Newbie 1436 ~ Game Over

[fferyllt]

GIFT?

[fferyllt]

It could be both.

[fferyllt]

He calls it the fuzzybutternut rule.

@notsci my paranoia is p much limitless wrt Cabd. I screw up reading him by second guessing and overcompensating/undercompensating for it.

My read of this situation hinges on Sakura.

[fferyllt]

What's the fuzzybutternut rule? Just curious.

A theory so insanely improbably batshit that it can't be coming from a scum perspective.

That rule took a few dents in the Death's Diner game.

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jesus christ this game.

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So ok, since I'm townreading ffery at the momment I'll just try to work with her, considering scum would try to twist my words.

So ffery, do you have any reason not to believe that if I were a cop wouldnt I have investigated Cabd, the person I can never tell the alignment of, N1?

The only problem I have with this as an argument is that you said you had a Cabd town read on day 1.

[fferyllt]

Hey ffery you hear that? I'm playing you like a puppet. Dance for me?

I'd feel more insulted about it if not for AMoL and shit. :/

[fferyllt]

The only problem I have with this as an argument is that you said you had a Cabd town read on day 1.

Yes now, would Scum-Cabd have killed me D1 if I didnt?

Why would he kill you for scumreading him?

Hint: As scum, he doesn't usually eliminate players who are scumreading him.

[fferyllt]

Wat ffery

He literally told Saki if he had a legitimate shot to lynch him he was as good as dead

I have no idea what this means. What game are you talking about.

As scum, he has left me in the game all the way through to the point where I finally dropped the last vestige of a scum read and called him all but confirmed town. Then I died.

I think he did the same to mara and engamed her.

[fferyllt]

aaah. missed a ton of posts due to new page.

[fferyllt]

I'd ask Saki but /ongoings and etc.

It was one they were in together, but Saki pegged him, but wasn't a threat, therefore he kept him alive.

You're talking about xenologue, and ffery was playing with me as a hydra there. Ffery, explain to the resident idiot the ACTUAL reasons we kept saki around plz.

If it's xenologue we kept Saki around because of all the town players remaining he was the most likely to contribute to a mislynch, either by being the guest of honor or by putting a quick vote down on town.

It worked.

[fferyllt]

The only problem I have with this as an argument is that you said you had a Cabd town read on day 1.

Yes now, would Scum-Cabd have killed me D1 if I didnt?

Why would he kill you for scumreading him?

Hint: As scum, he doesn't usually eliminate players who are scumreading him.

Well that's good to know as well, but that was my plan, which is why I WK'd the heck out of him D1.

Now if i'm not the cop, do you think I would come up with that gambit as VT, and that Cabd would have picked up on it believing I was the cop with an inno on him?
Do you think scum-Cabd would deceive me by picking up on said crumb and acting as if he had nothing to worry about because there was a cop inno on him?
Do you think scum-Cabd would have claimed Cop to protect me whom he thought was the real cop?

tbqh I wouldn't put any of this past scum-Cabd.

But, I don't believe VT you would have run this gambit. I just don't. I facepalmed because I thought your crumb was too blatant. So, I wasn't surprised when Cabd started acting conftown after that. All of both your shenanigans since then flow logically from your crumb. Even the shell games, which I tried not to jostle.

I watched the trajectory develop more or less in real time, and watched like a hawk for off notes.

[fferyllt]

My head hurts.

[fferyllt]

Ffery, sakuras last post is a scumclaim for her and cabd js

Pedit ninja

Shes,,not a VT but isnt a PR and didnt make the gambit on her own.

She's what I thought she is.

Not.

Lynching.

Her.

We are going to make scum work for this.

If I'm alive tomorrow I probably won't need to elaborate.

p-edit goddamnit Sakura.

[fferyllt]

I like your case Cabd.

How are you feeling about the fuzzybutternut rule?

[fferyllt]

That's a good thing. I'd be squinting pretty hard about now otherwise.

[fferyllt]

i suck at logic who is it?

Sakura I think.

[fferyllt]

The only problem I have with this as an argument is that you said you had a Cabd town read on day 1.

Yes now, would Scum-Cabd have killed me D1 if I didnt?

Why would he kill you for scumreading him?

Hint: As scum, he doesn't usually eliminate players who are scumreading him.

Well that's good to know as well, but that was my plan, which is why I WK'd the heck out of him D1.

Now if i'm not the cop, do you think I would come up with that gambit as VT, and that Cabd would have picked up on it believing I was the cop with an inno on him?
Do you think scum-Cabd would deceive me by picking up on said crumb and acting as if he had nothing to worry about because there was a cop inno on him?
Do you think scum-Cabd would have claimed Cop to protect me whom he thought was the real cop?

tbqh I wouldn't put any of this past scum-Cabd.

But, I don't believe VT you would have run this gambit. I just don't.

I facepalmed because I thought your crumb was too blatant. So, I wasn't surprised when Cabd started acting conftown after that. All of both your shenanigans since then flow logically from your crumb. Even the shell games, which I tried not to jostle.

I watched the trajectory develop more or less in real time, and watched like a hawk for off notes.

^^ lol

[fferyllt]

Why would I kill GM? She's not bothering me or anything... uh

What/who's NKA?

I am probably not going to be NK'd for not contributing very much. Yay.......................................................................... but then that would lead to people thinking I'm scum for not being Nk'd and for lurking, but what if the scum WANT me to be lynched because of that? Oh the chocolatey WIFOMness

Reads (I AM NEWB, SO THESE READS AREN'T GOOD. THEY BE MY FIRST EVER)
Town
agi

sakura for reasons to be withheld

Cabd
ns
bert ffery and kaze in no particular order
Null
NO SCUM READS SO FAR
Scum

I knew there was a post from earlier this week that snagged me. I dismissed this because of Sakura's crumbing extravaganza.

[fferyllt]

This is the most frustrating yet entertaining newbie I've been in

This game hasn't reached hyrule levels of wtf. Not yet anyway. That game was also massively impacted by replacements.

I totally agree re frustrating yet entertaining.

[fferyllt]

Mario is doing the "newbie who got a scum pm and got the fuck pegged out of them" dance, can we PLEASE lynch it now?

His only post was Friday night. He may have gone missing because weekend. I'll put my vote down tomorrow.

[fferyllt]

Is that L-1?

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Yeah let's just do this

Vote: Mario

Sorry Agi, more than likely you're dying tonight unless there's a doctor, It'd be nice if you give your reads and thoughts before day ends just in case.

This.

Intent to hammer

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lol I literally opened this thread planning to hammer.

Hi Wisdom.

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Not only Cabd knows better than the lot of you, but he had also posted a few times about how the doctor should/shouldn't claim. It makes absolutely no sense he'd want to lynch a possible doc slot like that.

Sometimes reads totally outweigh setup spec. It took me a hell of a while to get there regarding your slot, but I did get there.

I'm reviewing/rethinking.

[fferyllt]

Here you go, my last 2 posts about him.

I had niggles about Kaze on day 1, mostly related to hedgy stuff he posted but was leaning town.

I put Kaze on hold due to the replacement. In fact, I kinda put the game on hold waiting for the replacement

because Kaze is in the group I think I want to lynch from today

.

the group I think I want to lynch from today.

Which is?

The ones I need to sort are Kaze, agi102

and to a lesser extent bert and notsci. Three of those players gave me good reasons to think they're town on day 1. :/

[fferyllt]

@ffery
That doesn't sound like a scumread that would "outweigh setup spec", does it?

It wasn't at that point. Mario replacing in, making one post, disappearing, and then 3 days later replacing out was what did it for me.

[fferyllt]

So you're telling me that a newbie replacing out because the game is 54 pages is alignment indicative? So alignment indicative that you don't care you might be lynching a PR?

MY PR sensor is sometimes too sensitive, sometimes not. I thought I had spotted this game's PRs. The only problem was there was one too many of them, and I didn't know which one was a false positive. Kaze was not one of them.

[fferyllt]

What motive does town have to prhunt

To protect and deflect attention.

It's usually not hunting though in a game this size. I just see the behaviors sometimes.

win condition + role + objectives --> motivation --> in-thread behaviors.

If I were scum, agi102 would probably have died on night 1. With all the VT claims and offers to be lynched, I had him pegged as likely PR. On day 2 with all the crumbing and gambitting I reevaluated.

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@ffery
Does that mean you thought someone is a doctor?

Yeah I did. And I dropped a couple of megaton doc tells to draw attention my way.

[fferyllt]

And despite thinking we're in that setup you did not understand what Cabd was doing?

You think about it a minute and see if you can come up with reasons why I might not.

[fferyllt]

Then you're missing the obvious.

[fferyllt]

Who I thought was doc.

[fferyllt]

Then you should look at my iso and when I dropped doc tells.

[fferyllt]

The early ones:

Btw ffery you can tell me how you figured it out wheeeeenever you'd like.

Or don't. Meh

I don't think I should atm, tbh. Might accidentally telegraph something.

I agree that the time for sorting the gambits is tomorrow.

The big one:

Ffery, sakuras last post is a scumclaim for her and cabd js

Pedit ninja

Shes,,not a VT but isnt a PR and didnt make the gambit on her own.

She's what I thought she is.

Not.

Lynching.

Her.

We are going to make scum work for this.

If I'm alive tomorrow I probably won't need to elaborate.

p-edit goddamnit Sakura.

[fferyllt]

Who are the conf towns? I am lazy
More importantly, what if scum NKs one of these conf towns (which it probably will)?

You, me and Cabd (because of the gambit). ffery is a strong townread so I believe her claim for now.

ns, Bert and Wisdom are the ones that are still sort of in the "Let's sort out" kind of place.

I think you misunderstood me.

I'm not claiming.

[fferyllt]

Cabd, explain the "save her the replacement"-esque push on a possible doctor slot?

Unless that's a doctor claim, it can rightly and kindly go fuck off, because that slot's play has been really scummy and also,

I was under the impression sakura was doctor

once our little gambit fest was over and agi claimed cop.

I have no fucking idea how you could have gotten that from her play.

[fferyllt]

So he couldn't have known Sak wasn't a cop. ???

Sigh.
It's called "role

blocking

".

um no.

[fferyllt]

Oh wait, you're right. Getting this confused with the old setup.

[fferyllt]

We have 5 days. I am going to use at least a few more hours of that to re-ISO and let some thoughts percolate.

[fferyllt]

Can you share these thoughts with us?

Finding a vantage point that doesn't swirl with assorted conflicting forms of paranoia.

