Mini Normal 2062: Erinnerungen (um game over)


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Post Post #1925 (ISO) » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:37 am

Post by mastina »

In post 1910, Creature wrote:*also makes half the town extremely strong PRs to counter all that "power" from scum*
Not half the town.
One third, exactly, of the town.

There's never a world where a JOAT with those powers is a strong power role.

Typical Normal Game balance standards are as such:
Against a 3-goon scumteam, the town needs about 3 moderately strong town power roles.

This is the UNIVERSAL balance standard.

Against a 3-goon scumteam plus an extra scum member, the town needs
more
than three moderately strong town power roles.
First, they need to have someone be Informed of there being four scum--again, it'd be borderline bastard not to let the town know about there being an extra scum in the game.
Then they need those three moderately strong town power roles to be stronger,
or
, two extra moderately strong town power roles, for FIVE moderately strong town power roles PLUS the Informed townie. I used the former rather than the latter (which was veering dangerously close to role madness territory).

But then
, the scum--already the informed minority, starting the game with more information than the town--were given
more
information, knowing the exact number of town power roles in the game.

Which necessitated a fourth PR of weak-to-moderate strength, which is exactly what the JOAT was.
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Post Post #1926 (ISO) » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:54 am

Post by mastina »

In post 1917, Vedith wrote:I ignored the 4 VT thing and was underestimating town having strong roles left.
And there's the problem.

If you forget the fucking information which is mod-provided to you.

Then no duh it's going to bite you in the ass?

Scum were given the information they needed to know. There were five power roles in the game.
As one of the town players claimed to be Informed, it can generally be assumed that the player claiming that has no additional power. (Obviously, they
could
, but five extremely strong roles in the game is less likely than four strong roles plus a weaker role of Informed.)

If Creature hadn't been the N1 nightkill, you could even have pushed the narrative that Persivul was a scum traitor whose information on knowing there were four scum in the game came from being the fourth scum. Or even after the kill, but before the town PR claimfest, claimed that Persivul was a second traitor. (Which
was
an idea I proposed if the reviewer thought the idea was too scumsided.) Killing him was a mistake, because he was a known entity.

There are dozens of ways this game would've ended in a scum win. It'd only have taken ONE of them to have happened. Not killing Creature but otherwise lynching the same people. Sending the already-caught scum to do the nightkill rather than leading to another caught scum. Killing different town PRs or killing them in a different order. Handling the guilties in a different way.

Keep in mind this town had zero protective power. The watcher could catch a killer, yes, but that's not really a protective ability.
Keep in mind that the town had no way of knowing scum had no roleblocking power. They didn't, but there was no way for the vig to know a failed shot was for sure on town, or for the neighborizer to know a failed neighborize was for sure on scum.

Heck, even when it was brought up, these actions were considered soft-guilties, not hard-guilties. The PRs claiming the condemning results were willing to believe that their actions didn't necessarily condemn their guilties to being scum (even though they were in fact on scum).

This setup was, by its very nature, always going to be swingy as fuck, yes, but the game was designed to revolve around precise, tight play focusing and emphasizing strong dayplay; the town in the worst-case scenario would've had only two mislynches before lylo...and in lylo, critically,
PR results wouldn't be able to be blindly trusted
.

You had PR results outside of lylo which could be blindly followed consequence-free...but if those results were instead in lylo, suddenly it looks like scum trying to make a play for the win.

The setup was more or less designed with the idea that on D3, the town would have to use their wits to figure out what claims had merit and which claims were bogus. The setup was designed so that on D3, the town in lylo, would have some information to sort through...but the information wouldn't be able to be trusted 100%. Which would result in people scumhunting off of dayplay, rather than sheeping role actions.

Town being able to sheep role actions was pretty much the best-case scenario for them, only possible because of town getting the best night actions and scum submitting some of the worst night actions.

