A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[podoboq]

erhm, my stance is pre clear.

I will vote tpp or tictac, whichever has more traction

you voting tpp = my vote goes to tpp

Figured it out. I misread the sentence. either/or*

[podoboq]

what i'm trying to say is that i am hesitant to clear marquis.
-EP

On reflection, I can understand why town!FS would be suspicious of Marquis. There are more reasons I still scumread you, but the Marquis read has been one of my biggest sticking points.

[podoboq]

i'm not seeing decent townplay from marquis.sensible posting, sure. but not good townplay.

that's what I'm saying with that post >_>

ya dude im agreeing with you >_>

Are you talking to me here, or are the heads of the Hydra talking to eachother?

[podoboq]

do you think scum-us take on that pressure? of being the only ones scumreading Marquis? The first to push TPP?

I mean, I haven't played with you before, so I believe it's a real possibility, yes. You seem like the kind of scum who'd be ballsy, especially when pushed into a corner the whole game (which everyone agrees you have been.)

[podoboq]

who the fuckscumreads a cop and doesn't push it

NOT SCUM

I'd be pushing a 1v1 down marquis throat as scum, NOT kindly encouraging people they aren't clear

This seems like a fine point, but it seems more beneficial to people with meta knowledge on you. I'm on the TPP train right now, so you can calm down on the defense. I'm seeing your point, saving it, and will definitely be considering it in the future.

[podoboq]

Cool, but please don't include me on any train with dramonic. Also, not intending to lynch TPP here. I want them to claim, because I don't like dancing around their PR.

[podoboq]

VOTE: TPP

Fuck it. The cat's out of the bag. You're already a night-kill target if you're town. Tell us what you know. It's in town's best interest.

The cat that's in the bag is that we know a good number of PRs. Outing them very likely isn't in town's best interest, don't you think?

The cat that's out of the bag is that you have a PR, because you softed way too hard. So why don't you give us the information you have, so we can work with something, rather than just getting night-killed and losing it?

[podoboq]

Do you think that I am a competent player?

Yeah, but I also think you could be a competent player how's scum. Town shouldn't have reason to conceal information in this game state, as far as I can see it, so if you don't reveal, I have reason to believe you're scum.

So yeah, if that's how this is going, then I'll leave my vote here for now. If you're legit town, with a legit reason not to reveal your role, then sorry for the push.

[podoboq]

if you don't reveal, I have reason to believe you're scum.

Why wouldn't we reveal as scum? Do you think that we are saying all these things about outing PRs and just don't have an explanation for them or...?

Scum who has soft claimed a PR benefits from not claiming. The second you claim a specific role, you need to fit all of your knowledge into knowledge that role would have. It makes the game a lot more complicated for you. Plus, claiming gives people the opportunity to counterclaim. If you can get away with not claiming as scum, it's obviously better for you.

[podoboq]

This TPP stuff is shit, they could claim but they obviously are some sort of Investigative so no point in outing it all.

Except True Ogre and Marquis did.

I have one theory as to what their PR could be if they're legitimate, and I'll be rereading with that in mind. I could unvote here. I think there are better targets, I just don't like how we're treating the soft claim. It seems lazy.

[podoboq]

And if I'm town, I'm not claiming because the information that I know will either be patently obvious from my flip or because it is information that will be bad for town if outed.

At this point, I'm more worried at the potential consequences if you're scum that we let go than the consequences if you're town who is forced to claim.

[podoboq]

UNVOTE:
Cakez apprehension is good enough for me. TPP, I'll trust you for now, until you give me active reason to scumread you.

The risk of you claiming as town is that it gives scum more information to inform a night-kill. That's basically all I can really think of.

The risk of you not being forced to claim as scum is that you get to coast on implied PR without actually having to offer town any information to work with.

Situation 1) is not all that big of a disaster, while situation 2) kind of is. I hope that explains my position on this.

[podoboq]

LOL.
BACK FUCKING TRACK

Wrong. Please quote the post where TPP suggest their scumread on you is beast on some PR result.

[podoboq]

you're both town stop

>reading FS as town
Since fucking when?

[podoboq]

VOTE: FS

They're dealing with my scumread on them by attempting to placate me, but TPP's by misrepping and other various garbage. Yup.

[podoboq]

Since a while ago?

Read your ISO. I see it. Last I knew you were still considering jumping on the wagon.

[podoboq]

Since a while ago?

I read your ISO.

I see it. Last I knew you were still considering jumping on the wagon.

Correction to clarify. Wasn't commanding you to read your ISO. Was saying that I read your ISO.

[podoboq]

I don't remember that Podo, can you quote it?

Remember what, being on the fence at one point? Must have been a long time ago, or a different person. I'm more behindthat I thought I was.

[podoboq]

^^^^ yup ^^^^

[podoboq]

Thanks for revealing information, TPP. I, for one, think that benefits town more than scum.

I think you're wrong about Cakez, though. His posting on Snarky wasn't any more crumbing than mine was. I think he's obv town, but I think I'm pretty sure who the vig is, and it's not him. That said, we should obviously drop that part of the conversation for now.

[podoboq]

I thought they were competent enough players to not blindly dumb information because Dwlee of all people was calling them scum. This makes my life so much more difficult than it has to be. 1 + though, Flubber should probably out his invest result.

Podo you are 100% alone in that. Please never out who the vig is thankyouverymuchthen.

I think they know what they were doing with that dump. My opinion is that they're smart enough to not reveal information that would make the game worse for town, as town. Vig is obviously a powerful role, and I have no intention of revealing who it is. Good luck to scum on making more use of that information dump than town can.

[podoboq]

Because TPP's claim was cleary bs and I knew it. I made good points about why it was bs and no one listened.

You basically made one point; a misrep about how they implied they were an investigative role (which they didn't), and then said that their knowledge doesn't come from being an investigative role. If I'm misremembering that in some way, let me know, and I'll go look through your ISO and quote all the instances I can find.

[podoboq]

Also, yeah, if anybody is discrediting dwlee because he's young, fuck you, because that's bullshit. Dramonic's posts are far less coherent and mature than dwlee's.

[podoboq]

Your play this game regardless of your age has been fairly useless. I'm not too much older than you but seriously you've managed to out town PRs and waste 3-4 days. If you are town you were really close to getting in the towncircle and if you were scum you might have had a chance of winning the game for your team but yeah that's not going to happen.

Quick stuff cause my life gets super hectic soon. May have to go VLA.

Never should be lynched:
Cake
90% Cerb
Ogre
Marquis
dave
TWL
Pistach
(me)

Should never endgame
Axel
FS
Mirhawk
Podo imo. Like he has his town moments and then he has his moments,

like his post before he agreed with me

, that feel like scum just trying to fit in.
Probably Dwlee.

I don't really remember agreeing with you on anything in particular, unless you've come around on Dram being useless to town.

Also I think Dram has had decent moments when he showed up, it just isn't enough for me to really call him conftown like I want to. He has, in my opinion, a much more solid opinion of the gamestate that Dwlee.

nope. Please point me to the post you're talking about.

[podoboq]

Yeah. The only things you said were that they claimed knowledge of PR's(which they did do), implied they were an investigative(which they didn't, as podo said), and they softed an innocent on someone(which they sorta did, but this lose a lot of meaning if you aren't assuming they claimed an investigative). You then put all that together in a blender, and realized none of it added up to a single role you could call them, and decided that meant part of what they were saying had to be untrue, therefore they are scum, without EVER considering that they could actually have just arrived at a number of conclusions through their analysis.

Don't think it really matters though, except I kinda do want to lynch you, but I don't think anybody else does. Like, does anybody else see dwlee as potentially scum here? I really feel like we need to look outside the established "probtown" group and the people that have been getting consistently pushed to the edge of being lynched.

pedit: pip, you really need to explain that read on me. I fucking suck man. And the only game you have with me was SF and UNIMUM(right? you were in unimum right?), where I was, well, a fucking marvel of posting. I was always there, I was on top of the entire game, and I had something to say about EVERYTHING.

I can see wagonning on dwlee here. Let's do it and see what happens. VOTE: dwlee

Because TPP's claim was cleary bs and I knew it. I made good points about why it was bs and no one listened.

You basically made one point; a misrep about how they implied they were an investigative role (which they didn't), and then said that their knowledge doesn't come from being an investigative role. If I'm misremembering that in some way, let me know, and I'll go look through your ISO and quote all the instances I can find.

time to get the iso!!

On it!

[podoboq]

Spoiler: lots of ways of saying the same thing

"we would out a bunch of prs by claiming"
"I do not have info on town prs"
Eat ropeeeeeee

Softs inno -> would out town prs by claiming -> no info on town prs.
Eat rope eat rope eat rope eat rope eat rope eat rope eat rope

"we would out a bunch of prs by claiming"
"I do not have info on town prs"
Eat ropeeeeeee

You said that my role was that I knew a bunch of information on town PRs.
I did not claim that my role was that I knew a bunch of information on town PRs.

claiming that you woukd out town prs by claiming meanns you have info on town prs. You cant backtrack this

No.

ARE YOU SAYING YOU DIDNT SOFT AN INNO? THAT WAS AN INNO SOFT 100%.
EAT ROPE EAT ROPE

Why was softing an innocent on Tictac scummy?

admits to softing an inno on tictac
"that was not a soft"

TPP just summarize everything you have softed.

Dwlee shut up you are not helping. Prattling on about TPP is just wasting thread space.

Sorry I am laying on a silver platter all of their fucking contradictions and that you see that as a waste of space. I will sit here and do nothing since apparently no matter what I do I am just wasting.thread space =_=

Lol. Can we go back.to talking about how tpp claimed that claiming would out prs but later said he had no info on prs?

