Marketplace Mafia III - Game Over

[zMuffinMan]

which stuff?

i've played with nero a few times before (a couple years back) but it has nothing to do with why i think he's scum here.

[zMuffinMan]

1) OMGUS-ing is not and will never be a scumtell, and 2) Nero has been attacking you, Voided, and Mhork for a really long time. Never mind that I don't think we've ever been a town read of his (at the very least, I remember we weren't in his list of six yesterday).

(1) OK. i don't think it is, either, but the only scum reads he has are people voting him, and i honestly don't think he's that bad at this game that he really believes what he's saying about this
(2) yes, and he started attacking ALL of them after they started attacking him. trust me, i've been keeping track. the first mention of mhork being scum after not wanting to lynch him D1 is after mhork voted him, his first mention of me being scum is after i voted him, and i'm pretty sure it's the same for the voided read, too (i don't 100% remember which happened first here since voided's walls are a blur).

do you honestly think these are genuine thought processes coming from a town player?

If I weren't so lazy I could quote you where my cases are called shitty all the time. Its a really lazy point to begin with but you thinking that's a scumtell, much less a scumtell for me, is pants on head.

it isn't about the quality of your case, it's about how it was dismantled at the end of D1 and you still pushing it when it was nonsensical.

Other than arguing with me, what would you claim your in game contributions are?

i don't think i've spent that much time arguing with you (proportionate to how much i've actually posted). how many of my posts have you read?

The rest of the scum is in my null pile

you have like 7? names in your null pile. i'm asking you to be more specific here. D3, 100+ pages. shouldn't be that hard.

Its rather ironic that in that game Monkeyscum got lynched for pretending to have not played with me and now Muffinscum is getting lynched for lying about not having played with me recently.

cute

[zMuffinMan]

that would be nice

[zMuffinMan]

iirc, 1395 was more a snide retaliation to whichever nero post before that he said something about me and 1531 wasn't a meta-based assessment. i rarely make meta-based assessments in that manner.

[zMuffinMan]

Does anyone think Kingdom is town and if so why?

zdenek

that's about it, really

[zMuffinMan]

Argh, shut the actual fuck up. What's the actual point in these kinds of comments? Your posts are fucking full of little bullshit responses like these. You're just stirring shit and making your posts fucking unreadable.

this is the main issue i've had with voided for most of the game. lots of the questions he's asking / statements he's making are either out of place or just plain pointless. but i'm beginning to think this is just a playstyle thing more than an alignment thing.

i'm having second thoughts about voided atm. i don't really see voided-scum making sense as a DP partner - some people are saying his vote looked like a bus, but i don't see it. and i don't see him going, "yeah, i'm really just voting him out of self-preservation" as scum - that sounded more like something i'd expect voided to be saying truthfully as town.

when i have time (prob tomorrow night), i'll go over his ISO and sort this read properly.

People who questioned whether Mhork was gambiting on Tammy are bad.

i didn't think he was faking it. i did suggest someone ask a question towards the end of the day to verify everything mhork's been communicating is actually what pyro is saying, but i care less about that now that i'm reading the stuff mhork is communicating. it doesn't look like he's making it up.

[zMuffinMan]

proddodge
too tired to read anything, prob won't be around much in the next 48ish hours

[zMuffinMan]

proddodge catching up in a bit

[zMuffinMan]

You lied by omission?

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

if you're going to call it a lie by omission, don't fucking cut the quote right there,

mid-sentence

,

mid-paragraph

.

D1 your arguments for thinking harakiri was scum were bad (and i broke these down towards the end of D1) and apart from the harakiri read, i don't remember any contributions from you D1 worth noting. D2 was much of the same

like, really, how fucking dishonest can you get, cutting the quote at the exact point you did?

you pushed the harakiri lynch D1, i specifically asked you about the reasons for it at the end of D1 and told you why they were all shit and you still pushed it D2. this is one reason why your reads are fake. it's not about how bad your reasons were, it's about how static you were in this read, and how your other reads are based almost entirely on which players are attacking you.

I don't remember pushing for a Natihanna lynch past day 1

i didn't say you pushed their lynch? you pushed the idea they were scum, though, for the same reasons as you did D1, despite not having good reasons D1, and being told those reasons weren't good and why, etc.

but that brings up an interesting point. you were so confident in your harakiri read D1 and you dropped going after their lynch altogether in favour of mhork, who you didn't want to lynch D1. was that just because you didn't like the way mhork voted you?

[zMuffinMan]

To be honest guys, I think I'm on borrowed time here. I fully expect to be mislynched/shoot before lylo [though I shouldn't since I'm town] but my money + voice + vote is useful and IMM it makes no sense whatever to get rid of those things but w/e.

who says this?

exactly

[zMuffinMan]

He never made the argument that he forgot so why do you think he forgot?

were you actually pushing that as a real argument?

iirc, i actually remembered you were gollum shortly after i posted whichever post it was that i said i hadn't played with you in a couple years, but i didn't feel it was worth correcting because it didn't matter and none of my arguments have a meta basis.

but do go on and tell me why you think i would feign ignorance about that as scum.

i need a good laugh. i've had a long week.

[zMuffinMan]

gonna go over voided's ISO when i finish catching up in all my games

in the mean time, here's something to think about

Spoiler:

LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO LYNCH NERO

[zMuffinMan]

Here's muffin saying that my case on Hara is scummy.

that's not what that quote says at all, rofl

I also asked Muffin for his scum reads outside of me

you didn't ask me for that, but even if you did i probably wouldn't have given you an answer. i'm in the process of resorting the reads i'm less confident about.

[zMuffinMan]

The short version is that I'm paranoid of him, because some of the aggression and condescension in his pushes seems overblown

*shrug* nero voted me for not remembering a game i played with him. i originally thought he was joking but his responses to gp suggest he was serious about it. try to respond to someone like that without being condescending. if anything, i think i've showed great restraint.

[zMuffinMan]

Shouldn't you wait to hear what I was going to say before defending yourself from it, Muffin?

no? if you weren't referring to the nero stuff, then i dunno what you were referring to, and if you were referring to the nero stuff, then you should read nero's posts and try to keep a straight face.

[zMuffinMan]

voided's ISO makes my eyes glaze over, but i don't currently think voided is scum. even apart from the fact that there are elements of voided's ISO that look town, i don't like the wagon on him at the moment. particularly this section of the wagon: {ProHawk, Nero Cain, Seanald} - i doubt all three of these players are scum, but i'd almost be willing to bet money on there being two scum in those names.

i still like the nero wagon. i feel if nero were actually town here, there wouldn't be so much resistance to his lynch. not to mention the only question mark player on the nero wagon for me is voided, and if nero really were town and voided was scum, i imagine scum would be all over the nero wagon as a counter-wagon. instead you have a few of the scummier players in the game on the voided wagon.

i think there's scum among the players pushing the idea that this is nero's "town meta" and ignoring all the fucking signs that point to nero scum. nobody is even really addressing the fact that his reads are static (they don't change based on new information, there's no semblance of trying to figure out the game in the way he's formed his reads), and the only strong scum reads he currently has are the people who are attacking him... not to mention the weird angles like trying to push the idea i'm scum for not remembering a game we played together or blatantly quote-mining.

so in a hypothetical situation where we lynch voided today and he flips town, where's the scum in these names?

VoidedMafia (6): 1baldeagle1, uʍop ǝpısdn, ProHawk, Nero Cain, Seanald, pieguyn

[zMuffinMan]

you think if voided is town, seanald is the only scum on the voided wagon?

[zMuffinMan]

how much of the game have you actually read, espeonage?

