Mini 1603 - Air Combat Mafia - Game Over

[T S O]

So, some fight at last?

I started going through your ISO and I realised the staggering length this post is going to be. It's not going to happen tonight, but it will tomorrow.

And, frankly, anyone who doesn't vote you after it will deserve some kind of anti-Scummy.

[Csareo]

So, some fight at last?

I started going through your ISO and I realised the staggering length this post is going to be. It's not going to happen tonight, but it will tomorrow.

And, frankly, anyone who doesn't vote you after it will deserve some kind of anti-Scummy.

I think you'll win an award for "largest false case".
I'm an MIG-23 Flogger, IE, Vannila Townie.

[Csareo]

For anyone who cares about theme...

Spoiler: McDonnell Douglas F15 Strike Eagle

The McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing) F-15E Strike Eagle is an American all-weather multirole fighter, derived from the McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle. The F-15E was designed in the 1980s for long-range, high speed interdiction without relying on escort or electronic warfare aircraft. United States Air Force (USAF) F-15E Strike Eagles can be distinguished from other U.S. Eagle variants by darker camouflage and conformal fuel tanks mounted along the engine intakes.
The Strike Eagle has been deployed for military operations in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya. During these operations the F-15E has carried out deep strikes against high-value targets, combat air patrols, and providing close air support for coalition troops. It has also seen action in later conflicts and has been exported to several countries.

Spoiler: F16 Fighting Falcon Block 52

The first Block 50/52 F-16 was delivered in late 1991; the aircraft are equipped with improved GPS/INS, and the aircraft can carry a further batch of advanced missiles: the AGM-88 HARM missile, JDAM, JSOW and WCMD.[6] Block 50 aircraft are powered by the F110-GE-129 while the Block 52 jets use the F100-PW-229.

Spoiler: F16 Fighting Falcon

The General Dynamics (now Lockheed Martin) F-16 Fighting Falcon is a single-engine multirole fighter aircraft originally developed by General Dynamics for the United States Air Force (USAF). Designed as an air superiority day fighter, it evolved into a successful all-weather multirole aircraft. Over 4,500 aircraft have been built since production was approved in 1976.[3] Although no longer being purchased by the U.S. Air Force, improved versions are still being built for export customers. In 1993, General Dynamics sold its aircraft manufacturing business to the Lockheed Corporation,[4] which in turn became part of Lockheed Martin after a 1995 merger with Martin Marietta.[5]

Spoiler: Mikoyan MiG-27 Flogger

The Mikoyan MiG-27 (Russian: Микоян МиГ-27; NATO reporting name "Flogger-D/J") is a variable-geometry ground-attack aircraft, originally built by the Mikoyan design bureau in the Soviet Union and later license-produced in India by Hindustan Aeronautics as the Bahadur ("Valiant"). It is based on the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23 fighter aircraft, but optimized for air-to-ground attack. Unlike the MiG-23, the MiG-27 did not see widespread use outside Russia, as most countries opted for the MiG-23BN and Sukhoi Su-22 instead. It currently only remains in service with the Indian, Kazakh and Sri Lankan Air Forces in the ground attack role. All Russian and Ukrainian MiG-27s have been retired.

Spoiler: Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23 Flogger

The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23 (Russian: Микоян и Гуревич МиГ-23; NATO reporting name: Flogger) is a variable-geometry fighter aircraft, designed by the Mikoyan-Gurevich design bureau in the Soviet Union. It is considered to belong to the Soviet third generation jet fighter category, along with similarly aged Soviet fighters such as the MiG-25 "Foxbat". It was the first attempt by the Soviet Union to design look-down/shoot-down radar and one of the first to be armed with beyond visual range missiles, and the first MiG production fighter aircraft to have intakes at the sides of the fuselage. Production started in 1970 and reached large numbers with over 5,000 aircraft built. Today the MiG-23 remains in limited service with various export customers.
The basic design was also used as the basis for the Mikoyan MiG-27, a dedicated ground-attack variant. Among many minor changes, the MiG-27 replaced the MiG-23's nose-mounted radar system with an optical panel holding a laser designator and a TV camera. Ground-attack variants of the MiG-23 were also produced, and these generally saw better export success, retaining more multi-mission capability.

