Mini 1451: A Memory of Light (Game Over)

Selkies · Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:26 am

In post 1016, Nero Cain wrote:It's been a slow process. You were over halfway there before the end of day 1.

It's been a slow process for me. You were over halfway there before the end of day 1. Orcinus has been catching up with the thread every 2-3 days. I mentioned I was leaning town on you this morning and he was all "No duh" about it.

- f

Selkies · Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:00 am

In post 1025, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:
In post 1013, Selkies wrote:BC what are your current thoughts about Iece?

- f
I can start pulling more detailed meta on IECE; but for now, it appears to me that he’s struggling to keep up and his absence during the bulk of day one has left him at an impasse. It does concern me he took this long to vote, but from my skim of his past games that seems to be a fairly common thing for him regardless of alignment. He's picking up steam now, and I'd like to observe a while longer. The other head is a bit more suspicious than I am of him currently.

Regarding Amrun and Nero, gonna sort out this mess. Can anyone point out Nero’s “crumbs” for me, because I don’t really see them?

Thad is still scum though. Nero/Thad might be a thing and I’ll go back and compare some ISOs.

P-edit: Amrun, the second kill smells more like a SK IMO. The unique way of killing feels wrong for another scum group. But I might be buying too much into the flavor.

~BC

Does it concern you that orcinus and I are taking even longer to vote?

Selkies · Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:14 am

All the claims and all the moving parts to the claims are making me crazy. Could be that the stuff that has bugged us about Amrun since about the start of day has to do with her thinking she'd been tracked.

Amrun are you also a channeler or dreamwalker? I think you said you are not a dreamwalker.

- f

Selkies · Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:39 am

In post 1043, Nero Cain wrote:Why would town be worried that they got tracked?

Why would scum trot out a fake claim with so little vote pressure?

Selkies · Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:02 am

orcinus and I have had a chance to talk in more depth about the game, so I'm ready to move out of data acquisition mode.

But, first I'll talk about the data.

We have a bunch of role claims that don't quite match in terms of details. My initial thought was that some "one of these things is not like the others" would help narrow things down, and perhaps that is true, but it's not obvious at the moment. So, we tried doing a PoE that isn't so role-claim dependent.

Town

Amrun - had her as town yesterday, and when we started thinking about what scum benefit there was to claiming when she did, we realized there isn't much scum benefit at all, and it looks more like town trying to bring some clarity to a murky situation.
Nero - He seems to be classic paranoid town, with his cards held close to his vest.
MsM - Orcinus has her as solid town. I'm always suspicious of her in every game we play, but the only thing about her that bugs me right now is her D1 suspicion of Ghostlin, given her role claim.
Beli - basically everything about his day 2 play rings genuine, including all the effort to figure flavor stuff out and use it to make sense of the claims.
Demon - We've had him as town since early on and haven't seen anything at all to change that.
Iece - this is a big change. His thought progressions on the players he's focused on look natural. At first Orcinus flipped out about the milkshake hammer, but on further thought we've concluded that scum would have been more "Look at me preventing a no lynch" than "oops".

Yeah these

ThAd - role claim is of the "one of these is not like the others" form. Has been coasting even when under suspicion.
SoO - Day 1 devoted to Ghostlin. Progression on MsM day 1 looks bad, and then it's dropped day 2.
GCBC - Could be hydra-related, but there's contradiction and more importantly there's a lack of depth somehow in the analyses. The SoO focus seemed kind of useless and I am now wondering if there was some scum theater involved in that,

And with that, we are going to VOTE: SoO

Selkies · Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:24 am

After this morning's discussion, we've changed our mind about Amrun. The possibility of L-3 still seems a weak reason to trot out a fake claim. Town players claim early in order to shed light on the game. Scum claiming at L-4 just doesn't make sense to me. Especially experienced scum.

Selkies · Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:34 am

In post 1051, Nero Cain wrote:So you think the three scum are in this list?

sword of omens
GoodCop_BadCop
Iecerint
Demon

Me?

No. We have ThAd in our scumpile. and Iecerint and Demon are in our town pile. I think one of our town reads could be wrong. Maybe more than one, but unlikely.

Selkies · Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:41 am

In post 1052, Amrun wrote:@selkies: Wrong. Scum fakeclaiming power roles early isn't odd at all, because they're panicking. It's far more common than town early claiming, because they have the conviction of being town and a desire to protect their PR for the sake of the town.

That's a big reason I suspect Marangal in the first place. I want to re-iterate that it's not just set up spec that makes Marangal scum. Look how she claimed, piecemeal. Look through her ISO and find the scumhunting; it's sparse to nonexistent. Look how little she is concerned with how her claim doesn't fit (this should make her look more closely at other similar roles, and evaluate them in light of her own, but she doesn't). Look how inconsistent and nonsensical she has been re: Ghostlin's claim.

I actually agree that MsM's claim timing looks bad but I understand the whole time zone thing and worrying about being hammered without a chance to claim when the nightfall deadline starts to loom or town seems to be coalescing around a decision.

From what I can gather of her role, it seems weakened by the dreamwalker thing. She has to choose between protecting someone and hiding herself, though hiding in the dreamworld has its on risks apparently. Unless I misunderstood her explanation.

I don't like the way she's focused mostly on Demon.

I'm relying on orcinus' being able to read her better than I do.

Selkies · Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:00 am

I was referrig to both.

Selkies · Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:15 pm

Barking up the wrong tree.

Selkies · Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:37 pm

hi, clarifying something

i don't actually have a town read on m but i'm sure her alignment will become clear soon enough, claimed doc and all, so I'm not really worried about reading her atm

nero: why

-o

Selkies · Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:38 pm

In post 1066, Amrun wrote:Did you seriously just claim that a doctor that can self protect I'd WEAKENED? That's OP as shit and I don't buy it in this game AT ALL!

Haha you had the same reaction as me but then fery explained it to me. It's okay amrun it makes sense

-o

Selkies · Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:11 pm

In post 1069, Amrun wrote:Oh and for the record since several people have mentioned him, my town read on demon has deteriorated significantly since I first stated it, even by the end of yesterday (which I think I noted, not sure). But still, I'm not especially inclined to lynch him, though I'm not opposed except by virtue of far better lynches existing. Demon's a big "meh" for me, though I still don't find him particularly scummy. That being said, I can't exactly call his behavior pro-town.

ThAd and Marangal BOTH pushing for Demon, a relatively safe lurker lynch, solidifies my conviction that there is scum in this group as well as makes me less inclined to lynch Demon by association alone.

P-edit: no it does not make sense.

And yes, she's a claimed doc that lived past night 1 when a claimed PR DIDN'T! It has already been made clear by night play that she's scum!

I thought that dreamwalking is kind of like commuting - they avoid being targeted for night actions, but are at risk of whatever happened to Ghostlin on night 1.

That aspect of dreamwalking is why ThAd's commuter role claim seems different and less flavoricious than MsM's, Beli's and Ghostlin's claims.

Selkies · Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:25 am

Oh hi! It's good to see you!

The day 1 SoO focus seemed kinda useless, and so did SoO's hyperfocus on Ghostlin. I thought SoO had a strong townish start day 1 with his milkshake vote analysis. Day 2 he's almost a non-presence.

I have a theory about the PRs - that there are highly flavored ones and not very flavored ones. ThAd and Amrun appear to be low-flavor. MsM, Ghostlin and Beli appear to be highly flavored. I'm getting town-vibe from Amrun's partial claim and from Beli's. And Beli's is also supported by Ghostlin's flip.

Like Orcinus says, MsM's claim will eventually be cleared up or she'll become of high interest in terms of lynch.

Orcinus and I not getting as much of a town-vibe as we'd like from your partner, GC, which is why you guys have slid into our scum pile.

Selkies · Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:31 am

^^ Missing from that is ThAd. I'm at an impasse trying to read him vs trying to make sense of a commuter claim in a game with so many damned dreamwalkers. But, given the way the dreamwalker mechanic appears to weaken other abilities a la MsM, and carry risks a la Ghostlin it's not beyond belief. Of that bunch, we'd be more likely to vote ThAd today than one of the others.

But, SoO is our top pick.

Selkies · Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:27 pm

In post 1091, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:Oh hi!

