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In post 19693, Glork wrote:

In post 19687, Nexus wrote:I want to get good at Cho, but no idea how I should be building him.

Generally speaking, fat and sassy. Coming out of the jungle, I'll typically build Mobi Boots, Spirit of the Ancient Golem, Rylai's, Randuin's Omen, and a Warmog's, in whichever order I feel is necessary depending on game state.

Depending on the situation, you may consider Abyssal, Aegis/Bulwark, or Locket.

If you're playing Cho top or mid, Mobi Boots becomes Merc Treads, and you can replace Spirit of the Ancient Golem with whatever-you-feel-like.

I've tried building Cho as more of a damage dealing AP bruiser, and I just don't like it. In SoloQ especially, I find Cho to be much more effective when I can just park myself on the front line forever and initiate with Q over and over again until my team finally grows some balls and goes in.

Easy for cho to become a brick with a bit of CC. He also benefits from some mana. Basically, as a tank you want to make sure that you customize your build to the enemy. If your bot lane is stomping and there's no other big sources of physical damage, get MR so you can crush the midlaner. On the other hand if your bot lane is getting crushed and you know that the ADC is gonna be a big deal, you'll want Randuins so you can stick to him and kill him (and maybe even Frozen Heart on top of that)

Best items for him are:

(at least one of these is basically mandatory)
Rod of Ages - helps with his truly ridiculous mana costs, and also provides some health and some more damage on his abilities. The winner is truly Catalyst, which helps Cho a lot before level 11 or so.
Frozen Heart - Armor, Mana, and CDR, plus a great aura. Only problem is expense. Definitely build this if they have 2 or more autoattackers (Irelia, Jax, Udyr, basically anyone who likes to get AAs off)
Spirit of the Ancient Golem - The mana item for junglers, this is just fine.



Randuins - Obvious, and a very good item all around on Cho.
Locket of the Iron Solari - Really good CDR, and a great team utility shield. One of Cho's problems is that people can ignore him once he pops all his CC, and Aura items help make him relevant at all times. Locket is a great one.
Frozen Heart - see above.


Spirit Visage - I wouldn't build it unless you have another source of healing on your team (Soraka or something) but 20% CDR and MR are actually both quite fine.
Runic Bulwerk - THE goto item for MR. Top lane or jungle, it's practically perfect on you.
Abyssal Scepter - only good if you have other AP damage, but if you have top Rumble/Mid Ryze or something this item goes way up in power.
Wit's End - there ain't no school like the old school. Actually AS works really well with his E, and it does make him more relevant. I'd only build this on Jungle cho if we were ahead and wanted to snowball harder.

On Cho'Gath in the jungle, I really like going for a Philosopher's Stone + Spirit Stone on my first back. It's a little more expensive than boots + Spirit Stone (1150 instead of 750) but it ramps you up into the late game much easier and lets you stay out and roam with great sustain until you can go back and flat buy a big ticket item... that first item for me is usually an Aegis if the enemy team is pretty balanced, or a Glacial Shroud if their ADC has done some stupid snowball bullshit. Of course, if your support is really wanting to build Aegis, you can just go for Glacial Shroud anyway. Build those to their natural conclusions (Frozen Heart + Shurelyia's), then you can pick up any assortment of tanky items (Randuin's Omen, hell even Thornmail for right click punishment since a lot of ADCs see a big scary monster coming at them and can't help but right click) or you could even grab an offensive item (Abyssal Scepter is the obvious one, but Frozen Mallet is pretty fun too because extra HP + having your vorpal spikes proc the on-hit slow is fun as hell and makes it easy to chase). I suppose Rylai's might even be possible, but I think I like Mallet a bit more.

Ugh, Frozen mallet has basically no relevant stats on it. If you're going to do that, I'd say Frozen Fist is infinitely better... it's hard to proc sheen with Cho'Gath, but at least all the stats are relevant as hell.

In post 19702, GreyICE wrote:Ugh, Frozen mallet has basically no relevant stats on it. If you're going to do that, I'd say Frozen Fist is infinitely better... it's hard to proc sheen with Cho'Gath, but at least all the stats are relevant as hell.

Health? Also AD still scales with a champion who uses auto attacks fairly well. It's the same thing as Teemo building FM. He is better off AP, but FM can help him to become a huge fucking nuisance.

Also, after getting slightly clamped down at the top of Bronze 1 (getting 8 points when I won at 84 and 92 each time) I just won my first game in Silver 5 and got 32 LP for it.

Nuts.

Every stat on Frozen Mallet is relevant if you're building as a bruiser.

