Hydra Mafia (Day 4, I can't think of a clever title!)

[Faranor]

I also think PP's "town-tells" in posts 172/173 are scummy. I see no reason town would go and call three people town like that, except in a sort of find-scum-by-elimination-thing.

VOTE: Professor Paradox

SO there's no reason but an actual very valid reason, which makes it vote worthy. Herp a derp a fucking derp wat.

[bv311]

BV's second head checking in. All I've really done so far on this account, is change the avatar way back when you guys first started complaining.

Here's my piece on PP/meta in general/VI's/chicken sandwiches:

I'll start by saying, we aren't claiming heads. Or at least this particular head isn't, and I'm positive my partner feels the same. This head doesn't put much stock into meta, I feel it acts as more of a deterrent at the best of times, a massive wifom jungleheadfuck at others. This being said, I will allow that the reason I don't find scum-motivation for the whole PP fake-nameclaim, is because it sounds exactly like something Elli would do. Pacman's "it was my partner's idea" is scummy though.

Side note- Another reason I don't support nameclaim this game is exactly the reason other people do. I do not want to be able to tell who exactly it is I'm playing guess...I like the concept of completely erasing my preconceived notions about individuals. I feel like it will aid my scumhunting attempts rather than hinder. Removes bias.

Comments while reading Bowser:

I don't find the vote, or the FoS in RVS to be odd. I do find the combination of the two to be overanxious, and a possible scumgambit ("Everyone knows scum tries to get away from attention, let's draw it to us!")
Also, if it's a joke FoS, why the need to explain the reasoning behind it, how that has now changed, and then add an UnFoS?
Ok, so now FoS is relevant, yet this one was a joke...in the first post of RVS (before the game has even really begun). The motives behind all of this are simply confusing, and you seem to be doing a good deal of backtracking to try and cover it up.
CSL promising not to act like a VI....and then acting like one.
The "stop acting like day 1" brilliance.
OK, IceCream brings up the same point I had. Here's a question you still haven't explained: if it's dumb, and you acknowledge it was dumb, why do it? Shits and giggles? Better yet, where's the town motivation?
Also, did you really need the whole comment block for the two lines of response? Cluttering up the thread. Fluff. Etc.

Anti-town action= check
fluff=check
active lurking=check
lack of scumhunting=check

Vote?

vote: bowser

Check.

[Mr Smith]

HEY I HAVEN'T REALLY SAID THAT I'M ELLI YET.
OOOOOOOOOOOYAH.
But I am. >.>

I wouldn't put it past Ellibereth to do something silly like that as scum, to be honest.
However, both me and myko think that PP's 2nd head is not Ellibereth, and the head is lying AGAIN.

First line is correct, decided to do this before we got role.
But i'm curious why you guys don't think I'm me.

We actually did right from the start, but messed our notes up then We believe you. (and I'm mad at myself for believing your initial fakeclaim because my notes were messed up.)

[IceCream]

I thought it was pretty clear. When you say in the middle of an argument "I don't like this recent post from side B. I'll be watching this, no more comment for now." it doesn't come across to me as stemming from "A vs. B is probably town-town, but I don't want to take sides/taint this exchange."

First, that's not what I said at all. I said I'm taking note of the conversation. Second, it was more for the benefit of my other head seeing as we aren't anywhere close to being in the same timezone so communication is hard.

Your scumdar is in need of maintenance. The issue is not the questions. The issue is that in the post the questions were asked T&J did not answer them. It leads to two options –

1. If the questions are indeed useful for providing solid game information why did T&J not answer them when originally asked, or even later?
2. If the questions aren’t useful why even ask them? That would be a pure fluffing post then.

Ok, this is valid, especially the "answer them later" bit.

[IceCream]

The above:

~Cream

[TomAndJerry]

What type of tell is it that he claimed to be you?

The whole claiming thing is null, especially judging from Elli's character in the thread. His latest reactions seem pretty pro town and match with his character. I do want to know why Pacman didn't explain the getting reads reasoning in his first post, and why he answered first instead of Ellibereth.

PP fake claiming does nothing but throw confusion into the town

Eh dude, I don't see any confusion? The time period for posting this type of comment doesn't make sense. Looks like mudslinging to me.

