NY 167: COMPLETELY NORMAL Mafia (GAME OVER)

[sangres]

UNVOTE

We've got more to post.

Don't fucking hammer before we're finish.

[sangres]

UNVOTE

We've got more to post.

Don't fucking hammer before we're finish.

You. You of all people should fucking get why leashing is ideal regardless of orcinus's alignment. The fact that you don't is making my prior town as fuck read cry. This isn't the same ffery I faked a cop innocent on in paradox.

This isn't day 3, and for damn sure isn't a player I'm even vaguely town-reading.

I was trying to answer this when the site went down last night.

How do you determine whether you're playing follow the cop with a scum "cop"? Your scenarios were all predicated on counter-claims.

[sangres]

^^ NOT an invitation for a counterclaim, btw.

I

[sangres]

why is he scum again

Being Hypocritical and selectively scumhunting.

and this is scum more likely than just bad town because?

i mean sometimes stupid townies feel the need to pounce on retarded things that are really widespread

guyett doesn't look too experienced

As orc opens up the game, he distinguishes very clearly between bad town and scum. Yet we feel all of his later attacks have had an overarching theme of "bad, so scum". Orc does have these tendencies as scum, but as town, he's usually better at distinguishing them from his normal rage, and usually backs down a bit from them.

I never left. The guy you replaced, Rank, is my brother from another mother. We've been playing mafia together for like 10 years. Him replacing out means he was scum. Means you are scum. You should tread carefully, because between you and FratBoys, I've got two mafia and its still early on D1

So you're misreading someone you've played with for 10 years



Retardedness or scum?

We didn't like this post because we felt this is the type of response that orc wouldn't let go easily. As town, he would dog the hell out of bauss because a meta read like this isn't something that you pass over with a one-shot response when you're in a town slot. When someone calls a meta read like this when you're in a town slot, you let the thunder loose because they're being an absolute idiot fucking up reading the one person they're supposed to have a handle over, or they're making an attempt to mislynch a slot of someone with meta authority that they

had

but didn't want to pull because they would peg them immediately if they tried to pull something like that and you bring down holy hellfire down in response. The fact that orc let this slide showed that he was more interested in burying it because he felt he would be able to discredit bauss/push things off with a strong power role claim.

Guyett is a stupidly easy lynch and I've decided that I dislike it.

Can you believe orc ever said something like this? We can't, considering the rest of his pushes (with the sole exception of bauss whose push is essentially a delayed OMGUS attempt).

pressure votes don't work if you say that it's a pressure vote so there is actually no reason for 901

899 is just parroting what i just said in the hopes of getting towncred for ocntributing

841 is a load of fence and i think your ass should be hurting by now

First attack is an attack for not having optimal scumhunting strategies which is dumb.
And the fencesitting comment was attacking Sakura for what was a little too transparent (inb4fencesitting) bit which is one of the easiest things to attack that I've ever seen. It's essentially taking an attack that was given to him even though it's not the type of thing that scum generally do.

you told us before that you lied about reads to pull gambits

why then didn't you lie about your read on me

There's a lot wrong with this statement. "I lied once for a gambit" doesn't mean that "I lie when I don't know what to do" and the whole reason that fencesitting is a scumtell is because it's either A) leaving options open so she can push mislynches or defend him later, or B) too bad at scum to fake reads. Telling her to fake reads defeats the purpose of the fencesitting scumtell. There's also the possibility that this was a sarcastic statement, but that's just discrediting setting up for a later push.

Are you caught up?

Sakura is keeping her cards a lot closer than she used to. Nacho will probably have a stronger opinion than I do, but I liked her push on you, and I like that she called bauss out for not going after his strongest read.

you are talking to me

so i'm assuming you disagree with sakura's push?

and for the love of god I CALLED BAUSS OUT for that and she parroted


fuck this game

He acted like Sakura sheeping his point (admittedly his best point) was some revolutionary shit that was actually worthy of some significant complaint, but it really wasn't :/. It wasn't like Bauss was an easy target, and it wasn't like there was any need for her to push that point in a significant way.

Ok so why should be considering policy lynching RC when you've supposedly caught scum?

i really hope you don't breed.

because i and everyone else can always be wrong about our reads and because some people have disagreed with my read on you

by your desperation on discrediting me i assume that i am not, however, wrong this time.

