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Sorry I misrepped your argument a bit. Let me ask another question then.

In post 1948, Toto wrote:It's unlikely that both Chaos and Creeps are lying

Why can't just Chaos be lying, if Creeps is telling the truth?

Also this is assuming that Creeps even claimed Miller, which he didn't. All he said is that 1. his role doesn't scream town, and 2. that we'd be sorry if we lynched him.

Ok, I think I get where you are coming from.

My thinking: , a Cop makes sense. Chaos is not lying unless

1) He noticed Creeps was claiming Miller. I did not notice it and I don't think many people did. (maybe he didn't)
2) They are both scum and fakeclaimed to complement each other

I'm assigning a low probability to (1) and (2).

Another way to see it: if we have a miller then we probably have a cop. So if we have a miller Chaos is probably not lying.

In post 1952, Toto wrote: My thinking:

If we have a Miller

, a Cop makes sense. Chaos is not lying unless

1) He noticed Creeps was claiming Miller. I did not notice it and I don't think many people did. (maybe he didn't)
2) They are both scum and fakeclaimed to complement each other

I'm assigning a low probability to (1) and (2).

3) Chaos didn't notice Creeps was claiming Miller but fakeclaimed Cop anyway because Cop is a common role in Normals.
4) Creeps didn't claim Miller (which is true) so Chaos' claim is completely unconnected to anything Creeps said.

For the record I assign a very high probability to 4, and think 3 is probably also true.

Yes. But

(3) doesn't the existence of a miller makes cop very likely (mod doesn't add roles randomly, I think).
(4) is easy to check. Miller is a modifier and we don't lose anything if Shadow says it is so.

In post 1956, Toto wrote:Yes. But

(3) doesn't the existence of a miller makes cop very likely (mod doesn't add roles randomly, I think).
(4) is easy to check. Miller is a modifier and we don't lose anything if Shadow says it is so.

Agree with your assessment of 4. But you're voting Arc now and I think your reasons are bad.

If there is a Miller - why can't Chaos be lying and there also exist another Cop?

I said another, I meant a real Cop.

Dude...

Why did you unvote?

Something you said. Need to think this through.

Ok, there is no way to solve this without Shadow's and Arc's participation. So:

1) Shadow, what do you think of Chaos' claim?
2) Arch, do you still want to lynch Chaos?

How does 1) help you determine whether or not Chaos is lying?

Well I'm interested in both answers. But (1) by itself helps because it eliminates some of the cases we discussed before.

In post 1966, Toto wrote:Well I'm interested in both answers. But (1) by itself helps because it eliminates some of the cases we discussed before.

No it doesn't. Here's a possible answer from Shadow: "I think Chaos is telling the truth! He is a trustworthy fellow." Which of the cases does this eliminate?

Mort, can you let them answer the questions first? I can explain later what my intention with this was. Spelling it out for them defeats the whole purpose...

Ok. I think it's the wrong question is all. I also don't think Miller or no Miller or Creeps has anything to do with whether Chaos is lying, but I will leave you to the inquiry and see where it takes you.

In post 1969, MortFeld wrote:Ok. I think it's the wrong question is all. I also don't think Miller or no Miller or Creeps has anything to do with whether Chaos is lying, but I will leave you to the inquiry and see where it takes you.

This Juan.

But don't be deterred Toto.

I'm just saying that creeps was implying negative utility but that kid is a serious space cadet and so I have no idea what to think. We could have no miller and he might not even be negative utility and it's unrelated to Chaos.

But I'm actually curious what you're seeing here Toto.

Anyway I think Toto is town here.

I like the Drone + HS case tbh, wish I wasn't so adhd and xapable of casing like that tbh

Okay everyone just be really inactive that's cool too.