[zMuffinMan]

Why does it matter how many are on or off? Sounds too hypothetical to me with the what if question.

because i want to hear opinions on it now, before scum have had an entire night phase to decide how they're going to approach the game tomorrow. and i want to get people thinking about this wagon, because i think there's a decent chance it's going to result in a mislynch.

it's no more hypothetical than anything you said prior to the hermy/dr pepper lynches.

[zMuffinMan]

evidence for you talking about hypotheticals? iirc you mentioned everyone was allowing scum to rush a lynch and then voted seanald on the basis of him going for an easy lynch. i'm far too tired to actually find this right now. maybe i'm misremembering.

[zMuffinMan]

heh

i actually think seanald could just be dumb-town

[zMuffinMan]

i know. i'll be around for a little while. i'll prob put him at L-1 before i sleep, but i don't have any strong feelings about it being a scum lynch.

maybe if i wish very, very hard a nero lynch can still happen

[zMuffinMan]

I'm just skimming through these last few pages. Seanald's an idiot, but that doesn't mean he's scum.

basically my thoughts

but no other lynch is likely to happen at this point, so

Do you really think that he wouldn't know how much money he currently has if he was town?

if you look at him as being derpy enough to claim the amount he had after action submission rather than the amount he had at the end of the night, it adds up. in such a way that he would have had $0 after N1 and $0 after N2 action submissions.

[zMuffinMan]

even if the numbers weren't right, he'd probably double-check everything as scum before claiming it.

he got the numbers right, though. sorta

-5, -25 n0 = 70
+14 end of n0 = 84
+50 d1 = 134
-14, -120 n1 = 0
+108 end of n1 = 108
+75 d2 = 183
-25, -40, -38, -80 n2 = 0 <- everything is right to this point, if we assume he derped and left out...

+12, +34 end of n2 = 48 (which he corrected eventually)

*shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

In that case though, why are you still pushing it if that has been said already?

the million-dollar question

anyway, i'm going to sleep and prob won't be around again til deadline. someone else can hammer, i guess

[zMuffinMan]

there's no way in hell thinking Seanald was derptown to the point of not voting him came from a town thought process.

my read on seanald had nothing to do with why i didn't vote him. the reason i didn't vote him is because i was going to sleep, there were multiple people posting, and baldeagle had claimed intent to hammer (as well as saying he'd be around til the deadline). i figured, fuck it, someone else will hammer, i don't need to.

i said i'd put him at l-1 before i went to sleep, but prohawk had already put him at l-1, and someone else had claimed intent to hammer, so no reason to cut discussion short.

Mainly that he was hounding a wagon that was in full swing already, it was as if he wanted the lynch to be closed out asap before it got derailed.

is this referring to me complaining about the voided wagon?

Not to mention he wasn't in the best of positions on wagons so far this game

lol

but rather than waiting to see if he'd go for it, I figured it'd be better to just out it immediately cause I wasn't sure when he'd be online and I don't feel like waiting

yeah, well, you're a derp and i don't give two shits whether you think i'm scum. you're naive and clueless if you really believe there weren't scum eagerly jumping on the seanald lynch. iirc, outside of PV and prohawk and maybe a couple others i forget, no one showed interest in getting a seanald wagon going D3, prior to the last 24 hours before the deadline. if he was really that fucking scummy, and that was such a town-driven wagon, it wouldn't have taken 13 fucking days days to happen.

which players in particular do you think are scum defending Nero by calling this his town meta?

outside of perhaps prohawk, i'm not too sure. that was more based on the general feeling i was getting about the opposition to wagoning nero and not based on any particular players. it felt like someone mentioned nero's town meta and then too many people were like, "yeah totes, nero yells as town!" and superficial bullshit like that without even looking at the arguments for nero being scum or arguing against those arguments, or anything.

Still?

still what?

[zMuffinMan]

No that was you asking questions with no possible town answer to Nero just as he his wagon hit tipping point.

which questions? or which posts are you referring to?

And are you really going to be that dismissive at this point in the game?

yes. when you come up with a semi-legitimate reason for your read on me, get back to me. until then, lol

People haven't been the most liberal with town reads on you. That usually points to issues in your play.

which "people"? all the dead townies (bar hermy) had town reads on me. i don't really care about a few players scum reading me.

if you think i'm scum, try to get me lynched. i'm interested in seeing who joins you and why.

[zMuffinMan]

Page 100 would be a start.

be specific. which of those questions was impossible for nero to give a "town answer" to?

Define semi-legitimate

having an actual reason, to begin with

[zMuffinMan]

by point, you're referring to individual responses right? the first response in 2498 wasn't even a point against him. which part of the second response goes for many slots? third response is questioning who he thinks is scum outside of the people voting him.

2509 was a joke, lol. even nero understood that.

where are the impossible-to-give-a-town-response-to questions you're referring to?

[zMuffinMan]

If everything I'm saying is as flimsy as your saying, why do you care?

because it's possible you're bullshitting your read on me and the fact you can't come up with anything to actually reinforce the statements you're making about me only supports this

can't produce the kinds of read lists that you seemed to expect of your suspects yesterday

lol. that's blatantly

not

what i was asking of nero (i was questioning why he only suspects the people voting him after he'd already given his reads list).

i have a list of people i think are town and don't want to touch (mhork, LB, PV, pieguy, GP, harakiri, upsidedown). but outside of that, my reads are in flux so *shrug*. i still think nero and prohawk are scum. i started suspecting KA towards the end of yesterday for the way he pushed seanald on the financial stuff and how passive he's been playing outside of that. bbmolla is probably scum, but i don't have any strong feelings about this outside of poe + haven't seen much that makes me think town. then there's a group of players i'm not really sure about.

You accuse me of static reads but when my reads change its also scummy?

no, the point was that your reads

outside

of the people attacking you are static. i already know how much your read changed on the players attacking you after they started attacking you.

the thing that pinged me the most was actually you staying off his wagon

*shrug* i stated intent to put him at L-1 before i went to sleep, someone else put him at L-1, someone else claimed intent to hammer. there was no reason for me to cut off discussion.

[zMuffinMan]

Vote: Nero

[zMuffinMan]

virtually null right now. a slight town lean.

[zMuffinMan]

what resistance has there been to a voided wagon? i can count the number of people who have called him town throughout the game on one hand.

the only reason a voided wagon didn't happen yesterday is because people swung over to the seanald wagon 24 hours before the deadline.

[zMuffinMan]

like most of the people voting other players are

also fine

with a voided lynch happening, so that's not really resistance.

[zMuffinMan]

like, this is the voided wagon at its peak yesterday

VoidedMafia (7): 1baldeagle1, uʍop ǝpısdn, ProHawk, Nero Cain, Seanald, pieguyn, BBmolla
Nero Cain (5): zMuffinMan, Lord Mhork, Harakiri, VoidedMafia, Lost Butterfly
KingdomAces (2): Garuda, morph the cat
Seanald (1): PeregrineV
zMuffinMan (1): Espeonage

Not Voting (2): KingdomAces, Ghostly Penguin

harakiri swung over to voided after this, morph thought voided was scum, PV was obviously fine with voided as seen by his end of day vote, espeonage didn't mention a voided scum read but was willing to vote voided, and KA i dunno. if you count tammy as a player still in the game yesterday, they thought voided was scum too.

mhork was the only one vehemently resisting the voided wagon, and i think garuda is townreading voided, too.

what resistance was there to his lynch?

[zMuffinMan]

wait, you're using a wagon on a SCUM player as evidence of resistance to a voided wagon?

and the seanald wagon happening wasn't due to resistance against the voided wagon as far as i can tell. although what's your take on it if you think that's the case?