[fferyllt]

My browser crashed and I lost a huge fucking post.

I'll reconstruct/finish it in a while but suffice it to say that with a couple of notable exceptions Cabd has dumped a load of discredits onto most of the players in this game.

[fferyllt]

That said, this game is probably a scum win. Too many tunneling towns, and or players who are playing some sort of burden of proficiency with my scumgame shit.

I'm going to assume you couldn't type that with a straight face.

[fferyllt]

That said, this game is probably a scum win. Too many tunneling towns, and or players who are playing some sort of burden of proficiency with my scumgame shit.

I'm going to assume you couldn't type that with a straight face.

I dunno what you mean by that.

But yeah, calling scumwin. Like i said,

if

you're town you're not going to listen to me until i'm dead anyways ESPECIALLY after 165, so whatever.

"burden of proficiency with my scumgame".

[fferyllt]

NY165 is huge so I don't think anybody is going to actually read it. Sakura, Cabd was in the top tier of my townpile for most of three game days. Unquestionably town for most of that time. He wasn't town. Even after I started suspecting him - and I tracked him to a dead body on night 3 - I still waffled for the rest of my time in the game.

Excuse me if I don't totally buy in to your town read.

[fferyllt]

I can't even begin to tell you all the stuff he did that made me sure he was town during the first few days of that game.

I'm going to sleep on it, and then probably redo and finish that post I lost.

[fferyllt]

jesus christ.

[fferyllt]

Bert claimed VT.

I don't think notsci has claimed anything.

[fferyllt]

Repeat after me ffery: "If Cabd flips town I hereby swear I will not give wisdom a free pass in lylo"

Nobody gets a free pass.

[fferyllt]

ISO'd notsci. I don't see a claim.

Not voting with that outstanding.

[fferyllt]

I have no idea what you are doing with the self-hammer crap.

I'll hammer after notsci claims.

[fferyllt]

that or I'll vote Wisdom.

[fferyllt]

but I'm not expecting that to happen. notsci hasn't been playing like a PR.

I thought you were dropping PR tells interspersed with all that freaking gambiting.

[fferyllt]

You have no fucking idea how hard I've thought about this wagon.

The last time I thought this hard about a Cabd wagon it dissipated, and the fucking white mage double night protector was lynched instead.

[fferyllt]

And why do you want me to answer you if I'm scum anyways?

You know the answer to this.

I don't expect there will be much useful associative stuff, though.

[fferyllt]

Bert what's with the fencesitting? On one line you state you don't like Sakura's Cabd townread and in the other you say you don't like my claim. Clarify your stance.

pedit: I answered that already. Cabd is not an emotional player, the sole purpose is to appeal to Sakura who is an emotional player and flails similarly. Possibly to agi too, yes.

I'm pretty sure it's meant to shake me as well.

[fferyllt]

So ffery, what's the difference between town-flail and scum-flail? I've never quite understood how it's different or what you do to discern between the two... also, what do you think of Cabd's flailing thus far? Wisdom, you can answer too

My first impression is there's potential scum motivation as that kind of AtE (specifically, the style) is what superficially appeals to notscience, me, and Sakura (and agi102 who is new)

It's player specific. In general, scum focus on what's wrong with the argument being made. Town tend to get more self righteous because the thing that's wrong with the argument is that it's fundamentally wrong - they're town, not scum.

I feel like he's kind of mirroring back my flail in the paradox prime game, tbh. I expected to be lynched, was pissy about it, insulted players, especially players I thought were scum, and tried to stay focused on improving town's chances after my flip. I got myself into the situation where my lynch made sense, though, and I owned that. I wasn't lynched that day because of a Cabd gambit. He faked a cop innocent result on me.

Fatalism is a flaw in my game though. Not so much with Cabd. As town, when he does look toward being lynched IME he's seeing it as part of a strategy to win the game by eliminating an unknown that can't otherwise be clarified.

Chef mafia game, where he was lynched on day 3: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=30901 Town was in an autowin situation, though.

[fferyllt]

The odds of mislynching today and then lynching me tomorrow are non-zero and I don't like those odds.

Thought you said Wisdom was definitely scum. Also, how sure are you that ns is scum?

Easy, we lynch scum today and tomorrow wont be LYLO, lynching you would guarantee LYLO tomorrow tho.

If ns is scum, who's his partner?? Trying to see this from your POV.

Now I'm gonna go look back at Kaze's play with the PR claim out now.

Oh, wait, Ffery, you're the one who said that Kaze's play gave you no vibes of PR, and that your PR-dar is very sensitive. Weird...

Sometimes it is. Sometimes it's too sensitive and I get false positives. You probably remember that in my catch up in the mismatched game I totally missed Beast's PR slip.

In semi-open games, I usually do pretty well. All the gambiting in this game has thrown up a ton of dust.

[fferyllt]

Ffery, if Kaze did crumb Doc at all, then that makes me feel a tad bit better.

I haven't found a crumb, but I'm not that good at spotting crumbs. I see behaviors, usually, not crumbs. In the environment where I learned mafia nobody crumbed roles, and results crumbs were subtle.

Re-reading through his ISO, the thing that kinda stands out is that he looked confident when people suspected him, like he wasn't worried about being lynched. To me, that's a pretty strong PR tell. Also, post 649 in retrospect, blowing up about a premature VT claim could be PR-motivated.

[fferyllt]

All the gambiting in a game this size has been to the point of being detrimental. Even so, my bad for not seeing that attitude in Kaze' posts before. I was literally moments from hammering him when Wisdom replaced in. I want to blame Cabd for pushing to lynch and save mala looking for a replacement, but that was totally my decision and would totally have been my fault.

[fferyllt]

Bert what's with the fencesitting? On one line you state you don't like Sakura's Cabd townread and in the other you say you don't like my claim. Clarify your stance.

pedit: I answered that already. Cabd is not an emotional player, the sole purpose is to appeal to Sakura who is an emotional player and flails similarly. Possibly to agi too, yes.

Your claim makes me paranoid. It's hard to shake that off when Sakura just did that in her last game. Same play, same scenario. Can you see that from my POV?

Sorry about my stance not being clear. VOTE is going CABD's way. NOT moving, never ever ever ever

That emotional manipulation is just too blatant and I don't trust him with a ten-foot pole. Add onto that his play in this game I can't see as town. The gambit, the weird tension-filled "reads" on me.

BUT, there is a part inside me that is paranoid about this being one of those fake doc claims. Also, I do not have confidence in reading you. You skated by in 1402 during my one day there. Add to that the fact that I haven't liked Kaze at all since Day 1 and was on that wagon.

But there was no momentum on Cabd and I didn't think it possible to lynch him, what with Sakura's hard-defending, etc., etc. and them saying that the game is an auto-win as Cabd, Sakura, agi102 are conftown. That stuff resonantes with me still.

I *think* Cabd is scum. And I think the AtE is a load of bull and should be disregarded.

Ffery/cabd as a team? ffery/kaze? What throws me off is she has come in expressing willingness to hammer *both.* I have had Ffery as town but I've also been paranoid

because I haven't seen her as scum

and she has fooled Cabd several times before.

Wait, what is this shit? I replaced in to your scum team in Mismatched.

[fferyllt]

Ffery works better towards Cabd's philosophy

What does this mean?

[fferyllt]

Ffery works better towards Cabd's philosophy

What does this mean?

Don't bus unless you need to

There's a fundamental problem with applying this, but I can see the logic.

[fferyllt]

agi

Suspiciously sharp decision. But, there were essentially 3 players who hadn't explicitly or implicitly claimed vanilla at that point, so maybe not such a huge surprise.

[fferyllt]

Wait, ffery

What did you say about scum Cabd's NK philosophy?

Not to kill people who are suspicious of him.

[fferyllt]

You guys are giving me a headache. :/

In fact I think she would have hammered Cabd more easily if she was scum with Cabd.

That just clears the Cabd-ffery scumpair, and ffery-Anything other than Cabd pair.

What does this mean?

[fferyllt]

The only players I'm ruling out as scum at this point are Sakura and agi. It's a tangle from there. I'm worried that any associative stuff from Cabd is going to be pretty worthless. I'm trying to remember if there were useful associatives he put down in the perpetual mylo game. Sangres-me was dead on night 1. Nacho and I nailed 4/5 of the scum team in our reads lists, but it wasn't based on associations - just day 1 reads.

[fferyllt]

well ffery, the list is out there for you to use and type out the likelihood of each pairing then maybe we can nail down scum.

Yeah I read through it. But I won't have time to really hash it out until tonight.

[fferyllt]

Why the fuck did you self hammer today?

[fferyllt]

Are you really town?

[fferyllt]

Yep. Sorry to disappoint you.

If I was scum I would have hammered several pages ago.

I thought you were drawing this out, waiting for me to flip flop again.

[fferyllt]

Yep. Sorry to disappoint you.

If I was scum I would have hammered several pages ago.

I thought you were drawing this out, waiting for me to flip flop again.

You weren't going to flipflop after the trainwreck I put you through in 165.

You have no fucking idea. Last night I wanted to hammer just to get off the crazy train.

I said this at the start of the game. This is probably the game where you paranoia swings too far off the side and I get mislynched.

I didn't mislynch you. I can at least say that. But, I probably would have. I dunno.

[fferyllt]

Who are the scum team?

[fferyllt]

Also I never do sigbets and never have, never will.

I have a feeling I'm lynched tomorrow, but even if I'm not, I don't know if ns or ffery is scum.

Wisdom *might* be lying, but who knows

I'm gonna vote Wisdom tomorrow.

What's your logic for voting Wisdom?

[fferyllt]

I fucking hate LYLO.

[fferyllt]

If you're town, ffery,

this is your punishment

for letting paranoia cloud everything you do around me.

No, this is

your

punishment for making a project out of me in every game where you've been scum and I've been town. Perpetual MYLO possibly excepted, but I think that was mostly a case of you not having the time to really dig your claws in.

The paranoia is 100% justified. I'm not sure you can even call it paranoia.

[fferyllt]

If I'm not around tomorrow and Cabd is actually not trolling, Bert/ffery is my top guess. ns really does not look like scum.

Put some reasoning down with that.

[fferyllt]

I gave reasoning in my first reads. His play today didn't change anything.

The last 24 hours or so hasn't changed anything from your initial readthrough?

That's amazing.

[fferyllt]

Why would they change anything?

I still expect Cabd to flip scum, we're doomed if he's actually town.

