Mini 1468: Legends of the Hidden Temple- Game Over!

[Grimgroove]

I have townreads on Amrun,

lol bye

[Grimgroove]

@Grim
Explain your vote on NS after AP voted him.

Also you are being so wishy-washy with your NS stance. One minute he's town, the next he's scum, the next he's a compromise lynch, the next he's useless. Remember what I said about NS/Grim not working? Yeah, that's out the window since he's obviously just going with the popular opinion.

I'm not wishy-washy.
He is a complete nullread. Is this surprising to you? He posted 11 times in total. The kind moderator just told is there more than a hundred posts a day in this game. How you can have a clear read on him is beyond me, but that fact you're so certain he's scum, could actually mùean he is and you're bussing your useless partner for some towncred.

It's true I haven't been very fixed to my vote. That mainly had to do with my reads on the other people in the pool, especially Wisdom. Nobody Special has always been a target of compromise. I called his inactivity scummy, yes, but I guess what I should have said was "anti-town". AP then proceeded to tell me it's NS's meta anyway, so not much is to be gotten from that. Whenever I had a scumread in the lynchpool, I voted that read. Whenever I felt there was a lack of alternatives, I voted NS.

This is also where I stand now. I've got strong townreads on AP and Venmar. Wisdom I'm still not sure, but I let him AtE get to me and see where it gets us. Somehow I'm feeling more confident about him town again, but it goes in waves. It depends on him acting dickish towards me and bringing up wacky scenarios. I have the impression the feeling is mutual.

[Grimgroove]

@Elyse's 1262:

1. I didn't vote a townread. I just explained you my postion on NS. So I did not do that.

Point 2 = Point 3, you're inflating your "case".

Could you point me where I did that? I don't remember.
But I explained you what happened in general in 1260 whenever moving my vote to NS, so that's probably what happened here as well: I dropped my scumread on AP and did not see a scummy alternative in the lynchpool at the time.

[Grimgroove]

oh no here we go again

Like I said, I don't exactly remember.
But ok, so I explained it in 886: AP wasn't an option for the time because it would put him at L-1 too soon, so I went for the always present alternative NS, to see where that would lead to.

[Grimgroove]

Yes.
I am doing that now, as we speak, as well.
And so are you.

I don't see the problem or the importance of that point.

[Grimgroove]

He was a preference out of the lynchpool, but not strong enough to put him at L-1, which should lead you to conclude the scumread was not as strong as you're making it out to be.
So I didn't have a better alternative,b ecause I did not wish to put him at L-1, and at the time I believed my vote was better behind the name of a lurker than simply nowhere.

[Grimgroove]

Off to bed!

[Grimgroove]

Toink

VOTE: Amrun

[Grimgroove]

Because that is how the English language works. "Explain why he said he has a town read on you." "I can't."

This only happened after I asked you the question. The fact I had to prompt you to do this, is already telling in itself.
And evena fter the prompt you were considerably vague. Instead of saying "No.", you said "Even if I could, I wouldn't", which is simply not an answer.

[Grimgroove]

Ps "even if I could" means that I can't which means "I don't know" which is an answer.

lol

lynchplz

*licks the window*

[Grimgroove]

And after that Elyse needs to go.
I did what Amrun said she would do, and noticed how in the NS-wagon Elyse was already sure and certain that Nobody Special was scum, despite the glaring lack of content from his side.

Yes, yes, three scum in a row?

*drools on window*

*licks window some more*

[Grimgroove]

Any word on the red QT?

[Grimgroove]

Ok.

So I was like "

I'll assume you're town

and I'll post my thoughts because I'm not going to give you that much anyway if you're scum."

And then Safety was like "Well if you're town that would turn this into a Mason pairing I think and that would make it easier. Not sure on numbers what the likelihood would be. I should read the OP but can a mafia pair even in a QT like this be possible? 12 players, 6 teams, 3-4 scum, so two all-town teams?"

It seems to me like he's working off the assumption that scum aren't doubled up in teams, which he would know if he was scum.

The thing in bold: Whut? Why would you do that?

His conclusion that this would become a Mason pairing is faulty, because you have no mutual confirmation that you're town. Him implying he already has such a strong townread on you is scummy.

The question about scum pairing, I don't know, seems like a pointless question to ask regardless of alignment.

SafetyDance: Do you confirm this conversation taking place?

If it did, I might have to re-assess my views on elyse.

[Grimgroove]

Yeah. So I can see the scenario where Safety-scum knows there's a 2scum pairing (enomis & Amrun), and exactly because he has this knowledge in mind he thinks of that question to ask, in order to appear town. So if anything, I think that points to the existence of 2scum pairing rather than the opposite, given Safety is scum ofc.

Agreed.

[Grimgroove]

The current state of the title always reminds me of this song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmcA9LIIXWw

Proceed.

(I don't care who goes first, Amrun, enomis or Safety Dance, but, well, I prefer Amrun to go first because I'm kind of proud of what I found.)

[Grimgroove]

I can't discuss any ongoing games, but I have reasons not consider this a crucial argument.

[Grimgroove]

The current state of the title always reminds me of this song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmcA9LIIXWw

Proceed.

(I don't care who goes first, Amrun, enomis or Safety Dance, but, well, I prefer Amrun to go first because I'm kind of proud of what I found.)

is this real because even you abandoned "what you found" because it is nonsensical. Both of you acknowledge I didn't know what wisdom meant, which means that what you found cannot be true.

I never did such a thing. I am still the same idiot of yesterday.

[Grimgroove]

enomis is definitely right about one thing, I should post here a lot less.
Looking at the activity overview it's quite painfully obvious we (including Wisdom) have been overbearing. And to what result?
I was already fearing it would be stifling to gameplay, and evidently it was, and given the little results all this talk has garnered, I will try to resist the urge to post as abundantly as before, and will also take this lesson to other games.
It did get me a firm scumread on Amrun though. I at least want to make that count. So good luck talking me out of that one.

enomis not having any scumreads isn't exactly encouraging though. NS said the same thing.

[Grimgroove]

Their QT-talk does sound rather genuine though, so I'm less confident in the idea that they are both scum. A hypothesis I had before.
This is mainly good news for enomis.

[Grimgroove]

It seems, throughout this game, there has been an awful lot of idiotic and acid-trippy arguments thrown your way, Amrun. Do you think it might be a conspiracy?

For the record, what are your reads? Could you do something similar as enomis, or point us to where you did that in case you already did?

[Grimgroove]

Do you think it's possible Amrun and enomis are scum together? It would be quite a feat to invent such a qt-conversation, no?

[Grimgroove]

Join the club!

[Grimgroove]

My reads are quite obvious, and I've commented on everyone several times.

But yes, I will gather them all into one post before everything is said and done.

I think it would be good if you got to this asap. You saw how it convinced others to townread enomis. Why are you waiting to try out something similar? Hmm?

Hmmmmm?

[Grimgroove]

P-edit: maybe because I'm not terribly interested in being town read

HMMM?

I'm not home, and I'm not on my computer, and I'm not doing it on my phone.

I chuckled
At least I'm having a laugh with this game. About time too.

Anyway, being read as town is just as important as scumhunting, definitely in a nightless. Having confirmed town prevents mislynches and leads to correct one through PoE.

.

[Grimgroove]

Oh yeah Amrun I forgot to mention her.

She's been quite contradicting and scummy the past few pages. I feel her arguments are very unnecessary and she always writes off her accuser with something like "that's retarded" or "can you speak english?".

The only quip I have, which is similar to SC and the QT thing, is that she thought there were three scum initially. Yes, I know she's experienced enough to have planted it, but she's been consistently derpy about the setup so I'm having a hard time letting that go.

And yeah I'll link you to that post hold on.

I'm impressed you remember that. I had completely forgotten about this "townslip".
Hmm.
Hmmmmm.

[Grimgroove]

Is it advisable to read something into Elyse remembering it?
If Amrun flips scum, it could have been a conscious scum strategy, and Elyse could be scum for actually remembering it for that reason.

Well, just posting my train of thought here, I guess I shouldn't blame anyone for actually remembering what happens inhere, but somehow the contradt between Elyse's apparent involvement and still remembering this, strikes me as odd.

Hmm.

[Grimgroove]

Is it advisable to read something into Elyse remembering it?
If Amrun flips scum, it could have been a conscious scum strategy, and Elyse could be scum for actually remembering it for that reason.

Well, just posting my train of thought here, I guess I shouldn't blame anyone for actually remembering what happens inhere, but somehow the contradt between Elyse's apparent involvement and still remembering this, strikes me as odd.

Hmm.

You can actually ignore this argument and forget I even made it. Even if this is the case, there's no way to prove it. Nor to refute it.

See, this is exactly why I should post less.

[Grimgroove]

@Elyse:

Why did you say "obviously we're both not scum" in the middle of that QT?

[Grimgroove]

Elyse: Yeah this game is annoying Grim posts like eighty walls at a time.

[Grimgroove]

Seeing as how no one yet has gotten towncred for challenging, AND how the challenge pool was agreed upon yesterday, why would challenging give me towncred, exactly?

It worked just fine for Majiffy.

[Grimgroove]

@Elyse:

Why did you say "obviously we're both not scum" in the middle of that QT?

And Grim, we were talking about our alignments.

That doesn't even remotely answer the question. You said: we're "obviously" both not scum, meaning you thought/said he was "obviously" not scum. Why?

[Grimgroove]

Me glad!

[Grimgroove]

Amrun, your reads?

[Grimgroove]

I might be down to just save Haschel the SD replacement.

Me too.
Also for the replacement's sake, imagine catching up with 60 pages and get lynched immediately afterwards.
PoE has obviously proven not to be watertight because we seem to be lacking scum-suspects now, but at least he's still in there.
This is nightless so we can get to Amrun later at minimal cost.

[Grimgroove]

Yes, that's the least scummy way of looking at things, well done.
But it's very bothersome and requires patience. And faith that a replacement will be willing to do this.

[Grimgroove]

Welcome and good luck!

VOTE: qwints

[Grimgroove]

just kidding, just wanted to sound bad-ass

VOTE: Amrun

[Grimgroove]

Ten additional pages and I'm suddenly a top-suspect again?

Lynch Amrun first and you'll see she's been full of bullshit.

Even if we're wrong, she'll be the lynch we learn from the most.

If we're wrong, well, you can try and get my lynched all you want. Amrun's flip will absolve me.

Going to catch up now to see what shit you guys actually have on me!

Amrun, good job pressuring newbtown! (uh-oh, AtE)

[Grimgroove]

I don't think there's much use in quoting Amrun's wall about my behavior during the NS-lynch, but if you read the happenings yourself, you'll see this is a subtle mix between misrep and choosing interpretations of events wisely.

I'll just tell you exactly what happened, with my point of view of town, and that's described in post 1260.

So I'm just going to bother to reply to what Amrun had tos ay about that one, because every comment before that was adressed by this reply.

Amrun said to 1260

He says he didn't vote a town read but he called NS town shortly before voting for him for the first time. He says he didn't have a scum read, despite calling NS scum. He has to go out of his way to explain that NS was nothing but a compromise vote, ever, because it doesn't really make much sense.

This is simply not true.
NS was indeed a null-read. I really don't see how this comes as a surprise, given he had only posted 11 times. If anything is surprising, it's how Elyse basically already seemed to "know" NS wasn't going to flip town, and only after insistance by Wisdom was preprared to consider the thought he wasn't scum, resulting Wisdom to enter Elyse's possbiel scumreads.
But I digress.
So NS was null. Yes, I thought I saw some townishness in his last post, where he said he really had no idea who to call scum anymore and how he was at a complete loss. To me this sounded honest. It gave him townpoints. It didn't make him town. One post like that obviously does not make you town.
I also never called him scum. When removing my vote from Wisdom I said this, in 1239:

I'd feel bad about letting you slide once again in case you do end up being scum, but I'd feel worse

if

you're actual town having put a lot of effort in this game and letting Nobody Special being lurksack lazy scum with 11 posts live on. Somehow doesn't seem fair

Notice the word in bold.
This choice for moving my vote was me simply being pragmatic about things.
Both were equally possibly scum in my eyes at that point, but given Wisdom's activity you'd know there will be further chances to read him and catch him.
Like many correctly said, what Nobody Secpail had given us at that point, was probably all that he was going to give us even if we had kept him alive.