[Csareo]

TSO, this might be taboo at this point, but what plane represents your role?

[Oman]

For anyone who cares about theme...

Spoiler: McDonnell Douglas F15 Strike Eagle

The McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing) F-15E Strike Eagle is an American all-weather multirole fighter, derived from the McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle. The F-15E was designed in the 1980s for long-range, high speed interdiction without relying on escort or electronic warfare aircraft. United States Air Force (USAF) F-15E Strike Eagles can be distinguished from other U.S. Eagle variants by darker camouflage and conformal fuel tanks mounted along the engine intakes.
The Strike Eagle has been deployed for military operations in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya. During these operations the F-15E has carried out deep strikes against high-value targets, combat air patrols, and providing close air support for coalition troops. It has also seen action in later conflicts and has been exported to several countries.

Spoiler: F16 Fighting Falcon Block 52

The first Block 50/52 F-16 was delivered in late 1991; the aircraft are equipped with improved GPS/INS, and the aircraft can carry a further batch of advanced missiles: the AGM-88 HARM missile, JDAM, JSOW and WCMD.[6] Block 50 aircraft are powered by the F110-GE-129 while the Block 52 jets use the F100-PW-229.

Spoiler: F16 Fighting Falcon

The General Dynamics (now Lockheed Martin) F-16 Fighting Falcon is a single-engine multirole fighter aircraft originally developed by General Dynamics for the United States Air Force (USAF). Designed as an air superiority day fighter, it evolved into a successful all-weather multirole aircraft. Over 4,500 aircraft have been built since production was approved in 1976.[3] Although no longer being purchased by the U.S. Air Force, improved versions are still being built for export customers. In 1993, General Dynamics sold its aircraft manufacturing business to the Lockheed Corporation,[4] which in turn became part of Lockheed Martin after a 1995 merger with Martin Marietta.[5]

Spoiler: Mikoyan MiG-27 Flogger

The Mikoyan MiG-27 (Russian: Микоян МиГ-27; NATO reporting name "Flogger-D/J") is a variable-geometry ground-attack aircraft, originally built by the Mikoyan design bureau in the Soviet Union and later license-produced in India by Hindustan Aeronautics as the Bahadur ("Valiant"). It is based on the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23 fighter aircraft, but optimized for air-to-ground attack. Unlike the MiG-23, the MiG-27 did not see widespread use outside Russia, as most countries opted for the MiG-23BN and Sukhoi Su-22 instead. It currently only remains in service with the Indian, Kazakh and Sri Lankan Air Forces in the ground attack role. All Russian and Ukrainian MiG-27s have been retired.

Spoiler: Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23 Flogger

The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23 (Russian: Микоян и Гуревич МиГ-23; NATO reporting name: Flogger) is a variable-geometry fighter aircraft, designed by the Mikoyan-Gurevich design bureau in the Soviet Union. It is considered to belong to the Soviet third generation jet fighter category, along with similarly aged Soviet fighters such as the MiG-25 "Foxbat". It was the first attempt by the Soviet Union to design look-down/shoot-down radar and one of the first to be armed with beyond visual range missiles, and the first MiG production fighter aircraft to have intakes at the sides of the fuselage. Production started in 1970 and reached large numbers with over 5,000 aircraft built. Today the MiG-23 remains in limited service with various export customers.
The basic design was also used as the basis for the Mikoyan MiG-27, a dedicated ground-attack variant. Among many minor changes, the MiG-27 replaced the MiG-23's nose-mounted radar system with an optical panel holding a laser designator and a TV camera. Ground-attack variants of the MiG-23 were also produced, and these generally saw better export success, retaining more multi-mission capability.