Then you are the absolute worst at reading post-hammer sincerity or lack thereof. If Cabd's scum, then every word he's written since he hammered was an unnecessary risk.

[fferyllt]

It's enough WIFOM as it is, why would you need to do that?

To control the information. Sitting here shooting the shit during twilight is unscripted.

[fferyllt]

I'm gonna have to be a pedant.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4930757

Ineffective replaced into the game at 60-some pages at that point. He was town.

[fferyllt]

It's something to think about, but Amished is usually more about insulting or apologizing for the predecessor's play. In the game we played and I called you on it, you apologized.

[fferyllt]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31155

heh.

yeah that game kinda singed notsci's town meta.

[fferyllt]

Yeah you can. :/

[fferyllt]

I'm sorry Sakura.

And to rest who are paranoid about me, I really really let my personal IRL stuff get in the way at the end of D1, and I would never do that as scum. That's just out-of-bounds, and I was stressed IRL and sleep deprived that I let it drift into this game and saw myself freak out at being voted for. that's something I try to hone in, and I'd never do that as scum because to bring personal IRL issues in is just really dirty play and would make me feel dirty as heck.

Other than that, my play has sucked.

And I'm lost as to what to do because Ffery and notscience both seem town :/ And Wisdom seemed more town than Kaze, but after the flip Wisdom just looks really bad, plus the doctor claim has me really paranoid

since Kaze was scum

and ffery and notscience both seem town.

I calculated the odds if you don't lynch me tomorrow (if we get there) or today, and chance to win is (2/3) x (1/2) = (1/3) so the chance is still there, but look I wouldn't bring my friggin personal life into this, that's just way out of line for me as scum, this was a genuine freak out and that's all I wanted to say. I spent 48 hours thinking about what I wanted to say because this is a really dire situation

Bert

What?

[fferyllt]

Also, wisdom and notscience cruised to a perfect win in my newbie 1402.

Do you see similarities to their play in this game?

[fferyllt]

EBWOP: I wanted to get it off my chest and now it's gone.

Everything I've done is worth getting paranoid about, but the IRL personal stuff getting in is what I'd never do as scum, that would be too dirty and that's just out-of-bounds. And that is NOT a slip, btw.

I used to type really fast, Ffery, enter typing contests, that's a long story. That was a typo, Kaze was SUPER scummy.

Ok, so Kaze was scummy. The thing that makes me a little wary is that docs often do come off scummy, especially inexperienced docs. They actually have very similar objectives to scum in some ways. They are looking for town PRs so they can protect them. I didn't really get a pr-hunting vibe from Kaze though It was more of a hedgy vibe.

The first game I ever played as vig, I NKed the doc. on night 2. :/

[fferyllt]

Have you reread F16's meta analysis on me from the newbie game we recently played? He meta'd me to within an inch of my life in that game.

Here's a recent newbie scum game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29870

The rest of my recent scum games are hydra games, including all the completed Morph the Cat games.

[fferyllt]

Did you not trust my read on him?

I didn't. I felt like I have way more experience with Cabd-scum both playing against him as town and playing with him in the morph hydra. I thought you were being naive, especially on day 1 when you offered to be lynched instead.

I dunno. Maybe he's right that I was bound to eventually get him mislynched.

[fferyllt]

I'm too tired to figure this out tonight. :/

[fferyllt]

Bert I don't know how to apply Mismatched to this situation because you were in no danger of being bandwagoned on the final day when we were at 3-2. You were mostly townread by town players. Morph-me was far more likely to be wagoned.

[fferyllt]

Bert I don't know how to apply Mismatched to this situation because you were in no danger of being bandwagoned on the final day when we were at 3-2. You were mostly townread by town players. Morph-me was far more likely to be wagoned.

It's not me!!! Going after Cabd like that when he can read me so well. That's crazy!!!

I was in danger of being bandwagoned in Castle!!! Like I have never been actually lynched before as scum, and there's a reason for that. Also you know me you know I know what people claim and you know I like to go after PRs in games, then threats, GM would never ever ever ever go when she can't read me, doesn't know my game well, so on adn so forth, and CLAIMED VT first and foremost

Cabd would be gone before the time of day on Day 2, it's not even funny with all his notebook and stuff, and this is all WIFOM but I'm reaching out to YOU because I think you're town and the other two are bullscum and it doesn't matter what I do now but Iw ill go crazy

if you want me to go crazy I will go crazy, all for you darling!!!

And I'm using Mismatched as an example because I don't care if this is self-meta so go away notscience but seriously

SERIOUSLY making the first move in LYLO Nacho always taught me as scum is VERY VERY BAD AND LIKELY TO MAKE PEOPLE PARANOID

And yet I did it in a heartbeat in the heast of the moment

because the way Wisdom went after me REEKS OF SCUM

Oh god I hate LYLO.

This comes off so sincere. Bert if you are playing me with this you're going on my paranoia forever list with you-know-who.

[fferyllt]

I KNOW Wisdom is scum now since there's no hammer and ns and both you are here.

If you're town you know that. :/

Bert, you know that in Mismatched you and I passed up on the first opportunity to hammer VA, grabbed the towncred and waited for a point in the game where the town-on-town vote was likely to stay put for a while.

Why are you discounting that as a possibility here?

[fferyllt]

Meanwhile ffery is lurking around waiting for you to vote me

No, ffery is hating every minute of this, but I'm not going to be rushed into voting just hours after daybreak.

[fferyllt]

I'm bugged that you are pressuring people to put votes down so early.

Seriously bugged.

[fferyllt]

Thinking it's Wisdom, though. Less sure about which between Bert and notsci.

[fferyllt]

Oh so now it's wisdom, ffery? Do explain.

There's no flexibility at all in your stance, and that bothers me. You're not taking in the stuff that Bert posts. You're just reflecting it right back at him with "you're scum" stamped on it. notsci and I could be the scum team and you're not even entertaining that as a possibility, you're totally focused on Bert plus one of us, probably me.

I went back and reread day 1 of the perpetual mylo game when you were tunneling me. I dunno. It was the same vibe really. When you stopped tunneling us/sangres, it was like a switch had flipped. You went from all out tunneling to ok town with no transition at all.

And you were town in perpetual mylo. I couldn't see that. Nacho could, and I took his word for it eventually.

[fferyllt]

O hai I'm here. I've had perhaps a little bit of wine so don't expect deep discussion of mafia theory and incisive meta analysis or w/e. Sup?

[fferyllt]

I played the cash cabd game. I found his meta change pretty confusing. Wasn't scum reading him at all until I had to replace out. His reaction to GiF's vote on day 4 was really where the tide turned, though RT getting a cop inno on Beast set all that in motion.

A couple other players were suspicious of him from early on, though.

[fferyllt]

Well ffery, here's the deal, i think the team is notscience and wisdom.

Wisdom's been pushing the fact that him having a Doctor role pm would allow him to know there's a roleblocker, but obviously a scum role pm would allow him to know that there's not a Doctor and I doubt someone like Wisdom would have such an oversight, what do you think?

Do you think he'd expect nobody in this crowd to point up how scum could garner some of the same info that a cop would know via PM and matrix?

[fferyllt]

So yeah, I wanna lynch Wisdom and i think his partner is ns (he's also attempting to be manipulative) i'm just waiting for ffery to come here and give me her opinion.

the scenario holds together.

If we're wrong, though. game over.

I don't think I should vote tonight.

[fferyllt]

That's good because I almost changed my mind.

[fferyllt]

However I do agree that you shouldn't vote tonight.

Yup I agree. Sakura won't be here tomorrow most likely

He didnt claim cop to get towncred, he thought I was a cop with an inno on him,

yeah, it was just weird with how you said "innocent until proven guilty," that's all

I seriously seriously thought that was a tracker crumb. Because with 2 scum, a track neg result is not conclusive.

[fferyllt]

yeah me neither.

[fferyllt]

wasn't hard to find anyway.

was does prolific even mean.

It means you have played a bunch of games given how long you've been playing at MS.

[fferyllt]

1) I'm not trying to manipulate anyone, nice try.

2) Ffery, was I spammy in 1496? Yes or no.

3) I still think scum xvoted

You weren't spammy. But, looking just at your ISO I can see why someone might come away with that impression because of exactly what bert noticed - that your posts were curt and short. I think also the fact that you don't quote or otherwise link to what you are replying to makes your posts almost context free even when read in context.

I had to search this thread for the word "spammy" to figure out why you were asking me this question. Maybe it was the wine last night in this specific instance but I often have to scroll up or flip back a page or two in order to figure out what your posts are in reference to.

[fferyllt]

She is not taking stances and she is practically waiting for things to happen. Yesterday she let the day going on despite hinting that she agrees with the Cabd lynch, effectively encouraging it but she wasn't hammering. Today she is simply waiting for the quickhammer.

You're not my pick for scum #2. ffery is.

Hinting? Seriously?

[fferyllt]

She is not taking stances and she is practically waiting for things to happen. Yesterday she let the day going on despite hinting that she agrees with the Cabd lynch, effectively encouraging it but she wasn't hammering. Today she is simply waiting for the quickhammer.

You're not my pick for scum #2. ffery is.

Hinting? Seriously?

Are you saying it's not true? You kept leaving posts such as agreements to Cabd AtE'ing to appeal to people and even said that he does it to appeal to you.

I dithered like hell over whether Cabd was scum, but I didn't hint. I dunno. I would probably have voted him within a few hours of when he self-hammered.

[fferyllt]

Maybe "hint" is not the proper word, my point is that you encouraged his lynch without actually lynching him, which would earn you negative points.

This may be the most contorted FoS I've ever encountered.

[fferyllt]

I should count up the number of times I've had the hammer stolen from me. I should also count up the number of games where I hammered within 5 minutes of nightfall. It's an artifact of learning mafia in a plurality lynch environment, but I've been playing at MS for nearly a year and I am still pretty vote-averse.

[fferyllt]

Nope, that was showing how you're lurking, both today and yesterday.

Even right now, you're trying to make people think I am scum but you're not actually voting me. And your excuses are the same as yesterday - "omg Im not sure". Yesterday it was about you wanting to think again and again about whether Cabd is scum (yet you never gave us any conclusion), and today you're all "i hate lylo" and "i cant decide" while at the same time showing clearly that its me you want lynched.

Your motive in both cases is to get the votes on the person you want lynched.