If anyone has been open about their thought-processes, it's me. I jot everything I'm thinking down, no filter, resulting in lots of posts and lots of walls. This is probably what Amrun was referring to when saying this:

Oh, and grim, the blood of righteousness has nothing to do with you and saying it did is a huge stretch.

Also I don't mean to imply that you're defenseless. You do, however, fall under a certain category of newer players that behave a certain way (until they gain some experience). You're also pretty sensitive. It has very little to do with you and everything to do with Majiffy's motivations.

I see now how I'm behaving like a newbie under a certain category. I think and I post it. Wisdom falls under a similar category, though I'm not sure he thinks as much as I do, looking at some of his posts. (:mrgreen:, just kidding, sounded funny)
Who is always consistent in their thoughts? Who never changes his mind about something? Exactly.
So yes, it is very easy to make my posts look like someone who is being opportunistic in his ideas, especially when ISO'ing me. But my thoughts are not meant to be read in ISO, they're meant to be read in context. And the context explains perfectly why I change my mind about certain things.
Amrun KNOWS this. And she's trying to cash in on it.

Also look at her 456, and how she feels about picking on the newbie. This is exactly what she's doing here, in her times of distress. How mean.

Grim is an NS buddy. I'll bet my life on it, and at this point, I pretty much want to die because no one will take me seriously until I do. WHEN I FLIP TOWN, DO NOT FORGOT THAT GRIM IS NS' BUDDY. DO NOT FORGET IT. KILL HIM.

If you're talking about your "life" within the realms of this game, I'm very willing to take that bet.
If you're talknig about anything else, I hope for your sake the devil is not listening.

I'm not a betting man so I'll stick to what I think: Amrun just pulled together some scraps of my thoughts and molded them together nicely in an image of me being a waffling scumbag, trying to do everything possible to evade an NS lynch, and then to decide to bus him after all. This is only one interpretation. Amrun knows tihs is an interpretation. Betting her life on something based on a "case" like that, is just a plain and simple AtE. Nothing more.

The thing is, I can't make sense out of any scumteam that doesn't have Amrun in it.

I know this won't be doing much good to my case, but I'm starting to get the creepy feeling we've been giving a free-pass to both Majiffy (his challenge) and AngryPidgeon (his real-life anecdotes) a bit too easily. %Ajiffy admitted to me somewhere he busses his partners hard, so the Nobody Special-lynch doesn't teach us anything in this regard. The man is certainly capable of taking matters in his own hands and directing a game, and considering how we're running out of scum-candidates, tihs might be a sign some attention should be brought back to him. Angry Pidgeon's obsession with me makes me feel very uneasy. It has never been adequatelly backed up.


PS: Did Amrun give her full list of reads yet?

[Grimgroove]

Contniuing the catch-up now.

[Grimgroove]

AP I don't know how the fuck you see the slightest town motivation in qwints, please sit down and reread.

How about him being open about everything and his attitude basically being that he has nothing to hide?

Oh, how I wish you were talking about me here

[Grimgroove]

Anyway I don't know why I'm arguing this with you.

A very nice summary of everything.

[Grimgroove]

Grimgroove is scum. I really don't even need to explain that fact to anyone.

Why the fuck would you not need to explain that?
I advise you to explain it before you lynch me, because afterwards you'll feel like too much of an idiot to actually explain it, which will make you seem scummy as a result.
Explain it now, for your own sake.

[Grimgroove]

Nooo, ap, i wanna lynch qwintz

Why oh why would that be

[Grimgroove]

Nope AP, we're lynching qwints today.

NEIN!

The only reason you removed your scumread from Amrun is that god-awful analysis of hers with regards to the NS-wagon.
That is it.
You are either in the same boat with her, trying to pull the same shit you did when giving her that easy townread over her involvement in the Venmar reaction-test (= NOTHING).
Or you're being rash and impulsive again.

Lynch Amrun Wisdom. Look into your heart.

[Grimgroove]

I didn't avoid the NS wagon. I actually started it, though eventually unvoted in order to vote for AP.

This is a lie. Amrun never voted for NS.

Juicy!

[Grimgroove]

Mollie is town, her posts are of such a genuinity (guinineness?) that they cannot be faked. It is impossible to do.

The problem with Majiffy for me is that he's impossible to read, even when succesful lynches occur. His forceful character makes him as difficult to read as Nobody Special's silent one.

Now that you're here, explain why your townread on Amrun is more than what I made it out to be, and tell me why Amrun is not an option for a lynch anymore?

[Grimgroove]

Holy fuck people. Grim is scum,

Please elaborate.

[Grimgroove]

He read 60 pages in a time-span of two hours.

Wisdom, can you honestly say, with the hand on your heart, that you have not spouted bullshit at any point during this game?

PS: I wouldn't be surprised that qwints is also scum. But I'm not lynching him today. Amrun is far more important, if only for my self-preservation.

If Amrun is still there the next daystage, I will challenge her myself.

Given how several people scumread me, it should be acceptable to consensus. I think pitting us against each other could clarify a lot of leanings, certainly after flips.

But in a way we already are pitted against each other. I want her lynched. LYNCHED. With lots of fire.

[Grimgroove]

Mollie is town, her posts are of such a genuinity (guinineness?) that they cannot be faked. It is impossible to do.

yeah no. Go read some of her games before saying such crap.

As if this game alone isn't giving me enough to read

Yeah, no, i'm not going to do that.

You'll have to accept my gut on that.

Gut means "good" in German.

Good gut!
Gute Gott.

[Grimgroove]

If Amrun is still there the next daystage, I will challenge her myself.

Good. We lynch the obvscum today, then you do that.

IF

She must die today though.

[Grimgroove]

WISDOM

Now that you're here, explain why your townread on Amrun is more than what I made it out to be, and tell me why Amrun is not an option for a lynch anymore?

[Grimgroove]

Yes, last time you told me to do that it just showed that you hadn't.

Let's try something else:

1754: confirm/deny?

[Grimgroove]

That's not scum behavior. That behavior of town who is convinced that Amrun is scum.
You were there, with the reactiontest-Amrun-townread fiasco. How can you possibly forget that context?
It's similar to betting your life on it, but less AtE-ish.

Is Angry Pidgeon scum for having his mind set on lynching me now?
Are you scum for having your mind set on lynching me now?

NEIN!

[Grimgroove]

Yes, replying to the marginal elements of my argumentation will surely not get us derailed and piss off the other players with yet another senseless stream of discussions.

Do you agree that a lynch on Amrun would clarify a lot more than a lynch on qwints?

[Grimgroove]

Because you THINK they're scum.

You used to think Amrun was scum. Think about those reasons for doing so. Let them float back to you.

You seem to have a very chronological mind. You just insist on the most recent arguments being correct, and forget about the old ones.

Your scumread on me is not backed-up as strongly as you claim it to be. And yet it is that scumread that results in you townreading Amrun, ignoring everything you had on her before that.

If anything, Amrun's flip will teach YOU a lot. About how your brain works, and stuff.

[Grimgroove]

I agree with the sentiment. This game feels like a clogged artery.
Lynching Amrun will allow the blood to move about freely again, in a spirit of understanding and a realisation that all will be well.

[Grimgroove]

Instructions unclear; lost too many brain cells contemplating what's going on in your head.

[Grimgroove]

My reads change sometimes.
Is that so wrong?

[Grimgroove]

Grim is town who had a nullread on Nobody Special after 40+ pages and therefore didn't mind lynching him.

[Grimgroove]

No idea.
I even have no idea who the scumteam is if she's scum.

This is my current guess:
Amrun-Elyse-AngryPidgeon-qwints

with Wisdom as a possible replacement for one of the last two.

If Amrun is not scum, the only team I could think of somehow is:

Majiffy-enomis-qwints-AngryPidgeon

with Wisdom as a possible replacement for the last two.

Venmar and pirate_mollie are my two strongest townreads, so it is not a coincidence they are not included in any of the lists.

[Grimgroove]

Ah.
Yes.
Friday is coming at its close, it's been a tiresome week.
So:

Amrun-Elyse (I think the connection between those two is quite obvious) -qwints or AngryPidgeon

or, but ONLY AND ONLY IF!!! Amrun does not flip scum:

Majiffy-enomis-qwints or AngryPidgeon

Wisdom could go in any team really. Or none. Hm.

[Grimgroove]

It's not something I can pinpoint through exact exchanges right now, maybe later, but the feel I'm getting is that they agree with each other a lot and keep off of each others backs. There's not much interaction between them aside from when they push on the same people and don't push on each other.

You have Elyse in none of your possible scumteams. Does this mean you townread her?

[Grimgroove]

Because of the QT-things she shared, right?

[Grimgroove]

BTW, does anyone have ANY idea what that was all about?
None of the people actually responded to the question, but the question in itself, come on...

Once again... you cannot lynch wisdom today.

...

What if I try really really hard?

Even then.

What is your opinion on 2-scum teams?

Same question to mollie. What is your opinion on 2-scum teams?

I mean, even if you are seriously wondering about this question, it suffices to look at the moderator's opening posts.

Am I the only one who think Amrun is consciously trying to play stupid here? And this is already the second time in this topic when the game set-up is considered.

[Grimgroove]

@Grim
No, because of her 1245, 1247, 1249. Scum that know their buddy is flipping scum don't act this way.

I have a diametrically opposing view on this event.

[Grimgroove]

IF Amrun scum:

Amrun, Wisdom, Enomis(poe)

If Amrun town:

Grim, Venmar, Enomis.

You make a good point.

UNVOTE: Amrun
VOTE: Enomis

:-s

[Grimgroove]

VOTE: Nobody Special

Even if only to spur him towards more content. He can't stay in hiding forever.

Don't have an especially strong townread on any of the four anymore. AngryPidgeon is my preference, but not enough to put him at L-1 already. Elyse and amrun on his wagon aren't exactly reassuring either.

Based on lurking + null reads + his summary of a QT? That doesn't make any sense.

Is the statement under the quote related to the quote? If so, could you please clarify?

[Grimgroove]

No based on his posts being genuine and transparent.

If pirate_mollie is capable of doing those as scum (according to you), why not enomis?

[Grimgroove]

Because I know for a fact mollie is able to fake anything,

[Grimgroove]

The saddest thing about this is that I'm not even a teenager.

[Grimgroove]

Grim, who was it that was calling you a newb early on?

Majiffy, pirate_mollie, Amrun all spring to mind.
There might have been others but I forget.

[Grimgroove]

enomis what is your read on qwints?

Scummy, i agree with you about the notes thing being bullshit.

But other than that, really nothing atm.

I need to interact with people man. Other than you.

You can interact with Amrun.


BY HAMMERING HER!

[Grimgroove]

Please do try to get a read on her, at least.

[Grimgroove]

VOTE: Nobody Special

Even if only to spur him towards more content. He can't stay in hiding forever.

Don't have an especially strong townread on any of the four anymore. AngryPidgeon is my preference, but not enough to put him at L-1 already. Elyse and amrun on his wagon aren't exactly reassuring either.

Ya this is a scumpost. Hes not willing to vote someone he thinks is scum and hes overly focused on getting NS to generate content when a singular vote on NS is not going to do that. And if you look at his tone, he clearly doesnt care about me getting lynched immediately. Theres no urgency "GUYS WE NEED TO GET NS IN HERE TO MAKE A GOOD DECISION" but rather "Im just gonna posture over here on NS for a bit, go ahead and mislynch pidgeon without me guys ". And hes even distancing from my wagon by calling out people on it at THE SAME TIME. If it was really his preferred wagon he wouldn't be voting a nonentity and casting doubt on the people pushing me. Thats bullshit.

How many more times are you going to bring up that post? Isn't this thread full enough already that we should try to avoid repeating ourselves? I've already adequately adressed your criticsm on this post before. I've already explained to you how my "preference" was only relative, how it wasn't a clear-cut scumread, and blahblahblah. And here you are, ripping it all out of context again. Bad boy.
I'm done explaining my position in the NS-lynch until I'm actually in the lynchpool because this is truly ridiculous and exhausting. To anyone who is willing to read it is perfectly clear.

[Grimgroove]

Amrun is far more important, if only for my self-preservation.

If Amrun is still there the next daystage, I will challenge her myself.

