Newbie 1351: Hyrule's Under Attack.. Interesting..-GAME OVER

[fferyllt]

That said, I got a sad-shamed-town feel from Carey's last couple posts before he replaced out. It would take something significant to shake that impression this game day.

[fferyllt]

this seems like you're pushing your town meta on us!! why?

because I was asked.

[fferyllt]

^ then you must link the games that you played as both Scum and Town. Meta is something not to be self explained.

this was meant for fferyllt

Pretty sure I've already linked my completed MS games. They're on my wiki page, too.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=24994 - first MS game, I was scum. It was so much easier playing scum without town meta to drag a round.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=26455 - 2nd MS game, I was town.

[fferyllt]

My opinion on Meta: the act of a player linking his own games itself invalidates the meta just as much as a person describing their own meta. If you really want to get a meta read on someone, it's on you to find games that either confirm or deny your suspicions, not on the subject.

For example, I have scum games where I bus the shit out of my teammates, scum games where I hard defend my teammates, town games where I rape scum and town games where I'm wrong the entire game. I can pick and choose from my game history and tell any story about my own meta I want just by which games I choose to link.

This is very true.

My meta at MS is currently pretty thin on the ground. It is what it is.

[fferyllt]

What's the vote count?

I bet he's at L-1. Good or bad?

[fferyllt]

Also ffs no hammer until he's had a chance to respond to the change of affairs.

[fferyllt]

I'm not sure what to make of fferyll's vote on Z either.

I would compromise lynch Z by the way, but I'm just concerned with the speed of this wagon.

I've had a slow-rolling, slow-rising dis-ease with the AA wagon that kinda came to a head yesterday. I don't like the means by which she defends herself, but it looks I'm not going to like any number of players' styles here. It occurred to me that I've shied away from a hard look at the Fropome/Z slot nearly every time I read one of Z's posts. My Fropome read was stale, and none too strong in the first place, but I've been hanging on to it, maybe in part because I wound up with not much respect for GM's scumdar earlier.

The speed of this wagon, the coalition it represents - 2 people who have each other on their scumlists, and the rather adroit work by VE to break the inertia all bother me for different and to some extent self-cancelling reasons.

[fferyllt]

Despite all this, I want to hear from ff, who can't let go of her townish Fropome read yet still votes Z, and GM who is voting based on Fro before I plan to even consider a Z vote.

And Z himself, but that much is obvious.

p-edit: of course there was a disclaimer!! my mistake.

UNVOTE:

ok...what more do you want?

[fferyllt]

Vis, this game needs moving..
I am okay to shift this wagon to GM if lynching Z is the problem. i haven't changed my reads on both of them

yet

.

Yet?

[fferyllt]

thank god that wasn't a gif.

[fferyllt]

Despite all this, I want to hear from ff, who can't let go of her townish Fropome read yet still votes Z, and GM who is voting based on Fro before I plan to even consider a Z vote.

And Z himself, but that much is obvious.

p-edit: of course there was a disclaimer!! my mistake.

UNVOTE:

ok...what more do you want?

Ha, p-edit was to VE I didn't see nor get notification of it. Strange.

I can see your points though, but I don't think you should disregard GM's reads even if you find her scummy.

I don't have her in my scumpile. Her reads are currently squiffy because of that horrible WoT case she put together to justify a vote on me, all the while yelling "I DON'T DO OMGUS".

This is not a good thing for me to be rehashing btw.

[fferyllt]

damned if I even know what her case on Fropome was. She swears she doesn't do OMGUS and it just happened that the players she thought were scum early on had votes on her.

84 - where she voted. Not much of a case there as far as I can see.

87 - says her vote on the basis of his overreaction to her.

98 - found his post 35 defensive.

170 - where she changed direction and went after me for a while.

182 - I think she considered 182 to be part of her case, because her next post said something about taking a break from case-making

350 - No explanation as to what changed re her read on me, but here she takes her vote off me and puts it back on Fropome

453 - finally here she says something about needing to do a rethink on me(?) though her vote had changed pages earlier

[fferyllt]

Going back through her posts about Fropome is not improving my feelings about being on this bandwagon. So much of what sets me off re GM, AA and Z7 comes down to suboptimal play style. And we

all

have suboptimal play styles.

p-edit I thought her effort on my case was genuine and pretty emotional. I couldn't see a scum player putting that much effort into a large, messy, hole-filled case based almost entirely on putting the worst possible light on a bunch of posts and then throwing them against the wall to see what would stick. A scum player could have made a better, more concise, and tighter case. I don't try to play a super tight game. Being irreproachable is not the point of mafia.

Her case on Fropome was not even that organized IMO.

pp-edit hey, without replacements, I don't think we'd ever complete one of these long-ass games.

[fferyllt]

Do you see any merit to my contention with Mac? He disregarded a large portion of my response to him correcting a point I actually disclaimed in the post in question, but the whole post was fraught with misrepresentations of my play. At first I suspected that he might be townie with latent bias against my slot (much like I'm assuming is happening with Rev pending further content from him) but after completely taking everything I was doing out of context and attacking me for it....that doesn't sit well with me.

Yeah I do see some merit, and it raises some flags I'd lowered a while back tbh. Mac did a follow-on of GM's case which involved what I thought was misrepresentation of some of my posts. He eventually backed off.

[fferyllt]

Vis, this game needs moving..
I am okay to shift this wagon to GM if lynching Z is the problem. i haven't changed my reads on both of them

yet

.

Yet?

btw this kind of hedge pings very loudly to me. Where I grew up playing mafia we eventually lynched that kind of wishy-washiness out of each other.

[fferyllt]

I can't tell you what a relief it is with 2 days to go to be talking with someone who is both making sense and posts more than once every day or 2. This has been one of the most frustrating game days I can recall. Right now, I don't even care what your alignment is. Just having ideas to bounce off is an improvement.

[fferyllt]

Vis, this game needs moving..
I am okay to shift this wagon to GM if lynching Z is the problem. i haven't changed my reads on both of them

yet

.

Yet?

btw this kind of hedge pings very loudly to me. Where I grew up playing mafia we eventually lynched that kind of wishy-washiness out of each other.

I'm like scouring the thread and I can't find a consolidated case on AA - EU referred to one specific "thing" that AA did or said that "got people on her in the first place", do you know what it is or where I can find it? You mentioned earlier that AA had "given up" or something, was that just referring to activity or did she martyr?

Mostly inactivity. I think the "thing" was AA's insistence that the roles aren't randomly assigned and that there would be (at least? I forget) 1 scum among the SE's/IC. Despite evidence - links to games where both scum were SE/IC and where both scum were among the newbie slots - she wouldn't let go of that idea until the Mod posted that roles are assigned via random.org. She was ready to start scumhunting based on that assumption - who is the scummiest of these 3 and who is the scummiest of those 6. Raised some alarms because of how easily we could mislynch our way to LYLO by clearing everyone else in one of those groups if we did hit scum.

Re "giving up" it was a combination of infrequent posts and a defense that consisted almost entirely of attacking anyone who questioned her or commented negatively about her posts. It seemed like a useless way of getting down from L-2.

[fferyllt]

That was the start of it. At the time I thought it could be a way of posting a lot of shit without actually scumhunting. Once the question of random role assignment was settled, then we went into the what I fondly think of as the "no u" phase of her participation. In her defense, she seems to have developed her reads in the first day or so and with some exceptions has stuck with them.

[fferyllt]

True!

[fferyllt]

Am I chopped liver then? ;_;

The last week or so? What do you think?

I come into this thread 2 or 3 times a day looking for something to sink my teeth into. And all I find are laments about the time slipping away. That and AA.

I think I did her a disservice by calling her posts "giving up".

I include myself in the chopped liver.

[fferyllt]

yabbut we've been waiting around forever for you to show up. Watching paint dry would be high drama after the last week.