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin lynch molla or eagle with me. Or even better Prohawk.

not eagle today, i think

you think nero is town?

[zMuffinMan]

What's your PV read

town

So its completely reasonable to suggest that scum would have countered to DP thinkin' he would have been a mislynch.

just to be clear, you think the DP and seanald lynches were

both

counterwagons to voided? i'm going to assume you think i'm the scum among the players pushing the DP wagon, but who do you think is scum among the players pushing the seanald one? because neither voided nor i pushed that and mhork was late on that one.

This is pretty funny coming from a guy that claims there's no resistance to a Voided lynch but it trying to drum up support for a non-voided lynch

. . . . .

[zMuffinMan]

as in are you still letting ka coast by on that zdenek claim?

no

[zMuffinMan]

was that directed at me? because i don't currently think he's town

[zMuffinMan]

@Muffin-nero could be scum. Rather others.

if i don't get my way with nero, i'll probably join you on bb or prohawk

Speaking of townreads, I've been getting one on Espeon with his recent posts.

which posts?

[zMuffinMan]

Oh... and Vote Freeze on ProHawk was unnecessary.

how did you know your vote was frozen?

[zMuffinMan]

oh right i missed baldy claiming that

[zMuffinMan]

If you are seriously pushing someone as scum based on said player not having been lynched yet, in a multifaction large game where most of the people are still alive and (if the set-up is the same as last game) a given scumbag has only one or two allies to push an agenda, then you are ridiculous.

nah, not really. since scum got cop n0, it's entirely possible one team knows who the other is, so it's dumb to rule out the possibility that scum can't have more than just 1 or 2 people protecting them

We can get Nero tomorrow.

predicting it now. come D7 nero will still be alive

[zMuffinMan]

he was pushing muffin, one of the stronger players in this game, as scum very strongly based on a meta argument that was actually pretty good

the "meta" argument he used against me was based on a single town game and how my attitude was different from that single town game. you thought that was pretty good? plus i'm not really sure what he was doing counts as "pushing" me since he never really showed any willingness to try to get me lynched or anything. but that does make me wonder what happened to his read on me, since i don't remember him really calling me scum recently and i don't recall him mentioning a change in his read on me.

[zMuffinMan]

Why are we lynching KA? General uselessness?

mm, i didn't like the way KA was pushing through the seanald lynch either. he didn't really look to be thinking about it from an angle of trying to figure out the likeliness of seanald making mistake and instead was pushing the idea that he lied about finances and wouldn't have made that mistake as town, etc etc.

i mean, at least the people attacking him from the angle of talking about red auctions kind of had a point, but KA's angle didn't look town to me.

telling people to kill you after they kill him

i don't even remember this happening

[zMuffinMan]

ISO him because fuck you I'm not quoting

this?

Kill me then MuffinMan

because i'm pretty sure he meant "kill me then, zmuffinman" not "kill me, then zmuffinman"

grammers is important etc

[zMuffinMan]

btw

@Espeonage,

a little late, but why did you send money to morph if you started thinking they were scummy at the end of yesterday?

[zMuffinMan]

About Espeon: Gut. Will elaborate further after I take a short break.

is this a nero break?

[zMuffinMan]

i don't think anyone half-decent at this game has ever called someone out for "beetle-juicing"

[zMuffinMan]

i mean anyone who does it shouldn't ever be taken seriously about anything they say

[zMuffinMan]

so who do you want to lynch today

[zMuffinMan]

you think that's bad? people don't even realise zmuffinm is silent

my name is an

I... really don't want to decide.

are you aware of the deadline?

[zMuffinMan]

why are you voting upsidedown?

[zMuffinMan]

He was the only person with votes on him that I legitimately have any sort of non town read.

so you have town reads on all of ka, voided, nero, prohawk and bbMolla?

and upsidedown is a non-town read but not a scum read? or...?

[zMuffinMan]

see, the problem i have with you is that you're apparently convinced i'm scum, but you're doing absolutely nothing about it. i questioned why you think i'm scum and you gave some vague answer that, when pushed, you were unable to back up. instead you tried to deflect and claim that it's scum-motivated to question why you suspect me. lol

if you're really that sure i'm scum, it shouldn't be this fucking difficult for you to come up with at least one decent reason for thinking i'm scum.

now you're voting someone who isn't going to be lynched today (and may not be lynched at all this game) and instead of pushing that any further, you're content with sitting back and doing nothing about your reads.

[zMuffinMan]

Even if by some miracle/twist of fate this was a town slot he'd still know there were two scum teams so him going all "WWWWWWHHHHHAAAAAA?" seems just really fake to me

nero

i'm going to give you some credit here and assume you actually are smarter than a doorknob.

voided has at most two partners, right (not including the other scum team in this)? if you're calling a wagon on scum resistance to his wagon, then you're claiming that his two partners were solely responsible for that resistance. essentially you're claiming that two players versus the sixteen or so others alive were responsible for the DP wagon and did it to counter the voided wagon, right? or am i missing what you're saying here?

and you're claiming this also happened with the seanald wagon, right?

so tell me who you think was responsible for both these pushes?

[zMuffinMan]

P sure Muffin called me scum for that

rofl

what actually happened is i called you scum, then you called me scum, then i noted that your

only scum reads

are people attacking you

after they start attacking you

.

[zMuffinMan]

I don't suppose there's a chance we can swing support to a Nero lynch? He's still scum and he's slipping away just like I said he would.

:<

Nero is top townread not on the list already

heh

are you ever going to get around to explaining any of your reads?

also, can you answer 3445?

[zMuffinMan]

His response to the lynch attempt yesterday is either masterful scum or focused town.

which response/s?

UD has been pinging me since late yesterday and todays play.

why?

[zMuffinMan]

convincing

[zMuffinMan]

at this juncture

at this juncture, as opposed to when exactly?

because you've complained about not getting the lynches you want, but you seem rather content to just sit back and do nothing more than call some people scum and some people town, then fail to provide any substance when questioned about your reads

[zMuffinMan]

you just complained about "mobilising" lynches on people not already under suspicion

even if that weren't a "well duh!" statement, you're not even doing anything to push the lynches you apparently prefer

[zMuffinMan]

but OK, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you haven't had the time to do it

you're going to post substance tomorrow?

[zMuffinMan]

gonna hammer before i sleep

[zMuffinMan]

Vote: KA

[zMuffinMan]

why ud?

[zMuffinMan]

Besides, if Garuda or UD were part of the group calling Nero town cuz meta, that points more to Nero being scum imo.

i'm pretty sure UD wasn't one of those people

My top reads atm, upon reflection: UD, molla, Garuda (Same reasoning as previously), Muffin, ProHawk or Eagle.

expand on reasons today?

[zMuffinMan]

14. zMuffinMan-?

nati is null on me?

But I wanna kill Nero dead because he's scum

i know

but it's not happening any time soon

[zMuffinMan]

Maybe if there were a wagon on him that could be formed by all the people saying 'yeah he's prolly scum,' it could happen

i don't have very high hopes about this. it hasn't come close to happening yet.

[zMuffinMan]

I'm going back and forth. Sorry, muffin-bro. You know I hate sorting you when you're not obvtown

i'm surprised you think this could be my scum game. you should really know what my scum game looks like by now and know this isn't it.

And why do you think that is?

yeaaaaaaaaah but that doesn't change anything. we still need a majority and a majority doesn't seem to want to lynch nero over others

[zMuffinMan]

Vote: Nero

[zMuffinMan]

espeonage, talk to me about your reads now? or LA atm?