Oh god this just gives me all sorts of chills. An Amrun scumflip does not conf-town you by any stretch of the imagination and Im not sure why you would think it does.

Maybe I don't think it does, and maybe I'm trying to implant this idea into your subconscious, rendering you powerless in the face of my evil manipulative skills!

HAHAHAHAHA.

no

It is so, because it is Obvious.

Hey Amrun, will you challenge me if you're still around for the next daystage?

Calling you out, yo!

[Grimgroove]

See 1844? Tell me that stuff ain't genuine! How on earth would you fake something like that?

I can see why Majiffy was so pissed off with me for not townreading pirate_mollie earlier. Once you get to know her a bit, it does look pretty easy.

[Grimgroove]

AngryPidgeon, who would you challenge (hypothetically speaking) in the next round?

[Grimgroove]

Just wanted to feel special. I'm spending a lonely Friday night here.

And I hoped you were going to say something more constructive and less tunnel-visioned. You just admitted you don't have a case on me, just some "remarks" here and there. That's not a case.

[Grimgroove]

pirate mollie's reply to Wisdom's ponderings:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTcu7MCtuTs

[Grimgroove]

@AP: You don't need a case for a scumread, true, but given your OBSESSION, you will need something convincing. You tried to get away with not explaining your scumread by calling me being scum fact. Angry Pidgeons may fly, but that shit won't!

[Grimgroove]

@AP: Majiffy? He's leaning town until further notice, but he remains one of the greater enigmas within this game. I don't think it will do much good to start treating him as a topic of conversation already. If he is scum, it will be way too early to catch him anyway. The challenge, and his to-the-point remarks all make him very townish in my eyes, but I know he's not the kind of guy who minds bussing his partners hard, leading to objectively sound posts regardless of his alignment.
I will have to rely on people who have more experience in playing with him to really establish some form of read on him. For now I trust pirate_mollie's instincts, whichever way they sway.

[Grimgroove]

Guys, if you're wondering about my experince with Mafia, you should just ask me! When have I ever denied you giving you the answers you seek?

Please, come sit around me and listen to my tale.

On a beautiful autumn day last year, some guy on a forum from my favorite football team started talking to people about this mafia game, where you have to find out each others roles by talking to each other over the internet. Even though it all sounded very bizarre, I decided to give it a try. It was a themes game involving the soccer players from several teams, and of course the players from my team were town. I was town as well. The moderator didn't really balance it out very well, because I was a Paranoid Gun Owner who only killed the scum targetting him. I did get a negative check when a cop would visit me, but I had built up enough towncred by then so I sailed to victory. After that, nobody was interested anymore, so I looked and found this website.

tl;dr: My offsite experience amounts to one game.

@Wisdom: Thank you. It was a good game. But let me ask you: did you read the scum-QT after the game was finished?

[Grimgroove]

Do you feel I operate similarly in this game as in Everbody's being Watched?

[Grimgroove]

We'll see, but somehow I think it's common for newbies to be townread as scum, and scumread as town. I'll give you my theory.

I think that in this game, I have made the mistake of writing down every single thing I think. I respond emotionally to people calling me stupid for it, because I genuinely believe in my ideas. In the beginning Amrun recognized this behavior (I think) when referring to me as a certainc ategory of newb. Somehow I was under the naive impression that if I would just write down my stream of thoughts honestly, it would flow naturally that everyone reads me as town. Result: I'm a scumread for many. Why? Inconsistencies. Because my thinking on certain people is not constant, my stream of thoughts can be used against me, making me look like some opportunistic votehopper.

In the other instance, I was scum, newbscum. I wanted to think everything through. What looks right? What argument looks like it makes sense? Am I sure they can't use this against me?
This approach was, while tiring, quite succesful. Why would I change this approach in this game, if it worked so nicely before? I wanted to present myself as a balanced person, looking at pro's and con's, making objective decisions. Look like! So I kept certain thoughts to myself.

Here I don't care about looking like that, I just write down everything I see, everything I wonder about. But I do care about reaching good conclusions.

[Grimgroove]

Yes, but knowing you, that won't last long

[Grimgroove]

Amrun is far more important, if only for my self-preservation.

If Amrun is still there the next daystage, I will challenge her myself.

Oh god this just gives me all sorts of chills. An Amrun scumflip does not conf-town you by any stretch of the imagination and Im not sure why you would think it does.

Maybe I don't think it does, and maybe I'm trying to implant this idea into your subconscious, rendering you powerless in the face of my evil manipulative skills!

HAHAHAHAHA.

no

It is so, because it is Obvious.

Hey Amrun, will you challenge me if you're still around for the next daystage?

Calling you out, yo!

Of course I will, and gladly. Idk why you act like I wouldn't. Ridic.

Also, you being a newb doesn't make you town, and it never will. You are recycling the argument I made against Majiffy early on, but without any of the context that made it make sense.

But what about procedure? What happened to "sticking to the plan"? Are you allowing chaos to reign these lands simply because I'm calling you out?

And yes, "your context" for pressure on me has already been taken care of. You seem to have missed that post.

I'm also a bit disappointed you're not lynched yet.

@AP: That "teenager"-post came just after me giggling about something ridiculously cliché and unfunny. Not game-related!

[Grimgroove]

ermmm. No.

@Amrun: Why did you exclude Elyse when speaking with me about who to lynch and who are we lynching and stuff. Feels like you taken her out of your mind of lynchpool completely until much later when you mention her.
Why is that?

Because I've had a townread on Elyse forever. She exists in the lynchpool because she does, but I've never once wanted to lynch her.

Not sure if overtly buddying to obfuscate your link with her, or just setting up Elyse.

Regardless, it's a very scummy stance.

Could you explain why Elyse is above all discussion in your eyes? I fail to see it.

Oh, and about the two scumteams, I misunderstood your question, sorry. I thought you were talking about two mafiateams working independently from eachother.

[Grimgroove]

I found it! Post 1543! Analysis "with more suspicion".

Sorry I imssed that, the shit case you had on me just under that had distracted me.

[Grimgroove]

No. You're acting like NS flipped town. He didn't.

If NS flips town then YOU are the fourth scum. You're acting like you know he'll flip town and are setting me up.

But these, here, are the kicker. I don't see a scumbuddy of NS saying this, knowing he would flip scum. Elyse is town.

This strongly reminds me of excrements produced by the adult male of the species Bos taurus.

[Grimgroove]

@Wisdom: you made a similar thought process.
Either of you should really explain to me why those two posts couldn't come from scum-Elyse. Post 1249 and the way it was prompted actually tells you she seemed to know Nobody Special was scum, despite him not having posted ANYTHING.
If anything, those two posts make Elyse scummier as opposed to townier.

[Grimgroove]

Because she questioned why I was so certain that he was flipping town. That would show a townie who doesn't know what NS is going to flip and finds me, who supported "NS is compromise, he's surely flipping town", suspicious.

Or scum who knew NS was not going to flip town. That's how I had read it at first.

[Grimgroove]

1249 merely shows she has not put much thought in the possibilty that NS is not scum, and just looks at the person who happens to be around and adds some half-baked reason to it.

Look at the last sentence here:

Yes. PoE is strong.

And if NS flips town then idk I'll have to reevaluate my reads.

She claims to have found the four-man scumteam by a mere PoE. Nobody Special is therefore a scumread of hers. Does this strike you as a striking argumentation for NS scum?

Yet, despite this, she did not even think of a situation where NS is not scum. She would have to re-evaluate her reads only after the flip. This betrays a particularly strong "NS = scum" mindset, a mindset which is not explained by NS' play at the time.

Fishy business.

[Grimgroove]

Ninja'd, isn't that how they call it?

[Grimgroove]

qwints is a possibility because his current vote on Amrun might be part of a ploy to distance themselves from eachother, with one of them saving themselves in the process.
Majiffy is a possibility because he told me once he busses his partners hard.
Angry Pidgeon is a possibility too, at first glance, haven't really looked at their interactions in depth yet though.

[Grimgroove]

Yeah, and Majiffy isn't actually a possibility. Even though he busses hard, I doubt Amrun would do to a scumbuddy what she did to Majiffy just after he challenged the Silver Snakes.

[Grimgroove]

No, because of the QT between him and Amrun. Doesn't seem like something you can fake. Should check in more detail again though.

The QT between Elyse and qwints I found less convincing somehow.

[Grimgroove]

That would mean however, that Amrun challenged Green, knowing that all three of the remaining scum would be in the lynchpool.

Hmm.

[Grimgroove]

enomis is here! enomis can do it!
Do it enomis! Hammer Amrun and set us free!

[Grimgroove]

1249 merely shows she has not put much thought in the possibilty that NS is not scum, and just looks at the person who happens to be around and adds some half-baked reason to it.

Look at the last sentence here:

Yes. PoE is strong.

And if NS flips town then idk I'll have to reevaluate my reads.

She claims to have found the four-man scumteam by a mere PoE. Nobody Special is therefore a scumread of hers. Does this strike you as a striking argumentation for NS scum?

Yet, despite this, she did not even think of a situation where NS is not scum. She would have to re-evaluate her reads only after the flip. This betrays a particularly strong "NS = scum" mindset, a mindset which is not explained by NS' play at the time.

Fishy business.

First of all, you can't criticize ANYONE'S view on NS.

Of course I can, barring any misreps I am perfectly capable of explaining my stance on NS. I did. Several times. You don't want me to do that again do you?

But I'll humor you anyway. My townreads are strong enough that I'm very confident the scumteam is NS/qwints/Grim/enomis. I'm not going to waste my time trying to find a townread scummy when my initial scumteam isn't even wrong yet.

Explain your townreads.
Apart from my name I can actually see where you're coming from. Hmm. Hmm? Hmm!

You're accusing me of not doing work I didn't need to do. How is that scummy at all?

Didn't I just explain how that is scummy?
Why yes, I believe I did.

Enomis' last post was terribly scummy, I agree. So terribly scummy it couldn't come from scum.

I can already sense the hairs standing up on the back of your neck (shame on you for having those) when seeing the above logic, but it is what it is.

If I would drop my tunnel on Amrun for a bit (maybe I should), I could see this:

Elyse - enomis - Angry Pïdgeon

?

Discuss.

UNVOTE:

[Grimgroove]

Nah.

VOTE: Amrun

[Grimgroove]

Grmbl.

Elyse is too confident in Amrun being town.
MAybe she's right.
If she is, she will use Amrun's flip against me.
The only reason why Elyse could be confident in Amrun town, is if Elyse is scum.
Becuase Amrun has given nobody any reason whatsoever to read her as town.
We should lynch Elyse first.
Elyse, is your V/LA a V or more of an LA?

Grmbl.

This game! THIS GAME! Blarghl.

VOTE: Elyse

[Grimgroove]

If I have to believe you lot, everyone is town but me.

Elyse giving so many townreads is indeed very townish. Scum wouldn't do that in a nightless.

VOTE: Amrun

Join me qwints!

[Grimgroove]

Did enomis say in the scum-QT he doesn't feel like playing anymore anyway?

[Grimgroove]

I need to take a break, my brain is overheating.

[Grimgroove]

UNVOTE:

Starting from Monday, I'm ISO'ing the lot of you. I feel that through my "taking the piss-play" (does not equal piss-play) recently, I seem to have lost touch with and the overview of this game.

I'll start with Amrun, maybe already tomorrow.

I still think Amrun is scum, through her own behavior. It's true it's difficult to link her to others, but fuck that.
I'm confident that through ISO'ing her the case will be made.

But I would prefer not to have her lynched because I get this say. It is unlikely, but possible I change my read on her, and I don't want to become the VI-lynch just because I didn't focus. People have been calling me obvscum, and the only reason why I let them get away with it is because I've been acting like an idiot at times.

See you after the weekend! Enjoy your tranquil Sunday.

[Grimgroove]

I wasn't, if scum wants to get mislynches, restricting yourself like Elyse is doing would work against her in the end. I don't see scum doing that.


But you're right about this:

VOTE: Amrun

This lynch needs to happen asap, it's driving me mad.

[Grimgroove]

I never said I'm too stupid. I said I haven't been very focused. The last couple of days felt like waiting for an Amrun lynched, and now I suddenly felt uncomfortable with my read on her, because it had been a while since I critically approached that read.
But these doubts are just because of all the time this takes to get her lynched. I think.
But never did I play the "I am stupid"-card. I said the opposite. I don't want people to use that card against me. Like Elyse just did.