I'm not voting you because I want to talk with Sakura about 2nd scum. That's the main reason why I didn't vote last night, though as I think I indicated, I had reached a decision. You've convinced me that you are scum, even more than the arguments that she's put forth. Your posts reveal your motivations pretty clearly.

If I'm right (and I feel damn sure I am right), then I want her thoughts on bert and notsci before we end this day. If I'm wrong, then notsci will hammer and it's game over.

[fferyllt]

ISO'd notsci. I don't see a claim.

Not voting with that outstanding.

So Wisdom, I wanted notsci to claim. If my choice hadn't come down to Cabd unless you were caught lying, who was I "not voting" here?

[fferyllt]

Your posts reveal your motivations pretty clearly.

Oh really? And which posts are those exactly? What are my motivations?

To spread wifom and try to give your partner (probably notsci, but there's a chance Bert's pulling one over on me) another viable mislynch target for tomorrow.

[fferyllt]

That happened AFTER I claimed.

Your refusal in 1450 and the posts after was BEFORE I had claimed anything.

I am totally not seeing your point here.

[fferyllt]

Your posts reveal your motivations pretty clearly.

Oh really? And which posts are those exactly? What are my motivations?

To spread wifom and try to give your partner (probably notsci, but there's a chance Bert's pulling one over on me) another viable mislynch target for tomorrow.

No, show me exactly which posts of mine have that intention and how you recognised that specific motivation over me trying to figure out who is scum.

Starting with 1968, pretty much every post you've made. I essentially affirmed in 1932 that I'll vote you today. That's the motivation for your attack. I doubt you think you'll actually get a wagon going on me today, but it's all good wifom for day 4.

I feel relieved and a lot more confident there will be a tomorrow thanks to your attack, though!

[fferyllt]

I am awake now and just had lunch yay me who wants to talk about foodies

actually no, back to the game.

BOOM BOOM POWA

Speaking of motivations, Wisdom is reminding me of how advertisers try to get people in the long run to buy their shit. Well, I don't buy his shit right now. And I ain't gonna. Lalalalala

lalalalalala that's me with my ears wifom wifom wifom repeat after me lol

Ffery I'm more worried about you being scum over notscience (But it's strictly paranoia, I do think notscience is scum).

so since my mind is clear and headache hasn't approached yet what would you all like to ask me right now <3

I feel like there will be a tomorrow, but I'm not looking forward to it. If you're town, you won't be the only one dragging around tons of paranoia.

[fferyllt]

Your posts reveal your motivations pretty clearly.

Oh really? And which posts are those exactly? What are my motivations?

To spread wifom and try to give your partner (probably notsci, but there's a chance Bert's pulling one over on me) another viable mislynch target for tomorrow.

No, show me exactly which posts of mine have that intention and how you recognised that specific motivation over me trying to figure out who is scum.

Starting with 1968, pretty much every post you've made. I essentially affirmed in 1932 that I'll vote you today. That's the motivation for your attack. I doubt you think you'll actually get a wagon going on me today, but it's all good wifom for day 4.

I feel relieved and a lot more confident there will be a tomorrow thanks to your attack, though!

Bullshit, you're unable to explain your switch. You just randomly point at me with generic reasons such as "omg your scum motivation is so obvious but i cant explain why" and bet on the fact Sakura doesn't like me. Those reasons you're making up would only make sense if you knew I am scum. They don't make sense for town who try to understand who is town and who is scum.

Why would I get a wagon on you when your buddy has obvscummed? You're so caught that you don't even think before you post.

There's lots of stuff.

Before Cabd's flip, I went through Kaze's ISO basically looking for reasons to think you weren't lying for doc, when I should have been doing the exact opposite. On reread, there's really nothing in Kaze's posts that point to being a PR much less being doc, and his posts were more than hedgy enough for concern. I should have fucking hammered when I meant to.

Then there's your attack on Cabd. You make noises about how most of town thought he was scum, but you very opportunistically turned 2nd tier suspicions on him into a bandwagon, and then basically nailed the coffin shut with your claim. Sakura is absolutely right that scum would know if there's a doc in this setup once agi claimed doc.

And now, when you know that your lynch is all but sealed with my intent, you switch tactics from ending the game today to positioning your team for tomorrow. Your play has been way too tactical for it to be coming from a town-trying-to-figure-things-out perspective.

[fferyllt]

Not to mention, it makes literally no sense that I would wait till I was out of danger to claim doctor as opposed to doing it right away to escape the lynch. But no, somehow I did that to "nail the coffin shut". Bullshit, you both are trying desperately to tie some sort of scum motivation to my actions.

Why claim if you can sway the lynch off you without claiming? You didn't have to claim in order to dismantle you wagon. You had to claim in order to rush Cabd's lynch through.

[fferyllt]

Hey ffery, tell me this;

You're claiming you're completely sure I'm scum and that you're not voting me because you want to talk with Sakura first.

Given Sakura will have to hammer me anyway for the lynch to go through, which means that you will get to talk with her anyway, why are you hesitating to vote me now?


Could it possibly be because notscience not hammering me will further confirm you are Bert's buddy?

Because notsci could hammer before she returns to the thread. I thought I already said that. Or you could self-hammer in order to make sure that convo doesn't happen.

[fferyllt]

Not to mention, it makes literally no sense that I would wait till I was out of danger to claim doctor as opposed to doing it right away to escape the lynch. But no, somehow I did that to "nail the coffin shut". Bullshit, you both are trying desperately to tie some sort of scum motivation to my actions.

Why claim if you can sway the lynch off you without claiming? You didn't have to claim in order to dismantle you wagon. You had to claim in order to rush Cabd's lynch through.

What reason did I have to rush it? I was already out of danger and the Cabd lynch would go through anyway. I didn't have any reason to claim. The only explanation is that I actually am the doctor, and had enough of agi's and Sakura's stupidity not figuring it out on their own.

Because that wagon could have collapsed, too. And the more time for things to settle, the more likely a collapse was to happen.

I'm going to be afk for a few hours. Will try to keep up by phone but phoneposting is a pain.

Sakura, mostly I want to hear your thoughts about who is Wisdom's likely partner. I'm pretty satisfied he's scum at this point.

[fferyllt]

Sakura, mostly I want to hear your thoughts about who is Wisdom's likely partner. I'm pretty satisfied he's scum at this point.

For the love of god don't make me doubt myself again.

She's literally said this for the past two days, why the feigned scumhunting?

Wisdom put down a ton of new posts today. I don't like them, but I'm the focus of them and of course won't like them.

I want Sakura's opinion about where those posts suggest to look tomorrow. Whichever of you are town, the behaviors are pretty similar because at this point town and scum motivation are similar. Survival is winning. Bert and Wisdom have been under pressure. You, not so much.

[fferyllt]

Whichever of you are town

Wait, what?

You. Bert. At least one of you are town.

Unless Wisdom is town.

[fferyllt]

That doesn't make a lot of sense.

[fferyllt]

I've never read your wiki before. Your win rate is pretty wow.

[fferyllt]

This sounds like sincere demotivation. I don't think demotivation is alignment indicative, though. :/

I'm a sucker for sincerity.

[fferyllt]

It's reminding me of the Rapture large theme game. I knew I'd be in lylo that game because I was so mislynchable. I knew it was coming from like day 1.

[fferyllt]

Your friends list?

[fferyllt]

Ffery and sakura I guess since there's paranoia about me

try to get me to type things that are harder to talk about, harder to emulate

harder for me to just type up if I'm scum

if that helps any

And Wisdom as town is probably no better than Cabd at reading me (heck Cabd keeps a notebook), so Wisdom being so sure about me in LYLO was a huge red flag - it was like a barrage of attacks and so I get so sure about him being scum and then I vote him, that's what happened

Even Nacho has trouble reading me, so Wisdom with that conviction when I have been quite transparent (including freakouts that heck brought IRL in which never happens)

that boggles me, I expect some paranoia, not just going from Bert's likely scum to BERT'S SCUM!

tbh I'm worried I underestimate you.

[fferyllt]

Everybody is talking about my scum game behind my back. :/

There are a lot of differences between my town game and my scum game. I think the main one that people pick up on, whether they recognize that's the difference or not is that my town game tends to be more emotional and waffly under pressure.

[fferyllt]

^that was at Ffery. and by transparent I mean she seems super town. Meh. But fuzzybutternut used to have this rule in this newbie I saw when I first came to this site, that the super-town townread in LYLO, sometimes more often than not that super universal townread might be scum. Not sure how much that rule applies, but i remember that rule gave me the heebie jeebies when I started playing in newbies.

I think in most game formats, I'd be dead or there would be a no-kill night by now given how I've played, unless it looked like I was certain to mislynch at LYLO. Newbies are different because of the semi-open format and the constraints that scum operate under. I make it to LYLO in newbie games more frequently than any other format. I should play them more often for the LYLO practice I guess.

[fferyllt]

If it's any consolation all I've heard is the lurking bit.

Lurking is probably more fixable than the other stuff that's wrong with my scum game. And it's usually relative. In the Open game Sakura is talking about, GiF and I hard-core lurked though. There was one game day where we didn't even post. That was an SoS game.

[fferyllt]

Revising

Gonna leave this here for now, Bolding Wisdom as he's my major scumread.

ffery-notscience

: Impossible because no quickhammer.

ffery-Bert

: This doesn't look like ffery's scum meta

ffery-

Wisdom

: This doesn't look like ffery's scum meta.

Bert-

Wisdom

: Quite possible, considering what I know of Wisdom.
Bert-notscience: This one makes sense actually...

notscience-

Wisdom

: I was going with this, but ns' demotivation looks genuine, and I doubt scum Wisdom wouldn't have given him a plan for D3.

Going to be honest... Wisdom's reaction to Bert's vote on him have Scum written over it, if he was really town I'd expect him to react something like "WTF ARE YOU DOING IF YOU'RE TOWN GET YOUR VOTE OFF ME BEFORE SOMEONE HAMMERS" but he went and assumed Bert was scum and OMGUS'd immediately.

You are in a unique-ish position to do this, and I am really glad you're doing it. There's no question about your motivation.