[zMuffinMan]

His attack on pieguyn was really bad and scummy and I didn't like it

elaborate

[zMuffinMan]

just the vote?

did you read the exchanges he had with pieguy after that?

[zMuffinMan]

well that kinda explains why you want ud lynched over others

if not for that, what's your read on ud nati?

[zMuffinMan]

garuda coz bop?

and why ud?

[zMuffinMan]

how is that as good as a cop guilty?

[zMuffinMan]

I explained Garuda at the beginning of today

yeah your explanation was basically BoP wasn't it? or did i miss something here?

Uwop because he's been on the periphery

wat

[zMuffinMan]

i think you're making too many jumps based on night actions

[zMuffinMan]

considering the likelihood of scum having won a lot of red auctions, why would they roleblock you at all?

it seems more WIFOM than anything

[zMuffinMan]

[zMuffinMan]

pieguy, i'm going to be blunt with you here.

i'm not scum and you're being silly. if i were scum, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

i don't think ud is scum. i think you're being stupid. come up with something to convince me i'm wrong that isn't "i was roleblocked, ud is totally scum!"

[zMuffinMan]

i'm reading his ISO now. the read progression on you looks natural. it started some time near the start of D3 (prior to whatever "paranoia" you're referring to?). i don't think it was coming from the angle you're saying it came from.

[zMuffinMan]

eh, i'll let ud defend himself on those points, but i still think you're wrong

what's your read on nero?

can you explain why we wouldn't be having this conversation if we're scum?

bluntly, these sorts of conversations, about night actions and wifom etc, are conversations i tend to avoid as scum. like always. i don't talk about these sorts of things as scum because of the risk of implicating myself. you can call this self-meta or whatever, but this is something that you can easily verify by just reading any/all scum games i've ever played. even when i specifically perform actions for the sole purpose of creating wifom or because i want someone else to think it's wifom, i never talk about it personally. so if anything, that sort of thing is close to a town tell for me, really.

[zMuffinMan]

i would be surprised if nati is ever confident in his ability to read me

[zMuffinMan]

even in that touhou game, the first question he asked in the dead QT was "muffin is town, right?"

[zMuffinMan]

you mean in regards to what i said about postgame trolling?

[zMuffinMan]

coz that was also true, i don't do that as scum either, ever. that wasn't postgame though, and i was wary of a blocking role possibly being in the game

[zMuffinMan]

if you drum up support for a nacho lynch, sure

[zMuffinMan]

he's among the players i'm not reading as town but wouldn't be my first choice for a lynch over others like nero, prohawk, bbMolla

[zMuffinMan]

I actually have a townread on Nacho

why?

I would think that if I were in Voided shoes I’d be concerned ‘cause Muffin is using a nonsensical statement to defend me

i am? i never said there's no resistance to his wagon, and i never said that makes him town.

again, what

actually happened

is that i mentioned how much resistance to your wagon there was

based solely on people calling this your town meta

without even responding to or noting the arguments against you, and you came back by saying that there was resistance to the voided wagon, too. i pointed out that maybe 3 people(?) in the game were against the voided wagon at the time and asked what the fuck you were referring to, and since then you've been trying to say i'm defending voided by saying there's no resistance to his wagon.

it literally has nothing to do with why i think he's town and has never factored into any argument for me calling him town. i did, however, think the composition of the wagon on voided looked scum-driven and that factored a bit into my read on voided, but that's about it.

[zMuffinMan]

All three of Espy, Pie, Hara are on all there so I wouldn’t be surprised to find scum there.

then who do you think is the scum among them?

Gost has been lurking

i am 100% certain this is not game-related

I'm pretty much in agreence with this though I'd like to add that PV also had a p strong town read on me (obviously not strong enuff to neighbor me or put me in his top 6) so I feel his read on me should carry a bit of weight

. . . . .

[zMuffinMan]

@pieguy,

did you end up reading my ISO and coming to a conclusion yet?

[zMuffinMan]

The only reason why I've not hated Nero Cain to death is PA says that his death tunnels are his town meta.

what "death tunnels"?

[zMuffinMan]

you are wrong, and since you're not talking about why you think i'm scum, i'm just going to assume it's based on some silly paranoia since you clearly have no idea how to read my play

[zMuffinMan]

if there is a correct way to read your play and the reason I'm scumreading you is because I don't know what it is, then why is there almost no one here who's townreading you?

what counts as "almost no one"? i think about half the game still alive is townreading me? maybe? i'm not even keeping track but you apparently are so you can probably correct me here. not to mention KA, pyro, morph and seanald all had townreads on me, i think? some maybe weaker than others

even morph, who gave the most specific townread on you in this game, wasn't completely convinced

so what? they knew this is my towngame, they were paranoid about me because one head had written me off as obvtown before when i was scum - to the point it lost them the game.

was morph even completely convinced of anyone?

what do you think about my other scumreads?

already talked about ud and garuda, baldy and espeonage meh. i want to hear more from espeonage and i don't want to deal with baldy in the immediate future

[zMuffinMan]

there's people townreading you but no one's given any concrete evidence that this matches your towngame that I can recall.

... are you serious? even if that exact thing didn't happen in this very game (by morph), what is the point you're driving at here?

why are you townreading uwop?

because their play has been consistently town-looking for like... the entire game. i don't agree with their attack on you, but i can see where they're coming from with it and don't think it's a scum-motivated push. and the way they've talked about their reads and various other things that have happened in the game (e.g. the rushed seanald wagon) looked town.

why were you townreading Klick when he was still in the game?

i think because of the tone of his posts and the way he was developing his reads D2? i don't remember but i've probably talked about it before. why are you asking me about this D5?

[zMuffinMan]

PV's issue with me came from something i said about seanald's advertising choice (austerity measures) and why it might have just been a move by dumb town rather than scum. he was cautious of this because a game we'd just finished, i was deliberately ignoring his points against my scum buddy and trying to make it seem like he didn't really have a case at all. he thought i was doing the same thing here for a scum buddy. that was... literally the entire reason PV was paranoid about me, and after a while he gave it up and simply declared a igmeou iirc. so the "similarity" he noticed isn't even really a similarity because seanald was town, lol.

i'm not going to go into whether or not you think morph didn't correctly apply meta or whatever. they did. i'm town. this is my town game, 100%. they knew this so they backed off of me. whatever you think you're seeing is wrong. it kind of disappointing that you admit you'd probably be gutreading me as town but you don't want to trust your gut.

[zMuffinMan]

that's really fucking dumb

[zMuffinMan]

if you're really

that

worried about me, then just hit scum today and it won't be fucking mylo tomorrow

and if you're just going to lynch me and go back to trying to lynch ud tomorrow, then you should just be ignored for the rest of this game

[zMuffinMan]

i never said there's no resistance to his wagon

like most of the people voting other players are

also fine

with a voided lynch happening, so that's not really resistance.

At the point, Voided had escaped two lynches. He's now escaped 3 lynches and like no one but me and Baldy want that dead. If you don't think that's resistance then you are either scum or a fucking moron.

look, dipshit, i'll explain this simply one more time because i don't want anyone actually reading your bullshit to get the idea that you have a point here.

i

never

claimed there was no resistance to the voided wagon; i specifically pointed out at least one person who was against the voided wagon vehemently (mhork) and others who had vague townreads on him. what i did say is ask you about is what the "resistance" you were referring to was because most of the people who were voting other players were also fine with a voided lynch. now, your claim is that other wagons getting lynched over him points to resistance to his wagon, so i asked you to justify this by telling me which of the players pushing the counter-wagons were scum. you've only recently given three names, but none of those names were really

pushing

those counter-wagons, they were just on those counter-wagons. they didn't make them happen. so where the fuck was the resistance coming from, nero?

not only that, but my point about you wasn't just that there was resistance to your wagon, but that the resistance was coming from people who were ignoring all the arguments for you being scum and simply calling you town based on "town meta". and you keep conveniently ignoring this point, which is the fucking crux of the reason i dislike the people defending you. and it's funny because in the post of yours two posts prior to that one you quoted above, you know this is my argument. you leaving it out now is yet another example of you being totally fucking dishonest in the way you're arguing with me.

