Xenogears Mafia (Game Over)


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Post Post #3272 (isolation #200) » Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:53 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

@trust fund,

i'm not ruling out the possibility that muttley is extremely stupid and claiming the kill when he didn't actually kill saki (this was my first thought about it, because saki was a stupid kill either way after the rm flip)

i'm not ruling out the possibility that scum have some sort of limited method of achieving an extra kill (which would be rather convenient if true, because muttley is a useless fuck and has an excuse if he's still around at lylo despite being "confirmed")

and i'm not ruling out anything i might not currently be thinking of given how shit his actual play has been (as well as skullduggery's)
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Post Post #3275 (isolation #201) » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:01 pm

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bnb wrote:but the spectrum of players I want to pull in is small compared to where they are floating on the edges and it shouldn't feel that way. ns is obviously town and when I get in that small space of who to mebbe draw in, mastin may feel that way, mebbe mala, mebbe aj, mebbe nacho. mebbe ghostlin. I am also paranoid about all of those players.
this is how i feel about the game in general except for the five people i mentioned as town in #3249 (who i am almost willing to bet are town, or at least i have reasons that i think are very good to think these players are all town and if i'm wrong, then i'm dumb).

i have this gut feeling that nick and mala could both be town, and this is making me more paranoid of what's going on in this game because it means i'm really, really wrong about some people who i think are town.
trust fund wrote:I'm telling you that's shit and he needs to be in your town until cop guilty says otherwise pile.
no. but i don't think it matters because i won't be able to push a lynch on him any time soon even if i'm completely wrong in my paranoia.
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Post Post #3282 (isolation #202) » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:14 pm

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bnb wrote:mutley if you nked ftl I am pretty sure you would be given another pass. just saying
muttley is supposedly 1-shot (which is why i think if he's town, the way he used this shot was atrocious)
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Post Post #3287 (isolation #203) » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:22 pm

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ghostlin wrote:The thing that's really bothering me about my reads is they're not solidifying
this is the issue i've been having d2 and it's primarily because the people i want to post to get better reads on are mostly not posting or posting very little.
bnb wrote:tell me more

who would you have used it on
saki was obvtown after rm flip due to thezmon's interactions with rm. i had some issues with thezmon d1 before i knew rm was scum, but after the flip, no. that was just a bad shot, even if a saki kill would otherwise be a joyous event worthy of celebration.

who i would have used the shot on (assuming i'm muttley, and not me, because i would have killed muttley)? any of the low content posters from d1 that make sense as scum with rm. bro would obviously be my first choice here. if that wasn't already blatantly obvious.
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Post Post #3291 (isolation #204) » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:27 pm

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ftl wrote:While I'm Charles Barkley of this game
you're like 0 for 1 in scum flips so far. how's that working out for you, mr barkley?
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Post Post #3305 (isolation #205) » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:41 pm

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mutley wrote:saki was obv annoying poster that just annoyed. Worth blowing my whole load on him
what a fool he was!

if only he had studied your posts, and learned not to be an obv annoying poster that just annoyed.
mala wrote:At this point I don't even.
please start do evening.
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Post Post #3307 (isolation #206) » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:47 pm

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mala wrote:If I do nothing I'm lynched and if I do something I'm lynched.
well you wouldn't be lynched if you did something and it actually looked town.

i'm personally not convinced you're scum, but i wouldn't feel particularly bad if you're lynched because you're being antitown.

if you're town, why don't you help us find scum.

i'm not convinced ftl is scum, change my mind.

while you're at it, talk about who else you think is scum, and who you think is town.
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Post Post #3324 (isolation #207) » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:58 am

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you just killed all motivation i had for this game.
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Post Post #3325 (isolation #208) » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:58 am

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i can't believe i watched that youtube clip
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Post Post #3328 (isolation #209) » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:02 am

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so you don't think they can both be town?
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Post Post #3331 (isolation #210) » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:08 am

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ftl wrote:Look at the wagons that've grown on them who won't budge on either, and how those same people interacted with the Rach wagon.
what do you mean "who won't budge on either"

as far as i can tell, most of the nick wagon is fine with a mala lynch
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Post Post #3339 (isolation #211) » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:46 am

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ftl wrote:So, yeah, thoughts?
not quite on the level of mastin and TD, but if you keep reaching for it, one day you will achieve it.
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Post Post #3341 (isolation #212) » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:14 am

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why don't you analyse the possibility that both nick and mala are town and tell me what you think that means? it's a possibility i'm considering atm.
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Post Post #3391 (isolation #213) » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:13 pm

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[9] nickthename (Nachomamma8, BROseidon, Aj The Epic, Trust Fund, notscience, BeautyAndTheBeast, Mutleyddmc, Mac, Desperado)
[4] Malakittens (Ghostlin, nickthename, mastin2, Faster Than Light)
[2] BROseidon (zMuffinMan, Malakittens)
[2] Mac (Venmar, TiphaineDeath)

[1] Not Voting (Andrius)

just so no one can claim they accidentally hammered, i'm pretty sure this votecount is accurate.

at this point, i don't really give a shit about trying to defend nick or mala anymore. i think they could both be town, but i don't think i'm able to convince people of this. and i suspect it's likely that i'll die very early in this game if i'm right, and it'll be left to a handicapped charles barkley, a couple people screaming and yelling that they know who is scum, and some savants who figured out the game d1 to steer town towards a victory. and that makes me kind of sad. and i wish i wasn't as apathetic as i currently am towards this game.
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Post Post #3392 (isolation #214) » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:21 pm

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i'm also considering voting nick so i can be like "AHA I WAS RIGHT" if he flips town, and be like "AHA I KNEW IT, I'M GLAD I CHANGED MY MIND!" if he flips scum.

either way, i am amazing.
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Post Post #3395 (isolation #215) » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:39 pm

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i've tried that. it doesn't seem to work.
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Post Post #3401 (isolation #216) » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:36 am

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ftl wrote:Get it up with me.
no thanks. i don't swing that way.
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Post Post #3408 (isolation #217) » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:48 am

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ftl wrote:Players then can all just hop on the wagon without having ARTICULATION for WHY, and if it turns out in a scum lynch, yattai, town points all around, but if it's a mislynch, they get to all just hide behind either pointing fingers at B&B or the smoke-screen that B&B allowed for scum to hide in that wagon.
now you're getting to something i pointed out roughly 20 pages ago, and said this was one of the major qualms i had with the nick wagon.

but no one felt like discussing it at the time.

and nobody will discuss it now.

because fuck this game.
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Post Post #3458 (isolation #218) » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:12 pm

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nacho wrote:
In post 588, BROseidon wrote:The general ease with which people are handing out townreads is making me nervous, given that I abused the fuck out of that last game to coast to the win.
This seems genuine.
I disagree for two reasons. The first is that I saw this as similar to his initial "omg nobody is voting me for being scum in the last game!" comment. It felt fake, it felt like he was bringing it to make people think "hey, i was scum there doing it, this time i'm town and not doing it, give me a town read!" The second reason is that I think this was an attempt to discredit the town reads being handed out at the time (which, iirc, were mostly to players like bnb, sos, mac, ghostlin, and I was townreading ftl at the time, etc etc).
nacho wrote:
In post 658, BROseidon wrote:Andy I have 0 understanding of your thought process in townreading me because you don't talk about why I'm town. We have a lot of differing reads, so it's certainly not a case of "his reads look good, must be town."
This looks good too.
*shrug* Maybe it's because I'm already scum reading him, but this looks null at best to me. I'm pretty sure I have used this line before as scum when someone is townreading me, and you've probably said something similar as well.
nacho wrote:
In post 2455, BROseidon wrote:So it's scummy to let town stall out to a no-lynch>?

Got it.
BRO framed this like Rach was gonna flip town, which makes me feel good about him.
It was an immediate reaction to BnB calling his hammer scummy. I don't see anything that indicates he thought RM would flip town.
nacho wrote:
In post 2472, BROseidon wrote:2322- And yet I’m the one who hammered the scum four hours before deadline ^_^ (we’ll ignore FTL showing up as a 12th vote)

Okay I’m just being a dick about this now. #sorrynotsorry.
And this gloating reads town as fuck.
Again, maybe because I'm already scum reading him, but this was null to me at best. I see this as him milking the fact that he apparently could have let the day stall out to a no-lynch - in reality, this is utter bullshit, and he knows it (maybe in a different game with less activity it may have been more valid, but in this game? lol no). Conversely, I see the hammer as BRO-scum wanting to milk the fact that he didn't let it stall to a no-lynch and instead lynched scum. He was already under heavy suspicion at the time. It's not unreasonable that he did it so that he could bring it up the following day (which he did in his very first post, surprise surprise).
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Post Post #3460 (isolation #219) » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:22 pm

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aj wrote:I'll do so tomorrow as well, but besides Mastin, I trust the Nick wagon as a whole more than the Mala wagon.
Who are you talking about specifically here, and why does this matter when you think mala is scum much more strongly than you think nick is (to the point that you've admitted you have doubts about nick because of your other scum reads)

Also, how the fuck is sheeping your town reads even a legitimate excuse. This is fucking lazy, and just serves as an excuse. If nick flips town, you have th convenient, "oh, I thought my town reads were right!" excuse.

It worries me that you've seemingly become more and more confident with this nick lynch without much reason.
aj wrote:So I asked BnB if they would help with Mala tomorrow IF I helped with Nick today.
I hate this reasoning so much, and this is the reason I will never be part of a town bloc. Trying to set up lynches like this is fucking dumb.

But hey, since we're in the habit of setting up lynches, if nick
and
mala are consecutively lynched today and tomorrow and both flip town, I want AJ dead the following day, no questions asked.
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Post Post #3461 (isolation #220) » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:32 pm

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bro wrote:Scum PGO, maybe. If those are a thing.
You cannot be serious.
bro wrote:There're still the few MS posts I don't like
Which ones and why?
bro wrote:Venmar is the only name on it I don't like.
I've missed it if you've stated why, so why?

bnb wrote:bro keeps moving up up up the town tier
Why?

If you happened to be wrong about nick and mala (I forget if you're reading mala as scum, but I'm just going to assume you are), would this change?
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Post Post #3463 (isolation #221) » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:16 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

BRO wrote:Why is scum-PGO not possible? I'm saying I think he's scum, so I think either his claim is fake or he's a scum PGO.
No. You did not say you think he's lying. That would have been the first thing I think you would have said if you were town (especially since that was the question nacho was asking you), and I've been dwelling on what you said about scum PGO so I'm going to go on a little bit of a rant here.

Someone tell me how what BRO just said about a scum PGO makes any sense from a town perspective.

If BRO was town and legitimately thinks Venmar is scum, he should think Venmar is lying about being a PGO. That would be the rational thinking from a town mindset. Because a scum-PGO is the most over-powered role I could think of in a large game like this.

So instead of thinking the idea of a scum-PGO is absurd, he doesn't go to the first reasonable possibility (that Venmar is lying) like he should have.

I could see scum-BRO thinking town-Venmar is a PGO and trying to make it seem like Venmar could be this magically fucking OP scum-PGO, but town-BRO thinking this? Really?
bro wrote:The two I linked to earlier where on day 1 where he says "lurkerbro is townbro" and then "lurkerbro is scumbro" later.
I think I already mentioned that the inconsistency here is weird, but why do you think scum-MS would blatantly lie about it and go back on it later? What possible benefit would this serve scum-MS? Or are you just saying this was a mistake and he was lying about his reasons and somehow forgot what he said about you earlier?
bro wrote:Instead, he used vague appeals to meta, like "I scumread Rach last game and this is not scum Rach" despite the fact, as I've pointed out, that Rach last game played more like her town self than this game because she could use the multiball to cover the big weakness in her scumgame (that she can't fabricate scumhunting).
Oh, really? Then what about the 10 other people who said the same thing about RM D1? Are they all scum for the same reason, too? Because I can go back and point to how many people said they either think RM is town or RM always plays like this if I need to.