Bert-Wisdom - only if they are crossvoting with the idea that the one who doesn't get lynched should sail through day 4. To me, this would be high risk/high reward stuff. I can see Wisdom maybe taking such a strategy, but not Bert from what I know of his scum game, which is admittedly not much. Newbie 1429 I think is the only time I played with scum-Bert. He replaced into GiF's slot. I was townreading GiF and never re-evaluated during the short period of time we were both in the game.

notsci-Wisdom - Wisdom has notsci in what amounts to a null spot in his reads list, which is troubling. notsci hasn't posted or really even implied a seriatim list, which is also troubling. The thing that gives me pause about this, like I said, is that notsci's attitude today resonates. But, it could be completely sincere and coming from demotivated scum rather than demotivated town.

notsci-Bert - This is the possibility that scares the fuck out of me. I can read Bert's recent posts to notsci as coaching in a way, but really as long as nothing upsets today's apple cart Wisdom is getting lynched and if these two are scum then it's gg. But I can't really give this pairing credence. Except there's a lack of spark to their interactions today. I'm going to double-iso them and see what I get from earlier in the game.

[fferyllt]

Heh. I just realized I did the same thing I called Bert out for - not thinking about the game where we were scum together. That game, the "high risk" stuff he did was a day 1 quickhammer mostly, which his town play gives him plenty of room to do when he's scum. He wasn't the strongest townread of all the players, but he was well within that group for the most part. I think I remember Mara asking him if he was scum once on day 1.

[fferyllt]

ffery, what are the chances in your opinion, that Wisdom and Bert are both scum?

P-Edit: I thought the one who initiated the snap out was me btw, Bert continued coz I went off to play some Terraria.

I want to say very little chance. But, I'm afraid to dismiss the possibility.

You need to look at 1429. It was a town circular firing squad, basically and Bert kinda floated through it mostly via his back and forth with Nacho.

[fferyllt]

I saw scum Wis in one Newbie game, he was scum with Jason and they crossbused.

Besides I know cross busing can throw town off, which is why I did it on that Open game, it doesnt help achieve a perfect win, but it throws people off when trying to find your partner.

1402 he voted me out of the gate.

But, here's my thing.

I've townread ffery all game. Cabd's townread ffery all game. You've townread ffery all game.

GM scumread her.

Now, there's no reason for scum-bert to try and snap me out.

But, I know Wis's history as scum.

heh. I've been waiting for someone to post this. "Why did GM die?"

[fferyllt]

Meh, bert was actively trying to get me back in the game. With me as isolated as I was, I wasn't a threat.

Pedit- Ffery, I've already referenced it. Cabd automatically dismissed it as a frame. Too scum to be scum?

Not the sort of target scum-me shoots for. I would have been shooting at PR possibilities. We undid GM's wagon mostly because she claimed VT.

[fferyllt]

I think the thing that probably most characterizes my scum game is that I don't expect to get to endgame, and I put more thought and effort into the NKs and into setting up my partner(s) situations to improve their chances.

[fferyllt]

But, scum you+kaze?

Why would a combo of bert+kaze want to kill GM?

I don't remember GM going after kaze. She had Cabd and me as scum after TSO, didn't she? The person I remember most going after Kaze on day 1 was Bert.

[fferyllt]

That's not what I asked. You said you were a fan of NKA. I'm asking you how a combination of Bert+Kaze makes sense killing GM.

I wasn't answering that question. I was actually kinda musing about how I would have played this game as scum to the extent I can put my head into that space. I don't think it's helpful though, because I don't think there is anyone left in the game who plays scum the way I would.

[fferyllt]

The GM kill looked newb, careless or designed for misdirection/lack of information.

notsci, who chose Dessew for the n1 kill in cash cabd?

[fferyllt]

We all did, in conjunction.

What was the rationale?

[fferyllt]

Bert, in 1496 we killed someone because they were low information.

Ffery's tryin to imply that's what I'm doing here.

Ffery, do I always do as such? Or, does my scumgame adapt?

As far as I can recall, that's the only game I've played with scum-you.

I'm thinking about it because you brought up the GM kill.

If Wisdom is scum, and I still think he is, I'm curious why Kaze didn't want Bert dead. Maybe he thought a Bert kill would point back at him?

[fferyllt]

Ffery, I'm not really a threat as town to get NKed, and at the end of the day I was going after people like Cabd and TSO.

Plus, Kaze tried to buddy me during those interactions saying that I'm his/her only scumread, which weirded me out. Also, I claimed VT at the end of Day 1 too, like GM.

Only townread you mean?

[fferyllt]

Most of all, Ffery you were saying Kaze's game was evolving and only hedging bothered you enough to avoid having Kaze listed as a solid townread.

No one else really was putting any kinda suspicion on Kaze other than me.

That's true. he kinda inherited the newbtown vibe we had for gravija when he replaced in.

[fferyllt]

Ffery fits the bill.

Wisdom
Ffery
Bert
Sakura
Me

If you are town.

If it doesn't end today.

Then think on this pretty hard.

[fferyllt]

Because I sure will be.

[fferyllt]

Also note that ffery not doing trajectory analysis so far has been bothering me.

I do it explicitly more in large games or in games where I replace in with 10-15 pages because it helps me figure out what happened prior to my joining or when the stance movements are super complex. That's not been the case in this game, though. The biggest perturbation in the game was Wisdom's replace in, and the impact that had on the wagons was pretty blatant. I'll lay it out, though and we'll see if something jumps out.

[fferyllt]

Gravija/Kaze day 1.

gravija voted agi during RVS. He moved to TSO here. I assumed this was more RVS because of the timeframe, but he defended the vote like it was serious when notsci questioned him about the timing. And continued to defend it. This earnestness about the vote was part of what made me think newbtown.

56 - he votes agi again because of agi's defensiveness. irony. In 58 he FoSes notsci. He appears to get angry and then votes notsci a few posts later. The super-touchiness also struck me as newb. He switches back to agi a few posts later because he finds agi annoying.

Then he stops moving his vote around and interacts more, interspersed with spells of inactivity.

In post 226 he sheeps Bert onto Cabd. Then when Sakura calls him on this and offers to be the lynch instead, he votes her in 228

This is his last vote before being replaced.

He's on the volatile end of newb behavior. Although he disappeared a couple of times, I wouldn't characterize his play as lurky.

Looking back with the hindsight of his successors in that slot, the reasons for voting are mostly weak and reactive, but it's really not something that stands out as scummy in the context of newb play. Damn it. If he's scum he played really well here as a newb.

Kaze's catch-up post was eye-glazing and in some ways weak looking. He voted TSO at the end of it, though I think he commented more about Cabd. In his wall of links, he made a lot of comments about notsci being town. And he showed a trajectory in catch-up on Bert moving to town.

-- So gravija tangled with ns and at one point voted him. Kaze townread him. IME newbs tend not to engage their scum partners. Kaze isn't exactly a newb, and I am not sure if he'd townread his partner that strongly.

312 he comments that he's sharing the TSO wagon with a scum read (Cabd) and a null read (agi). this post struck me as townie at the time.

After this there's a lot of eye-glazing over all the meta. He townreads Sakura for her fatalism. He townreads GM for not liking Sakura's lurkiness. Then there's a long strand of interaction with Bert, who's suspicious of him.

Starting around 469 he starts to go after notsci over his meta change, and the change being "selective", e.g., tunneling still a feature.

571 shows a trajectory breakdown maybe. He's indicating that Cabd's earlier dismissive post is not alignment indicative. At the end of the post he unvotes TSO and expresses interest in voting Cabd, but once again takes exception to who else is on that wagon.

525 is interesting. He indicates he took his vote off TSO mostly to avoid a derphammer, but is deciding where to move it next. No indication that his read on TSO actually changed. In 542 he moves it back to TSO.

At this point, Cabd is back from jury duty. Kaze interacts with him a bit, asks about Cabd snark in 597, gripes about meta. I particularly liked post 609. He wasn't avoiding the noisy, assertive players in this game.

646, 649 reaction to Bert, especially to the VT claim, which I thought could be a PR tell when I skimmed his ISO looking for anything like a doc crumb. 651 - I thought this was goodposting, calling Bert out for the Cabd->TSO->GM trajectory in a short burst of posts.

657 - this sort of post I just never really grasp. I'm usually a wreck at this point of a game day. I see this from town as often as scum, though.

773 he's changed his mind about Cabd and says he's seeing the posts during the run-up to lynch as genuine.

Going back through this, I see why I wasn't scumreading Kaze. There are wobbles, but some of his posts just really strike me as town, and some take stances on players that would suck to retract later - specifically notsci early on, and I like his trajectory toward a null read of notsci as the day progressed. And his read-change on Cabd because he was expressing doubts about his scumread of Cabd at a time in the game where I was getting Cabd townvibes as well.

The main thing that looks weird is that he was apparently deciding where to move his vote when he took it off TSO, though his read didn't change. This is somewhat mitigated by his return to the TSO wagon shortly after.

[fferyllt]

Now, time to look at the timing of Ffery's "signaling intent" to hammer Kaze and what transpired then. I remember vaguely her saying "I was about to hammer" shortly after when Wisdom came in as a replacement.

It was before he replaced in. Later, I opened the thread to vote Kaze and found the announcement about Wisdom.

[fferyllt]

Although I had Kaze as null/town for most of day 1, at the end of that day when GM claimed VT and started looking town, when Cabd basically offered to be lynched so I'd stfu and move on with the game, I had Kaze as possible scum. I kinda lost track of that after Wisdom's replace-in. And Cabd argued pretty convincingly that it made sense just to remove the slot from the game given how long it had been inactive. I was ready to hammer on that basis.

This would be a very different game if I had. :/

I'm working on day 2 Kaze/Wisdom now.

[fferyllt]

Kaze/Wisdom - Day 2

813 - his first post is kinda meh. I actually pay a lot of attention to the first posts of day 2 because I find they sometimes reveal quite a lot. This post, coming after the discussion of the night kill was well underway looks weak. There was stuff to respond to. His next post, if anything is worse (from my offsite perspective) because he indicates the NKA is WIFOM. I realize site meta seriously downplays night kill analysis but I don't think I'll ever really buy into that.

From there he moves on to more complaints about meta, mostly directed at Bert.

829 in response to Bert is pretty non-responsive.

832 felt like town-frustration over not being able to dig in to the game.

At the time I thought this was a valid complaint because this game sometimes resembled the Star Trek TNG episode with the alien spacegoers whose language consisted of metaphors. "Dharmak and Jelad, at Tenagra! "Morph and Sakura in Xenologue!"

More go-round with bert and then several pages without an appearance after Cabd called him and bert on role fishing after the sakura/Cabd crumb-mania in 874

Roughly 8 pages later, he posts one last time to request replacement. And that was a site-wide replace-out.

There's a long gap with a newbie replacement who couldn't cut the thread's length and density.

Then Wisdom replaces in.