OGRE THEY CONTRADICTED THEIR CLAIMS PLEASE

On a serious, saying info about your role is claiming on a smaller level. Stop trying to argue semantics and answer how tf your contradicton makes sense

Ok so:
Claiming woukd out prs
I have no info on prs
I have info from my role
sjntbfbnfj

I am not 3p

that's what i wanted to hear. sorry, dreams are weird, and usually someone's alignment is the exact opposite of what I dream so if i dream they flip scum then they're always town (but of course i don't use that to clear them while i'm playing the game), but what is the "exact opposite" of benign third party?

My point was that before someone says the obvious "OMG DON"T PUT YOURSELF IN YOUR AUTO CIRCLE!!" is not relevant.

meh, everyone has themselves in their own circle. i kind of roll my eyes when i see someone claiming to townread themselves but anyway carry on.

not crumbing softing same thing

TPP what was your intention with that soft?

We've been saying we have

✫

*

¨

*

.

¸

reasons

¸

¸

.

✫

*

to believe that tictac is town since the start of day 2. It's just the first soft that anybody paid any attention to. I can't answer your question more fully without outing a bunch of PRs for no reason; sorry. If anybody I believed to be town were in danger of being lynched I'd explain enough to prevent that from happening but as it is all you really need to know is that I have a townread on tictac that will be explained sooner or later. Possibly sooner not until my hydra partner is less busy.

I do not have a role that "lets me know other power roles".

oh yea.
So you say your claim wiuld out prs becauss you can tell who prs are (such as a vigilante) and yet that makes no sense because your claim wouldnt out that

p-edit: Why did you do my work for me? Posting this anyway because damnit, I did the work anyway.

[podoboq]

Frankly, I trust Cakez and itlepip for being willing to pressure me. Like, my posting has been incredibly inconsistent, and I feel like I've been easy mislynch bait, but I'm starting to think that scum intends on using that to their advantage in the late game since a weird number of players are treating me like obvtown when frankly, I don't think I am. FS wants to vote me because I'm pushing them, and they know they should be able to counterwagon me, but they refuse to because they know I'm more useful to scum in the late game, so instead they call me godtown so that I survive to the late game.

I think itlepip is probably right. I'd be dangerous to bring to the late game. That doesn't mean I want people to lynch me or anything, I'm just saying I like that itlepip and Cakez seem willing to do it, when people I read as scum seem unwilling.

[podoboq]

Apparently dwlee wagon isn't happening. Cerb, I thought you wanted to do that.

VOTE: FS

[podoboq]

We're gonna lose the game anyways, this town is entirely composed of people who want to sit on their dick.
Except Dwlee cuz that concept hasn't crossed his mind yet.
But you could AT LEAST do the right thing and vote them.

Could you remind me again who your scumreads are? Cerb, me, and Axel, right? Can you remind me what your case is on any of us? You've had an extra while to make that case since I asked you almost a month ago.

[podoboq]

I never called Cerb scum. Considering my ISO is almost entirely one-liners I'm sure you could be half-assed to go through it and find out by yourself. And my case has generally been "I've been reading the game, they're obvscum, you guys are idiots".
How is this news to you?
Podo-Axel-TPP-[dav but theres an inno on him for now] is what I've been saying.

Ah, dav, that's right. He's the one I forgot.

There's still no case. If we're obvscum, I'm sure you could be half-assed enough to make a case on at least one of us.

[podoboq]

We're gonna lose the game anyways, this town is entirely composed of people who want to sit on their dick.

^
There's my case for not making a case.

@Flubber

: Confirm/Deny that you are neighbor with TPP?

Wait, so you're saying there are three obvscum (now four assuming you include TPP), but you're just not going to put in any effort to make those lynches happen because town is so stupid that we already lost?

Why don't you replace out instead of completely wasting a slot in this game?

[podoboq]

I'm not "not going to put in any effort", but TPP is so obvscum with every post and people are apparently giving them a free pass of trashplay because "well they're not sloppy!~<3"

Take my position,

if I were to claim scum right here, right now, and people called me town

, would you be pleased?

Is this not basically what has been happening?

[podoboq]

VOTE: Mirhawk

Seems good.

[podoboq]

@someone I trust, is there anything proving itlepip as town? I can't remember

I mean, not really. The only thing making me like itlepip is gut, but I hate his defense of dramonic, and the related interaction we had on the topic several pages back.

[podoboq]

Happy to lynch (in descending order of happiness):
dramonic (always happy for this)
Mirhawk
FS

Will accept, begrudgingly:
Cerberus
dwlee
TPP (this and dwlee are to resolve the conflict. one of the two needs to die soon, and TPP's mislynch could at least have protown implications in proving their reads as legit town's. I will only accept if the only other option is no lynch)

[podoboq]

I'm aware I'm not scumhunting right now Mirhawk and it's largely because everyone wants TPP/FS dead and those are both fairly strong town reads of mine so its making it difficult.

I'd really like an Axel wagon

You could always make a case on Mirhawk, you know, the leading wagon, which you were voting for. But instead you're complaining about how we're all voting for town (when you're on the leading wagon), and then starting a new vanity wagon with three days on the clock.

What?

[podoboq]

Yesyesyesyesyes
VOTE: Mirhawk

Why is it so hard to form a Mirhawk wagon all of a sudden? Marquis has a pretty solid case.

I'm aware I'm not scumhunting right now Mirhawk and it's largely because everyone wants TPP/FS dead and those are both fairly strong town reads of mine so its making it difficult.

I'd really like an Axel wagon

VOTE: Axelrod
You guys should join this! I know there's a bunch of people with scumreads on this guy and he's basically coasting.

What changed?

[podoboq]

Eh, I'm liking Mirhawk latest here. If Marquis and Cakez are alright with Axel, I'm alright with it as well.

VOTE: Axelrod

[podoboq]

Eh, I'm liking Mirhawk latest here. If Marquis and Cakez are alright with Axel, I'm alright with it as well.

VOTE: Axelrod

Well, that came out of left field.

You're not going to turn out to actually be scum, are you podo? Because that would make me sad.

Nope

You're putting your faith in Cakez?

CAKEZ?

He and Marquis are the only players I have experience playing with, and I feel like I can read him. He gives me town vibes, though switching off of Mirhawk without an explanation rubbed me the wrong way. I debated scumreading it, but the only way he's scum doing that is if Mirhawk is a scum partner, and that just seems too bananas to be true.

*that was still to podo.

I really have to go make a case.

On whom?

[podoboq]

His musical doesn't match the town musicals we've seen so far.

If scum want to fakeclaim they're going to need to do better than claiming their actual flavour.

How do any of them match? I assume everyone has a unique musical (except for lovers, which makes sense.) I haven't seen my musical come up either. His musical doesn't match the scum musical either. I don't see any pattern to derive from the musical alone.

[podoboq]

Well, I'm Pippin from Pippin, which is current, so maybe True Ogre has a point.

[podoboq]

But mine also isn't currently

on Broadway

.

[podoboq]

And who gives a shit? Flavour diving is inherently dangerous

Agreed. Especially on someone who claims Vanilla Townie. I doubt there's a lot of flavor correlation with VT.

[podoboq]

upset by fs ditching mirhawk when it gets to l-2

don't wanna do associative tells but not liking either of those slots makes it feel worse

Are you not upset with Cakez for ditching Mirhawk at L-1?

[podoboq]

At this point, I think an Axel lynch seems impossible. I think Mirhawk is scum, but I'm not entirely convinced, and I don't think his flip will do as much active good to solidify reads as solving the TPP vs FS fight, so I feel like I have to make a stand there.

The only real thing stopping me from a TPP lynch has been other players' perspectives. I scumread the people wagonning on TPP, and townread the people wagonning FS, but just reading their posts, I honestly think TPP is more scummy. So maybe I have to reevaluate my perspectives on dwlee, dramonic,

TO

talah, etc. Basically everybody. But I'm joining the TPP wagon, and crossing my fingers.

VOTE: The Pied Piper

[podoboq]

Unvote

Vote: Friendless Seniors

Better than Mirhawk.

This is making me more confident in my decision.

[podoboq]

I'll be playing Overwatch on my other monitor, but I'll be checking in between rounds in case anyone wants to discuss things.

In the meantime, Cerb, how about contributing something more valuable than this tumbleweed.

...

[podoboq]

I spent a large portion of this morning talking to Nacho, sooo....I've contributed.

Yeah, but posting "..." without anything that could be considered actionable is just useless. Like, is it directed at me, and if so, I'm sure you can pick apart something real to say?

[podoboq]

The only things that have happened since.I was posting earlier are people voting for people I think are town, putting their support behind unlikely lynches on town, instead of votes on scum. This is also increasing the chance that a no lynch occurs.

I think those actions are foolish. Thus, ...

Which clearly means: vote for Axel or Mirhawk, not FS or TPP.

Mirhawk is clearly not happening, and I think we have five confirmed TPP votes, since we can count FS and dramonic on board for sure.

[podoboq]

The only things that have happened since.I was posting earlier are people voting for people I think are town, putting their support behind unlikely lynches on town, instead of votes on scum. This is also increasing the chance that a no lynch occurs.

I think those actions are foolish. Thus, ...

Which clearly means: vote for Axel or Mirhawk, not FS or TPP.

Mirhawk is clearly not happening, and I think we have five confirmed TPP votes, since we can count FS and dramonic on board for sure.

Also, Axel is clearly not happening either.

[podoboq]

As far as I can tell not much has changed since I was here last.

I've addressed the big claim situation that everyone hates so much, which is something I'm surprised Podo hasn't responded to yet!

See, Cerb, this is actionable.

I think most of people's flaws with your claiming situation are kind of trash. Like, you were frustrated, you said some stuff you knew, you kept some cards close to your chest, and they're saying that you're lying because you didn't show all the cards. I think that's a dumb response. It's the reason I'm upset with people on your wagon. Here's what people should be saying.

