Xenogears Mafia (Game Over)

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

@ syrlacious <3

@desp

the entrance post fit his scum meta but pl had not ended yet so I couldn't say it. it is a strong meta read, not in the way of pattern-matching but what I know about andy. he is posturing for affect <---- for andy, I am thinking that is a relative scumtell.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

@ syrlacious <3

@desp

the entrance post fit his scum meta but pl had not ended yet so I couldn't say it. it is a strong meta read, not in the way of pattern-matching but what I know about andy. he is posturing for affect <---- for andy, I am thinking that is a relative scumtell.

Yeah I read those walls from Perpetual Mylo and I can see what you are seeing.

With that said, I also see a) way more detail in his reads and b) way more time spent antagonizing unconfirmed players.

What needs to happen to get you on board with Rach-scum? You were null-scum leaning on her earlier, what changed? I feel like she's gotten scummier as the game has progressed

because I want to get the head before the ass (figure of speech rach, not calling you an ass). everyone leaped onto andy being so tooooooown that is who I want to take especially if I am strong scum reading him. rach falls into the same category as mastin as far as giving them a day.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

tbh that kind of confused me as well

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

mastin is laying it on really really thick.

mac. why aren't you working with me mac.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

mastin is laying it on really really thick.

mac. why aren't you working with me mac.

you know im always down for working with you, im having laptop issues but ill do my best to comply.

is the v broken on your computer cos I don't see a vote

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Why would he bother reading the N1 vig target? Seems like a waste of time.

Why would he bother reading conftown, NS? Seems counter-productive.

ewww.....

no really EWWWWWWW.....

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

If the vig

does

shoot NS.. I think I will personally hunt you down and kill you.

You're talking to Muffin, not me, right? Just making sure, because I might be a little heartbroken if you were talking to me.

Went ahead and read the Andy meta as town, and then his posting here. I DO notice a contrast in the posting. He seems more... well, some others put it as hyper-aggressive so that's the term we're going to use. Changes reads substantially.

HOWEVER, I'd still rather a Rach lynch because she is indefinitely useless in this game. I would not be heartbroken if we decided to lynch Andy, though.

VOTE: RachMarie

Going to do a readthrough of nick soon and decide on him.

@NS: Your humor lacks.

so

I just want to get this straight. you would rather lynch useless scum than useful scum cos of....why?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Hi mollie

hi honey I see scum is being mean to you again

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Go ahead and whine all you want, mollie. Just take from these quotes that MuffinMan called him a Vig target.

that's not me whining that is me saying EWWWWWWW....

Rach is a more solid scum read of mine. Andy's read is much more a meta read, and I don't like basing votes off of meta if I am not 100% confident I am right in that instance. I think Rach is more likely to flip scum than Andy, plain and simple.

this makes me so hot and bothered for an andy lynch it is not even funny

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

andy/nacho/thez and muffin

who else

I don't think it is nicky and I don't think it is bro

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Mollie

After Andy who next

thinking thez and nacho.

that was me.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

andy/nacho/thez and muffin
who else
I don't think it is nicky and I don't think it is bro

Mollie
After Andy who next

thinking thez and nacho.

What are you talking about here? I don't follow.

what is it you don't understand?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

You're saying a bunch of names, what are you saying about those names? Are those scumreads? Townreads?

okay I am pushing an andy lynch

hard

ns asks me who next

I give 2 names

wouldn't it follow that those 2 are my scum reads?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

What about Thez is pinging your scumdar? How he shifted from "vigpls" to "he isn't THAT bad" towards me?

I honestly don't remember that switch if so, thez gets triple points.

the timing. and his reluctance to vote andy but he was gung ho about sheeping us onto a nicky lynch.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

is the v broken on your computer cos I don't see a vote

Lol

this makes me so hot and bothered...

...for an andy lynch

---

Updating my reads list.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

is the v broken on your computer cos I don't see a vote

Lol

this makes me so hot and bothered...

...for an andy lynch

---

Updating my reads list.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

{FTL, nickthename, Mastin, Andi, AJ}
{Ghost, Mac, NS, SOS, TD, TF, Venmar, Thez, Nacho, Muffin, Desp, Mala, Rach}
{BRO, Skull}

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

What about Thez is pinging your scumdar? How he shifted from "vigpls" to "he isn't THAT bad" towards me?

I honestly don't remember that switch if so, thez gets triple points.

the timing. and his reluctance to vote andy but he was gung ho about sheeping us onto a nicky lynch.

Mollie, I made that switch a while ago. Post 712 is when I had a change of heart and didn’t want him vigged (though did not announce it). Post 939 is when I publicly displayed that I am alright with him being alive.

Furthermore, you are misrepping me hard. I changed my vote to nick because you guys did too, but that was after a realization that a FTL wagon was stalling, and FTL was starting, a bit, to show that he might be town to (FTR, I think he’s probs town). I did not, in any way, sheep your read, only the vote because it was a smoother transition. I had my own read on him, and felt he was scum all throughout the process. I put my vote on him due to the stall, and that is why I have changed it again. Notice this:

Speaking of that, let it be heard that I'm completely okay with lynching either RachMarie or nickthename if either wagon progresses a decent amount.

I changed my vote for exactly as I publicly stated in this quote – because the nick wagon was progressing.

okay, I apologising for misrepping you, I know I hate it when it is done to me. I guess when I said "read" I meant vote. I don't see much of a difference but I understand that some people are more particular about word choice (and for good reason especially if you feel you are being painted in a bad light).

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Wait ppl are still discussing if NS should be vigged?

I know, right?

It's getting a bit ridiculous. I think everyone is in agreement that he needs to be vigged N1 so I don't see why people are still talking about it.

uh no. I think most of us think it an obscenely stupid thing to do

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

of course replacing him is not an issue


i'd love for orcinus to join us as conftown

yeah and we can solve the problem by replacing you out so people dont get pissed off over your play

i want orcinus he is nice

Yeah if you're going to be an asshole like that, keep it in your hydra convo. Telling a player to replace out just because you want somebody else to be there is horrible and you should feel like shit.

IAWTP

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Rach is scum because...

Plzplzplz back off Rach for now and help us lynch Andy. Mollie and I will sort out Rach as soon as possible; I think we have conflicting feelings on the slot, which always leads to SuperHappyFunTimes

^TM

during the night phase back-and-forth.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Rach is scum because...

Plzplzplz back off Rach for now and help us lynch Andy. Mollie and I will sort out Rach as soon as possible; I think we have conflicting feelings on the slot, which always leads to SuperHappyFunTimes

^TM

during the night phase back-and-forth.

I might, if it wasn't a largely meta case. Can you sell a case to me that isn't based around meta? Because I feel really good about Rach right about now.

Andy's response to being told that his wall post(s) were largely fluff was to go through line by line on everything "that could be considered fluff" and deny vehemently. That is not a town reaction, my friend. Go back and check if you want; he even said his "Stay Calm Andy Is Here" image wasn't fluff because "it let people know I was here"

Your reason for thinking Andrius is scum is entirely meta reasons, right?

My

reasons aren't meta. I think his reactions to being called out are over the top and scummy. But for what it's worth, I feel Mollie + Ffery agreeing on meta is pretty damning, regardless of what Nacho says.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Although I do want to hear a detailed analysis of Andrius's scum meta and Andrius's town meta and why he is apparently playing to his scum meta. Just linking games and saying, "oh there are similarities here!" is not a reason to think he's scum unless he never does it as town.

Not sure if you will or will not get more out of them. They're both

very

quiet about the intricacies of their meta. They have spreadsheets on players for tells both ways.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

OK. It doesn't particularly bother me if it never happens, but hopefully you can understand why I'm going to ignore every argument about meta.

Yes I understand that you're willfully ignorant that two of the best meta-based scumhunters on the site are agreeing Andy is playing to his scum meta.

That doesn't make you any less dumb for being so.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

best meta-based scumhunters

This means nothing to me.

Maybe this will, then.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

You guys aren't ready, so prepare your butts.

-V

Can it be followed by a tl;dr?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

nacho can you point to somewhere, anywhere, where andy did this much posturing and chest thumping and called for a broforce? or when he banged on incessantly about being in a "rage"? tia

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

also I asked cabd and mac a question and it was never answered

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Mastin/skull/trust/Rach?????