[T S O]

TSO, this might be taboo at this point, but what plane represents your role?

"Normal Aeroplane, Vanilla Aeroplane. My only weapons are the missiles I don't carry and life jackets."

Case coming later today.

[T S O]

yay case is like halfway done after about an hour and a half!

fucking hell if I don't get my quicklynch after this shit I hate you all.

[T S O]

The case on Csareo, part one:

Advocates softclaiming in the very first post of the game under pretence of being unaware of "site meta" regarding this.

There's no reason a Town player would ever actually advocate this. I don't care if it happened on another forum, he should and does know better. I could see how he gets the benefit of the doubt here, though, so I'll leave this one.

After getting voted by Matt directly after, he tries to play the newbie card even more than in his first post to weasel his way out of trouble.

We're 4 posts in and Csareo is already making no sense. If he's so utterly clueless about the site meta regarding Theme games, why did he randomly advocate softclaiming before asking? Also, why did he drop the idea of softclaiming so quickly after MattP attacked him for it?

Gives a really strange readslist.

This shit makes no sense at all. He lists 2 named people as null and then proceeds to also call everyone else null. What the fuck? Instead of giving Flubber an alignment, he just randomly insults him, and the rest of it is just badly done IIoA, like his comment on Anatole (does this make Anatole scum? Town? Anti-town? Who knows?)

Immediately advocates a policy lynch on Flubbernugget.
Claims that policy lynches are always advocated by scum on town.
Then again advocates a policy lynch on an inactive player when there's no reason or need.

Do I really have to explain why this makes NO FUCKING SENSE WHATSOEVER? First he wants a policy lynch on Flubber, then he hates policy lynches, then he does again on an unnamed inactive? Worse still, the only really inactive player at that juncture was SSK, yet coincidentally SSK's name isn't mentioned when the activity policy lynch comes up?

Scumreads Anatole for voting him for no reason, and votes him back.
Does not once converse with Anatole after his vote, yet now has a strong townread on him, while still voting him.
2 posts later, randomly calls Anatole annoying, despite Anatole not being discussed in the post in between.
Says Anatole doesn't quite deserve a policy lynch, and that he's not convinced on Anatole-scum.
In the very next post, suggests Anatole is a Jester.
Anatole is now town again.
Finally unvotes Anatole.

Csareo's read on Anatole goes: Scum --> Strong town --> Annoying, but probably not scum --> Jester --> Town. WHAT? The worst bit is that if you look in Anatole's ISO there is literally NOTHING HAPPENING TO JUSTIFY THESE HUGE CHANGES. He's not even able to keep his goddamn reads half-consistent, which is basically impossible to do as Town. That he keeps forgetting is a sign he's faking it all.

States that either MattP or SSK is scum, never follows it up with any pressure on SSK.

There's a whole mound of associatives that Csareo has got with SSK, this is one of the first. He literally never, ever, ever follows this up with any pressure on SSK/posts to SSK/calling SSK scum/anything at all regarding SSK.

Now being wagoned, Csareo defends himself by making three statements, none of which make any sense as Town to post.

-Policy lynches are usually scum-advocated: We've already discussed how his thoughts on policy lynches make 0 sense whatsoever and I'd rather not start banging my head off a door in frustration by going over them again, only to say this is yet another contradiction.
-Is a contradiction all you've got: He really shouldn't be okay with having made a contradiction. That he offers no defence is probably a good sign that he has no way to refute it. This is without even going through said contradiction, which I could do but won't.
-I really hate Flubber: I don't like certain people on this site either but I don't randomly nominate them for a policy lynch.

Claims he was never serious about a Flubber policy lynch.

NO. NO. THAT'S HORSESHIT. YOU WERE 100% UP FOR IT. DON'T LIE TO ME. rrrrrgh. This is bullshit, plain and simple.

Characterises his towngame as making posts that are confusing and bad, and shitty play all around.