In post 1088, Selkies wrote: Orcinus and I not getting as much of a town-vibe as we'd like from your partner, GC, which is why you guys have slid into our scum pile.
Did you mean my partner BC?

If not... this looks like a false read to me considering you can't even tell us apart WITH sigs.

yeah I meant GC's partner BC.

Selkies · Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:15 am

ThAd, what is your read of Amrun?

Selkies · Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:34 pm

unvote

Demon, my town read of you is getting pretty stale. How about some meaningful content?

Orcinus has been sick. I'd like to have some discussion with him about the current game state. If I don't hear from him within the next 12 or so hours, I'll assume that I am on my own for now and put our vote down in the best place I can figure.

Selkies · Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:38 am

I haven't seen Orcinus online since he let me know he was sick on Friday or Saturday, so I'm assuming I'm on my own for now.

@GCBC that wasn't much reaction to being downgraded to my scumpile. (Ironic coming from me, I know)

@Demon still looking for some meaningful content. Based on day 2 so far, I would not have you in my town pile.

@Sword, I have a town read on Beli. I'll review your case on him, but I doubt it will change my mind today.

SoO has been upgraded to town pending discussion with Orcinus, but I expect he'll agree.

Right now, I feel like it's kinda critical to sort MsM and ThAd.

Selkies · Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:25 am

In post 1115, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:So upon an ISO read of him, I’m for sure willing to lynch demon today. At this point, his lurking feels like an attempt to let the thad/mara fight keep him free from more scrutiny.

Looking back at some major plays he made during day one, finding stuff I missed or felt needed to be re-iterated:

His interaction with Selkies in 30/31 feels…. Forced. As does 35. 35 he states that to him, Matt appears to be trying to read ghost, which is a pro-town thing. But then in 53 he states Selkies and Matt are both scumreads. The flip from scummy to town to scummy was never explained, and his posts don’t seem to be in the RVS mindset.

Jumping ahead past lots of one-liners with little content, we get to 531, with the “vig this shit” line. This didn’t get noticed much at all until MsM pointed it out much later, but upon re-reading it feels icky, like a green hiccup taste. Him playing it off as a frustration joke in 741 feels icky too.
669, self-meta is bad, excplaining one’s own scum-meta as a response to why they’re not scum is worse.

989 is a discredit of Thad’s case about wagon analysis instead of actually responding to it
I’ve already covered 1097, but he’s got three flips to go off of, and is making excuses for not actively scumhunting.

~BC

PS: (Selkies you can't get every read right but it’s okay. More than willing to play the sorting game though. What did you have in mind?)

Given I think Orcinus has a reasonably solid town read on Demon I'm a little hesitant if it comes down to voting him, but he has become a person of interest.

I have a tendency to think Mara's scummy almost every time we play. I feel like I can read HD on his own, but he didn't play this game enough for me to get much of a sense of him. Given all the cross-confirmations about some of these roles or role modifiers or whatever the hell dreamwalking and channeling are, I'm not willing to lynch her today.

I've changed my mind about SoO after rereading him one more time and am back to leaning town. He's another I'd like to talk with Orcinus about.

Given the size of this game, I just simply don't have enough scum reads and that worries me.

Re your PS, a wrong read from me is a scum tell according to Majiffy.

Not that he'll follow my vote, though :/

Selkies · Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:41 am

GCBC do you feel like MsM and ThAd's claimed roles are mutually exclusive in a game this size?

Selkies · Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:03 am

In post 1119, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:Selkies, the other head may feel otherwise, but yes. For both of them to be town with their claimed roles, and with the risk of doing some setup speculation here, scum would have to either have a strongman kill ability, a roleblocker that hits before the ability to commute, or both. I certainly wouldn’t devise a setup like that, though. The sheer amount of claimed commuters personally makes me doubt the odd one out. Hence my current vote.

I am not as sure. Which of these assumptions are false, given what has been shared? Can they all be true and one of ThAd and MsM still be scum?

- dreamwalking is dangerous: MsM and Ghostlin confirmed that bad stuff could happen on day 1. Ghostlin died apparently from something that happened while dreawmwalking.
- dreamwalking makes other abilities unuseable: MsM said that she couldn't doc-protect and dreamwalk at the same time, and chose the dreamwalking as personal protection from most night actions that dreamwalking affords.
- ThAd's character claim is a major good guy in the series. Not a for sure that Mat or whoever wouldn't have been reserved as a safe claim for scum
- ThAd's foxglove w/e lets him detect some kinds of night actions targeting him. Beli confirmed this fits the flavor?

Although that kind of detection makes as much sense for scum as for town I guess, what about the flavor? Would a bad guy have it?

tbh wanting both these claimed roles in the game another night is my best argument for voting demon today. :/

Selkies · Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:21 am

Hi demon

fery and I are not agreeing on GCBC

Talk to us

Selkies · Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:24 am

In post 1141, Selkies wrote:Hi demon

fery and I are not agreeing on GCBC

Talk to us

Hey demon less than 2 days left to nightfall. Any time now would be good.

- f

Selkies · Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:16 am

In post 1145, Demon wrote:We're leaning town on Iecerint. Orcinus has a stronger scum read on GCBC than I do. Mostly I just feel like they aren't scumhunting as hard as I believe BC is capable of.

We'll vote ThAd if it comes to that or No Lynch. Orcinus is not as unhappy with that option as I am.

I'm getting a little worried that Nero seems not to be that stuck into the game day 2. He's mostly pushed lynches that aren't likely to go through today (amrun and us/Selkies).

Though I think his meta reasons for reading the fferyllt half of Selkies as scummy make sense from a town-Nero perspective. I play differently depending on my hydra partner, their game style and their availability to synch up. So I dunno, he's still essentially sidelining his vote.

We're leaning town on Iecerint. Orcinus has a stronger scum read on GCBC than I do. Mostly I just feel like they aren't scumhunting as hard as I believe BC is capable of.

We'll vote ThAd if it comes to that or No Lynch. Orcinus is not as unhappy with that option as I am.

I'm getting a little worried that Nero seems not to be that stuck into the game day 2. He's mostly pushed lynches that aren't likely to go through today (amrun and us/Selkies).

Though I think his meta reasons for reading the fferyllt half of Selkies as scummy make sense from a town-Nero perspective. I play differently depending on my hydra partner, their game style and their availability to synch up. So I dunno, he's still essentially sidelining his vote.

Selkies · Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:38 am

In post 1148, Demon wrote:I read Thads play as pretty town this day..and I've nothing'd Nero's play the whole game.

Totally forgot about Beli and swords though..so much to catch up on.

My read on ThAd is mixed. He comes off town sometimes.

I'm feeling pretty good about swords atm, though I had a back and forth moment. Won't be interested in voting him today. Or in voting Beli to a lesser extent.

It's kinda freaking me out that there apparently are so many PRs.

Selkies · Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:24 pm

In post 1151, Amrun wrote:
In post 1149, Selkies wrote:It's kinda freaking me out that there apparently are so many PRs.
One of these things is not like the other

One of these things just doesn't belong~

What little I understand of your role suggests two of these things are not like the others.

Selkies · Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:31 pm

VOTE: ThAd

This is the most dissonant vote we have put down in our short and eventful history as a hydra.

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:54 am

In post 1161, ThAdmiral wrote:
In post 1156, Selkies wrote:VOTE: ThAd

This is the most dissonant vote we have put down in our short and eventful history as a hydra.
Which one doesn't want to lynch me?

Whoever you are it is time to take this control of this hydra (by force if necessary) and make the right call!

Me, fferyllt. Nero sums it up pretty well. I like neither of the main wagons, nor the Demon wagon. If I had an idea for a better lynch I would be pushing it.

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:56 am

More rereading today.

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:59 am

I think orcinus and I were wrong about iece today. And I think we are right about GCBC.

It's a circumstantial case, though, and it hinges upon the BC head of the hydra more than the GC head.

Their participation and interaction with other players has been off. They have built cases on relatively weak-stanced and vulnerable players, with one glaring exception. I'm talking about Milk, SoO and ThAd. GC accuses Demon of setting up lynches while in the same post as the accusation, he sets up lynches. They posted meta about Milk's scum game and failed to mention there was Iece scum meta in the exact same thread they pulled Milk meta from.