I think that calling Cakez vig is obviously garbage, and I think it's a lie rather than something you legitimately believe. As town, I would think you're lying to protect the

actual

vig, but in doing so, you're also creating a really complicated web for us to maneuver, because we can't tell what we're supposed to take at face value. So I don't think you're doing it as town, because a real towny just wouldn't say anything at all. I pushed you to reveal, and then moved off because I considered some information about a jailor, and didn't want to push you into a corner where you had to reveal that information. I moved off, most of the people who still pushed seemed like scumreads of yours, and it seemed wrong to placate them.

As scum, you're claiming to "know" all this stuff about the town, and presenting yourself as an easy leader. It's clearly working, because most people townread you, and most people are trusting what you're saying, especially in a game where it appears a lot of players just aren't reading, and are inclined to trust the player who seems to be doing the most.

I think the neighbor thing is legitimate, but it obviously doesn't make you town on its own. I might be misunderstanding elements of your role, but who else is in the neighborhood, for argument's sake? Is this not worth discussing?


I keep bouncing back and forth between FS, and I try to never play with my gut or my "feelings" about specific players, but I honestly just get a town vibe from them. The way they play bothers me a lot, because I have a hard time seeing town motivation in stuff like fervently defending Skybird for seemingly no reason, but the way they communicate just screams town to me in a way I can't entirely vocalize.

And then you're the opposite to me. The level of work you put into something like that interaction map (I don't remember who you did it on) is frankly dumbfounding, and it looks so damn town, but your actually dialog with players seems scummy, again, in a way I don't really understand or have the ability to vocalize. When some of your play has clear potential scum motivation (like the bogus vig claim), gut turns out to be the tie breaker.

[podoboq]

I think that calling Cakez vig is obviously garbage, and I think it's a lie rather than something you legitimately believe.

Okay, let's talk about this first. Why do you believe that it's a lie as opposed to something I could legitimately believe?

you claim to be a lot better than all of the newbs, I'm a newb, and I know that Cakez isn't the vig

You should be better at figuring that out than I am.

[podoboq]

you claim to be a lot better than all of the newbs, I'm a newb, and I know that Cakez isn't the vig

You should be better at figuring that out than I am.

You know that Cakez isn't the vig? How?

Unlike you, I have no interest in revealing that, because I'm more worried about the vig getting nightkilled than you believing me.

[podoboq]

So you know that Cakez is the vig because you know who the real vig is?

Isn't*, and yeah, to my knowledge. I'm confident enough that I think you're lying, rather than me just being wrong. I also don't think you have good cause to believe Cakez is vig in the first place.

[podoboq]

Why would you bring up that you know Cakez isn't the vig if you don't want to talk about it?

Not wanting to talk about it is not the same as not wanting to reveal who I think the vig is.

[podoboq]

OK.
Why would I lie about thinking Cakez is the vig?

As town, to conceal who it actually is and get the scum to target someone who isn't the vig.

As scum, to convince town that you are useful.

[podoboq]

As scum, you're claiming to "know" all this stuff about the town, and presenting yourself as an easy leader. It's clearly working, because most people townread you, and most people are trusting what you're saying, especially in a game where it appears a lot of players just aren't reading, and are inclined to trust the player who seems to be doing the most.

People naturally regard us as a leader because we post a lot of posts and we post long posts. Getting a leader position that we already have by being loud by saying we "know things" about player's roles but having no capacity whatsoever to back it up is... stupid as shit, and doesn't make sense as scum motivation since it means we could get caught by people asking "what are the roles?".

Meta. You're appealing to knowledge I don't have. I see clear scum motivation here. But hey, fair argument. Taken note of.

[podoboq]

As scum, to convince town that you are useful.

And why would I do this when the town already thinks that I am useful?

You were under a lot of suspicion. For a while, you had me convinced, even though I didn't believe the call in the first place. I don't know, it seems like a valuable play to make. When a lot of people are questioning you, it's gutsy, but it makes sense, and when you can just argue "I got it from reading crumbs, I could be wrong," and I think the other thing is true anyway, it's not really that big of a risk.

[podoboq]

who am I compromise lynching
@FS @Dramonic @Sircakez @Mirhawk

TPP or Axel.

vote: TPP

people dont want tpp lynched. do you want to move to axel?

I think TPP is a bit more likely to happen here, and it's more important to lynch either them or FS here. Move to TPP. It can be done.

[podoboq]

Meta. You're appealing to knowledge I don't have. I see clear scum motivation here. But hey, fair argument. Taken note of.

I'm appealing to what was happening earlier in the game; people were already looking at us as a leader before the whole claim business, and it's not like there's a player in the game who would go "they say they know things! they must be town and a leader!" and not "they're busting their ass this game and look at all that pushing they're doing! they must be town and a leader!"

I was looking at Marquis as a leader, because she had information. Actionable, real information. When you claim to have the same, it elevates your position from being a good player with strong reads to being more than that.

[podoboq]

I"m already on tpp, podo. lol

Doing a lot of stuff at once, oops.

[podoboq]

You're going to no lynch.

And podo, mirhawk was up to 8 votes at one point

Axel has at least 5, more like 7/8 people who have him among the people they're willing to lynch today.

It's very disingenuous to suggest that FS and TPP are anywhere close to the slots most likely to be successfully lynched today.

We started a wagon on Axel, and obviously it wasn't happening. Everyone on the Axel wagon would vote for TPP, making the TPP wagon larger, so.......

As far as Mirhawk is concerned, it's probably viable. I don't want to vote there anymore, shrinking the pool a bit. I think I showed with the Ranger lynch that I'm unwilling to accept a no lynch. Mirhawk is basically a no lynch when compared to the lynches of FS or TPP. That's how we move the game forward, so that's what needs to happen.

[podoboq]

You're going to no lynch.

And podo, mirhawk was up to 8 votes at one point

Axel has at least 5, more like 7/8 people who have him among the people they're willing to lynch today.

It's very disingenuous to suggest that FS and TPP are anywhere close to the slots most likely to be successfully lynched today.

We started a wagon on Axel, and obviously it wasn't happening. Everyone on the Axel wagon would vote for TPP, making the TPP wagon larger, so.......

As far as Mirhawk is concerned, it's probably viable. I don't want to vote there anymore, shrinking the pool a bit. I think I showed with the Ranger lynch that I'm unwilling to accept a no lynch. Mirhawk is basically a no lynch when compared to the lynches of FS or TPP. That's how we move the game forward, so that's what needs to happen.

Cakez would easily move back. I would easily move there. Talah and dave are both going to the biggest wagon.

So yeah. Axel is fucking easy.

Mirhawk is even easier.

And FS is obviously easy. So if you aren't voting for TPP, just lynch FS. No stupid half measures. Let's solve the game.

[podoboq]

I was looking at Marquis as a leader, because she had information. Actionable, real information. When you claim to have the same, it elevates your position from being a good player with strong reads to being more than that.

But, as scum, this is not a risk that's worth the reward. The only way that I can get anywhere by lying about information on ROLES that I don't have is by people not questioning it, and the benefit is that I'm elevated slightly above where I already am, and the place where I am is good enough where I can still push mislynches and get shit done. As scum, I wouldn't lie about something like role speculation when I could tell the truth instead and where a risk of that magnitude gains me basically nothing. I don't know why you think that I as scum would lie about Cakez being vig if I wanted to act like I knew things when I could just focus on the tictac neighborhood, and I don't know why you think that I would tell tictac to activate their bulletproof if I didn't think I knew who the vig was.

We clearly disagree on the benefit that you get out of claiming to know about town roles. When you're claiming to have that information based on your reading of crumbs, the risk is also a lot smaller than I think you're making it out to be.

[podoboq]

Also, fuck all of you if you actually lynch fs or TPP for fucking informarion, because that's what podo argument (and others) basically amounts to.

Pedit: naw I'll let a no lynch happen today because you're all acting to shift wagons hardcore with less than 12 hours left, on the fucking weekend, when people are less active.

One of FS or TPP must be scum, as far as I can tell. Seems obvious to lynch one of the two.

Or you could no lynch because you refuse to take sides like an imbecile.

[podoboq]

One of FS or TPP must be scum, as far as I can tell. Seems obvious to lynch one of the two.

Where did this come from?

Do you not think that's accurate? You think there's a chance that you v FS is town v town?

[podoboq]

TPP, weren't you making exactly the same argument just a few hours ago to why you and FS should be the only options to lynch?

[podoboq]

One of FS or TPP must be scum, as far as I can tell. Seems obvious to lynch one of the two.

Where did this come from?

Do you not think that's accurate? You think there's a chance that you v FS is town v town?

That question wasn't about me.

You've tunneled FS so damn hard here, that I think it's clearly not bussing. If FS flips town, you're just wrong on a scale that I think points to scumminess rather than ignorance.

[podoboq]

FS and TPP is TvT as fuck.

And....don't insult my intelligence podo. You do not want to go down that rabbit hole, and the game doesn't have enough time in the day phase for us ro spend time on it. I'm well aware of what I'm doing, and why. Maybe you guys should just lynch fu king mirhawk amd then it wouldn't be a problem..

Sorry, I crossed a line. I'm drinking, riled up, and distracted, so suggesting a no lynch just stirred me the wrong way.

I'd like some explanation as to why you think FS and TPP is town v town.

[podoboq]

If I flip town, I'm right about FS because I pushed it so hard. If FS flipped town, there's no way that I could be town because there's no way a townie could be so wrong. Right?

Sure, that's what I'm saying. You are supposedly good enough at this game that I expect you to be right when you're so sure of yourself. So yeah, I'm expecting this not to be town v town for that. Maybe that's misguided of me, but I'm also terrified enough of your hypothetical to FS (where scum you just eliminates the people who would lynch them) that I want to solve this.


I need to head to sleep, and expect to be up before deadline. In case I'm unable to make it back, I'm unwilling to accept a no lynch, and FS lynch is more likely, so I'll park my vote there while I sleep. I'm always willing to accept that I'm wrong, so hey, maybe TPP is cool after all and I'm actually on the right wagon now. FS, if you get lynched while I'm away, at least it's over. Sorry this game was a dick to you. VOTE: FS

[podoboq]

I don't even read TPP's posts.

