Mini 1624: Joss Whedon Mafia: The Musical (Game Over)

[Egg]

How would people feel about a massclaim?

No.

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

I don't want another chef mafia where she's scum and everyone else agrees she's scum and I sit there defending her like an idiot and eat a mislynch for it, as well as a blow to my arms race pride.

A few points you might like to think about:
1) You lost the arms race if you can't read her by end of day 2 when she's had significant lynch pressure. You can't sit there with a straight face and tell me you have the ability to read someone when they are in the process of getting lynched and the best you can give as far as an opinion goes is throwing your arms up and telling me you're just gonna trust me so I'm the one with his pants left down if I'm wrong.

2) You don't get mislynched when you have a bad read on someone when you play well? I'm personally more liable to mislynch you when you don't do shit when you should be and I'm pretty sure a majority of mafia players agree with me. I have a lot of trouble believing you're more willing to passively stand by while ffery dies than you are willing to attempt a read and be wrong.

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

Eyesott is town (for now) for claim.

Lovebed is town for holy fuck being town. (Btw you guys are lucky I didn't discuss this game at Mellow Yellow like I was planning to because holy fuckballs if you'd still replaced in there would have been red snow in Hyde Park)

+ Serra are your only townreads? Why was the eyesott claim so town for you?

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

VOTE: Yonce

Sorry. I hope to be caught up by D3 at the latest. My apologies for being dead weight today.

I'm surprised no one commented on this because this vote sucks! I hate how she has no investment in the lynch, only that she gets a lynch, and, along the same veins, how ready she is to try harder tomorrow despite the complete lack of any presence today.

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

Like did you miss the section in my little reads list where I said I'd take nacho's money back guarantee for now? Apparently you must have

That + intent to vote egg doesn't mean you wouldn't vote ffery on a deadline compromise.

@ Nacho, you've addressed Regfan's push on Ffery to the point of making a long wall to him. Why haven't you addressed my concerns there?

Spoiler: here's why i never addressed your concerns, many apologies

Some things that make me think it is a Murder-Yonce partnership is Murder's Post 649 where they say "If you guys do wind up lynching us, then I think you should take a really good look at this vote on day 2." in response to Yonce's vote on them whereas they previously had a townread on Riddleton's slot in Post 561. I agree that Yonce's vote was scummy but Murder's overall stance felt like forced distancing. Yonce's unexplained vote also makes a ton of sense as a bus vote since scum often vote their partners without explanations and overt certainty whereas they would be more inclined to provide reasons when voting townies so they don't look bad upon the flip. This again doesn't match with their Riddleton/Yonce townread in Post 692 where they act like Yonce's vote never happened in the first place and there is no mention at all about it.

I wouldn't expect ffery to tear down an entire townread on a player because they voted her. It does make sense for her to have something like that as an in the moment feeling: it makes a hell of a lot more sense as an in the moment feeling as it does to be anything that's even sort of scum motivated, although you seem to be less focused on that and more focused on it not making sense.

As far as the no-lynch on D1, the people that suspected Murder were Serra, Anatole, Goblin, Yonce, Egg, and Medea. Yonce and Goblin were the only ones who were steadfast with their Murder vote although Yonce was never there during deadline so it is a null tell. Anatole and Serra are town. Will probably delve into more detail on the others on a Murder scumflip. Ffery-case will come later tonight probably. Also, further analysis of the Day one no lynch.

When you are a strong town player, people are afraid to lynch you, and while they feel okay expressing suspicion in an attempt to get you to step up your game, they are not confident enough to place the vote and take the plunge. The only reason I survive as long as I do in half of my scumgames is because of reputation and trust built up that says "if Nacho is town, I'm going to feel dumb as shit".

I expect town-you to be plenty condescending and talk about how I'm a poor scumhunter. I don't expect town-you to expect me to read you correctly.

You're a good scumhunter. Ffery isn't a hard read. You got it wrong in the past? You're a meta-based player. You're supposed to learn the more you play with someone, no?

I still have concerns about the way you reacted to the wagon on D1. It felt like you posting a ton of analysis so as to look productive and pro-town but the analysis was so bare and not in-depth that I can't follow any of it and I feel that you tend toward minimalism as scum if you feel that you are caught.

