A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[SirCakez]

Going to go indepth on Ranger in a bit after I catch up in some other games

[SirCakez]

Doing Ranger thing now

[SirCakez]

This is really frustrating because I think the Ranger wagon is all town except Mirhawk and maybe Seniors, but I'm just legit not seeing the case for Ranger :/

[SirCakez]

Why I think Ranger is town

-First off gut. Obviously can't explain that.

-Meta. This isn't super fresh but Ranger's catchup here very much reminded me of Open 623 where she was town. I brought up Mafiaception earlier as well. That game was very noticeably different from her usual town games. She was much less into the game, made weak pushes, and was basically flopping around all game. I'm not seeing that here.

-Liked the reads progression. Her reads were very very very similar to mine as she was catching up with a few exceptions (TWL and Spiff scum, Beeboy town) (now think Beeboy is town but was scumreading him earlier) and that's a good tell for me because it's mirroring my thoughts which were from a town perspective.

1280 is a fantastic example. Scumreads on Tictac, Mirhawk, Seniors, Ogre, nearly a match of my scumpool earlier. Tammy, Ami, PP, Cerb all up in town pile as well.
This is where the initial "Ranger's reads are fantastic" comment came from.
1316 concludes the reads catchup and it just all feels legit to me.

Mirhawk being a hard Ranger pusher but being so hesitant to join that wagon also gives me pause.

1514 is an example of a post which feels like a genuine thought process. I'm a sucker for walls but things like pointing out more recent scum games for me, explaining the Sakura townread, the defense of the replace out in Open 627 all feel legit.

The dedication to Mirhawk and Seniors feels like my play all game until very recently when I started getting some town vibes from Seniors.

The only thing I'm finding questionable here is the big stance against attempting a tictac wagon which I found odd but that's not enough for a scumread.


So yea there it is.

[SirCakez]

I'm not townreading her for townreading Tammy, I'm townreading her for having very similar reads to mine which is a good thing.

[SirCakez]

Mirhawk being a hard Ranger pusher but being so hesitant to join that wagon also gives me pause.

I'm scum so me not voting for her makes her town? Am I reading this right?

Also didn't you just accuse me of moving my vote around too easily?

No, making a big push but only voting her after other people did. Looks like scum trying to avoid credit for a mislynch.
No...

Axel is a good wagon too also, forgot about him.

[SirCakez]

Wrong Lynch hasn't produced serious content since mid-700s actually which is pretty gross.
P-Edit

-Recent votes have just been following wherever other people go and he's not voting anyone until at least two other people go there first.

Yes...

Following others votes =/= moving your vote too easily

[SirCakez]

Opinion on what?

[SirCakez]

VOTE: Mirhawk
Back to this since tictac wagon was a no-go

[SirCakez]

Tammy ate a prod earlier so figures her vote is defunct.

[SirCakez]

All of these PP posts have been Nacho, correct?

[SirCakez]

I'm furious about this but I'm not going to be able to be here until this afternoon, some irl crap came up, nothing serious. Sorry.

[SirCakez]

I'm going to be here soon, catching up on other stuff first so I can focus here. Will move my vote for deadline.

[SirCakez]

I read this page real quick to see where we're at. I want to open tomorrow with a tictac or Axel wagon pls.

[SirCakez]

Seniors claimed Fruit Vendor? I'm not mislynching another fucking Fruit Vendor.

[SirCakez]

I HAVENT CAUGHT UP YET
If Ranger is the only option then I'll prob vote her just to avoid nolynch. If she flips town though Spiffeh and beeboy should be my voteslaves tomorrow.

[SirCakez]

VOTE: Ranger
I'M PUTTING MY FAITH IN THE CARDS
Spiffeh if this is town will you be my voteslave tomorrow

[SirCakez]

Going to go catch up now.

[SirCakez]

Voteslave = Spiffeh sheeps me all day

[SirCakez]

Idk thought it was worth asking
These people who are still trying to lynch Seniors after their confirmable claim are suspicious as fuck though.
P-Edit: Ya if Ranger is scum I'll sheep Spiffeh

[SirCakez]

Ranger is at like what? L-2? We can get the votes for that.

[SirCakez]

There was an equivalent to a scum fruit vendor in Paint Mafia I believe. Don't think I've ever seen one anywhere else though.

[SirCakez]

There's no way we're getting a wagon somewhere else in like 5 hours lol Cerb.

[SirCakez]

Yeah half of a wagon but most of the game checks in very irregularly soooo it would be iffy

[SirCakez]

Who the hell wants to lynch Spiffeh wtf

[SirCakez]

I'm caught up. Vig should be on Snarky or tictac tonight.

[SirCakez]

Because I feel so iffy about Dram due to that game I linked earlier. He's an OK vig shot but I prefer the other two more.
Tictac has been scummy all game and pretty lurky.

[SirCakez]

Re:tictac - Little scumhunting, few pushes, just generally weak posts.

[SirCakez]

At this point it is basically NL or Ranger

[SirCakez]

Why Tammy Seniors?

[SirCakez]

Can someone actually show where there was a scum Fruit Vendor besides Paint Mafia or no?

[SirCakez]

Cakez do you think someone's lying about it or something?

Davsto was a fruit vendor and he was scum

No I'm saying all these people are like "hurr durr scum would claim Fruit Vendor" and scum wouldn't claim that obviously since it's confirmable unless they actually were one, so I'm asking where anyone has seen a scum FV other then Dav in Paint Mafia.

[SirCakez]

Lynching Ranger will basically explode open this game in terms of reads so even though I have this sick feeling she's going to flip town lynching her is the right play here.
I demand we open with a tictac wagon tomorrow though.

[SirCakez]

If Ranger flips scum we wagon in this pool tomorrow.
{SnarkySnowman, Skybird, tictac, Axelrod, The Pied Piper, pistachi0n, Tammy, True Ogre, Cerberus v666, dramonic}

[SirCakez]

Yeah p much
It's a pretty good pool, my only hard townreads out of all those would be PP, Tammy and Pistach for the miller claim.

[SirCakez]

Shit we have an hour and a half. Yeah someone needs to hammer, don't think we have time to wait for a claim.

[SirCakez]

Rob actually put in the Lovers that I suggested in Theme Test Market wtf

[SirCakez]

VOTE: tictac
Wagon here asap

[SirCakez]

Sorry Ranger my gut was right about you but I couldn't stop the lynch

[SirCakez]

Spiffeh's final non-Ranger pushes were on Tictac, Axel and TWL. Very confident in scum there.
Snarky was obv a vig shot, sucks that he was town but he's gone at least, and he was Hated too.

[SirCakez]

What happened to miller claim

[SirCakez]

Why the hell would Seniors choose Mirhawk, a leading wagon yesterday, to vend to?

[SirCakez]

Cakez, are you positing a seniors/hawk team, or are you just questioning seniors' judgment?

Mostly the second, although first is possible

[SirCakez]

Really don't think Seniors is scum here. This isn't an elaborate game like Tarot, I don't see something like that being put in.
^ post from Tictac was terrible. Literally no commet on anything but Seniors is town from claim (obvious) and going back to an ancient Pist scumread to wagon.

[SirCakez]

I mean in comparison to Tarot this isn't that elaborate. Very standard roles flipped here so far.

[SirCakez]

A lot of those are giving false feedback though for some reason. For example neither Open 630 or Legend of Zelda had a scum fruit vendor.
P-Edit: that's also a good vote

[SirCakez]

OK yea I get the point it's not impossible. I just don't think it's the situation here unless something else comes up to change my mind.

[SirCakez]

Why is everyone so opposed to Tictac all of a sudden?

[SirCakez]

Whaaaaaaaaa
I fell for it too

[SirCakez]

Why is this game dead all of a sudden
Spiffeh y did you have to die with your great activity ugh
For the tictac case - just look at his posts on the last page and tell me that's not scum.

[SirCakez]

Tictac definitely did a lot more in my town game with them before (mini normal 1758) if it helps. I can do a full case later if wanted.

[SirCakez]

I tend to be more active in larges yes. I find it easier to analyze more people for some reason.
The thing that still bugs me about Pist is the miller claim. Otherwise I'd prob be scumreading them.

[SirCakez]

Axel - what's your huge objection to NKA? It definitely has uses.