Trust is town, Mastin is town, and Skull is scum lynchbait.

not sure about skull but yes to the former 2

td it will be okay. I think you are in full-blown paranoid mode though

hey syrlacious <3

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

@ syr

I asked him about bro's play in red wedding and if he was seeing the same weird uncertainty. nacho scum read him in that game but they were both still alive in xeno while I was dead. I understood why nacho was reading him as scum cos the xeno and the rw game held vastly different play by bro. I would like mac's input on that and nacho's now that is able to put the 2 games in perspective.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

muffin, in pikman mastin had asked town to wait before lynching a player who didn't have a shitton of votes. player was lynched before mastin was able to post his thoughts but he fortunately he was able to anyways cos there was a lengthy twilight.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Although, the Skull wagon has increased by 50%. So she's still in very real danger.

this might be another case of a fast wagon meaning the person being voted is town.

tell us more about how vigging the IC is optimal play

and when you and ghostlin stop sucking each others' dicks long enough to engage other players in the game mebbe we will be able to lynch scum today

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

@bnb,

Do you want to engage me? Because you're not asking me questions, and seeing as the Andrius wagon is going nowhere until you either do something about it or he posts something that you can call scummy (hint: not happening in the next 24 hours, according to his latest post), I think the burden is on you to engage other players if you want your lynch to happen.

universal scumtells that andy has dropped:

- thread avoidance
- posturing
- buddying
- over-defensiveness when pushed
- appeal to crowd
- lack of cogent progression of reads
- reads list soup which you guys are and heavy to leap all over rach for but seem to ignore that andy did the same thing. the difference is you have people telling you that rach does this as town but other people are telling you that andy does not <--- tangential to a meta read so you will probably ignore it.

there are plenty of objective tells to work from there so why aren't you

In the mean time, I still have to wait for RM to post some stuff so I can call all of it scummy and whine about how everyone is ignoring the obvscum in her posts. So forgive me if I make light banter while I wait. You're free to ignore it and pretend I'm not here, I imagine that's what's happened with most of my posts in this game anyway.[/quote]

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

oops messed up quote tags

@ mod will you plz fix the broken tags in our previous post? ty

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Nachomamma8 is scum.

:'(
i thought you of all people would see the true me

- Venny gets no love for correcly townreading Nacho I guess

Nacho, lets make a deal. You help me lynch one of my scumreads, and i'll take a nice looooooooooooooong look at Skull and interactions around his slot during the night.

so who are your scumreads, mac and mastin who else

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

venny

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

there are plenty of objective tells to work from there so why aren't you

I honestly didn't know people still used "scum tells".

Do you want me to break down why each of them is bad?

I would rather have you explain why you think Andrius is a good lynch by citing examples of his posts rather than claiming that tells make him scum.

My thoughts on Andrius are the same as they were back here:

Gut. I don't have any substantial reason here, so you're a maybe. I didn't like the overreactions in your first wall and I'm not following some of the conclusions you came to in your reads. If I had any strong reason for thinking you were scum right now, you'd be more than maybe-scum, but I don't.

Although I will say the wall this quote is from came off as a bit more townish. It'd help if you explained the SoS/BnB scum reads though, and why you're maybescum on FTL and nick.

This is still outstanding seeing as he hasn't posted since I asked him this, and I'm not comfortable enough with my read on him that I'm happy to lynch him right now.

Tell me why I should vote for him with something more specific than "he committed tells" or "meta".

Not even going to bother pointing out the differences between Andrius/RM, or why you're wrong about me ignoring Andrius because you're clearly not reading my posts about either of them.

I think andy is a better lynch cos to me he looks scummier than rach.

rach was asked to step it up and did so (even if some people are not happy with the results and are trying to paint this as scummy. it is like it does not matter what she posts players committed to their read will still find it scummy)

andy has not.

so you are scum reading andy but are arguing against his lynch when it

does

have support last time I checked, I mean he has been in the lead for a good bit, cos of why? do you have a gut scum read on rach? if so do you see rach and andy being on the same team? do you think we are running 2 scum in competing bws?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

NS y u change avatar

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Hey you!

Yeah! You!

IF YOU HAVE ANDY AS A SCUM READ, WELCOME TO THE REST OF THE GAME.

MAYBE YOU SHOULD BE VOTING HIM INSTEAD OF SOMEONE ELSE.


^ The above applies to everyone with a stated Andy scumread that isn't voting Andy.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

You have my support tomorrow for Nick.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

I have asked for feedback on bro about rw

nacho, cabd, mac and yeah metal was in that game too! can you guyz plz answer this?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

mollie what do you think about mala

not sure tbh

I want to put her in my town pile but I can't. :/

I usually have to rely on other people to read her

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

what are your thoughts ns

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

also i miss goodtimes with mollie but things cant last forever apparently

predit: <333 venmar

I miss good times with

you

, andy.

I didn't think you were interested in good times cos fosed me out the gate and seem only interested in forming a bromance pack. if you change your mind let me know.

UNVOTE: andy

I am going to think about some things.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

I've been reading Andrius as town for the better part of this game since his outrage looked genuine, and his wall was legitimately funny, which some of you might know Bacde thinks is a big town tell, lol, not that I use it. Andrius is just really fun and awesome to keep around, and the only thing that is affecting my read on him is the meta argument, and I might end up supporting it since I used meta arguments to catch Rach in Xenoblade...

Unvote: Mastin2

The thing with Mastin is that i'm seeing half of his play as part of his scum meta, and the other as part of his town meta. The big posts, even though I think they're not that good, look like his town self, and his general posting looks align with his town mentality. What bugs me is that Mastin enjoys weird and obscure votes on non-momentum wagons / players as scum, and Mastins attitude in his first few posts also look really scummy, not to mention Mastins spur of activity was inspired by the wagon that grew on him which makes him look beetlejuicy. The fact he has receeded back I think means his posting was just response to pressure and wasn't town motivated...

Mastin is a slot I will need to keep thinking about, maybe a night overread can help when I have the motivation to do so.

My interest in TD is being re-ignited due to him being quiet, which is kind of how he acted in Xenoblade, or at least that's how I remember him from my short stay in that game.

*shameless prod dodge while

I wait very, very patiently for RM to post so I can call her scum again*

- Dude are you even being serious with me now. It's posts like these that make me more confident in Rach-town.

so are you scum reading muffin then?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

@ ns

I was asking what your thoughts were in general I didn't have a specific question.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

so are you scum reading muffin then?

- No it just proves that Rach is a stupid wagon fuelled by derp like that.

how is he a derp when he does not have your meta base for a town read on rach?

reading old games of a player is very different than playing with them.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

He doesn't need my meta base, he just needs to realize him ( and Thezmon ) trying to make all of Rach's post scummy no matter what is really dumb.

so it is dumb, not scummy

what do you think of the skull/mutters slot

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

UNVOTE: andy

for now

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

@Mollie

Right now I feel like all 4 hydrae are probs town

Andy is probs scum

Nacho is maybe scum

I think the Rach wagon is stupid as fuck

I think Venmar is probs town

I'm back and forth like hell on Mala

I think Mutt needs time to get established before we read his slot because lurksacks don't help anyone

Something in my gut is bugging me about Muffin

.

Ghost is probstown

Nick is still probsscum

I don't know what to think about Desp because I read him wrong last time we played together

I probably forgot people but /shrug

yeah well me too but when I tried to get in his head and fish around for a bit sound came in and basically said "just ignore" and he was all like "okay' so

I don't think nacho and andy would hard buddy like this if they were both scum.

venny is making me nervous

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

I don't like that last post

Still think he's scum

About Andy/Nacho- One scum between them maybe?

you don't like who's last post? muffin's? yeah, he seems to be really concerned about where the votes are.

if 1 of them is scum I would be hard pressed but would want to say andy. he is a bit unsure right now mebbe

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

I reread our drunken convo and don't feel like I was talking to scum. If GiF has a different impression tomorrow or whenever he's back, we'll hash it out somehow.

why are you only bringing this up now

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

that it is taking this long to get some town cohesion with an IC and the people who are reading each other as town is fucking ridiculous.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

mollie re: bro.

I think there is a massive difference between rw bro and this bro and it's kinda making me nervous about him. if you look at rw bro he vote reasonably early on nacho despite having weak day one reads and in this thread he had much stronger reads but took alot longer to vote.

he was more useful with his vote in rw i think but not cautious because he declared intent to hammer KA fairly early on in the day there too.

too summarize: it looks pretty different to RWBro to me and Im gonna add him as a cautious scumread for it. this may be chalked down to RW being a completely different group of players though, whereas there is more familiarity in this game

mollie <3 mac

thank you.

UNVOTE:

andy as much as i thoroughly enjoyed drunk you, can we chat when you are sober? just pull over on your way to the airport or something, yeah?