Run this setup more times, and in it the town fucks up and the scum DON'T fuck up almost all of the time.
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Post Post #1927 (ISO) » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:55 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

wait are scum complaining that this game was townsided lol
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #1928 (ISO) » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:56 am

Post by RAS »

Thanks for the clarification and write-ups regarding the setup, mastina. I know this wasn't aimed at me, but I appreciate having more information since I initially believed that the setup was town-sided initially since I'm not used to having so many PR's in one game.
Then again, I wasn't here for the whole game, so my opinion means next-to-nothing here.


The thing is even if you disregard the poor NK target N1, scum still had a good chance of winning had FL NK'd over Vedith N3. That N3 misplay alone (despite the others) is what ultimately cost scum this game, and it was such a simple mistake at that. A lot of things went wrong for the scum-team throughout this game, and they still nearly won.
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Post Post #1929 (ISO) » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:11 pm

Post by Zulfy »

Strongly agree
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Post Post #1930 (ISO) » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:56 pm

Post by Boonskiies »

Playing as scum in 2 games with 4 player scum teams, I’m just not a fan of it. I think the setup was cool, and we got lucky with that day 1 PR flip.

But yeah, not a fan of 9:4 (3.5)
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Post Post #1931 (ISO) » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:00 pm

Post by Boonskiies »

To be fair, I was playing in both of those 4 player scum team setups simultaneously, and they’re my 2 weakest scum games in years. :lol:

Actually, I don’t think I played that poorly here, I just got guiltied. I expected to go down in this one anyways since I knew a lot of the players, and then Ras just no holds barred me
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Post Post #1932 (ISO) » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:37 pm

Post by u r a person 2 »

Yay! GG everyone!
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Post Post #1933 (ISO) » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:47 pm

Post by insomnia »

Nah FL you are the MVP for that fake hammer jeez lmao
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Post Post #1934 (ISO) » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:12 pm

Post by Vedith »

In post 1926, mastina wrote:If you forget the fucking information which is mod-provided to you.
That's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying I underestimate the role potential and didn't really have the concern on the PRs that I obviously should have.
Yes that's on me, but it's different to your point.

I appreciate the response back and I'm not looking to make this just negative as I've already stated.

My main concern which I already pointed out was town knowing there's 4 scum. That in itself counters the fact to having 4 scum.

If you want to go by re roll on the game, town can have 2 confirmed town and a confirmed scum all in one go night 1.
Town can also have 3 scum confirmed night 1.
And by average majority of games the 2 roles that are loyal/disloyal do not get lynched day 1, and on average don't claim either.

I'm not taking anything away from town. I said they did great and I enjoyed the game. And we didn't do great. That's all it goes down to this roll in particular.
Setup wise though, I disagree here.
I claim scum \o/
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Post Post #1935 (ISO) » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:17 pm

Post by Vedith »

In post 1933, insomnia wrote:Nah FL you are the MVP for that fake hammer jeez lmao
:up:
I claim scum \o/
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Post Post #1936 (ISO) » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:18 pm

Post by Vedith »

Also I don't want people to think what I'm saying is purely because of losing.
Anyone who has played with me knows that my win/loss is not a concern what so ever and not the reasons for my posts.
I claim scum \o/
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Post Post #1937 (ISO) » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:35 pm

Post by L84Dnr »

Good game everybody.

Very clean scum game Vedith. I had no inkling that you were scum until the PRs gave you away. I think that if Leaf had NKed URAP instead of you we'd have likely mislynched DEB today. Either way it went down to LYLO, which is a good game by my standards.
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Post Post #1938 (ISO) » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:04 pm

Post by Lycanfire »

9:4 = 9.06% EV
4 tprs
32.64% EV

not counting night actions or scum pr

most concerning problems: surprise endgaming, inability of scum to fakeclaim pr without trading members, in fact, it's pretty much a necessity. this isn't BAD game design, I think it's perfectly valid to have a setup in mind where you'd want to force scum to 1:1 even though it is accepted to normally be better for town. it's about having a goal and being conscious of what can happen.

the informed setup knowledge solves 1. traitor is good to solve 2. the mod iso hurts my eyes. i'd like to see the review thread to get a better idea of what powers were flying around.

don't really have a sense of whether this game was broken or not these are more instinctual thoughts
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Post Post #1939 (ISO) » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:10 pm