[Grimgroove]

You have played the I'm too stupid card. Don't even try to make it seem like you didn't.

Are you going to put up?
Or are you going to shut up?

[Grimgroove]

We still have some mislynches left in case Amrun isn't trolling (which she probably isn't), NO NEED TO PANIC!

If Amrun is town, the only thing I have to offer you in return is my townread on Wisdom.
All the other stuff evaporates into thin air and shall have to be reassessed.

Refreshing.

[Grimgroove]

I'm thinking of challenging Green. With me, Elyse and qwints in the lynch-pool there's plenty of shifty characters to choose from.

Works?

Not going to challenge enomis at this stage, a 1 vs 1 right now would be ridiculous.

[Grimgroove]

How come you are not so keen on challenging anymore, Majiffy?

[Grimgroove]

So both of the oranges? Then why do you want them to be in the lynchpool?

[Grimgroove]

(what is GvO?)

[Grimgroove]

Angry Pidgeon seemed intent on challenging me, and given Orange does not contain any strong scumreads of mine on this given moment, I really want to challenge Green, before Orange challenges me.

Someone give me feedback on this, but very keen to do this because Orange vs Silver would be truly terrible.

[Grimgroove]

Red vs. Green would be my preference, moreso than Green vs. Orange.
I'm going to hold off my challenge, but strongly ask

@AP

: Don't challenge me!!

[Grimgroove]

AngryPidgeon, who would you challenge (hypothetically speaking) in the next round?

Depends on the flip, but you would be high on my radar regardless of any flip.

[Grimgroove]

Grim's waffling towards the end of yesterday was terribad.

How so?

[Grimgroove]

Yeah, fuck that.
Green isn't going to challenge Red, nor the other way around. They will have to take on blue at some point in the game I think.
I don't want Orange in the lynchpool right now.
I've got scumreads on both greens.
Plenty of people got scumread on me.


Ergo

Challenge Green Monkeys

VOTE: qwints

More tomorrow, bed now.
If you have any questions/remarks for me, now is the time to bundle them and throw them at me.

[Grimgroove]

I told you that whoever goes against the will of the town will get lynched this time. Die.

Now is not the time for boneheaded principles. They'll get you nowhere.

Remember when I convinced you to townread me? Same fucking principle. I see qwints using shitty arguments against me behind a safe screen of unlynchableness and I'm calling him out. His case against mine. Majiffy probably isn't town either, but there's no way I could take him on right now. In an already precarious position it would have been ludicrous to challenge an almost universal townread, but I do want to say this:

I have the feeling, more and more, I've been used both as lynchbait by some scum and buddybait by other scum. If I'm lynched now, I'll let you sort it out, but my impression: Majiffy has competely ignored me as possible scum lately, probably because he expected me to blindly read him as town, which I did for a long time. He realized I could pose no danger to him, so he decided to tolerate me a bit more.
I'm lynchbait to qwints over my supposed waffling. Fuck THAT. I was being transparent as shit (the transparent kind, when you had some exotic food). How can you even begin to think that was in any way strategic? That's bullshit, everyone should see that, yet very few do.

Town had no will. If you wanted me and enomis in the lynchpool, at least you got half of your bargain. Make the most of it. Give me what you got and better make it good.

Or just vote me out and explain yourself afterwards.

I admit the Amrun-flip has left me in a zone of complete and utter uncertainty. I have very little idea what's going on, but qwint's snipes were the drop. Too obvious for me to be missed, and I acted on it. Stupid? Maybe I'll think so tomorrow morning. I guess I'll read about it in my game reviews.

[Grimgroove]

Why were you lining up the amrun lynch on D2?

Amrun was an obvscum-read for me after she seemed to try to get towncred over something she never did. It felt like a complete scumslip to me and felt it was lynchworthy.
Nobody Special was a nullread, a complete shot in the dark. His inactivity killed him as far as I'm concerned, but when lynching an inactive I think it's fairly natural to alrzady look ahead towards more rewarding lynches for reasons that are more pinpointable.

[Grimgroove]

I've got scumreads on both greens.
Plenty of people got scumread on me

This also scares me though.

"Look guys I have absolutely no problem being lynched ....BECAUSE IM NOT SCUM"

Town SHOULD have an issue with being lynched. Gragh.

You think just because I put myself in the lynchpool I will have no problem with being lynched? I will have a huge fucking (for emphasis) problem with anyone who votes me, definitely those voting me for "gray" reasons. But I've been noticing these scumreads on me with very little factual background, and I want to put those people in the spotlight, especially qwints at this point, who tried to remain out of it by taking easy shots at the close to universal scumread that is Grimgroove.

Wisdom is calling for a policy lynch on me because I didn't do what town wanted. Really? With all this other stuff to get reads from, this is his line of thinking now? And NOBODY calls him out on it.

Qwints is trying to get people on my wagon, but his reasons for suspicion on me are artificial at best, gonig to go over his posts later today and show you how. He should definitely be the lynch today.

Elyse, well, given qwints is scum, Elyse possibly isn't, despite her scary clairvoyancy on both the Amrun and Nobody Special flips. I know she's going to vote me after having called me obvscum plenty of times, but there's other players in this game that will have a more objective view on things, I'm sure. Yes, I did want Amrun lynched, no, they were not for out-of-the-blue-reasons. BUT if there's any color-team with two scums in it, it's the green one. The QT they've shared is the most fakable, and both people are scummy in their own right.

I'm not going to pretend I had a plan with that challenge, it was more a spur of the moment and if I hadn't come online last night, I probably wouldn't have done it this morning, but let me ask you this: Is there anyone who seriously believes there's no scum in the lynchpool? If you don't: shut up about this not having been the right thing to do.

[Grimgroove]

I've got scumreads on both greens.

Elyse giving so many townreads is indeed very townish. Scum wouldn't do that in a nightless.

Grim called Elyse town after she gave reads, yet called her scum today again. What gives?

You called me town only yesterday and now you're voting me, what gives?

People can't change their mind, really? I thought it was a townish thing to do at the time, yes, but considering how she's not been a leading factor in any of the lynches so far, I don't consider it that telling anymore. Considering how town has managed to convince each other to lynch town already twice without her doing, Elyse-scum can just continue sailing on that wave and pick out the scummy ones among the failed scumhunters. It's so easy. You stand by the sideline, townread those who are wrongly suspected of being scum, and then scumread those reading others wrongly and appoint scummy reasons to their reads.

Read Elyse's posts. There's an all-knowing aura around her posts, she KNOWS how people will flip, you can sense it from everything she says. She's now trying to cash in on this "all)knowingness" in two ways: towncred + getting me lynched by calling me obvscum.

That ain't right I tell you. It ain't right and it ain't fair.

[Grimgroove]

Also the 'join me qwints' is not how you address someone you think is scum.

I know how lame this argument usually sounds, but the truth is that that was a reaction test. At the time I was seeing an Amrun-qwints scumteam as one of the possibilities, and wanted to see how he would respond to a direct question asking him to hammer Amrun.

The entire thing with Amrun blew up in my face, or at least it feels that way. But my town-intentions in the entire ordeal should be pretty obvious to anyone. I was convinced because of a perceived scumslip (I caught Amrun in a lie, for fucks sakes!) I write down my thoughts as soon as they present themselves. Yes, just ISO me, I know I told you not to do so before without context, but you all know the context by now. See how it's a free flow, not hindered by any preponderings of how certain things seem. Do I sound calculated to you? Or do you think Grimgroove-scum would just blurt out anything based on the hype of the day and think he could get away with that?

[Grimgroove]

Also the 'join me qwints' is not how you address someone you think is scum.

Moving to today's lynch, why the hell haven't you voted for Grim yet AP? You've had him on your scum team forever.

That's pretty funny. Can you guys see how this is funny?

[Grimgroove]

I've got scumreads on both greens.
Plenty of people got scumread on me

This also scares me though.

"Look guys I have absolutely no problem being lynched ....BECAUSE IM NOT SCUM"

Town SHOULD have an issue with being lynched. Gragh.

By the way, just by ways of showing very few are above inconsistencies:
You had a townread on Amrun the whole way through, and she has asked to be lynched repeatedly and showed disappointment over not having died sooner.

I'm NOT holding this against you though. I consider you town since that whole burst about your real-life actions coupled with thoughts on this game, and was pretty convinced by it. Your psots feel similar to mine in a way, not contentwise, but the way the naturally flow from your fingers without a lot of apparent preconsideration. I have the same feeling with Wisdom. And with pirate_mollie. I'm not talking about content here, there's been a lot of disagreement, but it's just a reassuring posting method to me because it shows a degree of lack of concern that scum can't fake during more than 80 pages.

Elyse, enomis, qwints, and ever since the first challenge Majiffy: they sound like the masters of calculus treating all of this like a simple 1+1=2, knowing all the x's and y's.

[Grimgroove]

I told you that whoever goes against the will of the town will get lynched this time. Die.

Wisdom is calling for a policy lynch on me because I didn't do what town wanted. Really? With all this other stuff to get reads from, this is his line of thinking now? And NOBODY calls him out on it.

The same goes for this btw
Wtf
I didn't vote you because you challenged.

lol

Oh well, then I guess it was a coincidence that your vote was a pedit right after I challenged. My mistake.

There's this signature I recently saw, under fferyllt's posts, and it reminded me of this situation. Go check it out.

But ok, what are your reasons to vote me?

[Grimgroove]

Wisdom is calling for a policy lynch on me because I didn't do what town wanted. Really? With all this other stuff to get reads from, this is his line of thinking now? And NOBODY calls him out on it.

The same goes for this btw
Wtf
I didn't vote you because you challenged.

Tell me how my original quote was wrong.

[Grimgroove]

Both Grim and enomis seem to want Elyse in the lynchpool, and they don't want to challenge each other. Possibly because they thought they'll have my support on an Elyse lynch.
I guess you guys might be right about them.
I don't oppose the 1v1.

Then you challenged, so I voted you.

Yes, "contrived". So everything you said after that about me having to die for going against the will of town should just be ignored? Not policy related at all?
You're voting me because "you guess" yet another hyopthesis could be correct, based on me not wanting to challenge enomis for reasons I already clarified: I don't want a 1vs1 right now. Despite a scumread on enomis, it's no use for me to go after him in a lynchpool with only ymself as the alternative. Some townies think this lynchpool would have a guaranteed scum flipping, but given that I know my alignement, I know they are wrong. Think about what you would do. You, as town, alone in a team, challening another person you think is scum. Would you do it? No. So neither should I.

About your "reason":

As you correctly said, I challenged green after this post. Would I still think I have your support on an Elyse lynch at that point? Hypothesis gone.

[Grimgroove]

Grim, you're not this stupid.
Your actions towards the end of yesterday don't make any sense. You had been pushing Amrun forever, there is no way you would ever suddenly unvote her. You go to push Elyse instead, then you (correctly) call her town for her posts and go back to voting Amrun. And today you call Elyse scum again, like nothing happened. No. This whole thing is weird as hell. The only non-weird part is that Elyse was indeed very townish in these posts. She's town. You aren't.

No, I'm not this stupid. Read my posts starting from 2136, and try to read more than just the sentences that have your name in it.

I unvoted her precisely because I started to suspect Elyse from doing what I think she's doing as explained in 2137, causing a momentary pause in my read on Amrun. But I got so far in with Amrun, I could never truly convince myself of her not being scum.

[Grimgroove]

It was what town wanted,

Not from my point of view.

[Grimgroove]

No, it was part of the reason sure. By challenging green, you avoided challenging enomis,

further

confirming that most likely both of you are scum. It was what town wanted, and you ignored it. And your "spur of the moment" excuses are bullshit. Majiffy maybe managed to get away with it, but you won't. You're not Majiffy. You use your brain before you act.

Further?
Could you point me to the earlier confirmations that me and enomis are scum together?

[Grimgroove]

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you? There's not a single argument inthere.

These are the posts of said people, both from the Green team, who are far from "town" in my eyes. And as far as you're concerned, you change your mind every 35 minutes about what you want, so excuse me for not factoring that in.

Lol Wisdom I actually hope you're scum because your play is horrible if you're town.

I gave my reasons for Amrun town and thought that consistently through the game. That's not white knighting.