IAWTP

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

mollie
i don't understand
you cant play with my heart like this
am i dead to you or am i not dead to you
i am fine either way as MY HEART WILLLLLLLLLL GO ONNNNNNNNNNNNNNN but srs I have a couple cards to play etc so if I go I won't be going silently into that good night etc

anywho
i am drunk again
however i cant be drunk tomorrow as i have to drive us to the airport to pick up mina so maybe there will be reading then?


congrats on college, TD!
METAL SONIC DONT YOU CALL THAT ATE. THATS CALLED BEING DRTUNK

I am not the one who is playing with someone's heart here! I unvoted you and I would like to hear more from you.

you get 1 pass from me with this aTe. if you turn out to be scum you will probably have to deal with my paranoia forever.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

mollie re: bro.

I think there is a massive difference between rw bro and this bro and it's kinda making me nervous about him. if you look at rw bro he vote reasonably early on nacho despite having weak day one reads and in this thread he had much stronger reads but took alot longer to vote.

he was more useful with his vote in rw i think but not cautious because he declared intent to hammer KA fairly early on in the day there too.

too summarize: it looks pretty different to RWBro to me and Im gonna add him as a cautious scumread for it. this may be chalked down to RW being a completely different group of players though, whereas there is more familiarity in this game

mollie <3 mac

thank you.

sorry it took so long. how does that compare with what you are thinking?

it is different but I see where you are coming from. he is firm in my sure possibly scummy pile then.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Because how do you type accurately when you're truly drunk? One, you shouldn't even be playing mafia at that point, but two, truly drunk people are rarely that coherent.

It's really not as hard as you think it is.

VOTE: Nickthename

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

I am.

Mollie is still fency but I think she's leaning town on him.

We're currently hashing out reads together.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Leaving him to Mollie.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mastin2

Skull joins cool kids club list.

Next person to try to misrep this post gets a free Syr-swearfest, i'm tired of keeping him chained up.

"Cool kids club" != "cabd's townlist" it means "you're voting for the wagon I am currently on and supporting and urging people onto, cool"

do you think mebbe you can get around to answering the question that I asked

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

So why are some ppl calling muffin scum again?

so who do you have scum again other than bro?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

"Some people" amounts to BnB and notscience as far as I can tell

IDK if Mollie is scumreading you, but you're still a town read on my end.

Don't worry, I won't let her vote you.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

you are town, mollie is town, syr is town, mala is town, varsoon is town, muffin is town, andrius is town, ghostlin is town, mastin is town, mac is town, venmar is town.

i don't think rach is town. rach and I have had some pretty good games together and I think her assertion that she's just bad on D1 is a lie. I've recently killed her as scum N1, I've killed her as scum before, etc. she is aware of mollie and ffery interactions and she is better than "mollie is buddying with X" because she knows your style well enough to know it as a town norm for mollie. her "yeah it's super unlikely that someone is scum in back to back games" seemed pretty fucking fishy to me considering she's never brought up gambler's fallacy ever with me even though I've been scum in a row a couple times with her before. she's been focused in telling us where we should be looking but she hasn't taken those glances herself, repeatedly calling herself an easy lynch, etc. etc. She had TWO scum reads (one of them her counterwagon) and it doesn't feel like she's trying to get any more. and in the end i suppose she's still town but i know she can do better than this.

mutley's slot is probably scum still. skull had a bunch of useless questions and a sketch fucking replace out (please don't let my play affect your opinion of my replacement) and mutley isn't even looking like a facade of his town play. he can't even give us two suspects except the easy one? his interactions with me are also awkward as fuck so there's a bonus.

i would love to have a strong read on BRO, but he's lurking and cabd's meta read is nowhere to be found even though it should really be in thread by now if he wasn't such a lazy lazy boy.

if my feelings on saki are anything close to correct, he's all but confirmed scum with that replace in.

TD scum? nick scum? lurk central. i don't want to be the one to move first in this game but nothing good is gonna come if i don't, it feels like.

this post is just wrong on so many levels.

mebbe we start with "in the end i suppose she's still town" and his maintaining his rach vote.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

did you figure out what else was wrong with that post yet

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

I swear you are just replacing into all my games to try and get me lynched

I remember a frustrated scumbutt used this as a defense once.

I was that scumbutt.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

VOTE: bro

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

what do you think of nacho, sound?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

bro and more bro

mebbe andy defo mutters

I find it disturbing how different my reads are from everyone else except for sound's and their's are pretty close to my own. rach is a weaker read for me I have her as null.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Ok lets work out the facts here;
1) At least half if not more of the playerlist has shown support for putting nick in a scumlist.
2) A wagon has been unable to form on nick despite this.
3) Deadline is in a little over 3 days as of this post.

Based on the above facts, I presume Nick is scum and all these little mini-wagons that have been sprouting up are to keep us from consolidating on nick.

So lets consolidate on nick.
VOTE: nickthename

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Also, no one has actually presented half-decent reasons to think nick is scum.

Avoiding answering questions, having poor votes, not showing any town motivation in his posting...

I mean, really, why are you reading him as town?

(2) is flawed for a number of reasons. I could just as easily say RM is scum because if she was such an easy mislynch like everyone is saying she is, then it shouldn't be so damn hard to get her lynched. Based on this, I presume RM is scum and all these little mini-wagons that have been sprouting up are to keep us from consolidating on RM.

Poor analogy.
I'm saying Nick hasn't had a wagon

despite

a large portion of the playerlist placing him in the scum reads.
You're saying Rach hasn't had a wagon

despite

a large portion of the playerlist saying she's an easy mislynch.

Do you see the problem with your position? No one is calling Rach scum; instead, they're saying she's a scum

target

. No one wants to lynch scum targets but

scum

.

Try again.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

It wasn't meant to be an analogy. I was attempting to point out the absurdity in theorising why such and such did or didn't happen, by making a similarly absurd case about the RM wagon.

... Except there's nothing absurd whatsoever with my theory, counterwagons and splitting up wagons is a common scum tactic in games.

Actually, I'm just going to repeat this:

Avoiding answering questions, having poor votes, not showing any town motivation in his posting...

How do you not see the irony in thinking nick is scum and not thinking RM is scum?

Because RM can be scatter-brained in games with high activity like this. And that explains the first two. I'm assuming your argument on the third probably relies on the first two being some kind of alignment-indicative sticking point.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

No, I'm not saying it's an absurd theory in that it couldn't happen, but that it's an absurd theory if you're saying that

is what's happening

- if you're basing your vote on nick on a theory like that, then I'm calling it absurd. And I could just as easily make up an absurd theory for why the RM wagon is stalling (it's on scum, scum don't want to bus, if she was town, she'd have been lynched already, etc).

I'm basing my vote on nick because he's a scumbutt. I'm supporting the wagon based on the fact that his wagon just can't seem to gain any traction despite plenty of support.

(1) OK. At least you're acknowledging that these reasons apply to RM just as much as nick, so that's a start. The only problem I have here is that you're differentiating between nick and RM because you apparently know RM can do this as town, but you're not sure whether nick does this as town. If you know someone can do this as town, why are these reasons to find nick suspicious and not RM?

... Because one instance =/= everyone?
Someone can reliably do things as town that are generally scummy. Rach is one of these people.

That's why people are calling her lynchbait.

Herp a derp.

(2) The third has to do with, for example, the questions both of them have been asking (whereas nick has been asking questions that actually pertain to scum hunting, like questioning people when their reads differ from his, or asking for explanations of cases, etc, RM has been primarily asking useless questions that didn't have anything to do with her reads or getting a better idea of the thought processes of the people she's questioning) and the way each of them has gone about pursuing their reads (whereas nick has been making cases and giving reasons for his thought processes throughout the game, RM has given two weak scum reads and then gave really, really poor justification for voting Andrius). How easily I can follow the thought processes of a player, and how genuine it looks, is how I discern town motivation from scum motivation. Is it different for you, or do you simply disagree with my assessment?

Ask Mollie if she can dig up the last game we played with RachScum and take a look at it. Or look at her town play in general. You're barking up a tree with her.


Big post incoming.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Spoiler: Scum Readings (8): Aj The Epic, Andrius, FTL, Mastin, Nachomamma8, NS, Venmar, BatB

My scum reads are as they've been: Mala, Rach,

LeanNick

, Nacho...

MAYBESCUM
FTL

nickthename

MyScum:
Andrius (I want this one most)
Trust Fund (Lots of info to get here, too)

nickthename

(pretty low on my list, tbh)
thezmon (Same as nick--I don't want to lynch them without D2 info and a flip/NK to inform. Mac and Desperado fall in those places, too, but I definitely won't see them lynched D1.)

nickthename

Malakittens
Andrius
Nachomamma8
RachMarie
(BROseidon?)

TD scum?

nick scum?

lurk central.

Nick is still probsscum

- Probably Mastin, FTL,

Nick

, Mac, in no particular order.

3 of these are weaker reads, making it a solid 5 guaranteed nick-scum-votes.