If it wasn't already obvious, I think this line of reasoning is extremely shallow.
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Post Post #3477 (isolation #222) » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:44 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

bro wrote:1) Because your pushing weak semantics, and 2) Scum PGO may be fine. I only know what my role is, what NS's is, what the flips are, and what claims are in play. I don't have enough information to gauge whether a scum-PGO makes sense or not.
it's not whether or not a scum-pgo is possible. it's how likely it is. especially since scum-venmar claiming PGO if he actually is a PGO is the
stupidest fucking thing ever
. and it's the fact that you didn't automatically assume he's lying if he's scum. the fact you even posit the possibility he's a scum-pgo who claimed it so that no town PRs would target him (essentially making his role useless for the sake of what? being policy lynched down the line?) is utterly absurd and i think you not realising this is you not thinking like town.
bro wrote:The people who did it most prominently and in the laziest way were Venmar and Mala. Guess who got scumreads out of it.
mala
might
be scum (i currently don't think she is), but i'm almost certain venmar is town. i do, however, think that there is scum pushing the idea that these two are scum.
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Post Post #3489 (isolation #223) » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:54 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

@ghost,

i'm discussing it because i want to hear the reasons people think venmar is scum. well, specifically why bro thinks he's scum.

he is among the small list of players i would confidently bet on being town this game.
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Post Post #3499 (isolation #224) » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:03 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

@bro,

so you have no other reasons than the way he talked about the RM wagon, which we and you chose not to respond to except that you were going to go back and look at his interactions with the andrius wagon?

btw did you ever do that?
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Post Post #3506 (isolation #225) » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:08 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

trust fund wrote:That's almost as bad as thinking there'd be a scum vig
i can see the endgame now.

notscience, mutley and lynchbait at lylo.

it makes me sad thinking about it because it's a very real possibility.
bro wrote:Pushed Andy/Nacho scumteam.
. . . that was a push?

in your opinion, why did venmar never vote andrius during this... push?
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Post Post #3521 (isolation #226) » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:28 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

bro wrote:He generally doesn't talk about Andy.
that would generally lead me to believe he
wasn't
pushing the idea that andy is scum. which sort of contradicts your idea that he did do this...
bro wrote:Isoing now, did control+f for "Andy" and got back surprisingly little. Skimming everything now to make sure there isn't some in-context stuff I missed.
ok, i'll make it easy for you since i have read venmar's entire iso today (and this is why i am confident he is town).

there was a point near the end of the d1 where he mentioned voting andrius over rm, but that's it. for reference, and i don't think this is scummy.
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Post Post #3524 (isolation #227) » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:35 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

trust fund wrote:And I still want to know why you think scum has a vig.
it's not that i think this
is
the case. it's just a possibility i'm not stupidly ruling out, given how fucking shit mutley's play has been, compounded with skullduggery being just as bad.

also if mutley
is
scum, then him coasting to lylo isn't all that fucking difficult given how many people are ruling out the possibility of a scum vig, and the fact that he is useless and won't be nked if he is town.

regardless, why the fuck is this such a big deal to you? do you not have other things in this game to comment on?

or are you still toying with the idea that i'm scum or something? if so, why?

bro wrote:What's more relevant is how he tried to derail the Rach wagon.
but again, if this was his intention, then there were surely better ways he could have gone about it, don't you agree?

he could have actually pushed it strongly. he could have voted for a legitimate counter-wagon. he could have tried to discredit the cases with more than "rm is town coz meta".

but he didn't do any of this. instead he voiced his (imo genuine-looking) opinion and a few times then left it alone while pursuing his scum reads...
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Post Post #3527 (isolation #228) » Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:06 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

bro wrote:This is how town would try to discredit a case. That's the point I'm making.
no. that is an issue of playstyle. and you're being selective here, because
nobody
who was against the RM wagon d1 did anything more than venmar did in response to the cases against RM.

just as an example of how selective you're being and how weak your case on venmar is, out of interest, do you think TD is scum for the way he's talked about the nick wagon today?
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Post Post #3531 (isolation #229) » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:13 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

aj wrote:I assume you're asking who I'm trusting on Nick?
no i don't care if you have some town reads on the nick wagon (and how questionable those town reads are is another matter altogether), i'm asking who you are talking about on the mala wagon.

now we have a couple things here. you think mala is scum. you think mala is far more likely scum than nick (at least, this is what i've gathered from your posts). you think nick doesn't make sense as scum with mala. you see far more evidence to suggest mala is scum. but you're voting nick because you "trust" the nick wagon more.

so i asked you why you think this. and you gave me some town reads on the nick wagon which i don't give a shit about. i'm asking who on the mala wagon you
don't
trust, and why some town reads being on the nick wagon is justification for voting there.

and so far all i've seen from you is you saying "well if i lend my support there today they'll help me lynch mala tomorrow" which is a fucking bullshit excuse.

you said you have additional reasons to think nick is scum, and have thought so since d1, but they're so weak they're laughable. and i've already talked in depth about why i think this. and have not seen you justify your position on why nick is scum reasonably. i broke down exactly why i thought this in which you ignored or didn't read.

quite literally, the only legitimate reason i've seen from you for voting nick today is that what he said about the RM wagon could conceivably be something that makes sense as scum. *clap* *clap*

i mean, at least you put more effort in than most of the other people on the wagon, but don't pretend you have a legitimate reason for thinking nick is scum over mala. and don't pretend that having some town reads on the nick wagon is justification for voting him.
aj wrote:but I CAN'T get enough mala support as is.
this is a pathetic excuse after what happened d1.
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Post Post #3537 (isolation #230) » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:34 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

bro wrote:NS is IC and SoS flipped town. Are you trying to tell me that nobody discrediting the wagon was scum?
it is a possibility i'm actually seriously considering, as unlikely as it might be. of the people that voiced any sort of strong opinion against rm, i think mala seems the most likely scum, but i don't even have very strong feelings about mala being scum so i'm not sure. there are players like trust fund who apparently thought rm was scum all d1 but never voted her until the wagon on andrius died. there are players who held no strong opinion one way or another and avoided conversations about her (either because they were not active like you, or because they simply weren't talking about her much). i also find it extremely unlikely that no scum was bussing dead weight RM, and find it far more likely that scum would have voiced support for the RM wagon than opposed it. the only reason i could see scum protecting RM, or trying to derail that wagon, is if they really valued her role. because otherwise, she was perfect bus material.
bro wrote:Also I hate how TD is playing today, but his day 1 play at least demonstrated some level of towniness. Venmar doesn't have that.
td was
one
example of why your reasons for thinking venmar are scum are extremely weak.

if your only point against venmar is that there were probably scum opposing the RM lynch, and you think venmar is one of them because... then all i can really ask is why you think that, because i haven't seen you really justify it with anthing other than bringing up quotes (that are similar to those of anyone not on the RM wagon) and suggesting he's scum but others aren't. *shrug*
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Post Post #3544 (isolation #231) » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:46 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

ftl wrote:At least I'm playing, damn it.
this game would be fun if there weren't approximately ten people currently not playing the game.
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Post Post #3552 (isolation #232) » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:30 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

ftl wrote:Name them.
nick, mala, andrius, mutley, trust fund, notscience, mac, td and to some extent mastin and desperado have been underwhelming presences today (desperado in particular given i liked his d1 play but d2 he hasn't really looked like he is trying to figure things out)

how the fuck do you not notice this?
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Post Post #3555 (isolation #233) » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:44 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

trust fund? really? maybe at the very start of d1 they were slightly active, but i've literally seen no content from them whatsoever after the first real-time day of this day phase. maybe show me why this isn't the case? because iirc they've been harping on about nothing for a while now.

nick's been posting, but his posts barely contain any content that's worth actually reading. it took him being wagoned hard for him to start providing reads. and this is fucking disappointing because i don't even think he's scum.

and mastin has been posting but he's largely ignoring any new information. he has his reads, he's set in these reads, and i'm not seeing any attempt from him to really reformulate these reads in any way, which is why i think he's been underwhelming.
ftl wrote:How do you propose we give incentive to post?
i don't know. that's why i'm starting not to care. at this point, i'm hoping i get killed tonight so i don't have to deal with it. i hope i'm very wrong about mala and nick and that they're both scum and this game is that easy.
desperado wrote:What does it look like I'm doing then?
i don't like the fact that prior to me asking for your reads, you were doing basically nothing. d1 i liked how you came in, gave your reads, put a vote down, etc. d2 prior to me prodding you about it, there was none of this. now you're posting, but i'm not seeing the same figuring-out-the-game stuff that i saw d1 in your approach to rm and the rest of the game. that bothers me.
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Post Post #3556 (isolation #234) » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:46 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

@ftl, go to the second page of trust fund's iso and look at the "strident" posting you say he's done today and tell me how much game-relevant content you actually see.
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Post Post #3562 (isolation #235) » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:16 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

ftl wrote:and has had solid content across posts for the day.
um, no. the very first day of d2 there was stuff about his "role" and stuff with BRO. after that he has literally provided no content outside of a vote on nick and talking about how mutley is town for vig shot (this isn't fucking content).

but i don't really give a shit about arguing this. your definition of content is obviously far different to mine.
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Post Post #3564 (isolation #236) » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:38 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

nothing. i have no shits to give. i'm constipated. i'm just going to lurk until this day ends and hope scum mercy-kills me tonight.
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Post Post #3577 (isolation #237) » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:22 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

venmar wrote:kind of ignoring interaction with me a bit
i don't agree with your mac read. you're not voting the main wagons i disagree with. i think you're town (among my strongest reads at this point). i don't see much of a point in interacting with you when you're not opposed to a bro lynch. :/ i trust that you're town and i have a feeling that you will be a driving force in a town victory (even if no one else can see this atm) but i don't see a need to interact with you at this point.
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Post Post #3603 (isolation #238) » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:45 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

andy wrote:and Muffin moved.
i did? where was i before and why did i move?
andy wrote:You're missing a few things with this claim.
to be fair, the lack of character claim probably has nothing to do with his alignment, given scum prob have fake character claims anyway.
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Post Post #3607 (isolation #239) » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:56 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

that would be a dumb idea that will most likely get you modkilled for quoting role PM and i wouldn't put it past the mod to give scum fake-claims that have pictures, so it wouldn't prove anything
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Post Post #3613 (isolation #240) » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:10 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

andy wrote:obviously, but there's no reason not to do it as town
there's equally no reason not to do it as scum. :/

why do you think nick is scum?
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Post Post #3618 (isolation #241) » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:16 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

assuming your entire scum list is town, who would you want to vote today, andy? (you cannot say yourself)
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Post Post #3643 (isolation #242) » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:39 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

are you claiming you can confirm them
today
, ftl? because if not, your idea is dumb.
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Post Post #3645 (isolation #243) » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:40 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

you should be proud
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Post Post #3649 (isolation #244) » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:49 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

does it have to be nacho? if you have something that can confirm someone today... why not... you know... MALA?
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Post Post #3652 (isolation #245) » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:56 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

please stop lying for the sake of a dumb gambit. it doesn't need to be nacho.

and no, nacho is not a better confirm because if nick is town and mala is town then that's far more information than confirming nacho if he's town.
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Post Post #3654 (isolation #246) » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:06 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

BECAUSE YOU AND MALA ARE THE TWO MAIN WAGONS TODAY. IF NACHO IS TOWN, CONFIRMING HIM MEANS NOTHING TO ME.
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Post Post #3658 (isolation #247) » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:22 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

yeah, whatever. back to lurking. fuck this game. gl convincing nacho to claim for the sake of your gambit.
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Post Post #3671 (isolation #248) » Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:33 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

Vote: malakittens
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Post Post #3675 (isolation #249) » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:58 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

mutley wrote:How has there not been a lynch yet
For a lynch to occur, there needs to be a certain number of votes on a particular player. In this case, the required number is ten. There hasn't been ten votes on a single player this day phase, so a lynch hasn't occurred.

I'm around for a while if you have any other pressing questions.
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Post Post #3698 (isolation #250) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:22 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

damn. i was hoping either i'd die or i'd be able to tell majiffy to SHUT THE FUCK UP for the rest of the game. that's disappointing.