@Master Spy and Chimaira

Why is it so important for me to answer my questions? I thought it was fairly obvious now that it was a part of my trap to lull Prof into reacting. A combo of being lazy and not thinking it was that important at the time was a part of not answering the questions.

1. If the questions are indeed useful for providing solid game information why did T&J not answer them when originally asked, or even later?
2. If the questions aren’t useful why even ask them? That would be a pure fluffing post then.

1. This is shit and you know it, I figured it was standard procedure to ask questions and not answer them until the end because it can influence people's responses. Later it wasn't even that important because I just went right on ahead with the nameclaim, but hey if you wish I shall answer them.

2. I take it you missed the whole entire part where I called Prof out for lying?

Lat has revealed that Professor Paradox fake-claimed one of it’s heads for lulz. This was a direct attempt to provide false information to Town in a way that would possibly interfere with Meta efforts by some players who favor meta. This has a similar effect to Hydra’s withholding who their heads are.

Cool.

Can you explain how calling them out for lying AND then outing them with a nameclaim fits the misinformation persona?

Can you explain how those observations at the end are inconsistent?

This post wasn't about scumhunting, this post to make sure we know Pacman is ubertown. And I don't like it at all.

??????? How does it do that, it's more of a shit I'm screwed please forgive me type of post, not oh look guys im so pro town and scum hunting. He'd probably put a serious vote down if that's what he was going for.

[TomAndJerry]

1. Lateralus + ? - Fairly straightforward, it's easier to keep track of the names for those who do out their name and it's a big topic of the game so far.
2. Neither, absolutes aren't good. Lying is dependent on situation and lurking should be pointed out and then they should be pushed into posting content in the thread. - It's good to know ahead of time that if someone doesn't like lying, they probably won't do it themselves for no reason. If someone says they don't like lurking, they better have a good reason for doing it themselves if they do.
3. Not really - It's a big topic of this game.

4. IIRC it would have been prof at the time of this posted but my opinion of him has changed since then. Pineapple's response makes me less worried about him so I'd say Bowser as of now. Being active yet lurking in this game when the attention's on you? Not cool. - Just a question to get the game moving.

5. GTM -5 IIRC (I'm bad with timezones) and I should be posting one or twice a day, my activity may shift back and forth depending on rl situations.

6. Well, I can tell you it's not Mason. It's VT atm, being town's more fun because of the investigative aspect of it. I think being a cop would be pretty fun if I got the chance though. - This was the most important question for me to ask as it would expose Prof's lie. I tried to not be so obvious so I snuck in those other questions, which really are nice to know to I guess but not terribly important since this game did have some action earlier. I was worried that he might actually research my slot so I probably would have asked him some personal questions later or asked about his tone of posting if he had responded. I actually didn't expect to get backlash for my lying attack since it was obvious to me.

@Pineapple

I'm glad that you actually did have some reasoning for your vote but why didn't you say this before earlier?

Eh my partner told me he doesn't have too much to say, I discussed some of my thoughts with him so hopefully he'll respond and be more active.

~Tom

[TomAndJerry]

Both posts are Tom btw, I didn't sign one of them.

[Crab Canon]

From a scum perspective they know their own members and thus know what players out there are most likely to be dangerous to them. As an example – Sotty was able to more or less nail Zachrulez in /invitiational 8 simply because she knew his playstyle so well. Scum are going to know those players who can read them as scum the best, if those players exist in the game. So going for a full name-claim lays the information out there.

1) Scum have already probably figured out who everyone is based on slips at this point. They had much less of the player list to figure out from the start, so leveling the playing field is a good thing. More information for town is a good thing. 2) The situation of Sotty figuring out Zach is essentially irrelevant since they are MARRIED in real life and know each other better than almost any two other scummers on this board could. I'm sure if I lived with someone I could tell if they were lying right away too. Plus Zach has a fairly distinctive scum style.

A Town protective role, on the other hand, has no inside knowledge. God forbid if they choose to defend a ‘Vet’ Hydra based on being the heads being vets as opposed to Town play and that Hydra is Mafia.