Spoiler: Null Readings (2): Ghostlin, Trust Fund

Null

: AJ: I'm not sure it's lack of posts of lack of him saying something useful, but AJ stays in this kind of dangerous spot. Nothing's he's said has struck me one way or another.

Nickthename

: I'm agnostic about Nick. Everything I've read -sounds- Town, but I see other players don't like him, and like AJ, I'm not impressed.

Of the people on that wagon, I have townreads on everyone excepting Skull, nick, BRO. So if there's scum in there, it would be in those three. Which ones? Don't know yet.

Neither of these have strong town feelings for nick. It would not be hard to garner these votes at a deadline lynch. If we include these with the above 8 scum reads, we total 10 votes;

it only takes 11 to lynch. However, the nick wagon has stalled at 3.

Why is that?



One theory proposed is that the active players have voiced town reads on Nick. Lets look at the town reads;

Spoiler: Town Readings (6): RachMarie, SoS, TiphaneDeath, Muffin, Desperado, BROseidon

13. nickthename--- Not much experience with this dude, though he did very well as scum in a skype mafia game and I did not realize he was scum even in LYLO so watching this dude carefully.... Leaning town but watching....

nick is in our kinda town pile.

Nick votes are bad, and you should feel bad.

Actually a wagon on nick never developed because some of the more vocal players have either called nick town (like myself)

nick's content and engagement with the thread has him in my townpile.

I am in the minority calling Nick town.

So we have a weak read by Rach, a "kinda town" by SoS, strong support from TD, Muffin, Desperado and BRO.
That means of the 4 strong-nick-town votes, there is a massive 293 collective posts. Beyond that; if you check the ISOs, only half of these 6 total town-reading-nick players have mounted any kind of legitimate defense / argument for nick-town.



Which brings us to the rest of the playerlist;

Spoiler: Other (4): Malakittens, Mutley, Saki, Mac

Really Nick? Do you not like that Mollie and Fery are trying to communicate reads together. Does this make scum you not able to force fake scum reads and push their wagons?

Mala has largely ignored any and all questions about Nick, and has interacted minimally with the slot. This is about the extent of it.

No stance from Mutley, Saki, Mac

For shame, you four.




So, with 10 pretty-much-guaranteed votes on Nick, and only 11 to lynch, why has this wagon stalled at 3 votes, while other wagons have had no problems growing and dying out naturally? No one wants to talk about nick. When he's brought up, people just kind of ... ignore it.

I posit nick is scum, he's got at least one or two bussers, and the rest of his team is hiding in the null/no-opinion categories with a MaybeRach for her epic fence sitting.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

@B&B : I'd be good with a Nick wagon, but I'm staying put on this Andrius one until it's obvious I can't have it.

Hey mate; it's obvious. You can't have it.

Support for Andylynch has completely petered out. Blame it on AtE, but he isn't happening today. Help me get this nick wagon moving so we can start hunting down his teammates next.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Someone can reliably do things as town that are generally scummy. Rach is one of these people.

The thing with tells is if they don't apply universally, then they aren't reliable tells, and thus shouldn't be used in a case against someone (except maybe as extra evidence to go along with a real case).

Then there is no such thing as a reliable tell and we aught to just quit playing right now.

I imagine if I look through the ISOs of the people who have said nick is either scum or maybescum, the amount of people making a case is basically.... FTL? Off the top of my head, he's the only one who has legitimately analysed nick's posts and said why he think's nick is scum, and that was only relatively recently, when the Andrius/RM wagons were the main ones.

Most of the people listing nick as scum have given reasons/commented on things they dislike, even if a "case" as some comprehensive doesn't exist.

- Your case on nick is (was originally) that his reads are bad and he's playing "hyper-aggressive" which apparently makes him scum because he's done this in skype mafia games.

That was Mollie. My reasons are different. So technically 2 separate cases from this slot.

Tell me why I'm wrong about nick without making large generalisations that equally apply to other people.

Poor reaction to the NS-confirmation, ignored my direct question towards him, shoddy voting history. Number of other things I've already mentioned.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

You're a fucking moron.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

MuffinMan ITT:

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

I think I want to switch back to andy.

nick is on v/la and andy doesn't seem to care he is not even trying.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

You know how I know dismantling the Nick wagon for an Andy wagon is a shit idea?

Because it's really obviously a shit idea.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Then posit a better one or explain why.

I posited a better one; nick. And I've explained why.

Read more.

I think Nick's recent activity and V/LA should merit him getting to D2.

Um lol no.

He's too much of a wild card. Andy, I'm sure is scum. I don't have any qualms about an Andy lynch.
So, why do you?

Drunken posting read town. Lazy town, but town nonetheless.

Get over it Majiffy. You overstated the support you had for Nick, gave it a shot anyway, and failed. You aren't getting 11 votes by Monday night.

... Overstated the support? I provided proof of 10 viable votes. That's not overstating; it's under-performing. Which is highly suspect to those that showed support for nick but won't pony it up when the wagon gets serious.

We've got a lot of information to work off

regardless

of nick's flip, now. BUT WE NEED THE FLIP TO USE THAT.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

deadline is in ~2 days
here's how i want this to work
you all pile onto RM or me

more of you vote me
let me sit at L-1 for a bit
and then we discuss a couple things before I take my leave

okay

it better be good.

VOTE: andrius

I also expect you to continue to push your own lynch through in order to provide legitimacy to your words. I mean L1 after you deliver your grand reveal I want you to self vote. deal?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

can everyone just grow a pair for 5 minutes and call andy on his bluff otherwise you are treating him like retarded town when he isn't

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

can everyone just grow a pair for 5 minutes and call andy on his bluff

While I'm not sure on the exact reasoning for his *plan*, I have two theories about why he wants people to take a firm stance on either him or RM, and I don't think it's a bluff.

if you don't think it is a bluff then help him

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

you said you were raging so how exactly is that a misrep?

I am trusting that you are being sincere and you actually have some retarded plan here.

which is why I am going to drum up some bizness for your lynch. but I want to secure a promise that you will self-vote at L1.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

can everyone just grow a pair for 5 minutes and call andy on his bluff otherwise you are treating him like retarded town when he isn't

mollie do you think i am scum this game?
vote me.

if you don't GET THE FUCK OFF OF ANDRIUS

sorry but what did i say in xenoblade
"andy is town trust me he's a sexy man and i love him"
"nooo, i am paranoid!"

he flipped town
i need you to see eye to eye with me right now and trust me
no logic
nothing but trust
come into these open town arms and stop skitzoing on andylove

if you think he is town then do what he says. run them up.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

nacho

do what he says

I think between the 2 of us I am believing more of what andy is saying than you are.

if he is lying then that is a problem that needs to be fixed now and not held over town's heads later in the game

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

p.s.
L-1 is a point of no return for me
so if you put me there there's no coming back

I am trusting you but if you do this shit to me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daTgQzPddYk

I will rip your soul apart

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

not enough going with andy's plan guyz

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Muffin already disputed several of the people you claimed supported a nick wagon, and those 10 votes include two nulls would you assume would compromise on Nick at the deadline.

It's really not surprising to anyone paying attention that the nick wagon stalled at 6.

1) "Dispute" =/= "Proved wrong".
Evidence weighs in my corner.

2) And without those 2 nulls still puts it at 8/11.
My point still stands about the stalling wagon.

But thanks for arguing in favor of my position!

Where do you fall on Rach vs Andy, Majiffy?

Neither. Rach wagon sucks and Andy looks town.



Going to work now. Try not to give me 6 pages I have to skim through in 15 minutes next time, yeah?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

okay we are in serious danger of having a no lynch.

fery plz get in here cos I want to talk about rach.

she has been posting elsewhere on site and she looks like pondscum to me. I have stayed away from her largely cos of you guys read on her. I don't usually like info lynches but I would rather have 1 than no lynch at all.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

are you goig to be able to talk to him before deadline?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

bah. there are a couple of posts that are really good.

did a quick read through of her iso in xeno and I don't see much difference. I am not liking her fade and the deterioration of engagement since andy started getting run up again.

she is usually lynchbait and that is what I did not like about her wagon.

I good with her lynch i think. even if she is town her wagon will provide a lot of info.

lol, I don't remember the last time we were both town and this confused on d1.

how much time do we have?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

I already tried to help with bro today, yes he will be looked into tomorrow especially if mac and nacho will get behind it (and I am thinking they will).

I still don't get why andy doesn't have a clear read on me I mean my god we hydra-ed together as scum he knows how panicky I get.

I am going to go make some lynch (cilantro lime chicpea patties with cucumber riata omg FOOD TELL!!!! TELL LUIS I DROPPED A FOOD TELL AS TOOOOWN!!1!)

I will be back later and mebbe we can do a cross reads list and see where we are at.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

I would rather lynch rach than andy right now.