[fferyllt]

Vis, this game needs moving..
I am okay to shift this wagon to GM if lynching Z is the problem. i haven't changed my reads on both of them

yet

.

Yet?

btw this kind of hedge pings very loudly to me. Where I grew up playing mafia we eventually lynched that kind of wishy-washiness out of each other.

you're in a different site and people on this site play different.

It's not the words, it's the intent behind them. Of course a town player is going to be open to new evidence unless they've caught a bad case of tunnel-itis. But, town players think about their convictions, reads and intents as they are in the moment, not what they might become in some amorphous future with yet unseen and unanticipated evidence.

[fferyllt]

Fe = Eye Urn

[fferyllt]

Seeing my name in that bandwagon freaks me out.

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE: Z7-852

[fferyllt]

I do not like the VE bandwagon one teensy tinesy bit.

[fferyllt]

VE said L-1 was good enough. I think your vote's misplaced.

[fferyllt]

I think GM is scummier, yes, but I still think VE is her partner. Besides, VE is only at L-2, which is the same as Z, so I'd rather lynch VE than Z.

I'd be willing to switch my vote over to GM if there was any traction there though, voting for her right now feels like voting green party.

Riddle me this. If VE and GM are the scum team, why would VE come into the game and upset the AA9 apple-cart with just over 2 days to go?

[fferyllt]

Warming up to an Eye wagon, actually.

[fferyllt]

I think GM is scummier, yes, but I still think VE is her partner. Besides, VE is only at L-2, which is the same as Z, so I'd rather lynch VE than Z.

I'd be willing to switch my vote over to GM if there was any traction there though, voting for her right now feels like voting green party.

Riddle me this. If VE and GM are the scum team, why would VE come into the game and upset the AA9 apple-cart with just over 2 days to go?

One of the things I have against this GM/VE scum partners theory is that it would've just been easier to lynch AA9, but maybe they're saving her for lynch or lose? (which, if she's town, wouldn't be a bad idea, considering the way she's been playing). OR, it's VE/AA9 and VE just did the save of the game getting AA9 out of the fire.

Why would AA9 have put her vote on her scum partner Carey?

[fferyllt]

Scum do bus each other, but it's pretty stupid to do that on a confused, listless day 1. There are almost always hapless townies flopping around looking scummy to the rest of town, especially in these games where there is such a mix of experience levels and such a mix of mafia cultures.

[fferyllt]

Jesus Christ this game.

[fferyllt]

That's twice AA has jumped onto an L-2 wagon today unless I am misremembering.

[fferyllt]

I'm basically concerned about the same thing re AA. Like I said, putting someone at L-1 TWICE today.

Can someone unvote GM and can we chill out a little until VE has a chance to read the full thread? Whatever his alignment he was a sport for replacing into a 30 page thread with such a short fuse to nightfall.

[fferyllt]

Jesus Christ this game.

i know this would come....

That's twice AA has jumped onto an L-2 wagon today unless I am misremembering.

so, whats your point? i know you're reading the game..so is others.
Isn't the GM and Z7 both are my strong scum reads?

What is your hurry? Afraid town will take off in another direction?

[fferyllt]

Jesus Christ this game.

i know this would come....

That's twice AA has jumped onto an L-2 wagon today unless I am misremembering.

so, whats your point? i know you're reading the game..so is others.
Isn't the GM and Z7 both are my strong scum reads?

What is your hurry? Afraid town will take off in another direction?

I am Town, And any direction that town moves and i ll move along.
And i am afraid of getting lynched. I am very well aware that not all town team will survive to the end, i know that some of us will have to be either mislynched or night killed by mafia, i just didn't want to go down without a fight.

What confusing me about you is that since morning that

you were neither interested nor shown uninterested in any of the wagons today

.
that is not good.

That's patently false. My only question is whether it's intentionally false or you really could read this day's posts and come away with that impression.

[fferyllt]

fine. I love hammering GM anyways....

unvote

I didn't say thank you. Thank you.

[fferyllt]

There for I must conclude that VisceraEyes and goodmorning must be a team (untill I get more information). Currently I'am not willing to lynch anyone else except one of these two.

This is terrible. Your whole post is pretty bad. But if you are scum-pair hunting, that bit right there is terrible. If those two are the scum team then what VE did when he started posting - kick the wheels off the AA9 wagon - was inexplicable from a scum perspective.

[fferyllt]

(#911) Yeah I agree that my post was pretty bad. Too much text to cover and didn't have time to really work on the text. I think VE started the second wagon so that people wouldn't judge him if he would hammervote right away. If you enter a game and just hammervote someone you are quite easily painted as a scum.

I cant really believe that people just keep on dropping from this game. This is completely impossible to play.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < Revenus < Eye urn < Deras < Mac < ArcAngel9 < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

What happened here with a sudden new bandwagon is not at all unusual. The loose consensus that forms about a player can disappear in a heartbeat, and IT IS ALL BUT IMPOSSIBLE TO PREDICT where things will go after that. Your ideas about what scum will do, and that they would want to precipitate a period of chaotic wagon movement when the vote isn't on one of them...is I dunno. Interesting in theory? But pretty disconnected from reality.

[fferyllt]

We have a day and a half unless Tracey give us an extension while she locates a Rev replacement.

VE, have you completed you thread catch-up?

[fferyllt]

Dear God this is awful game. Can you lynch kill me out of this? Not really playing to win conditions but if first day will last over 40 pages then this game will be hell to deal with.

future days will almost certainly be shorter. In some cases much shorter.

[fferyllt]

Short shelf lives, I'll bet.

I reread the first 8-10 pages of the game last night. I came away with a fresh townread from Fropome's posts. I usually do more of a reset when a player replaces into a slot, but with the experiential meta - literally involved as a player or mod in every game he's played so far - reset is just not happening.

[fferyllt]

Need to do another iso on him. My game is largely based on analyzing reactions/interactions that I provoke with other players or that they provoke with me. I was kinda busy slapfighting with GM during much of the early game. Mac snapped into focus when he took up part of her case and voted me. The other thing I remember was him getting bent out of shape after I unvoted AA9 when Carey p much randomly (from my perspective) pushed her to L-1. I get a lot of that crap on MS.

[fferyllt]

80 - Sort of backing up GM here, supporting that early Deras wagon without putting down a vote.

95 - Deras strongest scum read.

261 - This is where he takes up part of GM's case on me. I remember being really surprised at this at the time. I had the impression of a thoughtful, somewhat cautious player up to that point, in part because he'd never put a vote down. No vote in the first 250 posts of a game is kinda remarkable.

517 - where he backed off. At that point I thought his vote was extremely stale. He wasn't interacting with me. He wasn't pushing for more votes on me. He was just sitting there on what I thought and think was a bad case. This sentence seems kinda strange, forced even:

I can't follow up on a case that is based on a misrep, it wouldn't be right and it wouldn't be town.

If you're town, then by definition what you are doing is being town. The only question is how effective you are being as town.

548 - up in arms about my unvote after Carey up AA at L-1. I unvoted, stating that my suspicions hadn't changed but didn't want a premature hammer.

General observations - Long periods of no vote, really sticky vote on me, stayed on Carey for a long time while slot was filled, as though there was nothing more to sort re other players without that replacement. Absent from game thread for long periods. Follows/supports GM frequently, including his vote today on Eye. Misreps? Misunderstandings? Took a long damn time to work out the flaws in his case on me.

It's a tight, cautious game.

[fferyllt]

Okay, in the interests of moving forward and widening out a bit, and to make sure I don't

support a mislynch in my absence

.
UNVOTE: goodmorning

This post from Frop really irks me...presumably he thinks GM is scum (being the reason his vote was on her)...so like, why would he call her a mislynch while unvoting? It's not like he's saying his opinion changed, he's saying he doesn't want to be on the wagon while he's gone...

Look at 446 again. He was acknowledging and to some extent agreeing with my reasons for backing off GM, myself. I think the key phrase there is "just to make sure".