I've already outlined my belief that he should be a lot more proud of himself - fallacy or not, I don't care, but I guess it is subjective. However, I hate the rather slimy way in which he equates poor play with a town alignment here, as it literally gives him a license to be as bad as he wants if we believe it.

Says he's suspicious of SSK's jump onto vezok, but since he also thinks vezok is scum, he can't reason both ways.

This is fair. However, as we'll get to soon, when vezok flipped town SSK should have been Csareo's #1 suspect. He wasn't. Csareo came straight after me the next day, with only a cursory vote and immediate unvote on SSK. This reeks of partners.

Votes me for, among other semantics, voting vezok with SSK, despite Csareo having done the exact. same. thing. as detailed above in this post.

Firstly, I find it very hard to believe that Csareo could accuse me of being scum for voting vezok alongside SSK when he not only did the same but actively made a post detailing the struggle he had doing it. It doesn't add up.

Secondly, if Csareo was scum, he knew SSK had been targeted by a night action. His only real option would be to either bus SSK or come out swinging to protect him. I think he was caught in two minds and originally decided to bus SSK, voted, immediately regretted it, and unvoted and voted me with a half-assed case in order to get away from SSK.

[T S O]

That's basically everything up to the start of day 3 and a little beyond. Day 3 all by itself will merit another post which will probably be even longer than this.

I would have posted them together, but I was getting paranoid of somehow losing all my progress, and it's easier for me to make a new post instead of having to scroll through constantly.

[farside22]

I'm giving that post over to myko.
I started reading and after second paragraph ADD kicked in and I was like ooooo pretty flowers.
Not completely serious, more like this is hard someone do short post explaination please

[mykonian]

Thinking while reading the first half of the case, stuff that's interesting:

IDK about the policy lynch stuff. Townies could do that. I do agree that the reads list is not what it could have been there. The anatole series I hadn't noticed as such, but you are right there.

"There's a whole mound of associatives that Csareo has got with SSK, this is one of the first. He literally never, ever, ever follows this up with any pressure on SSK/posts to SSK/calling SSK scum/anything at all regarding SSK."

I'd have to look up, that would be damning imo.

And I mean, it's hard to keep anatole out of this with the vote unvote thing, though the situation is different. I do agree with your assessment that it's possibly a way to get out of the position he got himself in yesterday. "Oh, I still believe SSK is scum... but look at this guy now!". In that way, a hard line after that on you is explainable... but more difficult. Like, he shouldn't particulary mind SSK being lynched, it being one of his scumreads. The points he makes seem good, but in the light of the previous day it makes less sense that he's the one making them.

The last bit should be good.

[mykonian]

but if I keep in mind the read I had on csareo before that, do you think he's the person to go for ballsy scumplay, or is he merely an impulsive townie? The mistakes he makes, but the initiative he took suggested the last to me, and that's the background from where I didn't want to lynch csareo, given that there was a calculating player with few big moves who did seem to have a connection with SSK in the game: anatole. I'll have to look up the "SSK and X" thing for csareo, that happens too often unpunished, imo.

[mykonian]

ctrl-f through csareo's post pre-ssk flip is more about him worrying that he's grouped up with SSK than him grouping ssk with other players and then picking the other players to put pressure on. It only happens with vezok and mattp, really. I mean, it counts, but it's not happening super often.

Meh. I guess it does stand out a little. Saying "either ssk or mattp is scum" then not continuing on that track is a valve to release some pressure about mentioning SSK. This way you have acknowledged that your buddy is scummy, but you aren't required to do more with it.

[farside22]

I'll be frank. I find it difficult to want to vote someone when the person I'm scum reading like crazy is voting said player and I do not see it as scum bussing.

[xRECKONERx]

Who are you "scum reading like crazy"?

[T S O]

Reck, it's you.

[xRECKONERx]

So you no longer think I'm scum?

Not sold your town, but your counter argument was valid in my view.
The few things still bug me is the vote on vezo and it seems you don't interact with Ana, but that one day and then it's like you two avoid each other.....almost.

