Mini 1580: EpicMafiaTime [GAME OVER]

[Salamence20]

I saw this on my phone. I couldn't believe it. I ran to my computer just to extinguish this shit

again

I WAS NOT TRYING TO ATTACK/FLAME/PISS off ANYONE.

To tell me that claiming Miller to directly

attack

Jake is bullshit.

ITS FUCKING RVS. I DIDN'T KNOW POKING FUN OVER A YEAR OLD FUCKING GAME WAS GOING TO CAUSE JAKE TO FREAK THE FUCK OUT. ENOUGH.

AGAIN BOOKITTY DID THE SAME THING OVER HC BY RVS VOTING HIM BECAUSE HE WAS SCUM IN A PREVIOUS GAME.

MAYBE WHILE YOU ALL ARE SQUABBLING OVER MY LIES, HOW ABOUT YOU LOOK AT THE TOWN MOTIVATION OF IT: WE GOT OUT OF RVS. HUH HUH HUH.

[Salamence20]

@Sal - what is your read on Bookitty? I'd love to get a read from you hat didn't involve a player that was directly interacting/attacking you already. You feel a little too tunnely for this stage of the game. Let's save the tunnels for the second half of Day 1, or for Day 3 when they're at least funny.

Bookitty is playing like the ordinary Bookitty I know and love. Null-Town for now, same for HC. Red is Null, as are you Mir, Tysker, and generic. Null-Scum are Kthxbai, and scum is TN.

[Generic]

Why, immediately after saying this, did you unvote and not vote him?

I'd rather hear his response first.
---
Lynch all liars is rather bad to hold as a hard rule. It doesn't allow for gambits and often leads to lynching town (because lets face it, townies lie too). Not to mention the lie in question is subjective in that it can be seen different ways by different people.
---

@Tsyker
Do you feel that Generics argument has merit?

What's your opinion? I can't seem to find a single comment from you about me or my posts up until this question.

[Skullduggery]

Day 1, Vote Count #5

(0) RedCoyote
(3) tn5421 -- Bookitty, Salamence20, Haschel Cedricson
(0) d3x
(0) Not Voting
(0) Bookitty
(3) Kthxbye -- Generic, Not Voting, Squirrel Girl
(1) Haschel Cedricson -- RedCoyote
(0) Squirrel Girl
(0) tysker
(0) Mirhawk
(0) Generic
(2) Salamence20 -- Kthxbye, tn5421
(1) Natirasha -- Natirasha

Not Voting: d3x, tysker, Mirhawk

With 13 players remaining, it takes 7 votes to hammer.

Day 1 Will End on Saturday, June 28th, at 7 p.m. eastern time.
Countdown: (expired on 2014-06-28 19:00:00)

d3x is V/LA until 6/23.

Next time, we eat all we can eat at an all-you-can-eat eatery.

.

[Mirhawk]

What's your opinion? I can't seem to find a single comment from you about me or my posts up until this question.

I don't disagree with it per say, but my problem with it is that as town kthanx may still have felt pressure to make his response to the question look good.

You may be right about it being an engineered response, but I'm not sure if that's alignment indicative.

[Generic]

That's fine mirhawk, mafia is all about interpretation and psychological considerations. But what I don't understand is why you need to see the opinions of others before commenting yourself.

That seems like you want to tailor your response to the way public opinion is swaying. When I press you on your own opinion you provide a very measured and valid assessment with a good conclusion, but the fact you felt the need to check with others first is a bit of a red flag.

It's not alignment indicative all on its own. I applied pressure with my initial response but withheld my view, partially because of the way my mind works I was actually not in a good place and was concerned I may get nasty with it but also partially to rattle kthxbyes cage a bit more because he answer given piqued my interest. What followed was a series of discredits, insults, handwaves away from the main subject and attempts to steer focus off it and deflect suspicion back on me.

None of that is alignment neutral. All of that is suspicious. So my vote stands and I advise others to read over kthxbye for themselves.

[Squirrel Girl]

which, by his own admission, was intended to start a fight with Jake

When did he say this?

[Squirrel Girl]

@Sal - what is your read on Bookitty? I'd love to get a read from you hat didn't involve a player that was directly interacting/attacking you already. You feel a little too tunnely for this stage of the game. Let's save the tunnels for the second half of Day 1, or for Day 3 when they're at least funny.

Bookitty is playing like the ordinary Bookitty I know and love. Null-Town for now, same for HC. Red is Null, as are you Mir, Tysker, and generic. Null-Scum are Kthxbai, and scum is TN.

What has HC done that is townish?

[Natirasha]

HC is playing much differently than I remember for what it's worth.

[Generic]

I spy with my little eye something beginning with N...

Nats, you initial opinion of kthxbye please.