And to expand on my last Cakez point, I also found this as a reason for disliking the vote switch to be more reasonable than the original waffling charge; it was a quick change, it didn't really seem to have any followable logic behind it; this followup makes me feel like the waffling charge originally seemed weak initially more due to poor wording than weird intent.

The vote switch is the waffling charge, there wasn't a seperation. I think you're misinterpreting that.

[SirCakez]

K time to analyze that crappy Pist wagon.

[SirCakez]

Vote Count #2.3:

pistachi0n:

True Ogre, The Pied Piper, Mirhawk, tictac, Skybird, Sakura Hana, davesaz (7)

Skybird:

pistachi0n, Marquis (2)

tictac:

SirCakez, podoboq (2)

Axelrod:

dramonic (1)

Not Voting:

Friendless Seniors, Axelrod, Cerberus v666, THE WRONG LYNCH, Jim

With 17 players alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

V/LA:

None.

Deadline:

(expired on 2016-04-22 21:00:00)

I think there was another vote but this is the top of the wagon in VCs.
Mirhawk/Tictac/Skybird made up the core of the wagon so three bad votes there already. PP had a case for Pist I think so ok I guess.
Ogre why did you start the wagon?

[SirCakez]

Announcement: pistachi0n is town-aligned.

UNVOTE: pistachion

VOTE: Skybird

[SirCakez]

Because literally the only thing she did was pop in, unvote and leave. No comment at all on Pist being IC or how shifty that wagon was.

[SirCakez]

Like with words! Not just unvoting.

[SirCakez]

I find the situation funny in general. The wagon built fast, and it's going to come apart just as fast.

I'm intensely curious as to how you knew there was more to his role though. I've been thinking about it and I can't think of anything that makes sense.

@Pistachion
Are you actually a miller in addition to an Innocent Child? Or was that a smokescreen?

This > Skybird's contribution
Plus I'm trying to vote someplace I didn't sit on for the majority of the last day

[SirCakez]

To be completely honest, I missed Ogre claiming Investigative on Pistach :/
I didn't realize he claimed Investigative until last night. Prob should have said this then

[SirCakez]

I had a case on Pist on day one. How do ya not know that? Have ya been scumreading me without reading my posts?

I don't have every one of your posts ingrained in my head.
@podo because he's the Micro Listmod now.

[SirCakez]

VOTE: The Wrong Lynch
Do something please

I liked TWL earlier on but now they are doing 0 things to scumhunt which is bad.

[SirCakez]

I did try to do something about it, I made a town case on Ranger <.<
At the end it was Ranger or nolynch and flipping Ranger at least gave us info.

[SirCakez]

I can't push four different lynches at once ffs
I liked their level of engagement and scumhunting early on, though that has obviously dropped off.
If you seriously need a tictac case I'll make one.

[SirCakez]

If there's some question you asked and I missed it quote it please.

[SirCakez]

Why tictac is scum (yeah I went through ISO to back up stuff)

The early note about TWL's "I missed you so much" being forced was bullshit to start.

142 - is a gross early fencesit to start his Seniors read

144 - 175 has a bizarre defense of Seniors that looks like WKing. This was questioned by multiple people.

Then in 483 after an extended absence, Seniors randomly becomes a scumread?

After this he disappears for an extended period of time and then dumps two walls full of things that look like they serve no purpose other then looking like he's doing something 1203 and 1361

Then 1603 is yet another bad wall with a sheeping Seniors vote at the end. Develops a random Ranger scumread here with no explanation.

And then....that's it. He disappeared at deadline, scummy in itself.

His posts today have consisted of a sheep onto now-confirmed Pist and then an also-sheeped Dram vote, then back to Pist, then finally a weak Podo vote in 2578 despite nearly no mention of him in the wall preceding.

Tl;dr

-Sheeps random wagons, very little solo pushes that go anywhere
-Disappeared at deadline
-Develops random scumreads (Ranger, Seniors) to fit where the leading wagons are.

[SirCakez]

I already answered the new ones/TWL one in 2624.

Why did you do so little scumhunting say one.

You gave me an answer before, something about the game being too fluid or stale or something like that, bit I don't believe it really.

You posted a LOT day one. I have trouble believing you were having a hard time finding scumreads.

VOTE: The Wrong Lynch
Do something please

I liked TWL earlier on but now they are doing 0 things to scumhunt which is bad.

What about TWL's early play did you like? I thought it was pretty bad myself.

You being on this makes me feel kind of gross. I like pushing TWL, but I don't like you doing it.

I also asked you about your day one play, I don't really want to hunt down the post with your excuse for poor scumhunting, but I still want a better explanation.

I'm referring to 1660.

I thought I did a fair amount of scumhunting day one. Not as much as some others but I definitely wasn't at the level of "very little scumhunting". 1660 was a response to why I was voteparked, not why I wasn't scumhunting.

[SirCakez]

Yeah, something doesn't add up with Ogre's investigative results on me--at first I thought he might be scum with some investigative role trying to get me quicklynched before I could claim IC, but that doesn't make sense either--maybe he just wanted to draw it out of me?

No way Ogre is bsing a result here, that would be suicide for scum.

[SirCakez]

I missed that bit about TWL, now that I think about it I might have been townreading them early too. I don't think I started souring on them for several posts.

I have the impression that you spent a lot of time talking in day one, scumhunting not so much. I'm comparing you here to day one in the Zelda mafia game. You had a day one scumread and you pushed it. Here you just sat on me without doing anything. You never asked me anything or tried to otherwise engage me, and you didn't try to convince anyone else of what you saw in me either.

Ugh, don't make me read Tictac's posts. They are admittedly terrible, I see a lot of questions that make the person shes commenting to look worse without scumreading them. They do look a lot to me though like posts made by someone who is super behind and is trying to get caught up, which kinda explains the weak opinions and the commentary style of posting (I think). Maybe I'll read some of Tictac's other stuff later to see if she makes commentary style posts like that regularly (or maybe I won't, I'm varying levels of lazy).

I feel like I was pushing here stuff though? Maybe not as much as Zelda but I definitely was pushing you for example, I cased both Seniors and you.

I was town with Tictac in Mini 1758 and he did do longer posts like that a lot, but they were usually more useful and focused then the sprays of questions he's doing here.

[SirCakez]

Snarky is dead itle also, we 99% have a Vig from that *party*

[SirCakez]

I'm on mobile so can't go through that whole wall, but I'm putting the main reasons for my scumreads at the end of those cases I do. The ISO thing is just to back it up.

[SirCakez]

I had stronger reasons to think Seniors was town, I made multiple posts over it. I believed the Fruit Vendor claim and that's confirmable so > Ranger. And I dropped a town case for Ranger but Spiffeh/Beeboy/Seniors gang had their hands over their ears so couldn't do anything about it.

[SirCakez]

I tried to flashwagon Tictac wtf. It fell apart though.
Also Fruit Vendor is a terrible scum claim unless scum is actually Fruit Vendor.

[SirCakez]

We have two days
Someone (Ranger I think?) brought up a tictac wagon earlier. I'd do that.

Actually
VOTE: tictac
Still think Mirhawk is scum but I want to try this. I have been voteparked too long, that part of the case on me is true.

[SirCakez]

I was responding to Pist saying I didn't try to start an alternative to Ranger/Seniors which was bs.

[SirCakez]

The quoted posts were for the flashwagon, not the "strong pushing".
And we have different conceptions of a strong push then. That wagon got like 4 votes before it collapsed.

[SirCakez]

theres a few other posts like that. Trueogre awkwardly trying to step in and be a big part.

He looks like hes trying but is behind, basically.

I'm rereading a bit, and cakez could be scum.

Tictac seems more likely scum than everyone else tbh. I think ranger is still safest today because I think deadline is soon?

We have two days
Someone (Ranger I think?) brought up a tictac wagon earlier. I'd do that.

Actually
VOTE: tictac
Still think Mirhawk is scum but I want to try this. I have been voteparked too long, that part of the case on me is true.

why are you townreading ranger, cakez?

is there enough support for tictac?

fuck it VOTE: tictac

come to ranger w/ me if this dilutes

Mixture of gut + meta + liking the reads progression (it was very very similar to mine) + catchup felt genuine
Stuck on mobile can go more in depth later if wanted

hippy why tictac?

please @ cakez. I want to know your thoughts.