1355 Wisdom's reads of the non-conftown, he says ns is his strongest read. His complaint about my intent to hammer in his catch up post actually fits a doc claim :/

1360 he has Bert as the more likely partner of scum-Cabd.

What follows is a whole lot of tunneling on Cabd. I'm not going to go through that in detail. I'm more interested in what he says about other players on day 2. He constantly pushes Sakura's Cabd read and says Cabd is AtEing and manipulating her.

1524 he says that scum-me would have hammered Cabd. 1635, 1639 basically work from the me-scum premise and is pretty much classic tunneling because there is no action that would result in a "town-me" read. My only question is whether this is town-tunneling or scum-tunneling.

1688 - bert/ffery team, and ns looks town.

1748 is jawdropping. "You could have tried harder to convince me." The sheer egotism and refusal to accept responsibility for his part in the mislynch is mindblowing. Is this coming from a town mindset?

His play on day 2, though horrible in results really leaves me a lot more unsure about his alignment than day 3 has. It reminds me of his tunneling the me/nacho hydra in the MYLO game. In that game, we managed to do something that changed his mind - we both wrote huge walls worth of reads.

[fferyllt]

On the other hand, ffery did join the counterwagon Bert created (goodmorning), but hesitated and didn't do it instantly (see 419). Now this is a subtle way to join a wagon without the fear of getting linked to the one who started it, yet still participating in pushing it.

I am deliberative about voting. Period. Regardless of alignment. In fact, I probably hesitate more as town because when I'm scum any uncertainty I'm displaying is likely fake.

This tendency gets either magnified or overridden when I hydra, depending on my partner.

More trajectories coming later today.

[fferyllt]

I couldn't care less about your excuses. The point is the VCA points to you being his buddy more than ns.

The point is incorrect. And, I've told you why.

[fferyllt]

I need to get stuck in traffic more often. Epiphany.

Wisdom's play has stopped making any sense from a town perspective and makes total sense from a scum perspective. The change happened when I said I intend to vote him. I pointed this out already, but the ramifications didn't really sink in.

1. He's not pushing for a Bert lynch at all any more

2. He's not yelling that town will lose if he's lynched.

3. His focus over the last 24 hours or so has been all about tomorrow when if he's town his priority HAS TO BE TODAY because if he's lynched there IS no tomorrow.

Ergo, he's positioning his team for a second day of LYLO.

Failing traffic jams, maybe getting reasonable sleep would help with epiphanies. :/

[fferyllt]

3. His focus over the last 24 hours or so has been all about tomorrow when if he's town his priority HAS TO BE TODAY because if he's lynched there IS no tomorrow.

When the hell did I even talk about tomorrow? If you're gonna lie, at least make it less obvious.

Focusing exclusively on partner-hunting when you are likelier to get lynched than the guy you have your vote on IS focusing on tomorrow.

[fferyllt]

Sakura and ffery (and ns), anyone want to ask me questions?

I'm working on these Crucial Conversations Journals due tomorrow and those are giving me headaches and I'm taking breaks between each chapter

In between working on rl stuff, I'm going through your trajectories now. Will probably have a post for you in an hour or so.

[fferyllt]

cliche's posts gave a newbtown feel but there's nothing really notable about them so I'll move straight to bert.

Spoiler: Bert Day 1

205 naked Cabd vote, explained in 207 as sheeping notsci. So, he's townreading notsci by implication.

244 backing up notsci about Cabd's chameleon scum game, and supports where his vote is.

246 this is sort of a strange question - asking why the timing of initial reads lists, but the paranoia it implies struck me as town on day 1.

249 another Cabd hit "is there such a thing as town-cabd. He's questioning my concerns that Sakura was reading Cabd as town almost instantly but there's potentially a sort of implicit encouragement to suspect Cabd.

252 Here, I felt like genuine concern about how to read Cabd was showing.

329, 330 This is a sort of reads list revision. He's basically got a question mark by every player.

331 this post bugged me when I initially read it, and it still kinda bugs me. He's got Cabd at best as null, and he's asking Cabd to sort me for him. He explains in 335 that he doesn't like Cabd's null read of me at that point.

339 he's now leaning town on Cabd based on gut feel of recent posts. This was when Cabd became active again after jury duty.

340 GM, Sakura now scumpile because Cabd moved up.

343 Unvotes Cabd.

346 Appears to be a fos over Cabd having trouble reading notsci.

349 asks me about Cabd's trajectory.

357 revotes Cabd. In next post, FoSes GM.

371 Reaches out to Sakura about her suspicions, and asks her to explain her Cabd read again. This post feels like town trying to work with town. Just a couple posts earlier he told Sakura that her fatalistic posts looked scummy. In the context of this reach out, that earlier posts feels more like at "stahp that" than a FoS. 375 confirms it, townreading Sakura. All of this interaction feels town.

After this, he drops Cabd and moves on to GM. 412 he asks about GM's TSO read, and then in the next post votes her.

The helter skelter nature of Bert's read changes is bewildering at times, but he always has at least some hint as to why either immediately before or immediately after the votes/unvotes.

420 Another reads list. Has GM and Kaze in his scumpile and Sakura now moved to town. Reason for scumreading Kaze is his posts have caution and lack of passion. Cabd and TSO are confused reads.

421TSO more likely scum than Cabd because he's being too nice.

423Asserts the GM read is his own and not affected by Sakura.

429Claims earlier play was sheeping due to lack of time, now caught up and has own opinions.

437 advances ffery/cabd scum theory. I loled.

438 thru 440 good interaction with his scum read, Kaze, but not a lot of teeth in it. This exchange made me remember that a lot of the goofing around I associate with Bert's game never really happened in this game.

444 push back at notsci about revoting Cabd.

455And...there's some of that goofing, the dance is with TSO.

457, 459 and in a few earlier posts as well, Bert pushes notsci to provide reads other than his constant push to get votes on Cabd. Note to self, pay attention to this in the notsci readthru.

463 Seems to be focusing on a logic fail by notsci, but doesn't really do anything with it.

468 draws a comparison between notsci meta and cabd meta. sort of.

475 Now TSO is more likey town than Cabd, and he's looking at Cabd, GM as a scum team.

479 The intimidation factor post. This post was a long fuse. It prompted me to go back and look at Cabd's interactions with other players on day 2. I mentioned that there were a LOT of dismissive posts.

483 A TSO fos

486 GM/Cabd scum team

493 Reads update, TSO wagon bothers him.

The sheer number of stance changes is amazing. In Newbie 1415 he settled on me as scum and wasn't budged by anything, including the F-16 meta case for town-me. But, that was a case of town bert and a ton of paranoia because I reached out/buddied thinking we'd be able to work together if he was town.

499 asks me about Kaze and indicates he's leaning a little more town now.

502 pushing TSO about early scumreads.

508 another reads list and considering lynching Cabd.

521 explanation of notsci townread. "He may be mimicking his town "crazy" vibe, who knows - I don't know how good he is at doing that...because in the scumgame he was in where I was town, he wasn't this tunnely and boisterous and nonsensical. Someone earlier in this game said that he has mentioned that he would like to meta-dodge..." but concludes this looks like his town game.

629 Reaction to Cabd's scumreading him. Next post he asks if it's a reaction test. He votes Cabd.

632 This post came off really genuinely frustrated about the scumread, and the next post was a vote. 636 invokes the Dixon Hill game and Tammy's reaction to Majiffy's vote. 637 more of the same. 640 expects to be a flash wagon while he's afk, leaves his reads list. This also comes off genuine. Switches to TSO.

647 claims VT. He votes GM. He had Kaze/TSO as scum in his last readslist ON THE SAME PAGE and he votes GM. Rereading this it stands out, though it's in the middle of him townflailing all over the place. :/

738 self meta about flipping out as town before.

759 paranoia about Cabd's demand that he be the lynch if TSO claimed PR. 765 he votes Cabd.

778 apparently game-transcending level of offence taken about one of Cabd's posts.

782 votes TSO, L-1.

That's day 1. This is huge so I'm going to spoiler it. This is far from every post, but it's still a ton of posts with votes, FoSes, reads lists, reversals changes of direction. It's almost like brownian movement, but it's not completely random. I can see this play coming from scum motivation, but over and over again, Bert posts something that feels like it has to come from a town perspective.

I'm going to wait until after I read notsci's trajectory before I call this town or scum. :/

I don't know if I have the time/energy to go through Day 2 today also. This took hours.

[fferyllt]

20 - this looks like the first serious vote (actually the first serious vote in the game I think. He pursues gravija, who also treated the vote seriously. This should have gotten the game out of RVS but maybe due to all the replacements needed, it took a while for everyone to get serious. posts 21-28 are further pursuit if gravija ending in a comment that the scumteam was gravija/agi. Pretty sure this was more or less joking.

48, 51 57 - townreading agi and reaching out to GM for confirmation.

59, 62 - this is notsci's half of a convo with gravija who is now scumreading him. This looks really confident and like he's humoring gravija.

67 TSO vote, followed by declaration that the scumteam is tso/sakura. 79 is the reasons:

Okay.

Sakura has been known to self-vote and in some instances self-hammer as town. She plays with people like myself and Saki who have selfvoted on several occurences. She calls a selfvote a scumclaim regardless.

TSO is basically saying "I won't vote you unless you seem popular"

After this there's a fair bit of tunneling. I'm not going to link to it all.

159 is a gravija fos. May be the only real gravija fos in the game?

176 asks Cabd and me to join the TSO wagon. Bitches at Cabd for questioning without putting a vote behind it. Votes Cabd in 184. Tries to get a 1v1 going.

209 now the scum team is TSO/Cabd.

211 asserts that Cabd has the same reads, but is nullreading him.

213 challenges Cabd about "you've seen my scumgame" because meta chameleon.

217 back to TSO/Sakura scum team.

222 annoyed at TSO for taking credit for his Cabd/Sakura team.

The changes are dizzying, and the reasons are hard to follow because posting style. But, the huge difference that stands out is that every change is assertive and stated with apparent conviction. It's really hard to say that there's sincerity behind it, but the level of confidence gives a sincere impression.

250 -asks me about the 'buddying attempt' when Cabd and I simultaneously replaced in. The timing was intentional.

259 - cases are hard for me.

286 - argues that serious Sakura is scum Sakura (AtE = town?)

Right about here I decided notsci was town on day 1.

364 acceptable lynches are TSO, Cabd, Sakura

395 rejects Sakura's offer to be the lynch "I'd rather lynch a scumfuck" than lynch so she doesn't have to read. This feels like he's changing his read.