[fferyllt]

Anyways I'm off tow ork. It might be about 2 hours before I'm in a position to play Mafia, but I should be back on soon enough.

I'd like to hear everyone's opinion on a Mac lynch versus a GM lynch.

I'd prefer a Mac lynch.

[fferyllt]

Wasn't too excited about the wagon frenzies yesterday.

VOTE: Mac

[fferyllt]

right. with another replacement. on the plus side, it might prevent another Sargasso Sea effect while we wait for Rev's replacement.

p-edit idgi

[fferyllt]

Three bandwagons pushed to L-1 in a matter of a few hours. I had to breath into a paper bag.

[fferyllt]

The thing with Eye's maths and logic, though had nothing to do with AA's theory that scum were purposefully seeded, 1 among the SE's-IC and 1 among the scum. His math was about the probability of finding randomly assigned scum among the SE/IC group unless I completely and totally misunderstood his formulae.

It was basically a nerdy digression.

[fferyllt]

^^ 1 among the newbies.

[fferyllt]

Did you finish reading the thread?

[fferyllt]

In Angel's 264 in her "catch up" post, she was suspicious of only Eye Urn and Rev. It should be quite interesting to see how that flips around.

What was your takeaway here?

[fferyllt]

Why is Deras where he is?

[fferyllt]

Deras is...a mystery. He's an X factor. He was here yesterday and he actually voted me when the wagon took off. Do you know where he stands on me presently? Do you know if he actually thinks GM is scum?

Deras, Eye Urn bothered me equally in that respect.

AA's naked survivalism was at least clearly what it was. Their motivations? I don't know.

[fferyllt]

But that's the entire point of your case.. gone?

I asked you to provide points where I was cheerleading lynches early on, you said ff did (I could only make out Deras which I'd already explained) and you; but my vote was already on you.

What else you got?

The other observation I made is that in my case you didn't do shit to either get others on your side for the lynch - no effort at persuasive case-building, or to get me sorted. You didn't engage me further. I had to pester you to go back and look at my rebuttal. About 250 posts downthread you finally unvoted me. At that point, it was pretty clear that my wagon wasn't going anywhere.

[fferyllt]

But that's the entire point of your case.. gone?

I asked you to provide points where I was cheerleading lynches early on, you said ff did (I could only make out Deras which I'd already explained) and you; but my vote was already on you.

What else you got?

The other observation I made is that in my case you didn't do shit to either get others on your side for the lynch - no effort at persuasive case-building, or to get me sorted. You didn't engage me further. I had to pester you to go back and look at my rebuttal. About 250 posts downthread you finally unvoted me. At that point, it was pretty clear that my wagon wasn't going anywhere.

This is also a bit of a misrep. I didn't really build a case that because I wanted to see your reactions and where you would go with it, but I stated why I voted you. You and I both had a Q and A session together both before and after where people could see where we were both coming from.

Then, contrary to your "250 posts later" I had a couple of busy days and didn't post where I interacted only to give brief thoughts. Then I returned, answered your quote and unvoted based on the fact it all revolved around us not understanding each other.

As much as you want to plaster it as "200 posts later" I only posted in about 3 of them. It's not like I ignored you completely.

254 - Is where you pick up pieces of GM's argument - Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:51 am

We go back and forth for a bit.

287 - you put the vote down - Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:21 pm

A few back-and-forths after that ending on April 3.

A couple of "I'm catching up posts on Apr 4 and 6.

517 Then a response to me on April 8, where you unvote.

Ok. Your assertion that you got back to me as soon as feasible fits that.

I guess the reamaining niggle is that it was another case of you following GM, though this time you took it through to a vote.

Really, the only thing you've

done

in this game that wasn't in line with GM's direction was the vote on Carey.

[fferyllt]

People I will not vote today, even if it would be as a compromise: VE, ff, Deras
People I would vote today as a compromise only: AA9, Rev
People I would happily vote today: Z,

Fe

, Mac


PEDIT: CAPSLOCK FOREVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
DON'T BE A DICKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

following.

[fferyllt]

Yeah, we are getting along ok. We're being quite blatant about it, wouldn't you say? Comparing notes, ISO-ing. Asking questions.

[fferyllt]

Also feryl if you're scum I don't even...

ditto. in spades.

[fferyllt]

I find it extremely ironic that Mac was opposed to Z's case on GM being based on meta, saying "find me stuff in

this

game that makes GM scummy" and yet, when confronted with behavior I find scummy from

this

game to attack Mac with, all he's got is "But meta!! META!!!"

PEdit:
AA then vote Mac and I promise we'll lynch scum.

You are so much more sure about this bandwagon than I am.

[fferyllt]

While not as strongly as in the past, I still like Mac as Town, even after he voted for me and actually that caused me to like him more. He is absolutely right that my recent update to where my vote is being placed looks like shit when you aren't fully aware of my thought processes. Two things happened between that post and my previous one: VE agreed he needed to read the thread, and Deras said he'd be interested in a GM lynch if there was more support. If one had been psychic, one would have known that GM was the most scummy person to me and thus the default placement once the vote on VE was no longer needed, and I failed to realize that people aren't always following your entire train of thought, especially since my vote had been on AA9 before VE. Looking back on it, I should have said something more like I said later.

It does bother me that Mac didn't later see my line of thought and pull back his vote, but human minds work very illogically. I don't fault him at all for thinking some of my behavior recently has been scummy, nor do I for that particular post putting him over the edge. My digression into statistics was ill-advised and ill-worded, and I'm not surprised if it was read the wrong way. I explained what I meant the best I could and if he can't figure it out, oh well. Unlike GM, I don't care what other people think about me.

Now after thinking about it

I can totally see GM's continual slips of showing that she hasn't read the thread closely to be coming from a townie

. She just doesn't want to be bothered with playing the game well, she just wants to play it her way and damn the consequences. It's in such opposition to the way I try to play it's remarkable. It's also very anti-town. If she's not scum, she's doing town a huge disfavor. I can compare that to AA9 whose arguments literally make no sense and is wantonly disregarding how her self-preservation votes are looking and say that it just seems way totally too obviously bad for it to be legitimately scum-based. She's also doing town a huge disfavor by existing in this game, and while I can vote to remove her as well, I think it's less likely that she's actually scum. Day 1 with brand-new people you've never met things aren't going to be very clear cut; I just have to take my stand against the person I think is helping town the least by their presence.

The only people I will vote to lynch right now are AA9 and GM. I could possibly be convinced to lynch VE, Z7, and ffer, if someone puts forward a decent enough case. I'd rather no lynch than lynch Mac, Rev, or Deras.

You were dead set againt lynching Z7 yesterday.

And your two players you are willing to lynch today, you can totally see their play as terribad town.

[fferyllt]

I'm hearing twilight zone soundtrack.

[fferyllt]

Explain how you think I have him as town. I said yesterday I was considering a vote on him after he hopped from VE to GM yesterday.

[fferyllt]

How strong is the case, really? And how sure can you ever be? Could say a lot of shit, but uncertainty isn't doubt. It's lack of certainty.

[fferyllt]

walking around in deep fog, along with the usual helping of paranoia.

I had to go back to the beginning of the thread and read Fropome's posts to recapture how I thought he was seeing the game. I almost helped get his slot lynched yesterday without doing that first.

I feel better about my town reads than my scum reads atm and I'm highly suspicious of people who disagree with those reads when I can't see why. Which was why I was so pissed about the bandwagons last night.

How do I true that up with my own vote on Z7? Rhetorical question.

You are making sense. Sensible discussion has been kinda lacking. Z7 isn't the only player who posts big update posts. It's like talking to a wall. But, without enough viewpoints being actively kicked around - not just blogged - echo chamber is also an issue.