@BRO,
updated scum list now

i grew extremely paranoid of an andrius-nacho team overnight. especially since it looked like nacho knew nick was a bad lynch but never did anything to stop it.

so...

someone tell me what they think was going on with these votecounts and why the nick wagon never picked up steam as a counterwagon to RM. you can probably already guess my opinion on it. i want to see others.

Votecount 1.18

[5] RachMarie (zMuffinMan, Andrius, Desperado, Aj The Epic, Nachomamma8)
[4] nickthename (mastin2, notscience, BeautyAndTheBeast, Faster Than Light)
[3] Andrius (Trust Fund, Malakittens, RachMarie)
[3] mastin2 (BROseidon, nickthename, TiphaineDeath)
[2] Mutleyddmc (Ghostlin, Saki)
[1] BROseidon (Sound of Silence)
[1] Saki (Mutleyddmc)
[1] TiphaineDeath (Venmar)

[1] Not Voting (Mac)


Votecount 1.19

[7] RachMarie (zMuffinMan, Andrius, Desperado, Aj The Epic, Nachomamma8, TiphaineDeath, Ghostlin)
[5] nickthename (mastin2, notscience, BeautyAndTheBeast, Faster Than Light, Mutleyddmc)
[3] Andrius (Trust Fund, Malakittens, RachMarie)
[2] mastin2 (BROseidon, nickthename)
[1] BROseidon (Sound of Silence)
[1] Mutleyddmc (Saki)
[1] TiphaineDeath (Venmar)

[1] Not Voting (Mac)
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Post Post #3701 (isolation #251) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:22 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

i don't think mala is scum, and i will probably replace out if a repeat of d2 happens today with mala instead of nick. i'm not interested in arguing why mala is a bad lynch, and i don't expect to hear any good responses to the objections i have against it. venmar is also a horrible candidate at this point.

i will say this, though. in light of the nick flip, mala's d2 posts look townish, and the fact that she never showed any interest in jumping on the nick wagon is a good sign.

my guess is that even lynching randomly from those on the nick wagon would more likely hit scum than a mala lynch.

which reminds me. i want to hear why people think the nick wagon stalled so hard d2. i recall hearing a lot about how it was so obviously a town-driven wagon.
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Post Post #3702 (isolation #252) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:24 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

[10] nickthename (Nachomamma8, BROseidon, Aj The Epic, Trust Fund <- lynching randomly within that is likely to hit scum. maybe add desperado in as a possibility from the later portion of the wagon.
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Post Post #3707 (isolation #253) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:01 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

i don't give two shits what you think about how 'immature' that is. there is no good case on mala. there was no good case on nick. if a mala wagon happens for the same shitty reasons the nick wagon happened, then yes i'd rather replace out than deal with a bunch of morons.

i'm fucking over having to argue with people who don't listen to logical arguments and i don't enjoy playing games where i can debunk basically every single point for nick being and still have people go, "no lol nick is scum!" <- YES, THE FUCKING ARGUMENT FOR NICK BEING SCUM AT THE END OF THE DAY WAS NO BETTER THAN, "LOL HE IS SCUM!"

it's a fucking joke and i'd rather not even play if that's going to happen.

also my point in bringing up those votecounts is because that was the height of the nick wagon d1 and it never developed any further as a counterwagon to RM.

why do you think this is?
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Post Post #3708 (isolation #254) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:05 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

if you actually have reasons that you think are decent for voting mala, then i don't care if you vote mala. although i will look at those reasons and assess what i think of them and talk about any i disagree with. if the mala wagon is just "mala is scum" as seems to be the case with bro's vote, then yeah, i'm going to be pretty pissed off if the same shit that happened d2 happens today.
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Post Post #3710 (isolation #255) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:11 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

yes. ok. but i'm asking why you think he never developed as a counter-wagon to RM. i know a lot of people were apathetic towards him or not reading him as scum, etc, i'm asking why you think it is that no real support for this counter-wagon ever developed.

i'm thinking there's a decent chance that the entire nick wagon was town. so i'm trying to figure out why nick never developed as a counter-wagon. the only options i'm left with are that scum were more interested in bussing RM, scum were not active at the time, scum didn't want to take contradictory stances to ones they'd already taken on nick or i'm wrong about my town reads. those are my guesses in order of most->least likely.
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Post Post #3713 (isolation #256) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:42 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

bro wrote:your fucking refusal to engage with what I've posted.
except i've engaged with almost
everything
you've posted, including your non-existent reasoning for nick being scum and your extremely poor reasoning for venmar being scum.

talk about the "way" mala has coasted and why it's "scummy"

i'm aware you've called things scummy, i've yet to see you explain why they are.
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Post Post #3714 (isolation #257) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:43 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

also talk about why you so strongly felt mala is scum but stood by your vote on nick for reasons that were pathetic at best.
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Post Post #3716 (isolation #258) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:11 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

actually, on second thought, i'm not all that opposed to a derp mala wagon, as long as a mala town flip means powerlynching the fuck out of bro and aj the following days.
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Post Post #3758 (isolation #259) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:22 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

andrius wrote:scummy as fuck
no.
andrius wrote:SCUM
mastin
Venmar
when you start including scum in your scum reads, we'll talk. at least you've got one, maybe two scum in your leaning scum list.
andrius wrote:but muffin is also trying really hard to get my attention
then lynch me you fuck
.

it's rather odd that you can't tell how obvtown i am, or you're pretending you can't tell. if you think i'm scum, try to start a wagon on me. i want to see what reasons you can come up with and who joins you.

desperado wrote:This reeks of an FTL chainsaw.
no. no, it doesn't.
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Post Post #3761 (isolation #260) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:26 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

BRO wrote:He posted a lot of IIoA and fence-sitting stuff without engaging with what was actually going on around him.
i don't see that in his early posts this game. the only thing i see in nhammen's early posting that could possibly be called iioa is his comment on #99, and that's a stretch. he was asking decent questions and while his analysis wasn't brilliant, it didn't really come across as scummy. regardless, even if you were right that he's posted similarly as scum before, do you know he doesn't post similarly as town?
BRO wrote:Mala comes in, doesn't post anything of substance
what do you consider "substance" then? i suppose you could say that some of her early posts when she just replaced in lacked "substance", but i don't see how you can suggest she posted nothing of substance.
BRO wrote:it's her trying to derail a wagon on scum for reasons that were not just bad, but horrible
other than the weird thing mala said at the end of D1 (which, imo, points to mala-town more than mala-scum because RM's lynch was practically inevitable at the point she said this), she spent most of D1 saying that the points against RM were something RM does as either alignment. whether this is true or false, i don't recall seeing any sort of strong push to get people off the RM wagon. yeah, there were mentions of her thinking the cases on RM were not alignment-indicative but it wasn't like an incessant push, and it wasn't even a strong push. it was the kind of disagreement i'd expect to see from someone who doesn't agree with a case, and it didn't seem to be anything more than that.

i felt it's a little strange that mala came into the game with a "bad gut feeling" about RM and never really pursued this (and this one of the only reasons i found myself thinking mala could be scum d2) but i don't see the supposed push against the RM wagon as scummy.
BRO wrote:it got pressure off her in the short-term while not giving any content for the rest of us to work with should we decide to ultimately lynch her.
huh? no. her "coasting" did not get any pressure off her, and the fact that you're even suggesting this baffles me.

besides that, she
was
technically posting content, albeit not much. now, whether or not you think the content was good is another matter altogether. i personally didn't mind what little content she did happen to post. and i felt her frustration came across as more town than scum.

do you have a problem with the actual content she was posting? because hey, for someone that has a scum read on her, you strangely neglected to comment on anything she was actually saying D2. i don't recall you even acknowledging, say, and 3308. if you are (were) so strongly reading mala as scum,
why did you avoid interacting with her for most of D2?
Why did
you
coast on your nick vote for reasons that were plain horrible? (iirc it was... one of nick/bnb is scum because ~reasons~. and nick could be scum because it's hard to get him lynched.)
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Post Post #3763 (isolation #261) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:46 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

nacho wrote:I think Venmar is town.
when did this happen?
ghost wrote:Well, we could start with Mac, who I've noticed is posting elsewhere but not here.
i am almost certain mac is town. mac replaces bnb in my list of people who should never be touched in this game unless certain things change. along with venmar, TD, FTL and you. mastin is just outside this list.

anyway

Vote: BRO
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Post Post #3774 (isolation #262) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:12 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

i'm not saying there wasn't "logic" behind your suspicion that one of nick/BnB could be scum. i'm saying the reason you thought that was shit. which makes your vote on nick shit. the thing is, you seemed to have so much more conviction that mala is scum, but you were perfectly fine with sitting on a nick vote because you thought one of bnb/nick could be scum. . . . . . . and if you were so convinced that mala is scum, why did you not take every opportunity to show why you thought this when mala was actually posting. why not talk about the posts from her that you thought were bad? why were you ignoring posts like 3306/3308 if they were so bad?
bro wrote:which look a lot like scum trying not to really ruffle any more feathers.
it looks more like town who's trying to figure out the game, imo.
bro wrote:And there was a pretty fucking strong push to get people off of Rach's wagon. Andy and Nick BOTH got counterwagoned.
yeah but the push for andrius's lynch was
mainly
from the same person trying to push the nick lynch. mala herself was saying she didn't like the reasons for the RM lynch but there was no strong counter-push from her. i suppose you could argue that she didn't need to strongly counter-push because others were doing it, but then your case would boil down to "mala was wrong, so i think she's scum"

btw, since you're calling the d1 nick wagon a counter-wagon, who do you think was scum on it? mastin, FTL or mutley? because the others are conftown.
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Post Post #3777 (isolation #263) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:15 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

@BRO,

Oh, you have the entire D1 nick wagon listed in your town reads. How was that a counterwagon?
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Post Post #3781 (isolation #264) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:23 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

hey desp,

your suspicion of ghost seems to be predicated on ftl being scum (correct me if im wrong) so why are you voting him and not ftl?
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Post Post #3789 (isolation #265) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:19 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

desp wrote:Do you think I should be wasting my time trying to achieve a lynch that realistically isn't going to happen?
do you realistically think a ghost lynch is going to happen? it probably has
less
support than a ftl lynch.

bro wrote:1) Why was the reason shit?
because your reason boiled down to nothing more than that you thought nick vs bnb was TvS. this is not a good reason to vote nick. if you think it is, then i have nothing more to say to you about this. you can claim "gamestate" and other bullshit reasons for thinking this could be true, but the fact that no one agreed with you about this should have clued you in that you were wrong. ALSO the reason is shit because you seem to have had far more reason for thinking mala is scum, yet you never tried to push her seriously after the first few posts of d1.
bro wrote:She hasn't strongly tried to do anything. Does that not ring as suspect to you at all?
it is suspect in the sense that anyone who does this is being somewhat antitown. it is far from a scum tell, though. i felt kind of lost d2, and i know the mollie head of bnb also said she had the same feelings about the game d2. i may have been pushing my suspicion strongly d1, but i played pretty shit d2. does that make me scum?

i attribute mala's lack of strong pushes more to someone trying to figure out the game and not being confident, rather than scum coasting. either is possible, i suppose, but i see no strong reason to suspect the latter.
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Post Post #3790 (isolation #266) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:20 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

first few posts of d2*
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Post Post #3791 (isolation #267) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:27 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

D2BRO: i think mala is scum for x, y, z, BUT i think one of nick and bnb is scum, and bnb is pushing a nick lynch, so i will join bnb and vote nick, even though nobody agrees that my reasoning for thinking one of bnb/nick is scum is sound.

if you think this isn't an accurate representation, tell me why.
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Post Post #3795 (isolation #268) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:26 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

BRO wrote:You're missing the parts where I townread bnb, and the momentum swung to the nick wagon.
YEAH I AM MISSING THAT BECAUSE IT DIDN'T FUCKING HAPPEN.