461 reads list. sort of sketchy, but TSO/Cabd. Sakura read has developed.

496 CAPSLOCK tunneling. Feels townish. In my experience he doesn't attack this way as scum.

573 The case on TSO at this point seems as much about stealing notsci's sakura/cabd scumreads as about TSO being scum. This looked/looks dumb. But, it looks town. :/

675 rejects GM wagon that I was about to argue for, wants to lynch TSO.

751 this post looks so fucking town. wouldn't be back online to move the vote, asking where "we" want his vote. I mean I can see the scum motivation for letting town have control of the vote when (as it turned out) all the possible wagons were on town. But still. So town looking.

755 votes Cabd, which made that alternative viable, but didn't want to hammer TSO since he hadn't claimed.

You know, everything else, town as it looks, I can see coming from scum. But post 755 just looks like good town tactics from any direction I can come up with.

[fferyllt]

Spoiler: Day 2 VCA

Page 32

Cabd

:
ffery:
Bert:
Wisdom:

agi102

:

Sakura

:
notscience:

Not Voting:

Cabd

, ffery, Bert, Wisdom,

agi102

,

Sakura

, notscience

Page 33 (Unchanged)

Cabd

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Wisdom:

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Sakura

:
notscience:

Not Voting:

Cabd

, ffery, Bert, Wisdom,

agi102

,

Sakura

, notscience

Page 34

Cabd

:
ffery:
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agi102

:

Sakura

:
notscience:

Not Voting:

Cabd

, ffery, Wisdom,

agi102

,

Sakura

, notscience

Page 35 (Unchanged)

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agi102

:

Sakura

:
notscience:

Not Voting:

Cabd

, ffery, Wisdom,

agi102

,

Sakura

, notscience

Page 36 (Unchanged)

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Wisdom: Bert (1)

agi102

:

Sakura

:
notscience:

Not Voting:

Cabd

, ffery, Wisdom,

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,

Sakura

, notscience

Page 37

Cabd

: notscience (1)
ffery:
Bert:
Wisdom: Bert (1)

agi102

:

Sakura

(1)

Sakura

:
notscience:

Not Voting:

Cabd

, ffery, Wisdom,

agi102

Page 38

Cabd

: notscience (1)
ffery:
Bert:
Wisdom:

agi102

:

Sakura

(1)

Sakura

:
notscience: Bert (1)

Not Voting:

Cabd

, ffery, Wisdom,

agi102

Sudden vote to ns? Seems like opportunistically jumping on scumbud because he's not in any immediate danger right after ffery's thoughts. Regardless of ns' alignment tho, it felt bad.

Page 39 (Unchanged)

Cabd: notscience (1)
ffery:
Bert:
Wisdom:

agi102

:

Sakura

(1)

Sakura

:
notscience: Bert (1)

Not Voting:

Cabd

, ffery, Wisdom,

agi102

Quite odd to see nothing change despite the sudden revelation.

Page 40 (Unchanged)

Cabd: notscience (1)
ffery:
Bert:
Wisdom:

agi102

:

Sakura

(1)

Sakura

:
notscience: Bert (1)

Not Voting:

Cabd

, ffery, Wisdom,

agi102

Like, I honestly thought she/he was a neighborizer after Day 1. I'm that bad. And yeah, no motivation here for Cabd to lie.

That does save me from my Cabd paranoia and Sakura paranoia.

Dunno if a bit quick to judge or honest thoughts.

Page 41

Cabd

: notscience (1)
ffery:
Bert:
Wisdom:

agi102

:

Sakura

(1)

Sakura

:
notscience: Bert,

Cabd

(2)

Not Voting: ffery, Wisdom,

agi102

Page 42

Cabd

: notscience (1)
ffery:
Bert:
Wisdom:

agi102

:

Sakura

:
notscience: Bert,

Cabd

(2)

Not Voting: ffery, Wisdom,

agi102

,

Sakura

Page 43

Cabd

: notscience (1)
ffery:
Bert:
Wisdom:

agi102

:

Sakura

:
notscience: Bert (1)

Not Voting: ffery, Wisdom,

agi102

,

Sakura

,

Cabd

Page 44

Cabd

: notscience (1)
ffery:
Bert:
Wisdom: Bert (1)

agi102

:

Sakura

:
notscience:

Not Voting: ffery, Wisdom,

agi102

,

Sakura

,

Cabd

Bert jumps on Kaze (Wisdom) when he asks to replace out. It's interesting, because he also doesn't show signs of worrying about a possible Doctor yet Wisdom's calling that out on ffery, selective scumhunting much?

Page 45 (Unchanged)

Cabd

: notscience (1)
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agi102

:

Sakura

:
notscience:

Not Voting: ffery, Wisdom,

agi102

,

Sakura

,

Cabd

Bert still hangs to his vote on Wisdom, yet no one else is voting...

Page 46 (Unchanged)

Cabd

: notscience (1)
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Bert:
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agi102

:

Sakura

:
notscience:

Not Voting: ffery, Wisdom,

agi102

,

Sakura

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Page 47 (Unchanged)

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agi102

:

Sakura

:
notscience:

Not Voting: ffery, Wisdom,

agi102

,

Sakura

,

Cabd

At this point ns gives case on Cabd no one cares about it yet.

Page 48

Cabd

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agi102

:

Sakura

:
notscience:

Sakura

(1)

Not Voting: ffery, Wisdom,

agi102

,

Cabd

Page 49

Cabd

: notscience, (1)
ffery:
Bert:
Wisdom: Bert,

Cabd

(2)

agi102

:

Sakura

:
notscience:

Sakura

(1)

Not Voting: ffery, Wisdom,

agi102

Cabd enters the wagon.

Page 50

Cabd

: notscience (1)
ffery:
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Wisdom: Bert,

Cabd

(2)

agi102

:

Sakura

:
notscience:

Sakura

(1)

Not Voting: ffery, Wisdom,

agi102

To Note: ffery likes Cabd's case on scum Wis

Page 51 (Unchanged)

Cabd

: notscience (1)
ffery:
Bert:
Wisdom: Bert,

Cabd

(2)

agi102

:

Sakura

:
notscience:

Sakura

(1)

Not Voting: ffery, Wisdom,

agi102

Important: Mario comes in, does nothing and replaces out, almost every time i replace a newbie in a newbie game I get a scum role PM, additionally Mario never mentioned being a Doc, if Mario was a real Doc he would've fought hard against his lynch instead of replacing out.

Page 52 (Unchanged)

Cabd

: notscience (1)
ffery:
Bert:
Wisdom: Bert,

Cabd

(2)

agi102

:

Sakura

:
notscience:

Sakura

(1)

Not Voting: ffery, Wisdom,

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Page 53

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Sakura

:
notscience:

Sakura

,

Cabd

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Not Voting: ffery, Wisdom,

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Page 54

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ffery:
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Wisdom: Bert,

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,

Sakura

(3)

ffery

agi102

:

Sakura

:
notscience:

Not Voting: ffery, Wisdom,

agi102

To Note: ffery has an intent to hammer on Wisdom's slot so i put it as italics

Page 55

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: notscience, Wisdom, Bert (3)
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Bert:
Wisdom:

Cabd

,

Sakura

(2)

agi102

:

Sakura

:
notscience:

Not Voting: ffery,

agi102

Wisdom replaces in, he's at L-1 with intent to hammer, no claim, even after supposedly reading. Bert happily sheeps.

Page 56 (Unchanged)

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ffery:
Bert:
Wisdom:

Cabd

,

Sakura

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agi102

:

Sakura

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Not Voting: ffery,

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Page 57 (Unchanged)

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Bert:
Wisdom:

Cabd

,

Sakura

(2)

agi102

:

Sakura

:
notscience:

Not Voting: ffery,

agi102

Wisdom: Starts to soft claim, a real doc would have claimed at L-1 with intent not way later.

Page 58 (Unchanged)

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ffery:
Bert:
Wisdom:

Cabd

,

Sakura

(2)

agi102

:

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Not Voting: ffery,

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Page 59 (Unchanged)

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Cabd

,

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(2)

agi102

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Not Voting: ffery,

agi102

Oh look Wisdom finally said he's doc, he's been building up to it to make it more believable, once again if he was a real doc he would've claimed as he re-read.

Page 60 (Unchanged)

Cabd

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Bert:
Wisdom:

Cabd

,

Sakura

(2)

agi102

:

Sakura

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Not Voting: ffery,

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Page 61 (Unchanged)

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Not Voting: ffery,

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Page 62

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Page 63 (Unchanged)

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(1)

Not Voting: ffery,

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Page 64 (Unchanged)

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(1)

agi102

:

Sakura

:
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Sakura

(1)

Not Voting: ffery,

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Page 65 (Unchanged)

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(1)

agi102

:

Sakura

:
notscience:

Sakura

(1)

Not Voting: ffery,

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Page 66 (LYNCH!)

Cabd

: notscience, Wisdom, Bert,

Cabd

(4)
ffery:
Bert:
Wisdom:

agi102

:

Sakura

:
notscience:

Sakura

(1)

Not Voting: ffery,

agi102

Unfortunately Self-hammers dont help much when analyzing through VCA...

I think I've nailed it, it's Wisdom-Bert, but i'll wait on ffery's trajectory analysis first.

Read what I have so far and tell me what you think.

I won't be able to fine tooth comb Bert and notsci's day 2 posts until tomorrow.


They have really different styles as town, and I feel like in fundamental ways both have played their town games. Bert is probably better at simulating his town game. I have recent notsci-scum experiential meta, along with having read a couple of his newbie scum games over the last few months. His game has changed, intentionally, but there is some stuff that's really hard to change, and with him I think the super-aggressive play is not something he emulates well.

Do you know of games where he did play super aggressively as scum?

[fferyllt]

I can't quote now, but ffery

Your memory of 1415 is wrong, I voted JKLM as Jason and you and flip flopped at least 3 times

No one's here...so zzzz time for 9:30 class

Whichever one of you is scum, I have not given up yet

Yeah, you're right. I was focused on that point where you decided I was scum. I know your vote was fluid at first, but then you settled on me and that was it.

[fferyllt]

It stuck to Jason for a few days, actually, then JKLM for a day ish, then you for the remaining few days. I recall thinking a different person was scum for 3 nights in a row.

Just like tonight I think it's you not ns after he stepped up his engagement.