VOTE: rach marie

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

google translate actually recognizes that as English.

Drinklish.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Andy I don't like a Rach or youlynch.

Discuss.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Majiffy who do you want us to lynch

I think that's been pretty much the clearest stance anyone has taken all game, so... figure it out?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Andy I don't like a Rach or youlynch.

Discuss.

Both these wagons kinda suck but there doesn't seem to be enough time to scrape together a decent one, so this is what we've got.

Keep gloating, scumbutt.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Nick.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Yeah dividing the wagons even more closer to the deadline is a good idea and not counter-productive at all.

(Y)

^

I will switch to Nick if we have confirmed support TO LYNCH within the next 2.5 hours.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

[5] nickthename (mastin2, Mutleyddmc, notscience, FTL, BATB)

Add your name. 11 gets a vote from me.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Nobody knows what it's like
To get a wagon
On a scumbutt
On day 1

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Top of the page repost is a repost of a repost.

[5] nickthename (mastin2, Mutleyddmc, notscience, FTL, BATB)

Add your name. 11 gets a vote from me.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Nobody knows what it's like
To get a wagon
On a scumbutt
On day 1

But my case, it's not as empty
As my posts seem to be

Only hours, until the deadline
A compromise lynch
I cannot lead

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

in other news
the fuck breaking bad
the fuck

Did that happen? I thought that was tomorrow.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Um?

Last week's episode?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Should end with Jesse?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

OH SHIT ITS FUCKING MONDAY NOW

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

This schedule at the casino is fucking up my mental calendar man...

w00t got time to go watch it before I leave for work!

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

No spoilers thanks loves <3

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Duh and or hello.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Jesus that's bigger than Google Images led me to believe.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

In related news.


Caption: "Saw Breaking Bad on a weird channel, and was annoyed when the commercial wouldn't end. Then I realized;"

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Considering he's one of the two leading wagons, less a Rach scum flip, Andy probably isn't a likely kill target.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Sitting down to watch Breaking Bad.

My body is ready.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Considering he's one of the two leading wagons, less a Rach scum flip, Andy probably isn't a likely kill target.

Do you see why this doesn't make sense from a town-Andy PoV?

I will attempt to answer this like Mollie.

u r a dummy

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

VOTE: rach

for anybody who does not understand why bro is scum look at this.

just look at it.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

got a reads list yet?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

VOTE: bro

nacho I want to have a talk whenever you get a chance.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Bro, you should have gotten a notice that something about you has changed last night. This is important for clearing you, please confirm.

half outs are shit

all I have to say after bro's d1 play and his giant wall is hahahaha no

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

yeah, I was just about to say.

agree saki was probably vigged unless mutters team let him have his way. then that would be multi-ball. but I don't think is the case.

bro misrep mooooaaarrr

if you read the actual game I am the one who started the suspicion on rach. the

only

reason I shelved that read was cos sound had such a strong town read on them. at the end of the day I made it clear that I was going to move the lynch off of andy and finally shared with sound that I found rach to be like pondscum.

its all right here in the game thread.

andy we are lynching bro today. work with me here.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Nah we should lynch andi today. He just slipped, hard.

what do you think the slip is td? cos I have my own theory.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

wait a minute, saki took over thez's slot and that was pretty town.

eat: xpost, that doesn't make any sense, td. he thought mala was dead not sound, so i don't think he made that nk. unless it was all an act in order to drop a town tell.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

It makes perfect sense. Andi thought Mala was dead. In actuality Sound is dead. The scum team last night considered offing mala, before switching to sound. Andi forgot they had switched their NK. Simple and easy as pie.

nah, mala was lynch fodder, scum would not have nked her.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

andy we are lynching bro today. work with me here.

I see what you want but mastin.

mastin

. So damn good and so not here for the deadline lynch.
Bit more work to do in that reading area but.

we promised sound.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

well I am pushing for a bro lynch unless something spectacular happens. it would be a shame to divide town.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

2519 is to BnB

I work with my town reads. sound was town reading rach, I however was not but I was willing to work them on someone we were reading as scum. that is how teamwork

works

. andy town telled. we went back on rach. that is what happened.

that you are trying to paint this as scummy is laughable and downright ridiculous.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

mala plz vote bro

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

And it didn't strike you as odd that I was voting for the person you thought was dead?

Also holy fuck I'm going to be the AJ of this game. Remember, when I flip town to ACTUALLY LOOK AT MY READS BECAUSE HOLY FUCK AJ'S READS WERE GOOD LAST TIME AND I WAS SO PLEASED WHEN EVERYONE IGNORED THEM.

^ most blatant suck up post ever considering aj only had you and rach as scum. I wanted to kill rach with fire but I could not get it past majiffy or nacho. nacho would not even look at you and 2 town read you to such a degree I figured mebbe she was right.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

I work with my town reads. sound was town reading rach, I however was not but I was willing to work them on someone we were reading as scum. that is how teamwork works. andy town telled. we went back on rach. that is what happened.

that you are trying to paint this as scummy is laughable and downright ridiculous.

You're missing the part where you tried to completely derail the Rach wagon to flash-wagon Nick. You know, the actual core of my argument. You didn't just jump back.

the other person whom you think is scum?

are you for realz coming at me with this weak shit?

you can talk about derails until the fucking cows comes but the truth is I had no way of rach's alignment and I had very strong town read and the other head of this hydra saying she was town. I had to compromise somewhere. period. end of story.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Nacho was being waffle-ey as fuck on me.

How is that not suspicious.

HOW IS THAT NOT SUSPICIOUS. HE HAS THE MOST EXPERIENCE PLAYING WITH ME OF ANYONE ON THIS SITE (Other than PA's off-site meta with me that is largely moot), AND HE COULDN'T FUCKING FORMULATE A DECENT READ ON ME DAY 1 WHEN MOST PEOPLE WERE BEING AT LEAST MODERATELY DECISIVE IN HOW THEY WERE READING ME.

this is me giving you the thor face.

AND NACHO WAS FUCKING PROTECTING RACH.

HOLY FUCK MOLLIE I DON'T THINK YOU CAN BE THIS OBTUSE ABOUT IT.

yes nacho was fully protecting rach by voting her and pushing her wagon it all makes sense now

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

CAPS LOCK RIGHTEOUS TOWNIE FURY TIME GUYS

lol

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

here are your interactions with rach + the hammer vote

And there are plenty of other players with whom I've had that level of interaction. I went V/LA and then didn't bother catching up for most of the dayphase. I only hammered because I didn't trust that it'd get done before the deadline, and lynching town is still better than a NL.

pedit: HOLY FUCK I SAID I THINK ONE OF YOU IS SCUM. YOU MADE A GOOD CASE AGAINST HIM, BUT THE CONTEXT OF THAT CASE (BEING COUNTER TO THE RACH WAGON) MAKES ME EYE IT SUSPICIOUSLY. YOU WOULD KNOW HER ALIGNMENT IF YOU'RE HER PARTNER, WHICH IS, Y'KNOW, WHAT I'M SAYING IS PLAUSIBLE. YOU SEEM TO BE FAILING TO UNDERSTAND HOW I AM VIEWING THIS GAME: SCUM KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON. SCUM TRY TO CONSTRUCT A NARRATIVE THAT LEADS TO THEIR WIN. TOWN'S JOB IS TO FIGURE OUT THIS NARRATIVE TO FIGURE OUT WHO THE SCUM ARE. YOU AND NICK BOTH MAKE SENSE BASED ON WHAT HAPPENED, DEPENDING ON WHICH OF TWO VERY LIKELY NARRATIVES WAS IN PLAY.

GET OFF YOUR SELF-RIGHTEOUS "I'M RIGHT" HORSE FOR ONCE AND ACTUALLY ENGAGE WITH WHAT I AM SAYING.

it makes sense from your viewpoint cos you are scum. if you had spent the better part of the d1 engaging with people you would actually know what was going on. but you didn't and if you think you can waltz in to this day round after your main antagonist is dead and push really shitty cases you are wrong.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Nacho: Refer to above image. I'm thinking 50-65% chance.

The main issue I'm having is that I read through everything last night, and it felt like you were not pushing for Rach nearly as hard as town-you normally would. The fact that you townread her early stuck with me MORE than the fact that you were on the wagon and supporting it in the end; I attribute the Rach push to

Muffin/Thez/Desp

. Not to you.

That's not what I'd expect from you.

There's also the whole issue of your interactions with Venmar, who had disgusting interactions with Rach.

Maybe a Venmar lynch first would be good...

lol.

Naw still want Mala's head on a platter. Nhammen's first post pinged and Mala's done jack to alleviate that since then.

oh was this why you were sucking up to aj?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

it makes sense from your viewpoint cos you are scum. if you had spent the better part of the d1 engaging with people you would actually know what was going on. but you didn't and if you think you can waltz in to this day round after your main antagonist is dead and push really shitty cases you are wrong.