Your top 5 scum reads please.

you, prohawk, garuda, 2 of {bbMolla, baldy, espeonage}

[zMuffinMan]

I still maintain that if everyone was fine with his lynch why hasn't it happened, tell me that.

btw, there are a number of possible reasons the voided wagon might not have happened yet, in the same way there are a number of reasons the seanald wagon didn't happen til D3 (despite a vast majority of the game scum reading him since D1). was the resistance to the seanald wagon D1/D2 because he was scum, too, nero?

yeah i'm deliberately being a prick with that question because your reasoning is so downright stupid it doesn't deserve addressing seriously

[zMuffinMan]

also, since you're using a counter-wagon on scum as an argument for resistance to the voided wagon, you are basically arguing that voided and his two buddies are the root cause of all the resistance to the voided wagon, so...

go on, analyse those wagons and show me which two players were responsible for those voided "counter-wagons"

[zMuffinMan]

voided, who are you thinking about voting today? do you actually think there's a chance nero is town here?

[zMuffinMan]

pieguy,

(1) which games did you look at to see how i react to fakehammering as town? because there's really nothing i can say here other than, "nuh uh, you're wrong". what i did in that other game was a bit different (and wasn't even a reaction to a fake hammer) so you're drawing a false parallel here. i joked about it here because it was such a bad reaction test that it was lolworthy. you came out and admitted it was a fakehammer before anyone had even given any reactions. *shrug* that's what i do as town when i see something that ridiculous happen - if you don't know this, then you haven't done much meta research on me

(2) even ignoring the fact that the two posts you just quoted with my reactions to being voted aren't the flat-out "denial" that morph was referring to, your reasons for voting me were flimsy. you were essentially calling for a policy lynch on me with your last vote, because you've admitted you'd probably be reading me as town if you trusted your gut and i'm not even your top scum read, but you don't want to make a mistake and mislynch me at mylo. that's why i called your argument really fucking dumb in 3696. me rolling my eyes at your vote on me 3613 is because it was a similarly bad vote that came from nowhere.

(3) again, you're completely missing what morph was referring to when he noted "flat out denial" is how i respond to votes as scum (of course i'm going to deny i'm scum, as either alignment, they were talking about how the way i did it was different as scum), but you're drawing another false parallel here. what happened in imperishable night is i tried to throw something you left out into the mix of your VCA to skew your view of it. i didn't "throw the seanald wagon into the mix" to distract anything,

you were the one

who brought it up and i commented on it.

(4) . . . . . you do realise that you're using my joke "reaction" to your fake-hammer as a point against me in the same post you're claiming i'm being serious in all my posts, right? like, that kind of destroys this point altogether

(5) yeah, wanna know why i did that in imperishable night? because it came

after

the metadive morph did on me here and i knew i had to change things up while playing against them as scum. i did it deliberately in that game because they know i'm town here and i was trying to throw them off.

(6) it's

not

confirmed you got roleblocked. don't pretend like it is. but that wasn't my point. i was pointing out that the reason you may have been roleblocked is not because ud is scum like you were suggesting (by claiming it was almost a cop guilty). but hey, since this is basically one big meta analysis, did you ever get around to confirming what i said about never talking about things like that as scum. because i quite literally have never done this as scum and i do it as town, so either you think this game is a magical anomaly or you should really know this makes me town here.

---

look, here's the thing, pieguy. you're seeing what you want to see in my play because you're paranoid about me. OK. i don't mind. you just lost a game vs me and you don't want it to happen again. but i'm not scum here and your meta analysis on me is so flawed it's not funny because you're ignoring things you want to ignore and seeing things you want to see. and the thing is, you're basing this entirely on one scum game from me that started way after morph had metadived me here, where i was scum against them as town and i

needed

to change things up slightly or risk them seeing right through me. and here's the thing; they almost did see right through me in that game. but they were consistently reading me as town here after the metadive. know why? because i was trying to fake my towngame in imperishable night and they probably knew that was the case there, but it didn't affect their read on me in this game because this is, undoubtedly, my town game.

[zMuffinMan]

this sounds as if IN and MIII were going on at the same time.

they were

imperishable night started after this game and ended a couple days ago

[zMuffinMan]

actually i think imperishable night started about 3 days after they metadived me here

[zMuffinMan]

@pieguy,

i don't remember games i've reacted to a fake-hammer as town or even seen a fake-hammer as town (i only recently started playing again and i have like 5-6 recently completed town games and i don't remember fake hammers in any of them), that's why i asked. because you implied it was more in line with scum-me than town-me i assumed you had a baseline for comparison.

the flat-out denial morph was referring to was me dismissing it without anything else (as in a flat "you're wrong" and nothing else, i believe). i can't exactly ask them, nor do i really care because we're getting pretty deep into self-meta here and you can just verify this yourself instead of asking me.

smaller games are far easier to be less serious in (the pace of the game is slower, the number of players i'm responding to is less). i

do

post seriously as town, quite a lot actually, it's just i sew jokes in here and there to lighten the mood. without even checking i can guarantee i did that in this game, too (even outside of the joke reaction to your fake hammer). it also doesn't help that i got a bit more emotionally invested in this game than i should have. that happens sometimes. see this game for example, where things i said to some players were far harsher than anything i've said this game, and i don't recall being light-hearted or joking much at all there.

i really wasn't even questioning the roleblock, but it's only confirmed from your PoV so i don't know why you're acting like it should be confirmed from mine. also i'm not saying i'd never do it as scum, i may in the future do it as scum just because it's such a strong indication i'm town. but really, you're calling it scummy when it's something i explicitly avoid as scum because of the inherent risk of being called out for it (like you are doing in this game). *shrug*

pie, Muffin, can you two please stop arguing?

i'm not really arguing with him, i'm trying to help him read me.

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin, when exactly did your Garuda scumread suddenly appear? It feels like you didn't suspect them all that much until people were seriously discussing them as a lynch option.

today, really. he's always been in my meh-could-be-town-could-be-scum pile but poe + his play yesterday is making me think scum

i still think you, mhork, pieguy, ghosty, harakiri, ud are town. of the remaining players, voided is probably town, nero and prohawk are the two players i feel most strongly about being scum. then it goes {baldy -> espeonage -> garuda -> bbMolla} in terms of town -> scum

[zMuffinMan]

i don't like the idea of a full mass claim. maybe if it was a surprise and we just did it without warning, but by now scum have had enough time to check, double-check, etc whatever they're going to claim and i doubt you're going to catch any mistakes. all i can see it doing is giving scum an advantage with future auctions.

[zMuffinMan]

I can't help but notice that uwop goes inactive soon as there is a wagon on him.

N was the only active head of that hydra and he's currently V/LA or something, i think

Having said that, given that PRs auctioned off are temporary, getting more info from mass claiming them/their results isn't a bad idea.

actually, this i'd be fine with instead of a full mass claim

[zMuffinMan]

gonna be busy til about 36 hours from now so this will probably be my last post in the mean time

For those of you with me on the scum-list, why am I not being pushed today?

probably for the same reason you're not pushing a read other than ud

I have a completely meaningless "Not Mafia" result on Nero Cain. So given that scum are guaranteed to have investigation immunity, that means he's...50% less likely to be scum.

you're right. it is meaningless. and it doesn't affect my read on nero at all.



also,

@Espeonage,

if you have time now, can you start expanding on your reads?