Do you townread tictac, spiffeh? Every time they make a post it gets universally panned and then shoved under the rug. It feels like the classic "your second scumread is scum", tell. Like, I'm pretty sure everyone is at least partially scumreading tictac?

VOTE: tictac

This is definitely starting a flashwagon
Whether its "strong" or not is opinion. My opinion is that it was strong since it picked up more votes.

[SirCakez]

Ok so I'm saying I think it was strong because the wagon picked up steam.

[SirCakez]

Because I feel like I did try? It might be some of my push on tictac from today leaking through but I feel like I had a pretty solid push on tictac, not just the wagon start but stuff earlier too.

[SirCakez]

Why I think Ranger is town

-First off gut. Obviously can't explain that.

-Meta. This isn't super fresh but Ranger's catchup here very much reminded me of Open 623 where she was town. I brought up Mafiaception earlier as well. That game was very noticeably different from her usual town games. She was much less into the game, made weak pushes, and was basically flopping around all game. I'm not seeing that here.

-Liked the reads progression. Her reads were very very very similar to mine as she was catching up with a few exceptions (TWL and Spiff scum, Beeboy town) (now think Beeboy is town but was scumreading him earlier) and that's a good tell for me because it's mirroring my thoughts which were from a town perspective.

1280 is a fantastic example. Scumreads on Tictac, Mirhawk, Seniors, Ogre, nearly a match of my scumpool earlier. Tammy, Ami, PP, Cerb all up in town pile as well.
This is where the initial "Ranger's reads are fantastic" comment came from.
1316 concludes the reads catchup and it just all feels legit to me.

Mirhawk being a hard Ranger pusher but being so hesitant to join that wagon also gives me pause.

1514 is an example of a post which feels like a genuine thought process. I'm a sucker for walls but things like pointing out more recent scum games for me, explaining the Sakura townread, the defense of the replace out in Open 627 all feel legit.

The dedication to Mirhawk and Seniors feels like my play all game until very recently when I started getting some town vibes from Seniors.

The only thing I'm finding questionable here is the big stance against attempting a tictac wagon which I found odd but that's not enough for a scumread.


So yea there it is.

I most definitely tried to stop the Ranger lynch ^ and I offered an alternative in tictac. That's justified.

[SirCakez]

Mirhawk had 3-4 votes on him. Tictac pressure disappeared b/c Spiffeh and Seniors went back to Ranger. Thus Mirhawk had potential but Tictac not anymore.
"It should be noted that at this point that he was still scumreading seniors."

I'll do the Ranger ISO and town case as soon as I get home, sorry for flaking on that.
I'm not as comfortable with a Seniors lynch anymore. I'd really prefer Mirhawk.

[SirCakez]

This is really frustrating because I think the Ranger wagon is all town except Mirhawk and maybe Seniors, but I'm just legit not seeing the case for Ranger :/

Stop misrepping. I made it clear my scumread on you was stronger then the one on Seniors.

[SirCakez]

Why Mirhawk is scum (went through his ISO to back up main points)

-The entire "dave is scum for calling someone out for pulling back on hydra discussion" push stunk. That was not indicative at all, I see town do things akin to that all the time.

-349 - the whole "fencesitting miller" thing. This has been hashed over a ton but yeah looks like scum who knew they were both town.

-852 - Makes a big deal out of "not liking" PP's post then says "not scumreading them for it". Wtf is that, why even bring it up then?

-865, 878 - what the hell are these?

-895 - this accusation sucks. "I find your post kind of weird. Mostly due to the fact that the people you comment on are pretty spread out between the various groups of players."
That's not scummy at all.

-908 - "I DID know Ami was lying."
???
911 doesn't make it any better.

A lot of junk about the fencesitting

-969 - this still isn't a scumtell?

-1002 - Wrong Lynch is in your scum pool? Why haven't you pushed this at all? He hasn't even voted them.

-His Dav push basically completely dissolves because...? No explanation given.

-1335, 1341, 1342 - Initiates a push on Ranger, but no vote to back it up until way later in 1748. Looks like waiting for someone else to start the wagon so he can hop on.

-1612 - suddenly develops a scumread on me, his counterwagon, only after Spiffeh and Tammy start a wagon. In 1585, he says he only wants to vote me a bit? That progression is fake af.
1700 is fake, literally zero mention of ISOing or checking other games until justification requested.

-1748 - right to Ranger as soon as the wagon shifted to her. All his recent voted are just "follow someone else" and he's not actually starting any push without someone else going first.

Tl;dr
-Dave push early on stinks and was dropped randomly.
-Miller fencesit thing still sucks.
-Recent votes have just been following wherever other people go and he's not voting anyone until at least two other people go there first.

I made a fucking case on you. I did try to convince people.

[SirCakez]

Spiffeh was the one who asked for it
Also
Mirhawk be like

[SirCakez]

VOTE: Mirhawk
Back to this since tictac wagon was a no-go

I don't know why you guys are focusing on whether or not Cakez started the flashwagon when the grossest thing he did was this.

He dumped Tictac's wagon in favor of one that wasn't going anywhere. There was never really any reason to get off Tictac in favor of me.

It reads more to me he wanted to get off Tictac's wagon, but didn't want to interact with Ranger's or Seniors.

It should be noted that at this point that he was still scumreading seniors.

In 1827 he says he isn't as comfortable with a seniors lynch anymore.

Then in 1871 he says me and Seniors are the scum on Rangers wagon.

He unvotes Tictac in 1904.

Calls Seniors town in reaction to the fruit vendor in 2144.

I don't think there was ever any real chance of me being lynched.

Nobody was putting any real effort into convincing others that I was scum.

If you were switching back to your stronger scumread why didn't you try and convince people to vote for me.

You made that because I kept giving you flak for not having one. Not because you were trying to push your read.

Who did you try to convince? Name one person you talked with about me.

^^^ these are moving the goalposts
From jumping to the Mirhawk wagon to not joining the wagon on Seniors instead to not trying to convince people Mirhawk was scum to who was I trying to convince Mirhawk was scum. Its all very leading.

[SirCakez]

2/3 of the people voting me are scumreads I've cased and then there's you.
Not really a big consensus.

[SirCakez]

Cerb isn't voting me....

[SirCakez]

Are you kidding me?

Every one of those posts leads from the posts before it. New topics creeping in are a result of YOUR responses to me in the first place.

What am I trying to steer the conversation away from? What to?

To my knowledge the topic is "Cakez was scummy day one, here's why". What do you think the topic is.

It started at " the Tictac jump off was bad" and ended at "who were you talking to about your Tictac case". Like that jumped completely away from the original topic.

[SirCakez]

Nooo it ended with me asking who you talked to about your Mirhawk case.

The flow of conversation was dictated by the responses you made to me.

If anyone's moving goalposts here it's you, the thing you're picking out of all that to argue about has nothing to do with the original topic.

And I said I was talking to Spiffeh about it?

[SirCakez]

Like, am I White-Knighting TicTac right now?

If anything I would have though you would have brought up that in #1203, TicTac seems to be expressing suspicion of you, without actually saying it. He asks TWL why they are Townleaning you (twice, including one "Whyy?"). He asks podo why he is Townreading you. But he never says that he himself is scum-reading you,

That is because I wasn't scumreading Cakez.
I've said it a few times: I find some aspects of Cakez play scummy, but I know he does them as town so I am compensating for that. Doesn't mean I understand strong townreads on him at all.
I am currently trying to figure out if high-volyme + low reading falls into the non-indic category.
The misrep & reaching doesn't but I did get a bit of sync with the Ogre-thing.

Hey pistachi0n, you're better than obvtown. Whose scum and why?

SirCakez is scum VOTE: SirCakez

*Starts the game townreading Ranger

I HAVENT CAUGHT UP YET
If Ranger is the only option then I'll prob vote her just to avoid nolynch. If she flips town though Spiffeh and beeboy should be my voteslaves tomorrow.

Was followed by a Ranger vote. But he said he'd vote Ranger to avoid a no lynch...he didn't have to, he could have voted Seniors if he had a strong conviction that Ranger was town.