How do we ever lynch scum!TPP when THIS kind of content is the wagon against them?

[podoboq]

2. podo says that TPP is more likely to happen in 5199 by a large margin.

I thought TPP was more likely than Axel my a large margin. I think it's obvious that TPP was a long shot compared to your lynch.

[podoboq]

3. podo says that one of TPP/FS must be scum. I don't see how this is a certainty, but you seem to explain it-
4. because nacho is a good enough player that he must be scum if he's wrong about us. which is... certainly not true and i'm having trouble understanding why you think it would be true. And i'm also having trouble understanding how you think that it's the only reason that nacho is scum from your perspective (in the event of a townflip from us). I mean, do you know Nacho? And even if you did, no one reads with 100% accuracy?

I know that "I was wrong, derp," is never a real defense, but yeah, I think I was wrong. It's a bad line of thought, and I was being a bit too radical last night.

[podoboq]

there's no chance of a podo flashwagon, but I ask that town look at this fella with a bit more scrutiny.

Please do. I feel like people are just treating me like a dumb new player the whole game, and writing me off as obv town because of it. I haven't really gotten to play much because I have no information, and nobody suspects me for....reasons. And town should be better than that. Somebody please ISO me so we have stuff to talk about tomorrow.

[podoboq]

Why the fuck did this happen? Literally the only town case presented on Mir is dwlee 'he agrees with me on TPP' and TPP just like a shit gut thing.

VOTE: FS

There's also the argument that Marquis's case is a bit lacking, and some could be misrep. I trust Marquis, but I don't see it, and I think that solving this feud should be a priority.

[podoboq]

VOTE: Mirhawk

Awesome vig shot. I feel way better about this game now.

[podoboq]

Pretty close to rescinding my townread on Dram.

As much as I hate to say it. I've come around on dram. Basically confident that he's town now.

[podoboq]

I still don't like how he's playing the game, but pretty sure he's not scum.

[podoboq]

also I'm pretty sure I didn't hammer

I know. There's only 5 votes on him total. Shoulda kept up the act longer though shotty.

Nah I got what I want. I had reason to believe he was telling the truth, but that seemed like a good opportunity to test the waters.
VOTE: flubber feels like a good vote after the fake l-1

I have no idea why you're scumreading flubber for doing what you were doing....before you were doing it.....

[podoboq]

if it is sincere it's not a reaction test or a gambit

OK, so let's assume that it wasn't a gambit or a reaction test. Flubber legit thought Mirhawk was at L-1. Why is that scummy?

[podoboq]

if it is sincere it's not a reaction test or a gambit

OK, so let's assume that it wasn't a gambit or a reaction test. Flubber legit thought Mirhawk was at L-1. Why is that scummy?

[podoboq]

also I'm pretty sure I didn't hammer

I know. There's only 5 votes on him total. Shoulda kept up the act longer though shotty.

Nah I got what I want. I had reason to believe he was telling the truth, but that seemed like a good opportunity to test the waters.
VOTE: flubber feels like a good vote after the fake l-1

I have no idea why you're scumreading flubber for doing what you were doing....before you were doing it.....

never said I scum read him. That is the point of putting pressure on them.

So you're not voting for Flubber because you think he's scum? You're voting him for some ephemeral garbage about wanting pressure on him? Why would you want to put pressure on a slot you don't think is scum? We're not in the RVS phase anymore, man.

[podoboq]

OK, so that was weird. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who had connection issues.

FLUBBER I DEMAND AN EXPLANATION FOR US BOTH HAVING TRACKER CRAP

Honestly, what do you expect him to say? He's not the mod. Is it reasonable that we have a one-time tracker and a dedicated tracker? It doesn't seem out of the question to me.

[podoboq]

Well I wanted to see how people would alter play around it but the downtime and absence hasn't been too helpful. I don't have a result; I already claimed I was 2-shot yesterday. ;P People seemed to forget though so I was just like "meh".

I'm fine with lynching and getting on with this.

I wondered what was going on with you. I thought you claimed 2-shot with nothing left, but didn't want to stand in the way of whatever you were doing.

[podoboq]

So it turns out that I can't post the ISO map that I spent a few days making because the maximum size of posts was reduced after the tiger attack

The level of work you put in is flabbergasting, and I wouldn't ask you to do more, but if you want to ISO map and the comment is too big to post, is it possible to create it in a Google Doc and provide the link in your comment instead? Just a thought.

[podoboq]

Or if you're tired of waiting, you have the power to speed it along. You are more to us than just cranky grandpa dramonic.

Why is there AtE is so much of what you say?

This is wrong. You are wrong. That isn't AtE.

[podoboq]

It's concerning to me that everyone who I am more suspicious of than confident in (podo, itlepip, and cakez) are also on the Mirhawk wagon..I still don't like mirhawk though. This is a terrible quqndary I find myself in..

Most of my town reads are refusing to vote (Marquis, TPP, you). I'm townreading Cakez and dramonic at this point, and they're on opposite wagons.

Basically, same.

[podoboq]

Actually, I don't want to lynch Mirhawk. He seemed genuinely suspicious of Skybird reading through his iso.

VOTE: SirCakez

Cakez is town though <_<

[podoboq]

Friendless Seniors: The Pied Piper, Flubbernugget, talah, Axelrod, Malakittens, davesaz, podoboq, itlepip, Mirhawk (9)

Actually look at this wagon. Mir hammered it, Axel was in it in a safe spot, another scumread for me (Flubber) lead it.

This might be an opinion difference, but I don't think a counterwagon counts

unless scum are actively trying to push it

. I'm pretty sure flubber wasn't, I don't think Axel was either (though I cant remember entirely), and

I know I wasn't

.

So if it was a counterwagon who was pushing it.

Is this what a scum slip looks like? Usually, I'm not a fan of people yelling "scum slip," but I have to admit this looks kind of egregious to me. Anyone else have thoughts?

[podoboq]

The votes on him are easy to get. He's effectively lynched right now. Marquis and I are both willing to vote for him, we just haven't because(in my case at least) I was hoping there would be some decent conversation today.

Luckily for us, the golden goddess Marquis has returned to bring concise and relevant thoughts. Now if we could shut Mirhawk and TPP up, kill dramonic's apathy, and get dwlee to start thinking about non-TPP related stuff, we might be able to use the day.

[podoboq]

Friendless Seniors: The Pied Piper, Flubbernugget, talah, Axelrod, Malakittens, davesaz, podoboq, itlepip, Mirhawk (9)

Actually look at this wagon. Mir hammered it, Axel was in it in a safe spot, another scumread for me (Flubber) lead it.

This might be an opinion difference, but I don't think a counterwagon counts

unless scum are actively trying to push it

. I'm pretty sure flubber wasn't, I don't think Axel was either (though I cant remember entirely), and

I know I wasn't

.

So if it was a counterwagon who was pushing it.

Is this what a scum slip looks like? Usually, I'm not a fan of people yelling "scum slip," but I have to admit this looks kind of egregious to me. Anyone else have thoughts?

This can only be a scumslip if flubber is also scum, but I was scumreading flubber anyway. Like, it seems to perfect to be true, but at the same time, it checks out.

[podoboq]

I'm so glad Mala and Pistach are confirmed town ftr god

I'm not disagreeing, but Mala isn't actually confirmed by anything, is she? Do we have an invest on her I missed or something?

[podoboq]

Dont try to push scum slips ffs
I once gave someone a town read for being the first on a wagon that hadnt even flipped scum yet after just sheeping my vote on the wagon. I was town lol

Wasn't pushing it. Just pointing it out and asking the question. I've legit scumslipped in games before, but I feel like most of the time it's actually just nothing. It seemed noteworthy here, so I wanted to make note of it.

[podoboq]

Shotty's flavor cop claim needs to be tested legitimately also. The Mirhawk check after he had already claimed doesn't count.

We can do that,

People who haven't claimed flavor in this game should point that out so that shotty knows his choices. I've already claimed.

[podoboq]

I'm not going to commit to one person

obv

Why, because I'm not your scum buddy?

is you srs?

[podoboq]

What was the whole Tracker issue with... Flubber and Dwlee, I think? I lost track of that.

Dwlee counterclaimed Flubber's one-shot and then retracted his counterclaim.

Since you've been here the whole time and clearly not as averse to doing a lot of digging, want to show me Flubber's reaction to that? Please?

I treated him like a dumbass but his inability to make any attempt to sort me from his actions is scummy

That's a good point. Dwlee has completely dropped the ball on actually trying to accomplish something with that counterclaim gambit.

[podoboq]

Prod dodge / read list:

Def Town:

Marquis

- Pretty self explanatory. I also happen to have experience with her play, and she's playing basically exactly the same way she did last time we were town together. Not lynching.

dramonic

- I didn't want to have to spell this out, but look at the voting pattern. Dramonic voted Axelrod before it was cool, when Axelrod had absolutely no pressure on him, for basically the entire game. Dramonic is town.

pistachion

- duh

Mala

- Marquis has an innocent on her.

Pretty towny:

Cakez

- A lot of gut. A lot of consistency with how he played as town in our previous game. A lot of him having good reads. A lot of players I trust trusting him. I think Cakez is good.

shotty

- Don't like his opinions on the current game state, but I liked TO/Talah a lot. Would like to have him back.

Flubbernugget

- I don't know why, but I like him. I was ready to lynch Tictac, but I like Flubber's claim, and his contributing today has been worthy of keeping him around, as opposed to some other players in the game.

Pretty scummy:

dwlee

- HEY, HOW ABOUT BUILDING A CASE INSTEAD OF SHOUTING INTO THE VOID, which is basically what I'm doing by trying to speak any amount of reason to you.

itlepip

- Kinda just tired of this slot, to be honest. Beeboy was a whole lot of wifom, death tunneling someone who is now confirmed town. Itlepip protected dramonic for absolutely no reason other than "I think he's town, lol," then backed off of voting me when I was adamant about my read, but didn't actually vote for dramonic, or explain why he stopped voting for me. Like, I was 1v1ing dramonic, itlepip picked a side, then just jumped out of the middle of it when I gave him shit for it. Dramonic and I were town v town, and itlepip probably just realized he should leave me alone and let me fight rather than egg anything on, because it was bringing attention to him. But that's just how I'm reading it. If anyone forgets this exchange, and would like me to find the post number where it starts, I'll go digging.

