Minvitational 6 - The Honeymoon Cruise - Over!


Forum rules
User avatar
MMCL
MMCL
Lord of the Rings
User avatar
User avatar
MMCL
Lord of the Rings
Lord of the Rings
Posts: 1237
Joined: March 19, 2004
Location: KL, UK
Contact:

Post Post #200 (ISO) » Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:54 am

Post by MMCL »

Maxy Maxy Maxy :)
User avatar
Phoebus
Phoebus
Hall Monitor
User avatar
User avatar
Phoebus
Hall Monitor
Hall Monitor
Posts: 3743
Joined: October 19, 2003

Post Post #201 (ISO) » Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:59 am

Post by Phoebus »

Vote count:


1 halfpint (Maximumum)
1 Jaguar (MMCL)
1 MMCL (Werebear)
1 mneme (Mackay)
4 Maximumum (Jaguar, mneme, PeaceBringer, Seol)


1 not voting: halfpint


5 to lynch



I'll try and prod Maxi. She's been having trouble finding time to get on.
Your happiness is intertwined with your outlook on life.
User avatar
Maximumum
Maximumum
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Maximumum
Goon
Goon
Posts: 537
Joined: November 15, 2004

Post Post #202 (ISO) » Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:13 pm

Post by Maximumum »

Sorry, folks. :( I'm not intentionally ignoring you.

People have been saying that my defense posts were not acceptable, that's fine. If I knew exactly what I need to defend myself against I will do so. As far as I can see Seol as come up with an argument that I was trying to distance myself from LML. That certainly wasn't my intention in the post he pointed out.

I suppose since I'm one away from lynch I'll claim, but I was hoping I wouldn't have to since Phoebus gave me a role that it WAY out there. I'm an alien on Earth to observe humanity. I have no real power unless a power is used on me the night before. I absorb that power and can use it the next night. Apparently, so far noone has used a power on me because I haven't been able to do anything yet. I can't absorb the power to kill because I'd be dead, right?

So, unless someone uses a power on me I'm pretty useless. That doesn't mean that I want you to lynch me...but at this point it's not a great loss I suppose.
[i]Nothing says lovin' like something from the oven![/i]
User avatar
MMCL
MMCL
Lord of the Rings
User avatar
User avatar
MMCL
Lord of the Rings
Lord of the Rings
Posts: 1237
Joined: March 19, 2004
Location: KL, UK
Contact:

Post Post #203 (ISO) » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:51 pm

Post by MMCL »

I cant confirm that claim - eg If I have a power in this game, I have not used it on Max.
User avatar
Seol
Seol
Logical Rampage
User avatar
User avatar
Seol
Logical Rampage
Logical Rampage
Posts: 1563
Joined: November 26, 2004
Location: In the wrong

Post Post #204 (ISO) » Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:50 am

Post by Seol »

Initial reaction: Hey, that's easily confirmable!

Second reaction: Only by outing a power-role. :x

Breaking down that claim:

1: Currently, it amounts to "vanilla townie"
2: I've used it before as a mod (Blue Mage in Final Fantasy mini) and in minis, it's just too slow-acting to be useful, so the potential to be more than that is minimal.
3: The effect of the claim today is "can a power role please target me then claim tomorrow". Attempting to confirm Max is definitely not a good idea.

I'm happy with the vote on Maximumum.
[i]The hungry maw of Twilight snaps, but shall not have its fill,
Until one man hangs by his neck, by half this curs'd town's will[/i]
User avatar
MMCL
MMCL
Lord of the Rings
User avatar
User avatar
MMCL
Lord of the Rings
Lord of the Rings
Posts: 1237
Joined: March 19, 2004
Location: KL, UK
Contact:

Post Post #205 (ISO) » Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:58 am

Post by MMCL »

Weekends are often slow - either way Im not changing my vote.
User avatar
Mackay
Mackay
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Mackay
Goon
Goon
Posts: 280
Joined: June 16, 2002
Location: Griffith, NSW, Australia

Post Post #206 (ISO) » Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:12 am

Post by Mackay »

Hmmmm....

The tone of the claim feels sincere, and the claim itself is crazy enough that it seems believable. I can certainly imagine Phoebus putting an alien on a honeymoon cruise...
..but still, I'm not so sure I believe it, though admittedly the only insight into the setup I've got at the moment is the roles of those dead, and my own. Nonetheless, I am dubious on a purely logical level.