I think Grim/enomis should face off. I hope people realize how retarded Wisdom is being and don't listen to him. Him thinking I'm scum with qwints is just

Grim's waffling towards the end of yesterday was terribad. As was enomis escaping by lurking and AP letting him. I think Grim should challenge enomis. I wouldn't mind putting AP in the lynch pool after that hammer.

@elyse: why not you challenge me or grim?
Nice idea?

Because you and Grim would guarantee a scum lynch.

I think it would be good if you re-read everything since Amrun's flip, you haven't been paying attention.

[Grimgroove]

[Grimgroove]

General impressions, not based on any ISO'ing but my current and, when relevant, past thoughts about them.
Quite surprising this hasn't been done before. Another sign that town, me included, has been playing like headless chickens so far. I'm done trying to make sense of which scumteams make sense and which do not, it's obvious scum as a team is way out of my league in this regard, it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to make sense out of any team without having second thoughts about it only seconds after. The same is true for quite a few individual reads I have, and the more I go into detail when reading people, the more I am confused. Well done to scum for that, truly and sincerely. I think I'm not the only one who is being put for a choice: start all over again and re-analyze everything (a hassle), stick to your current thoughts (possibly mistakingly) or micro-manage the discussions you can make sense of and try to do something from there. I think that, instead of replying to everything that moves, the last option will be my only possible way to somehow contribute to town winning this thing.

I want to start off with these general impressions, which are not a clean slate, but give order to my current and previous thoughts, and it might provide a way for you people to make sense of what I've been doing that you seem to find bizarre. Or maybe it doesn't. Sometimes I might drift off in stories related to the names that go beyond reads, you'll have to bear with me. I'm going to avoid looking for links between players at this stage, so don't be surprised if I end up with 4 or 5 scumreads who can't possibly be in a team together according to most. But close to nothing is impossible at this stage.

enomis

: I think he's scum. His posts seem calculated, with his latest townread on me as a prime example of that. It looks so mechanical. He hasn't really scumhunted at all, and his lack of voting is really a problem. The reason why he's the only one who fits in pretty much every scumteam is because he has never really engaged with anyone. He defends himself excellently, but scum can pull that off as well. He also claims to be at a loss, like myself and Wisdom evidently are, but somehow his exasperation about this does not look natural at all. I don't think he cares, because I don't think he truly is lost. He's over at Scum Island watching us drift away to the horizon.

Majiffy

: To be honest, I still haven't got more on him compared to sixty pages ago. He's forceful and thanks to this he seems genuine, "too bold to be scum" as you will. The main thing I dislike is how at first he read me as obvscum, something that suddenly/gradually/I don't know how or when or why changed into him staying off my back completely. I think he has sensed I'm at a complete loss, and may attempt to buddy me, knowing my presence is more of an asset to him than my getting lynched because I pose no danger to him, and definitely will not if my credibility is further compromised through mislynch after mislynch. His reads do coincide with mine in a lot of cases and I'm starting to wonder if he's stimulating my faulty reads in order to keep me off-track, or if he is genuinely on the same track as I am. No idea what to make of him.

pirate mollie

: Ever since our initial fallout I've had her as my top townread. Now it has faded, mainly because she doesn't seem very involved in the game anymore. While her reactions overflow with the "genuine"-factor, there is also an element of overdefensiveness in it that is rather a nullread than a townread. She might find it very hard to accept criticism as any alignment, and it is possible that even as scum she is genuinely offended by some arguments brought forward against her. I can't deny that I like the fact she reads me as town, that read seems genuine and not a buddy-effort. She doesn't seem the type for buddying, so in a way this townread is a big factor in me reading her as town as well. Don't think she's scum, but it would be great if she'd get more involved in the game, even if only to come to my aid.

Elyse

: This one is really difficult. Probably the most difficult of all of them. I can copy/paste what I said before about this all-knowngness she seems to portray. It just doesn't feel like she's scumhunting. It feels like she already knows how everyone is aligned, and uses this knowledge to her strategical advantage by townreading those in distress and scumreading those who are scumhunting but on the wrong track. Nobody Special was the ideal scum-sacrifice to this end, and Amrun, a close to universal scumread, the perfect buddy. But there is the chance Elyse is simply a far better townplayer than I am and just expects the same qualities from other town, resulting in a genuine scumread on me for failing to live up to these standards. I really don't know. No clue. But I'll lynch her over myself, obviously, so I won't have any qualms to vote her if a majority on qwints is out of the question.

qwints

: He's my strongest scumread of this current lynchpool. He doesn't really stand out in many ways, even though it's a bit better than Safety Dance. He always seems to go for the easy arguments that are right in front of everybody's noses, without really making the effort of delving too deep or thinking two or three steps ahead. While his arguments against me may seem "sensible" at first sight, they are nothing more but convenient. He's cashing in on doubts I was having near the end of Amrun, doubts that I fully explained and clarified. A lot of his reads revolve around enomis and how people interact with him. Yet enomis didn't flip, and the scumread he has on enomis is backed up by rather superficial argumentation. I wanted to give him slack for arriving in the game late at the start, but he's being lazy and I never truly got the impression he was scumhunting. He stays on the surface and does as much as he can to stay out of the spotlight.

Angry Pidgeon

: In general, I like him as town. His posting style is fluid and looks extremely genuine for the most part. My personal run-ins with him though do detract from that image somewhat. Initially in the game his focus on me seemed very uncalled for and looked like a scum-veteran trying to strongarm a less experienced townplayer into getting himself lynched. Sometimes he shows bouts of reluctance to get me lynched and tries to come off as the sensible guy who can be reasoned with, but as far as I as a topic is concerned, I don't really see that happening. His emotional defense at his moment of greatest distress was very convincing, but somebody (was it Venmar?) rightly said that he could have just spicened up some real-life events to get the desirable results of everyone townreading him after that. He could definitely be scum, but if he is, he's way out of my league.

Venmar

: I've had a grand total of zero direct interactions with him.

Zero

, or at least I can't recall any. I have rarely talked about him, he rarely talked about meµ. I've never asked him a question, he never asked me a question. I don't know if this is just the case for me, but trying to think about what I think about him made me realize how big of an enigma he is within this game. The only thing that he's currently being remembered for is his reaction test on Angry Pidgeon with the fake hammer. Re-reading that it wasn't his initial plan to do so, but just improvised a bit based on a question Amrun asked. If you read that again, it becomes less obvious he's scumhunting and more obvious he's just playing around a bit. I'm starting to think I may have given him too much credit for this maneuver, and given how it is basically the only memorable thing he's done in this game, I'd call this guy at least some form of a lurker. He has moved under the radar throughout most of the game. He could definitely be scum.

Wisdom

: Mr. Hyperactive. I'm getting strong townvibes from him, because I have the feeling we're both in the same situation: town lost at sea. Ironically, it's a sea that was in big part created by the two of us (top-posters) and in a way we have been drowning ourselves. He has brought forward a lot of idiotic arguments I think, but I can't manage to see the scum-motive behind them anymore. At some point I thought he was, but I don't think he could keep that up as scum. He changes his mind 48 times a day, which could be perceived as opportunistic scum, but I don't see it that way. He's actively looking up posts from the past, trying to make sense of what people have beens aying, finding contradictions, trying to find links between people. He still has the illusion he'll make sense of it one day, I doubt he will, but I wish him the best of luck in this endeavor. Don't lynch him. He rattles cages and at some point one of his theories could hit a scumnerve. He's my only clear townread. If he's scum he deserves an award if only for sheer efoort and succesfully making this thing into a ball of chaos and getting towncred for it simultaneously. But like I said, I don't think this is what happened and I can't help but see the town intentions of it all. More love for this guy!

Right now we're looking at a situation with 3 scum vs. 6 town. This gives us only

two more mislynches

! This makes me realize I have to really hang my head in shame for already issuing this challenge. It was a very stupid thing to do in case none of the greens are scum, and even if there is scum in green it was, in the end, guesswork based on impulses. It's a combination of lack of realization we don't have a lot of room for mistakes anymore and an uncalled for conviction that at least one of the greens and possible both of the greens are scum. I believe less and less in both of them being scum the more I think about it, making me fear I might have played perfectly into the cards of scum.

Given this situation I'd also look at people who are not angry with me at all over this challenge. But maybe I wasn't the only one who didn't yet realize the possible gravity of the situation.

My vote remains on qwints for reasons states above.

I would welcome any similar lists from other players as well as remarks on mine.

[Grimgroove]

Here's the main reason right now:

I'm at work posting from my phone but I'm fucking pissed off at AP.

The fact you had to bring your real life into this is fucking messed up. I found out my grandmother died last night. Did I mention that? No. Why? Because I'm not a whiny baby and I can play this game by setting aside my personal life.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Nobody Special

enomis and Safety are basically conf scum to me. NS/Grim doesn't make sense together but Im pretty sure one is scum.

Elyse swung the momentum from an AP lynch to the NS lynch. It doesn't make sense as bussing, especially because if she were scum she'd be clearing Grim by saying he couldn't be on a team with NS.

Yes, she sure cleared me there. Oh boy, am I glad to be one of her strongest townreads right now. The fact she cleared me there has in no way prevented her from calling me obvscum ever since, because this would be flying back into her face like a bomomerang, wouldn't it? Scum would never risk such a dubious move without the most severe scrutiny!

If course it makes sense as bussing. Do you see her providing any reasons for the vote, aside from a miraculously efficient PoE?

Calling this vote a momentum swing is overly generous. Calling her town for it even moreso.

That wagon is also where's Grim's scumminess is revealed because he tries so hard to stay off the lynch despite advocating for it early on. Read the iso and you'll see the distancing.

I've explained my stance on Nobody Special so many times I can't say anything to this apart from calling it a blatant misrep and refer to my post 1260. What about this explanation is so unacceptable to you that you choose to simply ignore it?

[Grimgroove]

By the way, in 1264 I clarify further questions by Elyse, and in post 1265 Elyse claims to get back to it later and explain herself. She never did, apart from simply ignoring all I had said and simply reverting to her initial point.

[Grimgroove]

First time she mentions it again is in 1987 where she gives an unfounded stab based on her old argument.

Bah.

[Grimgroove]

Not lynching Elyse though, while ISO'ing her in this process I stumbled upon 1993 again and I have to say, they don't make posts townier than that. I made a similar statement about that before, and reading it again now it's amazing how this post influences my read on her.
She's just town on the wrong track.

qwints is the scumbag in this pool.

[Grimgroove]

Won't be able to be online tomorrow most probably. Don't miss me too much

[Grimgroove]

So what you're saying is you can lynch whoever you want in the current lynchpool without feeling bad about it, just because you can come up with a reason for a lynch for every person in the pool. That's very helpful.

I'm evidently not buddying up to Elyse. As I've explained before in my reads-list, she is the most difficult for me to read. Maybe her 1993 isn't as townie as I thought it was and think it is, but I remember it feeling very towny on my first read, and on my most recent read it gave me the exact same feeling again.

1993 is the reason I prefer a lynch on qwints over a lynch on Elyse, simply put.

There is no sense in buddying up to Elyse in my case, I know it, and you know it just as well. Our antagonistic relations have reached an evolutionary stage that is quite irreversible, barring any eye-opening flips.

[Grimgroove]

There is no sense in buddying up to Elyse in my case, I know it, and you know it just as well.

This really does not feel town at all.

Yes there is plenty of motivation for you to butter up Elyse (unless you are scum together in which case )

She will be voting either you or Qwints.

And she flipped her read on me despite tunneling me early on that Day I was lynchable. Its not like anybody in particular is immune to manipulation which is what you imply afterwards, lol.

Town buddy too but are way less likely to beat around the bush about it.

Yes, that's how you interpret every single one of my posts.
You call it buddying, I deny it, you say I'm lying and beating around the bush. You turn something that you admit to being an interpretation in the beginning of your post into fact by the end of it. Well done.

I am not buddying Elyse, I am giving my views on Elyse. They are not "designed" in order for her to like them, and in turn like me again. Wile I don't have a clear read on her, my read on her is clear for everyone. Null leaning town but still heavily wary.

But you seem so full of goodwill, don't you? It all seems so sensible, as if you're trying to understand me.
My lack of taking on Majiffy, my buddying with Elyse, my late and temprorary doubts on Amrun's flip, you make it look like it hurts you so much to scumread me over these things, yet whenever an opportunity presents itself to paint something I did as scummy, you'll pounce on the it.

