three scum (who were posting at the time) shared, and that none of the three towns (who were posting at the time) shared, and it led me to finding those three scums and correctly slotting them with JP. So from where I'm sitting, the scums committed reliable tells, hence they made a mistake.

[AdumbroDeus]

Actually, you gave me plenty of useful information, my take-away point from this is, "don't play too smart, or people will think you're scum".


I guess that's the meta atm and I gotta roll with it, but you were lucky this time.

[PranaDevil]

I don't think it's so much as "don't play too smart" but more "don't play too smart in knowing what scum can have". It did pretty much boil down to being yourself or Anti as scum from what I could tell, and Glork's idea at the end had the game won for town in either situation, of your team you were the least scummy. It's just unfortunate that the rest of your team didn't so much get bussed, as throw themselves in front of it by the end of the game.

[Devotress]

This is the part where I'd go into the graveyard all like "wow can you believe that CRAZY thing that guy just said"


But no one will read the graveyard anymore so I post it here.

[Glork]

you were lucky this time.

Yes, because using a classic scumtell which went 6 for 6 in this game is clearly luck. In my younger days, I used to come to the right conculsion as scum too quickly, too, and I know I've been caught doing it. (I want to say Committee Mafia is an example, but I'm too lazy to go research it.)

Anywho, Prana's more correct. It's not "don't play smart," because smart play is always a boon to your side. This is not a game for idiots. It's "don't play in a manner that leads you to draw conclusions that rely on scum-only information."

[PranaDevil]

Anywho, Prana's more correct.

Had to wait until after the game, but I said something right eventually. XD

[SpyreX]

Glork
Burdened by Proficiency

^^^

Yea. Glork was awesome and it wasn't happenstance.

[AdumbroDeus]

I don't think it's so much as "don't play too smart" but more "don't play too smart in knowing what scum can have". It did pretty much boil down to being yourself or Anti as scum from what I could tell, and Glork's idea at the end had the game won for town in either situation, of your team you were the least scummy. It's just unfortunate that the rest of your team didn't so much get bussed, as throw themselves in front of it by the end of the game.

Eh, but that's the thing, all my reasoning was from public knowledge, and we couldn't communicate in the day, so if JG had any special reason for believing bill was scum, I sure as hell wasn't aware of it. As far as mechanics, don't tell me that any of you believed that 3 members of the FF1 elemental fiends appeared as scum and there wasn't a forth, and he wasn't earth elemental. Scarm was earth elemental (flavor), and we already knew that earth elementals canceled each other out, and you died telling us abilities got absorbed by same elements.


Anything beyond that, I was as much in the dark about as the rest of town, but when he when after the unsafe choice after an argument that had safety as it's implicit basis, it clicked immediately.


So yeah, I played too smart, it pisses me off to know that I did it, but whatever.

you were lucky this time.

Yes, because using a classic scumtell which went 6 for 6 in this game is clearly luck. In my younger days, I used to come to the right conculsion as scum too quickly, too, and I know I've been caught doing it. (I want to say Committee Mafia is an example, but I'm too lazy to go research it.)

Anywho, Prana's more correct. It's not "don't play smart," because smart play is always a boon to your side. This is not a game for idiots. It's "don't play in a manner that leads you to draw conclusions that rely on scum-only information."

It's "don't play so smart as it leads people to believe you're relying on scum-only information".


Because I know me, I caught on because his lynch choice was unsafe and contradictory. If he had been pushing for chrono I would've suspected, but not been sure, like the rest of you.


Part of smart play is knowing when to pretend to be less then you are.

[AdumbroDeus]

Eh, yeah, basically to encapsulate, my mistake wasn't that I relied on scum-only info to arrive at the conclusion, but instead that I didn't realize it SEEMED like it was scum-only info.


After immediately recognizing you guys were gonna realize there were two scumgroups as soon as bill posted, it was a foolish reading mistake, and a mistake I know not to make next time.

[SpyreX]

Ohh and don't think I'm picking on you I think you played a solid game all the way around but, normally, when the cards are down like that a smart town beats a smart scum almost every time.

[Kise]

You could have been doomed, PD.
Red is on deck to BU-mod the next one.

[AdumbroDeus]

Nice to know somebody appreciates my play, speaking of which, I think we're gonna be meeting again.


Dram and Chrono, if you're scum in this game and I end up being scum with you, please don't jump in front of the bus again...




But I'm actually REALLY sad I wasn't town, when I came in, I could've auto-broken the game, start with a mass elemental claim, then force the most suspicious people to lynch the claimed elementals, pick possible roles based on the interaction or lack thereof, and use process of elimination to pick out scum, because we ALWAYS knew the exact number of elemental interactions in each vote. Most suspicious person gives the second vote to hammer.