You realize I primarily work through reading other people's interactions/rereading, right?

no, I didn't, cos you somehow have managed to miss the entire progression of where I was at with rach.

it is right here. in this thread. that you claim to have read from a town standpoint which you have not. cos you are not town.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Considering how little you posted day 1, that one post was fairly substantive.

pedit: Part of me wants to get lynched now just to knock you off your high-horse, but that doesn't help town.

And I'm not sucking up to AJ. I'm just pointing out that last time around, nobody was willing to accept that he might be town with valid opinions, and it ended up helping me win.

Sort of like you're doing now.

hey, I kept reaching out to you on d1 cos I thought I was seeing something similar that went on in rw. you never showed up. you actively posted elsewhere on the site and avoided this game.

NOW THAT YOUR NUMBER 1 ANTAGONIST IS DEAD I GUESS YOU FEEL SAFE TO COME IN AND PUSH YOUR SCUMMY AGENDA.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

^mollie, take note. THAT is how you engage with someone. I can understand why ffery hates playing with you; you become incredibly bull-ish and seem completely unwilling to work with anyone outside of a specific set of players. Pretty sure mastin's made a post about this...

I work with my town reads, whoever they may be. end of story.

and for the record, what you posted right there just made me sad and will probably break a 3 year friendship that was seriously on a thin rope. whatever your alignment, I hope that what you thought you gained from that comment was worth it.

and for the record, it would not be the first time that scum used fery and I's strife as a way to discredit me. you know what makes me sad about this? she provides them with the ammo. which of course makes sense since she is dead and can't say anything about it.

Nacho, here is the issue that I have with the big picture:

1) Early read on Rach.
2) Waffle on Rach
3) Push onto Skull/Mutt, which was initiated in the same post where you threw shade on a few other "soft" targets (myself included). This push looks opportunistic as fuck, because it looks like scum trying to push through an easy early lynch.
4) Jump back to Rach, relatively passive play.
5) Super-protect on Andy.

The waffley-ness on Rach is somewhat troublesome, but so is the push on Skull/Mutt. Skull/Mutt was not a good push. They weren't doing anything; the slot was incredibly null. Why would you go onto that push OVER Rach, who was being incredibly scummy throughout the day?

Also, why are you bringing up the fact that you've had a bad run of reading Rach when discussing your tenativeness to read her as scum early, but you aren't saying the same about me?

Last I checked, you've misread me in 3 of our most recent games together (Fire and Ice, Xenoblade, and Jobpick where you thought I was scum even though you were scum yourself)

.

Also, Nacho, this image indicates that I'm not alone in this sentiment:

...............Andrius
..................|
Mala-Rach-Nacho
...|.......|
...|---Venmar

wrt the bold: that kind of contradicts your declarative statement earlier that nacho can read super duper well, yeah?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Also, Mollie, you pretty much asked everyone else about RW, but I don't recall those questions being directed at me.

I wasn't looking at the thread except for vote counts/timer, since I was engaging with other games and really didn't want to spend 2.5 hours sludging through everything, only for ffery/gif to use their prestige to push my lynch through anyways.

you were never around in the game when you were around

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

and for the record, what you posted right there just made me sad and will probably break a 3 year friendship that was seriously on a thin rope. whatever your alignment, I hope that what you thought you gained from that comment was worth it.

and for the record, it would not be the first time that scum used fery and I's strife as a way to discredit me. you know what makes me sad about this? she provides them with the ammo. which of course makes sense since she is dead and can't say anything about it.

I do not intend to hurt yours and ffery's friendship in any way, and I apologize if my comment does this in any way. It's just incredibly frustrating that you refuse to engage with your scumreads in any meaningful way because of how convinced you get they are scum. You don't take a nuanced, probabilistic approach to the game. Notice how I've scumread Nacho, but I'm still willing to engage with him to develop the read further. Why? Because I might be wrong. It happens.

I have been engaging you. what you are providing is a shitty case, a bunch of sledge that tbh breaks my fucking heart and as strong of a confbias as you are accusing me of. I am following up on a dead town's read.

what you are doing is despicable.

if you are town your townieness will shine through. if you are scum well then sound gets to live with the discrediting factor and why the lynch on you was fractured.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Oh, I just figured you were.

who were you talking to here?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Here’s the problem I’m having right now with how your engaging with me. You’re not just being aggressive, you’re also being a bit mean (and I admit that I’m not being particularly nice back). Being on the receiving end of it feels less like you think I’m scum and want me lynched, and more like you think I’m scum, want me lynched, and want me to feel bad about it.

do you feel bad about it?

You have nowhere articulated any scum-motivation why my case is shitty, though. All you’ve done is said “your case is bad. SCUM!” Town get things wrong. I think TD’s completely off the mark; doesn’t mean I think he’s scum. Everything you’ve said is positional; none of it actually talks about interests.

I did articulate why I thought your case was scum motivated. like several times.

when you say "positional" and "interests", could you elaborate so that I am on the same page with what you are saying?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

BnB/Nick (leaning towards BnB right now for trying to derail Rach lynch)

False, or at the very least misleading.

If I was trying to derail the Rach lynch I would have unvoted. I wasn't willing to move my vote until support TO LYNCH NICK was UNQUESTIONABLY PRESENT.
Aka I was deliberately trying NOT to derail the Rach wagon until I KNEW Nick's lynch would go through.

Also, you started the Rach wagon and then tried to derail it when you saw the opportunity. Hard bus+avoid bus when other option opens up, perhaps?

You're a moron.

That nick vote into unvote is awkward as fuck, btw.

maybe because he's a scumbutt, you derp.

It can has be lynch Nick time nao?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

See ya'll in 18 hours or so.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

I'M SORRY THAT YOU FIND ME DUMB FOR CONSIDERING POSSIBILITIES AND PLAYING AROUND WITH THE IDEA THAT YOU'RE SCUM /sarcasm

I'm sorry you're trying to point at a bicycle and call it a 16-wheeler. Your narrative of what happened

simply does not fit the facts.

I mean, instead of rebuking my argument for why your narrative is wrong, you come in and /sarcasmtag. That should tell you something.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

he is

that was me. sorry

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

You mean this self-meta-ey WIFOM?

You could have been unwilling to unvote in case the lynch went through, and therefore the unvote would have looked bad.

... There's nothing self-meta-ey about it. I was unwilling to move the vote on Rach unless the lynch on my all-day-long scumread of Nick was unquestionably supported to go through.

You can try to twist it all you want, but you have no argument here.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

... There's nothing self-meta-ey about it. I was unwilling to move the vote on Rach unless the lynch on my all-day-long scumread of Nick was unquestionably supported to go through.

You still tried to get Nick lynched over Rach.

That is still an attempted derail.

Just because you didn't go all-out trying to derail doesn't change the fact that SAYING WE SHOULD FLASH-WAGON NICK IS STILL A POSITION THAT DERAILS THE RACH LYNCH.

... You realize the idea was floated originally by conftown, right?

Just sayin'.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

actually i dont really remember aj doing anything substantial.

last game i scumread him heavily d1 so maybe he's trying not to stand out and be lynched. still interested to hear your reason muffman

he was on to mala all day what are you talking about

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

also muffinz <3

I feel your pain

I really feel it. transpose you and our's name and drop aj and that looks exactly like what I have on my spreadsheet.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

votecount

Spoiler:

[8] TiphaineDeath (Venmar, zMuffinMan, nickthename, BeautyAndTheBeast, Mac, Ghostlin, Faster Than Light, Trust Fund)

[5] Faster Than Light (thezmon221, Malakittens, Skullduggery, TiphaineDeath, nickthename)

[6] mastin2 (Venmar, Trust Fund, BROseidon, nickthename, TiphaineDeath, Skullduggery)

[7] Andrius (BeautyAndTheBeast, Sound of Silence, notscience, Trust Fund, Malakittens, RachMarie, Mac)
[7] RachMarie (zMuffinMan, Andrius, Desperado, Faster Than Light, thezmon221, TiphaineDeath, Aj The Epic)
[4] mastin2 (Venmar, BROseidon, nickthename, Skullduggery)

[5] RachMarie (zMuffinMan, Andrius, Desperado, Aj The Epic, Nachomamma8)
[4] Andrius (Trust Fund, Malakittens, RachMarie, Faster Than Light)
[3] mastin2 (BROseidon, nickthename, TiphaineDeath)
[3] nickthename (mastin2, notscience, BeautyAndTheBeast)