"not sold" that I'm town but giving my counter argument validity doesn't seem to line up with "scum reading like crazy"

can we not fucking lynch her

[T S O]

how bout big c

[T S O]

that case is coming but it's so long my motivation to do it is dead blegh

[T S O]

The case on Csareo, part 2:

Again, more hypocrisy, as he repeatedly manages to justify calling me scum for doing exactly what he himself has done. *sigh*
Justifies his SSK vote by saying it was done "with little reasoning, as SSK was just a minor scumread." This is conflicting with his apparent quandary in voting vezok with SSK, which seems to completely conflict with everything he did afterwards.

I'm just going to put every piece of fishing Csareo did in chronological order instead of having to type the same shit for every single one:

TSO, what was your night action history? What's your PR?
TSO hasn't even told us what his PR is. Scum 101.
I'm sure there's no resistance in TSO full claiming. With results.
I'm definitely not a fan of TSO not claiming.
Appeal to emotion? Just claim.
Can you give me one good reason why TSO shouldn't claim?
Why the hell would a townie claim a PR, and refuse to elaborate, full knowing that he'll be NK'd when his conf read is lynched?
Look, I'm not going to go into detail, but there are other reasons I'm suspicious of TSO's soft claim. (this is never ever talked about, coincidentally!)
Are you saying he's a role cop?
Are you, or are you not, a role cop?
I still want you to full claim. There is no reason not to at this point.
I know there is at least one investigative role - please look at TSO tonight.

The way that he relentlessly pursues full disclosure is really, really awful. It's not like he's calling me town but asking me to claim - he's actively discrediting me and discrediting my claim while simultaneously asking me -to- claim so he can get the information. I'm not going to start quoting myself here but me, Matt and Reck were arguing against him for a long time and for the penny to not drop if he was town is, to me, borderline unfathomable.

Csareo discrediting my claim:

Why would TSO claim now he knows MafiaSSK is confirmed scum?
Sounds like he's trying to justify a wagon without actually risking being CC'd.
Results? How much would you wager on "town, town, scum"? (This is one of the more damning ones, given that scum-Csareo would know that SSK was sent to kill and was stopped - therefore, the results would match up perfectly from his point of view.)
Evidence for TSO-scum - his unusual way of claiming, buddying, leading a town lynch, etc.
He soft claims investigative power role, but refuses to spill it out. Bullshit. Why are we wagoning MafiaSSK, while ignoring the elephant in the roof?
If you're town, and not voting TSO, you're an idiot. You just are. Never has a more evident scum slip been seen in my two years of playing, and I am hit with a stonewall of ignorance. (Particularly relevant due to this amusing little gem, in which Csareo mocks people who thinks they have found scumslips. Irony, thy name is Csareo.]
Why the hell would a townie claim a PR, and refuse to elaborate, full knowing that he'll be NK'd when his conf read is lynched?
TSO fucked up and you're covering his ass now, MattP.
TSO, I think you are scum who made an amateur move, and MattP is covering your ass. That is all there is to say.

I made a post detailing why it was 100% counterproductive for TSO-scum to No Kill n2 and fake a gambit. Csareo's rebuttals to this include, among others, sometimes it's better to leave everyone alive, why didn't another Goon kill? (WHICH DOESN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE BUT ANYWAY), After forcing me to claim, says "Let's say you are a jailkeeper. You locking MafiaSSK doesn't confirm him as scum, does it? (which is so nonsensically bad I can feel my IQ dropping) and Mafia don't always make the right play! which, while still being stupid, isn't as fantastically dense as the others.

This level of hostility is unnatural, ESPECIALLY given the flak he was coming under for even doubting me. His iron confidence is really weird and doesn't match up with, for example, the insecurity in him saying earlier in the game he was struggling to find scumreads. His demeanour completely changes from d2 to d3 and I'm convinced that's due to his team's kill not going through.