That kind of flip flopping is hard for me to emulate

See 1429 for example

I recall thinking that too. My first case on Jason was correct, though. My reads just fell apart as my lynch became inevitable. It's not the first time that's happened. It's something I guess I need more practice at. Thing is, I don't

want

more practice being mislynched.

[fferyllt]

I meta'd Castle mafia for this game because Cabd was being a dick. And I mostly watched 1429 in real time. Those two games are pretty different, though.

Maybe meta'ing some more of your and notsci's games should be where I put my focus.

[fferyllt]

If you're not scum with wisdom, why are you having so much trouble seeing me as town?

Paranoia?? It's a head scratcher.

Or is it notscience playing very well, too well to be scum?

When I stepped up my scumgame, people didn't see it coming.

The thing that's making me crazy is that I can see you both as town.

One of you isn't.

Do you have any completed games where the VCA pointed to scum when you were town?

[fferyllt]

This is making me feel sick.

I hate lylo.

[fferyllt]

My meta dives are nothing like falcon's. I don't know how people find time to do such exhaustive meta analysis. I look at tone, and stuff I think of as textual body language when I look at cold meta.

[fferyllt]

I was mislynched in the Rapture LYLO. The other townie voted me and I wasn't sure she was scum, so didn't cross-vote. kept rereading the thread and trying to work it out, hoping the other player was town, or I could find an argument that would convince the player voting me.

I was hammered, of course. I think that was the only time I've been mislynched at LYLO.

[fferyllt]

Wait I lost with nacho in micro 213 nightless in LYLO

Now that game I went crazy ate

So yeah you could look at that short scumhunter speed game

I got lynched in LYLO there... Pushed a town lynch

Didn't budge... Yeah

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=30600


Read through it. You seemed to be on your own mostly on the last day, or at least when you were being run up?

[fferyllt]

Yes. I wanted to give up in 213, much like I feel now

I actually told Nacho I would avoid posting in LYLO but I couldn't help but post rather than watch us get run up slowly

My worst fear is apathy which I displayed as town in 1402 and 522. I got mauled there

You covered the want to give up feelings well, then. Reading through it cold, I thought you were fighting and arguing all the way. Reading your posts in ISO, I couldn't pick out the spot where your day 3 wagon started to build. Externally, you came off pretty confident.

[fferyllt]

Can we just get this LyLo over with by lynching Wisdom.

PEd: I feel as if you were waiting for me.

Yeah, I think we've done what we can as far as prep if there's a tomorrow.

VOTE: Wisdom

[fferyllt]

Hey Ffery, please let us talk a lot tomorrow OK (if you're town?)

I know I'm probably the likeliest to die tomorrow, but give me a chance, use up all the time is all I wanna say

I'm pretty clueless about which one of you is scum, but every day I lean towards someone different :/

Heh. You think I'll suddenly develop quick-vote syndrome just for this game?

[fferyllt]

notsci and Bert deserve the win, then.

[fferyllt]

Talking about wifom.

[fferyllt]

Sakura you feel sure it's not notsci?

[fferyllt]

Ok. I got a lot of town motivation out his day 1, even on reread. But, his day 1 in cash cabd also convinced me. He had really only one bobble in that game before PoE started pointing to him.

[fferyllt]

Ok. I got a lot of town motivation out his day 1, even on reread. But, his day 1 in cash cabd also convinced me. He had really only one bobble in that game before PoE started pointing to him.

What is this supposed to mean? That Day 1 in Cash Cabd convinced you that notsci isn't scum?

No, I'm saying that his scum game was hard to spot in that game, his day 1 was really good. I don't trust my day 1 read all that much right now.

[fferyllt]

Yeah, my town style doesn't transfer at all.

The trajectory analysis argument pisses me off a little because I don't always do explicit trajectory analysis in games. This game is pretty much terrible for it. You and notsci typically have scattershot trajectories that are by nature inconsistent.

[fferyllt]

Oh, I thought you only skimmed the ISO of that game. Bad memory my bad.

Notty and I's styles have lots of differences, but in a way

his style is very transferable to either alignment, much like mine is, I don't know if that makes any sense.

in that we both can get away with things due to doing silly things as town, but as scum it's painful to cringe at having to emulate the scummy things you do as town, if that makes sense

I guess what I'm trying to say is you can emulate it to a point, but like Nacho likes to say, there's a natural passion that you can't always emulate well at times

/rant over

GiF and I hydra'd in that game. I was Sound of Silence.

[fferyllt]

I

really

fucking

hate

lylo

This.

I've spent the last 2 days having flashbacks to the raptured lylo and going back and forth a million times on you guys.

[fferyllt]

I'm gonna use up the duration of this LYLO deadline thing.

So, put on your seat belts, for this will be a long ride unless you choose to end my journey early.

Love, Bert

So are you planning to use it up by not posting?

[fferyllt]

No you all sound like a woman robot

I'm almost scared to try this, but I would like to see what I'd glean.

I get a lot of tone-based reads from text - from the word choice and from the apparent cadence of the posts - how I think the player would have said the words. There's also a fair bit of "body language" to how posts are written.

Strip that away, and I'm really not sure how I'd interpret either contextual or ISO views of a thread.

[fferyllt]

I want to know why you didn't answer me clearly about whether Kaze is scum or town when I asked you. Reading back, I've been looking at things and you have a scum-meta for "saying things without actually talking about the elephant in the room," apparently. So I want you to answer that. I am repeating myself, I know.

All I remember about that post is that his meta was on my mind because I was trying to firm up a read. IIRC you asked me about it and I told you that the main thing that bugged me about him at that point was the waffley and hedgy stuff.

I have a habit with meta analysis (and with ISOs, but to a lesser extent) of posting my observations without much interpretation/conclusion, to see what echoes I get back from other players. The exception is when I replace in to games that have a significant number of pages already, where I add commentary because there's an onus to catch up and to also put enough of my thought process into the game that people can read me. But even in that context, I get "yeah, but what do you think it

means

" feedback.

Anyway, my initial answer wound up being meta-based because that's where my head was at.

Vote: NotSci

[fferyllt]

I've been listening to this tune all game.



It pretty much sums up how I feel right now.

gg Bert, notsci. I think every scum game, I feel like I'm on the outside looking in at the team I was supposed to be on.

[fferyllt]

It

was

an intense game. From an external PoV I don't know that I played all that well, but I did for the most part do something I've been trying to do for a while, which is play a scum game while staying within the behavioral space of my town game.

It's not a good strategy given the direction my town game has been taking. Probably not a good strategy at all.

[fferyllt]

You played really well, Sakura. Especially day 3. I could tell you were playing out the rope.

[fferyllt]

That wasn't a scum slip. It was a scum claim.

(it was intentional)

[fferyllt]

I followed this game. It was fun reading. Excellent play by ffery/Wisdom for turning it around when it looked like Wisdom's slot was being lynched. Bert, I was sold that you were town and was rooting for you throughout the game.

You guys who can read bunches of games you don't play kinda scare me. I feel like I've lost the info war before the game even starts.

It's kind of encouraging me to rely less on meta and work on other parts of my game. Though I still often find good stuff in the meta pile.

[fferyllt]

Vaguely curious as to why I was killed.

Also vaguely grateful, I probably would have done a murder if I'd had to sit through another 80+ page Newbie.

It was mostly just to have a crazy-looking kill night 1. I was worried that hitting a PR on night 1 would point directly at me because Cabd knows that I can PR hunt pretty hard especially in a small game. I didn't expect to make it to endgame, so I was ok with it if the kill did point in my direction, but I thought it was audacious enough that it wouldn't fit my meta very well.

I really needed Cabd in the game longer than day 2 :/

I've never really understood his reasoning for keeping people who are suspicious of him in the game as long as he does, but I think this situation was somewhat similar. I needed a town antagonist because that was how I entered the game. With him gone, my day 3 play pretty much died on the vine.

[fferyllt]

Great play by ffery tho, you had me fooled until somewhere in the middle of D3, that's when i had my suspicions on you, i tried to pretend i was suspecting Bert instead and was obvtowning you as i was doing before

so you'd probably leave me alive and then i could vote you in 3p LyLo,

but I realized that plan was silly and laid it out before thread lock.

I seriously thought about doing this, but decided I'd done enough crazy things for one game.

If it's ok with Wisdom (and Kaze) I'll post the Scum QT.

[fferyllt]

It's hard to live when you're a claimed cop and knowledge that there's no doctor by the scum.

On the other hand tho, your constant lurking led to you getting voted and having to claim... dont do that again in future games.

It was town who pressured him, and that was pretty terrible given his crumb.

I guess that's one of the lessons of mafia. Scum will notice crumbs, especially investigative crumbs, unless they are pretty subtle.

As a town PR crumbing, I know mine tend toward the too-subtle. There's a happy medium somewhere.

[fferyllt]

Also it's kinda hard to hate LyLo when everytime you're scum it's part of your wincon to at least experience LyLo, specially if you're going for a flawless victory.

I've replaced into newbie slots and noticed they are scum slots far too many times and i'm already used to it, as Town tho... it can get pretty nerve-wracking, however as Thor said in another game i played some time ago "It's better to start getting used to LyLo than freaking out every single time you're in one"

lylo is a lot easier for scum IMO. You have one objective - get somebody else lynched.

As town, you have to worry about being the mislynch, and mislynching another town and that makes it harder to focus on finding scum.

The one lylo I felt like I did pretty well as town in, I replaced in after my slot had already conftowned by not hammering. I just had to figure out which of the other two players was scum without worrying about getting mislynched.

[fferyllt]

Thanks for replacing in Wisdom! It was a tough spot and you manage a day 2 turnaround that I couldn't even imagine at that point.

This game was a ton of theater. There has to be an easier way to be scum.

[fferyllt]

Was there a dead qt?

[fferyllt]

I figured it was going to be a dead qt full of people who had figured out who the scum team was either just before day-end thread closure or just after. It was one of those games that felt like a race to limit information.

[fferyllt]

Wisdom was obvious scum after d2.

In fairness, I doubt anyone in this whole game would have pegged you, ffery.

Also I laughed when you typed out reasoning and then scumhammered. Cautious to the last.

I wrote up about 5 paragraphs and was steaming out the excess. Hit preview. Saw vote. Thought about deleting it all and just voting, but was in a hurry so typed out the vote and hit submit.

I guess the caution was in how I was going to answer that question. To me, the real zinger was in the observation about the elephant in the room, which sounded like something Nacho would say about my scumplay. I answered that, then decided to steam it out.