Left 4 Dead Mafia! (Game Over!)

[Zdenek]

@zdenek: shoe me where I said I want a CC from anyone against dan's hunter claim

vezok, vezok

ActionDan claimed Hunter for all those not paying attention.
I have no idea why people immediately assumed his claim is true. If anyone wants to step up for a counterclaim now is the chance.

In that context my statement made sense.
If someone CCed his claim then we had a scum in the bag. Not all people had posted then.
I thought you were saying I asked for a CC a long time after the claim.
And if I was scum and asking for a CC then that would've meant AD was my buddy who was fakeclaiming. Does that make any sense to you?

You knew there were multiple herders, so I don't see why you thought and apparently still think that there can only be one hunter.

[Zdenek]

Heeelloooo

so basicly we just outed who the scum team should protect

good job everyone

hmm?

Zdenek why do you think i was dodging rubicon

Sorry? I'm not sure what you are referring to.

and

Unvote
Vote: Vezok

[Zdenek]

If you go back to around that time in the game there was a wagon forming on Rubicon that you ignored.

[Zdenek]

doesnt mean that im scum though,

this just looks like scum caught for for the wrong reasons

[Zdenek]

Mod: I'm going to be V/LA Monday-Wednesday. Please don't replace me.

[Zdenek]

I anticipate having time to catch-up tomorrow.

[Zdenek]

Vote: PV

[Zdenek]

Ugh.

Mafia 101 says lnch bb.
I'm not sure that I want to though.

Any amn-cop should claim.

[Zdenek]

I can literally prove he's lying.

Why did you have to lie here?

[Zdenek]

Fuck

[Zdenek]

Well my brain says lynch BB, heart says Alpazard.
I also don't have town reads on either Majiffy or Pidgey.

[Zdenek]

Well my brain says lynch BB, heart says Alpazard.
I also don't have town reads on either Majiffy or Pidgey.

why does your brain tell you to lynch molla

Because Peregrine told us BB is scum and BB said that he could prove Peregrine was lying, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[Zdenek]

I can literally prove he's lying.

Why did you have to lie here?

I don't see a lie.

How has BB proved that Peregrine was lying?

[Zdenek]

Well okay with a mass-claim, it's possible.

[Zdenek]

If BB and Pere are both town, the worst reaction to the contradicting claims was Sekai No Ki's.

[Zdenek]

I can literally prove he's lying.

Why did you have to lie here?

I don't see a lie.

How has BB proved that Peregrine was lying?

Molla: "I am Cop. There is no Amn cop"
PV: "Amn cop told me Molla is scum"
Molla: "What is the Amn cop's flavor?"
PV: *crickets*

Don't make me go paranoid on you. This is really fucking straightforward.

That's not proof. The mass-claiming not amn-cop is though.

[Zdenek]

If BB and Pere are both town, the worst reaction to the contradicting claims was Sekai No Ki's.

Link me please.

It's where they go off and decide to evaluate whether bb makes sense as a Mastin partner.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p5763716
decides yes
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p5763855
Role-fishes
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p5764014
tries to cover up role-fishing
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p5764023
decides to vote PV without the same due diligence they were just applying to bb moments ago
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p5764068

[Zdenek]

Jesus fucking christ fine.

I'm not Amn cop. Zdenek-The-Retard, you're next.

I'm actually assuming that every one who has posted isn't the amn-cop, and that only leaves LeMidget.

[Zdenek]

Depends on which angle: Are we going from the angle that scum had an idea of what was happening because they somehow sent PV a fake report, or that PV was just straight up lying?

I'm not sure why you think it makes a difference. I just read it as fake scum hunting and role fishing.

[Zdenek]

Inb4 PV is a lyncher

This could very well be coming from scum who knows that both PV and BB are town.

[Zdenek]

Ho ahead and look for more stupid shit in my iso, but noted that you ignore majiffy (who is now voting me lol) saying that it was a likely possibility.

That's not the same as being the person who suggested it. I'm not sure how much I care about that though, since I think Sekai looks worse there than you.

[Zdenek]

So why the comment to Aegor?

[Zdenek]

Ok this is good.
Posts 2793-2802, we have snk questioning bbmolla about his role. Questioning that led them to conclude that bbmolla was useful to the town and that PV should be lynched first.

Post 2804, aegor votes PV.

Post 2809, snk calls out aegor over voting PV. When that's what was in line with their thinking.

On top of that, what did snk have to say about aegor previously?

TOWNTOWNTOWN

GIF
Zdenek
Aegor
Action Dan
PeregrineV

Basically, they tried to undermine a town read for changing votes quickly on to someone who they agreed should be the lynch.

