Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[Scioness Sajj]

and just right now it looks like he is making excuses to not vote ofrhz since he is less likely to be scum with me

like the whole d2 from orfrhz is shaky but apparently few townie things that ofrhz said d1 are enough.

i think he just hates me that much?

[Scioness Sajj]

he may be faking but idk

[skitter30]

I was saying earlier that his interactions with the ofrhz wagon are weird. Like his conviction to vote ofrhz feels ... 'halfhearted' might be a good term?

And since oxy was saying till just now that ofrhz is my best partner and your best partner it's weird?

[Oxy]

Skitter - My gut, Mathdino, and NSG are all town reading skitter. I can't remember off the top of my head what your current read on skitter is, but I don't think you have bigly confidence in this read right now? Correct me if I'm wrong

a) since when are you gut-townreading me?

b) why are you sheeping math/NSG now? (ie and not earlier)

My gut started pinging me around the time I made that post with yellow writing inserted into your quote explaining how your quote was scum. Take a look at my ISO from then onward.

I mean, you're still either scum or wrong headed this game, and I believe every argument I've made from D1 onward as to why I would expect differently from you, and why your posts are scummy.

But the gut is saying something feels off, and the only way I understand your unvote from the first drixx wagon is if your partner is already on the wagon and you don't want to have an early lynch with both scum voting on the lynch. This implies Skitter + Ofrhz and Skitter + ruru

and skitter + ofrhz is possible, but doesn't take into account that
a) sajj looks scummy on her own
b) while skitter + sajj is possible, Sajj pocketing skitter seems more likely considering behavior (and sajj wasn't on the drixx wagon, so then I need a better motivation for your unvote)

Also, it was not so long ago that ruru and nsg were both considering you as a possible lynch, so sheeping them did not necessarily mean town reading you.

At this point, both of my town reads, and 1 confirmed town needs to be wrong for you to be scum.

[Oxy]

Next set of Ofrhz posts. These look a bit scummier than the last.

Spoiler:

I don’t understand what ‘fits for show’ have to do with the ate itself. I have NEVER in that game planned ate to gain towncred or townreads. I have mentioned fighting people or wanting to fight them.
Was I in skitter’s lynchpool?

I meant that you've been histrionic as scum before. You're right, I don't know if you were pretending to be offended or not, and in fact, I think you were genuinely pissed off at points in that game. However, my point at the end of the day is that you being pissed off isn't indicative of town, but skitter seems to think it is. (btw, https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 1#p9960891 is one example of the kind of post I'm talking about. Ruru found this earlier.)
I think I used the wrong word here. When I said "lynchpool," I meant "willing to lynch you if you were scummy" enough. She just said that she no longer wants to consider lynching you at all today, which is an extreme reaction and not at all consistent with her relatively cautious playstyle.

If his tunnel was actually a thing, and I believe in it more now since he has addmited, then I don't need to make it 'me or him'.
[truncated]

I like this post. I don't think scum would be able to maintain a clear chronology of their feelings. As in, scum can and would fake emotions but would probably not clearly remember what emotion they faked a week ago.

Unfortunately this means I have almost all town or null reads

This was the second or third post that Ofrhz made saying that Sajj using AtE is not a reason to town read her.
But he is town reading her.
So why is he undermining his town read? feels scummy

That was not your original point at all, though. Originally you have said that I have planned fits in scum PT.

Yeah that was my original point, but I went back and skimmed through the threads to find examples, I realized I was just misreading. Out of the examples I could find, I'm not sure if you were acting or just being really frustrated. For example, in that post I linked in the game thread wasn't mentioned in the scum thread, so I don't have any evidence it was planned. That's why I said in my last post that you were probably just genuinely pissed off there. Another point of confusion for me originally was that in the scum thread, you said you wanted to pick a fight (which I originally thought meant "act like you're mad") multiple times, but I went to find the post in the game thread and I think you just meant you were going to argue against what someone else had said.

this type of admission feels townie

If you want to bring arguments from my only other game and present them here you will have to do your homework and read everything (or enough) to prove it.

My argument is that you can be dramatic/emotional/whatever as scum. As that post has demonstrated. So being emotional here doesn't mean you're town (skitter seems to think it is).