They are coasting on a day one town read.

Iece is the relatively weak an vulnerable player they have not pushed on

This is from memory. I will have time in 4-5 hours to document, expand and possibly refute or correct stuff if my memory is wrong about any of these points.

UNVOTE: ThAd

VOTE: GCBC

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:21 am

hi, this is the 'bad cop' of selkies

I have a way of reading hydras where I only focus on the head that I have meta with/on, and that in this case is you, Cabd.

I don't blame you for tunneling thad today. I personally don't think that tunneling is scummy. But your recalcitrance to proactively interact with other people is.

Talk to me about that.

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:35 am

11:32 ew
11:33 i'm never typing a game post while watching game of thrones ever again

in other news

what if i accuse you of not having the town-minded will to win that you exhibit in most of your other games

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:47 am

Why are you drawing attention to a small speech habit in the manner in which I ask my questions

Do you have something you would like to say

And what is your second scum read, after thAd

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:50 am

And fery and I both have more experience with you than the other head and I believe she's played with you substantially

and I'm pretty sure you just dodged that question with a "lol shit man you don't know me/haven't played with me enough" which is scummy as all hell

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:54 am

oh yeah and

11:51 "I am playing differently because I am a PR and I worry about being NK'd more"
11:51 "I am now going to softclaim PR while I'm at it for virtually no effect"

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:59 am

you have not been interacting with demon, just threw a scum read in his direction and called it a day

i don't find that town-cabd

English isn't my first language thanks for asking. i hope it are not too un-understandable

yeah soz, fery had mafia convos with you and that's what I'm thinking about

why did you PR claim

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:12 am

Also we do not think you are reacting appropriately to the bad situation that town is in right now

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:15 am

we might be disagreeing on that issue

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:29 am

In post 1166, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:Selkies, there’s a reason I’ve been on Thad the entire day. My role gives me reason to not believe his claim. I really didn’t want to reveal anything, but that’s how it is. His “and something else” could clarify it, or make it even more damning, I dunno.

You can ask GC about his SOO case, because in case you’ve forgotten, I wasn’t all for it.

I did meta-dive Iece, but his play here has been seen in both his town game and his scum game. Would you like to discuss it?

Yeah, you were the one on milkshake. And not alone in that.

In post 1175, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:I'm not seeing how I "dodged" that question but by all means, you can ask for clarity on it. You're wrong, because I still want to win. If the way I've chosen to play this hydra makes me look scummy, so be it. This is my first shot at playing a hydra and I'm really restraining myself because I've seen what a mess a hydra that can't keep its shit togetehr does to threads.

Let's not talk about Squared. :/

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:34 am

In post 1178, Selkies wrote:Also we do not think you are reacting appropriately to the bad situation that town is in right now

^^ that was orcinus. From my perspective, if what you say, that your role makes you sure that ThAd is lyning, then working to get him lynched is the pro-town thing to do. What we're having trouble with is your tone - yours, not so much GC's. And I can see where being unexpectedly called out when the front-guy is not around would be disconcerting. But, it happens and as part of a hydra you have to roll with it.

GC said something about lynching MsM next if ThAd turns out to be town. This worries me given that you're saying you have reason to feel sure ThAd is scum.

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:40 am

In post 1184, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 1163, Selkies wrote:Nero sums it up pretty well. I like neither of the main wagons, nor the Demon wagon. If I had an idea for a better lynch I would be pushing it.
And yet you are blasting me for "sidelining my vote"? WTF is this shit?

Blasting? No. I've said I get where your vote is coming from given our prior interactions. I think this game is going to be my baseline for future games with you.

Your post from earlier this morning captured a lot of my frustrations about this game day.

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:28 am

I'll be around in about a half hour. Will digest this and reply then.

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:14 am

In post 1186, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:Back from the “quaint” library I was servicing. You still here to talk, selkies?

In post 1178, Selkies wrote:Also we do not think you are reacting appropriately to the bad situation that town is in right now
While mislynching day one was indeed bad, I fail to see how that makes it a bad situation we’re in. We’re going to lynch scum in Thad today.

You are much more sanguine about today's lynch than I am.

In post 1179, Selkies wrote:we might be disagreeing on that issue
Well you’re both welcome to talk to me about it.
In post 1180, Selkies wrote:
In post 1166, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:Selkies, there’s a reason I’ve been on Thad the entire day. My role gives me reason to not believe his claim. I really didn’t want to reveal anything, but that’s how it is. His “and something else” could clarify it, or make it even more damning, I dunno.

You can ask GC about his SOO case, because in case you’ve forgotten, I wasn’t all for it.

I did meta-dive Iece, but his play here has been seen in both his town game and his scum game. Would you like to discuss it?
Yeah, you were the one on milkshake. And not alone in that.

In post 1175, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:I'm not seeing how I "dodged" that question but by all means, you can ask for clarity on it. You're wrong, because I still want to win. If the way I've chosen to play this hydra makes me look scummy, so be it. This is my first shot at playing a hydra and I'm really restraining myself because I've seen what a mess a hydra that can't keep its shit togetehr does to threads.
Let's not talk about Squared. :/
What about milkshake? Milkshake was playing like scum, and it surprised the hell out of me to see her(?) flip town.

That flip did not surprise me. Not after the 24 hours prior to deadline.

But how about your iece meta?

Also I thought you might pick up on the squred reference.

Squared was the most obvious, but not the only possible reference. :/

In post 1181, Selkies wrote:
In post 1178, Selkies wrote:Also we do not think you are reacting appropriately to the bad situation that town is in right now
^^ that was orcinus. From my perspective, if what you say, that your role makes you sure that ThAd is lyning, then working to get him lynched is the pro-town thing to do. What we're having trouble with is your tone - yours, not so much GC's. And I can see where being unexpectedly called out when the front-guy is not around would be disconcerting. But, it happens and as part of a hydra you have to roll with it.
Yeah, it feels weird. But it’s okay. I can switch it up to chatting with you like this.

In post 1181, Selkies wrote: GC said something about lynching MsM next if ThAd turns out to be town. This worries me given that you're saying you have reason to feel sure ThAd is scum.
Our specific role interacts with the game state such that it’s impossible in our eyes for the setup to make sense with both a pseudo self-watching commuter and a dreamwalking doctor to make sense. Thad’s makes a lot less sense than Mara’s, hence the vote and his insistence, however, in the case of thad flipping town, our role all but 100% confirms mara is scum. I’d rather not fullclaim but I will if I have to. There’s a good reason I’m not suspicious of amrun, too. Her claim makes perfect sense given my rolecard.

Ok. This makes a little more sense of that insistence that if one isn't scum the other must be. But, can you see why it looked like setting up lynches in the same post where setting up lynches was described as scummy?

Actually when he gets back he’s probably gonna be pissed that I even mentioned our role.

I need to look back through your convo with orcinus. I don't remember who your next pick for scum was. How many are in your scumpile right now?

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:33 am

In post 1189, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:Did you want to talk about that now? Orci didn’t seem to care.

Yes I do.

UNVOTE: GCBC

VOTE: ThAd

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:45 am

Mini 881?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=12697

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:54 am

The first thing I noticed - and this is without actually reading - is just the density of the posts in this game compared to that one. Far more paragraph/multi paragraph posts in this game than in 881. When you get into the text itself, he's much more humorous and conversational in the other game. Which could be attributable to the player lists. Lots of EBWOPs in that game, too, which suggests a townish lack of rereading and rethinking before hitting the submit button.

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:58 am

OTOH catch-up posts are usually longer, and he had some catch-up periods in this game.

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:06 am

Also Gay mafia II http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=24354

He replaced in around page 18 or so. Did some catch up posts.

I'll switch over to mainstream and come back to this one.

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:19 am

In post 1197, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:Okay now this is interesting. Go check out Mainstream Mafia.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=25981

Now, without spoilering yourself, take a guess when he went from town aligned to cult, given his ISO.

Based purely on post length I thought things changed around post 760. 2368 he started posting wallz, and I think that correlates with the day he was lynched.

and a look at the set up QT confirms Day 2 recruitment.