In post 19703, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:

In post 19702, GreyICE wrote:Ugh, Frozen mallet has basically no relevant stats on it. If you're going to do that, I'd say Frozen Fist is infinitely better... it's hard to proc sheen with Cho'Gath, but at least all the stats are relevant as hell.

Health? Also AD still scales with a champion who uses auto attacks fairly well. It's the same thing as Teemo building FM. He is better off AP, but FM can help him to become a huge fucking nuisance.

Health is okay on Cho'gath, but he gets so so much of it for free (two Giants belts at 6 stacks). And Frozen mallet is very gold inefficient. If you don't really need health much and you don't need AD much then the inefficiency becomes a lot higher. It's not like cho will really chase down people and kill them without help, so it's better to focus on doing what Cho does best (get in the middle of teams and drive them nuts).

Bruiser cho is just not very good. He has ZERO AD ratios. NONE. Not a single one of his abilities has an AD ratio. There's just no reason to build him bruiser. Get Renekton, get Jax, get Irelia, get pretty much anyone else if you want to go play bruiser.

Feast stacks only mean that Cho doesn't need to buy health as quickly as other characters, not that he shouldn't bother at all.

Cho is more than capable of sticking to and killing things when played as a bruiser. I think it's usually worse than building AP on him, but bruiser Cho has it's niche and does things that none of the characters you listed can.

In post 19707, Patrick wrote:Feast stacks only mean that Cho doesn't need to buy health as quickly as other characters, not that he shouldn't bother at all.

Cho is more than capable of sticking to and killing things when played as a bruiser. I think it's usually worse than building AP on him, but bruiser Cho has it's niche and does things that none of the characters you listed can.

Yes, Cho can most definitely build health. Locket of the Iron Solari, Runic Bulwerk, Randuin's Omen, and even Rod of the Ages are all good ways to get health on him.

Frozen Mallet (one of the least efficient items in the entire game) is a TERRIBLE way to do it.

What would a bruiser Cho even look like? Frozen Mallet/Brutilizer (yay for making the auto attacks scarier)/Wits End? Please do not do this thing. If you want to do this, just buy a Trinity Force - it's not very good, but it's better than getting Mallet.

In post 19706, GreyICE wrote:Bruiser cho is just not very good. He has ZERO AD ratios. NONE. Not a single one of his abilities has an AD ratio. There's just no reason to build him bruiser. Get Renekton, get Jax, get Irelia, get pretty much anyone else if you want to go play bruiser.

Since when do bruisers need ad ratios? What kind of LOGIC IS THAT?

The worst thing that can happen to a champion you want to play as bruiser is that he has to build damage. Because he can't as he will die. Bruisers need base stats, or scaling from defensive stats. You list a nice couple of champions, each and everyone being a bruiser because they'd function in a team even if they build full tank, and still would be able to do more then CC people (as that means you are a tank). They have base stats.

Now, I wonder, why do you think cho's base stats are bad?

Of course it's an inefficient item in terms of numbers - you're paying gold for a slow, same as Rylais. That doesn't make it bad.

What would a bruiser Cho even look like? Frozen Mallet/Brutilizer (yay for making the auto attacks scarier)/Wits End? Please do not do this thing. If you want to do this, just buy a Trinity Force - it's not very good, but it's better than getting Mallet.

Not brutaliser when so much of your damage is magic. Not Tri Force, that seems legitmately bad on him. Definitely Wits End, probably Frozen Mallet, probably a Frozen Heart or Randuins. After that, depends on the game. Abyssal works if you need more MR, BORK is more dps, or you can buy more tank if you/your team needs it. I have done this thing and made it work. No, I wasn't playing with a bunch of weaker players.

In post 19708, GreyICE wrote:What would a bruiser Cho even look like?

Greyice is calling something he doesn't understand stupid. Bit of a pointless discussion.

In post 19709, mykonian wrote:

In post 19706, GreyICE wrote:Bruiser cho is just not very good. He has ZERO AD ratios. NONE. Not a single one of his abilities has an AD ratio. There's just no reason to build him bruiser. Get Renekton, get Jax, get Irelia, get pretty much anyone else if you want to go play bruiser.

Since when do bruisers need ad ratios? What kind of LOGIC IS THAT?

The worst thing that can happen to a champion you want to play as bruiser is that he has to build damage. Because he can't as he will die. Bruisers need base stats, or scaling from defensive stats. You list a nice couple of champions, each and everyone being a bruiser because they'd function in a team even if they build full tank, and still would be able to do more then CC people (as that means you are a tank). They have base stats.

Now, I wonder, why do you think cho's base stats are bad?