This is false because scum would have just as much incentive to kill a townie playing hydra as they would a Vet hydra. Being old to MS does not mean you're scumhunting well automatically. At least your vote is in a good spot.

Logically Town players who were strongly for outing of heads should see PP’s actions as equally Anti-Town / Scummy.

I see them as anti-town, but see little to no scum motivation for acting like an idiot.

Chimaira's vote post 188 is ridiculous. 'I see no town reason for doing it, therefore it's a scum reason.' False dichotomy is false.

I think Faranor sums it up well:

Herp a derp a fucking derp wat.

I like you, man. You're crazy, but I like you

First, that's not what I said at all. I said I'm taking note of the conversation. Second, it was more for the benefit of my other head seeing as we aren't anywhere close to being in the same timezone so communication is hard.

Ah, the old timezones effing with your QT. That makes sense.

A combo of being lazy and not thinking it was that important at the time was a part of not answering the questions.

I figured it was standard procedure to ask questions and not answer them until the end because it can influence people's responses. Later it wasn't even that important because I just went right on ahead with the nameclaim, but hey if you wish I shall answer them.

Which is it? Both?


This game is way too schizo and has too many talking points that aren't going anywhere solid at the moment. More severe grilling of the scummiest people, less arguing about anti-town things. Please.

[TomAndJerry]

Yeah, do you think those opinions conflict?

[Crab Canon]

Not really. Just trying to be clear so I understand better.

[nopointinactingup]

I thought it was pretty clear. When you say in the middle of an argument "I don't like this recent post from side B. I'll be watching this, no more comment for now." it doesn't come across to me as stemming from "A vs. B is probably town-town, but I don't want to take sides/taint this exchange."

Liking someone's argument or not doesn't necessarily correlate with thinking someone is town or not.

Also, I don't really care for IceCream's "my other head did it, don't blame me!" mentality. Very scummy excuse making. Smith is claiming this same action from PP, though if I was in a hydra with Ellibereth I'd be pretty annoyed at his shenanigans as well...so I guess I'd be mildly more forgiving of that. That being said, it needs to stop from everyone. Take accountability for everything your hydra says or be lynched.

Please mention us seperately. I don't think I did that anywhere. I even answered accusations against Cream.

I am not going to nameclaim. For me the fun of the game is not knowing each other.
but there is absolutely no town reason I could see for fakeclaiming. the only times I have seen someone fakeclaim something (I'm not talking about roles here, of course) they were scum.

Chimaira is town.

what makes you think that?

I also think PP's "town-tells" in posts 172/173 are scummy. I see no reason town would go and call three people town like that, except in a sort of find-scum-by-elimination-thing.

VOTE: Professor Paradox

I don't think scum would call a plethora of people town for no reason. What benefit do you think a scum would gain from that?

[IceCream]

... Fuk.
I think it's sooner or later that we all reveal our names.

~Ice

[Mr Smith]

I don't think scum would call a plethora of people town for no reason. What benefit do you think a scum would gain from that?

buddying, seeming like they are scumhunting while town has a horrible memory for townlists, and avoiding to lie. So lets lynch PP.

I can also tell you why accidentaly revealing your real name is slightly protown, but scum would abuse that, wouldn't they?

[MasterSpy]

Why is it so important for me to answer my questions?

I thought it was fairly obvious now that it was a part of my trap to lull Prof into reacting.

A combo of being lazy and not thinking it was that important at the time was a part of not answering the questions.

Your list of questions was part of an obvious trap to get Prof. Paradox to react? Color me confused – why didn’t you specifically address PP on the issue then as opposed to making it a general topic. I saw the list as a way to gather information that might be Town useful from everybody.

1. This is shit and you know it, I figured it was standard procedure to ask questions and not answer them until the end because it can influence people's responses. Later it wasn't even that important because I just went right on ahead with the nameclaim, but hey if you wish I shall answer them.

2. I take it you missed the whole entire part where I called Prof out for lying?

1. The standard procedure about not answering questions as to not ‘influence’ answers is bullshit. There is nothing in that question set, if it was intended to gather information and not as part of some ‘Cunning Tarp’, that necessitated you withholding your information til after everyone answered.

