Also I really don't appreciate you saying I "tunneled NH all game". I had a lot of dialogue with both massive and SC trying to read them on D4/D5. I just never felt like I had a firm enough read to vote one of them in LYLO
In post 1345, Night Hunters wrote:It also makes me feel really uncomfortable about how "confused" players are jumping at this 1 v 1.
Who were you referring to here?
I think zefiend and Nahdia are both town. Did either of you get scum vibes from SirCakez opening post today? The "not sure if MyLo or not" feels fake.
I can see scum!massive but it's mostly by proxy of him coasting all game. He's in my lynchpool but SirCakez's "yeah sure" attitude makes me hesitate.
NH
- read on massive? Why didn't you respond to Nahdia suggesting to lynch him?
In post 1352, GuiltyLion wrote:SirCakez can you walk me through why your read on NH went from scum to town over the first three days, and where it stands now
In post 1357, SirCakez wrote:
I can go more in detail when I get home but basically I hated their entire push on me because it was full of misrep (faking my reads for example) but
then once they moved past me they improved
.
Can you be more specific about this bolded part, when "they improved"? Which posts and when?
In post 1526, massive wrote:
If that's the case, how on earth do you get to NH-scum? It would seem to me that, if you believe NH-scum, there's no real reason to believe there's a scum-RB.
Shaddowez and Fire both claimed to be roleblocked.
Are you paying attention? I can't imagine how you'd forget that if you were trying to solve the game
In post 1557, massive wrote:
I didn't forget. I asked "where's the proof?" I'm pretty sure mathematically it's been proven that Fire at least lied about N1, which means that both he and Shaddowez can be explained by Fire's own "results." Or do you think Fire was telling the truth? If you do, why is NH claiming Fire lied just "ridiculous" (1519) and not flat out scummy?
How has it been proven that Fire lied? Walk me through that one.
NH claiming that Fire lied IS ridiculous. It's rejecting information coming from a proven town in order to justify their own claim. It should be obvious to you that that's scummy, I don't know why you're acting like I'm supposed to explicitly state as much.
There are 4 days left and I'm getting the sense that you're stalling it out. Do you still think SC is scum? Do you think NH is town?
In post 1697, GuiltyLion wrote:I'm p sure it's NH/massive, so up to you Cakez/zefiend. NH/Cakez is a slightly less probable team, I'd put it at 20%, but their interactions all game read closer to TvS than SvS
Look at all this non-NH tunneling
Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 9:33 am
by SirCakez
In post 1922, GuiltyLion wrote:Also look at what SC said makes him town - the fact that he pushed massive and the fact that he posted with 8 hours to deadline. He's literally using the wagon to angle for towncred, as I am trying to show you!
In post 1685, SirCakez wrote:DEADLINE SUDDENLY APPEARS 8 HOURS VOTE: massive
I am more confident in this being scum then NH
Like, what about this reads to you like town pushing their scum suspect? This is an insurance vote. He moves to NH as soon as I showed up and we were in a crossvote
I only moved to NH because it looked like massive wasn't going to happen - because of you voting NH!
In post 1685, SirCakez wrote:DEADLINE SUDDENLY APPEARS 8 HOURS VOTE: massive
I am more confident in this being scum then NH
Like, what about this reads to you like town pushing their scum suspect? This is an insurance vote. He moves to NH as soon as I showed up and we were in a crossvote
I only moved to NH because it looked like massive wasn't going to happen -
because of you voting NH!
zefiend - look at the bolded. SC is acting like I derailed his massive wagon by voting NH. I voted NH _after_ they had already voted me. Crossvoting is the only appropriate vote for me there because if it was TvT then the game was already lost (fortunately it wasn't the case in this game as massive wasn't here). NH was the one refusing to join a massive wagon first, but SC is presenting a different narrative where I stalled his lynch. He's not reasoning logically, he's spinning it to make me look scummy.
Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 7:30 am
by SirCakez
???
You avoided voting massive until you had to hammer him. Before that you were consistently focused on NH. You were working on derailing from massive.
Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 10:00 am
by GuiltyLion
How was I derailing lmao
NH and I were in crossvote, you don't move from that because it only increases town chance of losing on a TvT vote
Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 10:01 am
by SirCakez
By avoiding voting massive completely until the day end?
Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 10:01 am
by SirCakez
I was in a crossvote with NH too at one point, that didn't stop me from going back to massive.
Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 11:16 am
by ɀefiend
Let's try something else. Can both of you go look at Thor's associatives and find some evidence on the other? I will do the same.
Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 11:24 am
by SirCakez
In post 396, Thor665 wrote:
I do think Cake's vote was bad and showed scum mindset.
Here's the start of Thor's consistent push on me. He never drops this scumread.
In post 410, Thor665 wrote:
In the meantime - on the basis that I agree Cake is screwy and massive is bad, please sheep me on Firebird.
This is more pushing on me. Thor would have had to been double bussing here if I was scum and Thor wouldn't do that as scum.
In post 438, GuiltyLion wrote:Thor - why would scum!Firebringer claim a PR on D1 at the slightest sign of pressure? What does scum gain from that? He saves himself for a day or two at most.
"Thor, why would scum claim a PR over a VT" is what you're asking me here.
To which my answer is - because that's what most scum do...like, easily over 50% of scum claims when they happen claim a PR because that's proper scum play.
Like, as a reverse, how often do you see scum claim VT versus PR?
Now, on the presumption that you agree with me that most scum claim a PR the only raised issue here is the *when*, not the claim, but that it happened on Day 1.
That said, read between the lines on what he's claiming and recognize that he is literally making one of the single safest scum PR claims in the game *while still keeping it vague enought hat if he needed to change it he could and would have plausible deniability*.
At that point what you're asking me is "Thor, why would scum softly hint at something to avoid being a lynch target" to which my answer is - "why wouldn't they, that's what scum want - to *not* be a lynch target. Because if scum don't get lynched, odds are they win the game, so he is, in fact, doing exactly what scum should do."
So my question back is - what has he done that remotely seems like something scum wouldn't do and why?
Also, while we're at it, what do you think of his reaction to me?
Do you see that as a town reaction of someone who felt the need to hint being a town PR?
Or do you see that as nervous scum recognizing that he is busted?
Because I know what it looks like to me, and it's so blatant I am concerned that you don't see it - so what do you see?
Here's a big wall response Thor made to GL that looks like scum feeding content to a buddy.
In post 459, Thor665 wrote:
I found Cake the only obviouslly objectionable vote, though Kirroha's was a solid runner up in skeeviness.
More shade casting at me
In post 572, Thor665 wrote:This is even more interesting.SirCake has bounced way up in my scum rankings.
In post 612, SirCakez wrote:Because Fire always plays like this. I learned that the hard way in another game as town where I pushed him for all the same reasons you are.
You are really not paying attention to my stated reasons.
Then again no one is.
Then again maybe I'm overestimating how clear I've made them.
You did read my "cards on the table" post, right?
Did you get anything from it at all - or did you have no idea what I was sayign and decided to ignore it and not ask for clarification?
I'm really wondering this because I am not having that case responded to and I'm thinking it means literally nobody understands what I'm saying but are refusing to admit it and ask me. Which is bonkers.
@SirCakes
Are you intentionally ducking these questions?
If not - please answer them.
If so - please say so, in order that I don't need to keep repeating myself.
And more.
In post 670, Thor665 wrote:
@GuiltyLion - your play is atrocious and dodgy, I'm not compromising with you, and considering your past actions I find it disingenuous that you're trying to do so with me. Especially since there are so many other vanity wagons with less support than my wagon on Fire - why not address them? Firescum just amps up your tell here, better start prepping that defense, you can't get rid of me.
Here's the first and only mention of a GL scumread in his ISO. He never follows this up.
In post 728, Thor665 wrote:Though, actually, in thinking about it, the worst I could say about Ari's play is something I could also say about both the people voting him.
No idea what this is supposed to mean, can you explain?
I mean the best case I could make against Ari I could just switch out names and make it against you - so I'm wondering why you're voting him with a naked vote.
Unless you state it as the same reasons as before, that is a naked vote - now the vote isn't naked.
In post 752, GuiltyLion wrote:My biggest problem is with how he said "tojam is giddy to kill a PR [referring to his NH vote]", which looks to me like what scum would say when they're trying to push a wagon through. There's no natural reason to describe tojam's play that way, it's pure embellishment.
I hate this reasoning, but you actually just bumped into a town read for me so, good work on that.
Hop on the Jeanne wagon now - it should be sexy.
And here he makes GL a townread for hating his reasoning?
Tl;dr Thor heavily pushed me while avoiding interaction with GL
2. Why not Firebringer? (and, as an addendum to this question - what are your thoughts about his nervously self-noted OMGUS on me after I claimed I caught him as scum, like, you find that the townie reaction? Y'know, when you play as scum and someone is like "I *know* you are scum" your immediate reaction is to vote them, laugh it off as OMGUS, and not start demanding to, y'know, ask 'why' they claim to know you're scum, since clearly they have to be wrong, and also it would be slightly psychotic for scum to try a 1 v 1 on Day 1, so...y'know, they're either incredibly bad scum you ought to be able to own, or really mistaking town you should try to sort...that's how you'd play it, right, with an OMGUS? Talk me through your reaction, or specifically your lack of one, to that.)