You confuse me. You mention full tank, and then mention bruiser. And you suggest that bruisers don't have to build damage items. Okay, so what do full tanks like Malphite, Cho'gath, Dr. Mundo, and Darius build that's different from bruisers?

Base values are nice and all, but Lee Sin does not kill people with base values (not past like level 6 at least). Jax does not become the terror of the game by building Randuins/Warmogs/Spirit Visage. Irelia always went Trinity Force GA back in season 2 - item 1 being Trinity Force.

Bruisers are characterized by scaling very well with AD and needing to be in the middle of the fight, resulting in them needing to build somewhat tanky as well. They lack the insane burst of assassins (Zed/Talon/etc.) but they also lack the incredible control that tanks bring to the party. What they have is incredibly good sustained damage coupled with solid utility that allows them to build 1-2 damage items and then tank and still charge in and be incredibly relevant.

I dare you to try building Jax or Irelia without damage items -_-

Renekton's base values are good enough he can afford to build full tank, as he can armor shred the opposing team then stand in the middle with Ult+Sunfire running and stun the ADC. Still, he usually ends up with at least 1 damage item when he's played, it just helps him out a lot in remaining a relevant threat (it's never Frozen Mallet).

Cho'Gath is relevant with zero damage items. Don't build Frozen Mallet if you're gonna build one, build Rod or... anything.

greyice wrote:You confuse me. You mention full tank, and then mention bruiser. And you suggest that bruisers don't have to build damage items. Okay, so what do full tanks like Malphite, Cho'gath, Dr. Mundo, and Darius build that's different from bruisers?

Base values are nice and all, but Lee Sin does not kill people with base values (

not past like level 6 at least

). Jax does not become the terror of the game by building Randuins/Warmogs/Spirit Visage. Irelia always went Trinity Force GA back in season 2 - item 1 being Trinity Force.

Congrats. You just explained what base stats are. Bruisers are defined by the fact that they don't have to build full ad to be meaningful. Irelia has her hiten style for that, Jax his ult, w, and gets free defensive options via counterstrike.

good AD scaling belongs in the realm of assassins. Those guys you have to build AD on to be meaningful, bruisers do not have to. Zed isn't a bruiser, nor is talon. (those are the guys you build brutalizer on btw. You don't build it on a bruiser if you can help it.)


Further, mundo is not a full tank. You could have known because he has little cc, he has great base stats, and limited scaling. A classic bruiser. Same for darius. Darius passive is just that big mark that you are apparently considering a bruiser, that's base stats right there.

You simply don't know what you are talking about.

No, Mykonian, you are the one who has no idea what you're talking about.

Stop defending Frozen Mallet. It's an extremely situational item, and none of those situations would ever lead to you building it on Cho'gath. Mundo is a full tank who does not build damage items unless the game is an lolsnowball (except that MPen Mundo build which is silly and might actually be okay). Yes, he's a high damage, low CC tank, but you still don't build damage items on him.

The difference between a bruiser and an assassin isn't the AMOUNT of damage, it's the NATURE of the damage. Assassins do all their damage at once. It's the same with AP mages. Karthus does amazing damage, but he's not an assassin - he does amazing damage over a length of time, thanks to defile and skittles (plus obviously R). Veigar or LeBlanc are assassins because they can kill you in the blink of an eye if you're squishy. Irelia does sustained damage over a period of time. So does Jax. Jax will do a lot, lot, lot more damage than Zed over the course of 30 seconds... but Zed will do a lot more damage over the course of 3.

Mundo plays like a bruiser and has to build SOME damage (wit's is great) after his natural scaling falls off. Full tank Mundo does no damage lategame.

Also, I'm Silver I now. Not too long 'til I hit Gold.

might stream some replay analysis of the games we played last night later if i dont pass out soon as a pseudo-pt 2 of my teams guide, will see

In post 19667, Ankamius wrote:

In post 19666, JDodge wrote:A major reason of writing this guide is to say this: anyone who is interested in starting a team of their own/joining a team has my full support. Get in touch with me. We can pool resources. I’ll give you access to our Mumble server. I’ll send you along any scrim partners we get so you can use them as well. I’ll tell you about any events we see that we think you might be interested in entering. I can give you all the advice I can give, we can go over replays together if you want, because I’m willing to dedicate myself almost as much to the success of the MS League populace as I am to ONM’s success.

I'm currently the only person from MS that is on the main roster, but Team Osu is willing to contribute to this as well.

This is no longer valid. Team Osu disbanded as of five minutes ago.

In other news, patching after a reinstall is horrifically slow.