JUST TO BE SURE I'M NOT MISTAKEN HERE, I WENT THROUGH YOUR ISO AND TRIED TO FIND SOMEWHERE, ANYWHERE, THAT YOU EVEN IMPLIED YOU THOUGHT BNB WAS TOWN. HERE IS A QUOTE FROM AFTER YOU VOTED NICK
BRO wrote:I would feel like that would have to be contingent on BnB scum, which disagrees with the fact that I find nick scummier right now and I think they're mutually-exclusive as scum.
YOU DON'T SAY YOU THINK SOMEONE IS SCUMMIER THAN SOMEONE YOU'RE READING AS TOWN, YOU SAY YOU THINK BNB IS TOWN.

AND HEY, GUESS WHAT, I CAN'T FIND YOU CALLING BNB TOWN ANYWHERE. SO WHY DON'T YOU SHOW ME WHAT I MISSED?

caps lock was probably unnecessary but idgaf
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Post Post #3796 (isolation #269) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:29 pm

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bro wrote:And no, the fact that nobody else agreed with me should not clue me in to it being wrong, considering that entire towns have been duped a multitude of times.
it's not that nobody agreed with you. it's that nobody agreed with your reasons. because your reasons were that... you couldn't see them both being town? or something?
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Post Post #3797 (isolation #270) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:35 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

In post 2472, BROseidon wrote:Okay one of BnB or Nick is definitely scum at this point. I don’t see this not being the case.
In post 2541, BROseidon wrote:
In post 2537, Nachomamma8 wrote:here are your interactions with rach + the hammer vote
HOLY FUCK I SAID I THINK ONE OF YOU IS SCUM. YOU MADE A GOOD CASE AGAINST HIM, BUT THE CONTEXT OF THAT CASE (BEING COUNTER TO THE RACH WAGON) MAKES ME EYE IT SUSPICIOUSLY. YOU WOULD KNOW HER ALIGNMENT IF YOU'RE HER PARTNER, WHICH IS, Y'KNOW, WHAT I'M SAYING IS PLAUSIBLE. YOU SEEM TO BE FAILING TO UNDERSTAND HOW I AM VIEWING THIS GAME: SCUM KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON. SCUM TRY TO CONSTRUCT A NARRATIVE THAT LEADS TO THEIR WIN. TOWN'S JOB IS TO FIGURE OUT THIS NARRATIVE TO FIGURE OUT WHO THE SCUM ARE. YOU AND NICK BOTH MAKE SENSE BASED ON WHAT HAPPENED, DEPENDING ON WHICH OF TWO VERY LIKELY NARRATIVES WAS IN PLAY.
In post 3027, BROseidon wrote:The reason why I think one of nick/BnB is scum is because of the case bnb have been bringing against nick combined with the timing of the case. The case is solid; a lot of people nominally scumreading someone but not really doing anything about it is suspicious as fuck, but they brought it up counter to the Rach wagon. It's either BnB have a really solid case, or BnB are scum who've created a really solid case, which they tried to use to derail a lynch on a buddy and are now trying to use to push through a mislynch (I'm leaning towards the former right now).
so yeah these are your reasons for thinking one of nick and BnB is scum.

it boils down to you thinking that nick
could
have been a counterwagon to RM, but maybe it wasn't, and maybe nick was actually scum.

the biggest problem i have here is that you're just positing a possibility with no actual reasoning to think that one of them had to be scum. BnB's case on nick wasn't even good (i pretty much dismantled every argument they put forth against nick D1 and was met with majiffy going "nahuh ur dum")

it's even worse in hindsight since we now know they're both town.
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Post Post #3801 (isolation #271) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:46 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

no, you didn't say you think bnb is town, you said you think nick is the scummier of the two. that leaves your options open because you're not committing to a town read on bnb.
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Post Post #3807 (isolation #272) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:55 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

bro wrote:And leaving options open is bad because...
i didn't say it was bad, but it completely contradicts the idea that you were reading bnb as town, and it's something scum fucking love to do when they call something TvS.
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Post Post #3809 (isolation #273) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:14 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

bro wrote:I was reading bnb as town because I was reading nick as scum.
so you say, but your only mention of bnb after voting nick is that nick was the scummier of the two. that implies you think bnb is scummy, just not as scummy as nick.

you're suggesting that you thinking they don't make sense as scum together somehow implies that you thinking nick was scum implied you thought bnb was town, which is utter bullshit.

if i say i think X and Y are scummy, but i don't think they make sense as scum together, saying i think one is scummier than the other in no way implies that i think the other is town. it only suggests i think the other is town if i'm right about the first being scum.
bro wrote:And why do scum like calling something TvS when they know it's TvT? Why wouldn't they call it TvT to build towncred?
... ... ... sure, that's another option for scum, i guess. but seeing as we're specifically talking about instances where someone calls something TvS in order to potentially get two mislynches, i don't see what the point of bringing this up is.
bro wrote:I'm starting to doubt a few of my reads at both ends...
which ones?
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Post Post #3812 (isolation #274) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:34 pm

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bro wrote:...which is why I was going to push bnb today
which just proves you weren't reading bnb as town... so uh, yeah.
bro wrote:Because the odds of me getting a mislynch on bnb before I myself got lynched would have been...
if you legitimately think this, then HOW THE FUCK DOES (1) MAKE SENSE?
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Post Post #3819 (isolation #275) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:48 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

ftl wrote:He -was- going to push BnB,
But now that he knows the BnB flip was a mislynch, he realizes the odds would have been...
that doesn't even make sense. think about it.
bro wrote:If they were town, hopefully I'd be able to figure it out and move elsewhere.
so you think you were going to somehow magically figure it out, even though you couldn't figure it out all of D1/D2?

colour me unconvinced. the simpler explanation is that you're scum, your reasoning for thinking one of bnb/nick was scum was poor, and no you conveniently don't have to deal with the backlash you would have gotten had you tried to push bnb today.
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Post Post #3820 (isolation #276) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:52 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

PS: town-you should realise the possible lose-lose situation that you pushing bnb could have caused if you did happen to push bnb today and didn't happen figure out they were town.
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Post Post #3821 (isolation #277) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:57 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

hey varsoon.

why do you have RM in your leaning scum pile when you clearly thought she was town. iirc you thought she was town, ms thought she was scum, and you were against her lynch. it's kinda funny that you're pretending you were leaning scum on her.
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Post Post #3823 (isolation #278) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:02 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

i'm guessing the leaning scum thing on nick was a warmup before the actual game, right, charles?

i'd "get it up" with you today but most of your scum/leaning scum reads suck.
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Post Post #3825 (isolation #279) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:08 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

ok, i'll get it up with you, ftl

Unvote
Vote: Trust Fund
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Post Post #3829 (isolation #280) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:14 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

ftl wrote:Give me where you stand on those players, and why pressuring/lynching them wouldn't be a good thing for town.
Godly One wrote:
ghost wrote:Well, we could start with Mac, who I've noticed is posting elsewhere but not here.
i am almost certain mac is town. mac replaces bnb in my list of people who should never be touched in this game unless certain things change. along with venmar, TD, FTL and you. mastin is just outside this list.
trust fund wrote:That way we'd either have confirmed liar; or i'd be dead and he'd be confirmed town.
this doesn't even make sense
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Post Post #3833 (isolation #281) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:19 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

@trust fund,

well, that's disappointing, because i value your opinion.
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Post Post #3834 (isolation #282) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:20 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

ftl wrote:would you like me to confirm Venmar as PGO or not?
do not do this.
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Post Post #3840 (isolation #283) » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:37 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

Unvote
Vote: BRO


think i'm just going to sheep venmar for the rest of the game
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Post Post #3844 (isolation #284) » Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:03 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

Unvote
Vote: malakittens
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Post Post #3846 (isolation #285) » Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:49 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

venmar, td, mac, ghostlin, ftl
andrius, mastin
muttley
trust fund
nacho
desperado, bro, aj, mala

something like that
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Post Post #3856 (isolation #286) » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:04 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

ftl wrote:professional cum inspectors.
would have been better if you called yourselves cum hunters.

get it up with me, ftl
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Post Post #3871 (isolation #287) » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:59 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

desp wrote:Mastin's Mac Progression
this doesn't really say much, except that he changed his mind.

you could probably find the same sort of thing for my read progression on a lot of players. pretty sure i've flip-flopped on a majority of players in this game at some point. there's probably very little "substance" to my read changes, except that i changed my mind for one reason or another, even if i didn't state why.
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Post Post #3875 (isolation #288) » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:14 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

desp wrote:You don't see an issue with this?
not really. i believe i did something similar d2 when i was still in the midst of sorting out my reads. at the start of d2 i was considering a lynch between {nick, venmar, mala}, 2 of which i had as town reads d1. after some reading, i changed my mind, even if i never explicitly stated why. *shrug*

i don't know why mastin changed his mind, but i don't have any real issue with it.

i suppose it
could
be because he's scum, but i so nothing that suggests this. you can always ask him about it.
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Post Post #3899 (isolation #289) » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:57 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

mala

how many scum do you think were on/off the nick wagon yesterday?

[10] nickthename (Nachomamma8, BROseidon, Aj The Epic, Trust Fund, notscience, BeautyAndTheBeast, Mutleyddmc, Mac, Desperado, Faster Than Light)
[4] Malakittens (Ghostlin, nickthename, mastin2, zMuffinMan)
[2] BROseidon (Malakittens, Venmar)
[1] Mac (TiphaineDeath)
[1] Andrius (Andrius)
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Post Post #3901 (isolation #290) » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:23 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

i agree. but all of the people off the wagon except you are among my strongest town reads.

so i'm trying to sort this out right now.
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Post Post #3902 (isolation #291) » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:31 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

you asked why i think ghostlin is town. i have no one specific reason. i've liked a majority of his posts, and they pretty much all have a town tone. if he's scum, then he's playing really well, atm, but i'm not going to start doubting my town read on him without a good reason to.

you seem to think ghostlin is "fucktunneling" and "misrepping" you, and even if that were true, this doesn't make me think he's scum.

assume ghostlin is town, who would be your pick for scum off the wagon?
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Post Post #3905 (isolation #292) » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:04 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

oh. looking at mastin's reads, yeah i'm 99% sure he picked up on something i picked up on yesterday and this makes him town.

if he swapped andrius and aj he'd have basically my current reads list with some of the ordered switched a bit.
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Post Post #3907 (isolation #293) » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:39 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

are you a 1-shot neighbouriser?
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Post Post #3926 (isolation #294) » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:04 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

#3913 is mostly in line with the conclusion i've come to, except i'm leaving AJ in the pool of possible scum. nacho-desperado-bro or nacho-desperado-AJ? not really important to figure out today.
mala wrote:@Muffin:

I think it's Ghostlin off the wagon. You can't ask me to answer something and make me eliminate a choice. I have slight townreads or townreads on most people off the wagon.
the problem is i am almost certain ghostlin is town. i'm asking you to answer it because there is almost no way i can see ghostlin being scum atm, and if by some miracle he is lynched and flips town, i want to know who you'd think is scum off the nick wagon.
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Post Post #3930 (isolation #295) » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:07 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

i'm curious as to why AJ isn't jumping for joy that mala is a viable lynch.

two posts today, nothing of substance in them, no vote on mala.
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Post Post #3932 (isolation #296) » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:44 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

you're not even voting
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Post Post #3938 (isolation #297) » Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:16 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

bro wrote:You would have to conclude that I've been hard-bussing the slot all game. Is this correct, and would you still push for me tomorrow if Mala flips scum?
it's hardly "hard-bussing the slot all game" when you took the first opportunity to jump on nick for weak reasoning and you were practically non-existent D1. but yes, i am considering the possibility you are bussing at the moment. and i'm not sure whether or not i'd be pushing for you tomorrow if she flips scum, it would depend on what happens between now and then.
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Post Post #3940 (isolation #298) » Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:38 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

what are your current reads, AJ?

i thought the only reason you were fine with lynching nick is because you wanted to lynch mala today.

why are you not voting anyone?
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Post Post #3943 (isolation #299) » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:23 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