I'm not certain enough to put on a lynching vote, though. Not
yet
anyway. Sorry folks. mneme can keep it for now.
Seol wrote:3: The effect of the claim today is "can a power role please target me then claim tomorrow". Attempting to confirm Max is definitely not a good idea.
One thing about this is, if a power role does target Max, I think she should come straight out with it (though I'd not recommend actively trying to confirm her, no). That way, if/when our power roles do come out, it may be confirmable later on. If the town lets her live that long. :-P
- Mackay
User avatar
MMCL
MMCL
Lord of the Rings
User avatar
User avatar
MMCL
Lord of the Rings
Lord of the Rings
Posts: 1237
Joined: March 19, 2004
Location: KL, UK
Contact:

Post Post #207 (ISO) » Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:59 am

Post by MMCL »

Actually... quick question... what if more than one role targets Max? Does she gain multiple powers?
User avatar
Maximumum
Maximumum
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Maximumum
Goon
Goon
Posts: 537
Joined: November 15, 2004

Post Post #208 (ISO) » Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:54 pm

Post by Maximumum »

According to the role email, if more than one person use their power on me I have to choose which I want to use the next night. I can't do two things.

I don't recommend trying to confirm my role by having a power role use their night choice on me, even though it would confirm what I'm saying. I can't think of anyway that my role could be confirmed without having someone else's role come out in the process. Frankly, I don't think my role is important enough to do that. If anyone can make a plan that wouldn't involve handing over information to the mafia than I'm all for it.

Otherwise, I will endorse this lynch on the basis that it will give the scum less info to work with. Oh, and I LOVE being an alien and I bless Phoebus for letting me be one...even if it is the non-violent, non-invading type ;)
[i]Nothing says lovin' like something from the oven![/i]
User avatar
MMCL
MMCL
Lord of the Rings
User avatar
User avatar
MMCL
Lord of the Rings
Lord of the Rings
Posts: 1237
Joined: March 19, 2004
Location: KL, UK
Contact:

Post Post #209 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:38 am

Post by MMCL »

Can all remaining players at least confirm that Max hasn't been targetted?
User avatar
Mackay
Mackay
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Mackay
Goon
Goon
Posts: 280
Joined: June 16, 2002
Location: Griffith, NSW, Australia

Post Post #210 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2005 2:03 am

Post by Mackay »

I think that saying "I have not targeted Max" does not actually give any information on whether the person has a role capable of targeting, =) so I will say that I have not targeted Max.
- Mackay
User avatar
Jaguar
Jaguar
The real dogmatix
User avatar
User avatar
Jaguar
The real dogmatix
The real dogmatix
Posts: 887
Joined: January 23, 2004
Location: First the Netherlands, now Canada

Post Post #211 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:24 am

Post by Jaguar »

Along the similar lines, if I have a role with night actions, I haven't used it on Maximumum. Not sure what to do with this claim. It is a Phoebus game and everything is possible... But an alien? Perhaps along the lines of Third Rock from the Sun?
I need a new tagline...
User avatar
Seol
Seol
Logical Rampage
User avatar
User avatar
Seol
Logical Rampage
Logical Rampage
Posts: 1563
Joined: November 26, 2004
Location: In the wrong

Post Post #212 (ISO) » Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:32 am

Post by Seol »

What's the point in saying we haven't targetted Maximumum? If we
have
targetted her, sure, because that proves she's lying, but it would just stall the game to wait on a confirmation that we haven't targetted her each.

However, whilst I'm here, I haven't targetted her.
[i]The hungry maw of Twilight snaps, but shall not have its fill,
Until one man hangs by his neck, by half this curs'd town's will[/i]
User avatar
MMCL
MMCL
Lord of the Rings
User avatar
User avatar
MMCL
Lord of the Rings
Lord of the Rings
Posts: 1237
Joined: March 19, 2004
Location: KL, UK
Contact:

Post Post #213 (ISO) » Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:06 am

Post by MMCL »

Since everyone hasn't posted since her claim we can't say either way. Im asking because Im trying to discount certain alternatives.
User avatar
mneme
mneme
emneme mneme mninie mno
User avatar
User avatar
mneme
emneme mneme mninie mno
emneme mneme mninie mno
Posts: 2443
Joined: December 24, 2002
Location: NYC
Contact:

Post Post #214 (ISO) » Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:30 am

Post by mneme »

Here's the problem with "I haven't targetted max:" if someone -has- targetted her, this ends up outing a power role (in exchange for proving her guilty). This is bad -- far more bad than letter her die unconfirmed, especially given the weakness of the described role.