What are you referring to re: tons of analysis? Are you referring to AP's big wall near the end of Day 1? If so, see below:

They set themselves up to vote just about any of their scumreads with understandable maybe compromise votes on Boonskies and Goblin: if they set themselves up to vote anyone else, link me to that because I think I'd probably care a lot more about that. I find the Antihero suspicion understandable because Antihero hasn't been playing at all to the level he should be playing at: he's been lazy as shit and overall pretty fucking underwhelming. Now, Mara has a strong sense of him being town based on her feeling to understand why he's been underwhelming and still feeling passion in certain points of play (which is undeniably there), but I understand the Antihero push because I feel the same way. Boonskies wasn't obvtown before his claiming shenanigans. Boonskies wasn't town at all before his claiming shenanigans. This additionally makes sense. LMP suspicion was a pretty strong suspect of AP that died a little bit with the replacement. It makes sense that the slot wouldn't climb out of scumreads so easily. I don't blame AP for Bassists suspicion at all, I didn't think they looked that town.

The PoE process that happened wasn't fully hashed out, but it felt like a vote thrown down on someone who seemed like they had a pretty good chance of being scum/good starting point, which seems to be the type of votes you don't understand because you don't make them. As far as scumreads go, you have two scumreads who had gotten significantly weaker from early days (Antihero/LMP), a scumread that you know you're a little biased making and am generally having trouble sorting through, a meh read you have a feeling is probably town, and Egg read which is a good mix of not doing anything but still posting often enough to pretend to be making some sort of impact on the game.

If not, what exactly were you referring to?

Why did you immediately ask me if why I was enquiring about you and Cabd when I replaced into the game? It read as an extremely defensive response to a simple question.

It seemed a simple question to me!

Everything. But I'm not sure how to explain it beyond the fact that the way she interacted with me felt manipulative. I'm still trying to sort Ffery out and if I still think she's scum after that, I'll make a wall case about it so give me some time.

If there's a way I can address "it feels manipulative", please let me know.

Nacho seems to be supporting you.

Why didn't you engage me on this read?
Do you not think I can read ffery?

...and, that's your case on ffery up to the post I was responding to. Was addressing those concerns really so urgent that you completely refused to even acknowledge the existence of my ffery-town case completely? Why didn't the revelation that I was townreading her as hard as I was affect you in anyway?

Just saying I don't get why Yonce makes sense.

Vote Yonce

Will unvote if we get extension.

I don't actually understand why you voted Yonce here, or why you asked why we were wagoning Yonce. This post suggests you haven't been reading (didn't know we had been awarded an extension), but saying you don't understand why Yonce is being pushed makes it seem like you've read but failed to understand the cases on her.

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

1) It wasn't him "claiming scum" it was him over-using the "we drew town" "we're town" in his first post, it's forced and AP's attempt to meta clear himself from it was really really disingenuous.

I don't think the "we're town" thing is scummy at all. I don't think AP-scum makes a serious or even half-serious attempt to clear himself based on the first post he's made in game, thus don't see scum motivation in it. We probably aren't going to get anywhere on this point.4

2) I don't expect people to be completely robotic but I expect someone to attempt to be more manipulative and conniving as mafia since y'know that's mafias goal and the sheer extent that she used that reaction has a significant amount of scum motivation; while you say "this is her town meta", I have a different opinion on her town meta re; reactions, I've seen her react more aggressively and less manipulatively either way her play here makes so much sense as scum it's not funny.

Different angle: why was her reaction to serrapaladin "manipulative"?

3) No offence but this section of yours is a whole lot of rambly nonsense, what I'm saying re; her treatment of Cabd is that comes across that she wanted to dissuade him from lynching her playing up the "you're going to be in a bad position since I won't be town reading you" which like 2) is manipulative and scum motivated.

She's saying she's not townreading Cabd because he's not doing shit. She didn't say he was going to be in a bad position: those are words you put in her mouth for absolutely no reason. She also didn't say or imply anything bad was going to happen to him, just that she wasn't townreading. And considering he'd been useless as hell up to that point, I wouldn't be townreading him either.

4) You're missing my point here, their play at the end of D1 doesn't have any real worry about a no lynch going through, instead they're playing up them being lynched even when it's beyond obvious that it wouldn't have gone through; it reads fake as fuck.

There's no scum motivation to play up "oh I'm getting lynched!" when you're not getting lynched. There would be much more scum motivation in playing up assuring a lynch happens because stopping no lynches is protown. It is not Murder's fault that a no lynch happened. There was no way they could have prevented it. Thus, it is not scummy that they didn't explicitly try harder.