I don't even know what to think any more:

TPP

- If I wanted to read a book, I would have finished Game of Thrones by now.

Cerberus

- All of his votes in the game have been for Mirhawk, which I find really weird. I don't know how to read this slot basically at all. I intend to ISO it at some point.

I trust Marquis:

Mirhawk

- Mirhawk seems pretty genuine to me here, and is reminding me a lot of FS. I also like the basic villager claim, because I'm certain we have some, and he's the first to claim basic, rather than some random power role. So far, the two scum have had weird modifiers. Mirhawk could safely claim that, or anything else that Rob provided as a fake claim, but instead he just says basic. I don't think that's farfetched.


I'm voting Mirhawk because I trust Marquis to read him better than I would, so I'm basically sheeping. If it were up to me, I'd lynch dwlee or itlepip here, or remove TPP and just call it a day.

[podoboq]

I told you: Mirhawk is town

WHY prove it besides lol I'm dlwleel my RNG generator said that Mir is town guyzzz sheep me plssssss tpp so scumzzz comez on guyzz y u no shep dis logic doh

"RNG generator"

[podoboq]

VOTE: podoboq

I like that you're diversifying your voting patterns for the first time in the game, but are you gonna elaborate on this?

[podoboq]

It's concerning to me that everyone who I am more suspicious of than confident in (podo, itlepip, and cakez) are also on the Mirhawk wagon..I still don't like mirhawk though. This is a terrible quqndary I find myself in..

Pistachion, how do you feel about podoboq and itlepip?

I'm getting "I'm more suspicious of podoboq than confident in him," but I'm not seeing a reason for that. But whatever. If you decide to actually address me in a significant way, then we can start talking through whatever it is that's making you suspicious of me.

[podoboq]

VOTE: TPP

[podoboq]

Warning: I think this is L-1

[podoboq]

I don't have any significant analysis re: dramonic. I think that he's been utterly useless this game, and will continue to be useless for a very long time. I don't think expecting him to be accurate is a fair expectation. I don't think that he's particularly unlikely to bus as scum, especially if he's pissed off at scum partners. If Dwlee is scum, I'd probably slot him closer towards town (since I can't imagine him not bussing there unless Dwlee talked about how great he was in the scum QT or something).

I think that the reason that Podo was townreading him was because he's confident about his reads and also an ass to everyone who disagrees with them, but that's dramonic regardless of alignment and I'm not sure that I see anything here that's particularly fakeable.

Wow, a lot just happened. I basically have no idea what the hell dwlee's role is or why it's still day. I'll look into it once I've responded to some in thread stuff. Nine hours to cobble together a lynch after this is kind of terrible, though.

[podoboq]

I don't have any significant analysis re: dramonic. I think that he's been utterly useless this game, and will continue to be useless for a very long time. I don't think expecting him to be accurate is a fair expectation. I don't think that he's particularly unlikely to bus as scum, especially if he's pissed off at scum partners. If Dwlee is scum, I'd probably slot him closer towards town (since I can't imagine him not bussing there unless Dwlee talked about how great he was in the scum QT or something).

I think that the reason that Podo was townreading him was because he's confident about his reads and also an ass to everyone who disagrees with them

, but that's dramonic regardless of alignment and I'm not sure that I see anything here that's particularly fakeable.

I actually hate players like this. You'll remember I wanted to lynch him basically up until today.

I'm townreading him for his voting patterns (which I already stated.) He was basically voting for Axelrod all game. That matters for something to me.

[podoboq]

LMFAO
So TPP is basically confirmed town then! So glad I didn't hammer.

We should be looking for scum off-wagon now.
(Mirhawk, Podo, itle, dram) = pool

I agree.

Don't like lynching Mirhawk, because I think TPP makes a solid case, and I was starting to doubt his scuminess.

Would rather not lynch me, obviously.

As I just stated, I think dram is town for his voting record on flipped scum.

VOTE: itlepip

[podoboq]

I don't have any significant analysis re: dramonic. I think that he's been utterly useless this game, and will continue to be useless for a very long time. I don't think expecting him to be accurate is a fair expectation. I don't think that he's particularly unlikely to bus as scum, especially if he's pissed off at scum partners. If Dwlee is scum, I'd probably slot him closer towards town (since I can't imagine him not bussing there unless Dwlee talked about how great he was in the scum QT or something).

I think that the reason that Podo was townreading him was because he's confident about his reads and also an ass to everyone who disagrees with them, but that's dramonic regardless of alignment and I'm not sure that I see anything here that's particularly fakeable.

Wow, a lot just happened. I basically have no idea what the hell dwlee's role is or why it's still day. I'll look into it once I've responded to some in thread stuff. Nine hours to cobble together a lynch after this is kind of terrible, though.

OK, just read the mod post more closely. We have two weeks, so it's not nearly as dire as I thought.

Glad I'm part of the lynch pool. Looking forward to engaging with people.

[podoboq]

For everyone who said TPP is town because of Dwlee's flip: how does dramonic read to you now, and why?

Worse, obv. My only logic for him being town was a voting record against Axelrod, but I think TPP is almost definitely town after the flip that just happened, and dram is WAY on the wrong side of that flip.

[podoboq]

vote: TPP

such bus, much wow.

TPP isn't scum because they just killed scum, when they could have easily left an opening to mislynch Mirhawk instead.

[podoboq]

vote: TPP

such bus, much wow.

TPP isn't scum because they just killed scum, when they could have easily left an opening to mislynch Mirhawk instead.

Scum slip! There is no other way you know mir would have been a mislynch. Votes please.

Don't like lynching Mirhawk, because I think TPP makes a solid case, and I was starting to doubt his scuminess.

Mirhawk

- Mirhawk seems pretty genuine to me here, and is reminding me a lot of FS. I also like the basic villager claim, because I'm certain we have some, and he's the first to claim basic, rather than some random power role. So far, the two scum have had weird modifiers. Mirhawk could safely claim that, or anything else that Rob provided as a fake claim, but instead he just says basic. I don't think that's farfetched.

You're an idiot if you believe that's a scumslip rather than "I'm confident that Mirhawk is town."

[podoboq]

vote: TPP

such bus, much wow.

TPP isn't scum because they just killed scum, when they could have easily left an opening to mislynch Mirhawk instead.

Scum slip! There is no other way you know mir would have been a mislynch. Votes please.

Don't like lynching Mirhawk, because I think TPP makes a solid case, and I was starting to doubt his scuminess.

Mirhawk

- Mirhawk seems pretty genuine to me here, and is reminding me a lot of FS. I also like the basic villager claim, because I'm certain we have some, and he's the first to claim basic, rather than some random power role. So far, the two scum have had weird modifiers. Mirhawk could safely claim that, or anything else that Rob provided as a fake claim, but instead he just says basic. I don't think that's farfetched.

You're an idiot if you believe that's a scumslip rather than "I'm confident that Mirhawk is town."

Confidence and surety is the difference between town and scum

"surety - noun - a person who takes responsibility for another's performance of an undertaking, for example their appearing in court or the payment of a debt."

What you're trying to say is that I sound too confident for your liking, and that's not the same thing as a scum slip.

[podoboq]

Surety also describes a state. That is, the state of being sure or certain of something. Certainty of anyone's alignment is a scum tell. Well display of knowledge that town shouldn't have is a scum tell, and such knowledge is usually alignment related, though may occasionally take the form of knowledge of another roles powers.

My Google dictionary app didn't show me that definition, so whoopsie-daisy.

I'll go on record right now saying that I'm certain that Marquis is town. That certainty is based off of what I consider a pretty easy read, and just solid logic. I've mentioned that certainty several times in the past, and nobody's called that a scum-slip, or even a scum-tell. So why is it that when I'm part of the lynch pool, all of a sudden my level of certainty in a player's alignment is considered scummy?

In fact, basically every player in the game has "Definitely town" tiers on their read lists. Is that scummy?

[podoboq]

Pod you just purposefully misrepresented a definition.

Your only defence is flawed semantics?

Come on dram if he flips town we will wagon the hell out of tpp tomorrow

If you read my post, you'd see that it's a ribbing, not a defense*.

You just misrepped my defense, on the other hand....

[podoboq]

You weren't talking about certainty. Why are you failing to remember what you even said? You said mirhawk would have been a mislynch.

Mirhawk would have been a mislynch because Mirhawk is town. I'm pretty damn confident in that.

Let's not call an apple an orange here, you're uncomfortable with my level of confidence, and that's a thing that we could discuss, and you could ask me about, but instead of that, you called it a scum slip, which it obviously isn't. I assume you're a smart enough person to realize it's not a scum slip, and now you have me wondering why instead of engaging in a real dialogue about the thing that was bothering you, you choose to disengage, point a finger, and call me scum.

[podoboq]

What you're trying to say is that I sound too confident for your liking, and that's not the same thing as a scum slip.

This is what I said. I said "confidence isn't the same thing as a scum slip." That's not the same thing as arguing "the word you used is incorrect, therefore you're wrong."

[podoboq]

You weren't talking about certainty. Why are you failing to remember what you even said? You said mirhawk would have been a mislynch.

Mirhawk would have been a mislynch because Mirhawk is town. I'm pretty damn confident in that.

Let's not call an apple an orange here, you're uncomfortable with my level of confidence, and that's a thing that we could discuss, and you could ask me about, but instead of that, you called it a scum slip, which it obviously isn't. I assume you're a smart enough person to realize it's not a scum slip, and now you have me wondering why instead of engaging in a real dialogue about the thing that was bothering you, you choose to disengage, point a finger, and call me scum.