[fferyllt]

I mean look at Eye's latest post. His top two lynch picks are players he thinks could be terribad town. He makes a plea for someone else to make a case on somebody and convince him. He admits that he's not showing his own work when he puts down a vote or takes off a vote. The latter actually looks a little townish. Scum tend to be more obsessive than town about telegraphing "thought progressions" on players. There ought to be some fucking urgency this close to nightfall.

[fferyllt]

I mean, the pitfalls of playing in a slow-moving environment being used to a fast-moving one amirite?

To be fair though, that may be another reason that I have a townread on you whether it should be or not - how you always seem to BE here. It would be really easy for you to FAKE interest in the game as scum in this way, but because you're like, the ONLY other person who's around as much as I am that doesn't even matter to me.

So essentially I'm putting all my eggs in the townFferyllt basket, foolishly. But, as we're both finding, that's not enough is it?

No, it's not enough. This player list is what it is, though.

Re eggs and baskets, if we're both town, mutual paranoia will set in soon enough.

[fferyllt]

Eye, that's the first genuine out loud laugh this thread has given me in longer than I can remember. See, you didn't even snark back at that when I said it to you.

[fferyllt]

Nah, surely one of us will die if we're both town. Scumteams don't let active townies congeal in the manner we have over the course of this day.

Such is conventional wisdom. Scum don't always do the conventional thing night 1, though my experience so far at MS has been pretty conventional. Except for my own newbie scum game. We set the cat amongst the pigeons night 1.

But, it's why town needs more of a core than 2 players trying to work together. Otw it's starting from scratch on day 2 if scum want things that way.

[fferyllt]

Eye, that's the first genuine out loud laugh this thread has given me in longer than I can remember. See, you didn't even snark back at that when I said it to you.

When you said it, it made me generally reconsider the entire game. It was a moment when I realized there was more to what goes on in the game than what gets said in thread, there's the entire stories being played in other people's heads that you're only catching vague glimpses of. People can change their mind because they had a stressful day at work, or because someone makes a tpyo/

I'm playing as transparently as I know how. An insight like that shared in the game thread would go a long way toward helping other town players find you town.

[fferyllt]

Tried to do a ranked list of players. Failed.

I'm willing to lynch Mac and AA barring something spectacular.

[fferyllt]

The Mac-wagon may pick up speed overnight. We'll see. but, yeah. apathy.

[fferyllt]

reactive game and survivor tells, mostly.

After she replaced in, I read a scum game of hers where she claimed beloved princess and threatened a town loss if she was lynched. That sort of gambit wouldn't work in the newbie games, but the scum easter egg hunt might have flown in a more gullible crowd. That's pretty much a long shot, though.

[fferyllt]

speak volumes of what, though?

[fferyllt]

who is goodmorning's vote on?

[fferyllt]

reactive game and survivor tells, mostly.

After she replaced in, I read a scum game of hers where she claimed beloved princess and threatened a town loss if she was lynched. That sort of gambit wouldn't work in the newbie games, but the scum easter egg hunt might have flown in a more gullible crowd. That's pretty much a long shot, though.

Listen girl, you're just over thinking. you're talking about a bastard game.. are you comparing a newbie game with bastard game? that's the worst comparison ever.. that game was suppose to be played in that way.. each player has a hidden win-condition along with their team alignment, i was janitor and my hidden agenda was to over face the God father and be the beloved princess of the town.

I had to what i had to do to survive. that doesn't tell you anything. and since you don't give a shit about meta, why are you basing your read on my scum meta???

You keep popping up with the most bizarre comments. Where the hell did you get the idea I don't give a shit about meta?

My eyeballs are bleeding from all the meta dives I've done this game. I'm finding that one-off meta isn't nearly as useful as experienced meta, though.

I said that it was remotely possible (

see that part about a long shot?

) that you would try something like the non-random role assignments thing as a gambit.

But the main thing that is odd about you is what you'll do to survive - which has been jump from bandwagon to bandwagon, and switch your scum and town lists like laundry depending on who does or doesn't currently suspect you.

[fferyllt]

VE, how do you feel about the Eye Urn bandwagon? It's currently Mac and ArcAngel.

[fferyllt]

your ideas are intriguing to me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[fferyllt]

I won't vote Z7 again. I'm glad that bw fell apart.

[fferyllt]

Noticing that this is Eye's 3rd game kinda helps put his play into better perspective. Not as concerned about him as I was when he first put that vote down on GM.

[fferyllt]

Welcome, GiF!

[fferyllt]

Sadly, I can't refute that.

[fferyllt]

Timing and situation.

elaborate plz

[fferyllt]

no kidding.

[fferyllt]

I'd like for us to NOT FUCKING HAMMER until GiF has caught up and posted something substantive.

Thank you very much.

[fferyllt]

Who the hell is Fe? Also plz don't hammer until I finish reading plz.

Fe is Goodmorning speak for Eye Urn.

GM as often as we have to explain this shit, will you please find an easier nick?

[fferyllt]

Explain how you think I have him as town. I said yesterday I was considering a vote on him after he hopped from VE to GM yesterday.

Time to prove your honesty. Hammer Eye please...

shut the fuck up.

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE:

Keep reading Guy.

Note it down my vote is effectively on Eye here though, this is to stop any sort of derp hammermove.

Thanks.

[fferyllt]

Explain how you think I have him as town. I said yesterday I was considering a vote on him after he hopped from VE to GM yesterday.

Time to prove your honesty. Hammer Eye please...

shut the fuck up.

Do I need to explain why that was a stupid thing to post?

I hope not.

[fferyllt]

Explain how you think I have him as town. I said yesterday I was considering a vote on him after he hopped from VE to GM yesterday.

Time to prove your honesty. Hammer Eye please...

shut the fuck up.

Do I need to explain why that was a stupid thing to post?

I hope not.

becuz you're being boorish and you deserve that!!!

I was talking about your "prove your honesty" post. Terribad. Please go think about it.

[fferyllt]

oh yeah..how about your posting style.. don't kill yourself.. I will give forgive you...

Chivvying someone to hammer at this juncture is anti-town.

[fferyllt]

GuyInFreezer replaces Revenus. Welcome him!

And he replaces in with plenty of time to spare... There will be no deadline extension!

Bad joke? Fineeeeeeee...

Deadline will be extended an additional seventy-two hours.

[fferyllt]

^^ DISAGREE

[fferyllt]

I have absolutely no interest in ending this game day before GiF has a chance to catch up and contribute. I think doing so would be anti-town.

[fferyllt]

He was before Mac unvoted.

[fferyllt]

I agree that the math argument is specious. I'm willing to consider the possibility that it's just glazed eyes over statistics and not an intentional misrepresentation.

There are other things I don't like about Eye's recent posts. But as I said earlier today, learning that he's played only 2 games before changes how I view some of those posts.

There is an assumption that I'll hammer Eye floating around. It's not a for sure. I wish Eye would interact more. When he does I get a better vibe usually.

[fferyllt]

@EVERYONE: That Fe is more willing to lynch fffff than he is to lynch Mac or even Rev should speak volumes to anyone who's even glanced at this game.

This, for a start.

GM it's internally consistent, however wrongheaded it looks.

@Deras:

None of those attempt in any way to deflect attention from Carey. I use several points (meta, speed of read buildup) to ascertain that I believe his slot to be Town. One person saying "I think this guy is Town" =/= one person saying "we should ignore this guy".
IN FACT, I would think that it would increase attention on him since you all thought I was Scum.

Fe is playing very close to the belt, and he's made false arguments one too many times for me to feel comfortable.

Mac is misrepping A LOT recently, AND he's been buddying me. If you don't find the case against Z to be enough, I'm questioning why you don't think misrepping is scummy.

That's the most basic basics of the Fe case in my boat

, you may want to ask ff if it's not convincing enough for you.

Apparently I literally have answered this before in very simple fashion. I'll add now another thing I've mentioned before: none of his posts seem particularly connected to the game.