Ranger is at like what? L-2? We can get the votes for that.

Is suddenly enthusiastic about voting Ranger once he realizes it can go through.

At this point it is basically NL or Ranger

Again...Seniors???

Sorry Ranger my gut was right about you but I couldn't stop the lynch

You didn't try to stop the lynch!!! You tried to get her lynched! And don't say you were doing it to avoid a No Lynch--I was also trying to avoid a no lynch, and I voted Seniors.

Like, it's not the fact that you voted for someone who flipped town--it's the fact that you voted for her, ignored the counterwagon, and then after the flip did the "sorry, I knew you were town deep down inside, just doing what I have to do" thing.

Tictac why is Post your top lynch still?

Pist*

Yeah.
Either ya didn't care at all about the questions you were asking yesterday or you deliberately misrepped me when ya called my vote on pist 'sheeping'.
VOTE: Cakez

Also this is super sketchy
Has an apparent townread on me then immediately votes me as soon as the IC votes me

[SirCakez]

After reading the conversation between Cakez and Mirhawk, Mirhawk is moving up on my town list. I feel he has made some good points on Cakez.

Dave you think this came from town? Why?

[SirCakez]

oh I thought I did this already
VOTE: Tictac

[SirCakez]

Tictac is a much higher scumread and I was trying to crack info out of Skybird. She's posted some stuff now so back to Tictac.

[SirCakez]

Dram case pls?

Lol good luck with that

[SirCakez]

I'll respond to all that in the morning, that was Nacho I assume though?

[SirCakez]

my response to nacho will be delayed
am pretty busy today
2810 is gross sheeping though

[SirCakez]

I'm on mobile so writing a response more then a few lines has to wait :/

[SirCakez]

Doing your thing now Nacho!
I'll just respond to your last post since you said that's all you wanted a response to.

[SirCakez]

It did read like a slight townread to me, yes. You made comments about stuff people were scumreading me for being not-AI so I assumed that meant you were on the other side of the bridge.
If I did comment on the Pist read earlier then I blanked on it which is a mistake but forgetting things is not indicative of scum. A really notable example of this is Dwlee forgetting about fake-dayvig gambits in Borderlands and getting mislynched for it.

Then 1603 is yet another bad wall with a sheeping Seniors vote at the end. Develops a random Ranger scumread here with no explanation.

That's a post by Spif. What post are you referring to here?

Ya didn't answer, nor did ya comment on the defense very much at all. 2672 is the only thing I can find.
Why are ya focusing on self-defense instead on me?

I have no idea what happened with the 1603. Went and checked and I meant 1646.

Still hammering away at Nacho thing

[SirCakez]

Although you don't really need to respond to all of that, the parts that are particularly important to me involve your opening to the day (what happened to Ranger lynch bringing a bunch of information and why did you follow Spiffeh in the way that you did), what your Skybird vote was about because it sucked, and what your response to the pistachi0n wagon was about. You said you missed the claim investigative result and that's good and well but I don't understand why you didn't say anything about the pistachi0n wagon while it was happening if you thought it was such a piece of shit wagon.

-Ranger info

Spoiler:

Vote Count #1.27 (FINAL):

Ranger:

davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Friendless Seniors:

Skybird, Ranger, tictac, Axelrod, The Pied Piper, pistachi0n (6)

SirCakez:

Tammy, True Ogre (2)

Mirhawk:

Cerberus v666 (1)

Axelrod:

dramonic (1)

Not Voting:

None.

With 21 players alive, it takes 11 to lynch.

V/LA:

None.

Deadline:

(expired on 2016-04-06 21:00:00)

Final Ranger wagon looked like this
Ranger's townflip would obviously mean we need to be searching for scum on the wagon but also who was avoiding joining a wagon at all at deadline.
I actually think Ranger's wagon was very towndriven now that we know Spiffeh was town and Seniors is probably town but there are some shifty votes on here.
-I went over Mirhawk's terrible vote pattern close to deadline in my case on him, that still applies. He was following wagons around constantly. His main justification for Ranger!scum

How much of your scum read(because this is CLEARLY a scum read being expressed) on ranger comes from her scum read on you, and how much from evaluating her play? In short, what part of her play do you find scummy?

I think Ranger is being manipulative to get who she wants lynched. This isn't even my problem with Ranger, as town do this too.

She's slotted every person into what appears to be a fairly solid read with little to no justification for almost any of them.

The only justified reads are (conveniently) the ones that happen to be her highest scumreads once she's caught up, which also (conveniently) happen to be two of the biggest wagons.

The whole thing looks fake to be honest. Kind of like the final reads were decided on before she even started.

is very weak especially now that we know she was town. Reads matching the wagons and not justifying all her reads is a p crappy scumread.

-I also don't like how TWL approached the wagon. Very little attempt to get anything done at deadline and then

Part of me wants to just say fuck it and lynch ranger. Mainly because *nothing bad* will happen either way.

IDK

It's just because I know I'm not going to be around in another 1/2 hr

:\

when they never tried to wagon anywhere else in the first place.

-I've already gone over Tictac disappearing at deadline but that wasn't good either for obvious reasons.

-Finally, Cerb sitting on a never-going-to-happen Mirhawk wagon at deadline feels terrible. Especially now that he's basically done nothing for all of today.

-Spiffeh
I have a pretty high view of Spiffeh's town game and he's been obvtown all this game like he usually is, so I put faith in him and also wanted to avoid a nolynch. Seniors was the alternative and their reachout to me when I cased them + the Fruit Vendor claim felt very town so I didn't want to do that. I tried to get Mirhawk and Tictac going but it didn't go through so I was left with Ranger.

-Skybird

Spoiler:

The cause of that vote was because of the unvote and not commenting on anything else, which I find pretty bad considering an IC just revealed who was the leading wagon which means you should be reanalyzing and Skybird didn't. As well upon review, Skybird didn't even mention the Investigative result when voting Pist, only said

Cakez, why do you think Pist's miller claim is more town based?

I too would like to get this sorted before the game goes much further.
VOTE: Pistachion

"Just sorting someone" is an excellent excuse to join a wagon without seriously committing.
And then

Because literally the only thing she did was pop in, unvote and leave. No comment at all on Pist being IC or how shifty that wagon was.

What's there to comment about? Pist is now confirmed town. I voted her because I have True Ogre as town. It turns out through Mod communication that Pist is town. I unvoted. Then RL intervened and I had to go do other stuff.

That's straight up backtracking.

-Pist wagon
I'm gonna be completely honest here and admit I wasn't paying attention to the game at all that day. That's why I missed Ogre claiming an Investigative result and why I immediately assumed it was a random scum-driven wagon the next morning.

[SirCakez]

Dramonic is a bad lynch in general because we get very very little info from his flip and he's a ridiculously easy mislynch if he's town and easy bus if he's scum. A Vig there is probably the best way to deal with him. I still think he's town here but I'm struggling to convince everyone else and something needs to be done about him.

[SirCakez]

Tictac has not significantly contributed to discussion or shaping reads. That's an odd assertion to make.
Axel has some what but I have different problems with him.

[SirCakez]

Most of his content today feels like refuting my push on him and not scumhunting. Defense is fine but he's not doing much else.

[SirCakez]

You shoot people who are impossible to sort and could fuck over town later on. Snarky is a prime example of this.

[SirCakez]

-Ranger info

Lynching Ranger will basically explode open this game in terms of reads so even though I have this sick feeling she's going to flip town lynching her is the right play here.

What I was looking for here was for you to explain this quote, not so much look at Ranger's wagon and analyze it. I'd expect that if you were as town you'd have a specific idea wrt her wagon in mind (the only way she could get lynched as town is if there was a bunch of scum on her wagon) that would explain why you'd have a bunch of reads as a result of a Ranger lynch, but, if scum, I'd expect you felt a little bit awkward about joining the wagon of someone who you town read and so you posted this to justify jumping on it. Was what you meant by that quote simply that you thought Ranger's wagon would be very analyzable? Why?

-Spiffeh

At the beginning of the day today, you said that you were going to sheep Spiffeh's reads. The reason why that felt weird to me is because you said that if Ranger was town, you wanted Spiffeh to be your voteslave (suggesting that you thought your reads were better than Spiffeh's if Ranger was town). Could you talk about that?