I'm not interested in your back peddling or excuses. Also no it isn't obviously not a scum slip. I, unlike you, don't know everyones alignment. Sorry, you slipped up and now you must die.

This is extra sad because Talah/TO was obv town (reason I'm not voting for you, I'm certain your slot is town based on TO's play), which means you're a townie who just actually believes this.

[podoboq]

Podo, because marquis' blind cop claim obviously makes him town. There's no significance there when your have an example of horrible scum play if he had made falsely made that claim (unless Rob13s mod meta is such that we have cause to believe he doesn't usually have cops. Did anyone ever check that?).

Anyways, I was just pointing out that your definition was wrong. The best argument for shottys thought that you scum slipped is because the nature of the slip is in the usage of mislynch, rather than lynch. It's a very easy mistake to make, but like I said above...such a stance is in line with your previously expressed opinions on Mirhawk, so it's not as meaningful.

It's only an easy mistake if you are scum. Town never assumes a mislynch.

dram is town, and he's assumed a lot of deaths would be mislynches. Actually, give me a few minutes. Let's go ISO.

[podoboq]

I'm kinda bored by the Mirhawk fuckery.
Just mislynch his ass and move on.

its really not pistach

I think it's town upset over the bull shit

Do you really think dram cares enough to be upset?

I laughed.

I mean, I do care that we're mislynching and ignoring the scum.
But the way I see it, maybe after you guys are rid of your Mirhawk boner we can start doing some real work.

By your logic, shotty, dram is also scum.

[podoboq]

dram mentioned the exact same player as a mislynch, except mentioned twice, without logic to back it up, and I haven't seen you discuss this at all, which is weird considering that one of those quote chains INCLUDES you. You didn't think it was a problem when dram was calling Mirhawk's lynch a mislynch, but it's suddenly a problem now?

To clarify, this doesn't make dram scum, for the same reason it doesn't make me scum.


OK, angry responses over. I'm gonna go eat and let you think about your actions, shotty.

[podoboq]

Infact quite quickly his read went from scum to "I know he is town"

Don't know about you, but for me, scum flips tend to heavily influence my reads on people.

[podoboq]

The fact Podo's activity just shot up after a very likely town lynch was diverted into a scum lynch is very concerning to me.

My activity shoots up when people are talking to me, and stagnates when they aren't. I don't usually have much to contribute, but obviously have a lot to contribute when the topic of discussion is me.

So when I'm a part of the lynch pool, which is completely fair, I'd absolutely like to talk.

[podoboq]

But...he replaced TO/talah, who was like the towniest person here.

Agreed. This is basically the only thing making me want to not lynch shotty.

[podoboq]

VOTE: dramonic
Whatever, I liked the Axelrod stuff from dram, but he was like that with me and TO at the beginning anyway, so I guess it's null. This business with TPP is frankly unbelievable, and self voting is deserving of a policy lynch in my book.

[podoboq]

I never actually said anything irt TO, but nice try.
I'm beyond tired of the fuckery in this game. You guys desperately want to lose and I dont feel like fighting it anymore

Jester is bastard, whoever mentioned that.
Dram who are the 3 scum?

axel podo davesaz

Keep forgetting it's dave and not TO. Dave happens to be confirmed town, which is actually worse than scumreading TO.

The point is that my only reason to townread you is your voting record against Axel, which I considered a pretty solid reason. Nobody else is seeing that logic, clearly. On reconsideration, your voting record against Axel could be considered bussing, which I don't have much familiarity with on this scale, and your other two scumreads that early were clearly bullshit. So giving you towncred for your Axel read is kind of not fair of me. You voted yourself, which (assuming you are town) is antitown. If that's an elaborate way to reaction test people, then congratulations for whatever you accomplished. It's scummy in my book, and the way you say that you'll lynch me today, then follow it up by lynching TPP, town then obvtown, is incredibly scummy. So I'll leave my vote there.

Hope your scum.

Sincerely,
podoboq

[podoboq]

I know I'm getting into wine territory but something bugs me about having two death-tunnelers on the same scum team

Who are the two death-tunnelers in this hypothetical situation? Dram and dwlee?

[podoboq]

We're gonna lose the game anyways, this town is entirely composed of people who want to sit on their dick.
Except Dwlee cuz that concept hasn't crossed his mind yet.
But you could AT LEAST do the right thing and vote them.

Could you remind me again who your scumreads are? Cerb, me, and Axel, right? Can you remind me what your case is on any of us? You've had an extra while to make that case since I asked you almost a month ago.

I never called Cerb scum. Considering my ISO is almost entirely one-liners I'm sure you could be half-assed to go through it and find out by yourself. And my case has generally been "I've been reading the game, they're obvscum, you guys are idiots".
How is this news to you?
Podo-Axel-TPP-[dav but theres an inno on him for now] is what I've been saying.

Ah, dav, that's right. He's the one I forgot.

There's still no case. If we're obvscum, I'm sure you could be half-assed enough to make a case on at least one of us.

Just for the record. Dave ended up flipping town, Axel scum, and me? Well, I guess you can just flip me and find out.

Spoiler: Actual spoiler alert. Don't click unless you want to know my role.

I'm town.

[podoboq]

Mostly because it takes time. I've done some; I posted something about podoboq the other day, but I don't think anyone read it.

I'll probably due cakes next.

I read it. I appreciated it. Thanks for doing it. That doesn't really do anything to influence the outcome of the game, but it might help me to be a better player at least.

[podoboq]

VOTE: podoboq
I think my flip podo, vig dram if town plan is the way to go.

Or you could reverse that. Lynch dram, vig me if dram flips town. Could you talk to me about why you're scum reading me, Cakez.

[podoboq]

I know I'm getting into wine territory but something bugs me about having two death-tunnelers on the same scum team

Wine? Where is it?

Do you really think two players would behave so similar and both be scum? It's possible but rubs me the wrong way

I have to admit, I think this is a fair point.

[podoboq]

Thanks for giving me something to respond to Cakez. I have to admit, though, that I don't really see how my interactions with dwlee are scummy. You say they're "not very good," and I assume by that you mean they're scummy, since it's basically the only reason you're giving to scumread me. So I went into my ISO, did a find on "dwlee" and these are some of the posts I found.

Spoiler: posts I made that demonstrate that dwlee and I are not scum partners

Because TPP's claim was cleary bs and I knew it. I made good points about why it was bs and no one listened.

You basically made one point; a misrep about how they implied they were an investigative role (which they didn't), and then said that their knowledge doesn't come from being an investigative role. If I'm misremembering that in some way, let me know, and I'll go look through your ISO and quote all the instances I can find.

Yeah. The only things you said were that they claimed knowledge of PR's(which they did do), implied they were an investigative(which they didn't, as podo said), and they softed an innocent on someone(which they sorta did, but this lose a lot of meaning if you aren't assuming they claimed an investigative). You then put all that together in a blender, and realized none of it added up to a single role you could call them, and decided that meant part of what they were saying had to be untrue, therefore they are scum, without EVER considering that they could actually have just arrived at a number of conclusions through their analysis.

Don't think it really matters though, except I kinda do want to lynch you, but I don't think anybody else does. Like, does anybody else see dwlee as potentially scum here? I really feel like we need to look outside the established "probtown" group and the people that have been getting consistently pushed to the edge of being lynched.

pedit: pip, you really need to explain that read on me. I fucking suck man. And the only game you have with me was SF and UNIMUM(right? you were in unimum right?), where I was, well, a fucking marvel of posting. I was always there, I was on top of the entire game, and I had something to say about EVERYTHING.

I can see wagonning on dwlee here. Let's do it and see what happens. VOTE: dwlee

Because TPP's claim was cleary bs and I knew it. I made good points about why it was bs and no one listened.

You basically made one point; a misrep about how they implied they were an investigative role (which they didn't), and then said that their knowledge doesn't come from being an investigative role. If I'm misremembering that in some way, let me know, and I'll go look through your ISO and quote all the instances I can find.

time to get the iso!!

On it!

post 4329

Apparently dwlee wagon isn't happening. Cerb, I thought you wanted to do that.

VOTE: FS

Happy to lynch (in descending order of happiness):
dramonic (always happy for this)
Mirhawk
FS

Will accept, begrudgingly:
Cerberus
dwlee
TPP (this and dwlee are to resolve the conflict. one of the two needs to die soon, and TPP's mislynch could at least have protown implications in proving their reads as legit town's. I will only accept if the only other option is no lynch)

What was the whole Tracker issue with... Flubber and Dwlee, I think? I lost track of that.

Dwlee counterclaimed Flubber's one-shot and then retracted his counterclaim.

Since you've been here the whole time and clearly not as averse to doing a lot of digging, want to show me Flubber's reaction to that? Please?

I treated him like a dumbass but his inability to make any attempt to sort me from his actions is scummy

That's a good point. Dwlee has completely dropped the ball on actually trying to accomplish something with that counterclaim gambit.

Prod dodge / read list:

Def Town:

Marquis

- Pretty self explanatory. I also happen to have experience with her play, and she's playing basically exactly the same way she did last time we were town together. Not lynching.

dramonic

- I didn't want to have to spell this out, but look at the voting pattern. Dramonic voted Axelrod before it was cool, when Axelrod had absolutely no pressure on him, for basically the entire game. Dramonic is town.

pistachion

- duh

Mala

- Marquis has an innocent on her.

Pretty towny:

Cakez

- A lot of gut. A lot of consistency with how he played as town in our previous game. A lot of him having good reads. A lot of players I trust trusting him. I think Cakez is good.

shotty

- Don't like his opinions on the current game state, but I liked TO/Talah a lot. Would like to have him back.

Flubbernugget

- I don't know why, but I like him. I was ready to lynch Tictac, but I like Flubber's claim, and his contributing today has been worthy of keeping him around, as opposed to some other players in the game.