2. No, I saw that. It was far from clear to me that the whole point of the questions was your ‘Cunning Tarp’.

Cool.

Can you explain how calling them out for lying AND then outing them with a nameclaim fits the misinformation persona?

Can you explain how those observations at the end are inconsistent?

Now it’s my turn to say – I guess you missed the point of the statement that it was aimed at Professor Paradox misleading Town and not you.

Not sure if your second question is even relevant given that information.

This post wasn't about scumhunting, this post to make sure we know Pacman is ubertown. And I don't like it at all.

??????? How does it do that, it's more of a shit I'm screwed please forgive me type of post, not oh look guys im so pro town and scum hunting. He'd probably put a serious vote down if that's what he was going for.

Hey it would be even better if you asked the person who ACTUALLY SAID THAT as opposed to me. Just saying.

1) Scum have already probably figured out who everyone is based on slips at this point. They had much less of the player list to figure out from the start, so leveling the playing field is a good thing. More information for town is a good thing.

For your statement to be true (based on my own notes) scum have to be significantly in a group of 3 Hydras (Chim, bv311, T&J) that at this point are unknown. Unless of course you can tell from post styles who those players are.

But if you are implying you have everything vetted out feel free to post your conclusions. That would be in line with giving Town more information, correct?

This is false because scum would have just as much incentive to kill a townie playing hydra as they would a Vet hydra. Being old to MS does not mean you're scumhunting well automatically.

So are arguing against my theory that Docs should just protect the Hydras they feel are playing the most Pro-Town as opposed to based on name recognition? I’m confused because it looks like you are trying to assert the same thing as I am.

~ The Black Spy

[Pineapple]

Hi, the inactive head (from now on and until I'm outed "Apple") is back. Stupid notification system, and stupid me.

Also why have you avoided doing either?

The game hadn't started yet.

I prefer Lynch all Policy Lynchers.

So why don't you vote yourself? Or realize the contradiction and retreat the statement?

Second it doesn't make sense for you as an individual not to scum hunt because you've posted multiple times in first person (I).

We had agreed that we'd post in singular, ignoring that we're a hydra. But since Narsis has dropped this posting style, I'll do the same.

The last line of one of you're earlier posts where you said you had no reads or something, I'll go find it.

One head might've had no reads while the other had. Also, reads change over time. This post is telling a valid statement a contradiction. —Apple

[Professor Paradox]

Chimaira is town.

what makes you think that?

The last line of one of you're earlier posts where you said you had no reads or something, I'll go find it.

[Professor Paradox]

Picking that Fara line out of everything is really wierd.

[Professor Paradox]

And I think I saw Bowser still posting elsewhere...

[Pineapple]

Picking that Fara line out of everything is really wierd.

I just commented on random stuff I saw while catching up. If you want me to comment on anything specific, just tell me.

@bv310:

Please post a vote count. —Apple

[bv311]

The number of slip-ups this game is beyond amusing.

I agree with my other head's statements on Bowser.

[Chimaira]

So one half of this hydra is Sotty. Hi. I have made all the posts so far bar one, (the initial vote on PP). I have being having a disagreement with my hydra head over coming out in thread and have reached a comprise, in that I just won't tell who my other half is. I prefer to just be as open as possible, they want to play it a different way, cool by me. This is another reason I haven't really settled into this game yet, but hopefully now we have reached a settlement I can just plow away.

Anticipating the next question, no Oj, I'm not scum. Cross my heart.

= = = = = = =

The last line of one of you're earlier posts where you said you had no reads or something, I'll go find it.
What's wrong with calling 3 people town?
Have you ever played with me (Ellibereth) before?

That's cause this post was made by my other head. We are having this discussion in our hydra QT (town reads)so I will highlight this to make sure they come and answer you.

I don't actually remember if I have played with you before Elli. I initially typed in yes but then I couldn't remember any specific games. I think I am just familiar with your meta because you have played a few games with my other half in real life (Zachrulez)

Fakenameclaim was for fun.
Reactions would have just been side effect.
I don't think there's anything anti-town about it, the few short moments of confusion is easily cleared up.
As for analyzing the reactions...other than T/J town I'll let other people do those for now... >.>

It was your gambit, you need to do the leg work. You're right about the confusion being easily cleared up but I don't see you building any reads off this. One, without explanation isn't quite cutting it.