The cause of that vote was because of the unvote and not commenting on anything else, which I find pretty bad considering an IC just revealed who was the leading wagon which means you should be reanalyzing and Skybird didn't.

Just because a player isn't reanalyzing in the same post that they unvoted doesn't mean that they aren't going to do any reanalyzing at all.

"Just sorting someone" is an excellent excuse to join a wagon without seriously committing.

"Getting this sorted" was a reference to the Ogre-Pistach interaction which did indeed need to be sorted.

That's straight up backtracking.

Well, yeah, but I'd find it weirder if Skybird didn't backtrack on her vote after Pistach revealed to be an IC... Wouldn't you?

-Yes I did, because it was an easy wagon especially towards the end so I wanted to look into the people who had been pushing it for a while off of weak reasoning, for example Mirhawk.
-That was mostly a joke since I was getting frustrated with Spiffeh for still pushing that wagon despite my strong town read on Ranger.
-True, but she just popped in and out which is what I didn't like. 0 other comments.
-If it was I missed that. I thought she meant she wanted to sort Pist.
-It's not backtracking then if she was trying to sort Ogre v Pist, I messed that up if so.

[SirCakez]

After reading the conversation between Cakez and Mirhawk, Mirhawk is moving up on my town list. I feel he has made some good points on Cakez.

-snip-

I still kind of think Seniors is town.

You're probably right. I don't think your wagon analysis piece was going to result in anything productive;

two town counter wagons doesn't really mean much with how the scum team was behaving.

-snip-

Why is this game dead all of a sudden
Spiffeh y did you have to die with your great activity ugh
For the tictac case - just look at his posts on the last page and tell me that's not scum.

While I'll commend Cakez if he's scum here because this post is pretty decently ballsy, this post also feels pretty incredibly fake. As I've said before, I don't mind when people read into dead town's reads and all that good stuff but following them blindly when you didn't really follow the player that closely the day before is pretty fucking iffy, and these sorts of "I'll miss you Spiffeh!" posts never really ring true to me.

What do you mean by the bolded PP? How do you know how the scum team was behaving?

In the second part of the quote, I agree with the "I'll miss you Spiffeh" sentiment ringing false. Put this quote along with the "I tried to save you Ranger" quote from Cakez and he just feels incredibly scummy today.

I'm caught back up now and I think it's time to vote.

VOTE: Sir Cakez

Criminy, I spend an afternoon outside because it finally made it over 65 degrees around here for the first time this spring and you all choose now to start voting me.

I'm having a hard time finding scum this game. I've been looking at things and re-reading but I'm just not picking up on anything. I'm not sure what I need to do to find scum right now.

These are all really scummy. Especially after reviewing her ISO earlier when doing the wall for Nacho I agree this is the right vote.
VOTE: Skybird

[SirCakez]

I still think itle slot is town. His push on Podo for the Dram push is overblown though.

[SirCakez]

So this entire push on Podo is just sorting him? Or is this a tunnel?

[SirCakez]

Might have been Basic uPick
He didn't actually get mislynched though but he got close to it

[SirCakez]

Vote Count #2.10:

SirCakez:

Mirhawk, pistachi0n, tictac, Skybird, SirCakez (5)

Skybird:

Marquis, podoboq, The Pied Piper, itlepip (4)

Axelrod:

dramonic, Sakura Hana (2)

The Pied Piper:

Friendless Seniors, True Ogre (2)

dramonic:

davesaz (1)

Not Voting:

Axelrod, Cerberus v666, THE WRONG LYNCH

With 17 players alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

V/LA:

Marquis until 4/17.

Deadline:

(expired on 2016-04-22 21:00:00)

@Rob is this VC correct? I never self voted.

[SirCakez]

Yes, I was trying to sort Pist-True Ogre, not just Pist.

I think you are confbiasing on me. It seems that everything I post lately you are calling scummy.

The sorting thing was my mistake, but I'm definitely not conf biasing or "calling everything you post scummy".

[SirCakez]

It seems that everything I post lately

you are calling scummy.

What?

[SirCakez]

I didn't say you were calling everything I posted scummy. I said it

seems

that everything I post

lately

you are finding scummy.

After reading the conversation between Cakez and Mirhawk, Mirhawk is moving up on my town list. I feel he has made some good points on Cakez.

-snip-

I still kind of think Seniors is town.

You're probably right. I don't think your wagon analysis piece was going to result in anything productive;

two town counter wagons doesn't really mean much with how the scum team was behaving.

-snip-

Why is this game dead all of a sudden
Spiffeh y did you have to die with your great activity ugh
For the tictac case - just look at his posts on the last page and tell me that's not scum.

While I'll commend Cakez if he's scum here because this post is pretty decently ballsy, this post also feels pretty incredibly fake. As I've said before, I don't mind when people read into dead town's reads and all that good stuff but following them blindly when you didn't really follow the player that closely the day before is pretty fucking iffy, and these sorts of "I'll miss you Spiffeh!" posts never really ring true to me.

What do you mean by the bolded PP? How do you know how the scum team was behaving?

In the second part of the quote, I agree with the "I'll miss you Spiffeh" sentiment ringing false. Put this quote along with the "I tried to save you Ranger" quote from Cakez and he just feels incredibly scummy today.

I'm caught back up now and I think it's time to vote.

VOTE: Sir Cakez

Criminy, I spend an afternoon outside because it finally made it over 65 degrees around here for the first time this spring and you all choose now to start voting me.

I'm having a hard time finding scum this game. I've been looking at things and re-reading but I'm just not picking up on anything. I'm not sure what I need to do to find scum right now.

These are all really scummy. Especially after reviewing her ISO earlier when doing the wall for Nacho I agree this is the right vote.
VOTE: Skybird

This is what I am talking about Cakez. You took 4 of my posts in a row and called them all scummy. That's why I said it seems like you are calling everything I post lately scummy.

First there's more backtracking here since you said I wasn't calling everything scummy in the first quote then in the second you said I did.
And how do 4 quotes = everything you posts? That's overblown.

[SirCakez]

I mean in comparison to Tarot this isn't that elaborate. Very standard roles flipped here so far.

Still think this after True Ogre v. Pistachi0n?

So far, yes, at least compared to Tarot which was the topic there.

[SirCakez]

Tictac is a much higher scumread and I was trying to crack info out of Skybird. She's posted some stuff now so back to Tictac.

Shouldn't you be switching to me if that your voting criteria? What information were you hoping to get out of Skybird, did you get what you were looking for? You must have been satisfied by her response to change your vote, why were you satisfied?

I have more then one high scumread.
Some content and scumhunting, which she did kind of, but now her posts are getting bad again.

[SirCakez]

Seriously dude, do you not understand the word "lately"?

I did not say you were calling everything scummy in the first place. I said it SEEMED like you were. I am showing that you took 4 of my most recent posts and called them scummy. See the bolded large statement from you above? See the word bolded in my response?

This is just a semantics argument now, you know what I mean.

[SirCakez]

Yes I did, because it was an easy wagon especially towards the end so I wanted to look into the people who had been pushing it for a while off of weak reasoning, for example Mirhawk.

And did you do this? What was so weak about my case on Ranger anyways?

I listed it off in the wall I made for Nacho.

[SirCakez]

Skybird is arguing semantics when its obvious I mean she's overblowing the post I made calling 4 of her posts scummy into "calling everything I post lately scummy".

[SirCakez]

How does last 4 posts = everything I post lately?

[SirCakez]

Everything I post lately would be calling a consistent stream of posts for at least a day scummy.

[SirCakez]

Yes I did, because it was an easy wagon especially towards the end so I wanted to look into the people who had been pushing it for a while off of weak reasoning, for example Mirhawk.

And did you do this? What was so weak about my case on Ranger anyways?

I listed it off in the wall I made for Nacho.

Not really. My points were that Rangers final readslist sounded like it had been decided on beforehand, she was trying to manipulate the wagons to disclude Skybird from contention, and that her reads were poorly justified.

I had more reasons for voting Ranger then most of the people on her wagon, and of the people who had actually justified their votes for her many of them were using points I initially brought up.

The first makes no sense unless you assume she read the game before replacing in(?) and the third is standard for Ranger.
Where did she manipulate wagons?