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:32 am

Going back to Gay Mafia:

catch up wallz aren't unusual when replacing in. Full reads list, but unsupported, though there was a huge post full of questions and comments just before it.

Aggressive looking posts early on - direct and negative.

oddity. 1383 is a bolded vote. 2017 is a vote bbcode. Don't often see people mix those formats.

whole string of gifs after that. odd.

The role claim looks quite carefully crafted based on the length and the formatting.

p-edit re posts with only a vote, it seemed to be a mix of those and votes in with some content. But, for the most part they aren't votes with cases. Or votes near cases.

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:47 am

In post 1205, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:Mainstream Mafia:

930 was his first post as cult instead of town. Total 180 in posting style from day 1 and 2 to day 3 and on.

I see that.

So what are your thoughts about this game in comparison to the others?

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:56 am

I am not sure. 881 is pretty different in tone, but it's an older game. I'll have a look at a more recent town game. Maybe I can find a town game he replaced in to. That might be a better type of town game to compare this one to.

Selkies · Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:18 pm

If ThAd is town, GCBC needs some serious scrutiny tomorrow.

Selkies · Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:02 pm

Amrun investigated MattP.

In post 1020, Amrun wrote:
In post 1018, Iecerint wrote:HMMMMMMMMM

VOTE: Amrun

This is mainly sheeping Nero, but it's also coming off of Amrun's "I think I might know why he thinks this" post, too. I think this is consistent with Amrun perceiving that the night game may have implicated her as scum and crumbing for an alternate-history story.

This is frustrating for me because I have Nero as gutscum outside of the Nero->Amrun thing that's happened today BUT what'd'ya do...
Obviously, you're right. I wasn't really crumbing, though, I was outright saying.

I'm obviously some flavor of PR, so I may as well say it. I targeted Matt last night so I thought Nero tracked me. It would have to be that, because if he watched Matt, he would have seen at least one other person because I most certainly did not kill him.

I didn't think Matt would die last night because of his inactivity.

I was ALARMED by this because he concluded SK. In my mind, seeing someone visit someone dead and concluding SK was like WUT. I was really confused, because my gut reaction was to say only scum would do this, but I wasn't sure my gut reaction made sense, especially since it wasn't confirmed that's why he thought it.

As it turns out, that's NOT why he thought it, but I'm still unsure what that means. His reasoning is pretty loopy, to me, and the fact that he now seems to be backtracking and including mafia is a possibility confuses me more. If he had started out of the gate with that it would have been a lot more straight forward, but that isn't the case.

At first I thought that post about SoO being town TOWN Toooooowwwwwnnn or w/e was the investigation, but I remembered she thought Nero had tracked her.

Selkies · Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:06 pm

During the night phase, Orcinus and I read GCBC's scum game, WWE Believe in the Shield. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=28017

The difference in play between that game and this one is pretty significant. I'm comfortable calling GCBC town, but check the iso for yourselves and see what you think.

Selkies · Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:15 pm

We did not dreamwalk.

We areceived a device from an anonymous party on night 1. The device gave us a one shot redirect ability with a ton of restrictions. We used it on another player on night 2. We'll wait a bit before we say who we targeted.

Due to some adroit breadcrumbing we know who sent us the device and that player is obviously town to us.

Selkies · Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:23 pm

Oh for fucks sake. I read that game for nothing? Augh.

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:32 am

Don't be silly.

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:41 am

Reading that game and not noticing an underscore was dumb, not silly.

And it's not why you think we are scum. You had your vote on us yesterday.

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:22 am

if it helps at all, i was the one who bought the game up to fery (this is orc just btw)

also, we think Nero is town because of similar meta'ing done last night

(this is mostly me again)

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:37 am

In post 1249, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:Makes less certain but still good odds of scum, if you didn't walk. Let me get a few things nailed down and then I'll reveal what's going on.

How is this going?

Mara, name your targeted player last night please.

Yeah, this.

Also, this could be mylo if there are 3 scum. But, orcinus and I are wondering about a dreamwalker SK - which would suck for the DW SK if eveyrbody who can dreamwalk is taking Beli's advice.

We're thinking it may be mass claim time. If we do mass claim, I want demon to go first.

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:48 am

look through any one of nero's scum games

he's really transparent

1). forced use of flippancy and a complete 180 in tone
2). very demotivated. replaced out twice, scumhunts and tries to help far less than he is in this game

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:18 am

I don't know how orcinus found the thread. He IMed me the link and I read it. We were going over it shortly before the site crashed.

Nero, explain how this could be anything other than a dumb mistake? If we knew we were isoing someone else, what would possess me to post it? On what planet would I expect no one to notice?

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:33 am

In post 1259, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 1253, Belisarius wrote:
In post 1250, Nero Cain wrote:That's kind of hard to believe that Fery wouldn't notice the difrence in user name.
Not at all, it's very subtle.

The difference in avatar is not so subtle, but viewing that as a scumtell is pretty fatuous.
The avatar has nothing to do with it. A simple click of our GCBC's topics would tell you this is wrong. This is like the dumbest shit ever.

you are actually the most ridiculously easy mislynch to push right now

it really is a pity we're not scum this game

-o

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:10 am

As scum

- f

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:47 am

In post 1264, sword_of_omens wrote:have you read 90's cartoon Maf?

I did not. IIRC the scum game I scanned was more recent than last summer.

I read his iso in that game. Do you think this game looks similar?

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:33 am

orcinus and I were both posting at roughly the same time earlier today, and in fact it was orcinus who posted 1258, which I think is the post you were asking about.

What seemed odd about the timing?

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:17 pm

In post 1268, sword_of_omens wrote:the statement of a town read on him seemed out of place for me...
i can touch on it and explain later, however,
i'm wondering if it might not be a bad idea to mass claim, after all...

i would also like to hear from MsM first on who she targetted last night...

orcinus and I have different reasons for thinking he's town. My reasons are primarily about a game we both played as hydrae and both had scum reads on each other. Unlike this game, I was out of the gate very aggressive (might have had something to do with my hydra partner). In this game, orcinus did his usual RVS thing and I stayed out of the fray for the most part until Ghostlin role claimed.

Nero's day 1 play in this game was very similar to that game, and my suspicion bled over because (as I think I mentioned on day 1) I associate his style of play in both games with scum - narrative control and linking up his scum read with whoever another player suspects.

I eventually decided in this game that the narrative control stuff is likely town behavior in Nero. And the difference in my gamestyle between the two games would be adequate reason for him to suspect me in this game since I was town in the other game.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=28429

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:08 pm

In post 1276, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:You know what? Fuck waiting for demon.

I'm Perrin Aybara. My golden eyes (that's the ability name) allows me to have wolves follow a player and tell me who if anyone at all, visited them. The issue I am having is this:

I targeted Selkies last night. I got back a note from the mod saying my wolves were unable to locate selkies. I cleared it up with the mod, and had I been re-directed, I would have been told that my wolves could not find "new target name here" or "my wolves say X Y Z visit new target name here"

The only reason I could have seen for that was that Selkies dream walked last night. But Selkies just said they did not. Therefore, selkies is a liar.
VOTE: SELKIES

That makes no sense.

We are able to dreamwalk, but we haven't done it at all in this game so far because we can't do anything else when we dreamwalk. Last night we had to choose between dreamwalk, our other ability, and using the redirector device we were given on night 1.

I'll say who we used it on, though I'd like to hear from that player beforehand.

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:10 pm

Also, I'm not saying who gave us the device, though the breadcrumb was pretty obvious. I am hoping it wasn't a one-time thing and they were able to pass out another gift to someone on night 2.

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:11 pm

In post 1280, Nero Cain wrote:And why do you want to hear from me?

We didn't use it on you.

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:16 pm

You'll have to wait for orcinus on that one. He didn't link me to games where you replaced out.

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:31 pm

I would actually rather wait for orcinus before role claiming, but given GCBC's results we'll need to anyway.

Our name is gwene al'Vere,

We are a Town Channeler, Dreamer and Dreamwalker.

The dreamer part is prophetic dreams, and is investigative. We can choose a player to dream about and we'll get back one random ability the player has. The example given in our role pm was a vigilante doctor. We'd get back either "killing" or "protecting" with 50% chance of either. We would not get back anything alignment oriented.