I don't understand how this is discrediting at all, actually. Wondering why you would go for the RC policy lynch over the strong scumread was a valid question!

1) selective quoting
2) opportunistic testing waters
3) deliberately obtuse

1) The selective quoting is usually for reading pleasure as opposed to anything else. The words that she left out had absolutely nothing to do with her point of "why wasn't this your original response".
2) Opportunistic testing waters was bullshit, assuming that it refers to your earlier fencesitting bit.
3) Deliberately obtuse is the worst reasoning for anything ever, and is scum's favorite reason in order to attack someone whose logic they think they can beat.

the thing is i once downplayed a player for being too stupid once to be scum

she flipped scum

mara in our first game together

NEVER AGAIN

Is this supposed to cover up all of his "this is bad" attacks instead of "this is scummy attacks" that you've dropped on the thread? I can see freaking out over things that are exceptionally bad, but you're attacking things that are sort of scummy and weaving them into horrible, horrible things.

you know what i'm not even going to bother with this game anymore

it's tough for me to care about a game as town these days

and when i put in the effort and get flashwagoned for no fucking reason

i give up

you guys earn a big fat finger up your collective asses.

This was scummy because it was so premature; orc is stubborn as hell and when he latches onto something, it takes a hell of a lot more than a bad wagon on him in order to force him to shit down completely.

Toomai and JS but let's be honest I really don't care.

There is no case on me and I'm getting scumread for freaking out when I really don't want to be lynched

These two quotes don't make sense together, and they are only a few pieces apart. Orc knows that he has two motivations: motivation as cop to survive, and motivation as townorc the player to impart some sanity to the thread before he dies. As town, the motivation overwhelming both of those is to find scum and make them die or set them up to die. The fact that motivation for him as townorc and him with a town wincondition disappears but the cop motivation remains is a sign of scumvenience and nothing else.

#138 and #139 are both the start of the broad strokes analysis we were hoping for, but neither of them scratches the surface of "unfakeable" or even "townleaning". The centerpiece of all the analysis he's given this game is his push on Sakura which is a case that consists of "she's bad" and is more contentless than the case that's been put forth against him in thread so far.

#171, he complains about no one reaching out to him. We try to reach out to him, he spits back out the same piss poor content he had been providing all game. His transition to bauss from bad town to scum has no good trajectory in his ISO; instead, it looks like his read tranferred from bad town to scum when he realized when discrediting wasn't going to work.

I mean there are so many reasons why bauss is scum. The only reason why it took me so long to reach that read was because I was giving him a pass based on past meta failure.

I just hope that he'll stop being so cock-ass sure of himself after he lynches a fucking cop. But I doubt it.

First bit doesn't even make sense with the second bit; it sounds like he's convinced he's scum, but the second bit clearly assumes bauss town (otherwise lynching a cop wouldn't be humbling).

The "lynchers" comment was horrible and I shouldn't even have to get into why.

[sangres]

Simple- you lynch it on Day 4. IN the interim, you don't follow the cop.

And if he flips scum then on day 5 you have 3 players who have been enveloped in a fog of wifom.

We wouldn't be having this conversation if orcinus were playing the game like he's town. Let's say that being a cop screwed up all his normal reactions. The reactions, especially the reactions since claiming, should be screaming outraged PR. They're not.

It's not a perfect comparison for a lot of reasons, including his replace-in, but here's a game where orcinus was town rolecop: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=26883. Day 1 he played a strong game. Day 2 he intentionally scummed up his play a little to avoid being the N2 kill. Compare town-orcinus trying to look a little scummy to this game.

[sangres]

I'll go out on a limb and continue to be suspicious of:
TIP (I literally can't sort him)
Sangres (I've been horribly wrong about both of these players in the past)

[sangres]

The last ten or so pages make me feel nauseous. We've got to hurry up and lynch the scum that is Orcinus. The deadline is approaching. If the Caled lynch goes through and she flips town then I'm going to 'I told you so' every single person on the wagon. A lot.

Everything's going to be okay, I promise.

[sangres]

By the way, sangres, did you build that case together or was it mostly one or the other of you? If the latter, which?

Nacho wrote up the case. When we've been able to talk about this game, most of our recent discussion has been about orcinus. It's a consensus opinion, though I didn't react as strongly to the lyncher post as Nacho did. Nacho had to point out to me that normal game rules don't allow for that kind of win condition.