TD wrote:I am liking ghostlin and muffin less and less.
OK. get back to us when you start suspecting actual scum. bonus points if you do it before the game ends.
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Post Post #3954 (isolation #300) » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:34 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

aj wrote:Also, can I ask what made YOU change your mind on Mala? You were deadset against mala's lynch.
you're incorrect. i was never "deadset" against mala's lynch; i was against a lynch going down in the same way the nick lynch went down (i.e. no real reasons, just a lot of wagoning - god, that was a shit wagon). i did think some of her posts looked townish so i didn't think she was scum, and the arguments for her being scum were pretty bad (i still stand by this, because the arguments for her being scum could equally be applied to a lot of players in this game and were rather weak).

i reconsidered when i looked at the game from a different angle. i do not think the entire scum team was on the nick lynch, and all of the people who were off the nick wagon are among my strongest town reads except for mala. i can justify why everyone off the nick wagon (except mala) is town, but i'm not going to do it today, so don't bother asking.

in the (unlikely?) event mala flips town, it'll mean my thinking is wrong somewhere and i really need to reassess the game. in the event that mala flips scum, the game is basically over and scum are fucked.
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Post Post #3978 (isolation #301) » Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:01 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

don't do it!
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Post Post #3981 (isolation #302) » Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:23 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

don't do it!!!
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Post Post #3984 (isolation #303) » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:32 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

ftl wrote:Mac -> leaning town
gives off the PR vibe
holy shit. i think you could be right.
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Post Post #3987 (isolation #304) » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:59 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

omfg i just noticed this
In post 3983, borkjerfkin wrote:
Mutleyddmc is being replaced.
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Post Post #3991 (isolation #305) » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:11 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

In post 3988, Faster Than Light wrote:damn it

that sucks
when i read that, i was thinking more along the lines of

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Post Post #3993 (isolation #306) » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:19 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

wtf? you know mac claimed, you commented on it

and i have nothing against mutley, other than him being totally useless in every way this game.
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Post Post #4013 (isolation #307) » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:03 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

if someone wants a lynch other than mala, then present fucking reasons to vote someone other than mala.

there shouldn't be so many people not voting
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Post Post #4021 (isolation #308) » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:46 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

while sos's reads may have had something to do with why they were killed, i think it was more to do with them being a universal town read with strong influence on this player list.

i don't think it's wise to base reads on, "sos was killed; they must have been on to scum."
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Post Post #4023 (isolation #309) » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:02 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

ok. then continue doing what you're doing and tell me when you decide on who you want to vote today.

btw what is the difference between "null" and "to sort"? presumably you still need to sort the nulls, no?
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Post Post #4028 (isolation #310) » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:14 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

aj wrote:are you still holding that we just couldn't make a case worth lynching her on?
yes. i don't like cases that can be applied to a large portion of the player list. it's what got nick lynched yesterday. the cases on nick and mala were virtually identical.
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Post Post #4080 (isolation #311) » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:13 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

aj wrote:I'm a one shot bullet proof townie, who actively tried to get shot night 1 to remove that benefit.
there are so many things wrong with this statement, even if it were true, and i do not believe it is true, because someone who wants to get shot N1 generally takes a more active, leading role.
aj wrote:I can, however, show a trail of crumbs I left to try to get this removed and how it has affected my logical progression through the game.
do it.
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Post Post #4081 (isolation #312) » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:15 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

i mean honestly, show of hands, how many people would have considered AJ being the N1 scum kill as likely in this game?

*tumbleweed*
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Post Post #4090 (isolation #313) » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:08 pm

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aj wrote:Muffin, if you noticed, I took a very active role day 1 and was present the majority of the time around Mala and Rach.
no, not really. i don't remember you doing much with RM or the RM wagon, and i barely remember anything you were saying about mala D1, so while you may have had suspicions of mala D1, you certainly weren't taking an active role in pushing that.

i also have issues with these "crumbs"

the reasoning for your obscure 'cop crumbs' makes little sense. firstly, no cop claims because they see someone crumbing cop. secondly, if your crumbs were so obscure that a real cop wouldn't pick up on them, then they're essentially fucking useless because how would scum pick up on them, especially if a real cop crumbed in a more obvious way.............................................

i don't see how you came to the conclusion that nick was a traitor in the first place. him not making sense as scum with some of your other reads doesn't automatically suggest "oh, he's a traitor!" you could have been wrong about nick (hint: you were), you could have been wrong in your scum reads, etc etc

also, i can't think of any town reason you'd 'crumb' that you thought nick was a traitor. traitor is scum like any other scum, so why would town-AJ need to crumb this? it only benefits scum, and i can think of reasons you'd do this as scum (say, letting your partners know that you think nick is the traitor)... but i can't think of any reason you'd do it as town.

also, i can't think of a town reason for why you'd automatically assume a traitor knows who their scum partners are. they don't always know.

not to mention, you thinking nick was a traitor doesn't even make any sense with the way you were talking about nick yesterday.

for example, you were constantly talking about how you trusted the people on the nick wagon more than those on the mala wagon. if you genuinely thought nick was a traitor that scum weren't aware of and mala was actual scum, then surely you should have thought that the nick wagon was more likely to be scum-infested than the mala wagon.....................................

then there's also the following quote, which makes no sense if you genuinely believe nick is a traitor that scum aren't aware of:
In post 3403, Aj The Epic wrote:Imagine if Nacho and Nick are opposite alignments: The scum would know which is town
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Post Post #4091 (isolation #314) » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:17 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

@nacho

you're town or leaning town on everyone but TD and mala?

just going to take a stab in the dark here... you could be wrong about some of those reads.
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Post Post #4094 (isolation #315) » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:32 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

i'm not sure. it could have something to do with a number of players scum reading him atm, to the point that if he didn't come up with a believable claim he'd have been lynched (if not today, then in the near future). it could be because he had it pre-planned anyway. it could even be made up reasoning that he just thought of (which would explain the inconsistencies i just mentioned).

it's also possible he's telling the truth, and if i weren't considering this as a possibility, then i'd probably be voting him.
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Post Post #4095 (isolation #316) » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:34 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

he could also be scum who legitimately thought nick was a traitor. in which case, the only "fake" reasoning in his post is the cop crumb stuff.
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Post Post #4106 (isolation #317) » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:20 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

nah, as much as i'm considering the possibility AJ is scum, the language choice there isn't a slip.
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Post Post #4107 (isolation #318) » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:30 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

well, it might have been a slip, but i can see situations where it's not. e.g. "i think we have a traitor in the game... i think X is our traitor" <- it's odd language structure, but it's not necessarily a scum slip
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Post Post #4111 (isolation #319) » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:16 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

Whenever I read wayne's posts, I find myself asking, "is he confused, or am I?"
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Post Post #4151 (isolation #320) » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:56 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

you know the first thing i do when i replace into a game and get asked to claim is to check my predecessor's posts and see what they claimed, right?

regardless of my actual role.
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Post Post #4160 (isolation #321) » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:18 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

@AJ

Spoiler:
aj wrote:First: Yes, cops might counterclaim.
yeah, this is a load of bullshit. find me one game where a cop has claimed because they think they spotted someone crumbing cop.
aj wrote:I’ve learned scum are pretty good at picking up crumbs as I got blasted by hiraki in another game when I accidentally dropped a crumb day 1.
aj wrote:it is actually improper to crumb cop unless you’re in danger of getting lynched d1, so I wasn’t worried about someone crumbing it over me
these two quotes are contradictory. you know that people can crumb their role because you've done it before. derp.
aj wrote:To me, he was an obvious candidate for a traitor in that situation since I figured a core of Rach/mala/nacho/venmar day 1 and Nick was a scum read from the beginning of D1. Having nothing in the way of connections, I figured he’d be a good candidate for traitor.
i don't believe this. the logical conclusion when you can't see 'connections' isn't to assume someone is a traitor...
aj wrote:I agree, crumbing nick as a traitor is stupid and nowhere did I do that.
you
quoted yourself suggesting you thought nick was a traitor
. you even provided those quotes as 'evidence' that you thought nick was a traitor. you fucking said, "
This was me trying to see if Nick was our traitor
." If that isn't you crumbing that you thought Nick was a traitor, then what was it?
aj wrote:But as scum, the easier way for me would’ve been just wait until the QT was up and explain that. Nick wasn't getting lynched that day, and wouldn’t the correct move for me as scum to lynch off a potential traitor I had scum read and keep the core team together? Wouldn’t a nick lynch benefit me in every way more than a Rach lynch?
i'm not going to get into the wifom game, but i can think of a number of possible explanations.
aj wrote:They generally know at least one in MS.net games.
even if they
generally
know, that doesn't mean they
always
know, and there's no reason to assume they do know.
aj wrote:I had many people on the Nick wagon as town, as I’ve explained. How do we know scum just didn’t plan on bussing mala day 2?
yeah, this is also a load of bullshit. it's why i asked you to talk about who your scum reads on the mala wagon were, such that you felt better about the nick wagon. also, you should have known that if nick was actually a traitor the scum team was unaware of, and mala was part of the main team, the likelihood that the nick wagon was scum-infested was far fucking higher.


none of what you say really matches with what i would expect from you thinking logically as town. i'm not particularly interested in dealing with you til after a mala flip, though.
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Post Post #4162 (isolation #322) » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:53 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

[6] Malakittens (BROseidon, zMuffinMan, mastin2, Ghostlin, Aj The Epic, TiphaineDeath)
[2] Aj The Epic (waynegg, Mac)
[1] BROseidon (dopog)
[1] Faster Than Light (Desperado)

[6] Not Voting (Nachomamma8, Malakittens, notscience, Trust Fund, Andrius, Faster Than Light)

With 16 alive, it is 9 to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2013-09-25 10:00:00)

i just want a mala flip so we can move on. there shouldn't be so many people not voting (including andrius failing to properly vote trust fund). if you don't want a mala flip, push a better lynch.
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Post Post #4165 (isolation #323) » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:38 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

why did you choose those two?
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Post Post #4166 (isolation #324) » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:40 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

(coz, you know, if i were a town JK, i'd be on the CLAIMED INNOCENT CHILD 24/7 if i wasn't trying to roleblock my scum reads, and mac and AJ don't match up with your supposed scum reads)
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Post Post #4167 (isolation #325) » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:43 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

also, i don't see why you'd ask to be lynched if you're a fucking PR
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Post Post #4168 (isolation #326) » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:46 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

if your aim was to JK town reads to protect them from NK, why specifically AJ and mac? why not AJ two nights in a row? why not, say, mastin, who you seem to really strongly think is town and is a more likely NK than someone like mac?

but anyway, yeah, answers plx
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Post Post #4172 (isolation #327) » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:07 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

mala wrote:Plus he pushed Rach hard.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, good one.






oh wait, was this serious?
AJ wrote:I assumed traitor because I knew there was a traitor and I thought he was scummy.
UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
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Post Post #4173 (isolation #328) » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:08 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

that was a kneejerk reaction to the above two posts. i'm tired so i'll probably look over them properly when i wake up
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Post Post #4175 (isolation #329) » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:20 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

i don't believe it because your actions don't really match up with your reads. why not JK mastin? or andrius (after d1)? aj didn't even strongly push the RM wagon (he didn't really push it
AT ALL
but that's another matter), especially in comparison to
anyone who actually did push the wagon
. plus there were far more town-looking players than AJ D1, and AJ wasn't even among the people who you were supposedly reading as strongly town D1. in fact, you initially started off with a scum read on him and never mentioned a town read on him - and it's especially odd considering you thought he was tunneling you D1 - why would scum kill someone tunneling mala-town?

the mac reasoning i don't really see. why not protect a stronger player among your town reads? like, no offense to mac, but really... he was very low on the list of people i thought might be killed N2.

it's not that i don't agree with how you used your role; it's that your explanations are both bad and don't match up with the things you've said so far.
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Post Post #4176 (isolation #330) » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:24 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

i'm also trying to figure out whether aj is scum or really, really, really naive town who just doesn't know any better. the massive assumptions he's been making about how a traitor role would work in this game (without even assuming that it might not even exist) and the reasoning is making my head spin.

i need to sleep.
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Post Post #4179 (isolation #331) » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:40 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

that's not how a jk works, since it would resolve at the end of the night and prevent actions at the point of action resolution.
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Post Post #4180 (isolation #332) » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:44 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

In post 2648, Malakittens wrote:Bro and I'm still not sold on Aj-town.
btw, this from d2, is not what you say about someone who you felt really strongly was town d1. ESPECIALLY given how strongly town you seemed to think bnb and mastin and others were, and any of them were far more likely kills.
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Post Post #4182 (isolation #333) » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:03 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

OH WAIT.