Night 1 we chose to dream about ThAd. We got back that we tried to dream, but couldn't, i.e., no result. When he role claimed, we knew that the bit about being some sort of commuter was probably accurate. It's why I was pretty reluctant about lynching him, though that confirmation wasn't a guarantee that he was town.

Night 2 we decided to use the redirect. We planned to do both that and dream, but found out that we couldn't do both in the same night when we sent in our actions.

So, either GCBC is lying, or we were the target of some other action that took precedence.

I don't think BC would have initiated all those meta dives with me late day 1 as some sort of set up.

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:27 pm

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go demotivated+flippant tone
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go demotivated
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go demotivated despite attempts to show otherwise

That's my point, TAM. You've seen my scumplay (and so has Monkey) and both of you know that I'm not being a lurky coward this game. I'll pull up your quotes here in a bit.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go contentless
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go distanced from game
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go shit play.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go flaked out
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go look at that insane dedication on red's side
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go flippancy in tone

i can't find that second replace out and i'm thinking that i misread it as a hydra

whatever

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:32 pm

nero's scumplay has definitely been getting better but he's still transparent as fuck

not a very good scum player

re: replace out, sure okay we only have one data point but look at it. In the town game you played at the same time, you were night killed on night 1

so

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:38 pm

In post 1276, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:You know what? Fuck waiting for demon.

I'm Perrin Aybara. My golden eyes (that's the ability name) allows me to have wolves follow a player and tell me who if anyone at all, visited them. The issue I am having is this:

I targeted Selkies last night. I got back a note from the mod saying my wolves were unable to locate selkies. I cleared it up with the mod, and had I been re-directed, I would have been told that my wolves could not find "new target name here" or "my wolves say X Y Z visit new target name here"

The only reason I could have seen for that was that Selkies dream walked last night. But Selkies just said they did not. Therefore, selkies is a liar.
VOTE: SELKIES

fery thinks you were roleblocked

i think you are scum

re how i found the wwe game--it was nominated for a scummy

so you can get your fucking act together now

VOTE: demon

i wanted to do this yesterday

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:44 pm

In post 1272, Ms Marangal wrote:I love that game, The Sugar Cain hydra was a fun one.

also, I protected Amrun last night so I think Scum have a Strong-man or something to bypass my protection.

Pedit: Nero...

no one has pushed for your lynch yet

despite a claimed doctor being alive at day 3

if scum were leaving you alive to be mislynched they would've pushed for you by now

also this is scum covering up for a tracker/watcher

VOTE: marangal

Selkies · Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:58 pm

i had a brainwave

Selkies · Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:44 am

In post 1293, Ms Marangal wrote:also, Orci saying that no one has pushed for my lynch yet is a complete lie. I was pushed yesterday, and alot of people agreed that I should be pushed, who's to say that none of them were mafia?

why aren't you giving names

demon claims

also, looking at what he stated yesterday, it looks like he was setting me up to be lynched today so that his team could win. He wanted to leave me alone and sort me out later, doesn't push me despite thinking that I was likely scum regardless of my claim D1. My vote is likely to go there, but I don't want scum to quick-lynch if I am wrong about them.

remember hard boiled

1v1'ing me is a baaaaaaaad idea

Nero Cain wrote:Orc, using the WWE game and not realizing that it was not this GCBC is still dumb as fuck.

vote:Mara

Your play overall: C+

Selkies · Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:47 am

In post 1293, Ms Marangal wrote:also half of the the players today havn't even posted, and the day just started so we don't even know if the mafia team are even on and the fact that he's using this logic at this point is strange.

Oh yeah

right

SOO, Nero, us, you, GCBC, Beli have posted

Demon and Iece have not

2/8=1/2 HMMMMMMMM

oh please you're flailing.

Selkies · Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:49 am

and when the fuck did you have a town read on beli

LYNCHLYNCHLYNCH

i don't actually think there's a need for claims today since marangal is sort of y'know scum.

Selkies · Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:46 am

Given day 2, I think it's going to take a vote or two on Demon to summon him.

One of the reasons (quite possibly fallacious) I haven't wanted to go after Mara since her full claim late day 1 was because her mix of abilities matched ours: channeler, dreamwalker, and something else.

GCBC were you the third dreamwalker in that QT on night 1?

- f

Selkies · Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:38 am

In post 1303, Demon wrote:?

Massclaims a good idea but I'm not going first, have fun with that?

No. You need to claim now.

- f

Selkies · Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:16 am

VOTE: Demon

- f

Selkies · Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:54 am

GCBC - WE targeted ThAd and failed.

And Demon needs to get back in here and claim.

- f

Selkies · Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:08 am

In post 1308, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:Is this a loaded question? N1 we watched Amrun with no one targeting her. N2 we watched you and got a failed result.

Sorry, missed this question at my first read because I am kinda focused on Demon.

I asked because Mara's 3rd person on the n1 qt is still a question mark, and if someone I think is town was that 3rd person, then it impacts my read of her.

Orcinus thinks she scum and has a good case IMO. I'm still in data acquisition mode because I am coming up with more questions over time, and not as many answers as I'd hope for.

Orcinus also thinks you are scum because he sees this as a blatant fake claim at MYLO.

Maybe it is. But, I came away from day 2 with a town sense from BC (due to the meta exploration he initiated) and I trust a strong read more than a game state full of questions, so I'm not proceeding from that starting point today.

Will you me get a claim out of Demon?

Selkies · Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:10 am

^^ will you

help

me get a claim out of Demon?

Selkies · Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:40 am

There's an interesing correlation between votes and replies with him.

Our vote won't be moving before he claims. It moving afterwards is contingent on what he claims.

Selkies · Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:43 am

We targeted you last night. Now, please claim.

Selkies · Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:02 pm

If the reason you couldn't investigate me has a town origin, I have a guess who it would be. But, tbh I am not expecting a town origin.

Nero or Iece, one of you go next please. Order is not that important IMO.

Selkies · Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:18 pm

In post 1320, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:Selkies, I will still re-vote you in a heartbeat if the massclaim does not provide a valid reason as to why my role would have failed on you, but...

see here

this is willing obliviousness by scum

if GCBC were actually town he would be considering "HMMM SCUM HAVE PRs"

but he's not considering that

so he's not town

*shrug*

Selkies · Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:19 pm

demon->iece->whoever.

Selkies · Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:26 pm

I mean, let's think about GCBC's logic for a minute

he claims that he did not get a result on us after targeting us last night. we deny that we dreamwalked.

So first off

In post 1244, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:Selkies, you dreamwalked last night, right? This is of HUGE importance. If you did we've got confoscum, I'm pretty damn sure.

~BC

if we did dreamwalk, who the fuck is confscum? esp. since dreamwalking isn't necessarily an exclusively town action

secondly, how does his not getting a result make us scum? he's saying that "oh yes you dreamwalked but you said that you didn't"

well hello that's fucking stupid. if we were scum and dreamwalked, why wouldn't we own up to fucking dreamwalking. it's not something that's alignment indicative and probably even gives us towncred. especially since GCBC completely fucked up that claim with "oh yeah hurr durr tell me you dreamwalked we have confscum". Well, sure, I can tell you that I dreamwalked, and then you can go off and find your 'confscum' lmao.

thirdly,

why the bloody fuck is he not even considering the possibility of a RB

I mean, hello

Selkies · Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:29 pm

In post 1318, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:Does anyone here have mod-meta on ceph? I'm starting to wonder if fakeclaims here are VI-type as in "ask the mod when you're ready for one, and then you get it in a few hours" as that would certainly explain what is going on with the repeated refusals to claim from demon.

we tried this a long time ago and if you were actually town you could go check out cephrir's modded games and find out that there is nothing prior to this with flavor or anything that would require mod help in a fakeclaim

Selkies · Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:35 pm

In post 1298, Ms Marangal wrote:Because I don't remember people, aside from Amrun and Demon, that actually pushed my lynch really, really Hard. Swords advocated for my lynch I think, and so did Thad and I'm pretty sure more people were pushing for me to get lynched

Demon? Pushing your lynch?