I'm sold.

Vote: sekai no ki

[Zdenek]

This post?

Exactly what it says. I felt like a ton of caution was called for given bbmolla's two previous amnesiac cop results, Aegor's posting looked more reactive and less I dunno - thoughtful than the situation called for.

but it came after your questioning of bbmolla about his role, and aegor came to the same conclusion as you.
I'm inclined to think that if you really thought that caution was necessary, you'd have asked him to unvote rather than making a snide comment about him being quick to vote bb.

[Zdenek]

Not undermine a town read. Reconsider the read in light of his day 4 trajectory around conflicting claims.

You're going to need to be way more precise if you expect me to understand what you are getting at here.

[Zdenek]

I'm sold.

Vote: sekai no ki

Can we horde Pidgey tonight then?

could you bullet why you want to lynch pidgey?

[Zdenek]

quick vote on the guy who'd evidently been trusted enough to get two results from a cop, and was instrumental in two scum lynches

There was a claim that he was scum, so I don't why you cared that much about this.

and then a poorly telegraphed change when the winds went the other direction.

then after the your questioning of bb he came to the same conclusion as you, so this just looks like bs.

Who do you want to lynch?

[Zdenek]

Cog dis

where's this?

[Zdenek]

Re your other questions, my reads usually have a timing/tone/progression focus. Aegor's posts yesterday hit several off-notes. It was enough to hit my radar, and I wanted it in the game thread for future days.

The trouble is that I don't believe you because based on your responses it seems to me that at least Aegor's vote on PV should have rung true to you, and that's exactly the thing that you called him out for.

[Zdenek]

Cog dis

where's this?

Idk it just sounded nice so I threw it in there.

Pidgey is a fucking scumbutt, go read his goddamn ISO! And go read mine with a ctrl+f on Pidgey! Christ.

I've done that with yours.

[Zdenek]

Re your other questions, my reads usually have a timing/tone/progression focus. Aegor's posts yesterday hit several off-notes. It was enough to hit my radar, and I wanted it in the game thread for future days.

The trouble is that I don't believe you because based on your responses it seems to me that at least Aegor's vote on PV should have rung true to you, and that's exactly the thing that you called him out for.

I quoted his PV vote, but it's not what I called him out for.

You're right. I misspoke. You snidely suggested that your towntowntown read was throwing his vote around when he moved his vote onto someone who you agreed was the correct lynch for the day.

[Zdenek]

Re your other questions, my reads usually have a timing/tone/progression focus. Aegor's posts yesterday hit several off-notes. It was enough to hit my radar, and I wanted it in the game thread for future days.

The trouble is that I don't believe you because based on your responses it seems to me that at least Aegor's vote on PV should have rung true to you, and that's exactly the thing that you called him out for.

I quoted his PV vote, but it's not what I called him out for.

You're right. I misspoke. You snidely suggested that your towntowntown read was throwing his vote around when he moved his vote onto someone who you agreed was the correct lynch for the day.

It's like vote timing considerations aren't a thing to you?

They are and his seemed normal to me, and moreover, based on what you've said, they should also seem normal to you.

[Zdenek]

Shit reads

Which reads of his do you think make him scum or at least which do you have the most problem with?

[Zdenek]

They didn't. I was obviously wrong about it.

I get that it is possibility. It's why I tried to get you to talk about who you wanted to lynch today.

[Zdenek]

If it's only one read that you have a problem with, you should probably just say that.

[Zdenek]

Jesus fucking Christ ok if you aren't actually going to read I'm not going to fucking bother with you.

I'm just trying to figure out why you want to lynch pidgey, and since you've already proven that you're willing to push the lynch with bullshit you can expect that I'm going to question you on it.

[Zdenek]

Idk it just sounded nice so I threw it in there.

Oh dear.

[Zdenek]

Idk it just sounded nice so I threw it in there.

Oh dear.

Time away has not made me feel any better about how completely fucking bad you are at this game.

When you make cases and tack shit on to them because you think it sounds good and then call me bad, it just makes me want to lynch you.

[Zdenek]

Oh also Sekai No Ki is scum for wanting to lynch Majiffy and not calling him out on his fake scum hunting.

[Zdenek]

Stop being fucking worthless.

[Zdenek]

It's occurred to me that scum-BB would know that scum have a messenger, so a mass claim wouldn't prove that PV was lying and I am back to wanting to know how BB planned to prove that Peregrine was lying.

[Zdenek]

Explain how I'm wrong.

[Zdenek]

I'm mean it's a somewhat insane gambit, but I'm not going to auto-clear bb because of it.