I just remembered something.

I am almost certain mala is lying about the JKs.

mastin should know why.
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Post Post #4183 (isolation #334) » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:05 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

wait nm scratch that, i'm thinking something completely wrong here. going to sleep before i say anything else that's really stupid
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Post Post #4222 (isolation #335) » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:32 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

Yeah OK

This is mala's read progression on AJ between D1 and D2. I think Mala forgot that she was not reading AJ as town at the start of D2 and forgot when she started lying about reading AJ as town. She claims the JK on AJ was because he looked town and strong scum hunting and etc etc, but mala was frustrated that AJ was tunneling her for most of D1 so this doesn't make any sense. And AJ had
nothing
to do with the RM lynch, except being a vote on it - there was no strong push from him. So mala's reasons are bullshit even apart from the read progression not making sense.

D1
In post 767, Malakittens wrote:I'm not seeing AJ town though.
In post 774, Malakittens wrote:I have seen town-AJ once and I'm not really seeing it
In post 933, Malakittens wrote:The newbie game play and this play here currently is not even remotely the same. I don't see how you can say it is. I also do not like you pushing that outlet because it reminds me of scum-UN doing the same thing to me at LyLo.
then no other mentions of your read on AJ D1 (just requests for him to stop tunneling you)

D2
In post 2648, Malakittens wrote:I'm still not sold on Aj-town.
In post 3308, Malakittens wrote:Although some of the people on my wagon currently I feel are town. So there's a chance this may be a town driven wagon (AJ, Mastin)
She changed her read on AJ somewhere on D2, not on N1. At the start of D2 she wasn't reading AJ as town. I think mala forgot this.

So yeah, even if we ignore the fact that mala had soooooooo many better targets than AJ and Mac to choose from, the reasons she's given for the JK on AJ are inconsistent with her own read on AJ and aren't even true.
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Post Post #4223 (isolation #336) » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:46 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

In post 4188, Andrius wrote:
In post 4167, zMuffinMan wrote:also, i don't see why you'd ask to be lynched if you're a fucking PR
This is something.
Yes, this is something she still hasn't explained.
In post 4193, Andrius wrote:so why would scum fakeblock targets that will make us question WHY if they could have chosen to block anyone?
A couple possibilities here:

- She could be a scum JK who actually did target AJ and Mac (which would destroy my theory that AJ is scum but whatever). She could have been aiming to RB potential PRs (which would also make Trust Fund likely town).
- She could just be lying and thinking that her targets were consistent with her reads, because if she claimed VT she would probably have been lynched. The targets she chose were obscure enough that they were unlikely to be watched, so basically unverifiable.
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Post Post #4226 (isolation #337) » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:57 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

mac wrote:this may just be a well prepared fake claim however.
or
Godly One wrote:- She could be a scum JK who actually did target AJ and Mac (which would destroy my theory that AJ is scum but whatever). She could have been aiming to RB potential PRs (which would also make Trust Fund likely town).
plus, really, how often does a neighbouriser work on the same night they target somebody? is that common now or something?
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Post Post #4227 (isolation #338) » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:01 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

(also, mala didn't ask "as soon" as you claimed, she posted a couple times then asked after that...)

(also, this could have just been mala wanting to make sure any fake-claim she made wouldn't be completely screwed by having to go 1-on-1 with you)
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Post Post #4246 (isolation #339) » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:56 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

In post 4239, Mac wrote:notscience is gonna be alive to lylo isnt he
this is why we can't let this game make it anywhere near lylo
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Post Post #4252 (isolation #340) » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:18 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

again, you're late to the party, MS.

mac already hammered
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Post Post #4290 (isolation #341) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:28 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

um. i'm pretty sure i know who mastin was a mason with and i don't think it was anyone in {TD, mac, venmar}. the reason he was calling them town is because he picked up on the same obvious crumbs from venmar i picked up on.
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Post Post #4297 (isolation #342) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:35 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

@andy,

why does it matter? i could be wrong, why trust that i know what i'm talking about?

anyway, remaining scum is in:

nacho, bro, AJ, desperado
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Post Post #4304 (isolation #343) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:49 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

i'm fine with either desp or nacho today, i think.

Vote: nacho
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Post Post #4310 (isolation #344) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:41 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

i was thinking about that as an option, too, but i don't think it's really necessary today
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Post Post #4320 (isolation #345) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:09 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

nacho wrote:TOWN:
notscience
waynegg
Faster Than Light
Ghostlin
Mac
mastin2

Muffin

Lean town:
Andrius
Trust Fund
AJ
Venmar?
BROseidon

LEFTOVERS:
Malakittens

TiphaineDeath
what are your current reads, nacho?
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Post Post #4322 (isolation #346) » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:22 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

so....
TOWN:
notscience
waynegg
Faster Than Light
Ghostlin
Mac
mastin2
Muffin
Antihero
TD

Lean town:
Andrius
Trust Fund
AJ
BROseidon
because you're "too hammered" atm, i'm just going to assume your "leaning town" list is now your scum list. is that right?

also, where is desperado in this list? (just realised he wasn't on your most recent reads list)
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Post Post #4325 (isolation #347) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:43 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

AJ wrote:Hey muffin, while it isn't indicative of much: Remember when I said scum were really good at picking up breadcrumbs, and now with Mala as a scum role blocker, having role blocked me night 1? Yeah, I'm pretty certain they picked up on the claim.
yes, if scum was telling the truth (
and i have no reason to believe that scum wouldn't be 100% truthful in any claims they make
) then they may have picked up on your crumbs.
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Post Post #4328 (isolation #348) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:26 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

are you still reassessing your reads or something, bro?
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Post Post #4334 (isolation #349) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:58 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

i think you're spending too much time getting caught up in the role name. it's possible that bork didn't realise that there was already an "inquisitor" role. since there's no third parties in this game, i don't really see why you're making a big deal out of this.

i'm inclined to believe the claim because venmar dropped like 69 crumbs about it D1, and further crumbed his investigations.
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Post Post #4337 (isolation #350) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:40 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

that is derpy on so many levels. so many more levels than i care to talk about.

just to be clear, goons would show up as vanilla to you, right?
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Post Post #4338 (isolation #351) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:46 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

(1) you did not need to claim
(2) asking nacho to claim because if he claimed anything but VT you'd know he was lying is stupid
(3) investigating a CLAIMED NON-VANILLA is stupid
(4) i agree there's too many claimed PRs (because people are claiming PRs like it's the cool thing to do) but i don't think that necessarily means there's scum in the claimed PRs. if there is, it's not mac.
(5) guessing why scum would kill certain players is fucking dumb. especially since
some of the claimed or soft-claimed PRs must be town and they're intentionally ignoring them
HINT: YOU ARE ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO SOFT-CLAIMED EARLY

(6) i seriously doubt the whole scum team has PRs, and if they actually do, that just means it's more likely town has adequate power to fight this (WHICH BLOWS A FUCKING HOLE IN YOUR THEORY THAT THERE ARE TOO MANY CLAIMED PRS)
(7) mac vote reasoning is horrible. just because scum
can be
neighbourisers, doesn't mean mac is a scum neighbouriser.

i'm probably missing some other places that was entirely derpy but those are just the obvious places
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Post Post #4339 (isolation #352) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:54 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

i think the most hilarious thing about it is that you were asked to claim by the person you apparently think is scum and you were like, "welp, gotta do it"
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Post Post #4349 (isolation #353) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:18 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

ftl wrote:Muffin, give me a reason for why scum would ignore the claimed PRs, especially all the way until D4.
um, ok

first of all, the claimed PRs on D1 were:

venmar-PGO and andrius softclaiming some sort of vengeful role. neither of these are likely targets for a nightkill (maybe andrius, but you could argue that perhaps he was likely to be protected after d1). there's also the IC but LOL IT'S NOTSCIENCE and he has been helping scum more than town so far this game. i said d1 that scum were going to keep him alive til lylo because it only benefits them.

the claimed PRs on D2 were:

TF claiming 1-shot vanillarising role, mutley claiming 1-shot vig. neither of these are likely targets for a nightkill. you also soft-claimed something but scum could have thought you'd be protected or something.

it's possible that scum
were
trying to hit a PR N3 (because mastin was claiming a fuckton of players were confirmed, which suggested he had some sort of role information to verify people).

so i don't really see your point.

maybe the SoS and BnB kills were trying to target a PR and they guessed wrong. maybe they had other reasons for wanting to kill SoS and BnB that had nothing to do with PRs.
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Post Post #4350 (isolation #354) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:24 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

ftl wrote:What do you think about how the kills and claims have been going?
also i think the kills were more likely to be for reasons other than targeting PRs. for the most part. mastin might have been aiming at a PR.

SoS was pretty much universally being read as town. and given mala was in their scum reads, if BRO is also scum, that could be a reason they were killed. BnB was influential. i dunno, i personally would have let them live if i were scum, because majiffy seems more like a hindrance to town than a help, but whatever.

mastin kill could have been partially a shot at a potential PR and partially because he'd narrowed down the scum team a lot. i dunno.

playing the NK wifom game seems kinda fucking dumb.

about as dumb as playing the "guess which PR is lying" game
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Post Post #4352 (isolation #355) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:29 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

i'll tell you what...

if we start hitting more than one town player in {nacho, desp, AJ, BRO} then i'll start working with you and trying to figure out who among the rest of the players we should be wary of.

as of right now, i don't have a reason to suspect the players outside this pool.

trying to guess why scum killed who they killed seems fruitless right now.
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Post Post #4355 (isolation #356) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:49 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

@ftl,

there's no reason to think there's a traitor in this game. that was something aj brought up because he apparently thinks that a 1-shot town BP means there's a traitor in the game. which, as many players have already pointed out, is faulty logic.

venmar(antihero) is not a traitor. that i am certain of. the only possible way that could make sense is if went through venmar's ISO and paid special attention to venmar's crumbs, and figured out a lot of shit that would be pretty fucking amazing to figure out after replacing in over night as a traitor. he could be factional scum and they planned it, but i doubt this. his play looked town, and his crumbing and the PGO claim were consistent with cop play.

and yeah, i think nacho could be a goon (otherwise, i wouldn't still be voting him and i wouldn't have suggested that i seriously doubt all the scum have PRs). i don't think anything of him refusing to claim. that's fairly a fucking standard thing to do, regardless of alignment.