So I'm not going to say whether I've targetted her or not -- not because I have (or haven't), but because I think stating it at all risks too much.
Did I say too much?
User avatar
Seol
Seol
Logical Rampage
User avatar
User avatar
Seol
Logical Rampage
Logical Rampage
Posts: 1563
Joined: November 26, 2004
Location: In the wrong

Post Post #215 (ISO) » Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:08 am

Post by Seol »

mneme wrote:Here's the problem with "I haven't targetted max:" if someone -has- targetted her, this ends up outing a power role (in exchange for proving her guilty). This is bad -- far more bad than letter her die unconfirmed, especially given the weakness of the described role.
Good point. There's an exposure, but we don't learn anything from the process unless someone has targetted her. If someone
has
targetted her, it's still better they don't state that.
[i]The hungry maw of Twilight snaps, but shall not have its fill,
Until one man hangs by his neck, by half this curs'd town's will[/i]
User avatar
mneme
mneme
emneme mneme mninie mno
User avatar
User avatar
mneme
emneme mneme mninie mno
emneme mneme mninie mno
Posts: 2443
Joined: December 24, 2002
Location: NYC
Contact:

Post Post #216 (ISO) » Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:06 am

Post by mneme »

Seol: and if everyone but a few people say "I haven't targetted her", that narrows things down, perhaps too much.
Did I say too much?
User avatar
MMCL
MMCL
Lord of the Rings
User avatar
User avatar
MMCL
Lord of the Rings
Lord of the Rings
Posts: 1237
Joined: March 19, 2004
Location: KL, UK
Contact:

Post Post #217 (ISO) » Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:54 am

Post by MMCL »

We do learn something - we learn that nobody has targetted her, thus verifying part of her claim. In Mafia if you have been targetted by a Doc or Roleblocker, for instance, you have no way of knowing... so if Max is lying she is taking a big risk as she would have no way of knowing IF someone targetted her. If we all confirm that none of us HAS targetted her, then that part of her claim was correct.

The deal is that you aren't considering Max's claim. Max said nobody has targetted her. Think about it...

ALSO...

If you have a active role that requires you to get some feedback after making your selection, eg COP then you wouldn't have gotten feedback if you did target Max - as she absorbed your power. So you can already verify her claim (but she lied - why?) Should you say so? Yes.
If you have a passive role (eg DOC) then you wouldn't have got feedback on targetting her, but you shouldn't say you targetted her.

If someone comes out and says I targetted max and she's lying - we ask the doc (assuming there is one) to protect that person. The following night, we ask a cop to investigate that same person. That way we would know if they are scum and lying, or not.
If the person making the allegation against Max is scum, the cop can then come out (we caught our 2nd baddie), the doc can switch protection to the cop and we are onto a winner.
User avatar
Seol
Seol
Logical Rampage
User avatar
User avatar
Seol
Logical Rampage
Logical Rampage
Posts: 1563
Joined: November 26, 2004
Location: In the wrong

Post Post #218 (ISO) » Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:32 am

Post by Seol »

NO!

That's a load of bullcrap, MMCL.

If everyone says they didn't target her, that proves nothing about her role. It goes absolutely
zero
way towards confirming her. It's also entirely possible that ability goes with a scum, so even if we did confirm her ability, that doesn't prove her alignment.

If someone were to come out and say they targetted Max, WE LYNCH MAX. If she comes up town, we have guaranteed scum the next day. That's a fair trade. However, it would just be easier if that person simply voted Max, since their info would prove she's scum.

In fact, we should just lynch Max either way.
[i]The hungry maw of Twilight snaps, but shall not have its fill,
Until one man hangs by his neck, by half this curs'd town's will[/i]
User avatar
MMCL
MMCL
Lord of the Rings
User avatar
User avatar
MMCL
Lord of the Rings
Lord of the Rings
Posts: 1237
Joined: March 19, 2004
Location: KL, UK
Contact:

Post Post #219 (ISO) » Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:23 pm

Post by MMCL »

It does - it goes to confirm what she has stated.
User avatar
Mackay
Mackay
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Mackay
Goon
Goon
Posts: 280
Joined: June 16, 2002
Location: Griffith, NSW, Australia

Post Post #220 (ISO) » Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:49 pm

Post by Mackay »

mneme wrote:Seol: and if everyone but a few people say "I haven't targetted her", that narrows things down, perhaps too much.
I always thought that a scum-for-power-role exchange was a worthwhile one for the town? If Max is town, then there is no danger of your situation occurring anyway. If she is mafia, and has been targeted, is it not better to out a power role in order to catch a scum for the town?