He voted you twice and then left it there, useless shit that he is

Amrun and thAd already flipped town so obviously that doesn't work. Swords is pretty much conftown from where we're sitting.

yeah, I remember hard-boiled and I remember you not trying to back down from the 1v1 either.

Scenario here is different than the Scenario there.

Just stop trying to 1v1 me when you're scum and i'm town it doesn't work

the 1/2 of the player base didn't post yet was an exaggeration, but my point is there.

no it isn't

I had a nullish read on beli for the majority of the game, and the fact that I have stronger scum reads make him possible town

so you don't have a town read on beli.

Funny how you comment on how I got my town-read on Beli and not Nero when I had treated them both the same the entire game

In post 658, Ms Marangal wrote:Belisarius-Null
Nero Cain-town-lean

Selkies · Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:39 am

Pick one at random or something. There's a disturbing lack of activity given the circumstances.

Selkies · Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:56 am

pls hold back the same stuff I'm holding back until Demon claims.

I know I don't

Selkies · Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:57 am

ugh submit instead of preview

I know I don't *need* to say that, but I gotta.

Selkies · Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:19 am

SoO I left the same crumb in my first post of day 2. I obviously saw yours given my next post after it.

I really can't add much to my reasoning about my part of the Nero Cain read since my last post about it. As far as coincidence goes, in a game with so many PRs they're pretty much inevitable.

Also, haha! I told orcinus the a'Dam meant we probably have an inventor when we got the PM at the start of Day 2.

Selkies · Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:57 pm

Issue the first - SoO gave Nero a a gift of some kind of ring last night - read his claim. I think Nero thought I gave him the whatchamagig because I was talking about having targeted someone.

I cannot help you with your second issue. I know what we did. If our action on demon affected you I'm clueless as to how.

Do you think it is a good idea for me to say whether we redirected Demon toward you?

Selkies · Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:05 pm

The only thing I can see as an issue is that it reduces or increases the moving parts that Demon's claim needs to account for.

Selkies · Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:10 pm

I meant the mafia role "inventor" Mara. I had no idea if there was a story character who was an actual inventor. I'm still not sure.

I've used inventors in game designs before. In only one case was the role assigned to an actual "inventor" and that was Hank Reardon in an Atlas Shrugged game. In other cases the "inventor" was a blacksmith, an artist, and Merlin.

Selkies · Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:13 pm

I did not direct him at you.

Selkies · Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:20 pm

In post 1346, Ms Marangal wrote:... I still don't get how a'Dam means inventor

The name of the device wasn't what made me think inventor. It was receiving an anonymous gift that conveyed a one-shot ability. That's how the mafia inventor role works.

Selkies · Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:21 pm

Wiki page: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Inventor

Selkies · Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:30 pm

If it turns out that the redirect did nothing useful then I'm going to be pretty annoyed that we didn't use the dream ability instead.

There was simply no way we'd have dreamwalked last night. I will take the possibility of obtaining info over commuting/neighboring or whatever it is that dreamwalking translates to in mafia terms any time I have that kind of choice.

The only thing that would potentially trump getting information would be a vig shot.

Selkies · Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:32 pm

In post 1350, Ms Marangal wrote:I know how the inventor role works, but I still don't see it's connection with a'Dam

There is no connection with the name. The connection is with what the a'Dam does, which is a one shot redirect.

I feel like we're talking past each other.

Selkies · Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:45 pm

Read it. Mollie was obvscum.

Totally different level of activity. He was involved and actively trying to figure the game out.

To answer Mara's earlier question, I think the reason he hssn't been quickhammered is because he's scum.

Selkies · Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:04 am

Demon.

Selkies · Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:06 am

That I am not saying until demon claims.

Selkies · Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:14 pm

In post 1366, Demon wrote:well im a roleblocker

In post 1367, Demon wrote:and a 1shot lightning rod

Demon, who have you roleblocked on N1 and N2? What about the lightning rod?

Selkies · Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:22 pm

And I redirected your action to you.

-------------------------

flavor experts,

after I sent the night action PM to Cephrir, I got back a reply to the effect that if it wasn't clear whether a night action could be directed back upon itself, he would use flavor to tie-break.

So, go crazy with the flavor and tell me if an a'Dan redirect could change the target of rand al'thor's role block.

Selkies · Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:23 pm

This game is making my head hurt.

Selkies · Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:41 pm

One more thing. I knew I needed to check another PM.

When I received the a'Dan I was told that it works on One Powers only.

Would the roleblock be a One Power?

Selkies · Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:15 pm

ffs where did everybody go?

Selkies · Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:17 pm

In post 1375, sword_of_omens wrote:Rand uses the
OP
...so the redirect should have worked...he should have roleblocked himself...
Also..he would have been the 3rd person in the dreamwalk with Mara, considering he said he HAD a 1 shot dreamwalk...

OP = One Power?

Selkies · Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:19 pm

In post 1380, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:I'm still here but I know ziltch on flavor.

How about we just look at both scenarios and what they mean?

If the redirect failed then a lot of shit is explained about night 1.

If the redirect worked, then the number of questions just exploded. And so will my head.

Selkies · Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:19 pm

Not night 1. Night 2.

Selkies · Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:39 pm

My experience with self-roleblock situations is all off-site. In nearly every instance where self-roleblock (and self-jailkeep for that matter) could have voluntarily or involuntarily happened, it was disallowed. In the extremely rare cases where it was allowed to happen, the allowance was due to the game flavor.

Selkies · Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:24 pm

Well, we can keep posting endless speculations, but I'm hoping that the wise ones who know this flavor well will convene an Entmoot and tell us if the claimed night action results fit what everyone has claimed to have done.

I agree that demon waiting until nearly all the puzzle pieces were in place before posting his claim in dribs and drabs is troubling.

I think Nero still needs to claim.

Selkies · Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:04 pm

In post 1389, Iecerint wrote:
In post 1373, Selkies wrote:So, go crazy with the flavor and tell me if an a'Dan redirect could change the target of rand al'thor's role block.
One point is that a'dams are gender-specific. There are some a'dams that only work on females, and some that can only work on males, and be used by males/females.

So if your a'dam only worked on female channelers, it could be that it would not work on Rand, since he does not use the female half of the OP.

There is nothing in my PM Q&A about the a'Dan that mentions a gender restriction. Going back through the PM convos I did find that the redirect would fail if a player is not allowed to target themselves as well as it only working on One Powers.

"OP" = One Power?

What is missing from demon's flavor claim?

Selkies · Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:52 pm

Ok, so on to the bigger question. Do you think demon is town?

Selkies · Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:53 pm

^^ to all, not only the flavor experts.

Selkies · Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:27 pm

Yes?

Who do you think is scum?

Selkies · Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:28 pm

lol no preview on that because new page.

Selkies · Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:22 am

I am fine with either demon/mara going today

they are the two scum

one of iece or gcbc is the last one

nero you should've counterclaimed.

nero i am very concerned about you being retarded and lynching us later so you need to talk to me about that. why are we scum?

Selkies · Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:54 am

TBH I don't think no-lynch will make for better info/better lynch tomorrow in terms of the NK. What night 3 will bring is more data from the claimed night actions.

Selkies · Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:55 am

In post 1408, Belisarius wrote:I'm pretty sure about Demon and GCBC being scum together, with Mara as the most likely third. I'm not interested in lynching Selkies or Iece.

However, we are in mylo, so I think we need to at least talk about no lynching. Conventional wisdom indicates it's the correct move in this case.

I have to wonder if it's really going to help though -- Nobody seems particularly interested in lynching SoO, Nero or I, so the scum could safely NK any of us without affecting the next town-directed lynch.

Counterarguments?

Re Demon and GCBC being scum together, I can see a case for that, but it involves some serious entanglements on their part. So, MYLO...entanglements be damned, just make that lynch happen. But, it's a pseudo MYLO because protective roles and dreamwalking, though that would have been unknown at the point that a hypothetical scum-GCBC was setting up a case for my lynch. If Mara is scum, then the scum team probably thought that a counterclaim was off the table by day 3.

Also, I kinda think that this slot is not the best target for a mislynch set-up. Neither of us are all that easy to mislynch when we get our dander up. But, I'm not sure who would have been a better choice. Kinda depends on who of the lynch-possibles isn't scum. It could be that we looked VT, though. Prior to today, I was working pretty hard at looking ignorant of the specific mechanics behind dreamwalking and channeling.