[Bookitty]

I don't know what the currently accepted meta for miller claims is, but it seems to me there are only four reasonable responses to a serious miller claim:

1. Accept it on faith and lynch it before LYLO to be safe
2. Accept it on faith and don't lynch it
3. Disbelieve it and lynch it before LYLO
4. Disbelieve it and lynch it right away

Since we were still in RVS, I didn't consider it a serious miller claim. I thought Salamence was having fun. His friendly manner in greeting Jake bore that out, as did Sala's assumption that Jake would treat the miller claim in the fourth way I described above. I didn't see it as taunting. I did think it was a gambit, much like Nati's habit of self-voting in every game I can find with him.

The problem with gambits is that they will catch scum and not-scum pretty much alike. Fake-claiming miller might get some players to vote you as in the fourth way. Others may not have a clue what to do with it at all. This is especially true for those with no prior experience of millers or fake-millers in Mafia.

Just because I assumed Sala was having fun in RVS does not mean that it would be read that way by anyone else. I do wonder if Sala had claimed Bulletproof Miller-Ascetic Two-Shot Vig if that would have been read the same way, though. That would have made the joke aspect more clear, but might have prevented the gambit aspect from working as intended. The issue now is that I can't tell if Mirhawk is really scum or is just reacting to a gambit that looked scummy to begin with. I'm leaning toward the latter right now. TN's response about Haschel trying to make him look bad, however, struck me as quite scummy separate from the issue of millers and non-millers and policy lynch jamboree.

I think Generic is town, but I think he uses the jittery thing more than it merits. Without a clear meta on the playstyle of the people you're judging, I don't think it's that useful. Still, I want to look at kthxbye and his interactions more in-depth to see if I've missed something the first go-round.

I'm not sure if I'll get to that tonight or not, but I will get to it soon.

[Squirrel Girl]

I'm not sure if I'll get to that tonight or not, but I will get to it soon.

I look forward to this.

[RedCoyote]

Nat, what do you mean?

[Mirhawk]

That's fine mirhawk, mafia is all about interpretation and psychological considerations. But what I don't understand is why you need to see the opinions of others before commenting yourself.

That seems like you want to tailor your response to the way public opinion is swaying. When I press you on your own opinion you provide a very measured and valid assessment with a good conclusion, but the fact you felt the need to check with others first is a bit of a red flag.

It's not alignment indicative all on its own. I applied pressure with my initial response but withheld my view, partially because of the way my mind works I was actually not in a good place and was concerned I may get nasty with it but also partially to rattle kthxbyes cage a bit more because he answer given piqued my interest. What followed was a series of discredits, insults, handwaves away from the main subject and attempts to steer focus off it and deflect suspicion back on me.

None of that is alignment neutral. All of that is suspicious. So my vote stands and I advise others to read over kthxbye for themselves.

The motivation behind my question wasn't based so much on interest on your case as it was on interest on where Tsyker stood on it. As I saw it he was commenting on whether kthx had responded to your case without showing any indication as to what his opinion on it was. To be fair I did the same thing , but I still want some solid opinions out of Tsyker.

Your case on K is a little too "feels"y for me, but you elicited some interesting responses. I'm especially interested in discredits, as this is something I actually use when sorting out my own scumreads. I don't recall noting any in K's posts, I would appreciate it if you pointed them out to me.

[Haschel Cedricson]

What's your opinion? I can't seem to find a single comment from you about me or my posts up until this question.

I don't disagree with it per say, but my problem with it is that as town kthanx may still have felt pressure to make his response to the question look good.

You may be right about it being an engineered response, but I'm not sure if that's alignment indicative.

Followup question, even though I didn't ask the first one: What do you think of kthnxbye's reaction to Generic's argument? This question also goes to tysker, to be answered at the same time as Mirhawk's question.

HC is playing much differently than I remember for what it's worth.

Nat, what do you mean?

For what it's worth, unlike the last time I was active in Mafia, I no longer have a job with Internet access all day, I have a six-month-old daughter, and I temporarily live with my parents. This drastically limits the amount of time I can spend reading, rereading, and posting. In fact, I'm sort of treating this game as a test to see if my new lifestyle can handle Mafia at all.

[Mirhawk]

He's fairly dismissive. But to be fair Generic never actually asked him a question, and the case was based on his response to a fluff question.

I don't like the way he throws doubt back at NV over the softclaim thing. He doesn't ask for clarification on NV's opinion, he just calls NV scum. His hypothetical situation feels slimy too.

Aside from that he doesn't really have anything worth analyzing.

[Haschel Cedricson]

He's

fairly

dismissive...

[Mirhawk]

Which is to say he uses a level of dismissiveness that is more then not dismissive at all, and less dismissive then completely dismissing.

[Skullduggery]

Not Voting has been prodded.