[zMuffinMan]

But Sean got lynched, Voided didn't.

you're a sharp one. i see nothing gets past you

These statements are

no, the are not (and since voided seems to have no problem interpreting my message, i'm guessing the problem in our communication is something on your end and not mine), but i've completely lost interest in pursuing this line of conversation with you because you keep trying to make it an argument about semantics rather than actually making a point or addressing any of the questions i'm asking in any sort of substantive way. voided's 3866 hit the nail on the head so fucking hard it's not funny

Silly Muffin pretending like there's a decent reason to suspect me

what counts as a "decent" reason? because i've given plenty of reasons i think you're scum based on the way you've approached this game. for example, even apart from the way you're arguing with me, the way you've come about your reads is something i've gone over and over. there's no genuine intent to scum hunt in your posts. there's no genuine attempt at discerning my alignment in your posts.

nero seems like he could very easily be a mislynch and I wanna be careful

OK. how much of my conversation with nero have you been following? what's it going to take to change your mind about this? has anything about nero looked town to you?

every time I read a Nero post lately, I think "holy shit. they've finally done it. they have created the Deep Blue of the mafia world! Can't play scum for shit, though."

iawtp

Whoever has Messenger, come forward.

i think nati claimed it somewhere? i remember them talking about it at some point, i think

Part burden of proficiency

wat. if nero is scum, then that pretty much means i've been pushing for scum lynches since D2, no?

the hypocrisy of his stance on Nero's wagon development compared to Voided's

no. this is just wrong. my original point about the nero wagon was that the resistance to the nero wagon came from people who were ignoring the arguments for nero being scum in favour of calling him town purely for "meta" reasons. this was the issue when i talked about the "resistance" to nero's wagon, and you should know this because i remember you specifically questioning me about it.

yeah, the voided wagon never reaching lynch threshold may share some similarities to the nero wagon, but so what?

I really don't like how he responded to Espeonage's attack yesterday--it just felt overdefensive and like he was trying to undermine and belittle Espeonage

that wasn't really my intent at all. i'm not even sure how much of the game espeonage has actually read and it feels like every time i ask him to elaborate on his reads (particularly his scum read on me and his town read on nero), the responses i'm getting are lacklustre. was hoping he'd put a bit more effort into expanding on his reads today, but so far no such luck.

[zMuffinMan]

ok, nm. they just said they went for messenger but never actually claimed to have it i think

[zMuffinMan]

even if he has investigation immunity contrary to my read on him, given that it's apparently 4-shot we're better off scum hunting elsewhere

no. just no.

i mean, fine, there are scum other than nero in this game, but leaving nero because of a cop inno in a game where we know scum has investigation immunity and nero is very likely scum is nonsensical.

fuck that. he's scum. lynch him today.

[zMuffinMan]

Most people aren't scum reading him. Most people note the case on him is shit and it really hasn't felt like anyone has actually tried to determine his alignment, which screams lazy dumb lynch that won't hit scum.

like how does this not apply to me as well?

... how do you think it

does

apply to you? quite literally every part of that paragraph does not apply to you this game.

[zMuffinMan]

Bullshit isn't hard to make up dude. I could have reads on everyone as scum. I'm town, and because of that, I don't have shit.

right. the fact that you "don't have shit" is the part i find hard to swallow bbM. like, part of the reason i eventually started town reading you in n's game is because the stuff you were saying matched my thought processes and looked genuine, and all you're doing here is coasting and claiming you wouldn't do this as scum so you can't be scum here

I bring a case against Molla. Doesn't get interested.
Quilford makes a summary of my case. Molla is suddenly so interested and wants a 1v1.

i doubt it

[zMuffinMan]

i doubt that's bussing*

[zMuffinMan]

I have a read now

*clap* *clap*

[zMuffinMan]

hey bbMolla,

Quil you wanna 1v1 me?

you started thinking ud was scum here?

or why did you ask for the 1v1?

[zMuffinMan]

Still don't think Quilford is scum.

Still think Nero lynch continues to look pretty great.

I've seen better days
Put my face in my hands
Get down on my knees and I pray to God
Hope He sees this through till the end

[zMuffinMan]

i don't get it. what's similar about them?

[zMuffinMan]

Lynching Nero Cain at this point is still sub-optimal with a cop innocent on him, Tailor possibilities or not

are you proposing we leave nero alive til endgame because of the cop inno (in a game where we know scum has investigation immunity) and ignore his play? or what is your logic here?

(btw, nobody has tailor. it was not won on the first round of auctions, and still hasn't gone up for auction again, so a guilty would mean something but there is a very real possibility that any innocent results cannot be trusted because of investigation immunity)

[zMuffinMan]

Not endgame per se, but invalidating cop results for fear that the target was the one player who got the ability is paranoid and devaluing the town power

even disregarding the fact that obv-investigation-target-nero had a lot of reason to go for it, i'm not invaliding the inno because of paranoia, i'm invalidating it because he looks like fucking scum and i don't want him anywhere near mylo. if we mislynch today, it's potentially mylo tomorrow, so leaving him alive today essentially includes the possibility of leaving him alive til endgame

[zMuffinMan]

(I had more to say here but it got lost in copypasting, so yeah.)

probably something to do with the way nero is not-so-subtly dodging the questions he's being asked to elaborate on (instead claiming the answers should be obvious)

you have amazing patience to even bother giving him serious replies anymore. my willpower has been completely sapped

[zMuffinMan]

When I flip town

i've always hated it when people use this phrase, mostly because it's something i associate with a scum mindset. town generally talk about after they're dead, when you lynch me, etc but don't need to emphasise flipping town.

if you're town, your wagon having scum on it isn't exactly rocket surgery. that's like the laziest last will i've ever seen.

[zMuffinMan]

i don't see nero flipping town as likely at all, but sure i'm probably fine with that

[zMuffinMan]

Yeah like you, Voided, Mhork etc. give a fuck about my town flip.

heh

and only a few posts after i talked about why this sort of thing comes from a scum mindset

[zMuffinMan]

also you seem to be continually conflating different ideas.

for example, you're arguing that mhork is scum for X, voided is pointing out X isn't a tell, and you're saying that bbMolla is doing X (not a tell) and coming to a non sequitur conclusion that voided can't have a scum read on bbMolla

also, your resistance argument was bad because you don't have decent grounds for claiming that the resistance was due to scum driving counter-wagons. i've asked you over and over and over to expand on this and you're either refusing to or unable to

[zMuffinMan]

I don't think I am...

in the (somewhat unlikely?) event i am wrong about nero, i think garuda is probably scum

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin, my point is that Quilford's dogged "BBmolla is obvscum" felt a lot like Nero's stance on Harakiri D1 and early D2. Given that you've pushed on Nero for having static reads, I'm surprised you didn't get the same impression I did from his posts.

even if were to ignore the fact that quilford has said he's going to ISO bbMolla and perhaps reassess things, it wasn't really similar to begin with, so i don't see your point

[zMuffinMan]

so how do you like the chance of a Nero x zmuffin cross bus? /paranoia

if i had to guess, i'd say there's about 0% chance of that being the case

I actually have been developing a theory that LB is scum, Nero is town and scum governed him to secure his lynch

that sounds borderline retarded unless scum are completely confident they're not getting lynched today. it's also suboptimal when they could have, you know, just lynched nero-town and saved the governing for mylo tomorrow if one of them gets run up

nero is scum


@nati

what's your read on prohawk atm?