@ns,

you're doing vca wrong.
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Post Post #4357 (isolation #357) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:52 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

fuck it, i didn't want to put effort into today, but i might do my own VCA later.

you should be looking at other major votecounts, not just the lynch votecounts, and you're missing a lot of context.
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Post Post #4361 (isolation #358) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:03 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

Spoiler:
Votecount 1.2

[8] TiphaineDeath (Venmar, zMuffinMan, nickthename, BeautyAndTheBeast, Mac, Ghostlin, Faster Than Light, Trust Fund)
[2] notscience (Aj The Epic, notscience)
[1] BROseidon (Sound of Silence)
[1] Mac (TiphaineDeath)
[1] Nachomamma8 (Nachopappa)

[8] Not Voting (Andrius, BROseidon, Desperado, mastin2, Nachomamma8, nhammen, RachMarie, Skullduggery)

Votecount 1.6

[5] Faster Than Light (thezmon221, Malakittens, Skullduggery, TiphaineDeath, nickthename)
[4] RachMarie (zMuffinMan, Andrius, Desperado, Faster Than Light)
[3] mastin2 (Venmar, Trust Fund, BROseidon)
[3] nickthename (Aj The Epic, mastin2, notscience)
[2] Malakittens (Nachomamma8, Ghostlin)
[1] BROseidon (Sound of Silence)
[1] Nachomamma8 (BeautyAndTheBeast)

[2] Not Voting (RachMarie, Mac)

Votecount 1.8

[6] mastin2 (Venmar, Trust Fund, BROseidon, nickthename, TiphaineDeath, Skullduggery)
[5] RachMarie (zMuffinMan, Andrius, Desperado, Faster Than Light, Nachomamma8)
[3] nickthename (mastin2, notscience, thezmon221)
[2] Andrius (BeautyAndTheBeast, Sound of Silence)
[2] Malakittens (Ghostlin, Aj The Epic)
[1] Faster Than Light (Skullduggery)

[2] Not Voting (RachMarie, Mac)

Votecount 1.11

[7] Andrius (BeautyAndTheBeast, Sound of Silence, notscience, Trust Fund, Malakittens, RachMarie, Mac)
[7] RachMarie (zMuffinMan, Andrius, Desperado, Faster Than Light, thezmon221, TiphaineDeath, Aj The Epic)
[4] mastin2 (Venmar, BROseidon, nickthename, Skullduggery)
[2] Skullduggery (Ghostlin, Nachomamma8)
[1] nickthename (mastin2)

Votecount 1.19

[7] RachMarie (zMuffinMan, Andrius, Desperado, Aj The Epic, Nachomamma8, TiphaineDeath, Ghostlin)
[5] nickthename (mastin2, notscience, BeautyAndTheBeast, Faster Than Light, Mutleyddmc)
[3] Andrius (Trust Fund, Malakittens, RachMarie)
[2] mastin2 (BROseidon, nickthename)
[1] BROseidon (Sound of Silence)
[1] Mutleyddmc (Saki)
[1] TiphaineDeath (Venmar)

[1] Not Voting (Mac)

Votecount 1.20

[7] RachMarie (zMuffinMan, Andrius, Desperado, Aj The Epic, Nachomamma8, TiphaineDeath, Ghostlin)
[6] Andrius (Trust Fund, Malakittens, RachMarie, Faster Than Light, notscience, BeautyAndTheBeast)
[2] mastin2 (BROseidon, nickthename)
[2] nickthename (mastin2, Mutleyddmc)
[1] BROseidon (Sound of Silence)
[1] Sound of Silence (Saki)
[1] TiphaineDeath (Venmar)

[1] Not Voting (Mac)

Votecount 1.24 (Final)

[11] RachMarie (zMuffinMan, Desperado, Nachomamma8, Ghostlin, BeautyAndTheBeast, Aj The Epic, Sound of Silence, Andrius, Trust Fund, Saki, BROseidon)
[4] Andrius (Malakittens, RachMarie, Faster Than Light, TiphaineDeath)
[3] nickthename (mastin2, Mutleyddmc, notscience)
[1] BROseidon (Mac)
[1] mastin2 (nickthename)
[1] TiphaineDeath (Venmar)

Votecount 2.2

[6] nickthename (Faster Than Light, Nachomamma8, Andrius, BROseidon, Aj The Epic, Trust Fund)
[3] Malakittens (Mac, mastin2, Ghostlin)
[2] BROseidon (zMuffinMan, Malakittens)
[2] Nachomamma8 (Venmar, BeautyAndTheBeast)
[1] BeautyAndTheBeast (TiphaineDeath)

[4] Not Voting (Desperado, notscience, Mutleyddmc, nickthename)

Votecount 2.3

[8] nickthename (Faster Than Light, Nachomamma8, Andrius, BROseidon, Aj The Epic, Trust Fund, BeautyAndTheBeast, notscience)
[3] Malakittens (Mac, mastin2, Ghostlin)
[2] BROseidon (zMuffinMan, Malakittens)
[1] BeautyAndTheBeast (TiphaineDeath)
[1] Nachomamma8 (Venmar)

[3] Not Voting (Desperado, Mutleyddmc, nickthename)

Votecount 2.5

[9] nickthename (Nachomamma8, BROseidon, Aj The Epic, Trust Fund, notscience, BeautyAndTheBeast, Mutleyddmc, Mac, Desperado)
[4] Malakittens (Ghostlin, nickthename, mastin2, Faster Than Light)
[2] BROseidon (zMuffinMan, Malakittens)
[2] Mac (Venmar, TiphaineDeath)

[1] Not Voting (Andrius)

Votecount 2.8

[9] nickthename (Nachomamma8, BROseidon, Aj The Epic, Trust Fund, notscience, BeautyAndTheBeast, Mutleyddmc, Mac, Desperado)
[5] Malakittens (Ghostlin, nickthename, mastin2, Faster Than Light, zMuffinMan)
[2] BROseidon (Malakittens, Venmar)
[1] Mac (TiphaineDeath)
[1] Andrius (Andrius)

Votecount 2.9 (Final)

[10] nickthename (Nachomamma8, BROseidon, Aj The Epic, Trust Fund, notscience, BeautyAndTheBeast, Mutleyddmc, Mac, Desperado, Faster Than Light)
[4] Malakittens (Ghostlin, nickthename, mastin2, zMuffinMan)
[2] BROseidon (Malakittens, Venmar)
[1] Mac (TiphaineDeath)
[1] Andrius (Andrius)

Votecount 3.7 (Final)

[9] Malakittens (BROseidon, zMuffinMan, mastin2, Ghostlin, Aj The Epic, TiphaineDeath, Nachomamma8, Desperado, Mac)
[1] Aj The Epic (waynegg)
[1] BROseidon (dopog)

[5] Not Voting (Malakittens, notscience, Trust Fund, Andrius, Faster Than Light)

i need to colour shit in and talk about this but a couple things you're ignoring, ns:

- there were two wagons main wagons that popped up to counter the RM wagon (andrius and nick). we know andrius had two confscum on it and a lot of conftown on it. we also know that nick had a lot of conftown on it and no confscum on it. so where were the scum here? my guess for a while has been that scum were bussing RM (i tried to get people to talk about this D2, and D3, but nobody wanted to)
- where were the scum on/off the nick wagon D2? it stalled for a long time, suggesting there were already a lot of scum on it, and we've already had one scum flip in the players off the wagon. at the very most there's 1 more off the nick wagon, but i'd be willing to bet all of the remaining scum were on it.

there are some other things i want to look at, too (like the mastin and TD wagons D1, although my current theory is that there may not have been any scum on the TD wagon... food for thought, though)
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Post Post #4362 (isolation #359) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:06 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

i don't see why there can't be two "cops" in the game, given how limited both roles actually are.
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Post Post #4365 (isolation #360) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:36 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

@ftl,

your reasoning for investigating TF doesn't really make a lot of sense, given the fact you think scum is full of PRs. either TF is town and told the truth about his PR, or TF is scum (which would mean you think he has a PR?)

seems like a waste when you could have used it on someone like desperado.

also, you should really read the game. antihero claimed that he no longer has the ability to investigate. read the start of this day phase properly.
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Post Post #4368 (isolation #361) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:48 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

it should be used like a lie detector, but i would be VCing unclaimed players. with a massclaim looming, i'd be on the looking to catch scum PRs fake-claiming VT or possibly goons fake-claiming PRs. you're more likely to catch a fake-claim in an unclaimed player than in someone who has already claimed (especially if they claimed unnecessarily, like all of the claims so far have). but this is theory talk, and not really important.

also, if you want, i can go back over venmar's posts and point out all of the places he crumbed his role. i have most of them already because i pmed bork about it N2 when i ranted to him about my thoughts on the game. i am very sure that he was either what he claims to be, or he's factional scum (i.e. not a traitor) who planned it with his partners. and i'm leaning towards the former based on his play making sense as town and also based on how fucking elaborate it would have to be for venmar to have co-ordinated that as factional scum.
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Post Post #4371 (isolation #362) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:31 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

nacho wrote:There's also not an actual reason to lynch me.
actually, apart from PoE from town reads, there's some stuff i don't like about your play. for example, the pushes from you have felt rather weak and the few times i talked to you about the nick wagon, it seemed like you knew it was shit but you didn't care.

maybe after sleep i'll pull up the quotes that specifically made me think this.
nacho wrote:I'm not sure that a supersaint who only kills town would be called a supersaint, considering every other role with modifications has a new name.
when did you stop thinking andy was obvtown and why?

also, you believe he's been faking the softclaiming stuff he's done since..... basically the end of D1 all through to today?
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Post Post #4373 (isolation #363) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:37 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

oh, and in addition to the times i talked to you about nick, i remember there was also stuff about your read on venmar, and there was that spiel to bnb about how he'd had enough time to push the nick wagon and now you were gonna get serious, etc etc
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Post Post #4380 (isolation #364) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:12 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

@ftl,

Spoiler:
In post 1536, Venmar wrote:do not worry, i got this shit on lockdown during the night, we'll catch scum
In post 1641, Venmar wrote:Besides, even if I was faking it, it's no alignment indicative, think of it as me pulling a Mattp.
In post 1642, Venmar wrote:You help me lynch one of my scumreads, and i'll take a nice looooooooooooooong look at Skull and interactions around his slot during the night.
In post 1805, Venmar wrote:Mastin is a slot I will need to keep thinking about, maybe a night overread can help when I have the motivation to do so.

In post 2752, Venmar wrote:ok well i took a look into TD over the night and I guess i'm just going to drop my scumread on him all together...
In post 3063, Venmar wrote:TD is conftown
these are the most obvious d1 and d2 crumbs i found. there may be more but i cbf digging. i picked all of these up d2 and i'm fairly sure mastin also picked these up because of this cute line
In post 3021, mastin2 wrote:I'd lynch a cop innocent before I'd lynch Venmar.
d3 he did the same thing with his mac read as he did d2 with TD
In post 3759, Venmar wrote:but i had nice and loooooooooooooooooooooooong look at mac and i have decided the dude is town
In post 3897, Venmar wrote:just going drop this here: TD and Mac are confirmed town atm


also, something to think about if you're still doubting that there could be two (limited) investigative roles in the game is that RM's role could have easily had the ability to fuck with either of these (it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume she could probably assign some sort of godfather/ascetic passive to a scum buddy).
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Post Post #4384 (isolation #365) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:30 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

i'm not particularly convinced bro is scum atm, just that he's among the players i'm not reading as town and potentially scum. i think one of him and AJ is scum, i don't think they're scum together (especially if nacho is scum).
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Post Post #4395 (isolation #366) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:32 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

and a tracker-neighbouriser, but i don't actually think it's all that weird, depending on the number of scum (not ruling out the possibility of 6 scum) / strength of their PRs. given the flipped scum roles, it's not _that_ unlikely they could all be town. roleblocker-redirector + passive-inventor seems like pretty good counter-balance, not to mention other possible scum PRs (bulletproof if AJ is scum, for example)
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Post Post #4404 (isolation #367) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:41 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

@andy,

do you think there's a town bulletproof to counteract a twoshot scum vig, or do you think aj was rolecopped, or do you they're scum together?

also don't really see how redirector+rolebocker and passive-inventor (assuming ascetic/godfather is an option for that role) wouldn't be at least a partial counter.
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Post Post #4407 (isolation #368) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:47 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

andy wrote:why would scum have a BP with no vig
right.

since you said you suspect mutley's shot, i assumed you'd have some theory about what this means for AJ.

whatever, i'm tired. gonna sleep, then properly do that vca and pull up nacho quotes after sleep
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Post Post #4417 (isolation #369) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:10 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

waynegg wrote:And scum didn't NK the slot because... I mean, I know its in scum's best interest to leave town investigative roles in the game and all, so if you have an explanation that would be nice to share...
because he claimed PGO and scum ignored the obvcrumbs. see AJ's response to the revelation today, for example.
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Post Post #4423 (isolation #370) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:38 am