[7] RachMarie (zMuffinMan, Andrius, Desperado, Aj The Epic, Nachomamma8, TiphaineDeath, Ghostlin)
[5] nickthename (mastin2, notscience, BeautyAndTheBeast, Faster Than Light, Mutleyddmc)
[3] Andrius (Trust Fund, Malakittens, RachMarie)

[9] RachMarie (zMuffinMan, Desperado, Nachomamma8, Ghostlin, BeautyAndTheBeast, Aj The Epic, Sound of Silence, Andrius, Trust Fund)
[4] Andrius (Malakittens, RachMarie, Faster Than Light, TiphaineDeath)
[3] nickthename (mastin2, Mutleyddmc, notscience)

just putting this here so i can ctrl+f my iso and find the important d1 wagons to look at later

he was on to mala all day what are you talking about

he was talking about a mala/rach scum team for a lot of D1 and swapped to rach relatively late.

if there was bussing on the rach wagon when it was stalling, he would be my first guess.

if that were the case then that would probably make mala town. how does that fit in your worldview <-----sincere question btw I really want to know what you think.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

mollie why are you still voting bro?

why are you asking me this question?

we have a hydra together, you don't move my vote until I feel like it. I don't feel like it at the mo.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

* you know I don't move

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

mollie why are you still voting bro?

why are you asking me this question?

we have a hydra together, you don't move my vote until I feel like it. I don't feel like it at the mo.

there have been developments since you voted him. has your stance on him changed?

I think he is a despicable asshole and he makes me wish I really just dropped out of the game when fery pulled her bullshit.

does that count?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

not what I was looking for, but we can talk when you're not mad.

if you think it is anger I feel then you don't know me as well as I thought you did.

look at what he is doing. he is going after us for derailing the rach lynch. we went after nick cos we were scum reading him and we still are. he is to trying imply that nick must be town for some weird reason when it is not unusual to have 2 competing wagons on scum on d1. <---- that he isn't even entertaining this demonstrates that his premise is agenda driven and not scum hunting.

I am somewhat scum reading mala for a similar reason. I think nick, mala and bro might all be scum.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

@ muffin

get we have an understanding here? I didn't dismiss either of yours or desp's case. did you see the 1 I had early in the game? rach made 2 really bad slips and I said she looked like she was dipped in baby oil. but sound had a

strong

town read on rach (it was mostly on guy's end) so i dropped it and started treating her as town.

there are a handful of players that I will defer my reads to. the sound hydra is 1 of them. but when andy started doing what looked like town flail and I noticed rach was conveniently fading into the background but was posting on other parts of the site and this was going on for

days

I was like on no, she is scum. I thought I was gonna have to fight sound on it and was relieved that I didn't have to.

you are my rock right now. somewhere along the line I have decided I like you so I will be clinging to you like a burr. don't let that freak you out or anything cos that is just the way I am when I am feeling uncertain.

I a meta reading aj as town right now cos so far my experience with him has been that when he is town he is not afraid to pursue weird tangents and he is not afraid of how he looks. I can see why the timing of his looked like a bus but I see as more of a null tell. he is a weak town read and I would like to look elsewhere, I think for now at least. if you want to tag team him later I will help you with that.

@ aj

no, I do not want bro lynched cos I don't like him, I don't play that way. that you are dismissing my read on him is a cheap misrep. you lose town points for that.

I want bro lynched cos of his avoiding this game like a contagious disease while posting elsewhere on the site on d1. he looked nervous and uncomfortable the entire d1 round and yet comes blazing in here on d2 when the very vt person who was going to go after him is dead when there specials practically building billboards to announce that they were special. he then tries to accuse us of being scum when anybody with half a brain could see that we are town and that we fully intended on going after bro today since we promised the dead player that we would indeed, go after him.

* d1 thread avoidance when pressure was applied
* dead player who was wanting his blood and he was obviously afraid of
* terrible terrible read up of the thread
* shitty case on us
* fery's read

those are good enough reasons for me.

my user title really ought to be worst hydra slips ever

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

look at what he is doing. he is going after us for derailing the rach lynch. we went after nick cos we were scum reading him and we still are. he is to trying imply that nick must be town for some weird reason when it is not unusual to have 2 competing wagons on scum on d1. <---- that he isn't even entertaining this demonstrates that his premise is agenda driven and not scum hunting.

Nick's awkward jump onto and then off of my wagon makes me want to go to a scumgroup of Rach/Ven/Mala/Nick for now, and work out from there to find any other scum. Ugh, wish I had time to quad-ISO (also fuck this site for only being able to run 3 ISOs in a single tab).

My entire tiff with Jiffy didn't change this. I'm still leaning towards Nickscum.

Now can you stop attacking me ad hominem because I got frustrated with you and made a snide remark? I crossed a line that I shouldn't have, and I've apologized multiple times. I'm not sure what more you want from me.

this will probably be the last post I respond to of yours, majiffy can deal with you.

I only remember 1 apology, not that it matters.

I apologise for calling you an asshole. there is no excuse for that. and yes I will not call you any more mean names I will just think them in my head.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Venmar is also a good place to shine a light.

Still really want my nick lynch and if we could just go ahead and get that wagon a-rollin' that'd be GREEEEAAAAAAT

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

VOTE: Nick

Commandeering this vessel.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

okay andrius I am sold.

VOTE: mastin

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

okay andrius I am sold.

VOTE: mastin

no this is town mastin

well i had him as strong town but he hard townread us on d1 and has suddenly developed amnesia about it in that post he backpedaled in.

the thing with venny is that pgos are usually policy lynched so why would you do that and not follow it up with with a town heavy-looking play.

mebbe he wasn't thinking it all of the way through but it seems like a high cost/low reward type of move so idgi.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

[11] RachMarie (zMuffinMan, Desperado, Nachomamma8, Ghostlin, BeautyAndTheBeast, Aj The Epic, Sound of Silence, Andrius, Trust Fund, Saki, BROseidon)
[4] Andrius (Malakittens, RachMarie, Faster Than Light, TiphaineDeath)
[3] nickthename (mastin2, Mutleyddmc, notscience)
[1] BROseidon (Mac)
[1] mastin2 (nickthename)
[1] TiphaineDeath (Venmar)

Would just like to point out: with the exception of Nacho (who, yes, I do fully believe was bussing) and Andrius (who is in ideal bussing position) and BRoseidon (whose hammer was incredibly-suspicious), that the Rach wagon is pretty dang solid.

The Andrius wagon, in contrast, has Malakittens and RachMarie on it. Then there's nick, who vote-parked on me literally for the entirety of the day, with pretty much no reasoning behind it at all.


By the way--I find it no coincidence that the hydra with ffery in it died. Of all the players in this game, I think Nacho fears her the most as scum. Yes, you can write this off as coincidence. But I don't think so. Since I brought up his similarities in this game to his play in Buzzword Bingo mafia, let's actually quote FROM that game.

Ffery/buldey play with me offsite a lot, where they got a glimpse of the weakest part of my scumgame. I am a little better at hiding here, but they're attacking me for getting an early townread on them and attacking Jake.
ffery, that was an amazing scumtell you have on me that I picked up on recently
I usually focus on defense a little when I come under fire; i don't know if ffery knows that yet
They know me. I can throw false positives all over the fucking place as town and I can throw false negatives all the time as scum but fferyllt will find me eventually.
I'm in the weakest point of my scumgame with them. I'm going to give this my best fucking shot but god fucking damnit i hate switching gears.
ffery used to be able to read me really, really well. some of this old power retains, but not all of it.
She's caught me out when I've been in a foreign site and she's caught me out after I killed her. But she can read me now; I have to make her forget that she can read me and give her that feelgood feeling she needs to move on. I'm going to show her my personal lie castle as scum, and either that will work and solidify the read or it will cast doubt.
Unfortunately, I need aspects of my scum meta in my play. So I won't avoid them all, but if she picks up on them, I'll know I have to do a hard reset of my scumgame for her specifically. She's picking out weak trajectory reasons for now, but if she's getting me lynched she's doing a hell of a lot more than that.

(Just read the scum QT in its entirety. It's basically "Why I need to always get rid of fferry", the essay. ) For further parallels, he ended up bussing Rach in a manner not too dissimilar to how he ultimately bussed me in that game. Butyeah. Nobody in this game needed fferyllt dead more than Nacho did. Yes, her ability to read Nacho isn't perfect, and yes, it has decreased. But Nacho probably still holds that fear for her, that even if she townreads him NOW, it'll only be a matter of time before it's reversed into a scumread, and with a hydra buddy backing her up, she would be unstoppable, and unrelenting in her scumread of him.

sorry, but I think bro's thread avoidance on d1 and his sudden interest in the game to be far more damning than nacho.

and I am paranoid of nacho.

but I am I think he might be town this game.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

the thing with venny is that pgos are usually policy lynched so why would you do that and not follow it up with with a town heavy-looking play.

millers are supposed to be policy lynched too.
policy lynches don't usually go through on this site. I don't know why he wouldn't be throwing out the heavy town play regardless of alignment, but I could easily see him not being able to fake it as scum.

they most certainly do go through that is why there are some threads about them in md.

so why draw that much attention to yourself?

idk. I am having to marry that venny has stated in games that he is losing interest and it makes his performance mediocre. he did this as town in the legends game.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

idk. I am having to marry that venny has stated in games that he is losing interest and it makes his performance mediocre. he did this as town in the legends game.

he was also pretty fucking town in the legends game. he's not that town here.

what do you think of him blaming rach's scumflip on the PUSH on her when he didn't say shit about the push on her yesterday?