Thor on replacing in did a lot to steer attention away from both massive and SirCakez and push it onto Firebringer. This post in particular is a long case singling out kirroha and trying to move her from Cakez to Fire. It's exactly what NH said -
unless his team is massive/Cakez
, Thor is town, because he went for a completely different (and difficult) push rather than jumping on a plausible mislynch, if either of them had been town. NH got the read wrong because the top two wagons of the day so far had been on scum
More in a sec as I'm mobile posting
Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 5:23 am
by GuiltyLion
In post 451, Thor665 wrote:Overnight - Nigh Hunter makes a move I agree with for reasons that are unclear to me.
Firebringer continues to claim scum by playing AtE bombs against both people voting him while tryingto appear playful and making 5+ posts with zero scumhunting in them.
The rest of the thread sleeps and continues to miss the scum claims, or is sitting there scared to comment on the ongoing events for reasons that also escape me.
Not sad with the current vote count, that one will be atreasure trove later. I am intrigued that as I come in and start a hard push on scum the massive wagon disintegrates and the Cake wagon builds. I have no idea what that means now, but on the off chance I'm not around later I'd just like to note to everyone that a few flipped alignments will make that one super interesting.
I also notice a couple of times that Thor draws attention to both massive and SirCakez simultaneously (while pushing neither). There's another quote I accidentally deleted that I'll put up right after this one. But this one is particularly noteworthy because Thor starts trying to distance
between
massive and Cakez. He's making it sound like one is town and one is scum, and I suspect he planned to push that angle later if one of them ever got flipped.
Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 5:28 am
by GuiltyLion
In post 410, Thor665 wrote:Hurm, that post wasn't signed, but I will take by inference that you are saying it was Titus.
My counter then to your gut read is - ask Titus about my usual "tone" and then come back and clarify if you still think this is how I play as scum but not as town. I think that will save me a headache and you time.
In the meantime - on the basis that I agree Cake is screwy and massive is bad, please sheep me on Firebird.
Seriously - ask Titus to read my entrance and Fire's claim again in context, then sheep.
Here's the other post where Thor suspects both Cake and massive in the same breath. It may be all just WIFOM (I usually look at what living players say about the flipped scum rather than vice versa), but I think he's being cheeky here and covering for two partners simultaneously. Surely he wouldn't soft-scumread-and-distance from BOTH partners, right? That's what I would want to think when rereading him, which was probably his design.
Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 5:33 am
by GuiltyLion
In post 595, SirCakez wrote:All of the votes that aren't on one of the top three wagons need to move to one of those wagons. Fire isn't happening today.
We may have to move back to Thor if we can't get the NH votes.
This post from Cakez is interesting. He's softly floating a Thor lynch, but with very little conviction. Similar to how he 'pushed' massive yesterday. It a grab for towncred in case Thor wound up being a surprise D1 lynch, but then he kept his vote on NH and then moved to tojam
Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 5:36 am
by GuiltyLion
Also Cakez saying Thor "heavily pushed" him is scum embellishment. Thor didn't ever vote Cakez, he chased down people who were voting Cakez instead.
Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 2:01 pm
by ɀefiend
I think the answer to this game lies somewhere in Thor's posts because
1) As I believe NH pointed out, if Thor was on the scum team, he would have concocted the "plan."
2) Most of Thor's references are to Fire, massive, SC, and GL, in that order. Once NH and I auto-town read him, he pretty much ignored us. A few posts single out other townies but they're useless now.
3) The narrative with GL and the narrative with SC is being interpreted differently by each of you. Therefore I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
It just sucks that it's up to me to find that middle.
But I like the focus on this topic, so please try to find the missteps/holes in each other's arguments while I look over Thor's posts myself. It should be very telling that both of you chose different posts of Thor's ISO except 410.
Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 11:11 pm
by GuiltyLion
SirCakez argument is "he was scumreading me and avoiding GL", but he doesn't show why that supposedly makes him town.
Like I said in 1946 Thor never "pushed" Cakez once (I define pushing as "advocating for their lynch"). Instead, he explicitly tried to get kirroha to move her vote off of him, and pretty much tunneled Fire for the entirety of his time alive.
It's true that he didn't push me either, and started "townreading" me, but that behaviour is more consistent with how he treated NH and zefiend as well.