5) It's very obvious by Riddeltons meta bring up of Antole 'faking knowledge' in the past that Riddletons argument wasn't entirely flawed and that would have been a case that Riddleton would have had access to regardless of his alignment and therefore would push regardless of alignment ie. her attempting to state a town read on him based on it is completely nonsensical; scum do have to push people, scum do have to make up arguments even if they're not true, scum do have to push things that they know aren't the case, them doing so isn't a town-tell.

Passionate pushes, especially when completely wrong, are hard for scum to fake. That is the point ffery was making, and that is the point I can see. I don't think it is an invalid reason to townread someone.

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

the sheer amount of times I've heard that from people in the last year or so and it have been them wrong with their meta read has been something that has made me rely on and use meta a significant amount less which is fairly noticeable, it's mostly just useful to get an idea of a players experience level and a few pointers here and there

This site is too big to use meta correctly. That does not mean it's impossible to use meta correctly. A significant amount of meta defense comes from my side because you aren't looking into ffery's scum motivations versus town motivations at all: how many times did you use the same "motivation" in your big case wall versus "feels fake as fuck?". Meta is good when you are intimately familiar with a player. Meta is good when you understand what is fake and what is not. I am telling you that my experience with ffery puts me in a better position to read her because I understand her tendencies far better than you do: if you want to dance the motivation dance I'm happy to be your partner but you have to understand your case didn't address motivations at all (except maybe in the Yonce/Ffery both voting eyesott around the same time).

[yoncé]

I know my play hasn't been the towniest, but that's just due to my activity (which I will say again shouldn't just give eyestott and Mikuru who I even forgot about earlier free passes, and I'm a bit upset because that seems unfair) and people associating me as scum with Crows, which is... lol? People can say they don't care about my claim all they want, but I still don't see how what Riddleton and I both did can be indicative of any role other than a town BP.

As for Regfan... I still don't get why me being BP would clash with him being a backup. It's pretty simple, there's no contradiction someone could naturally drive from that and it feels fabricated.

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

makes a lot of sense coming from them as the scum-team worried that the lynch would possibly get locked between the two of them and wanted to avoid bussing,

How do you see this occuring in the scum QT? Why the hell would they feel comfortable voting the counterwagon to a scumlynch at the same time, especially after you and Falcon already brought up the strong belief of them being a team?

I'm a Town 1 Shot Bulletproof.

Thanks for forcing me to claim. It was hard enough trying to fake "thinks she's being more subtle than she is with softclaims" trying to bait a nightkill for being a different PR. But I guess seeing as I'm a compromise lynch now (over eyestott and Egg, really? I mean I recognize Regfan is a townread to some but Egg's hop was horrible and I don't get what's suddenly so good about eyes) I'm never probably going to be able to draw a NK anyway.

Also, my Role PM makes it clear that there are ways to die other than being shot [that my vest won't save me from]. It was like angel means you can be immune from normal weapons so basically bulletproof but not unkillable. I was hesitant to suggest it earlier because I think it could throw things off-course but I think that means arsonist, especially in Buffyland.

The thing I liked about the claim was the arsonist explanation.
The thing I didn't like about the claim was the claim.

1) I don't have an issue with AP claiming scum either. My problem is him trying to leverage it as a towntell when he later claims that his post would not come from scum. It actually reminded me of how he entered Tales when he posted an opening and insisted that the opening made him town.

It was my impression the Tales claim was an obvious troll. What gives you a different impression?

She shouldn't expect a similar level of push.

Problem being that Antihero pushes just didn't have any level of oomph to them whatsoever, still don't.
I actually find myself getting paranoid of him again (but don't tell Mara so hopefully she skims my posts?) since I can't remember a post from him in forever and a half and generally that's a sign of Antihero-scum and Antihero-scum alone.

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

but that's just due to my activity

There's a very simple solution to this, you know.

[yoncé]

The thing I didn't like about the claim was the claim.

Can you please just explain this to me? Maybe it's just me but isn't trying to pretend to be a powerful and/or lynchproof PR the best course of action as BP? And Riddleton's play should further confirm my role but in a different way, it looked like he was trying to make waves and be a big voice in the town and that's pretty much the other main way to play BP. :/

[yoncé]

but that's just due to my activity

There's a very simple solution to this, you know.

Disregard my education, work, and real life relationships?

Or replace out when I'm already mostly up to date, and replacing out when there's a major wagon on me? I'm not a dick. Should I have replaced out earlier after making the fake crumbs that I did, leaving nobody knowing what I was doing? Probably not either.

Even if I was VT I wouldn't have replaced out because unless life pressures become so much that I have to leave the site entirely for a while (as in my first game) I'll stay because I feel like I owe it to the mod (as in my previous game which was a similar situation and I got lynched).