[SirCakez]

It's not really. It was part of the info I collected from the Ranger wagon that Nacho asked about.

[SirCakez]

Everything I post lately would be calling a consistent stream of posts for at least a day scummy.

I don't think that Skybird has an obligation to live up to your definition of "everything lately".
When she posted that quote of yours I immediately understood and agreed with her definition.

I'm really not sure why it's important that you try to assert that you're in the right here.

We have different definitions of this. I'll drop it for now.

[SirCakez]

All this stuff got discussed plenty yesterday, and a great deal of it was done by me. If you want to know that badly you can go back and look.

My point is that you said you were going to look into the people who had weak reasoning for voting her and cited me as an example. There were ten other people on the wagon at the end of the day, how was I one of the poorly justified ones.

Also, if Rangers flip was going to do so much to sort the people on the wagon (including me) when precisely did that happen? Your reads never changed at all.

It didn't affect my reads as much as I thought, yes. Snarky got vigged presumably, you're still a scumread, Spiffeh died, I believe Seniors is town, etc.
TWL is one vote I didn't like on the wagon and noted so it wasn't useless.

[SirCakez]

He was lurking for a lot of day one and what he did post was pretty scummy. It's listed in the case I made on him.

[SirCakez]

You seemed really sure of yourself at the time. I'll go back and re-read what you posted in the case, from memory it was peppered with links so I would have just read it and not clicked.

Top 3 people you want to lynch today?

Tictac, Mirhawk and Wrong Lynch/Mala

[SirCakez]

town: Mirhawk, ogre, cakez, pogo, pistachion, itlepip, Friendless Seniors, Beeboy
{Skybird, cakez, dramonic}
Null: Sakura, axel, cakez
{marquis, Davesaz, cerb}
scum: pied piper, tictac, The wrong lynch

Why am I in three places?

[SirCakez]

What super good pushes?

[SirCakez]

Then just call it gut?

[SirCakez]

Hi Dwlee!
You have 121 pages of reading due by tomorrow afternoon, get cracking.

[SirCakez]

Try some reading strategies!

-Leave your phone at the charger.
-Bring a glass of water with you.
-Play calming music.
-Avoid distractions like TV.
-Stay focused on the work.

[SirCakez]

Well that's even more homework! You better get to work!

[SirCakez]

1/4 of a word? Wtf
Romeo and Juliet was my nemesis last year actually. Just do it all in one sitting. You can summarize most of it as "they loved each other very much but their parents were terrible and wanted to kill each other".
lol

[SirCakez]

Have fun!
Town obviously
Go read the game and discover this yourself.

[SirCakez]

That game still makes me angry
I'll do a tl;dr in a bit, but I'm on mobile so won't be super good

[SirCakez]

Ok I'm just going to do the tl;dr on a computer because this is too long to type out on mobile.

[SirCakez]

Ok so shortish version

day one

-Seniors is the first major wagon and the wagon on them pretty much never goes away throughout day 1. Initially it started from them making a serious vote on Snarky, lynchbait, for making a naked vote on them and then it ballooned from there. Beeboy was deathtunneling them for must of the day.

-Swordsworth (predecessor to Ranger) makes a couple really terrible posts then replaces out, this becomes relevant later.

-Pist comes in and claims Miller, Amihan aka Marquis comes in and CCs, everyone is like "lol failed fakeclaim" and wagon Pist but then Marquis reveals he was just reaction testing and then the wagon dissipates. Both get a lot of townreads from this.

-A wagon comes together on Mirhawk for terrible fencesitting during the CCs, this is another sticky wagon that doesn't go away until the end of the day.

-Ranger replaces Swordsworth(!).

-The game state gets stagnant for a bit, a Skybird wagon comes together but never becomes the leading wagon. Ranger starts to make her catchup around here and this is where scumreads on her start flying for her reads looking like they were predecided and apparent wagon manipulation. See VC 1.17.

-The Seniors wagon makes a resurgence due to votes from Ranger and Sakura and I become a leading wagon for a bit due to me not justifying reads on Mirhawk and Seniors and apparently coasting so I post my cases on all of those players and the votes move to Ranger here. Spiffeh, Seniors and beeboy were the main pushers on Ranger. Ranger wagon grows pretty rapidly.

-Mirhawk wagon dies off around here, and at the end it basically becomes either a Seniors lynch or Ranger lynch. Seniors claims Fruit Vendor which is confirmable so it's basically agreed upon here Ranger will be the lynch due to deadline. Day ends with Ranger flipping VT.

day two

-Spiffeh was killed by scum team presumably while it's generally agreed Snarky was a vig shot for doing nothing all day.

-Votes flop around for a bit, nothing really sticks until Ogre claims investigative results incriminating Pistach, there's a big flash wagon here and then Pist reveals as IC.

-There's more flopping around, no big wagons until I become the leading wagon for my stances on Ranger, Tictac and Skybird not being thorough enough, I went over all of these in a wall recently.

-Skybird is the alternative wagon for general scumminess and opportunism currently.


I probably missed some things, I was going from the VCs to get down the most major wagons. Good ISOs to read include Mirhawk, Skybird, Seniors, tictac and myself.

[SirCakez]

I was trying to talk about the main big wagons from VCs, forgot about the Tictac flash wagon since it dissipated quickly.
And yeah it's obviously biased because its from my POV, you can add whatever.
Dwlee's neutral role was obviously a reference to Rome and Juliet :p

[SirCakez]

(snip) Unspoilering for readibility.

-Skybird

The cause of that vote was because of the unvote and not commenting on anything else, which I find pretty bad considering an IC just revealed who was the leading wagon which means you should be reanalyzing and Skybird didn't.

So Skybird should immediately have new reads or avoid unvoting a

conftown

if she's town. That is backwards. Re-thinking things takes more time than making things up.

As well upon review, Skybird didn't even mention the Investigative result when voting Pist,

And why should she? It's not like Ogres result on pist was easy to miss. Do you think Sky was unaware of Ogres post?

only said

Cakez, why do you think Pist's miller claim is more town based?

I too would like to get this sorted before the game goes much further.
VOTE: Pistachion

"Just sorting someone" is an excellent excuse to join a wagon without seriously committing.

True, yet I see townies doing this all the time. I seem to remember you doing it in the Mini even.

And then

Because literally the only thing she did was pop in, unvote and leave. No comment at all on Pist being IC or how shifty that wagon was.

What's there to comment about? Pist is now confirmed town. I voted her because I have True Ogre as town. It turns out through Mod communication that Pist is town. I unvoted. Then RL intervened and I had to go do other stuff.

That's straight up backtracking.

How is that backtracking?
While it's possible that you didn't see Ogres claim the first time around,I don't believe that you didn't see the mod-announce.
Sky wanted to sort pist, pist was sorted and Sky unvoted. Where is the backtracking?

I'll add that not seeing Ogres post would be scummy in itself, cause it means you didn't pay attention to context. To me that speaks of pattern-matchy mindset of someone who is looking for things to push instead of looking for scum.

-The unvote is fine, I didn't like how she didn't say anything else. I wasn't the only one with a problem with this.
-The rest of this (backtracking stuff) was because of a misinterpretation on my part. I thought Skybird said she was trying to sort Pist then changed her reason to following Ogre's result, but I got mixed up.

[SirCakez]

Most of his content today feels like refuting my push on him and not scumhunting. Defense is fine but he's not doing much else.

Wtf? Did ya miss that I'm pushing you?
Also, have too been scumhunting.

Your "push" on me is all shooting down my points on you.
Where have you been scumhunting elsewhere?

[SirCakez]

Apparently instead of my solid case on him voteparking and not scumhunting day one

This is crap and you know it is.
Voteparking isn't a scum tell.
I 100% scumhunted day 1, your "he didn't scumhunt" accusation is balls.

Like how both people attacking me now are people I've pushed wagons on earlier/currently.

[SirCakez]

Apparently instead of my solid case on him voteparking and not scumhunting day one

This is crap and you know it is.
Voteparking isn't a scum tell.
I 100% scumhunted day 1, your "he didn't scumhunt" accusation is balls.

You made 115 posts before you even tried to justify you vote on me as anything more than "Mirhawk's reaction is bad".