Majiffy/Angry Pidgeon in a team?
qwints or Enomis third guy?
Hopefully qwints.

[Grimgroove]

Why the hell would I buddy someone by calling her probtown who is:

1. in the same lynchpool as me.
2. called me obvscum.

As far as buddying goes, there's plenty of more people I could have tried that on in this game (you could call my reads on pirate_mollie or Wisdom buddying for instance), why the hell would I try to do the most desperate thing?

Your argument does not make sense. You really should know better Angry Pidgeon.

[Grimgroove]

Because at this point I'm convinced Grim is retarded. He still could be scum but a lot of the reasons I'm scumreading him are his terrible switches on people which could be just because he's easily swayed by anyone and can't think for himself.

REPORTED!
You shall be banned from this website.


No :p, but seriously, I disagree, especially the last sentence. While the first is open for debate, that "not thinking for myself"-part is bullshit. If I have any problem, it's that I do too much thinking for myself. Not because I'm doing too little of it and am simply sheeping anyone who passes by.

Which terrible switches have I made that were the result of other people's opinions? Don't you dare bring NS up again, because I'll FREAK OUT! Seriously. Don't bring up NS again in this regard.

[Grimgroove]

Not feeling qwints scum at all this game.

Does that mean you've played with qwints before?
Why do you think he's town?

Oh yeah, i've played with qwints a number of times. I don't feel like this is his scummeta.

Sounds like a very lame way to call someone town without having to explain yourself.

Could you be a bit more specific as to what the differences are?
Seeing how meta seems important to you and you've been on this website a while, any other conclusions on other players based on meta?

qwints, can you yourself confirm your scum-meta is notably different from your town-meta or were you not planning on questioning that particular townread on you?

[Grimgroove]

^ good post, aside from this bit:

I strongly doubt Grim is scum with you considering hes buddying up to you which would be a pretty bold scum/scum play and not something I'd expect from a newer player in general.

Even if the premise of me buddying to Elyse had been true, the above would still be complete and utter nonsense.

[Grimgroove]

I'd prefer enomis-Majiffy tomorrow.

Agreed.
Hopefully also because qwints will have been lynched by then.

[Grimgroove]

Majiffy, what are your thoughts on qwints?

[Grimgroove]

Yeah, Elyse is town.

[Grimgroove]

3. There's at least one scum one the Elyse wagon.

The same goes for the wagon on me.

[Grimgroove]

Grim, what was your read on Elyse when you challenged?

Scum.
But now I kind of changed my mind about that.

Why did you ask me this question?

[Grimgroove]

Grim is town.

Grim is town.

You do this a bit too often to my liking. Are you trying to make people link me to you?

[Grimgroove]

Majiff's making more sense than wisdom right now, but I keep going back to the voting patterns. Elyse would have to be scum doing whatever she could to appear townie no matter how inconvenient that was for scum - including being a big part of the NS lynch and fighting the Amrun lynch for a wagon on a target I still think is scum - enomis. I just don't buy that from scum, especially in a nightless where all we need to do is have scum+1 obv-townies alive to win.

That's the problem. There are no obv-townies in this game.
Is there anyone we all agree on that is most definitely town?

I don't find Majiffy's case on elyse very convincing. He makes it out to be more than it actually is.

[Grimgroove]

A day of silence. So this is what happens when Wisdom goes on V/LA
Kidding aside though, I have the impression this game is stuck.
Could the people not currently on the qwints wagon provide reasons for not being there? (as specific as possible)

[Grimgroove]

Both enomis and pirate_mollie are up for a prod I reckon.

The game has severely slowed down. Majiffy trying to get something going despite this, screams Majiffy being town to me.

[Grimgroove]

Majiffy, both grim and I don't like the case on Elyse. Doesn't that suggest you should reevaluate?

You are basically saying the both of us are not of the same alignment and using our converging views on a certain matter as an argument that these views must be valuable, given our different alignment.
In order to use this as a factual argument in the way you just did, you truly have to take it for granted we are not from the same alignment. This is more than you simply suspecting me of being scum. This is you KNOWING I don't belong to your alignment. The only way you'd know we're not of the same alignment is when you're scum.

[Grimgroove]

Why else would he think us having the same view on something actually means something?

[Grimgroove]

The way he phrased it makes it very clear that the combination of him AND me is somehow particular.

[Grimgroove]

Because I think 1) Elyse is most likely town; 2) grim is most likely scum; and 3) I can persuade town to lynch grimm correctly, I'm willing to risk my mislynch.

Just replace the word Grim with the word qwints, and this actually perfectly describes my position.

[Grimgroove]

Only, I haven't really seen you try to persuade town that I'm scum. So point 3 doesn't really hold for you.

[Grimgroove]

So yeah my probable scumteams are:

enomis/Grim/Qwints
enomis/Majiffy/Qwints
enomis/Majiffy/Mollie
enomis/Majiffy/Grim

In order of most to least likely

Don't you think that if me and qwints were in the same scumteam, at least one of us would have hammered you? Your most likely scumteam doesn't make much sense. Any sense actually, if you put it together with your individual reads. You have me down as null, yet I'm still in your most probably scumteam.

Why is enomis/Mollie/qwints not one of the possibilities to you?

[Grimgroove]

Still, got a diff lynch pool... only person I think is scum in this lynch pool now is Grimm.... sooo.....yeah...

Vote: Grimmy

Is this PoE wthin your current choice range, or do you actually think I'm scum? You sound a bit wiffly-woffly concerning this, especially as I don't recall you giving any earlier indication of thinking I'm scum (+reasons).

[Grimgroove]

everyone give a list of 3 players you would be okay to lynch.

"okay to lynch" is too vague in order to be able to restrict myself to only three people.

I'll just give my order of preference in who to lynch and it's only the bottom two that I don't ever see myself voting for right now:

qwints
enomis
Majiffy
Elyse
pirate mollie
Angry Pidgeon
Venmar
Wisdom
Grimgroove

[Grimgroove]

PoE is POO!

[Grimgroove]

[Grimgroove]

Qwints: How likely do you think Grim is to flip scum?

I think it's really likely at this point. I'd be surprised if he didn't.

I'll have to get back on all the other stuff later, but this ^^ must have pinged someone else's radar as well, right?
If I'm the lynch today green simply has to be in the lynchpool again tomorrow, facing off against either blue or red.

More tomorrow. Must sleep now.

[Grimgroove]

@AP
I don't see how Grim/Qwints not hammering me makes them not scum. (with me town) There are many reasons why they wouldn't hammer me. Fear, drastic switch on reads, loss of towncred, my townflip makes them look scummy, etc.

Towncred? What towncred do I have?
Drastic switches of reads: it's not as if I had none of those yet in this game.
Your flip wouldn't make a difference when it comes to how people percieve me.
And fear?
I HAVE NO FEAR!













Seriously, no fear here.

[Grimgroove]

Mollie, you forgot about Enomis in your post. Which isn't terribly surprising since hes scum and lurking.

I really don't see anyone other than Enomis getting lynched tomorrow and I don't particularly give a shit who challenges him.

He's not lurking. He flaked. Which is even worse because it's not alignment indicative, which gives us nothing.

I'm not perfectly comfortable with how easily consensus is being reached about enomis = scum I have to admit. It seems to me as if his recent absense has been the moment some have been looking for to call him scum, completely unchallenged. Somehow this entire thread has a wind whiffing through it, telling us "enomis is scum", but should we trust the wind?

I don't know. But I definitely do care who challenges him.

[Grimgroove]

I told you before, I'm done with compiling scumteams.
But I see more people than just enomis being scummy, so it is possible that they are part of a scumteam where he is not part of.
By now I think pretty much every combination of three people has been mentioned as a possibility in this topic. Quite impressive. We're turning into a human Monte Carlo simulation.

Who do I want to challenge him?
Blue would be nice, but in case I'm the one being lynched, I think Green should go in the lynchpool again.

[Grimgroove]

And I have not forgotten how he forgot his scumread on Grimgroove to vote Coug on D1, something that all of you have completely forgotten and ignore.

Oh shit that totally slipped my mind.

Could you clarify how this information is in any way consequential?

[Grimgroove]

Elyse is too confident in Amrun being town.
MAybe she's right.

Side note: totally forgot about this. Grim sees Elyse as WKing Amrun but then drops Elyse suspicions for Qwints when suddenly its one of those 2 Vs him and Amrun isn't allowed?

What? Repeat please in clearer phrasing?

And actually vote parks Amrun with a little theatrics despite being paranoid about that.

You seriously see that as theatrics? Between Elyse-Grim both scum? You're confbiassing now.

I wouldn't be so sure this was from cum

We all come from cum.

if he hadn't just dropped his Elyse herpaderp IN LIGHT OF HIS PREDICTION BEING CORRECT to tunnel on qwints with his former? scumread.

What? Repeat please in clearer phrasing?

I don't understaznd what you are all seeing. My read on Elyse is perfectly clear, in that it is unclear, and has been explained before:

Elyse: This one is really difficult. Probably the most difficult of all of them. I can copy/paste what I said before about this all-knowngness she seems to portray. It just doesn't feel like she's scumhunting. It feels like she already knows how everyone is aligned, and uses this knowledge to her strategical advantage by townreading those in distress and scumreading those who are scumhunting but on the wrong track. Nobody Special was the ideal scum-sacrifice to this end, and Amrun, a close to universal scumread, the perfect buddy. But there is the chance Elyse is simply a far better townplayer than I am and just expects the same qualities from other town, resulting in a genuine scumread on me for failing to live up to these standards. I really don't know. No clue. But I'll lynch her over myself, obviously, so I won't have any qualms to vote her if a majority on qwints is out of the question.

^^ Is this so unsensible?
My only disagreement with Angry Pidgeon is that I'm not so eager to exclude the possibility that Elyse is better at reading people than I am, both in the Amrun and Nobody Special-cases. But I agree that especially in the case of Nobody Special, I found the accuracy of her predction worrying in a way, as I also have pointed out earlier.

But all this time we waste on talking about Elyse, is time not used for talking about qwints, in the shadows for eternity. I'll remind you of my read on him, which has not changed at all either:

qwints: He's my strongest scumread of this current lynchpool. He doesn't really stand out in many ways, even though it's a bit better than Safety Dance. He always seems to go for the easy arguments that are right in front of everybody's noses, without really making the effort of delving too deep or thinking two or three steps ahead. While his arguments against me may seem "sensible" at first sight, they are nothing more but convenient. He's cashing in on doubts I was having near the end of Amrun, doubts that I fully explained and clarified. A lot of his reads revolve around enomis and how people interact with him. Yet enomis didn't flip, and the scumread he has on enomis is backed up by rather superficial argumentation. I wanted to give him slack for arriving in the game late at the start, but he's being lazy and I never truly got the impression he was scumhunting. He stays on the surface and does as much as he can to stay out of the spotlight.

[Grimgroove]

Kidding aside though, I have the impression this game is stuck.
Could the people not currently on the qwints wagon provide reasons for not being there? (as specific as possible)

Qwints feels townish to me. And I strongly doubt he butts heads with me when hes up for lynch as scum and I'm entertaining voting his wagon.

His bit about having notes feels really genuine in hindsight since hes basically auditing himself in the thread and unashamed about any possible inconsistencies spilling his notes could cause down the line if he were scum.
Also, qwints feels different than he did in GoW mafia (I think I may have said that before).

Those are very poor reasons for a townread.
He never referred to his notes again, by the way.
I don't see why scum couldn't be taking notes by the by. And the idea that scum wouldn't butt heads with you is ludicrous in itself, especially in a nightless where scum is pretty much forced to butthead with towjn. They need to get us lynched, remember?
Meh @ meta. I asked qwints straight up if he agreed with his meta being different, and he tactfully ignored it. Which was the worst thing he could have done in my book.

The game has severely slowed down. Majiffy trying to get something going despite this, screams Majiffy being town to me.

This is a really shallow reason to townread someone... 'Screams' town? So anyone posting quote strips screams town to you or is there actually something he was doing that looks town?

Oh hi kettle!
Maybe I'm too generous when saying "screams" rtown, I'll give you that, but this game has gone stale in many ways, and I consider Majiffy's efforts to get Elyse lynched townish.
To put it in your words: his scumhunting "feels genuine".
Is that better?