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it's elaborate because (1) why PGO claim at all? if the aim was to drop cop crumbs, why was a PGO claim necessary? (2) there could have actually been a real cop, and considering how blatant those crumbs are, he'd need to explain it (3) why venmar instead of a stronger scum player? (4) it was risky because PGOs are potential policy lynches like millers (though policy lynching isn't all that common anymore) (5) he would have had to tell his scum buddies about it, and have them tell antihero about it, etc etc

you're actually a moron if you think this is more likely to come from scum than town.
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Post Post #4427 (isolation #371) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:51 am

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waynegg wrote:2. Great, then scum would know real cop D1 from cc.
this is so fucking moronic it's not even funny. scum never want a 1 for 1 trade, especially early game, and especially not when there could be protective roles. holy shit.

the rest of your responses aren't much better. your reasoning is that you can think of an absurd situation in which he would do it as scum, so therefore he could be scum. if you're not policy lynching PGO claims sooner or later, then you're not playing correctly, and if the fucking idea was to use PGO as a fucking cover against town PRs then him claiming today makes no sense.

i shouldn't have to explain the fucking obvious. and now i'm going to sleep.
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Post Post #4456 (isolation #372) » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:45 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

i cbf doing a full-on case right now because i'm lazy and lethargic but some basic reasons i think nacho is scum:

- poe. my town list is pretty solid. don't give a shit about people who are paranoid. i'm not going to question my reads here without good reason unless people in {nacho, desp, aj, bro} start flipping town.
- didn't like the way he sat on the nick vote and didn't really look like he wanted to move elsewhere felt like he knew it was a bad lynch but didn't care. one of the few interactions with nacho i had d2 was about nick (, 2970, 2972) and at the time i thought it was weird but didn't really think too much about it. later () he talks about how majiffy has had enough time and he was going to put effort into the game, then he does a pbpa of aj and bro and... that's it. didn't really feel like he was trying to find scum.
- read progression on mala. cbf pulling it all up but just ctrl+f mala in his iso. goes from initially scum (for awkward reasons) to town town town for the rest of d1 to scum for unexplained reasons (and no real desire to pursue a mala lynch) to leaning town because molly townread mala (i think?) to finally mala being a "leftover" outside of nacho's town/leaning town reads.
- general coasting and active lurking since the latter half of d2.

there's also mastin's points about the way nacho was interacting with him and nacho's reads on certain players (especially venmar and TD). i don't put all that much stock into this as an argument, but it's still worth nothing.

if i get around to properly doing VCA, i'll talk a little about why i think that also points to nacho being likely scum (or at least, among the players that are likely scum from VCA). if i can be bothered, i might get to this later tonight. my brief thoughts on this are scattered throughout my iso, but most recently in
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Post Post #4461 (isolation #373) » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:05 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

actually, AJ should fullclaim, full rolename, character and how he knows there's a traitor
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Post Post #4476 (isolation #374) » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:28 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

ftl wrote:and i am not contributing to the lynch on nacho
well seeing as you haven't participated in any of the scum lynches, i feel rather good about my nacho vote now.

in seriousness though, i don't think many of the people voting nacho think AJ is town. just that nacho is a better lynch.
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Post Post #4477 (isolation #375) » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:30 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

btw, do you have any scum reads on the nacho wagon?

coz i mean... getting rid of nacho-town seems like something scum should be jumping all over and i don't see that happening here.
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Post Post #4482 (isolation #376) » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:01 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

ftl wrote:the last time that happened we got a nick lynch...
please, the nick wagon was never town-driven. it had town players on it (like any wagon), but it was far from town-driven.
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Post Post #4483 (isolation #377) » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:02 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

i mean, really, one of my main fucking objections to the nick wagon was the people on it and the reasons they were giving.
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Post Post #4501 (isolation #378) » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:32 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

in addition to , my basic reasons are in . which reminds me, i should get around to doing that vca, but i probably won't until tomorrow if at all.
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Post Post #4507 (isolation #379) » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:59 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

the funny thing about the nacho wagon is it has none of {desp, aj, bro} on it, and of those three, only bro has expressed interest in it. the other two have been largely non-factors today.
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Post Post #4527 (isolation #380) » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:08 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

the funny thing about #4508 and #4509 is that they come out of the woodwork to comment on what i said in #4507 and nothing else.
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Post Post #4529 (isolation #381) » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:28 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

@AJ,

you have time to make relatively large posts, including posts where you give reads and spend time combing back over your iso to quote yourself, surely you have time to do other stuff.

besides i wasn't asking you to vote nacho, i was pointing out that you've completely avoided commenting on him or the wagon on him.

who are you thinking about voting today?
nacho wrote:i don't. i think that they would let the wagon go through on me if they thought they could get away with it. they know that i'm either going to step it up or get lynched, so why stick their necks out before i step it up?
um, because if you're not lynched today, then it's likely AJ will be lynched, so if he is scum and you're town, the choice seems rather clear.

i can maybe understand this point about desp or bro (not so much on bro since he is fully supporting the wagon, even if he isn't voting for some weird as fuck reason so he's still accountable for thinking you're scum if you are town and a lynch goes through on you - and this would actually make him look worse, but whatever), but why do you think aj-scum risks not lynching you-town?

do you think he's just _that_ confident that no one will change their mind about you?
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Post Post #4530 (isolation #382) » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:32 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

also, i wasn't talking about when you were at L-1. i was talking about them not even talking about it at all, before it was clear that you'd most likely be lynched unless you did something amazingly town looking.

why do you think AJ and desp avoided talking about your wagon at all today? like, yeah, i get that you think they're scum, cool beans, but this doesn't explain it, and in fact is plain weird if you are town.

also also, i don't believe you think the scum team consists of 5 PRs. if you did, you'd be questioning the existence of both ftl and venmar/antihero's role in this game in a similar fashion to what varsoon did (because he
actually
believes the scum team could consist of 5 PRs)
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Post Post #4531 (isolation #383) » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:41 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

why AJ, nacho? at best, he's bulletproof scum. at worst, he could be bulletproof town.

why not, say, Desperado, if you really believe the scum team is full of PRs? he could have an active PR that would, in some way, fuck with town.
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Post Post #4536 (isolation #384) » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:44 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

nacho wrote:i doubt aj's a one-shot bulletproof.
why?
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Post Post #4538 (isolation #385) » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:01 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

no, it's been confirmed that mutley wasn't roleblocked. but why would that even matter?

i was assuming you'd say you thought he was 1-shot bulletproof AND something else, but you think he's full bulletproof?
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Post Post #4539 (isolation #386) » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:03 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

o right you don't think he's bulletproof at all?
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Post Post #4541 (isolation #387) » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:54 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

aj wrote:So the question isn't so much who I plan to vote for, it's whether I believe nacho is scum
you were leaning scum on him in your last reads list. what changed?
aj wrote:Really, my issue is I have too few targets now that Mala, Rach and Nick are gone.
how do you have too few targets? you previously believed mala and bro to be scum, and you were leaning scum on desp and nacho. that seems like enough targets.
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Post Post #4547 (isolation #388) » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:39 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

desp wrote:bingo

I'm VT.
nacho asks you to claim so you claim?

...
...
...
desp wrote:I saw a comment directed at me that was clearly designed to elicit a response re: Nacho's wagon, so I provided one.
nah i just found it funny because immediately after i criticised two players who have done not much of anything in this day phase, they both immediately responded to my post.

maybe it's completely coincidental that you're not reading the game and just happen to like me enough to read my posts. that's kind of sweet.
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Post Post #4550 (isolation #389) » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:51 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

ghost, thoughts on just lynching aj today? i realise nacho will most likely kill one of the people making a nacho wagon viable, but it seems a lot easier than the uphill battle of getting nacho lynched with players who call him town but don't talk about why he's town and don't respond to any of the points against him. gonna bet none of the people calling him town even looked at his mala read progression.
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Post Post #4578 (isolation #390) » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:35 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

mm when i suggested that my thinking was that even if town does lynch aj->desp->bro first, if, say, bro flips town, nacho then has to backpedal hard on his town reads all the way to the endgame when the seeds of doubt about his slot have already been sown.

the problem i realised after i suggested that is that if he's a lone goon on an otherwise PR-heavy scum team, then he's just going to ride the logic that scum are all PRs to victory, which makes me kind of sad because i can see players like MS being convinced by him :/
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Post Post #4584 (isolation #391) » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:21 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

nacho wrote:it makes sense to have a stacked scumteam.
agreed. and given the two flips so far, i'd say they're already fairly stacked. i can imagine 3, perhaps 4 PRs to combat town power, but 5 just seems overkill.

for example, the only reason the investigations are near confirmed town is because it's unlikely scum has a godfather given the nature of the inquisitor role and the nature of RM's role. if not for the RM flip, the investigations would hardly be confirmed anything.

besides, what you're suggesting (scum team being full PRs) only makes town power
even stronger
because that would mean every VT result is confirmed town. if we assume that VT results aren't confirmed town because goons are possible, that significantly weakens your theory about how many confirmed town there could be.
nacho wrote:Also, there are chances that mutley was redirected into a bulletproof to set up for AJ claim
this seems rather derpy. it's a very low chance that mutley just happened to be redirected to the player he targeted anyway instead of, say, redirecting to any strong town player and avoiding having to claim BP altogether.
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Post Post #4588 (isolation #392) » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:34 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

it should also be noted that the amount of people suspecting AJ prior to the BP claim was so low that it's not even funny, so any idea that they planned a BP claim is sorta absurd. i am pretty sure i was like the only one calling AJ scum D1, and maybe 2 or 3 others started giving the idea some thought D2.
nacho wrote:which one of the sacred trinity will flip town?
dunno. thinking bro is the most likely of the three atm. mostly because he seems to give more of a fuck than the other two, and i can see scum apathy kicking in about now when the game is mostly figured out.
nacho wrote:vt results aren't confirmed because goons brings the innocent club from 10 to 7
yeah, well, even if this were true, that's the fault of the scum team for shooting the non-confirmed players, isn't it?

i don't think there are that many "confirmed" players, though. IC, masons, maybe 2-shot vig. the rest are iffy at best prior to town knowing a little more about the setup through flips. and the flipped scum roles so far seem to indicate that scum has a lot of power to counter town (redirection, roleblocking and the possibility of passives that interfere with town roles in some way)
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Post Post #4590 (isolation #393) » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:37 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

ebwop: actually, it's not just the possibility that RM's role interfered with town roles in some way. RM's role
did
interfere with town roles in some way. we just aren't sure how at the moment.
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Post Post #4596 (isolation #394) » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:41 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

wayne wrote:you have some explaining to do because there's been no indication she was able to do anything.
... no.
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Post Post #4597 (isolation #395) » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:43 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

if you really need to know how i know details about RM's role, it's because i'm psychic. i predict her role is one that can assign passive abilities to other players. the crystal ball told me so.
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Post Post #4599 (isolation #396) » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:27 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

.................................................

what the fuck are you on about?
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Post Post #4602 (isolation #397) » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:38 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

oh. i think i get what wayne is trying to say. i think wayne is confused (more than usual) and doesn't get that i was talking about RM's role in the sense of overall game balance and not in the sense of what actually happened in this game. so when i say RM's role
did
affect town roles, i'm talking about it in the contextual sense of game balance (which is pretty fucking obvious given the sentence that ebwop was attached to) and wayne's
Brilliant Mind
thinks i was suggesting that RM's role
did
affect town roles in this game.
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Post Post #4603 (isolation #398) » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:44 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

read the sentence like this if you're still confused, wayne:
Godly One wrote:and the flipped scum roles so far seem to indicate that scum has a lot of power to counter town (redirection, roleblocking and the possibility of passives that interfere with town roles in some way - actually, it's not just the possibility that RM's role interfered with town roles in some way. RM's role
did
interfere with town roles in some way. we just aren't sure how at the moment).
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Post Post #4612 (isolation #399) » Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:06 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

nacho wrote:So you feel pretty comfortable with everyone outside of me/bro/desp/aj?
yeah. i have (what i think are) very good reasons for every other player being town. i don't plan to reassess this unless something somehow comes along that changes my mind about those 4 players or one of the rest of the players, and outside of more than one player in that group of 4 flipping town, i cannot really think of a "something" that would change my mind here. dunno if you can really call this confbias, but whatever.
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