[Zdenek]

and I want to know how you got from this:

lynch one, if we are wrong we horde the other

to questioning bb is scummy.

[Zdenek]

1, If molla is scum and if scum have a messenger why would they ever send BBmolla = scum? THats the last fucking name any scum team with molla in it would send because they have been investing alot in keeping him clear (bussing 2 teammates)

2, If there was a scum messenger why did PV hesitate to disclose the flavor?

3, He is an uncounter claimed cop

As far as 3 goes, bb had claimed there was an amnesiac cop. If there was also a real cop that claim would have drawn it out.

As for 1 & 2, what do you think happened?

[Zdenek]

Your point?
I'm not voting him.

[Zdenek]

Your point?
I'm not voting him.

you are trying to create doubt on molla

It would be game-winning move for scum, so I'm not going to give him a pass.

[Zdenek]

Your point?
I'm not voting him.

you are trying to create doubt on molla

It would be game-winning move for scum, so I'm not going to give him a pass.

What is this genius game winning move? Molla busses 2 teammates and then Molla get bussed by the remaining invicible team?

THERE IS NO COUNTER CLAIM, UNTIL THERE IS HE IS OUR COP

The town-cred is enough to get him through LYLO and being role-blocked from now to the end of the game explains why scum haven't killed him.

Why are you assuming that there must be a cop in the game?

[Zdenek]

Claiming amn-cop potentially outs any real cop setting up the possibility for the claim and PV reporting a guilty on Molla sets up the situation where Molla actually needs to claim.

[Zdenek]

Have you ever played a game of this size without a cop?

Yes.

But you are saying that the scum team sent PV the info that molla was scum

Yes because otherwise Molla would have no reason to claim.

WHy are you not aanswering how little sense you logic makes?

I'm saying that I think it's very likely, but I don't see why you think it's impossible.

[Zdenek]

sorry I'm not saying that I think it's very likely . . .

[Zdenek]

Are you saying that you've never played in a mafia game without a cop?

[Zdenek]

And I am saying that until a counterclaim or lylo I wont consider molla to be scum

That's fine, but I don't care.

[Zdenek]

You thinking that I am scum for this is very wrong headed.

[Zdenek]

One of the survivors is Rochelle, a news anchor, which is flavourwise could fit with a messenger.

[Zdenek]

Do you have meta that suggests that PV is likely to pull a gambit like that?

[Zdenek]

My point is that scum very well could have a messenger.

[Zdenek]

Only when he flipped VT did that become the only possibility. I would never ever asssume that that is what happened. Would you?

I'm not sure.
In your situation, assuming that you've told the truth, there are a couple of things I would have done differently.
For instance the fact that you called him "wrong" about the flavour when he refused to give it doesn't make much sense.

[Zdenek]

Yesterday, why did you claim that you're a power role?

[Zdenek]

Well, I'd be happier if you'd just pushed the I can prove he's lying line. There's little chance you'd get another action in after claiming PR again.

[Zdenek]

But you knew that was impossible.

[Zdenek]

You guys underestimate how stubborn I was about not letting a supposed Traitor PV trying to out the amn cop succeed.

You telling me how stubborn you are about trying to stop something from happening that you knew could never happen does not fill me with confidence.

The only off note was characterizing my post to Aegor as "snide" which he did fairly late in our back-and-forth.

Oh you mean that one thing you did that makes no sense from your point of view. I'm shocked.

we cant have people doubting the clearest players.

If you can't see that there is something wrong with what BB is saying, then I can't help you.

[Zdenek]

Well, your scum, so laa dee daa.

[Zdenek]

Majiffy, kindly explain how in god's name it makes any sense for BB to be stubborn about preventing something that he knew couldn't happen.

[Zdenek]

Vote him then.

No. There's something wrong with it, but lynching BB today would be still be stupid.

[Zdenek]

Majiffy, kindly explain how in god's name it makes any sense for BB to be stubborn about preventing something that he knew couldn't happen.

Oh I see why you're confused, I equivocate outting amn cop with outting actual cop, with that in mind go read what I said

Well I no longer think that you've lost your mind.

And SNK, remember,

Re your other questions, my reads usually have a timing/tone/progression focus. Aegor's posts yesterday hit several off-notes. It was enough to hit my radar, and I wanted it in the game thread for future days.

The trouble is that I don't believe you because based on your responses it seems to me that at least Aegor's vote on PV should have rung true to you, and that's exactly the thing that you called him out for.

I quoted his PV vote, but it's not what I called him out for.

You're right. I misspoke. You snidely suggested that your towntowntown read was throwing his vote around when he moved his vote onto someone who you agreed was the correct lynch for the day.