Pretty scummy:

dwlee

- HEY, HOW ABOUT BUILDING A CASE INSTEAD OF SHOUTING INTO THE VOID, which is basically what I'm doing by trying to speak any amount of reason to you.

itlepip

- Kinda just tired of this slot, to be honest. Beeboy was a whole lot of wifom, death tunneling someone who is now confirmed town. Itlepip protected dramonic for absolutely no reason other than "I think he's town, lol," then backed off of voting me when I was adamant about my read, but didn't actually vote for dramonic, or explain why he stopped voting for me. Like, I was 1v1ing dramonic, itlepip picked a side, then just jumped out of the middle of it when I gave him shit for it. Dramonic and I were town v town, and itlepip probably just realized he should leave me alone and let me fight rather than egg anything on, because it was bringing attention to him. But that's just how I'm reading it. If anyone forgets this exchange, and would like me to find the post number where it starts, I'll go digging.

I don't even know what to think any more:

TPP

- If I wanted to read a book, I would have finished Game of Thrones by now.

Cerberus

- All of his votes in the game have been for Mirhawk, which I find really weird. I don't know how to read this slot basically at all. I intend to ISO it at some point.

I trust Marquis:

Mirhawk

- Mirhawk seems pretty genuine to me here, and is reminding me a lot of FS. I also like the basic villager claim, because I'm certain we have some, and he's the first to claim basic, rather than some random power role. So far, the two scum have had weird modifiers. Mirhawk could safely claim that, or anything else that Rob provided as a fake claim, but instead he just says basic. I don't think that's farfetched.


I'm voting Mirhawk because I trust Marquis to read him better than I would, so I'm basically sheeping. If it were up to me, I'd lynch dwlee or itlepip here, or remove TPP and just call it a day.

Of course, some amount of this could easily be construed as some form of distancing. I'm aware of that. I'm hoping that the volume of these posts, matters for something. If I hadn't been absent from the start of the very fast dwlee wagon, I would have jumped on board. Obviously, there's no way for me to prove that, and I'm just gonna have to accept that I could get lynched here for being inactive during that time, and sacrificing my ability to demonstrate were I stood. As you can see from my ISO, I was happy with lynching either dwlee or TPP, I just didn't think dwlee was happening, and we were running out of time.


I obviously intend to be more active now that I'm on the chopping block, so if you have any questions for me, or anything you'd like me to elaborate on, please ask, so I can respond in kind. Unless you're scum, and you have no interest in giving town the chance to defend themselves.

[podoboq]

VOTE: podoboq
I think my flip podo, vig dram if town plan is the way to go.

Or you could reverse that. Lynch dram, vig me if dram flips town. Could you talk to me about why you're scum reading me, Cakez.

Of course you would, because then at least someone else dies right?

Or I'm town and want to lynch the person who's scummier than me so I don't die at all. Flipping dram so that you don't need to flip me would be A-OK in my book.

[podoboq]

Obviously, there's no way for me to prove that, and I'm just gonna have to accept that I could get lynched here for being inactive during that time, and sacrificing my ability to demonstrate were I stood.

Yes, that is definitely why you're getting voted here

I went out and bought my friend drinks for his 21st on Saturday, and didn't check in on Mafiascum at all that night. So I wasn't in thread between 7:36pm and 12:30am when the seventh vote was placed. If I had been, I would have put my vote on dwlee (there's evidence for that in my ISO.) If I had my vote on dwlee, people wouldn't be scumreading me for my interactions with him (something I'm still not understanding.) As far as I can tell, that's the only legitimate reason people are using to scumread me, so yeah, that definitely is why I'm getting voted here. Because people think I'm dwlee's scum partner, something I could have proven wrong by simply voting him during those five hours in which the wagon went from 0 to 7. And that kinda sucks.

[podoboq]

i think the things you're focusing on in your replies are the kinds of angles scum find it much easier to defend against

I mean, I'm defending against everything people have brought to the table. If my defense is focused on weak points, then maybe the reason to scumread me is focused on weak points.

[podoboq]

i'd be okay with a podo lynch

then again

i'km p sure we're gonna win so

To be honest this is kinda how i feel at the moment.

You could replace replace my name with anyone's in there. I'd like to replace it with somebody who has a chance to flip scum, though, especially since Cakez is pointing at me as the vig target anyway.

[podoboq]

I know I'm getting into wine territory but something bugs me about having two death-tunnelers on the same scum team

I don't understand this, the team is completely random, it's not like scum could have chosen extra deathtunnelers or something.

VOTE: podoboq
I think my flip podo, vig dram if town plan is the way to go.

Opportunistic.

I think it's worse than opportunistic, but I don't know if I want to elaborate yet, because if I'm wrong, I'm just outing a PR.

Just, know I have an opinion on this slot, and I'll make sure to bring it up before I'm lynched.

[podoboq]

Keep forgetting it's dave and not TO. Dave happens to be confirmed town, which is actually worse than scumreading TO.

This is a bad point as it assumes that he knew Dave's alignment at the beginning of the game.

He never went back on scumreading dave. When dave died, he didn't seem to adjust his reads in any measured way. The only person he ever added to his scum reads was TPP, and that's as his other targets dropped like flies (despite never being lynched).

[podoboq]

I dunno I think Dram is exactly the kind of person who would pitch a fit and self vote.

That's fair. He has shown that he's the kind of person to do that. It could also be melodramatic ATE, though.

Also suggesting a policy lynch on someone in this situation halfway through the game is fucking stupid.

I'd rather we lynch him because he's scum. Since a good number of town seem to think we win regardless, it'd be cool if those on the fence put their vote on the person who is volatile and antitown rather than the one who's clearly trying to contribute.

I would also like to point out that "the business" with Piper isn't unbelievable, he thinks Dwlee was busing, which is plausible.

I don't think it's plausible that TPP is busing. TPP doesn't make it to the end game here, and I think they're smart enough to know that. Too many people stubbornly refuse to reassess their scumread on TPP. They're good players. They wouldn't bus their scumbuddy for towncred when they have no way of inevitably surviving it anyway.

The real question is do you think Dwlee is the kind of player that will deathtunnel a scumbuddey for the entire game. It's a gutsy move, but one that can potentially pay off in terms of distancing.

No, I don't. dwlee was deathtunelling town. He demonstrated this by unvoting, when he thought they were going to die, so that he'd get towncred when they flipped town.

[podoboq]

sorry podo but i'm not convinced

You're clearly convinced of something, enough to vote for me, and I'd really like it if you could spell out that logic for me.

Throw me some rope. If I'm town, you give me enough to climb out of this groupthink hole I've been put into. If I'm scum, you give me enough to hang myself. Just do me a favor and make a case on me being scum, so that I can respond, rather than just sit here and wait for all the people who aren't reading the game to lynch me.

[podoboq]

current endgaming stuff

The Pied Piper lynched
SirCakez NKed
Mirhawk lynched
dramonic vig tonight
Marquis
Flubbernugget lynched in f3
Cerberus v666 lynched
Malakittens Nked
itlepip Nked
pistachi0n Nked
drmyshottyizsik
podoboq lynch today

Wtf is this?

A bunch of bullshit. Glad someone else noticed it.

[podoboq]

Shit that was a draft. Also TPP we don't have daytalk so I have to do it here

Also, why on earth would scum shoot you instead of marquis.

I will guarding one of the confirmed every night. So either scum can not shoot confirmed town or I will flip.

The Pied Piper lynched d7
SirCakez NKed n8
Mirhawk lynched d6
dramonic vig tonight d5
Marquis-this is prolly town
Flubbernugget lynched in f3-one I'm least sure about even through decent play at points.
Cerberus v666 lynched 8
Malakittens Nked n7
itlepip Nked n5(basically just the night before mala/pistachion)
pistachi0n Nked n6
drmyshottyizsik-town by TO
podoboq lynch today

So here's the thing. 1 vigi shot because worst case, I probably wouldn't ever assume more than 2 or so. In order for this game to actually be super easy we would need to agree on 6 absolute town

This is making a lot more sense. Thanks for the clarification.

[podoboq]

When I'm scum and under pressure, I feel compelled to prove I'm town, which detracts from actually playing town

I feel compelled to prove I'm town whenever town is voting for me, regardless of my alignment. I think that's true for most players. My win condition, regardless of alignment, is forwarded by me surviving in the game.

I feel like I haven't stopped contributing to town here. My goal is, and always has been, to be completely transparent. When I'm sheeping players, I explain that that's what I'm doing, and why I'm doing it. I make sure to provide read lists frequently, because my opinions on slots naturally evolve throughout the game. When my scumreads do something that is kind of towny, I try to point it out, and vice versa. This is all stuff that could make people think I'm scum, but I don't care that it's seen as scummy, because it's more important to me as town to relay my thoughts as accurately as possible than it is to be perceived as town.

This is stuff I haven't stopped doing today, even though I'm part of the lynch pool. I've just also focused on responding to people who are scumreading me, because I want them to show me the same level of transparency.

[podoboq]

Well I agree you are pretty transparent

This sounds genuine, but I feel like there's some more veiled patronizing going on.

[podoboq]

There it is.

[podoboq]

I think Podo and dram should both claim.

I've been wanting to anyway. Why wait until I'm at L-1.

I'm vanilla townie. Flavor is Pippin from Pippin.

I believed Mirhawk's claim because I trust that if there's rarely just one VT. Usually 0 or 2+, but not one. So I knew there would probably be another.

[podoboq]

I believed Mirhawk's claim because I trust that there's rarely just one VT. Usually 0 or 2+, but not one. So I knew there would probably be another.

p-edit

[podoboq]

Ranger flipped VT...

Wow. I had completely forgotten that. I still trust Mirhawk's claim. I was frankly werided out when I thought it was just him and me.

[podoboq]

Mirhawk - Mirhawk seems pretty genuine to me here, and is reminding me a lot of FS. I also like the basic villager claim, because

I'm certain we have some

, and he's the first to claim basic, rather than some random power role. So far, the two scum have had weird modifiers. Mirhawk could safely claim that, or anything else that Rob provided as a fake claim, but instead he just says basic. I don't think that's farfetched.