Post by Lycanfire »

by the way i made it very clear after large normal 218 that i think informed knowledge at least at the quantity it's being given out is complete bullshit and another example of unchecked power creep and i really, really disagree with mastina's "borderline bastard" comment. i'm more in favor of subtle ways to hint at setup ideas and leaving it to the players to figure out. that's not to say you can't inform anyone of anything but this, it's "10:3, no multiball, sk (which is multiball in 2kshiteen meta) cop, doc, exactly 4 vts, mod promises to wipe your ass and do vca for you" disclaimer is going to hurt the metagame and probably deserves it's own MD thread if there's somebody that actually wants to stick up for it.
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Post Post #1940 (ISO) » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:24 am

Post by Zulfy »

no investigation no right to speak
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Post Post #1941 (ISO) » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:28 am

Post by Lycanfire »

if this setup was re-run i would suggest (with the added benefits of new modifiers that weren't legal when the setup was designed)
simple vigilante
3-shot watcher
informed 4-shot neighbourizer, told there's a traitor
i'm going to pretend the encryptor change never happened because it's stupid
joat {voyeur follower tracker}
informed goon to knowing there's a role that interacts specifically with vanilla roles
traitor already simpleproof


scum massively underperformed, but after n1 town ev plummets w/pr lynch (25.09% compared to above, but considering i never factored in the informed townie the first time around...) i don't care to look into the context behind the kill. if it was just fear killing creature w/o role reason that's the mafia's fault but there's also the chance that he won the mastina award of getting n1ed as competent traitor.

i don't really care to write an essay about why disloyal vig is the strongest role in the metagame but here's something i said in AP review about my impression of the NRG's use of vigs
In post 26, Lycanfire wrote:I've been doing some viewing of normals as this is very standard stuff. It seems like the NRG is fickle when it comes to 3½-4 town PRs. For instance, a game comparable to this (3½) gave scum
two
power roles. While a game that featured a cop, tracker, a osbp that was told when it was shot (now an illegal normal role), and vigilante they gave scum
one
power role (weaker than the one we're giving! even-night roleblocker). I get the impression that the NRG
vastly
underrates the power of vigilante (easily the strongest town role in the game-much better than a cop, actually!). This setup only makes sense if they believed the vigilante would never act pro-town and would act as negative utility, but they really should have made it a serial killer and called it a day in that case.
respect vigs


probably not the start these 9:4 setups want to have. i get that you have to sometimes throw a curveball. soft modifiers not exactly adding up to cop, but if you never have them actually perform at their strongest they will always assume their action can be tampered with, which is bad for the metagame. it's like a gunsmith always thinking there's a mafia doc or cop around. it takes more skill to actually trust your result than to be cognizant of it having mixed results. i think the disloyal modifier was added on out of fear that they would game throw rather than with the intent to make it in every way better than a cop. if you can't trust towns not to game throw i think games ought to go in the opposite direction. take out a scum, focus on day play. maybe then go in the opposite direction.
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Post Post #1942 (ISO) » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:22 am

Post by Flavor Leaf »

In post 1933, insomnia wrote:Nah FL you are the MVP for that fake hammer jeez lmao
Haha, I can’t believe it worked so instantly. :lol:
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Post Post #1943 (ISO) » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:23 am

Post by Flavor Leaf »

In post 1942, Flavor Leaf wrote:
In post 1933, insomnia wrote:Nah FL you are the MVP for that fake hammer jeez lmao
Haha, I can’t believe it worked so instantly. :lol:

Ooo, and this is the first time I’ve seen my pretty new banner. :)
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Post Post #1944 (ISO) » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:33 pm

Post by u r a person 2 »

These were my night action pms to zulfy on Night 2
u r a person 2 wrote:vedith
u r a person 2 wrote:Actually, I'd like to switch my check to Flavor Leaf because paranoia and im bad at the game
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Post Post #1945 (ISO) » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:35 pm

Post by Zulfy »

Yea that made me chuckle
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Post Post #1946 (ISO) » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:48 pm

Post by implosion »

If you want to nominate this game or any people in it (moderator or players) for a scummy, please do!
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