This is a change from my original argument, which was that you're pretending to be dramatic. I'm no longer trying to argue this because, as I just explained, I misread your posts from that game. So no, I no longer have to prove this.

Still undercutting his town read

If you want to bring arguments from my only other game and present them here you will have to do your homework and read everything (or enough) to prove it.

My argument is that you can be dramatic/emotional/whatever as scum. As that post has demonstrated. So being emotional here doesn't mean you're town (skitter seems to think it is).

This is a change from my original argument, which was that you're pretending to be dramatic. I'm no longer trying to argue this because, as I just explained, I misread your posts from that game. So no, I no longer have to prove this.

You know what, I think I know what you were trying to say now. Yeah I agree, I could have been more clear when I changed my argument. (is this what you were saying?)

Being agreeable like this is pro-town, but is probably more likely to come from rand!scum than rand!town. I don't know enough about Ofrhz to say this is AI or not

unannounced L-1??

Huh, I don't know how I missed the fact that this vote was unannounced originally.

Huh. Another example of Ofrhz seeing something scummy and then never really following up

way over confident. backpedaling.

once again moving on to the lynch option that he sees most possible

and apologizing to everyone that he needs on his side. It almost seems like too blatant of manipulation but I am 100% okay with lynching him today. Gonna get fully caught up first so I can see progression and votecount but yeah. Even if he's town we will get good info. I initially put too much stock into his game-solving ability, I think.

I agree with the bolded part.

Undercutting his town read, again.
Seeing something as scummy but not following up on it, again.

In 245, something is not true = something is a lie.

This isn't even relevant to the game anymore, but I feel like I have to explain this. No, when I said "this is not true," I meant to say "you're mistaken." This is different from accusing you of lying, because being "mistaken" means unintentional whereas "lying" implies intent. Anyway, here's to not misunderstanding each other moving forward.

Same point as before about being agreeable and it maybe being AI but maybe not.
Also, why bring it up if it's not relevant to the game? hrmm. Not sure if this is scummy but it is weird.

Northsidegal- what are your thoughts on Oxy?

Maybe the start of a follow up? Will wait and see.

[Scioness Sajj]

...okay

[Oxy]

He first voted you by poe than engaged and found you super scummy. When I asked him why he is scumreading you he quoted all the things after the vote.
Nothing before that in his iso hints that he was scumreading you. It reminded me how he first freaked out and voted me and started that big push.

this is a misrep. I pushed skitter at the end of D1 partly for poe, and very much in part due to her post drixx wagon interactions with me and others

[Scioness Sajj]

1978 feels off, I will have to reread that when I'm home

[Scioness Sajj]

And then D2 you have dropped that even said something about skitter being most likely town iirc

[Scioness Sajj]

btw its not a misrep because im talking about your d2.

[Scioness Sajj]

I was saying earlier that his interactions with the ofrhz wagon are weird. Like his conviction to vote ofrhz feels ... 'halfhearted' might be a good term?

And since oxy was saying till just now that ofrhz is my best partner and your best partner it's weird?

idk I will have to reread that part, I don't really remember oxy i was focusing on ruru and ofrhz

yeah it is, but what do you think it means?

[Oxy]

Taking another break. Basically, through D1 Ofrhz has a subset of scummy posts that I've outlined, a few very townie posts surrounding the drixx wagon, and a whole lot of posts that are logically consistent with his positions, and which show some level of game analysis.

I would love to hear some thoughts from ruru and nsg especially, but all are welcome of course

Spoiler:

At this point, Drixx and NSG are my top two lynch priorities. I'm just kind of confused why NSG is preferred over Drixx. At least nsg gave a readlist. Drixx has so far only talked about one person, which is seriously detrimental going into the next day of the game. Maybe two people if you count his reaction test on me.

Where did the ruru scum read go? This is after he forgot why he was town reading ruru and then voted her for pushing skitter. Last mention of ruru was in 755 and heavily implied he still scum read her

hi, since a lot of people are townreading me, I'm going to let them find posts as to why I'm town.

This pinged me so hard when I first read it. It's too self aware. Feels very scummy.