...I'unno, I just woke up. I can barely see, let alone think logically. But I always thought that that was considered a worthwhile risk. Particularly considering that I think it
unlikely
for Max to have been targeted by a doctor - I reckon if a different role did target her, they should say so and the character who came out will be able to be protected that night (there is no doc on the death list, right?).

I like my vote, I think. You appear to be fighting against the town's gaining any information.
- Mackay
User avatar
MMCL
MMCL
Lord of the Rings
User avatar
User avatar
MMCL
Lord of the Rings
Lord of the Rings
Posts: 1237
Joined: March 19, 2004
Location: KL, UK
Contact:

Post Post #221 (ISO) » Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:31 pm

Post by MMCL »

Yes Mackay… Especially given that we are one scum down already. If Max is not scum, she has no reason to lie (and if she is town and has lied then the age-old 'lynch all liars' rule comes into play).

A game of this size with an SK and Framer out of the way already, is one where the town HAS the advantage _majorly_ and trading a power role for a scum would leave the situation still in the town's court - effectively we would have 7 people left of which one is scum.
If the targetter of Max is not by a doc then (assuming there is a doc) the power role that comes out to indicate that they have targetted Max and that she's lying HAS protection - on that assumption, the scum cannot afford to even consider targetting the outed power role as another night with no kill would be disaster for them.

I am feeling frustrated right now because my original question regarding the targetting of Max is being evaluated and over-evaluated too much... And too much talk often gives scum the things they need for a defense. Combine that with Seol now on a blinkered lynch-Max-crusade and this game could take a worrying turn.

Obviously Seol, you will say that we are lynching Max anyway but how sure are you (in percentage terms) that she is scum?

I am also frustrated because of the following:

•halfpint - come and play
•PeaceBringer - come and play
•WereBear get off your arse and post something (anything?)

Also, Jag - you've been posting more and I'm still voting you. Please give your thoughts - as even when scum, your evaluation is always welcome.
User avatar
Jaguar
Jaguar
The real dogmatix
User avatar
User avatar
Jaguar
The real dogmatix
The real dogmatix
Posts: 887
Joined: January 23, 2004
Location: First the Netherlands, now Canada

Post Post #222 (ISO) » Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:02 am

Post by Jaguar »

mod
: Can you prod halpint and peacebringer? Or find a replacement?

As I said before, I don't know what to think about the claim. It's strange enough to be in the game, but as has been mentioned, it could easily be a scum claim as well as a townie claim.

As for game mechanics, we've got one SK dead and a scum with power role dead. This almost leads me to believe that having another two scum may be overpowering the mafia side, unless all the people in the game have a role of some sort.

Gah, I don't know. And having two people not post is not making this any easier. I still think that Max is a decent target for a lynch, although I still think that Peacebringer is better and will officially point a
FOS at Peacebringer
.

Not losing a member of our party last night has given us a bit of a reprieve and I think that the lynch of Max will give us information either way.
I need a new tagline...
User avatar
Werebear
Werebear
Cursed One
User avatar
User avatar
Werebear
Cursed One
Cursed One
Posts: 1564
Joined: September 20, 2002
Location: Endwell, NY

Post Post #223 (ISO) » Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:55 am

Post by Werebear »

Unvote: MMCL
, bowing to popular opinion. And I see no reason not to lynch Max, next time I post will be to vote them. Which gives you a few days. :?
[color=green]Anyhoo, why is it suspicious that I get confused with a mattress?[/color]
--Wacky, HHGG3 - Life, The Universe, and Everything mafia
User avatar
MMCL
MMCL
Lord of the Rings
User avatar
User avatar
MMCL
Lord of the Rings
Lord of the Rings
Posts: 1237
Joined: March 19, 2004
Location: KL, UK
Contact:

Post Post #224 (ISO) » Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:26 am

Post by MMCL »

OMG - 3 whole sentences :) Welcome Werebear...
Locked