I thought he did.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

nightmare scumteam:

andy/nacho/mastin/and someone else

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

nightmare scumteam:

andy/nacho/mastin/and someone else

andy/nacho/mastin/mala

it would be the stuff of nightmares so i don't even want to think about it

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

idk. I am having to marry that venny has stated in games that he is losing interest and it makes his performance mediocre. he did this as town in the legends game.

he was also pretty fucking town in the legends game. he's not that town here. what do you think of him blaming rach's scumflip on the PUSH on her when he didn't say shit about the push on her yesterday?

we got him lynched in mylo in legends.

do you think that he would drop a claim like that and disappear?

I don't like his play in this game. but it seems weird to go ballsy with a claim to avoid night actions and then not follow through. I would be pissed at my scummate if he did this.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

And, seriously, mollie. I'm town. There's no contradiction. My stance on you has never changed. Near the beginning of the game, I

was

concerned with you; it's there in my posts, multiple times. But that was short-lived, and it turned town VERY quickly. Midway through August 12th. Near the beginning of that day, it was "might be scum". Near the end, it was "might be town". Within a couple of days, it was simply "town".

I am so glad that you checked back in order to make this consistent. it saves me work, mebbe

so what moved you to having us as "strong town!" cos you did say this to being in the lower tier?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

legends.

wait are you talking about hidden temple?

yes

I would be pissed at my scummate if he did this.

I would be too. I would also be more likely to go absolute balls-out as a PGO than I would as scum fake-claiming PGO.

not if you were apathetic town. see my point here?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

VOTE: bnb Both of your heads are smart enough to know what's going on, therefor you are scum. GG.

Go on, I'd love to hear your brilliant rendition of why we're scum.

And hey can

SOMEONE

FUCKIN

ANYONE

Explain to me why

SO MANY PEOPLE ARE SCUMREADING NICK

And yet

SO FUCKING FEW (AND BY THIS I MEAN

NONE

)

ARE PLACING A GODDAMNED VOTE?

Thanks!

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

^ If you have placed Nick anywhere in a scum pile and you do not respond to the above in your next post, you instantly go to the scumpile.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

AND IM FUCKING WATCHING YOU PEOPLE

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

@mollie: busy voting venmar

that wasn't me but I agree with majiffy (and this is rare and should be noted) I think nicky might be scum too.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

nacho what do your reads list look like

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

a scumgroup of Rach/Ven/Mala/Nick

Why aren't you voting Nick?

And nick is maybe scum going for the double town lynch setup.

Why aren't you voting Nick?

Also, nick's still scum.

Why aren't you voting Nick?

Also, TF, Nick failed your reaction test.

Why aren't you voting Nick?

and so i'm left with: aj, mala, nick, venmar

Why aren't you voting Nick?

I have Nick as a scum lean

Why aren't you voting Nick?

SCUM
nickthename

Why aren't you voting Nick?

AND IM FUCKING WATCHING YOU PEOPLE

grab my hand and lynch venmar with me
we can lynch nick next.

No we lynch Nick first LOOK AT ALL THE SUPPORT WE HAVE TO LYNCH.

Because I'm also scumreading Mala and have my vote there right now.

No we lynch Nick first LOOK AT ALL THE SUPPORT WE HAVE TO LYNCH.

@mollie: busy voting venmar

No we lynch Nick first LOOK AT ALL THE SUPPORT WE HAVE TO LYNCH.

Here let me help you guys it's really simple, really.

Code: Select all

[vote]nick[/vote]

Just copy/paste that into a new post and hit enter! It's really that simple!

VOTE: nick

See?!

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

If everyone in the above post voted Nick right now we would have 10 votes on Nick.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

TEN FRIGGIN VOTES

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

GUESS HOW MANY IT TAKES TO LYNCH

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

No we lynch Nick first LOOK AT ALL THE SUPPORT WE HAVE TO LYNCH.

will you pledge yourself to kill venmar tomorrow?

I can't pledge anything Mollie rarely lets me off the leash but I'll try.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Mebbe I can sweet talk her with some Barry White and a red wine.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

atm i would want
venny, nicky, mala, probably bro still

you were town reading bro like 5 seconds ago

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Mebbe I can sweet talk her with some Barry White and a red wine.

<3

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

No we lynch Nick first LOOK AT ALL THE SUPPORT WE HAVE TO LYNCH.

will you pledge yourself to kill venmar tomorrow?

I can't pledge anything Mollie rarely lets me off the leash but I'll try.

i will help you

Oh baby you
You got what I need
So lets get votes on nick
So lets get votes on nick

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Meant to say this, Rach scum probably means Andrius town. Not guaranteed, but very likely.

I know I saw those no shit stickers laying around here somewhere...

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

WE CAN LYNCH MALA LATER. I AM - and idk if Mollie is ? - TOTALLY WITH YOU ON HER. AND VENMAR. AND WE CAN ADDRESS THESE FOLK NEXT. BUT WE HAVE SUPPORT TO LYNCH NICK SO STOP BEING A LITTLE PUSSY BITCH AND PLACE YOUR VOTE ON NICK GODDAMNEDITSHITFUCKTITTYS.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Nick simply ISN'T A THREAT.

Nick has had support for lynch for 2 day phases and has been unable to garner a wagon.

You know what the biggest threat to town is? Scum that can't get lynched.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

If I have to tie Mollie down for a couple of days I think I'll be able to handle the challenge.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

I was talking about the nick wagon ven.

It's ok we never said you were bright.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

-That said, I also think it's a quickwagon.
-Which means that they want the day over. Now. Rather than later.
-This is why I'm not voting.

We have... what, 5 votes? Tops? And I've been stomping my feet and yelling since YESTERDAY to get this wagon to happen.

If this is a quickwagon, I'd hate to see what your idea of a slowwagon is.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

BORK IS YOUR WIFE A PLUMBER? CUZ I BET SHE WAS LAYIN' SOME PIPE HEH HEH OHHHYEH

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

atm i would want
venny, nicky, mala,

probably bro still

then why the fuck did you jump off of him at the first opportunity and give me no support?

me

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

VOTE: nacho

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

atm i would want
venny, nicky, mala,

probably bro still

then why the fuck did you jump off of him at the first opportunity and give me no support?

me

he is currently my fourth choice. i am not interested in pushing him.

your read lacks progression.

you were hot and heavy to vote him at the start of the day but then moved off cos you were town reading him and now you put him back in your scum pile? what changed from you changing to town to a town read and then back to scum and why are you not even remotely pursuing it?

cos that is a big change

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

VOTE: nacho

Stop.

VOTE: Nick

VOTE: nacho

See above.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Not me. What're you seeing mollie?

nacho knows how to follow up reads on dead players especially players he can trust.

he votes bro at the start of the day - no reason given. the assumption would be that he was following up on fery's and

his own read

of bro-scum. he moves his vote off of him cos bro was being more town. okay I buy that, but why move bro back to probably scum when bro hasn't really done super scummy for nacho to backpedal on a town read.

his case on venny was shitty, he addressed the high risk/low reward for venny by attacking the policy lynching aspect and not what he thinks venny would actually do.

a bunch of shit is not adding up with him.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

also nicky I am great at reading you when I am retired werewolf sk.

eta: the backpedal on you looked natural given the scope of what you had presented. you aTed and nacho goes with that normally, so no that does not factor in my read.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Why

Because we're lynching Nick today.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

he votes bro at the start of the day - no reason given. the assumption would be that he was following up on fery's and his own read of bro-scum. he moves his vote off of him cos bro was being more town. okay I buy that, but why move bro back to probably scum when bro hasn't really done super scummy for nacho to backpedal on a town read.

I already talked about this.

his case on venny was shitty, he addressed the high risk/low reward for venny by attacking the policy lynching aspect and not what he thinks venny would actually do.

I attacked the policy lynching aspect when you brought it up as a reason venmar could be town. I didn't bring it up before then.

why would you bring it up before then

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

nacho can you tell me why you are moving bro back to scum?