You are basically saying the both of us are not of the same alignment and using our converging views on a certain matter as an argument that these views must be valuable, given our different alignment.
In order to use this as a factual argument in the way you just did, you truly have to take it for granted we are not from the same alignment. This is more than you simply suspecting me of being scum. This is you KNOWING I don't belong to your alignment. The only way you'd know we're not of the same alignment is when you're scum.

This is some shit. He never said that you being opposite/same alignments matters as all. I'll admit its a little odd that hes voting you and using your read on Elyse to encourage Majiffy to vote you, but thats more likely dumb than scum

This feels like a chainsaw. Qwints had already explained himself appropriately in this regard, your explanation offers no addirtional value, apart from the effort of trying to make me look bad.
I know he never said it literally, but it's how I saw it at the time.

We both had the opportunity to hammer.

This actually makes a ton of sense from a Qwints perspective and I tend to agree. Scum would have way more motivation to hammer town when they can potentially get off w/o being in the lynch pool after doing it.

@Qwints: Ok, so if Elyse is town and Grim is scum why did Grim not hammer? You monologued a bit about why _you_ didn't and of course it involves you being town.

After Elyse's unsatisfactory answer to this and qwints' already trying to use this to get towncred, here's my take on the situation:
My main beef with qwints' argument is that he claims to be confident in being able to convince other that I'm scum. Yet I have seen him do very little effort to do so. Not a single mention of his notes with regards to me for instance (hah).
I think he's doing this to build up towncred + possibly buddy up to Elyse along the way. Elyse's mislynch would make him look worse than my mislynch if he's on the wagon. At least he thinks so.
In my case a switch to Elyse would look far less scummy. I have repeatedly stated I have no idea when it comes to her. Sounds opportunistic? Maybe, I'll leave that up to you, but I didn't hammer.

[Grimgroove]

Qwints: How likely do you think Grim is to flip scum?

I think it's really likely at this point. I'd be surprised if he didn't.

@Qwints: Ok, so if Elyse is town and Grim is scum why did Grim not hammer? You monologued a bit about why _you_ didn't and of course it involves you being town.

Remember that grim wasn't vigorously opposing a hammer, but taking a wishy-washy stance against Elyse as scum. My guess is he thought he could scare me into hammering out of self-preservation. It's also worth pointing out that the pressure was on Elyse and me, not him, while he had the opportunity to hammer.

These are his posts on elyse while the voting is qwints and wisdom on grim, grim on qwints and majiffy on elyse.

Read Elyse's posts. There's an all-knowing aura around her posts, she KNOWS how people will flip, you can sense it from everything she says. She's now trying to cash in on this "all)knowingness" in two ways: towncred + getting me lynched by calling me obvscum.

Elyse: This one is really difficult. Probably the most difficult of all of them. I can copy/paste what I said before about this all-knowngness she seems to portray. It just doesn't feel like she's scumhunting. It feels like she already knows how everyone is aligned, and uses this knowledge to her strategical advantage by townreading those in distress and scumreading those who are scumhunting but on the wrong track. Nobody Special was the ideal scum-sacrifice to this end, and Amrun, a close to universal scumread, the perfect buddy. But there is the chance Elyse is simply a far better townplayer than I am and just expects the same qualities from other town, resulting in a genuine scumread on me for failing to live up to these standards. I really don't know. No clue. But I'll lynch her over myself, obviously, so I won't have any qualms to vote her if a majority on qwints is out of the question.

Then, after Wisdom switches from voting grim to me in 2173 (not counting the early switch he immediately retracted), Elyse becomes a town read:

Not lynching Elyse though, while ISO'ing her in this process I stumbled upon 1993 again and I have to say, they don't make posts townier than that. I made a similar statement about that before, and reading it again now it's amazing how this post influences my read on her.
She's just town on the wrong track.

A switch that doesn't stop him giving other reasons for Elyse to be scum as the Elyse wagon forms.

So grim would have been happy with an Elyse lynch since he could get his town cred from an Elyse flip while staying alive. He wouldn't that towncred by hammering her, and since I had more pressure than he did, he was probably hoping I would hammer someone he knew was a townie, which he could use to line up my mislynch next.

Damn, had missed that post.
That was actually quite an impressive hypothesis, hard to spot the mistakes. But they're there And I found them
But your entire case revolved around my read on Elyse changing as soon as I see Wisdom votes you. This is wrong. Post 1993 had screamed town to me way earlier than that.

Two quotes I want to pick out specifically from this post:

My guess is he thought he could scare me into hammering out of self-preservation. It's also worth pointing out that the pressure was on Elyse and me, not him, while he had the opportunity to hammer.

This argument betrays your scummy mindset. This isn't about how I think about you, this is about how you think about yourself.
Only scum would be hammering a townread of them out of self-preservation. The fact you, as town, are not thinking of this in these terms, confirms my scumread on you.
Your hypothesis doesn't make any sense: I, as scum, would know you're town, and would know you would not be hammering out of self-preservation. It's only if I think you're scum I would hold you capable of doing that. And I could only think you're scum if either I'm in your scumteam or if I'm town.

Linking my stance on Elyse to the pressure that is on me was very clever, but without real basis.

[Grimgroove]

I forgot the second quote:

Qwints: How likely do you think Grim is to flip scum?

I think it's really likely at this point. I'd be surprised if he didn't.

As I already said, I find this statement incredibly irksome. I realize that from your PoV this seems sensible, but from mine it screams (:mrgreen:) scum to me. Especially the "at this pint" part. It somehow implies there has been a boatload of extra arguments against me compared to a certain moment earlier in time, but there hasn't.
And the second sentence skillfully combines an portrayal of someone who's convinced about my scumflip but simultaneuosly covering himself already. Such skillfull formulations make me think they are too intricate to have come naturally to him.

[Grimgroove]

Any developments in the green qt?

[Grimgroove]

Given that I'mh ere by myself, I'll give you the developments of the Silver-QT. As StrangerCoug's request ended up not being an AtE in the end, I did as he asked and posted some of my thoughts.
Maybe he asked me to do this for a reason. In a way I think I can use this to my advantage into convincing you that I'm town, because in the QT I've posted my internal thinking processes that didn't really have a place here in their entirety, but show my genuine struggle.
You could of course think I'm trolling the already dead StrangerCoug, but that's basically the same as saying you think I'm an asshole.

There's a total of 27 posts in my QT right now, post 18 is the first one after StrangerCoug's flip.

18: telling SC I'll continue posting as he asked, that I feel stupid after his lynch, that I still think Wisdom is scum. I say that if Wisdom turns out not be scum, I'll sheep my way through the rest of the game. I was obviously quite convinced Wisdom was scum at the time.
19: some self-pity tantrum about me having joined this kind of game too early in my mafiascum-processs, where I'm feel like I'm being manipulated left an right and how I'm unable to get any clear reads, as opposed to other players who seemingly have less problems with it (I guess I was referring to Majiffy specifcally at the time, but no names were added). I say I'm basing my reads on how people read me and itneract with me, and decide this will be the best way to go. Hence my scumread on Wisdom. Then I proceed to say I'll probably sheep my strognest townread, being pirate_mollie at that time.
20: Statement about me thinking Wisdom, Angry Pidgeon, Amrun and Elyse are my scumreads.
21: An apparent "aha-erlebnis" must have occurred in the topic,b ecause here I say that Wisdom is town after all.
22: Here I change my mind again on Wisdom, questioning my own arguments for thinking he's town (don't remember what these arguments were, should compare the times), and complaining about the fact I can't produce any strong argument. I start a thinking trajectory based on a fear that it's the lurkers who are scum (notably Safety Dance and Nobody Special) and call them pre-emptively lame for trying to win the game in this way in case they are. Some more self-pity about having to have been the one to be mislynched considering my poor town-play, and some criticism on townplay in general because of nitpicking and an atmosphere in the topic that doesn't seem to hint at an eventual town-win.
23: Excitement over thinking I found Amrun's scumslip, and calling Wisdom probably scum in the process, though I'm not as convinced about him. Contrasting with 22, here I have a strong sense of self-belief in having caught Amrun, and imagine myself getting credit for lynching scum in the future, making up for my poor performance earlier.
24: My self-belief has faded, and I am beginning to think Amrun could be town after all. I say that if she isn't scum, I won't know how to move forward in this game anymore. I express fear of being lynched over an Amrun townflip. I state Wisdom as my townread, and express frustration that this is the only information I got after 80 pages.
25: Scumread on Majiffy, but reluctance to call him out because I think it will just end up in me being lynched because I'd be challenging a close to universal townread. Saying Majiffy-enomis in a team is certainly possible.
26: I see Majiffy - qwints - Angry Pidgeon in a team here.
27: I confirm what I said in 26, three days later.

There you have it.

[Grimgroove]

That was a terrible summary of things. Terrible.

[Grimgroove]

I don't stop scumreading enomis, but I stop to think whether this enomis-consensus isn't reached a bit too easily. He hasn't been here for more than 6 days, so instead of him having made himself more suspicious, it is obvious that we've all been convincing each other that he's scum, by merely repeating that he is. This is potentially dangerous because potentially steered by the real scum.
He's not in the lynchpool anyway, so it's quite surprising there is so much talk about someone who's 1. not here, 2. not in the current lynchpool.
Something feels off.

[Grimgroove]

Spare me your unconstructive criticism, by the time you make up your mind about anything, this game is over.

[Grimgroove]

And this proves my point:

If Orange challenge you against the town's will, we'll just lynch whoever does it.

I want red vs green or orange vs green.

You wanted green in the lynchpool more than any other team before I challenged.
Now you suddenly say this lynchpool is crap.

[Grimgroove]

You're basically judging my move to challenge Green based on information we got only more than a week later.
When there would have been Green vs Orange like you suggested, you'd probably be equally gutted over the lynchpool considering you suddenly have townreads on Orange as well.

Besides, I thought you scumread qwints? So how is this lynchpool shit? You get to lynch scum.

[Grimgroove]

Once your main scumreads are in the lynchpool I wouldn't put it past you to start second-guessing about them as well. All I'm saying is you shouldn't give me shit over choosing this lynchpool as long as you're not able to make up your mind yourself. That is all.

[Grimgroove]

Challenge-situations produce information. Eternal second-guessing doesn't.

[Grimgroove]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Grim

fuck that I'm going with enomis/Majiffy/Grim

READ EVERYTHING BEFORE VOTING ME!!!!!

Jesus...

Qwints just rehashed an ancient case that I've debunked 500 times already.

Read 2381 in particular. I can't imagine anyone thinking I made that kind of stuff up.

[Grimgroove]

:-s

[Grimgroove]

Yeh I'm sick of your "debunking". You're quite obviously prefectly capable of doing it, so it does not mean much for me anymore.

This is truly retarded. Seriously. I get that you're getting tired of the game or something,b ut that's no excuse to get obvtown lynched. Read 2381.

And qwints is scum, for event rying to bring that up again. I have explained my stance on Nobody Special thousands of times, yet he simply ignored it, goes back in time, and gives it scrutiny by simply hypothesizing over scenarios.

FUCK YOU FOR VOTING ME WISDOM.
Seriously.

[Grimgroove]

Some quick responses to grim's walling
1) The notes were a one time thing taken during my re-read. I definitely overstated the extent of my notes in my first reference, which I made clear in response to Wisdom's probing on the subject. I have not been taking notes since that initial re-read.
2) Self-meta is always bullshit. The games I've played are on my wiki, and I've played with several of the people in here before. I'll be glad to point out games that fit a certain criteria if anyone wants to look, but I don't see a point in my describing my own play.
3) Elyse and I's QT has been quiet. Since elyse's description, elyse commented that she thought amrun was town and grim was scum and that enomis was the best lynch from that lynchpool. I've said that AP's hammer seemed scummy and asked her what she thought of enomis's sudden activity before the challenge today. She re-affirmed her scum-read of enomis and has complained about how the game is going.

Meanwhile, let me restate the main reason I think grim is scum right now (which, despite the fact that grim replied to it, hasn't gotten enough scrutiny)

Grim was voting NS. He repeatedly said that NS was a good vote. But he got off the wagon as soon as it picked up steam, and then got back on once it appeared inevitable. Look at these posts, four hours apart:

I believe sticking with NS for now is better.