It's like vote timing considerations aren't a thing to you?

They are and his seemed normal to me, and moreover, based on what you've said, they should also seem normal to you.

[Zdenek]

So you're expecting me to think like you think.

You should know I don't based on prior games. I respect that sometimes your thought process results in something closer to reality, but not always. And I don't remember you trying to convince me that my observation yesterDay was wrong at the time, anyway. Nor was I pursuing an Aegor lynch. I saw something that pinged and I remarked upon it.

Nope. I expect town to not try to undermine their town reads. I don't really know when you expected me to comment yesterday - I was away at the deadline. Maybe you just saw something that pinged, which is why I asked you about who you wanted to lynch today. You said Majiffy (which is awesome), but then gave me some bullshit about how you shouldn't be allowed near LYLO - well, if there's 5 scum total, MYLO could be tomorrow, so I don't think you really believe that. Anyway, what have you done regarding Majiffy today? Ask him about his town reads. While it's not ignoring him, it is pretty much you sitting on the sidelines.

[Zdenek]

So you're expecting me to think like you think.

You should know I don't based on prior games. I respect that sometimes your thought process results in something closer to reality, but not always. And I don't remember you trying to convince me that my observation yesterDay was wrong at the time, anyway. Nor was I pursuing an Aegor lynch. I saw something that pinged and I remarked upon it.

Nope. I expect town to not try to undermine their town reads.

I don't really know when you expected me to comment yesterday - I was away at the deadline. Maybe you just saw something that pinged, which is why I asked you about who you wanted to lynch today. You said Majiffy (which is awesome), but then gave me some bullshit about how you shouldn't be allowed near LYLO - well, if there's 5 scum total, MYLO could be tomorrow, so I don't think you really believe that. Anyway, what have you done regarding Majiffy today? Ask him about his town reads. While it's not ignoring him, it is pretty much you sitting on the sidelines.

This is my problem with you, with regards to BBmolla.

Well, I would say that the difference is Molla was saying things that didn't make any sense, so for me to question him on them made sense; whereas for snk, they seemed to have arrived at the same conclusion as Aegor, and so their comment on his vote switching didn't make sense.

[Zdenek]

Ok then you get the same challenge as Majiffy. Explain how it made sense for BB to stubbornly try to stop PV from getting the amn-cop to claim, when he knew there is no amn-cop. Also, you don't get to appeal to BB saying that by amn-cop he meant cop, since those aren't the same thing.

[Zdenek]

Sven, do you think there are scum in the lurkers?

[Zdenek]

Nope.

1, If molla is scum and if scum have a messenger why would they ever send BBmolla = scum? THats the last fucking name any scum team with molla in it would send because they have been investing alot in keeping him clear (bussing 2 teammates)

2, If there was a scum messenger why did PV hesitate to disclose the flavor?

3, He is an uncounter claimed cop

I give you the challange of actually answering this without sending the question back like you did last time.

The only answer you submited was to number 1, where you said that a amn cop claim could have drawn out the cop, that was day 3, its now day 5 and there is still no counterclaim.

I don't know why you think I can read Pere's mind.

Mafia games don't need to have cops.

[Zdenek]

Sven, do you think there are scum in the lurkers?

I do, you?

Now who is answering questions with questions. I'm not the one pushing people to vote lurkers.

[Zdenek]

Llink me to a game this size without a cop.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16341

[Zdenek]

ROLENAME COP IS NOT A FUCKING ALIGNMENT COP.

[Zdenek]

Oh, I missed you saying I do to the the lurkers. I thought "nope" was your answer to that.

The only thing that gives me pause about lynching lurkers is that with the games mechanic the way that it is and the way that things have worked out, there is strong incentive for scum to not lurk.

When it comes to Alp. I think that Thor's meta argument that they could be town has some merit, but I also think that if Notscience is aware of his meta then the likelihood of that being a town-tell goes down.

GiF, I thought was scummy earlier. I don't think he's a lurker though. Nothing recent stands out, and I should probably go back and look at him at some point.

LeMidget - I think that the case that Toog made on me is one that scum would be hesitant to make, but that's all I have on that slot.

[Zdenek]

saying I do to the the lurkers

Most boring poly-amorous wedding ever

[Zdenek]

Bbmolla claimed cop, no counterclaims

After all of that, you still think that the fact there have been no counter-claims is worth mentioning?
I don't see how.

[Zdenek]

I think there are some herder claims aswell.

Aegor, Bulba, Vezok - all dead.

[Zdenek]

majiffy

The only bad lynches right now would be Zdenek and Majiffy.

How are you town reading Majiffy?

[Zdenek]

You're can tell me why too.