Does that lack of connectivity look scummy? He seems to be viewing the game through a "says what I'm thinking" filter. IMO that's a useful filter - it's just not conclusive. Where I used to play regularly there were 3-4 players that I could originally almost reliably read on that basis, but we all got better and better at faking that town mindmeld when we were scum. In this case, it's basically unconscious - nobody is reaching out trying to garner "thinkvibe" townpoints with Eye.

[fferyllt]

Ok. While reading, there's a word that I have trouble understanding. What is "sigbet" ?

sigbet = signature bet.

So now I'm at the part where (the one and only) AA9 replaces in. I can't seem to understand her motive of setup discussion.

welcome to my world. :/

[fferyllt]

Are you positing an AA9/VE scum team?

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE: Mac

Round and round and round we go. where we stop nobody knows.

[fferyllt]

That unvote has REALLY disturbed me. Like, I'm pretty sure we don't have any trolls or idiots in this game who will hammer without a claim from Angel. As long as people are aware that an "intent to hammer" is ALWAYS necessary, having Angel at L-1 should be fine and hopefully force some content from her.

Why did you unvote fferyll when no one is gonna hammer prematurely? Especially considering your "suspicions haven't changed."

AA9, get involved or be lynched. I want ff's answer before I consider putting AA9 at L-1

@Deras

- do you mind getting an avatar?

^^ When I unvoted AA (stating my suspicions had not changed) after Carey put her at L-1.

UNVOTE:

Keep reading Guy.

Note it down my vote is effectively on Eye here though, this is to stop any sort of derp hammermove.

^^ When GM put Eye at L-1.

@Mac is this a change of heart about L-1 strategy? Do we have trolls now that we didn't have then?

[fferyllt]

I don't like GM's reads and I still harbor thoughts that AA9 is scum. Being on the same bandwagon with both of them with a player I originally thought was town should and did make me sit up and take notice. GM's case on that slot dates back to Fropome's posts. After reviewing the first 10 or so pages of the thread again night before last, my town read on Fropome is renewed. Z7's posts are better the last couple of days, too. I don't agree with some of his reads, but the reads fit how he's approaching the game.

One thing that puzzles me is how Z7's got me at one end of his scumometer and VE at the other. Our play over the last couple days has been pretty similar in some ways.

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE: ArcAngel

To get her off L-1. My level of suspicion is unchanged, but I don't want her hammered prematurely.

So this is a different sentiment than you expressed?

[fferyllt]

There were something like 32 pages when I replaced in - you didn't seem worried about me "having extra time" when AA was at L-1 I think is her point.

No, that wasn't my point. A page or so after that Carey decided to replace out. I thought that the AA wagon went to L-1 for derpy reasons. The next vote could have been more well thought out but the wagon IMO did not represent anything like a solid consensus.

I'm not sure how closely you read your predecessor's posts. At times I thought he was doing protown stuff - pushing people to post reads and stuff, even though he wasn't posting much thought of his own, especially when the thread activity would die back to near nothing. His votes, though, were weird.

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE: ArcAngel

To get her off L-1. My level of suspicion is unchanged, but I don't want her hammered prematurely.

So this is a different sentiment than you expressed?

Yep.

You don't want AA hammered prematurely (read: right now) for no reason. I don't want Eye hammered so I can give GiF a chance to read and voice his opinions. As soon as he does this, my vote will go back on.

For no reason?

If that's what you thought then I can see why you didn't like my unvote.

[fferyllt]

I thought it was implicit, given my statement that my suspicions hadn't changed. barring something giving me reason to think she looked better or to think someone else looked worse, my vote was going back.

I'll keep that in mind for future games.

[fferyllt]

GiF you know we're hanging on your every word here, right?

No pressure.

[fferyllt]

How many times does one excuse "sorry I misread that" before one stops taking it as benign skimming and starts taking it as scummy misconstruing?

I intend to answer this question of myself before D2.

Uncharitable interpretations can come from a town PoV, too. due to suspicion, paranoia, and general jumping at shadows. Add in all the cultural differences that happen when people come to a dedicated site to play mafia for more hilarity.

I've been playing with the same 40-50 players game after game after game for 3 or 4 years. In that environment, my personal quirks are well known and I've gotten out of the habit of showing my work to the nth degree. I've drastically upped how much I explain myself in the games I've played here so far, but I'm not terribly surprised that it isn't always enough.

I'll probably start playing a little more opaquely in another game or two. Complete transparency isn't optimal play for town players IMO. But it does make it a lot easier to be town-recognizable when you're an unknown quantity.

[fferyllt]

I think you had a look at AA9's posts/slot. If not, she'd be good. I was cautious about her initially because I had some concerns about AlexisTay3. Goodmorning and Revenus. Revenus put very little down in the thread, so GiF's gotten an almost spotless slot. Goodmorning has such a different play style that I have trouble reading her, and I worry that I've underestimated her.

[fferyllt]

The conspiracy theory stuff didn't really make sense to me. And there was an exchange between him, GM and me that seemed odd, though it could be a plsy-style mismatch.

It starts with 151 including the spoiler. Alexis posted some suspicions about GM and got some strong pushback. He tried to smooth over it in post 155. I called him on it in 157. He did another about face/deflection in 158. I asked him what he thought of GM's hostility but I don't think I got an answer before he replaced out.

[fferyllt]

AlexisTay actually reminded me a lot of how I played in Newbie 1319, floating over the game, mostly not getting into it with players, especially day 1. I was scum. Someone actually called me on trying to smooth over an irritable reply I got for an ISO analysis comment. He said it was scummy behavior, but wrote it down to my overall thoughtful, nonconfrontational play style.

Anyway, that was why I tried to push Alexis when he backed down in the face of GM's reaction to his wall post.

[fferyllt]

Eye, we're still trying to figure this lynch out. VE and I have been taking a thorough look at the Alexis/AA9 slot. Any thoughts about what we have dug up so far?

[fferyllt]

I reread Revenus and I just can't see that slot as scum.

GiF I'm really curious to see your reads.

[fferyllt]

In the context of that paragraph, not exactly a smoking gun.

[fferyllt]

What do you think about the AlexTay/AA9 slot, VE?

[fferyllt]

It's a source of puzzlement to me. What sets my alarms off almost never matches up well with what other people find scummy about a player. The logic chains usually make sense, but I almost always have found a different loose thread.

So yeah. Would be happy (once again) with an AA9 lynch today.

[fferyllt]

Timing and situation.

elaborate plz

He's said it throughout the game

, whereas I confined it to early on.

Did you ever post some "throughout the game" examples of what you are talking about here?

[fferyllt]

It's a source of puzzlement to me. What sets my alarms off almost never matches up well with what other people find scummy about a player. The logic chains usually make sense, but I almost always have found a different loose thread.

So yeah. Would be happy (once again) with an AA9 lynch today.

If you disagree with anything or something doesn't make sense now is the time to say something.

No, I don't disagree at all. Like I said, different loose threads, but the logic chains make sense.

[fferyllt]

How many times do I need to say that GM quite intentionally and quite obviously decided to ask me for more information about a post that she didn't even read. No one has asked for other indications of this type of behavior, and I probably don't have time to find them now so maybe you can do your own investigations if you care enough. I really don't care about her motivation for it. It's laziness, and I hate it.

You are right that there have been assertions/questions that she never followed up. Is it laziness? Deciding the lead was a blind alley? Scumminess?

Are you trying to figure out the motivation behind the behavior? It gave me fits during the first week or two of the game.

[fferyllt]

VOTE COUNT 1.16

[L-5] Z7-852:

[L-5] fferyllt:

[L-5] Deras:

[L-4] ArcAngel9: (Eye Urn)

[L-4] Mac: (fferyllt)

[L-2] Eye Urn: (ArcAngel9, VisceraEyes, goodmorning)

[L-5] VisceraEyes:

[L-5]

Revenus

GuyInFreezer:

[L-3] goodmorning: (Z7-852, Deras)

Not Voting:

2 (GuyInFreezer, Mac)

• With nine alive, it takes five to lynch.
  