In post 19717, Ankamius wrote:This is no longer valid. Team Osu disbanded as of five minutes ago.

In other news, patching after a reinstall is horrifically slow.

Is frozen mallet bad on renekton?

I often got BT/Warmogs/Mallet....

BC is too amazing to not get. FM's not cost-efficient without the slow, but if you need to stick, then the price is well worth it.

In post 19713, mykonian wrote:

greyice wrote:You confuse me. You mention full tank, and then mention bruiser. And you suggest that bruisers don't have to build damage items. Okay, so what do full tanks like Malphite, Cho'gath, Dr. Mundo, and Darius build that's different from bruisers?

Base values are nice and all, but Lee Sin does not kill people with base values (

not past like level 6 at least

). Jax does not become the terror of the game by building Randuins/Warmogs/Spirit Visage. Irelia always went Trinity Force GA back in season 2 - item 1 being Trinity Force.

Congrats. You just explained what base stats are. Bruisers are defined by the fact that they don't have to build full ad to be meaningful. Irelia has her hiten style for that, Jax his ult, w, and gets free defensive options via counterstrike.

good AD scaling belongs in the realm of assassins. Those guys you have to build AD on to be meaningful, bruisers do not have to. Zed isn't a bruiser, nor is talon.

(those are the guys you build brutalizer on btw. You don't build it on a bruiser if you can help it.)

Further, mundo is not a full tank. You could have known because he has little cc, he has great base stats, and limited scaling. A classic bruiser. Same for darius. Darius passive is just that big mark that you are apparently considering a bruiser, that's base stats right there.

You simply don't know what you are talking about.

Wukong and Garen (as well as several others) would like a word with you.

The difference between a bruiser and an assassin isn't the AMOUNT of damage, it's the NATURE of the damage. Assassins do all their damage at once. It's the same with AP mages. Karthus does amazing damage, but he's not an assassin - he does amazing damage over a length of time, thanks to defile and skittles (plus obviously R). Veigar or LeBlanc are assassins because they can kill you in the blink of an eye if you're squishy. Irelia does sustained damage over a period of time. So does Jax. Jax will do a lot, lot, lot more damage than Zed over the course of 30 seconds... but Zed will do a lot more damage over the course of 3.

Great, so far so good. Bruisers do it over time, assassins don't. You got it right that far. That in turn means bruisers are going to get hit, while assassins pick their moment where they probably won't as much as they tend to outburst their opponents. Now for the difference between tanks and bruisers, it's not how much health they have. Full tank cho prioritizes his abilities and wants to use them to disrupt the enemy team. He is not looking to deal damage, just doesn't want to die and wants to bring the aoe cc to defend his squisies. CDR and tankyness are generally the stats tanks prioritize, to make the most of their CC abilities.

Bruisers want to hurt people. On the flipside of the coin, they have trouble staying alive because everything is going to hit them while they try to do that.

You seem to think that tank/bruiser depends on the items they build. Many champions are inherently bruisers, because the only thing they can do is run into the other team, looking to hurt them. Only some (and cho is an example) gets to choose their role. And yes, you don't build damage on mundo. Because he doesn't scale very well with any stat except for perhaps attackspeed. That doesn't mean he doesn't hurt. 100 extra ad is not something a lot of bruisers get to build up. 4 sec cd percentage health damage cleavers are quite a nice touch as well. The fact that his offensive base stats are so ridiculous that he doesn't have to build damage doesn't make him a tank.


So yes, if you have a Cho who builds to run into the other team, trying to get autoattacks of there and stick to squishies, you are looking at a bruiser.

In post 19719, Benmage wrote:Is frozen mallet bad on renekton?

I often got BT/Warmogs/Mallet....

Depends a little on the game. It's amazing if you are ahead, less so when behind. Mallet makes your good trades count for more because your opponent can't get away from you. So if you expect to win your trades, mallet makes you a lot scarier.

He doesn't hurt nearly as much as you need him to, though. Pre-mitigation 210 damage autos and 90 damage/sec W are not that scary to a fully built carry who lifesteals for crazy amounts, and also probably has at least one defensive item. You don't have to rush damage on him or even build it most games, but if your 6 item build doesn't have it, you fall off during the very lategame. Mundo's got very little CC and is kept relevant by his damage. He does get an incredible amount from his kit, but surely you understand that once you've been level 18 for >15 minutes, his damage stops being terribly scary.

yup, that's why bruisers are midgame champions, as when they get shot to pieces by full build adcs the game gets awkward for them. Goes for all of them. If you've been at lv18 for over 15 minutes, being a bruiser isn't much fun.