[sangres]

UNVOTE

We've got more to post.

Don't fucking hammer before we're finish.

You. You of all people should fucking get why leashing is ideal regardless of orcinus's alignment. The fact that you don't is making my prior town as fuck read cry. This isn't the same ffery I faked a cop innocent on in paradox.

I keep coming back to this post because I feel like I'm missing something. What does your fake cop inno gambit in that game have to do with this one?

[sangres]

UNVOTE

We've got more to post.

Don't fucking hammer before we're finish.

You. You of all people should fucking get why leashing is ideal regardless of orcinus's alignment. The fact that you don't is making my prior town as fuck read cry. This isn't the same ffery I faked a cop innocent on in paradox.

I keep coming back to this post because I feel like I'm missing something. What does your fake cop inno gambit in that game have to do with this one?

It was merely an indicator of my townread on you being less strong than it was at its peak in this game.

Ok. Though I never really understood how your read could have been that strong given your protestations about how hard I am to read in other games.

Assume that I'm right and he's scum. How does leaving him alive work out as a net positive? I'm really not seeing it.

[sangres]

I swear to arceus this "lynch the claimed cop" vs. "let scum nightkills sort it the fuck out" debate parallels my RQS about leashing a SK. But several players flipped their answers... Which is interesting. Let me go grab the responses.

The point of leashing an SK is that they have a confirmable killing people power that sorts people out with 100% reliability, and the night actions used during the night aren't completely useless when they flip anti-town. The cop question is something else entirely.

[sangres]

Assume that I'm right and he's scum. How does leaving him alive work out as a net positive? I'm really not seeing it.

Giving him multiple days means he at most clears like one buddy, which will be evident when said town clears don't start popping up dead. I think somebody else said this already, let me see if I can find it.

How many game days does town have to fuck around?

[sangres]

Town

likeabauss - mostly because of the conviction of his meta read. If he's scum and Rank/orcinus is town, then he's engineered this mislynch, not just backed it, and he'll have no credibility at all ever in an emphatic meta-based read of Rank among this player list and among any player who metas this game. I can't see him pushing a mislynch in this particular manner. I just can't. And if Orcinus is scum, I can't see him going for such an early bus based purely on meta to start with.

Cephrir - Ceph is one of those paradoxical players who look more town as scum than they do as town. In ffery's first game with him (amnesiac), she spent most of her time in the game thinking he was scum because his stances looked hedgy, his reads looked bad, and some of the stuff he said just reeked with scummitude. The nail in the coffin was his berating the hypothetical doc about not protecting "obvtown" her on night 1 when she turned up dead on day 2. When he's scum, he looks more decisive and his reads look more thought out and sensible. The one small niggle is that ceph knows what we look for in his town and scum games and he has tried (with some success) to modify those behaviors when we're in the player list. But, we've found that he winds up looking a little stilted as a result.

Hermy - newbsorter says this is self-righteous newbtown. This read is so strong that it's all but sort and never look back.

Less Town

Sakura - A lot of things are being kept underneath the surface, even for a new playstyle. But we think that the confrontations that she has gotten herself into have been indications of Sakura town; for the majority of them (read: orc) there have been easy outs, easy ways to back away. But she hasn't taken any of them. #988 "I've done all I can to be town in this thread" also rang very strongly townie to us, although there are a few niggles with regards to the iceberg beneath the surface.

MVP - His trajectory on orcinus is a little off. His early read seemed to be purely based on Bauss' meta read. When we asked him why he was scumreading orcinus a few pages ago he said it was based on orcinus post-claim play and didn't mention reasons for suspecting orcinus prior to the claim.

Angry Frat BROs - weak read, mostly based on his emotional reactions to Bauss and to his wagon.

Guyett - His reaction to his wagon looks decently town. This read is growing stale because lurking.

MC Maraca - Didn't like the yessiree meta case that was never really put out there for the cat to sniff. Also don't like the Sakura vote. But, his outrage over what he sees as a failure to follow solid mafia theory looks town. So does his calling out ffery for being hypocritical about paradox prime, though ffery totally fails to see any parallels in the situations.