• Day One's deadline: April 18, 2013 CST or in (expired on 2013-04-21 20:45:00).
  
• V/LA: No one.
  
• GuyInFreezer replaced Revenus.
  
• Deadline has been extended 72 hours.

I know this is a little out of date, but I wanted to have a look at where my town reads are voting.

If we could get a town core together and in agreement that would rock.

My strongest town reads are Revenus/GiF, VE, and Z7. Deras is not too far behind them.

At this point I'd feel best about lynching AA9, though I'm still pretty swayed by other cases.

Eye Urn is giving off an annoyed/disgusted newbtown vibe, though I'm not sure that given his game persona annoyed/disgusted newbscum would seem all that different.

GM hovers around null with the occasional slight movement to null/slight town and null/slight scum. This worries me. I know some players actually make an effort to float in that range but it's also difficult for many scum players to do better than null/slight town on the Richter scale. with their best efforts.

Mac is closer to town than null right now.

With 3 weeks worth of posts, it's possible to build at least a weak scum case on most town players. Town players don't worry nearly as much about misspeaking as scum do. So, I tend to take a body of work approach - what has the impact of their posts been? From that perspective, active scumhunting/questioning and active interaction with other players will always impress me more than observaiton-heavy WoTs. But availability and time zones are what they are. From that perspective, Revenus' posts, while very townish, do fall behind a little. Z7's too, but that's counter-weighted by heavy interaction from Fropome who had the slot first. AA9 is not big on WoTs but her content is highly reactive. I don't see her often seeking out interactions unless she's trying to get a bandwagon across the finish line. She's reacting mostly to stuff said about her in the game thread.

[fferyllt]

So the question becomes: do we stay the course with an Eye lynch or do we switch gears into an Angel lynch? Obviously Angel will want to weigh in, but I suspect she'll just fly off the handle and complain about circle-jerking some more, so I doubt that will be much help. What do you think?

Frankly I could go either way, but there's a preexisting wagon on Eye. :/ What do you think?

Sorry, was working on a WoT. I'm leaning AA9. GiF could probably sway me in another direction depending on what he comes up with. I'd really like to see a town core form, though. I'm tired of finding myself on wagons with my null and scum reads.

[fferyllt]

Is there a specific case against AA9 except for overreaction?

We've been dissecting the previous occupier of that slot over the last 12 hours or so. AlexisTay. AA9 inherited a spot that I was suspicious of. VE has found stuff that I missed when I was evaluating AlexisTay's posts.

Catch up and see what you think.

Who do you want to lynch?

[fferyllt]

The AlexisTay discussion starts here: 1246

[fferyllt]

Yeah, "case" is a strong word. More in the nature of comparing notes and pointing up oddities.

[fferyllt]

Also could you elaborate on the "not particularly connected to the game" part? Do you mean he's just trying to appear active, but not actively contributing?

GM, did you answer this?

[fferyllt]

Stream-of-consciousness is a very good way to try and get a read on people. That's not what I see from him.

@Deras: I'll try and answer tomorrow, just looking at your post is giving me a bit of a headache.

Is this the answer?

Because it's a lousy answer.

[fferyllt]

gah this game. we've got a little over a day now.

[fferyllt]

VOTE: ArcAngel9

[fferyllt]

^^ I like this stuff. Putting some detail and data behind your reads makes a huge difference. Occasionally winding up on the same bandwagon with a lot of gut-read handwaving has been kind of unsettling.

[fferyllt]

Greetings fellow Hylians!

I've played a few games on other sites years ago (and a lot of live games at Origins one particular year)

and perhaps the theory has evolved a bit since then, but it seems games on this site run at a much higher level. Having determined this after a read through a few other games, I feel a very workable strategy for scum in newbie games is to just not post very often, even claiming (maybe it's the truth, who knows) to have somewhat limited time to devote to the game. Dropping in once a week to provide a slim set of reads and not getting involved in townies arguing with each other is a great way for scum to look like they're trying to play but mostly have people forget about them. I sincerely hope that everyone in this game is dedicated to providing useful dialog, and won't just prod-dodge. Not contributing to active discussion is anti-town. That doesn't mean posting and saying hi every day, it means at very least making commentary about what's going on even if you're not sure where they participants stand.

I was going to have a paragraph here ranting about the random voting stage, but in the process I came to the conclusion that it does serve one useful purpose: to get people that have some votes thrown their way talking about something substantial, even if it is to say that all the votes on them are random. Just the process of coming out of one's shell and showing how one responds to pressure, even baseless pressure, is information the town can potentially use to its advantage. That's not to say that I love the random voting stage, and think there are some other very good ways to break the ice - starting off with introductions is quite useful in games like this one where people for the most part don't know a damn thing about each other - but RVS seems to be firmly entrenched on this site and I have to play the same game as everyone else. So here goes my vote for the person whose name I hate the most.

VOTE: goodmorning

I don't like mornings and I really don't like being bombarded with pleasantries first thing in the morning every day at work, so your name is a major turn-off for me. Sorry.

(Not implying I am, this is my 3rd game of Forum Mafia ever. I found the previous 2 still on the internet if people want to see them.)

I had forgotten Eye's intro post where he said he had a fair bit of mafia experience, though most of it is not forum mafia. Need to think about this.

[fferyllt]

Agree re Z7. I waffle between AA9 and Eye. They have had very similar reactions to lynch pressure, actually.

[fferyllt]

GM how do you feel about being in agreement with Mac on Eye?

[fferyllt]

That was an interesting flurry of activity. :/

[fferyllt]

Who's around?

[fferyllt]

that would be no one.

[fferyllt]

I wish I had more solid town reads.

How does AA9's flounce rate? Was that a scummy flounce? Towny flounce?


pedit this is a drunkpost. :)l

[fferyllt]

Honestly I'm still holding out hope for the Fe wagon to rise from the ashes again.

that doesn't really answer my question about the flounce.

[fferyllt]

flounce - an exaggeratedly annoyed, impatient, angry exit.

[fferyllt]

Part of me just wants to give her her wish and lynch her regardless of her alignment. But I seldom listen to that part in mafia games.

Eye flounced too. And I have the same questions - what motivation drove the flounce?

[fferyllt]

well...he flounced and actually left, it seems.

When I'm town with a bandwagon on me, even if I give up on shaking the lynch I still have a town win as my goal. I work to the bitter end trying to refine my reads and leave the best cases I can.

Neither of them are doing that.

[fferyllt]

CAKE

All these damn acronyms. What does this one mean?

[fferyllt]

literally laughed out loud.

Happy Birthday!

[fferyllt]

Something like what ff said: "When I'm town with a bandwagon on me, even if I give up on shaking the lynch I still have a town win as my goal. I work to the bitter end trying to refine my reads and leave the best cases I can." I think Town!Fe would be likely to do that rather than basically tell everyone to fuck off.

Ok, so from the quality of the flounces you think this could be town- AA9? And you kind of extrapolate into unseen territory that town-FE wouldn't have given up in quite this way?

[fferyllt]

Yes and based on the quality of his play, yes.

The sort of shut-down he has done fits a conservative scum motivation. It minimizes the associative trails.

The sort of shut-down AA has done fits a more gambit-driven scum motivation. It lays down gazilions of associative trails and increases WIFOM.

[fferyllt]

Z7 you keep popping in here. What are your thoughts about this?

[fferyllt]

Problem here is that nobody is trying to derail this bandwagon

dude, I've been second guessing this wagon since the minute I put my vote down.

[fferyllt]

Nolynch day 1? No.

[fferyllt]

I just see sentiment about AA maybe being town for calling everyone pathetic - I just want to make sure we're all after the same thing.

Not everyone. There were two bandwagoneers missing from her diatribe.