[Generic]

Someone asked where he tries to discredit and belittle me:

Ok, let's start with the need you felt you had to fence sit because you had commited to a claim you loved the role and someone cleverly put you on the spot with it.
You knew your meta would flag up a love of scum roles, so sleeady you were on the back foot. Do you cobble together a convoluted answer that admits to such but then desperately tries to claw it back with comments that include a vague remark about sometimes living the theme, and hinting at a PR which you even then desperately try to cover over with the crap about vanilla roles.

So instead of a straight forward 'it was actually the flavour it was excited about' you clearly tried to dig yourself out of a hole.

vote kthxbye

Glad you were so excited about my response though, feel free to give a convoluted answer as to why about that too.

......pfft...bwahahahahahahaha!

thanks mate, I haven't laughed like that since I was a little girl.

Jake's play so far reminds me of his town game.

Red always looks town whether he is scum or not sooooo we shall see.

Not Voting's 102 is baaaaaaaad.

Generic went full retard.

Everyone knows you should never go full retard.

Though I think Not Voting is probs scum for that weak ass vote, I think I will just sheep Jake today.

VOTE: Sal

If youre going to be a sensative sally, you may want to not play an online forum game.

Next it was a movie quote and youll never get an apology from me

when I correctly diagnose your play in this or any game.

Third, pull your pin out and expand on how my posts are scum posts instead of bitching and whining like a baby.

Kthxbye.

First off, I didnt call anyone a retard, I quoted a movie using said quote to explain

what I thought of your thoughts on my response to reds question. There is a difference.

Not my problem if you dont see it.

Next,

lets say I was actually soft claiming something. Why would anyone then try and lynch someone they thoughtwas soft claiming? Oh, scum would very much like that.

Thus is reason why NVs hop onto me is scummy. Why SG is hopping on is yet to be seen but Im not too worried due to her taking over Jakes slot.

Man, you reeealy want a claim outa me dont ya

The second to last one was actually aimed as an explanation to why he chose to focus on NV as scum, and it depends on how you interpret it, but when you consider his follow on remark to me I would say he also aimed that at me. That why I include it. What I find most interesting though is that he chooses to attack my intelligence and ability but considers NV scum motivated. I don't think at any time has kthxbye ever outright suggested I'm scum, yet all responses to me seem designed to imply that.

I will point out that I didn't direct a question because initially I wasn't saying anything detailed about it or Ben voting, but kthxbye challenged my comment and so I began to think pressee would be interesting.

I placed a single vote down, and the over reaction told it's own tale. And ever since then the reactions have become textbook scummy to me.

[Generic]

Which is to say he uses a level of dismissiveness that is more then not dismissive at all, and less dismissive then completely dismissing.

How much more dismissive can you get than to not address anything about the point I'm actually making and instead refer to my play as retarded?
Beyond an OMGUS on me I can't see what more he could do to be dismissive. And I think he's avoiding an OMGUS as he hasn't actually got an argument for my case.

[Kthxbye]

I want to hear Not Voting's reasons I'm likely scum.

Follow that by Generic's reasons I'm scum.

SG is being SG and I'd be disappointed if she didn't think I was scum due to my last game where I was actually scum. (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=44065)

If you're wondering why I'm concentrated on the 3 players voting me, it's because that's the easiest way to find scum IMO. It's likely 1 scum is voting me right now and the other scum are waiting for more town to jump on before committing.

Now, by wanting to hear the reasons, I'm not talking about blah blah blah, whine whine whine crap about my hurting your sensitive feelings. I'm talking about how my hurting your feelings by telling you how stupid your 'case' (as in the shit poring from your mouth has nothing to do with alignment) is makes me likely scum. It's the correlation of my what you don't like about my posts and how those things make me likely scum I'm after.

For instance, why does my being dismissive about your posts make me more likely scum? Do only scum dismiss moronic thoughts in your experience? Have you ever seen town do the same in any game?

Again, I want to hear

NV's

explanation

first

.

I still think SG's slot is town. I actually think Generic is probs town for the piss poor push of his 'case' that isn't a case. It's NV's jump onto me and then silence that makes him the likely scum...

VOTE: Not Voting

NV: While you figuring out how my 87 is more likely from scum than town and then trying to explain it, why do you have good feelings on Boo, Sal, Red, and HC? Do you still have good feelings on them? What about their posts make them likely town to you?

Also, what are you thoughts on Jake having me at null and then SG replacing and voting me? What would this mean if I flipped scum? What would this mean if I flipped town?

[Kthxbye]

Oh, and Red, did you ever follow up on your p38 question for me and my answer in p87? What did you find?

[Not Voting]

Got prodded, I'm at work right now so can't really do much more than skim and post more tonight after work. I do like what Squirrel is bringin' to the table to eat so far.

@Ktxh - I'll expound tonight when I have the chance. I'll also get to your other questions on my town reads.

[Squirrel Girl]

I do like what Squirrel is bringin' to the table to eat so far.

Pistachios.