Mini 1597: Runecast Mafia - Day 5

[Thor665]

@Ktx - what if I had been scum and there had been no redirector? I agree with d3x, you played that poorly. As a claimed Hider you *have* to stick to your claimed targets - as otherwise it can lead to mislynches.
I will admit that the setup was built to screw your role over and hand scum a mislynch, but...even without that you could have done the same if I was scum. The only way your action was remotely justified was if you were pretty darn certain I was town...and at that point you shouldn't be hiding behind me anyway.

@Lynx - for the record, I'm not even as angry as d3x appears to be. But if town is confused by your claim (as I blatantly was) it is on you and only you to keep explaining it till they understand. I would point out that Konowa also clearly was in the same boat as me or he wouldn't have voted the way he did - so that's at least two of us (also known as 'every living town player') you didn't reach and Konowa, unlike me, wasn't even advertising that he didn't understand your role. That is why it is so painfully on you to claim, claim clearly, and keep claiming until all is understood, because it can mess up your team if you are misunderstood. There is a reason I kept repeating my understanding of your role and also how I as using it to clear Ansuz.

@ffrey - I still don't think the NAR thing is that bad, though I am not that pleased with the flips and some other mechanics. It was on town to figure out the NAR thing or ask, I don't think NAR is required for themes. I would note that I figured out a lot of your tricks just fine, and did it by analysis. So I think that's okay. I do think your role names were flat out bad - if someoen is strong willed only on certain nights - that should be reflected in their role name instead of how it was reflected. The same thing with the Inventor/Bodyguard thing - I really shouldn't, as town, have to be asking 'what even is this role' when the roles are, at the end of the day, conventional. I also think that if you design a game like this, that you should expect role and setup spec to matter more - if you don't want that then include less PRs. When there is so much role interaction then town will examine the role interaction for info - that's the way the game works. It's like in that all cop setup, there's a reason scumhunting is secondary - same thing here. I'll also admit I was not a fan of you making an anti-town role like Konowa's whose pro-town play started to be 'don't post much' in lylo. That was kind of a kick to the junk for town in my opinion.

[Thor665]

My god there is some confusion being thrown around in this game
Feels like getting a vanilla town killed day 1 was a fluke and nearly everyone else has a role of some sort
Mod describing me as strong willed when I was only that from night three onwards looks like it has confused people a lot and enabled people to cast assertions on me.

^^^
This

That should have been a 1-shot Vig/N3+ Strong Willed flip.

[Thor665]

@ffrey - though, I dunno, maybe with a Hider you should have been clear. Because you did set up a game where correct Hider play was anti-town.

[Desperado]

I think full redirectors just shouldn't exist. That shit is broken

[Desperado]

And we definitely shouldn't have been able to redirect a hider

[Thor665]

A redirector is unquestionably of immense power, especially considering the way this town was built. I agree a Hider redirect is pretty 'ehh....' and that it probably pushed the role into broken - without the town being as accurate in lynching as it was we would have been steamrolled even worse due to that.

[Untrod Tripod]

A redirector is unquestionably of immense power, especially considering the way this town was built. I agree a Hider redirect is pretty 'ehh....' and that it probably pushed the role into broken - without the town being as accurate in lynching as it was we would have been steamrolled even worse due to that.

the hider redirect is wrong.

it effectively gives the scum 3 kills in a row and punishes the entire town for playing correctly.

[Thor665]

I don't use the term 'broken' lightly, and I did use it there.

[Desperado]

Like once everyone had claimed nacho and i were basically playing God

[Untrod Tripod]

I don't use the term 'broken' lightly, and I did use it there.

fair, but I think it's worth noting that a redirected hider, even though I said it gives the scum three kills in row, actually gives them FOUR

holy fuck dude

[Kthxbye]

It's like High School Math. You only get 1/2 credit for the right answer if your work is wrong. If your gambit had worked, it would still be the wrong play, even if we'd have won.

complete and utter dis-agreeance, period.

[Kthxbye]

If I was completely inept at playing MS, they sure, you and Thor would have a point and I'm nothing more than a role.

Thing is, I'm more than a role as in a human that can read people through their posting.

I was right and I'd argue that 90% of the time I'd be right (because I know my ability to read people). If I was wrong, sure, it'd be the "wrong play", but taking the chance (imo) is the better play so I played it correctly.

[Untrod Tripod]

eh, you tried to make the cute play instead of the good play

it would have worked out, but still it has lower EV

[Desperado]

The bottom line is that you didn't hide behind who you said you would hide,behind. That's bad play.

[Thor665]

If I was completely inept at playing MS, they sure, you and Thor would have a point and I'm nothing more than a role.

Thing is, I'm more than a role as in a human that can read people through their posting.

I was right and I'd argue that 90% of the time I'd be right (because I know my ability to read people). If I was wrong, sure, it'd be the "wrong play", but taking the chance (imo) is the better play so I played it correctly.

My point is, the only way your play was "right" was if I was town.
If I was town enough for you to take that action due to your read of me then you shouldn't have been bothering to hide behind me in the first place.
That makes your play wrong.

I don't think that's a defensible argument from your point.
Please note this came from someone who chose to argue that you *wouldn't* be a bad enough player to do that. I am frustrated that I was wrong and, kind of like Lynx, worried that you're arguing that what you did was a-ok. It really wasn't, dude.

[d3x]

No one is saying that you're completely inept at Mafia, stop being dramatic. I believe you are a very good player, but good players can make bad plays and bro, you made one. There are good ways to play a Role and there are bad ways to play a Role. Lynching a Cop to find out if he's telling the truth about his Investigations is a bad play, but that doesn't mean that you don't get good information from it.

[Thor665]

fair, but I think it's worth noting that a redirected hider, even though I said it gives the scum three kills in row, actually gives them FOUR

I don't think it's fair to count the kill the night of the redirect - that's an expected kill.
It does give them the redirected death, the mislynch, and a free kill thereafter though. So the power interplay is a 3 kill swing in scum's favor, I'll agree with that.

[Thor665]

And also it does that *if town plays Hider correctly* which is really the dickishness of it.

[Thor665]

Like, i think the setup would have been more balanced without a Hider.
That's kind of crazy to have to say - but true.

[d3x]

I didn't see it anywhere, but since this wasn't NAR, could we see the actual action resolution, plz? I'm guessing it was just Redirector->hider->everything else, but I'd like to know for certain.

[Kthxbye]

Let's be clear here.

I hid behind Thor to survive, NOT to confirm him.

I had a hard-on of a town read on Thor thus scum wasn't going to target him. The only way I would die is if I was wrong....which I wasn't. I

It was the right play.

[Thor665]

Hider is an investigative role, not a protective role.

[Kthxbye]

Hider is an investigative role AND a self preservation role.

[Thor665]

That's like saying supersaint is a protective role.

[d3x]

If you just wanted to live through the Night and were really

that

sure of your Read on Thor, you should just chosen not to Hide.