= = = = = =

@Master Spy and Chimaira

Why is it so important for me to answer my questions? I thought it was fairly obvious now that it was a part of my trap to lull Prof into reacting. A combo of being lazy and not thinking it was that important at the time was a part of not answering the questions.

Wait, what? You posted those questions as a specific trap for PP to fake claim? Or as a general trap?

If it is the latter, how did you know that would be PP's reaction? If it is the former explain to me how those questions work as a trap. I also want to know the results of said trap.

= = = = =

From a scum perspective they know their own members and thus know what players out there are most likely to be dangerous to them. As an example – Sotty was able to more or less nail Zachrulez in /invitiational 8 simply because she knew his playstyle so well. Scum are going to know those players who can read them as scum the best, if those players exist in the game. So going for a full name-claim lays the information out there.

1) Scum have already probably figured out who everyone is based on slips at this point. They had much less of the player list to figure out from the start, so leveling the playing field is a good thing. More information for town is a good thing. 2) The situation of Sotty figuring out Zach is essentially irrelevant since they are MARRIED in real life and know each other better than almost any two other scummers on this board could. I'm sure if I lived with someone I could tell if they were lying right away too. Plus Zach has a fairly distinctive scum style.

I agree with Crab here.

I mean, there are only one player on this board I am extremely comfortable to vote for on meta alone, that's Zach. With anyone else, meta will play a role, but not a huge one. I don't think many players could claim knowledge of meta about another that I can claim with Zach. I don't try and pass that off on other players either.

= = = = = =

Okay so I have a situation.

I see a few people questioning my partner calling people town is a scum tell. I didn't agree with his post and told him so but I'm not going to come in here and scream blue bloody murder about it simply because I hate it when hydra heads disagree. As a player I throw out town and scum reads a lot so this is an awkward place for me to be in.

I will say my QT buddy said that this is his experience of people doing it. So I assume he has meta to back it up. I can't really say much more in defense of them just that I don't think they have a ton of experience, especially with some of the players on this list.

So yeah, my buddy will have to come in here and explain himself. We're not ignoring this, but this is why I can't answer these questions. I will bug them until they do however.

[Faranor]

Hi, the inactive head (from now on and until I'm outed "Apple") is back. Stupid notification system, and stupid me.

Also why have you avoided doing either?

The game hadn't started yet.

I prefer Lynch all Policy Lynchers.

So why don't you vote yourself? Or realize the contradiction and retreat the statement?

Second it doesn't make sense for you as an individual not to scum hunt because you've posted multiple times in first person (I).

We had agreed that we'd post in singular, ignoring that we're a hydra. But since Narsis has dropped this posting style, I'll do the same.

The last line of one of you're earlier posts where you said you had no reads or something, I'll go find it.

One head might've had no reads while the other had. Also, reads change over time. This post is telling a valid statement a contradiction. —Apple

UNVOTE VOTE PINEAPPLE

[Pineapple]

On a related note, this was completely ignored:

you misunderstand. we do need to scum hunt.

I realize we need to scumhunt. My point is that you were making excuses about why you couldn't scumhunt yet by saying that other people needed to first. Then I asked if this was a prerequisite to your scumhunting and you said no. I don't understand why you needed other people to scum hunt first then. You said that the meta discussion was getting in the way of your scumhunting, why is that?

sorry we missed that.

the meta discussion clutters up the thread and makes it more difficult to follow the actual scumhunting. it's not an excuse for us to not scum hunt, we still should, but it doesnt help us scum hunt either.

you misunderstand. we do need to scum hunt.

Then why are you instead playing a very passive, reactionary game?

there really isnt an excuse for it. i just do. although having my partner back should help. —Narsis
Except playing a "very passive, reactionary game" is part of my meta, too. But we'll try to scumhunt more from now on. —Apple

UNVOTE VOTE PINEAPPLE

care to explain?

[bv310]

This space reserved for an eventual vote count.