[fferyllt]

I just see sentiment about AA maybe being town for calling everyone pathetic - I just want to make sure we're all after the same thing.

Not everyone. There were two bandwagoneers missing from her diatribe.

Hmm?

Eye and VE IIRC.

[fferyllt]

She later said she wanted Z7 and VE lynched next. No mention of Eye in any of that. But, I'm pretty sure her vote is on Eye.

[fferyllt]

Four hours to go.

[fferyllt]

I don't. I'd compromise on Eye if this wagon fell apart but I don't think it will.

[fferyllt]

We can still talk until tracey gets here. Good time to put down thoughts about tomorrow.

Right now, Eye would be my first choice for lynch tomorrow.

And, barring something unusual I'd consider GiF and Z7 to be strong town reads going into tomorrow. Still have a town read on FE, but it's not quite as strong as the first two.

Any other last thoughts?

[fferyllt]

Ok. keep in mind that I helped teach him the game, modded two of his games and played in the other three that he was involved in either before or when this game started. Fropome will certainly be able to fool me as scum, and maybe soon. I don't think he was there yet while he was playing this game.

[fferyllt]

Yeah, she may flip town. We'll see.

I just don't want the basis of my read to go unsaid. I never assume I'm getting another game day.

[fferyllt]

It's both. My game is probably more experienced-meta based than most players. I have a knack for spotting behavioral patterns in players I've played with before. Meta from games I didn't play or watch is not nearly as useful.

[fferyllt]

It was your post-hammer comment that gives me pause AA.

I don't think you would lie after the lynch is over. So, yeah. I think you may flip town now.

[fferyllt]

ooooookay. catch you later.

[fferyllt]

Interesting.

Eye, are you going to pull up your socks today and scumhunt? because I could totally go with an Eye lynch atm.

[fferyllt]

Take it easy, man. I'm waiting for everyone to post.
In fact, the person I really want to talk to hasn't appeared yet.

So ffer. Your #1377 gets my attension.
Your first part of the sentence implies that Eye is town, yet say you could totally go for his lynch.
Mind explaining?

I would like to think that he's town because I had a town read on him for a good portion of day 1. His posts 1026 and 1251 shook that read pretty badly. Though post 1129 struck me as something close to what I might post in the way of a vote-post if I were pissed and resigned enough. If I read the thread sentiment correctly, he was probably the lynch if we moved off AA9.

So, it's a new day and he's still among the breathing. It's up to him to pour on some town play if he's town.

Eye you could start with your current reads if you've congealed them. Or your thoughts about the night kill choice.

[fferyllt]

Hey VE you have any thoughts besides everybody get in here and contribute?

[fferyllt]

Why Deras do you think? Was he the universally recognized most towny player?

What do you think about both of us being alive today?

[fferyllt]

Although I have to say that you asking makes me wonder... <.< >.>

being alive makes me wonder.

[fferyllt]

Although I have to say that you asking makes me wonder... <.< >.>

being alive makes me wonder.

Oh please don't tell me you've never expected to be shot and left alive to wonder the next day. It's like scum101 sista. Drive a wedge between active townies so they focus on each other instead of what they WERE doing, focusing on the game.

Different site, different meta, and a less effective me in a new environment.

Stop worrying. I'll worry if we're both alive at LYLO.

Not worrying. Considering the lay of the land today. I don't like to ignore elephants in the room.

[fferyllt]

so we're waiting for...?

Eye to either show up or be replaced
Z7 to post his analysis

This apathy is pretty bad. If Eye is scum he has a partner. If he's not there are two scum under the radar atm. I'll try to pull some thoughts together tonight.

[fferyllt]

from late day 1

I think there are more lynchworthy targets than AA9 tbh. Guy can you expand on your reasoning a little motte?

AA9 who are your scumreads and why?

If it comes close to deadline I'll hammer but

I'd rather lynch Eye

.

what other targets?

[fferyllt]

ugh. tried to bold two parts of that post. Your first sentence. Obviously Eye, but you said lynchworthy

targets

. Who else were you thinking about?

[fferyllt]

Except that of all the players in this game Deras probably held the least sway. What would be the point of anyone killing him because they were or weren't suspected by him?

The other two players likely to vote you right out of the gate today are less universally townie. In fact one could be the early lynch leader today based on sentiments expressed so far. Of Z7, Eye and Deras, deras probably would have the most sway, actually.

[fferyllt]

Z7 did vote you but I think you would have been second lowest in his pile based on his last scumometer. I'm curious about the rationale but I don't find it all that odd that he re-evaluated based on AA's flip. So 2 players known likely to vote you out of the gate - Deras and Eye.

Dunno. Maybe.

[fferyllt]

I think it has been 48 hours since the day started

@Mod could you prod anyone who is due for a prod?

Thanks!

[fferyllt]

Oh...ok. Thanks!

[fferyllt]

ugh. tried to bold two parts of that post. Your first sentence. Obviously Eye, but you said lynchworthy

targets

. Who else were you thinking about?

Was a generic statement. I was only willing to lynch Eye over AA9

interesting.

[fferyllt]

I didn't realize you had the Carey/VE slot sorted well enough that he wasn't still in the frame.

[fferyllt]

UGH CAN WE PLEASE JUST LYNCH Z?!?! GOD

I did not have a scum read on Fropome.

Town players totally fail at logic sometimes.

[fferyllt]

I don't care anymore, Z's posting is atrocious and I want to kill it with fire. He's clearly not reading the thread and clearly doesn't care about finding actual scum.

fferyllt, why are you willfully ignoring Z's filter? You didn't have a town read on Carey either, yet here we are.

The difference is that I

had

a town read on Fropome. We have 2 remaining new-ish players who maybe can't help but do scummy stuff because they don't know better. And we have 5 players who are all experienced enough to play a scum game that is way less scummy looking than the new-ish players.

Games like this are why mafia gives me insomnia.

[fferyllt]

I don't care anymore, Z's posting is atrocious and I want to kill it with fire. He's clearly not reading the thread and clearly doesn't care about finding actual scum.

fferyllt, why are you willfully ignoring Z's filter? You didn't have a town read on Carey either, yet here we are.

The difference is that I

had

a town read on Fropome. We have 2 remaining new-ish players who maybe can't help but do scummy stuff because they don't know better. And we have 5 players who are all experienced enough to play a scum game that is way less scummy looking than the new-ish players.

Games like this are why mafia gives me insomnia.

My point is that my appearance and subsequent posting flipped your read of Carey's slot. Why is Z's posting not affecting you in a similar way? Do you find Z's posting to be particularly townie? If so, could you show me how? If not, could you maybe further explain your town-read on Frop?

I really didn't know what to think of Carey.

There is a consistency to Z7's reads. That's a bit of a concern. That and the middle of his scumometer doesn't really take a stand on players by categorizing them. there's no sense of how much more townish or scummy a player is than the player to their left or right.

OTOH we have players who haven't posted a comprehensive reads list since...mid day 1?

With Fropome I could see what prompted every in-thread reaction, and could follow the town-thinking in his posts, including when, and why he got paranoid about me and what later allayed the paranoia somewhat. I don't have that insight into Z7.

[fferyllt]

I'm being noncommittal? oh god just wait. I can feel serious waffles coming on. Maybe they will manifest in a different game.

[fferyllt]

sigh

[fferyllt]

I don't care anymore, Z's posting is atrocious and I want to kill it with fire. He's clearly not reading the thread and clearly doesn't care about finding actual scum.

fferyllt, why are you willfully ignoring Z's filter? You didn't have a town read on Carey either, yet here we are.

The difference is that I

had

a town read on Fropome. We have 2 remaining new-ish players who maybe can't help but do scummy stuff because they don't know better. And we have 5 players who are all experienced enough to play a scum game that is way less scummy looking than the new-ish players.

Games like this are why mafia gives me insomnia.