TiP - Probably will be able to leave this read to MC Maraca, but not sure. We found him latching onto a lurking easy target as "confirmed town" to be shutting down options for no clear reason from a scumTiP perspective, although his early reachout to Bauss/Rank was sort of strange (we rarely see him do that kind of thing, if ever). TiP pushing for a utility lynch is in and of itself an incredibly strange thing and he dodged MVP's question of why he would push something like that and ended up dropping it very quickly. His excitement at seeing orc claimed seemed very genuine. "If I'm alive tomorrow, I have shit to say" (who would NK TiP) is strange. Would lean scum if not for endorsement.

yessiree - His arguments for the orcinus wagon look town, though his earlier play was meh. He may move to top tier town depending on orcinus' flip.

Toomai - content looks pretty town. Putting caled at L-1 is a flag if she's town and orcinus is scum. Read could go stale given activity.

Leftovers

caledfwitch - the big concern is the tunneling of Guyett. There's an inconsistency to the trajectory we posted about in 1852

JacobSavage - Lurkfuckery and the bauss vote

Peregrine - ISO includes getting pinged on an early MVP question for no discernible reason that transitioned to a few easy hops onto random wagons. His current push shows uncomfortableness with the orc wagon while pushing for the Guyett lynch he seemed to have conviction for earlier, which is bad regardless of orc's flip (scum, distancing but not pushing wagon. town, trying to push a different wagon but nothing viable).

RC - He is known as more of tryhard as scum, lurks like fucking crazy as town. He sometimes gets a little more involved when he latches onto something, but here he's latching onto Bauss like a leech and mimicking pretty much everything he says, while passing it off like it's his own original thought. We thought his "Frat BROs is my stronger read, but I guess I can settle for claimed cop orcinus" was suspiciously in step with Bauss's own thoughts, although I did sort of like his "normally I would claim cop here" shtick.

orcinus_theoriginal - see case in post 1943

[sangres]

MVP, what do you think of #1989? It's pretty much the only reason we're contemplating not voting orc today.

[sangres]

also fucking nacho is just going to guilty me every time we play now

you're goddamn silly

</3

vote orcinus

[sangres]

Toomai, what's your graph looking like?

[sangres]

You'll see, Cephrir.

[sangres]

I'm not letting her use the VI card to justify cutting the day phase short.

That seems an incredibly transparent way to shorten the day with an incredibly tiny benefit.

[sangres]

Dude please never change the graph thing

[sangres]

it'e fucking great

[sangres]

Incidentally, I'm kinda leaning towards 2106 being maybe a coaching effort to tell a less-competent scumbuddy to prehammer.

the three man quickhammer seems a bit excessive to cut down discussion; it wasn't actually THAT big of a deal that orc got to self-hammer

[sangres]

What were the drops in the TiP scumread about?

[sangres]

I know!

[sangres]

don't you prod me

[sangres]

Cephir and sangres are obviously not engineering or mathematics grads for appreciating a graph that's missing axis labels and titles

I can appreciate the towniness of it; I don't give a shit about axis or titles or anything like that.

Why do I not want 80% the players in this game anywhere near lylo?

It's a game where reaching LyLo is a very very bad thing.

Its appalling. Trademark easy mislynch wagon driven by scum

Got anything better for me, Guyett?

(although the lack of sangres/MC Maraca is uncomfortable)

In what?

I think this one is my favourite... If you highly doubted he was scum why follow him?

What

[sangres]

Vote: Guyett

This lynch excites me more than other lynches again. Although JacobSavage can die whenever he's meant to die.

[sangres]

Townblock (mostly in order):

Angry Frat BROs
Cephrir
TheIrishPope
sangres
Toomai

Sort Pile:

yessiree
Hermy
JacobSavage
PeregrineV
RadiantCowbells
Guyett


This is kinda where I'm at right now, in light of recent events.

Why is yessirree in your sort pile?

[sangres]

Townblock (mostly in order):

Angry Frat BROs
Cephrir
TheIrishPope
sangres
Toomai

Sort Pile:

yessiree
Hermy
JacobSavage
PeregrineV
RadiantCowbells
Guyett


This is kinda where I'm at right now, in light of recent events.

Why is yessirree in your sort pile?

What are you implying?

That I'm a little surprised he's not in the other pile.

Do you disagree?

[sangres]

Why is yessirree in your sort pile?

The rest of my townreads are stronger, and I put the divider there. As I noted, he's the one I'd bump up the quickest. I'd love some outside input, if you have something to add?