It's not as simple as you want to think it is.

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

It's not as simple as you want to think it is.

Why is it that the only thing your time is used for is defending yourself?
Stop interacting with me: flesh out some of your scumreads and your townreads.

[yoncé]

makes a lot of sense coming from them as the scum-team worried that the lynch would possibly get locked between the two of them and wanted to avoid bussing,

How do you see this occuring in the scum QT? Why the hell would they feel comfortable voting the counterwagon to a scumlynch at the same time, especially after you and Falcon already brought up the strong belief of them being a team?

I'm a Town 1 Shot Bulletproof.

Thanks for forcing me to claim. It was hard enough trying to fake "thinks she's being more subtle than she is with softclaims" trying to bait a nightkill for being a different PR. But I guess seeing as I'm a compromise lynch now (over eyestott and Egg, really? I mean I recognize Regfan is a townread to some but Egg's hop was horrible and I don't get what's suddenly so good about eyes) I'm never probably going to be able to draw a NK anyway.

Also, my Role PM makes it clear that there are ways to die other than being shot [that my vest won't save me from]. It was like angel means you can be immune from normal weapons so basically bulletproof but not unkillable. I was hesitant to suggest it earlier because I think it could throw things off-course but I think that means arsonist, especially in Buffyland.

The thing I liked about the claim was the arsonist explanation.
The thing I didn't like about the claim was the claim.

1) I don't have an issue with AP claiming scum either. My problem is him trying to leverage it as a towntell when he later claims that his post would not come from scum. It actually reminded me of how he entered Tales when he posted an opening and insisted that the opening made him town.

It was my impression the Tales claim was an obvious troll. What gives you a different impression?

She shouldn't expect a similar level of push.

Problem being that Antihero pushes just didn't have any level of oomph to them whatsoever, still don't.
I actually find myself getting paranoid of him again (but don't tell Mara so hopefully she skims my posts?) since I can't remember a post from him in forever and a half and generally that's a sign of Antihero-scum and Antihero-scum alone.

My one strong read apart from my townreads on you and Antihero (which I've explained) is my Regfan scumread, which recently has developed itself even further based on his attacks on me- not because they're just incorrect, but because I don't believe things like

Still think both Yonces and MoC's vote on Eye were skeevy as fuck, especially the timing of it; makes a lot of sense coming from them as the scum-team worried that the lynch would possibly get locked between the two of them and wanted to avoid bussing

are legitimate thoughts that he's having. It looks like scum bullshitting more reasons to vote someone you're already said is a scumread. And I've already said all this.

I also think that you need to take a step back and check your privilege, so to speak. I'm the biggest wagon right now in serious danger of being mislynched, and to add on to that I'm a power role that can otherwise potentially survive the whole game (unless Bulba wasn't just throwing a red herring with the other methods of death thing). You're a hydra who can spam your way out of anything and get towncred for it, and people know you too so that helps. With all I have to deal with all I usually have time for in my day is trying to respond to all the dumb accusations and attacks and defend myself, while you're there and you actually have the breathing space to conduct your own investigations and ask questions.

I know my activity is a part of why I'm in this situation. All the other attacks though are bullshit- do you expect me to not feel extremely irritated by them? Do you expect me to just ignore them? You shouldn't. And while devoting all of my time to defending myself against all the shit probably isn't the best course of action, it's just what naturally is going to happen because if I don't there's no point, I'm going to get lynched and everyone is going to ignore my reads post-death anyway.

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

I also think that you need to take a step back and check your privilege, so to speak. I'm the biggest wagon right now in serious danger of being mislynched, and to add on to that I'm a power role that can otherwise potentially survive the whole game (unless Bulba wasn't just throwing a red herring with the other methods of death thing). You're a hydra who can spam your way out of anything and get towncred for it, and people know you too so that helps. With all I have to deal with all I usually have time for in my day is trying to respond to all the dumb accusations and attacks and defend myself, while you're there and you actually have the breathing space to conduct your own investigations and ask questions.

I think you're exaggerating a bit if you're claiming that the only reason you haven't more noticeable signs of scumhunting in thread is because everyone's been breathing down your neck all the time. If you really do feel this is the case, then I'll spend the time looking back on your pushes/suspicions but there certainly has been time to evolve cases past a naked vote and a comment.

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

I'll be over in my corner, awaiting another lecture from Nacho.