I was your top scumread that entire time and you did NOTHING to anyalyze my posts, convince others I was scum, or further your wagon in any way.

What scumread were you furthering during that time?

Like how both people attacking me now are people I've pushed wagons on earlier/currently.

I let you get away with saying this the first time but this is bullshit, and it's not true. This only applies to me and Tictac, you aren't counting Skybird, or Pistachion, or Piper.

So you're saying
Every single person who has a high scumread on someone needs to go indepth on their scumread on them, keep pushing the wagon forward and continuously analyze your posts? That's terrible, not every read is going to get a ton of justification.
I've never pushed wagons on Pist (except for the Miller CC, but that wasn't a scumread for anything else) or Piper, and Skybird isn't attacking me right now.

[SirCakez]

Tictac I'll get to your defense in a bit, I forgot about it.

[SirCakez]

So you're saying
Every single person who has a high scumread on someone needs to go indepth on their scumread on them, keep pushing the wagon forward and continuously analyze your posts? That's terrible, not every read is going to get a ton of justification.
I've never pushed wagons on Pist (except for the Miller CC, but that wasn't a scumread for anything else) or Piper, and Skybird isn't attacking me right now.

You made a hundred and fifteen posts before you got around to your justification. That's not failing to go in depth, that's failing to do anything.

What serious scumhunting did you do during that time frame that required you to not push your top read? There was none, you just kept a running commentary on the game.

The fact that skybird any pistachio aren't your scumreads is my point. You keep trying to paint this situation as you being exclusively attacked by your scumreads, and that isn't true.

You just said earlier I did make justification though. Not as indepth as the case but there was reasoning.

I can go dig up quotes if you seriously need them.

And I said the main two people attacking me currently were two people I tried to wagon. I'm not saying the only people attacking are scumreads.

[SirCakez]

I don't have every one of your posts ingrained in my head.

Pist was in my scumreads for quite a while.

Might have been your inactivity then because I have 0 recollection of you pushing pist

(yeah I went through ISO to back up stuff)

At least you are giving reasons. The scumread-first-then-ISO-cases are null for you, but it does make you really opaque as to your actual reasons. Makes the cases hard to take seriously.

The early note about TWL's "I missed you so much" being forced was bullshit to start.

No it wasn't.

Yeah it was, that could easily be genuine from either alignment, scum has no reason to fake that.

142 - is a gross early fencesit to start his Seniors read

Null is null.

144 - 175 has a bizarre defense of Seniors that looks like WKing. This was questioned by multiple people.

It was. I still don't get why.

Then in 483 after an extended absence, Seniors randomly becomes a scumread?

Cause he actually had content at that point and it was scummy.

Seniors 100% had content before your scumread developed, that's bull.

After this he disappears for an extended period of time and then dumps two walls full of things that look like they serve no purpose other then looking like he's doing something 1203 and 1361

Catching up.

Catch up is fine but those walls are loaded with questions that you never followed up on or actually looked like they were meant to help your reads.

Then 1603 is yet another bad wall with a sheeping Seniors vote at the end. Develops a random Ranger scumread here with no explanation.

That's a post by Spif. What post are you referring to here?

This was a typo on my fault, I fixed this earlier.

And then....that's it. He disappeared at deadline, scummy in itself.

I got other stuff to do.

10/10

His posts today have consisted of a sheep onto now-confirmed Pist

Still don't get how you'd miss my scumread on pist yesterday. Specially with you doing an ISO on me.

See above

and then an also-sheeped Dram vote

Dram-should-speak-more vote. Also wanted to see if he'd increase activity like last time he was wagoned, but the pist thing intervened and there was no real wagon.

Why haven't you been pushing Dram more then?

then back to Pist,

Again: pist was a scumread for a good while.

see above

then finally a weak Podo vote in 2578 despite nearly no mention of him in the wall preceding.

The preceding 'wall': 2487
'nearly no mention' is a huge misrep.

Preceding wall was the same post you made the vote in?

Green responses, snipped out irrelevant stuff

[SirCakez]

First off, 18 posts analyzing/questioning/pushing you isn't even close to the "no justification AT ALL until case" stuff you were pushing earlier.

914 isn't an abrupt end, look at 918, Cerb explained it better and then you took the discussion to him.
1194 (response to 1177) was missed looks like but I most definitely did not "duck out" there, I continued to engage you on the next page.

[SirCakez]

Ranger is a wallposter though and she got lynched easily

[SirCakez]

"easily"

and ranger barely made any posts fwiw. Deadline scramble is nothing

cakez, whats the best thing you've seen in a piper post?

Probably the reasoned out case on me actually. That didn't look like a scum viewpoint at all.

[SirCakez]

Dwlee is so easy to read which is the great thing about him. Like I even called him flipping town in the Borderlands Scum Chat.

[SirCakez]

First off, 18 posts analyzing/questioning/pushing you isn't even close to the "no justification AT ALL until case" stuff you were pushing earlier.

914 isn't an abrupt end, look at 918, Cerb explained it better and then you took the discussion to him.
1194 (response to 1177) was missed looks like but I most definitely did not "duck out" there, I continued to engage you on the next page.

18 of 115 is about fifteen percent, that's a pretty low number if you ask me.

And calling all of those as relevant is probably a stretch as well. The most relevant thing in there is probably your question about my stance on TWL, but you dropped that. Also the thing you engaged me about on the next page was pretty pointless.

I feel like I shot pretty big holes in cerb's reasoning as well, but you never came back to help him justify his point despite saying you agreed completely with it. You seemed all too happy to let him argue it instead of you.

15% is pretty good if you aren't deathtunneling.

It was analysis/engagement/whatever, it =/= "no analyzing or pushing".

Yeah I didn't go back to keep arguing with you when Cerb was explaining it well, I had already said what I meant.

[SirCakez]

18 of 115 is about fifteen percent, that's a pretty low number if you ask me.

And calling all of those as relevant is probably a stretch as well. The most relevant thing in there is probably your question about my stance on TWL, but you dropped that. Also the thing you engaged me about on the next page was pretty pointless.

I feel like I shot pretty big holes in cerb's reasoning as well, but you never came back to help him justify his point despite saying you agreed completely with it. You seemed all too happy to let him argue it instead of you.

15% is pretty good if you aren't deathtunneling.

It was analysis/engagement/whatever, it =/= "no analyzing or pushing".

Yeah I didn't go back to keep arguing with you when Cerb was explaining it well, I had already said what I meant.

ooooooohhhh fanccyyyyy

wtf happened here

[SirCakez]

I find 15% to be pretty low, deathtunneling or not. And as I said, a lot of those posts are just along the lines of "mirhawk is scum", which I don't really think is useful for anything aside from reminding people of your opinion.

The "no analyzing/pushing" thing was pretty obviously a gross exaggeration, I mean I retracted that comment almost immediately after I said it. It was just too much of an exaggeration for me to stand by it. You keep bringing it up, but it's pretty obvious that's not my actual opinion. My point is (and has been this whole time) that you did very little analyzing or pushing, and I don't think I'm off base in saying that.

The only person who had a case on me based on that whole scenario that made any sense was Podo. Cerbs case didn't make any sense as it assumed that I had information that there was no way I could have. I pointed this out at the time so I'm not sure how Cerb was explaining it well.

It's pushing at the least.

It wasn't "very little" yeah I probably could have done more at the time but I think you're exaggerating this.

From what I remember Cerb had pointed out basically everything I was thinking only more succinctly regarding that scenario, I'd have to go review it but it made sense to me.

[SirCakez]

I could go into the ISO of basically anyone on any wagon and not a ton of their posts will be focused on the person they are voting. You're pushing this thing where "he should be focused on me and nailing me to the wall constantly!" which isn't true or the best play. I hate tunneling especially.

[SirCakez]

I'm not saying tunneling is a good thing, I'm saying that your involvement with your top scumread is ridiculously low.

No matter how many ways you look at it it still ends up looking like you were only there because it was easy. Which looks particularly bad on a player who is supposed to be actually looking for scum ie: the town.

I know you are capable of scumhunting, and you're capable of pushing your reads, but yet you still managed to spend almost the entire day not doing so.

I'm out.

We're going in circles on this, I don't think my involvement was ridiculously low nor was I there because it was easy.