[zMuffinMan]

Vote: Prohawk

i want to do this

[zMuffinMan]

do you have any town reads prohawk?

[zMuffinMan]

because he's probably scum

i haven't really liked anything about the way he's been approaching the game, especially lately. for example, just his play today; he said he needed to reassess things but since then he's just been coasting on the upside down vote, not really pushing it, not really creating any ripples, just being a background figure who occasionally surfaces to chime in here and there

the only things i really remember him doing this game were a few arguments with morph while they were still alive, and he had a suspicion of me which i dunno what happened to it but he hasn't really mentioned his suspicion of me in the past few game days so whatever

Town reads currently reside with Nero

really?

[zMuffinMan]

zmuffin why'd you govern Nero?

don't insult me

Because they know they can setup a flash-wagon on an easy town-lynch

i don't think that makes a lot of sense. nero being scum is the much simpler answer.

governing nero-town sounds like a stupid short-term plan that gives scum nothing unless they secure a mislynch today, and even then it may backfire if enough people thought scum hatched a plan to govern nero-town. on the other hand, if nero-town were lynched today and a kill went through tonight, in a worst-case scenario of scum getting the kill each night, we'd have to lynch correctly 5 times in a row to win.

but if you really think this is the case:

(1) why wouldn't the same options for an "easy town-lynch" be on the table tomorrow if nero is town and was lynched today?
(2) shouldn't you be more suspicious of me when i'm the one who started your wagon?

[zMuffinMan]

ebwop:

and we'd have to avoid scum using the govern to save one of their own tomorrow while lynching correctly 5 times

[zMuffinMan]

Like I said, I havent ran any numbers, but if it would be MYLO/LYLO tomorrow, this plan is a victory-plan.

yeah, if nero is town and scum were able to secure a mislynch today and we lynched him tomorrow and no night kills were blocked, then it would be a victory-plan, but that's a lot of ifs when the much simpler solution seems to be letting the lynch on nero go through if he's town.

your conspiracy theory seems overly complicated and there are so many things that could go wrong.

let's say i give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're town, or at least change my mind about wanting to lynch you today. i don't think nero is town, but that can be discussed tomorrow regardless of what happens today. your main suspects are people i think are town. who else would you be willing to lynch? or when are you going to have time to explain why i'm wrong about LB/UD/harakiri?

[zMuffinMan]

zmuffin what should I do

who would you want to lynch today if nobody had any votes on them right now?

[zMuffinMan]

actually one thing that worries me about quilford is him going afk til wednesday when the deadline is like 60 hours from now but i still don't think he's scum

i could probably get behind a baldy wagon

Unvote

i've gotta go for dinner. i'll think about what i want to do today when i get back.

[zMuffinMan]

my apologies, my one desire is to please you. forgive me.

[zMuffinMan]

what's your read on people who aren't bbMolla, quilford?

[zMuffinMan]

@prohawk,

other than lb/ud/harakiri, who would you be willing to lynch today?

[zMuffinMan]

Right now, I think both eagle and Espeonage are solid lynches. Slightly prefer Espeonage, actually, just because his vote hops on the last page have been terrible and inconsistent with the opinions he's given, as thought they're based more on convenience than conviction.

basically where i'm at right now

i'm tired right now. i'll probably wake up and do a little reading then make a decision before i head to work in the morning

[zMuffinMan]

hm. i thought i posted as i was heading out the door this morning but apparently it didn't send.

i'll be around between now and close to the deadline.

espeonage,

talk to me about your current reads

[zMuffinMan]

what is your undying love for nero based on again? was it meta?

also,

Either someone thought I was really town

do you think this was a genuine thought process coming from nero-town?

[zMuffinMan]

i mean, if he's town, he shoulda been thinking "scum gambit saving me for mylo" but no, it took him being prodded about it to even mention it and he also apparently thought there was a possibility a town player got governor, didn't publicly claim it, governed nero and didn't publicly claim it...

[zMuffinMan]

and the bald vote is just a him or me thing?

[zMuffinMan]

why? i'm leaning espeonage atm

[zMuffinMan]

Sorry, I just noticed ProHawk's vote doesn't really make sense given 4416

wat

[zMuffinMan]

Unless I'm misinterpreting something

i think prohawk was suggesting it's inconsistent for voided to vote baldy after including espeonage and not baldy in his previous want-to-lynch lists.

[zMuffinMan]

if none of their people were heavily suspected then they'd have no need to govern a town-you, durr

[zMuffinMan]

i can vote baldy if there's enough support

i don't think you have enough town cred to cash in for that after 4425 though, nati

[zMuffinMan]

talk more about the LB scum read, prohawk. what's it based on? i remember you saying something about it being based on UD's flip but i don't remember much else

[zMuffinMan]

I'm most confident in Mhork and eagle scum

current thoughts on nero?

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin, your read on Eagle?

why are you asking me specifically?

i'm kind of iffy on him right now. he keeps drifting between being a scum read and a town read for me. like, some of his posting is just awful and then i read things like 4471 and think it looks genuinely town.

the only reason i'm not voting you right now is because i want to put some effort into reassessing things in this game, and baldy is one of the players i need to focus on. which i may not have time for before the weekend but i'll see what i can get done this afternoon/tomorrow.

[zMuffinMan]

Can we revisit the idea of mass-claim? At least of used abilities, if not things people still have in their arsenals.

i'm not expecting too much from this, but it doesn't hurt so why not?

I'm not sure if I want to lynch Nero or eagle ATM

who do you want to lynch? and is ghostlin still MIA?

[zMuffinMan]

if we are massclaiming, someone should actually start it or it's never going to happen

You better explain this. Both of you. You guys are both suddenly townreading each other, given the fact you were scumreading each other yesterday.

also, this

[zMuffinMan]

I just wanted to see what you thought of his dishonesty

i don't see the "dishonesty" in what he said. at best, mistaken because you never made you didn't make your read on him clear at various points in the game.

Can you explain how his looks "genuinely town" but when I said practically the same thing before him its different?

i don't remember where you said anything similar, but i imagine if you did and i read it, it was contextually different

[zMuffinMan]

For the first time all game I'm thinking that Nero might actually be town.

y

What does it serve to live another day when you would be essentially confirmed scum?

you don't seem to think he's confscum

[zMuffinMan]

i don't see myself changing my mind about nero at this point

[zMuffinMan]

I also know he's been around to respond to all of this, to fight it, to do something, but nothing. Does a townie really act this way when the game might be on the line?

also i agree with this


if we're mass claiming today, it needs to start immediately. otherwise, fuck it.

[zMuffinMan]

way to butcher that line

[zMuffinMan]

mhork, if you're really worried about today being potential mylo, what about this as an idea: no lynch today, LB shoots nero tonight?

[zMuffinMan]

actually nm that. i forgot scum could have an extra kill right now which potentially makes that a really dumb idea if LB is scum

hey nati,

talk to me about your current reads
especially the LB one

No that's silly. Plus wouldn't today be LyLo?

12 alive, it's not lylo, it's potential mylo, assuming no blocking of kills

[zMuffinMan]

@nati,

nah, no specific direction. i'm just kinda up and down on my LB read right now and wanted to know where you stand. plus it feels like you've been out of the game for most of this day phase, or at least i don't remember much from you

[zMuffinMan]

a lot of my scum reads started flipping town, so now i'm going back and looking at stuff again and i realised that a lot of what you've talked about this game has been iioa and while i see some things in your ISO that look townish (mostly the arguments you got into on D1), i have this nagging feeling in the back of my mind that it could have been faked.

i asked nati about you because i feel pretty good about nati being town and i wanted to know what his read on you based on neighbourhood stuff is

i don't really care that you claimed an inno on me (why should i?) and i didn't mention your arguments with harakiri because i was kind of waiting for nati to say something about it; he didn't, so i asked.