Re two protective roles, Selkies played in a micro game (the much loved borkgame) that had a doctor and a one-shot bullet-proof. We were the third PR, an innocent child. The set up turned out to be insanely townsided and we were basically in an autowin situation after day 3. The set up was meant to stir town paranoia, I think. But, it didn't work out that way.

So, I'm not totally discounting the possibility of two protective roles.

Orcinus, on the other hand, is going with scum-Mara.

BTW I think that dreamwalking is a terrible idea for all of town now that we've role-claimed, unless I misunderstood Mara's story about the dreamwalker QT.

Selkies · Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:12 am

In post 1413, Iecerint wrote:@Selkies - I think that Demon is town IFF he took the action he has claimed. This is because scum blocking GCBC last night doesn't really make much sense with a claimed doc and a claimed cop AFAICT.

I hate his claim, though. Really scummy circumstances. I could see a Demon/GCBC/Nero team based on today's events (i.e., Demon claimed after everyone but Nero, Nero already has connections to GCBC, GCBC originated the "null result" claim). But IIRC GCBC pushed Demon yesterday in the 3-way vote, so I need to think more about this.

I've played with Nero lots and don't get the same "this is townNero" from his play that you seem to have gotten, but you seem pretty set on it.

I haven't played with Nero lots. I have one completed game where I misread the Nero/Mara hydra as scum the one day I was in the game, and then continued to misread them all the way up to their cardflip. But, I saw a ton of similarities between that game and day 1 of this one. Since then, not as much, but this game has way more moving parts than that one did, and he wasn't a PR in the other game.

I develop and go with baselines on very little experiential meta, though, which has its dangers, but I try not to be dogmatic about it and ignore contradicting evidence. A strong case for scum-Nero would sway me at least a little.

Selkies · Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:14 am

In post 1418, Demon wrote:
In post 1407, Selkies wrote:they are the two scum
????

That was orcinus. We're not completely eye-to-eye on Mara.

Your play today puts me in the "demon is scum" camp, but I'm still questioning and weighing.

What did you guys talk about on the dreamwalk QT?

Selkies · Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:16 am

In post 1420, Demon wrote:If I'm not fucking obvtown because of my claim (HINT: I AM BECAUSE I HAVENT GIVEN A SHIT ABOUT THIS IN A LONG TIME AND THINKING OF A CLAIM THIS ELABORATE WOULDNT BE ON MY FUCKING LIST OF THINGS TO DO) then town needs to reevaluate how incongruous itd be for me to pull this out.

Waiting until everyone else but Nero had claimed and GCBC had talked me out of all the info I was willing to give up about the redirect prior to your claiming doesn't inspire confidence.

Selkies · Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:34 am

I'm not saying they helped you write it. I'm saying you waited until the available information about what your claim had to account for was as complete as it was going to get.

Selkies · Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:35 am

Demon, who do you think are scum?

Selkies · Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:47 am

In post 1426, Demon wrote:...Because I anticipated that you guys would speculate like that?

I don't understand this.

In post 1427, Demon wrote:I think Mara/Iece/GCBC. Strangely enough I'd rather get Iece/GCBC today because I've been feeling a lot more confident about that. My backups go between Nero/Beli. But I have Beli as likely town. I have you as town. Swords as town.

What's your basis for thinking Iece and GCBC are scum?

Selkies · Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:32 am

Demon, I am looking for reason to change my read. Help me out here.

Selkies · Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:54 am

Did GCBC ever explain how their role suggested ThAD had to be scum?

Selkies · Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:16 am

In post 1308, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:Here he claims he watched himself. I have the watcher role and initially thought there was no way there are two watchers but decided to hold off on the counter-claim.

Found it, and thought this might be what you are thinking about. But, it's a weak form of watching with no ability to target, and apparently no information about who visited him. I think he would have claimed who visited if he knew it before the lynch if not as part of his role claim.

We have the same odd ability doubling with doc and bodyguard. Orcinus and I keep going around on this because it seems like the game would be almost broken if those two keep protecting each other, unless there's something about the mechanics/roles to prevent it.

What would happen if Mara protected Nero AND Nero bodyguarded Mara AND Mara were targeted for kill?

With dreamwalking/roleblocking/lightning rod the possibility of mutual protection was pretty remote prior to mass claim. And even after claim, those two roles (if both town) would be likely to suspect each other.

Selkies · Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:12 am

In post 1437, Iecerint wrote:They would block the doc.

Filed under "Things that make you go hmm".

- f

Selkies · Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:21 am

In post 1439, Selkies wrote:
In post 1437, Iecerint wrote:They would block the doc.
Filed under "Things that make you go hmm".

- f

The particulars of why Iece's post made me go "hmm".

In post 1272, Ms Marangal wrote:I love that game, The Sugar Cain hydra was a fun one.

also, I protected Amrun last night so I think Scum have a Strong-man
or something to bypass my protection.

Pedit: Nero...

And that made me remember another post.

In post 1065, Ms Marangal wrote:Did you seriously claim, under very little pressure when your main argument against me for being scum was the fact that I pre-maturely claimed before deadline at L-3? Why is my claim a scum claim and yours a town one?

and yes, my doctor abilities are weakened. I either protect myself from being targeted, or I protect someone else.

also, Having dream walkers, a commuter, and a Doc seems odd though it's likely that scum have some very powerful abilities as well.
maybe a few strong-man abilities or something to compensate for the massive amount of protection roles.

Thad's role seems off, though I like how he was able to see what I kinda saw in Demon to which, demon just brushed off to the side. I really don't see why people have Demon as town at all

So, you may wonder, would Mara think so far ahead as scum? Yes, yes she would.

Or was this a plot of GCBC/Demon's doing to set up my mislynch today, and the redirect, while giving orcinus and me the leverage to force a claim, did not actually change the night's outcome at all.

Either way, we need to lynch Demon.

From there, I think it gets murky.

Then again, this is day 3 and I have a longstanding tradition of becoming a molten pool of paranoid snark on day 3.

Selkies · Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:24 am

I went back to check the PM from the mod about our night one action. We were told that we tried to dream about ThAd but couldn't. We assumed the fail was due to his commuting, but hell if I understand the flavor reasons why dreaming about him would or woudln't fail.

Selkies · Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:41 am

We had no dream results about anybody on night 1, so I don't see how it could be a nexus effect.

Selkies · Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:54 am

This game makes my head hurt. Would he have to specify that action to use the nexus on n1?

My night actions were either/or. But they're both also volitional, as was choosing to use the A'Dam.

Selkies · Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:58 am

That could be one loose end accounted for then.

Selkies · Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:54 am

In post 1474, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 1472, GoodCop_BadCop wrote: You’re a body guard with a delayed death should your protect be successful. Essentially, a bodyguard but with a bit of extra power. Is this correct?
yes

But you didn’t claim day one when mara claimed doc. Nor did you claim D2 when she lived through the night. But day three, during massclaim, you claim bodyguard but not your exact role until you get pushed on. First you’re a bodyguard, then a doc (bodyguard that won’t die is a doc folks) then modified bodyguard. This worries me greatly.

Nero, can you clarify with more detail exactly why you chose to wait until D3 to claim?
'cause there wasn't a reason to claim? I already specifically stated that a claim from me would nothing but more then outguessing the mod which is something that I'm not interested in. Why do you think that I didn't protect Mara night 2? There's reason for scum to not kill certain roles 'cause it creates a lot of WIFOM.

I never claimed Doc. I told the truth b/c I DON'T die that night like a normal BG.

Why do you think that SOO would know to ask me about that?

Is there any way at all that the A'Dam maker/giver could be scum? Because, I'm considering SoO all but confirmed town on the basis of getting that gift N1 and him crumbing it D2.

Selkies · Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:57 am

If both bodyguard and doctor are in the game then there has to be something in your role mechanics that prevent you from forming a cross-protected cell of night time invulnerability.

Selkies · Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:04 am

In post 1477, Nero Cain wrote:So scum don't crumb? That's a dumb argument. Inventors are usually town but a mod would have the ability to make a scum inventor.