My point is that my appearance and subsequent posting flipped your read of Carey's slot. Why is Z's posting not affecting you in a similar way? Do you find Z's posting to be particularly townie? If so, could you show me how? If not, could you maybe further explain your town-read on Frop?

I really didn't know what to think of Carey.

There is a consistency to Z7's reads. That's a bit of a concern. That and the middle of his scumometer doesn't really take a stand on players by categorizing them. there's no sense of how much more townish or scummy a player is than the player to their left or right.

OTOH we have players who haven't posted a comprehensive reads list since...mid day 1?

With Fropome I could see what prompted every in-thread reaction, and could follow the town-thinking in his posts, including when, and why he got paranoid about me and what later allayed the paranoia somewhat. I don't have that insight into Z7.

The bolded is where you lost me. What does the bolded statement have to do with Z7's alignment? How is that on the otherhand to a problem you have with Z7's posting?

It's not a problem I have with Z7. It's a problem I have with giving him shit about his scumometer, since at least I know in general what his reads are. I am going to have to dig to find/remind myself of Mac's reads.

And re: Fropome, that's nice and everything, and what you'd said before. However without showing me what you mean, again I'm just supposed to take your word for it...not doing much to convince me not to lynch Z7.

that's usually a problem with being asked to prove a negative.

[fferyllt]

what? where did I say I think you are scum? most of my reads went kinda null-ish at the start of day 2, but that's pretty typical of me unless I have some seriously strong residual day 1 town reads.

[fferyllt]

I have a feeling Eye won't be back.

p-edit damn I can't POST you guys.

I'll go back through Fropome's posts, but probably not tonight. I've fallen asleep in the middle of ISOs for another game twice in the last hour or so.

[fferyllt]

3rd most posts? what?

[fferyllt]

lol that has to be the 10th you poast toooooo muuuuuuccccchhhh I've read today. I should get into a recovery program.

[fferyllt]

Mac. He mostly floats above the fray.

[fferyllt]

Posts of Fropome's that really stick out as town to me.

26 42 volunteers info about his first and (so far) only completed scum game as a cautionary tale about town lurking. I really can't see a scum motivation for sharing that.

167 One of his reads. This showed some original thought IMO. I disagreed with parts of it. The one thing that stands out to me (and only if the slot is scum) is that he had Revenus as null. Given where he learned mafia, I could see him doing that to a scum buddy if he's scum. BUT I don't think he's scum.

239 This is pure annoyed-with-perceived-dishonesty Fropome. In discussion/debate outside mafia he has no patience for it. I hadn't seen him post like this in a mafia game before, but I've expected it, given his overall posting style.

241 Reacts to my call-out about his play not displaying much paranoia about me at that point. Fits his logic in other games, though in the past he'd been more vocal about worrying about my alignment.

326 Uses the word "please". It inserts some distance. I read this as his paranoia on a slow boil. Given that I had called him out earlier, I could see him posting something paranoid if he were scum. That one word, though, would not be what I'd expect - I'd expect something reasoned. Posting this first, before outlining what was bugging him in latere comes off very genuine. It's not how scum Fropome would plan his attack IMO.

328 Source of the paranoia - I backed down too quickly on GM in his opinion. 329 analyzes the heck out of my play so far and more detail about what he found iffy in my play (not visibly reacting to a GM post that tweaked his scumdar)

446 responds to my explanation for backing off GM. agrees with most of my points. Then unvotes GM before disappearing and eventually being replaced.

[fferyllt]

feryl I'm not asking you to explain why you DON'T think Frop is scum, I'm asking you to show me why you think Frop is town. I'm not asking you to prove a negative, I'm asking you to prove a positive (I think).

Show me how you know what you know about Frop.

well?

[fferyllt]

GiF, what are your thoughts?

[fferyllt]

Quite so what? Are you saying that being unsure of your reads is a scum thing? Is that the awfulness you're trying to inject into this thread?

With some players, it's a different kind of uncertainty. Town tends to put their vote where their compass currently points. Scum tend to hedge. Though one size doesn't fit all.

Looking forward to your thoughts. And if you can drive a truck through my reasons for thinking that Fropome was town please do.

[fferyllt]

GiF posted a V/LA in a different game he's playing. He may have missed this one.

I hate it when the people in my do not lynch pile vote for each other.

[fferyllt]

I guess we're at another standstill waiting for Eye's replacement.

[fferyllt]

Welcome Ineffective! Thanks for replacing in to a 60+ page game.

[fferyllt]

I think if you drag your cursor over the blacked out text you'll see the text.

We lynched ArcAngel9 day 1 and she was vanilla town.

Deras was the night 1 kill and he was also vanilla town.

I'm too sleepy to do a summary right now, but there's a fair bit of suspicion swirling around your predecessor.

[fferyllt]

sigh.

[fferyllt]

From earlier this week. I thought his predecessor was town. Fropome is a relatively new player, not just new to MS. At the time this game started, I had either played or modded every game he's ever played. It would take a lot to shake my read of the slot.

Posts of Fropome's that really stick out as town to me.

26 42 volunteers info about his first and (so far) only completed scum game as a cautionary tale about town lurking. I really can't see a scum motivation for sharing that.

167 One of his reads. This showed some original thought IMO. I disagreed with parts of it. The one thing that stands out to me (and only if the slot is scum) is that he had Revenus as null. Given where he learned mafia, I could see him doing that to a scum buddy if he's scum. BUT I don't think he's scum.

239 This is pure annoyed-with-perceived-dishonesty Fropome. In discussion/debate outside mafia he has no patience for it. I hadn't seen him post like this in a mafia game before, but I've expected it, given his overall posting style.

241 Reacts to my call-out about his play not displaying much paranoia about me at that point. Fits his logic in other games, though in the past he'd been more vocal about worrying about my alignment.

326 Uses the word "please". It inserts some distance. I read this as his paranoia on a slow boil. Given that I had called him out earlier, I could see him posting something paranoid if he were scum. That one word, though, would not be what I'd expect - I'd expect something reasoned. Posting this first, before outlining what was bugging him in latere comes off very genuine. It's not how scum Fropome would plan his attack IMO.

328 Source of the paranoia - I backed down too quickly on GM in his opinion. 329 analyzes the heck out of my play so far and more detail about what he found iffy in my play (not visibly reacting to a GM post that tweaked his scumdar)

446 responds to my explanation for backing off GM. agrees with most of my points. Then unvotes GM before disappearing and eventually being replaced.

Mine is a minority view, I think.

[fferyllt]

Tbh i just saw his last post and gut-voted him -- my gut churned really hard tho.

If i had to make reason to support my gut id say

Over-explainy... Fossing people who arnt - going after a lurker - not reading into intent. all of this from his last post.

most of his posts are distant. he tends to make one or two wall posts a day, and get into minimal back and forth discussion with people who push for it. It's partly time zone, partly style. And it could be scummy, but I really can't see Fropome's posts coming from scum motivation given my knowledge of his town play.

I'm convinced you have a good scumdar. I'm not convinced of your alignment.

Z7 is probably the easiest lynch in the player list since you've replaced in. Eye Urn was also looking like an easy lynch.

[fferyllt]

Mac worries me. So does GiF, but to a lesser extent. Gif replaced Revenus.

VisceraEyes has buddied the hell out of me since replacing in, but it's been so blatant that I have trouble seeing a scum player buddying to such an extent.

[fferyllt]

what?

[fferyllt]

I picked that up with your next post, thanks. I thought you were saying it's outside my town meta to defend someone that hard. I was going to refer you to a long-ass game I played as a hydra. :/

[fferyllt]

mac, GiF and goodmorning.

goodmorning went to L-1 in a flurry of votes late day 1. maybe read her reaction under pressure and see what you think. VE has put pressure on Mac and so have I. He engages for a bit and then disappears again. GiF replaced into a slot that looked really townish. I thought he started well, but kinda faded toward late day 1. Day 2 he hasn't really dug in yet. He was v/la for a few days until earlier today.