What did you think about my point about Thor's 451? Scum!Thor is calling out how a wagon shifted from scum!massive to SirCakez, and said that will be "interesting" after a few flipped alignments. What would he gain from that comment if SirCakez was town? If SirCakez were to flip green, then he's locked into a massive scumread. If massive flips red, SirCakez is ostensibly off the table for a future lynch.
2. Why not Firebringer? (and, as an addendum to this question - what are your thoughts about his nervously self-noted OMGUS on me after I claimed I caught him as scum, like, you find that the townie reaction? Y'know, when you play as scum and someone is like "I *know* you are scum" your immediate reaction is to vote them, laugh it off as OMGUS, and not start demanding to, y'know, ask 'why' they claim to know you're scum, since clearly they have to be wrong, and also it would be slightly psychotic for scum to try a 1 v 1 on Day 1, so...y'know, they're either incredibly bad scum you ought to be able to own, or really mistaking town you should try to sort...that's how you'd play it, right, with an OMGUS? Talk me through your reaction, or specifically your lack of one, to that.)
Thor on replacing in did a lot to steer attention away from both massive and SirCakez and push it onto Firebringer. This post in particular is a long case singling out kirroha and trying to move her from Cakez to Fire. It's exactly what NH said -
unless his team is massive/Cakez
, Thor is town, because he went for a completely different (and difficult) push rather than jumping on a plausible mislynch, if either of them had been town. NH got the read wrong because the top two wagons of the day so far had been on scum
More in a sec as I'm mobile posting
This is basically the only legitimate post you have for me being scum with Thor. And the like 5 times he said later he was scumreading me/hated my posts or whatever outweigh this.
In post 451, Thor665 wrote:Overnight - Nigh Hunter makes a move I agree with for reasons that are unclear to me.
Firebringer continues to claim scum by playing AtE bombs against both people voting him while tryingto appear playful and making 5+ posts with zero scumhunting in them.
The rest of the thread sleeps and continues to miss the scum claims, or is sitting there scared to comment on the ongoing events for reasons that also escape me.
Not sad with the current vote count, that one will be atreasure trove later. I am intrigued that as I come in and start a hard push on scum the massive wagon disintegrates and the Cake wagon builds. I have no idea what that means now, but on the off chance I'm not around later I'd just like to note to everyone that a few flipped alignments will make that one super interesting.
I also notice a couple of times that Thor draws attention to both massive and SirCakez simultaneously (while pushing neither). There's another quote I accidentally deleted that I'll put up right after this one. But this one is particularly noteworthy because Thor starts trying to distance
between
massive and Cakez. He's making it sound like one is town and one is scum, and I suspect he planned to push that angle later if one of them ever got flipped.
Scum doesn't do distancing for someone else wtf is this. That's not how distancing works.
In post 410, Thor665 wrote:Hurm, that post wasn't signed, but I will take by inference that you are saying it was Titus.
My counter then to your gut read is - ask Titus about my usual "tone" and then come back and clarify if you still think this is how I play as scum but not as town. I think that will save me a headache and you time.
In the meantime - on the basis that I agree Cake is screwy and massive is bad, please sheep me on Firebird.
Seriously - ask Titus to read my entrance and Fire's claim again in context, then sheep.
Here's the other post where Thor suspects both Cake and massive in the same breath. It may be all just WIFOM (I usually look at what living players say about the flipped scum rather than vice versa), but I think he's being cheeky here and covering for two partners simultaneously. Surely he wouldn't soft-scumread-and-distance from BOTH partners, right? That's what I would want to think when rereading him, which was probably his design.
Thor isn't one of those "WIFOM!" players who would double bus to fight meta. Actually this was one of his first games back iirc. So to suggest he was trying to out-WIFOM by double scumreading is ridiculous.
In post 595, SirCakez wrote:All of the votes that aren't on one of the top three wagons need to move to one of those wagons. Fire isn't happening today.
We may have to move back to Thor if we can't get the NH votes.
This post from Cakez is interesting. He's softly floating a Thor lynch, but with very little conviction. Similar to how he 'pushed' massive yesterday. It a grab for towncred in case Thor wound up being a surprise D1 lynch, but then he kept his vote on NH and then moved to tojam
This is basically suggesting a bizarre bussing/distancing/grab for towncred play which makes no sense.
In post 1946, GuiltyLion wrote:Also Cakez saying Thor "heavily pushed" him is scum embellishment. Thor didn't ever vote Cakez, he chased down people who were voting Cakez instead.
I have multiple quotes backing this up. He was definitely pushing me.