[SirCakez]

I listed some of that stuff (dave case being bad, jumping wagons on whatever's popular) in my case on him but it got ignored/called misrep q.q

[SirCakez]

It's still the same points though

[SirCakez]

Dwlee is 100% right. People forget scumreada all the time. Shit happens. Cerb knows that, and him pushing this angle is ridiculous. Same with Nacho (IMO top 10 scumhujters on site), Plotinus (spectacular)

These people pushing a case this bad is just plain scummy.

>Borderlands Mafia is a great example of town forgetting things and getting mislynched for it.

Although Dwlee I would like to hear who your scumreads are.

[SirCakez]

I could do an Axel wagon also. I can pull together some points when I get home on him.

[SirCakez]

No longer confident in Skybird vote also
VOTE: Mirhawk
This is better

[SirCakez]

I'm fine with Cakez, Skybird, and Mirhawk--not Mala or anybody else.

All of us are scumreading each other, how are these your scumreads together? Do you think it's some elaborate 3-way bus or something?

you not signing your posts is scummy asd fuck. Almost likr you are trying to avoid meta tells.

Dwlee this is really bad.

Pied Piper feels like Ranger 2.0 again. I'm getting the same gut town feelings, the same feeling of scum piling on for weak reasons, the same counterwagon to Mirhawk. I can also towncase them like Ranger but it's more gut then Ranger was due to the large amount of just words in their posts. I'd really rather not lynch PP today.

[SirCakez]

Can you talk to me about what bothers you so much about them?

[SirCakez]

Holy shit. That makes perfect sense. Are you voting him yet? Cause I am now.

VOTE: Mirhawk

Cerberus, I'm not really scumreading you. But this couldn't sound more fake if you tried.

fyi

And pushing, in turn, seemingly indiscriminately, every single person who looked even slightly viable as a lynch.

And pushing in turn actual scumreads.

You and pip are pretending I jumped suddenly on skybird right before the deadline, when I actually changed to her a week beforehand. I had expressed concern over her behavior several times before that as well. It's also not like i wasn't involved on the wagon that built on Ranger. Most of the original case on her was brought up by me.

The only vote that wasn't Telegraphed ahead of time was Cakez, and that one was in response to Spiffah asking me about him.

Also given that Mirhawk pulled the BS fruitvendors mean that FS is confirmed BS and FS is pulling this BS with Mir right now if nothing else make sure one of them flips soon this game cause that could just solve the game.

Do you HAVE to misrepresent every single thing in your case or something?

I've explicitly stated multiple times that I was townreading seniors well in advance of his claim.

Beeboy actually had a lot of town capital accumulated with me. It's like you're on some kind of mission to burn it up as fast as possible.

Mirhawk keeps developing scumreads on whoever pushes on him which is pretty ridiculous. All of the scum wouldn't just gang up on you and start attacking you, so this is pretty bad.

[SirCakez]

Who are "people"?

[SirCakez]

Axel what do you think about Mirhawk? The only thing in your ISO I can find about him is you addressing the case I made on him.

[SirCakez]

@Cakez
I'm not scumreading either of them at the moment. It's just that their case is really terribly made.

I think Cerberus is town and I heavily townread beeboy.

All of the accusations of misrep and burning all your towncred and etc didn't sound like townreads though.

[SirCakez]

I can move back to Skybird if Mirhawk doesn't get off the ground....again.

[SirCakez]

Mirhawk is commonly mislynched?

[SirCakez]

I am, yeah. I've been mislynched around 8 or so times onsite iirc but only twice as scum
;-;

[SirCakez]

I don't get lynched in ALL games pls.

[SirCakez]

The Lovers "crumbing" has little relevance to the overall case for Skybird!scum Ogre, like PP said. It's not even part of my scumread on her.
Itle wtf are those colors supposed to mean?
Will give intent in a bit if no one else shows up.

[SirCakez]

Coasting, opportunism, lack of scumhunting throughout both days.
Dwlee

[SirCakez]

What the hell is a kingmaker?

[SirCakez]

Catching up. Might be kind of spammy for a bit.

[SirCakez]

Yeah, I think the king gets the final say in any lynch or something like that. The wiki page is kinda unhelpful for this one. Not sure if Skybird's claim is too convenient or not. It would have been super conformable if it had targeted anyone other then Tammy, but its' still possible.

I've never actually seen a kingmaker role, but I can't think of any reason for there to not be one either.

I want Cakez,

but am willing to settle for Skybird.

Who are your ancillary scumreads?

This progression is gross. From fencesitting on the claim to willing to lynch in 4 posts.

[SirCakez]

@Rob, can you confirm that I am a 1-shot kingmaker and that I targeted Tammy last night?

I'm not sure if he can, but it's worth a try.

[SirCakez]

I was trying to lay low on D1 because of my role. I wanted to make sure I got a chance to use it. I was town-hunting looking to make sure I targeted town with my king-maker shot. So Mirhawk you are correct that I really didn't have any scum reads D1. I really wasn't looking for them. But I couldn't say that because you guys would have flash-lynched me. I also didn't want to say anything that would make scum think I had a super PR and was worth a NK.

This is also bad. Kingmaker isn't an especially useful role, why would you want to make sure you were able to use it?

[SirCakez]

Posting from phone. Travelling.
He actually seem to care aboit getting me or mir lynched at all and jumps targets to whomever looks pushable at the moment, when it looks lile he isn't getting traction on his current push.

This misrep is awful.

[SirCakez]

Ok caught up.
Skybird can die today unless I see something really convincing before deadline.

[SirCakez]

@Rob, can you confirm that I am a 1-shot kingmaker and that I targeted Tammy last night?

I'm not sure if he can, but it's worth a try.

Why did you dislike this post?

Because it's really really really really obvious that Rob can't confirm that.

[SirCakez]

Piper obviously she can't say she has a shot left, then it could be confirmed.

[SirCakez]

You said you were considering it yeah, but you went to willing to lynch four posts later. That's not very good consideration.

[SirCakez]

Why do you like Mirhawk a lot better?

[SirCakez]

^ wtf

[SirCakez]

So you're saying Dwlee should have just lolhammered right there?

[SirCakez]

Because I think people should get in their last thoughts and reads before night after intent is given PP.

[SirCakez]

Because I think people should get in their last thoughts and reads before night after intent is given PP.

I was referring more to the fact of not general theory play but what makes the most sense from Dwlee

Why does it make sense for Dwlee to lolhammer there though O.o

[SirCakez]

FS is a crap vig target
Vig should be on tictac/mirhawk/mala

[SirCakez]

VOTE: tictac
HOW DO YOU STILL WANT TO KEEP THIS ALIVE

[SirCakez]

He avoided voting Skybird the entire day. His only votes were Pistach and me which is terrible.
P-edit: we lynched mafia why are you salty bro

[SirCakez]

Yeah I won't you're right
After that flip they are even more obvtown

[SirCakez]

Dwlee what do you think of Tictac?

[SirCakez]

I could also vote Axel, good mention.

[SirCakez]

Cakez, I have a pretty good idea where your tictac scumread is coming from, but they aren't scum. Axel would be a better vote.

How is tictac not scum?

[SirCakez]

Ooook?
VOTE: Axelrod
Could also vote Mirhawk btw, before he says I'm not pushing him enough

[SirCakez]

Seniors who did you give a wig too, stop dodging the question

[SirCakez]

Seniors who did you give a wig too, stop dodging the question

Also those were good checks from Marquis imo

[SirCakez]

What's also concerning from Seniors is how they dodged the wig question for several pages despite being questioned. Like if I was town and fucked up and knew suspicion was on me I'd want to get that out there immediately but they had to be asked repeatedly about where the wig went.

[SirCakez]

I don't like this Seniors wagon. Tictac's jump on especially feels opportunistic.

Would much prefer Axel, Mir, or tictac wagon.

[SirCakez]

I believe that claim
Double no results is bizarre though
Makes sense night two given you claimed Investigative but I don't see why scum or town would choose to rb you night 1

[SirCakez]

I don't think Dwlee is scum here Plot (?). He's usually super easy to read for me and I definitely think he's town here.
Cerb is iffy for me though. He's not giving me the same "obvtown" vibe I've gotten from him as town before which is concerning.