[Zdenek]

he has been a positive overall force

How?

[Zdenek]

Expression of actual thought?

LOL

Also LOL at me tunneling on Majiffy.

And LOL at you reading Majiffy based on meta that you haven't checked.

[Zdenek]

I just ISO'd actiondan, and I don't want to lynch him. I mean he's null, but I think we can do better.
Onward and onward.

[Zdenek]

I don't think Alp is scum either.

[Zdenek]

So, I'm now down with lynching Alp. Notscience is active in other threads, but not here.

[Zdenek]

Cool let's do it

Uh, no. I was hoping that saying something would get their attention, but notsci's clearly ignoring the thread. The bottom line is that there's the meta-town case on him, there's the fact that Thor was pushing it, and Thor's dead. So Alpa is not a good lynch.

[Zdenek]

Since we are at odds, we probably shouldn't submit any more names for horde-killings.

[Zdenek]

GiF starting off strong and now lurking is worse than Alp.

Plus GiF is actually scummy. His willingness to immediately cooperate with Alpa really makes no sense at that moment.

[Zdenek]

So is mastin scum for not doing the rvs readlist?

There is no reason for him to make this post. He's defending Mastin and providing a (weak) reason for why someone might be scum reading him.

No, but I can be scum for being super-serious and actually explaining my reads in as much detail as humanly possible.

So I just caught you for wrong reason. Noted!

Early on he thinks that he caught Mastin, but doesn't vote.

Even though his posts are pretty generic, I find him dropping by time to time expressing his thoughts pretty town.

There's this completely fake reason to town read someone.

His reads of notsci and pieguyn are based on what I think is an absurdly naive view of meta.

[Zdenek]

Cool let's do it

Uh, no. I was hoping that saying something would get their attention, but notsci's clearly ignoring the thread. The bottom line is that there's the meta-town case on him, there's the fact that Thor was pushing it, and Thor's dead. So Alpa is not a good lynch.

He stated himself when he was wagoned earlier that he "hated it so much" or something when he was getting lynched as town, following that reasoning i´d want him in here being pissed off. Please epand on how lurker ns is town ns.

I never said that.

[Zdenek]

I'm referring to his earlier reaction. I don't even know if he saw my comment. The deadline is coming up, so I didn't want to keep that hanging any more.

[Zdenek]

Cool let's do it

Uh, no. I was hoping that saying something would get their attention, but notsci's clearly ignoring the thread. T

he bottom line is that there's the meta-town case on him

, there's the fact that Thor was pushing it, and Thor's dead. So Alpa is not a good lynch.

He stated himself when he was wagoned earlier that he "hated it so much" or something when he was getting lynched as town, following that reasoning i´d want him in here being pissed off. Please epand on how lurker ns is town ns.

I never said that.

Okay, so what meta town case are you reffering to?

You clearly know what I am talking about. I mean you just commented about it.

[Zdenek]

Defending him to voting him?

I read your alpazard ISO. He posts that kind of shit as town sometimes. Why is it indicative he's scum this time?

[Zdenek]

Amalgamated Reads Update

TOWNTOWNTOWN

GIF
Zdenek
Aegor
Action Dan
PeregrineV

Town

BBMolla
AngryPidgeon
Svenskt
Bulbazak
Sweating Chessball
Alpazard
Vesok (neither of us are fully convinced by the claim, so he's teetering on the brink between low-tier town and null)

Maybe Town

Rubicon
dopog
Nero Cain
Pidgey
majiffy

Not So Town

Mastin
RedCoyote
Thor

[Zdenek]

Now can we please lynch the scum-bag Sekai No Ki?

[Zdenek]

Yep.

Read has changed, which the perceptive player would have noticed when I posted 3240.

So why did you choose to vote when you did?

[Zdenek]

Well, days two and three were almost a wash for new information.

[Zdenek]

So what gelled?

[Zdenek]

I'll admit that Alpalurcksackterrible's meta has somewhat sold me. It's not as cut and dry as he claimed, but he does seem to normally react differently as scum to the point I don't want him lynched despite his poor play.

Alpaca/GIF/Ffery/Majiffy/SCB are all good scumpicks I think.

Alp isn't - don't you remember the meta defense. if I bother to not be lazy people need to bother to remember the results of my work.

Same goes for you Zed.

I did meta research to clear Alpaca pretty hard. Please either disprove my research or pay better attention to the thread. I strongly oppose that choice.

[Zdenek]

Looking over possible teams, I find it reasonably unlikely that Alpa is scum, unless GiF was bussing day one.

[Zdenek]

The only point in Desp's case on Alpa with any merit in the one about the lack Rubicon interactions.