Do you think AP made up his RL story?

You sound frustrated you're being bereft of an almost certain mislynch because of reasons you don't like.

But just because you don't like the reasons, doesn't mean they're not valid.

And they are. Not only Majiffy's logic convinced me (I was thinknig along the same lines anyway when it comes to that), but also A's description of what was going on sounds too genuine to be fake. There's no way you can't see that.

I'm going to move my vote back on to you, because of this obvious disappointment you're enduring. If you're town, you should be happy there were arguments brought forward that make AP very very town.

VOTE: Wisdom

He then unvotes Wisdom in 1146, and says that we need more from NS, BUT DOESN'T REVOTE NS. Why? BECAUSE THERE'S NOW A CHANCE NS MIGHT ACTUALLY BE THE LYNCH. Even though, his original reasoning for voting NS was to get more from NS. See 886 and 895.

He only goes back to voting NS to place the L-1 vote with his tough sounding post that lined up the Amrun mislynch:

Fine, I'll take you AtE.
I obviously did not read your game again, I might as well start reading the Bible, but pff, I thought about it.
I'd feel bad about letting you slide once again in case you do end up being scum, but I'd feel worse if you're actual town having put a lot of effort in this game and letting Nobody Special being lurksack lazy scum with 11 posts live on. Somehow doesn't seem fair.
So yeah, congrats, your AtE worked.
But I still think your play vis-à-vis Amrun has been very dubious. I hope you agree she is the next one to lynch and won't be throwing around any wild scenraios again just to make her seem town somehow. She is obvscum.

VOTE: Nobody Special

This is

L-1

.

I do think last words from Nobody Special are in order.

What's different now that makes him vote (read: bus) NS? There are no other viable options, with only one (1) vote anywhere else.

And can't anyone see how "scripted" this is?
Some quick responses? Seriously? He didn't even look at my walls. He just had another "case" ready for when the heat was getting back on. Does the above look like a quick response to you?

Gah.
Lynch qwints.
!!!

[Grimgroove]

It is like many other reads of mine, they fluctuate. It's not as if I had a constant townread on you within this topic either.
The QT also sometimes holds thoughts I haven't necessarily pursued here, because it wasn't the right time or because I couldn't put the arguments in words.

[Grimgroove]

I don't particularly like your QT post. Reads very self-conscious, as if you had planned on eventually posting it to try to look town.

I can't believe this.

Yeah, just lynch me then. If after that post I'm not obvtown, I don't know what will make me. Didn't think anyone would put it in thier mind I would actually make up such a thing. Fuck. All of you.

[Grimgroove]

Yeh I'm sick of your "debunking". You're quite obviously prefectly capable of doing it, so it does not mean much for me anymore.

This is truly retarded. Seriously. I get that you're getting tired of the game or something,b ut that's no excuse to get obvtown lynched. Read 2381.

And qwints is scum, for event rying to bring that up again. I have explained my stance on Nobody Special thousands of times, yet he simply ignored it, goes back in time, and gives it scrutiny by simply hypothesizing over scenarios.

FUCK YOU FOR VOTING ME WISDOM.
Seriously.

This post is really scummy.

First, since when are you obvtown? This whole game you've (admittedly) waffled around reads, been completely wrong, made mistakes, and said you would sheep people. How is that obvtown?

Second, how is qwints scummy for bringing up a reason for you as scum? He is actively trying to lynch you today and stated that multiple times.

Grim and Qwints are both in two of my suspected scumteams so I am good with lynching Grim.

I guess I would prefer a qwints lynch, but not by much, and there doesn't seem to be enough support for one.

Wow.

[Grimgroove]

2381 is all I can say really. If you truly hold me capable to invent such a thing, then yes, you should lynch me. I will consider it an overestimation of my abilities and thus a compliment.
Elyse's switch in her last post is scummy and opportunistic as hell. Combine that with qwints presenting an old case as one of his own in a supposedly "quick" reaction, and you know you have to CHALLENGE GREEN after I flip. At least one of them is scum.
Wisdom's switch is due to lack of involvement (LA) and an obvious disenchantment with this game. His 2399 depresses me.
I was expecting more from Venmar.
Majiffy is angry I'm scumreading him again.

Meh.
I thought despite my poor reads I could do town a favor by at least preventing my own mislynch by obvtowning (something nobody has done), if I can't even do that I think you should just get this over with and get me out of this game.
And no, this is not an AtE. If anything should convince you, it's 2381. If it doesn't, you vote me and I can only hope you'll have to answer for it later.

[Grimgroove]

I don't particularly like your QT post. Reads very self-conscious, as if you had planned on eventually posting it to try to look town.

I can't believe this.

Yeah, just lynch me then. If after that post I'm not obvtown, I don't know what will make me. Didn't think anyone would put it in thier mind I would actually make up such a thing. Fuck. All of you.

umad?

usoundmad.

iammadbutillgetoverit.

[Grimgroove]

Yeh I'm sick of your "debunking". You're quite obviously prefectly capable of doing it, so it does not mean much for me anymore.

This is truly retarded. Seriously. I get that you're getting tired of the game or something,b ut that's no excuse to get obvtown lynched. Read 2381.

And qwints is scum, for event rying to bring that up again. I have explained my stance on Nobody Special thousands of times, yet he simply ignored it, goes back in time, and gives it scrutiny by simply hypothesizing over scenarios.

FUCK YOU FOR VOTING ME WISDOM.
Seriously.

This post is really scummy.

This might as well be an introduction to your own post.

First, since when are you obvtown? This whole game you've (admittedly) waffled around reads, been completely wrong, made mistakes, and said you would sheep people. How is that obvtown?

I thought, obviously incorrectly, I'd be obvtown after post 2381 (I think I'll be dreaming of this number). It just seemed like a sudden unexpected present from StrangerCoug from the grave. He asked me to post my thoughts in the QT, and I did at his service, partially for feeling bad for my part in his lynch. I post my thoughts like he wanted me to, and only now realize I can use this to my advatage: what is more covincing then my own QT-diary?
I guess none of you will care enough to do it, but I'm sure you can see the overlaps between the QT chronology and this topic.
I did not invent this.
And I do not troll.

When you vote me, I do want you to add which of the two it is that I'm doing, and I know why you would think I would/could do such a thing.

Second, how is qwints scummy for bringing up a reason for you as scum? He is actively trying to lynch you today and stated that multiple times.

qwints is not only scummy for that (considering you claim to have a scumread on him you should know that), but yes, that "vase" made him scummy. First of all it's not his case, second it ignores anything that I had to say about it, thirdly he claims it comes up natural and without care in a "quick" reply, while this is obviously something pre-prepared, possibly something he even had in some word-document just to copy and paste at a time that is strategically beneficial to him. As in, now. Does that sound like something town would do?

Grim and Qwints are both in two of my suspected scumteams so I am good with lynching Grim.

I can't be the only one who sees how terible this is.

I guess I would prefer a qwints lynch, but not by much, and there doesn't seem to be enough support for one.

And this is possibly even worse.

I should have just hammered the shit out of you. Fuck.

[Grimgroove]

My only strong read right now and since a while is my townread on Wisdom, as evidenced, amongst others, in post 2343.
Yes, it's not much. I agree.
But painting me scummy over this? NO! BAD! Stop.

[Grimgroove]

Grim and Qwints are both in two of my suspected scumteams so I am good with lynching Grim.

I mean, really, one of these teams she's talking about actually has both me and qwints in a scumteam together. Can you actually read that with a straight face?

IF BOTH ME AND QWINTS WERE SCUM THERE WOULD BE NO WAY THAT NEITHER OF US WOULD VOTE/HAMMER YOU!!! THERE IS BUSSING AND THERE IS STUPID! WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING WOULD BE STUPID.

And even regardless of that, this defense of your stance of suddenly reading me as scum again after I obvtowned the hell out of everyone sounds mechanical as hell. It's not even a real reason. It just refers to your team-hypotheses. There have been literally more than 30 of said hypotheses in this game. They are not arguments. They are frameworks for thought out best, but not arguments, yet you use them as such here, very conveniently allowing you to be an opportunistic scumbag.

Shame on you.

[Grimgroove]

Why are you suddenly gung-ho for Elyse now that a wagon is mounting on you?

You are evil.

You know full well why I'm gung-ho over Elyse. Why? Because I literally said why I am in my last psots. Her last post was scummy.

This has very little to do with the wagon mounting on me, no matter how hard you'll be implying this. It's about the way Elyse is positioning herself into hopping on that wagon like an opportunistic little *mumblemumble*.

And I'm not voting her. qwints is even worse. Sneaky bastard.

[Grimgroove]

The main problem in this game is to tell apart the idiots from the scum.

But qwints is clearly not an idiot.

He's scum.

[Grimgroove]

Don't know what else I can say to all of this. Double standards all around me, Wisdom is getting AP-townpoints for simply rephrasing something I said only two posts earlier. Feels like I'm being bullied. Half of what I'm saying is simply ignored (qwints' "case"-post objectively sucks yet nobody sees why, my vote remains on him, hopefully as a reminder but I won't even count on that), the other half is purposely (so it feels) put in a bad light.

Whatever, Elyse can call me the weakest link as long as she wants, but whoever is town and part of my lynch, is the real weak link in my eyes. I can see when a lynch becauses inevitable and this is it, you've all convinced each other well enough in order not to feel bad about my lynch afterwards, even when I flip town. You'll just blame it on me, but I won't accept that. I'll grant you my reads have not been very helpful, but fuck if I haven't tried to convince you all I'm town. Transparent posting and thoughtprocesses, and a QT to boot. I feel like I've given you everything I could.

Yes, I'm using my QT for towncred. Everyone is trying to use something for towncred.... More people should actually be doing that. More obvtown would make this game a whole lot easier. But as opposed to Amrun I wasn't trying to get it over stuff I wasn't even part of (yes I know Amrun was town in the end, but as opposed to me, she had herself to blame for that lynch).
But towncred wasn't the reason why I made the QT. You attributing scummy reasons to it is, well, mindblowing. StrangerCoug confirmed him asking me to post my thoughts ffs. I would have had to be making up things to say to myself for days on end, trolling StrangerCoug in the process, just to use this as an argument later on. Doesn't any of you see how deranged that is?

Or I just made up that post on the spot, recalling every little intricate suspicion I had at the time. You won't believe me probably anyway, but I had genuinely forgotten I ever had such a strong scumread on Wisdom.

And yes, I expect you to connect the dots. The fact that you don't illustrates the nature of this town's play. Lazy.
If I feel stupid for anything, it's for putting so much time in this game.

[Grimgroove]

I didn't give it that much thought at the time, so now making me attribute in-depth reasons to that move is pretty senseless.

The reason why I didn't vote NS in the post you're referring to is probably because somewhere I knew a pressure-vote on someone that had posted around ten times at a point in a topic where there were more than 1000 posts wasn't going to do much. Given my earlier disposition to vote him over inactivity my point was clear.

But don't forget that was all we had on him, his inactivty, so excuse me for pursuing leads that you could do something with first before essentially going for the PoE-lynch. He still might as well have been inactive town. If you are who you claim to be, you should know this well enough considering you then replaced into such a slot.
In order for PoE's you need information about the other players first.

[Grimgroove]

And exactly 1 post of NS gave me some townvibes. That's it. He'd have to have been a very poor player if he didn't manage to make at least one of those.
But the way you're portraying this as me trying to provoke a universal townread on him by saying that, hoping he wouldn't get lynched, is just stretching things.

And I did rebuke the case. You don't have a case, now that I see it. You just nitpick on one small inconsistency. But like I have said time and again, my inconsistencies are so noticeable because I write down pretty much everything I think, back then even more so than now. A beginner's mistake of mine, because scum can easily find two posts of mine that contradict each other, just quote those posts without the evolution that has taken place between them, and call me scummy over it. Easy peasy. And that's what you're doing now. I'm the easiest target for a mislynch, and you're lazy scum taking advantage of it. I tried to avoid this, in vain, by posting my QT thoughts, but to no avail. Where I thought it would result in an obvtown read on me, people have been ridiculously paranoid about me making that up. I guess paranoia comes with the game, but I can't help to think it's been fueled by scum.

How about you replying to points I made against you?
In your last posts you've basically just tunneled on me over a case that is not a case, and have not adressed anything else.