It's my first game with him. I've thought that his game has a town-looking assertiveness and don't-care-what-you think feel that I also associate more with town than scum.

[sangres]

Yessiree has done nothing to make me think he's Town.

Has he done stuff to make you think he's scum?

[sangres]

I just scanned his ISO, but I'm going to have to reread the thread in detail to find some of the stuff I'm remembering. I remember him posting things that I thought "yeah I see why he thinks that", especially late day 1 and early day 2.

It's after 2 am for me. I'll have to wait until tomorrow to go back through that part of the thread.

[sangres]

Having the same thought process means you're the same alignment?

The stuff I'm thinking about was not stuff I agreed with. But, I could see how it could come from a town thought process.

[sangres]

No, which is why I asked you why he would be in a townlist.

This post was in reply to RC telling him that RC didn't like his post 1247 which was a case for JS being scum.

you know what? your opinion doesn't matter

if i were a vig i'd vig ur ass so we dont have the breathe the same air

The case itself was good. The cheeky response to RC's empty sniping was even better.


And this was good too.

Frat Bros get mad when called dicks

but it's okay for them to call others retards and assholes

#logic

This has nothing at all to do with the game and only serves to piss people off.

The name's Rustle, Jimmy Rustle.

Do you bite your thumb at me sir?

No concern at all for pissing off critics.

There is no reason for the orc wagon to diffuse right now.

He's just trying to lurk it out while using "calming his head" as an excuse until the attention is diverted elsewhere.

I still would like a JS lynch but orc lynch has my support if needed.

I don't think this post came from an orc partner. Technically it could be considered soft bussing but he's not focusing on "orc bad". He's focusing on "unvoters bad" and that doesnt feel like a bus.

orc's response is not genuine, orc's emotion is not genuine, orc's claim is not genuine

lynch him today

This post nailed everything that was wrong about orcinus in this game in three short sentences.

i dont want to try in this game anymore

I don't see this post coming from scum either. Scum thrive on town apathy, but pointing it up is the first step to addressing it.

And I loved his trajectory on and off Toomai. The reasons for both were crystal clear from thread context. I totally disagreed with the vote when I saw it, but the reasons were solid and town.

Yessiree is a player you read via timing and momentum of posts as much or more than the words he puts into the thread.

[sangres]

since I'm expecting a bit bigger of a presence from ffery.

You evidently can't tell my posts from Nacho's.

[sangres]

Also, I rule you drool.

[sangres]

VOTE: Toomai

Toomai, you know you're better than this

UNVOTE:

You spammed the thread up pretty good on day 1, BRO.

[sangres]

Look at the cute little stray quotes!

[sangres]

The fuck is this shit

[sangres]

One-shot vig, we killed caled night 1.

[sangres]

I'm incredibly sad that we can't insta-lynch RC for lying, but will probably settle on doing that anyways.

[sangres]

I'm incredibly sad that we can't insta-lynch RC for lying, but will probably settle on doing that anyways.

why is RC lying?
Would mafia doctor and town vig make sense in the same setup?

Yes, but town cop and town gunsmith don't at all.

[sangres]

Actually, I'm having a change of heart with respect to how I'm approaching this whole claim situation. We have three invstigative roles out and we have the option to ensure at least one of them, assuming one is fake, probably gets another night. That's better than anything I'm going to do. And I'm afraid of the possibility I'll die tonight while scumdoc AFB potentially (not for sure that he's scum but if he is I get fucking wrecked) saves the person I am 99% sure is scum. Meanwhile I don't think I'm breadcrumbing effectively and the people I think are probably town aren't the people who are going to see breadcrumbs and act on them. So, fuck it.

I killed caledfwitch.

VOTE: Sangres

p-edit: yep you're damn right

I'm immensely pleased you outted yourself. Ffery and I were going to use our free day in order to attempt to lynch you, although that was going to be impressively difficult.

[sangres]

Ffery found Cephrir's kill tell Day 2, we shot at him Night 2.
He didn't die, and I seriously seriously doubt he was protected.

[sangres]

So you're claiming scum but also saying that he's SK.

Smart!

[sangres]

And that's why you guys have a mafia doctor?

To counteract the SK?

I can't imagine any other reason for a mafia doctor.

[sangres]

inb4 sangres/orci/MCM/AFB scumteam (holy fuck this sounds scary) and JS SK.

I called it first.

-L. J.

I'll just leave this here.