Scioness voted ruru when ruru wasn't really at the top of anyone's hit list except mine (and I wasn't voting ruru at the time, in fact I had just unvoted ruru). That's an incredibly risky thing to do for scum to throw their partner under the bus out of the blue like that. And earlier today, Scioness said she still wants to focus ruru on D2, so I'm thinking this focus isn't just for show.

Ofc, I expect everyone to focus ruru D2

Rip our fearless leader

VOTE: Scioness Sajj

Actually no, I think the Drixx Lynch could have been entirely town motivated.

VOTE: ruru

I know that there is a night phase in between these but it still feels weird as hell. The first and second quote imply that scioness isn't scum. The 4th vote implies that he has about faced on this during the night phase, but the quick flip back implies that his analysis is being done on the fly.

[Oxy]

oops, rip spoiler. sorry. At least it wasn't one of the longer ones ;P

[skitter30]

@scioness: what do you think about the fact oxy and ofrzh are telling me you pocketed me?

[skitter30]

My gut started pinging me around the time I made that post with yellow writing inserted into your quote explaining how your quote was scum. Take a look at my ISO from then onward.

I mean, you're still either scum or wrong headed this game, and I believe every argument I've made from D1 onward as to why I would expect differently from you, and why your posts are scummy.

But the gut is saying something feels off, and the only way I understand your unvote from the first drixx wagon is if your partner is already on the wagon and you don't want to have an early lynch with both scum voting on the lynch. This implies Skitter + Ofrhz and Skitter + ruru

Ok I checked the timeline and that adds up actually.

I probably unvoted, cuz, you know, I don't believe in keeping people at L-1 for pressure when they've proven they aren't really present.

I still think that wagon built suspiciously fast though.

I really don't know where scum is right now.

[Scioness Sajj]

@scioness: what do you think about the fact oxy and ofrzh are telling me you pocketed me?

I think you have mentioned the pocketing thing first. So I don't really see it as something coming from them.
Especially ofrhz, he also did grab ruru's argument about my nk question. But that's all he has been doing recently. He had a scumread on me earlier today then dropped it and goes back at it because oxy prompted him to.
I feel like oxy will jump on anything that can result in lynching me.

[Oxy]

@skitter that line about understanding your unvote if your partner is on the wagon is when I'm trying to understand the wagon from the perspective of scum!skitter. Yeah, I can see other reasons for a town!skitter to unvote, and I've never argued otherwise.

[ofrhz]

@scioness- I’ve already explained my reaction to your nk question.
???? I thought skitter was scum for a bit based on her Oxy vote
I tried to change my scumhunting strategy to look for people who are most scummy instead of associations, which I’ve said before
I’ve been pointing out things that pinged me throughout the day, e.g. your reaction to that ruru post you thought came from town

Don’t call out others for misrep if all of your analysis is based on the same thing

[ofrhz]

I feel like oxy will jump on anything that can result in lynching me.

Another example of you dismissing certain people in this game

[ofrhz]

i think he just hates me that much?

And this. Nobody is hate-lynching you

[Scioness Sajj]

@scioness- I’ve already explained my reaction to your nk question.
???? I thought skitter was scum for a bit based on her Oxy vote
I tried to change my scumhunting strategy to look for people who are most scummy instead of associations, which I’ve said before
I’ve been pointing out things that pinged me throughout the day, e.g. your reaction to that ruru post you thought came from town

Don’t call out others for misrep if all of your analysis is based on the same thing

what are you talking about lol

[Scioness Sajj]

I feel like oxy will jump on anything that can result in lynching me.

Another example of you dismissing certain people in this game

i think he just hates me that much?

And this. Nobody is hate-lynching you

[ofrhz]

You’re capable of reading

[Scioness Sajj]

for above lol

I never dismissed Oxy? I have been talking with him about different game related things.

I mean I have yet to see an argument from oxy as to why he thinks I'm scummy? He is on and off me the whole game, never made a case after the first failure he said he was reevaluating but never really posted any thoughts he had about me or even when the reevaluations has ended. So yes I think it is a tunnel.

Like what are you trying to prove here? That poeple have weak arguments that I'm scum and I'm tired of overexplaning everything? Yeah sure that's true.

[Scioness Sajj]

I don't think you are lol