The post I made about the No Kill + claim being 100% anti-scumTSO was rock solid and Csareo must have done everything in his power to not believe it because the rebuttals he came up with were fantastic and varied, being completely fringe theories. I don't believe that logic is that hard to grasp - and simple logic was all it was, no assumptions were required.

Interactions with and about SSK during d3:

I've gone through the hasty vote-and-unvote, let's not rehash ourselves for no real reason. Moving on...

Why would TSO claim now he knows MafiaSSK is confirmed scum? This, firstly, makes no sense - why wouldn't I claim? But a lot more interestingly, he calls SSK confscum in this post - let's see if that changes! (Hint: yes.)

Bullshit. Why are we wagoning MafiaSSK, while ignoring the elephant in the roof? For hell's sake, MafiaSSK lurks in every game he's ever played in. Read his wiki page. It didn't take long for that to change! Csareo goes for the only possible playstyle of MafiaSSK there is - "he's a chronic lurker!". Needless to say, he was wrong.

And I'm not buying that there is a connection between me and MafiaSSK. Apparently pushing a different wagon makes me his scumbuddy?

This is a slip.

From town-Csareo's point of view at this moment, I am scum and MafiaSSK is an easy town mislynch. Why, then, is he concerned about being linked with him? He shouldn't be, unless

he knows SSK is scum.

After getting his claim and being shouted at by everyone else, he says he was always open to an SSK lynch. That's horseshit of the highest nature, he did everything in his power -not- to touch SSK and get me lynched on d3.

Votes SSK in the very next post for arbitrary reasons. That post reeks of a noobscum bus, and it's a horrible vote anyway. Nothing really changed bar my claim to make him doubt his opinion of SSK-town. He knew what was coming.

He opened the day with a "scumread" on SSK, I declared a Guilty on SSK, he started asking me to claim, he somehow began to actually believe in SSK more with a Guilty, he continually backed SSK, he forced my claim, then he made a shit jump onto SSK with mediocre reasoning. That's a brief and accurate summary of Csareo-SSK interactions d3. Think they're scum-scum? You're not the only one.

Other stuff:

Randomly misspells myko's name so badly it looks completely intentional.
Robotically uses the buzzword "justification" about 6 times in 7 posts here, here, here, here, and here before he votes Anatole for ...voting him and not giving a reason. In other words, a blatant OMGUS. *shoots self in head*
Reasons for scumreads are: poor reads list, vote switching, and voting policy lynch targets. Does this remind you of anyone?
I have "reasons" to doubt this claim. These reasons haven't came to light yet, Csareo, so I'm sure we'd all love to hear them.

Stuff that amused me:

Refers to MattP as a "rabid jackass"
"I scum read you. That does not mean any of you are scum."

[T S O]

Farside, if you couldn't read the first one, that one's highly doubtful - but that will not justify you from not joining the Csareo wagon.

Making those painstakingly long cases has me convinced that Csareo is scum. If he is town, he has been blindingly, mindbogglingly bad here - so much so that I will not regret doing this if he flips Town. His play here deserves a lynch. End of story.

I hate you all for making me do that fucking case.

[T S O]

Csareo then went onto to denounce the whole "get TSO to claim" camp, with myko and Anatole, and proceeded to vote Anatole - that, as you may have guessed, does not sit well with me either.

[farside22]

Who are you "scum reading like crazy"?

Anatole.

[T S O]

If that case I made is just ignored then I will shoot myself in the nuts.

I am basically conftown and I'm putting my fucking foot down - I want Csareo dead. Today.

[mykonian]

pffft. I mean, I didn't like the way you claimed, it looked ugly, but I guess his angles (1596 and 1602) do get absurd there. The key is indeed how hard he goes when he hadn't put much attention at you beforehand. Obviously the vote, I knew that was going to be part of your case. That was one issue I already had. Otherwise, meh. Not that interesting, sorry

I mean, I see where you are coming from. I think you could be right. There are a couple of points in there (though not all links) that are decidedly more scum motivated than town motivated. What did you think about post 1911?