There are many things I want to air right now, but I think they are better saved for a post-game private chat.

For now: early lynches generally set the tone for the rest of the game in the absence of major shakeups. Do you think no lynch + you getting mislynched is a good start that gives plenty of room for a town win?

[fferyllt]

I'll be over in my corner, awaiting another lecture from Nacho.

There are many things I want to air right now, but I think they are better saved for a post-game private chat.

For now: early lynches generally set the tone for the rest of the game in the absence of major shakeups. Do you think no lynch + you getting mislynched is a good start that gives plenty of room for a town win?

No I don't think it's at all a good start. And I bear very significant responsibility for being in this situation. There's only so much you can lay at the door of an apathetic, disconnected day 1 town. What I'm anticipating happening later in the game is worse.

The question is whether my expectations are realistic.

The new blood in this game should have made things awesome for town, given how many of them replaced into slots I read as town. And that's where I think my responsibility factors in. I've been a huge distraction. If I can't shift some opinions, and so far I haven't made so much as a dent, it's not a case of if, but of when.

[Murder of Crows]

I'll be over in my corner, awaiting another lecture from Nacho.

There are many things I want to air right now, but I think they are better saved for a post-game private chat.

For now: early lynches generally set the tone for the rest of the game in the absence of major shakeups. Do you think no lynch + you getting mislynched is a good start that gives plenty of room for a town win?

No I don't think it's at all a good start. And I bear very significant responsibility for being in this situation. There's only so much you can lay at the door of an apathetic, disconnected day 1 town. What I'm anticipating happening later in the game is worse.

The question is whether my expectations are realistic.

The new blood in this game should have made things awesome for town, given how many of them replaced into slots I read as town. And that's where I think my responsibility factors in. I've been a huge distraction. If I can't shift some opinions, and so far I haven't made so much as a dent, it's not a case of if, but of when.

mine

[Murder of Crows]

I also think that you need to take a step back and check your privilege, so to speak. I'm the biggest wagon right now in serious danger of being mislynched, and to add on to that I'm a power role that can otherwise potentially survive the whole game (unless Bulba wasn't just throwing a red herring with the other methods of death thing). You're a hydra who can spam your way out of anything and get towncred for it, and people know you too so that helps. With all I have to deal with all I usually have time for in my day is trying to respond to all the dumb accusations and attacks and defend myself, while you're there and you actually have the breathing space to conduct your own investigations and ask questions.

Take responsibility for your play.

[Murder of Crows]

I'm thinking about voting either Mikuru or Medea.

[Murder of Crows]

I think Yonce's crumbing (and the fact that it's been early and often) lines up with her claim.

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

1. You're not that good at reading people. No one is. Except maybe Glork.
2. But it literally

does not matter

.

1: who is your strongest townread?
2: I never said it did, i forgot to mention in that post that I'm a VT.

1. Our slot? ffery.* Myself? Regfan.
2. cool
*so that point about not valuing your reads too highly? Nacho's ffery read is an exception.

It's about the volume, not the content. If you were more concise, I'd be able to grasp what you are actually saying a lot better. I also wouldn't be 20 pages behind.

This just comes down to personal preference I guess. IMO walls suck and kill activity much more than several short posts.

Nachohydrapeeps, I think what you guys need to understand is that you're now almost nearing 400 posts, that's a lot of posts over a short period and it's making it really fucking hard to keep up with the game which in turn means when I do get caught up and so do others we have less time and energy to make a real post with reads and thoughts, just hone it in a bit (All of you, not talking to specific people) for the sake of the game.

Again, they're usually short posts. *shrug*

I didn't play anyone like anything, just voted in case my prior one didn't count, thought I made that fairly obvious?

Sorry I just got really excited.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I am much less sure on Ffery with Post 1643. The read on me felt genuine especially the "

it's one of those cold comfort situations where I feel that if he's town then he'll come away from this game with a better grasp of the way my town play comes undone and disintegrates under stress

" which combined with the earlier "

you believe I'm lynch-vulnerable. I am. And I hope to hell that my flip burns you and your team hard.

" makes me wonder if I'm wrong. The hope that I'll take something away from it actually felt genuine and not criticizing me in some way for not reading her as town.

UNVOTE:

I still dislike their interactions with Yonce but I am leaning towards flipping Yonce first. I'm caught up to ffery's readslist. Skimmed posts after it but haven't read in detail. I need to head out for a bit and I'll be here tonight as I finally have a bunch of free time.

[Bulbazak]

Prodding Boonskiies.

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

A day and a half.