[zMuffinMan]

what's wrong with "ever"?

[zMuffinMan]

Zmuff is just gut

your gut sucks

I meant it more as "Muffin suspects you and probably wouldn't just sheep you if you said that 'Lost Butterfly is scum'"

mm, i'm not actually all that suspicious of prohawk at the moment, but when i asked him about that, it wasn't because i was looking for anything to convince me, but to see what he was thinking

[zMuffinMan]

...

[zMuffinMan]

yeah whatever, if you're still calling nero town after that, you have severe brain damage. that's all i have to say about it.

should have just quick-lynched him. meh.

[zMuffinMan]

hey mhorky,

i'm like... almost certain nati is town here. like, about as certain as i'll ever be about a nati read. and i think i'm pretty decent at reading him

your reason for thinking they're scum is shit

[zMuffinMan]

Nero put your vote on eagle so you can actually help you the town before you die tomorrow.

are you actually entertaining the idea that nero is town here?

[zMuffinMan]

So, I dont really know what to think at this point, but if Nero was going to be governed to save him from being mislynched why not wait until he was closer to being lynched?

what does this mean?

[zMuffinMan]

what's your read on bb atm

[zMuffinMan]

i believe that's referring to pretty much any time someone has used deadline, people automatically look to who was posting shortly after deadline was activated, as though scum aren't going to be wary of what they say after it's activated, if they even say anything at all.

[zMuffinMan]

If you are so confident that scum is going to govern (and implicate themselves as scum) but still BUS at the same time you are out of your mind.

pretty much the reason i'm thinking baldy could be town here

same reason i didn't really want to vote baldy at the end of yesterday when it was him or espeonage, actually.

[zMuffinMan]

i don't agree with it, but sure, it's

possible

he's voting baldy for the express purpose of detracting from a baldy-scum lynch if people think he's voting town.

[zMuffinMan]

(the question is whether nero realises he's near conf-scum or not and is doing it for that purpose)

(and i am not sure nero has figured it out yet. he's not exactly the brightest)

[zMuffinMan]

hey bb

talk to me about your reads atm. still the same as they were a few pages back?

[zMuffinMan]

prod dodge.

reading stuff in next couple hours assuming site stays up

[zMuffinMan]

people aren't really sure that the site is up/haven't had time to work on the game.

this. every time i've tried for the last 3 days it's been down except for a brief period of time i checked on my phone a little over a day ago and then when i got home, down.

tired atm, will get to this after sleep

[zMuffinMan]

Molla and/or muffinman, how similar do you think nacho's play in this game is to his play in my game?

i don't really remember. i wasn't particularly engaged in that game, and a primary reason i suspected nacho near the end of it was poe and seeing a couple stances he was taking not make a lot of sense to me. and then there was his claim, too.

1) Nero's vote on eagle came after MULTIPLE PEOPLE ALREADY CALLED HIM CONFIRMED SCUM IN THE THREAD

yes and no. i was referring to his vote on eagle yesterday, as well. i think at the very end of the day yesterday, i even talked a little about why nero's vote on baldy made me hesitant about him. maybe. i don't remember

Why has it taken so long for you (or anyone I guess) to ask forthis? When I claimed, imade it cleat iwas willing to message someone to prove ihad it but no one even cated

i thought about it, but what would it verify other than you have at least one shot of it left OR if you are scum, whoever you claim to send it to could just be your scum buddy?

given that we're in multiball, why would one expect scum to tip their hand to their counterparts that way?

this seems fake

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin: I need you bro.

i'm here now. maybe i'll do some reading while i wait for santa to come

[zMuffinMan]

actually, i wanna do this

Vote: Penguin_Alien

i'm not comfortable with a baldy lynch and i'm pretty sure harakiri is town (and i don't think this read is going to change any time soon)

[zMuffinMan]

then let's make it a date

also, merry christmas to everyone but nero!

[zMuffinMan]

are you reading LB as scum now, nacho? when did that happen?

[zMuffinMan]

Like this wagon is good, but how's its forming is sososososo sketchy. Like so sketchy I don't really want to join it...

nati, please don't do this

you're voting alongside someone who is basically confscum (ok, yeah, there's a possibility it's distancing, but i think that's unlikely in comparison to the possibility he's just looking for a mislynch, given he also voted baldy yesterday when it was a viable counter-wagon to espeonage)

plus, i'm tired atm but the way the votes have fallen today is making me think both the wagons that were leading for most of the day (baldy, you) are likely town wagons

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin, your thoughts on the Voided wagon?

voided himself? i'm not really sure. my read on him seems to be constantly in flux, and i really don't know what to think of him. he's not one of my top guesses for scum

or you mean the voided wagon as in the players voting him? if this, then "meh" is all i have to say about it. i think you're town atm, i'm not as sure of prohawk but he looks townish, and you should already know what i think of pa. and the recent hop on by bbM doesn't make me feel much better about it

do you disagree?

atm, yeah. the only situation i can see LB being scum making any sense at all is if all the wagons today have been on scum and either harakiri is scum or LB's team have no idea who the other scum team is. coz otherwise, too many things don't make sense.

plus i don't really get the angle you're arguing

The wagon compositions of both voided and pa suck too. Like, why is Prohawk voting with one of his top scumreads?

nati. you're voting alongside nero. you have no ground to stand on, here

[zMuffinMan]

i'll be around til deadline,

will prob start reading ISOs then deciding whether i actually wanna lynch someone that isn't PA

@prohawk

you think PA is town? also, remind me why you think voided is scum

[zMuffinMan]

Except Nero will naturally poison any wagon that he's on so whatever. Its literally the only thing he can still do.

k, but you realise he also voted baldy yesterday as a counter-wagon to espeonage when people still thought he was town (including espeonage), right?

if i had some sort of strongish scum read on baldy, i probably wouldn't even care that much, but i don't

who are you actually willing to lynch other than baldy (that's still viable with how close the deadline is)?

[zMuffinMan]

is voided a town read for you?

i'm reading through his ISO atm and resetting my read

[zMuffinMan]

remind me why you think baldy is scum, while i'm around and reading. or point me where you've talked about it coz i forget

[zMuffinMan]

@nati,

yeah, why is baldy scum?

i don't wanna ctrl+f your iso and look for it because there's like 690 mentions of baldy

[zMuffinMan]

yeah, but i'm thinking most of that has to do with the player and not his alignment

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin, do you have a strong objection to either a Voided or baldeagle lynch (as in, you'd prefer to no-lynch rather than get rid of one)?

nah. i'll prob be voting one of them today, seeing as a PA wagon is unlikely to happen at this point. i'm thinking voided atm if it's between him and baldy

[zMuffinMan]

like if one of them is town, it's baldy, and i really don't like nero's presence on the wagon (prior to people thinking he was scum) yesterday and today

voided has felt a bit off lately and the town read i had on him has taken a hit. plus he's in my poe could-be-scum pile at this point so i'm thinking there's a decent chance he's actually scum

[zMuffinMan]

and reading over his ISO again is making me remember why i had him as a scum read in the early stages of the game

Except I think eagle is an okay player..?

really? coz i remember morph getting all uppity about him being newbie lynchbait and that's part of the reason i stopped pressuring him early on

[zMuffinMan]

i don't think baldy is scum here, nati