Why do you think that SOO knew to ask my about weather I lived or died? That seems funky as hell to me.

I could have asked the same question. I've seen bodyguard variants that are essentially doctors, and I've used such variants in past games on other forums because I am an evil game designer and moderator. I'm aware that current site meta at MS has all but eliminated this variant because someone bitched to me about the variant no longer being in the MS wiki a year or two ago.

Selkies · Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:07 am

But to your question about whether the inventor could be scum, a few things...

- like I asked is there any way the inventor character would be scum? Or is there another "inventor" candidate that could make the claim a fake-claim?

- Why would scum give town a one-shot like a redirect?

Selkies · Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:10 am

In post 1479, Nero Cain wrote:but I didn't claim any modifications but he still knew to ask me about them?

just seems weird to me. Anyways, moar Mara votes.

The first time I ran into a claimed bodyguard at MS I asked her enough questions to figure out what sort of bodyguard she was claiming. She seemed shocked that I wouldn't know how a bodyguard is supposed to work.

Then the next day she revealed that she was really a doctor.

The only reason I'm not tearing both of you apart atm is because I think we need to lynch Demon today.

Selkies · Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:16 am

[quote=Nero Cain post_id=5078361 time=1372881604 user_id=12589]So scum don't crumb? That's a dumb argument. Inventors are usually town but a mod would have the ability to make a scum inventor.

Why do you think that SOO knew to ask my about weather I lived or died? That seems funky as hell to me.[/quote]

Seemed to be implied in the bolded, Nero. If you're not questioning whether SoO is town, I'm not sure what you are doing?

Selkies · Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:16 am

holy shit runaway bold

Selkies · Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:22 am

In post 1485, sword_of_omens wrote:
In post 1475, Selkies wrote:Is there any way at all that the A'Dam maker/giver could be scum? Because, I'm considering SoO all but confirmed town on the basis of getting that gift N1 and him crumbing it D2.
Yes, there are scum inventors...90's Cartoon Maf had one...
this should not be the only reason i am town to you...

I'm talking about in this flavor, not in general.

And no, it's not the only reason but it's a pretty big hurdle if that is what Nero is tryring to get at.

Selkies · Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:37 am

In post 1487, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 1483, Selkies wrote:
In post 1477, Nero Cain wrote:So scum don't crumb? That's a dumb argument. Inventors are usually town but a mod would have the ability to make a scum inventor.

Why do you think that SOO knew to ask my about weather I lived or died? That seems funky as hell to me.
Seemed to be implied in the bolded, Nero. If you're not questioning whether SoO is town, I'm not sure what you are doing?

I guess that maybe I could see it that way. But it was a reply to your "I'm townreading SOO 'cause he crumbed. And its not an impossibility for scum to crumb, maybe less likely but not impossible.[/quote]
It's not impossible. And if scum-SoO is giving townies presents, then of course he'd crumb. And the timing of his crumb - right after I voted him on d2 - makes equal sense whether he is town or scum, I guess.

Btw your reply to my day 2 crumb-post telling me I was being stupid made me wonder if you were the inventor. :/

Selkies · Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:29 am

In post 1498, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 1494, Iecerint wrote:Because you're scum, and probably not with Mara?

ThAd's flip wouldn't have provided you any additional information if you already thought all three of you were plausibly town.
I'm on the verge on tears 'cause you are so dumb. There's no way that I'm scum. But you've pretty much made up your mind that I'm scum s even if Demon does flip scum then town has no chance of winning so thank you for being a 4th member of the scum team.

Even if I'm wrong and demon is scum then one of Selk/GCBC is probs a buddy that's bussing/distancing.

I was town reading Demon 'cause Mara was attacking him. Maybe that's a sign of buddy play, idk.

Selk, why do you think that its a stretch for me to suspect a scum a scum inventor? Not that I do but why do you think that would be a stretch?

I don't see how you get me as a possible buddy of demon.

I think a scum inventor in this game is a stretch because of the one-shot power(s?) involved. Giving town a redirect device is asking for trouble from a scum perspective. Worst case I could have redirected the scum night kill onto scum. Because that was precisely what I hoped to do.

Selkies · Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:38 am

In post 1500, Nero Cain wrote:You really think that Demon is scum and he doesn't have a buddy on his wagon?

No, I doubt that. But I don't see how you figure me for his buddy. I'm the one who wanted votes on him so he'd fucking claim. I redirected him on himself because over night 2 orcinus and I decided he was our top pick for scum. I can see thinking that we are scum and are trying to force a mislynch on demon. I cannot see how you'd conclude we could be scumbuddies.

So do you think its just a two-man team with a dreamwalk SK?

No, I don't.

Selkies · Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:56 am

We are leaning GCBC but it's not a strong lean right now. The stuff about not finding us on N2 could have been a set-up to get us mislynched. If it's a set up, it could have worked if not for the inventor/A'Dam/redirect stuff.

Selkies · Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:37 am

GCBC who else do you think are scum?

Selkies · Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:58 am

In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5088659#p5088659]post 1517[/url], fferyllt wrote:
In post 1516, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:Toss up between Mara/Nero.

~GC
So you think there are only two scum?

:/

Selkies · Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:08 am

In post 1518, GoodCop_BadCop wrote:No, you asked who else I think it scum. I think its highly likely you and Demon are scum together with your claims working together while the third being between Nero/Mara. BC/Cabd is out of town, so I can't collaborate nor speak with him, but that is the impression I am getting post re-read.

~GC

And we are thinking you could be scum for the same reasons - the dovetailing of your original claim/case with demon's eventual role/night action claim. Our mislynch today would have been convenient.

I'm hoping things will become more clear once demon's card flips.

Selkies · Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:56 am

You're certainly wrong. Don't know if you're wrong about Iece.

More later.

Selkies · Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:38 am

Nero, what is your current case on us as scum?

Selkies · Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:50 am

Actually, never mind.

Orcinus and I have agreed to VOTE: Ms Marangal

Selkies · Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:09 am

Nero, if that didn't lose the game, then plz think about what can be learned from the investigative roles. I don't exactly trust GCBC, but it's possible they are town. Our activity cop dreamer action is a weak investigation in terms of finding scum, but could turn up something useful. The thing I hate is leaving a roleblocker I think is scum alive for night 3, but Emking has made me a little uncertain about that read.

Do what you think makes sense.

Selkies · Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:44 pm

Investigated/dreamed about GCBC. Result came back as "investigative".

Selkies · Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:45 pm

VOTE: Iecerint

I don't think orcinus will disagree.

Selkies · Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:32 pm

Empking who did you block last night?

Selkies · Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:00 pm

hi guys it's iece/emp

sorry for the retarded trolleywagon on gcbc

peace out

Selkies · Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:05 am

In post 1561, Empking wrote:
In post 1560, Belisarius wrote:
In post 1558, Empking wrote:
In post 1555, Selkies wrote:Empking who did you block last night?
I didn't do anything last night. I believe in GB's claim; it supports what I believed yesterday. Obviously I don't think I'm scum; I think Selkie's quick change of vote yesterday didn't seem like what an ignorant townie would do.

Belis: Have you seen, seen used, the 'rule of three before'.
I haven't used it before, but I've had it correctly used against me. Lost D2 in a newbie game.
Link?

GC: I didn't think my power that I had left was best used last night. Seeing your good result suggests to me that I was right.

You considered blocking GC again?

Selkies · Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:35 am

It's not Sword.

It's probably not you. There is a small corner of gibbering paranoia about you guys, but it's locked away.

Iece was on the Emp wagon, which gives me a little bit of pause about Emp beng scum. Orcinus feels strongly that he's scum, based on Demon's day 3 play and POE.

There's an outside chance it could be Beli, but I've been reading him as town since mid-day 1 and there has been no reason to revisit that.

Selkies · Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:09 pm

In post 1567, Iecerint wrote:Well, I didn't take any action last night,
not even an action at Nero
, so I don't see any shenanigans that could have led GCBC to get that kind of result on me.

VOTE: GCBC

That's an interesting turn of phrase. According to your role claim, you used up your one-shot motivator action on night 2.

Not that it isn't pretty clear you're lying anyway.