This is the crumb. It was dumb of me to have forgotten Ranger at this time, but oops.

[podoboq]

That's not really a crumb. If a game is vanillaless its generally advertised aa such.

@ rest of the game: Is this true. This is my second game on mafiascum, so I honestly don't know.

[podoboq]

I feel no desire to claim

Podo that crumb is way too recent to matter

I guess that's fair. I didn't consider it necessary until Mirhawk claimed vanilla, and I thought he would pick up on it, but I see what you're saying. It's not really proof of anything for the rest of town.

[podoboq]

Oh, I should probably say something: I have knowledge of the existence of flavor which is tied to my own, which, mechanically, gives me cause to believe that that slot would be town.

[podoboq]

Well I was blocked or they just didn't use it 3 of the nights

I doubt that TO just forgot to use it. Consider asking Rob for a list of who your targets were? That's information a player should have, I would think.

[podoboq]

Well I was blocked or they just didn't use it 3 of the nights

I doubt that TO just forgot to use it. Consider asking Rob for a list of who your targets were? That's information a player should have, I would think.

[podoboq]

I got a list of results I'll go back and look when I get to my computer. All I know is mirhawk was the only result RO got that wasn't no result

Yeah, if you have a list of targets to, that should be helpful. Not only can it confirm that your role was blocked (rather than TO forgetting to use the action,) but it could potentially eliminate players from the pool of potential roleblockers.

[podoboq]

We're a limited-shot bulletproof; our shots are passive over active.

A significant portion of wanting to wait on claiming is because I fully expect this claim to get us lynched, and am trying to form a complete readslist before we get lynched.

I'm starting up a spreadsheet with all the claimed information we have. Kind of want to contribute something big before I get lynched. If you've claimed your role, any results, or flavor, could you please respond and make it a bit easier to find? I'm scanning ISOs for anything I missed, but I could easily miss something again.

[podoboq]

...did mirhawk claim any flavor?

If I remember correctly, Urinetown.

[podoboq]

*sigh* okay, 1) did mirhawk claim before shotty chose his targst? 2) did shotty announce mirhawk flavor, before it was claimed?

Shotty

Shotty's slot has yet to out a player's flavor. He invested pistach n1, got no result, and challenged it, if I remember correctly. I think during N2, he checked Mirhawk, and didn't out the flavor. He just confirmed that it was Urinetown after Mirhawk did. Apparently, the slot has had two no results since. I'm gonna go dig and make sure I have that stuff right. Will provide quotes.

[podoboq]

Please provide a short dissertation on your theory there.

Her votes have been opportunistic but more importantly she's done a lot of the "lol I'm so bad at this game" and it doesn't sit well with me.

Okay thanks.

Can you please specify your Miller role. I have a result on you which says you're not a miller.

p-edit: Are you saying that you don't have a result on pistach for n1?

[podoboq]

NEVERMIND, SORRY

Okay. Well this is going to be fun because I'm late for work again so I imagine there's going to be a nice rush of activity. But it was you I was waiting on to say go ahead itle since I assumed you had some part in the results.

I'm Willy Wonka, flavour cop. (Slightly amused at this role given my alt.)

No result N1 investigating pistach, and no result again N2 investigating Axel.

I thought it extremely unlikely that I'd be interfered with N1 so I assumed pistach was lying.

*sigh* have fun.

[podoboq]

Please provide a short dissertation on your theory there.

Her votes have been opportunistic but more importantly she's done a lot of the "lol I'm so bad at this game" and it doesn't sit well with me.

Okay thanks.

Can you please specify your Miller role. I have a result on you which says you're not a miller.

p-edit: Are you saying that you don't have a result on pistach for n1?

N1- No Result
N2- No Result
N3- Mir is urinetown
N4- Beloved Prince

Did you happen to figure out your n2 target?

[podoboq]

I'm guessing axel,

Is that just a guess? Have you checked your role PM to see if the targets were divulged? Sorry I'm prying. I'm just trying to figure out what we know and what we don't.

[podoboq]

Also, Marquis and Mala, have either of you claimed flavor? If not, we just leave the two of you alive, and test the flavor cop on you.

[podoboq]

I'm guessing axel,

Is that just a guess? Have you checked your role PM to see if the targets were divulged? Sorry I'm prying. I'm just trying to figure out what we know and what we don't.

Give me 10 minutes and I'll be back in the office and can check my pm's.

unvote podo

Dram let's go with tpp and vig podo if tpp is town.

VOTE: tpp

1) TPP is town.
2) How does flipping TPP as town make me a good vig target tonight?
3) Where did this come from?
4) Thanks for unvoting me I guess?

5) Oh, also, looking forward to the update when you have more info.

[podoboq]

when I took over I was told this

Night 1: Investigate pistachi0n; no result.
Night 2: Investigate Axelrod; no result.
Night 3: Investigate Marquis; still pending.

I'm sorry my memory is bad sometimes(not often), I did change my investigation to mirhawk

Well it's fortunate that you changed it to Mirhawk, because I think Marquis + Mala is how we prove your role.

[podoboq]

Glad to see you've returned to the side of goodness and reason.

@Shotty: Do you remember why you decided to investigate Mirhawk?

let's vig mir regardless.

I think I'm OK with this for the most part, but there are some things I definitely want to figure out before we set up the vig for the night.

First and foremost: If Dram flips scum, and the game doesn't immediately end, we either have five scum or a serial killer. Which of the two is more likely?

[podoboq]

So the consensus is that town is in a good position--we could potentially break the game by picking off people one by one in the lynches since we have 3 (basically) confirmed town.

I would prefer dram today, will hammer podo if he gets to l-1

This makes sense, but we have a lot of time. If I'm run up to L-1, I'd like a chance to at least contribute some final thoughts before the hammer, please.

[podoboq]

First and foremost: If

Dram

(whoever we lynch) flips scum, and the game doesn't immediately end, we either have five scum or a serial killer. Which of the two is more likely?

I actually really want some feedback on this, if people don't mind. I have very little experience on mafiascum, so I'd just be guessing.

[podoboq]

Glad to see you've returned to the side of goodness and reason.

@Shotty: Do you remember why you decided to investigate Mirhawk?

let's vig mir regardless.

I think I'm OK with this for the most part, but there are some things I definitely want to figure out before we set up the vig for the night.

First and foremost: If Dram flips scum, and the game doesn't immediately end, we either have five scum or a serial killer. Which of the two is more likely?

at that point, for town, it is all the same

Not really. There are subtleties. I can think of a few, but I don't want to delve into it just yet.

[podoboq]

The SK alone would essentially be a final mafia member

Except with completely different player relationships. Associations are different.

Also, other tricks. I'll talk more about it before the end of the day, I promise.

[podoboq]

That reasoning for choosing Mirhawk makes sense, shotty. Thanks.

@podoboq: the only way we have an SK is if we don't have a vig. snarky and axel look like vig shots because of snarky's scummy looking hammer (and the fact that he was unreadable and not doing anything and a wagon on him wouldn't produce much information). Axel was universally scumread. An SK would be more likely to win if they were shooting widely townread people and trying to lynch scum during the day time. So I think there probably is not an SK.

This is kinda what I was thinking, but I can imagine an SK making those kills.

I'll go ahead and spell out what I'm thinking here. SK is a

very

hard role to win the game with. In my experience with it, you have to bluff that you're a vigilante. So if there's an SK, he's blending in. All of his kills look like vig shots, and they're also crumbed ahead of time so that when they claim vig, we will believe the claim.

On n3, Axel's kill could have been to balance the teams a bit more, because keep in mind, the SK is in danger if EITHER team blows out the other. Their plans could have been stymied by town lynching correctly.


This is all speculation, but I think it's worth noting. If we lynch the last scum, I think we need to steal control of the vig's night action. Tell them "Shoot this player (or nobody) or when you claim, we will lynch you." That way, in case that player actually is the SK, they have to just obey town. The person in charge of the final decision could be pistachion, since she's confirmed town.

I know this sounds extreme, but in my experience (in the fast, party game version of mafia), forcing people who are suspects to kind of give up ownership of their night action is sometimes the right play.

[podoboq]

(I'd also like to note that I'm pretty confident who I think the SK/Vig is, and I think they're SK.)
(In case I'm wrong, I'm not going to say who, or call for their lynch right now.)

[podoboq]

I'm heading out for a bit. I play Magic on Fridays, and I'm late already. I promise to respond to stuff by tomorrow afternoon.

[podoboq]

This is all speculation, but I think it's worth noting. If we lynch the last scum, I think we need to steal control of the vig's night action. Tell them "Shoot this player (or nobody) or when you claim, we will lynch you." That way, in case that player actually is the SK, they have to just obey town. The person in charge of the final decision could be pistachion, since she's confirmed town.

This sounds good in theory, but I'm not sure if it'll actually work.

If there's no kill then we're left wondering why the game hasn't ended. I guess we would know at that point that there isn't a SK, but rather a scum. But in all honesty that doesn't buy us much and I don't see them not killing just for that.

If there is a kill then we have no way of knowing who made it. It could have been either the scum OR the SK. We won't know which, and if we do have a SK they could still at that point just claim to be a vig and say they didn't do it.

That's a good point. I'm gonna put some thinking into this and try to come out with a foolproof plan.

[podoboq]

Leashing is bad play. The fact a player is conftown doesn't mean they're right. I fully trust Pist to exclusively aim the vig/sk at town players.

Conftown is more qualified to make the decision than somebody who has a 50/50 shot of being against town. Just because pistachi0n is fallible doesn't mean we shouldn't trust her with vig powers.

[podoboq]

(I'd also like to note that I'm pretty confident who I think the SK/Vig is, and I think they're SK.)
(In case I'm wrong, I'm not going to say who, or call for their lynch right now.)

What makes you think SK as opposed to vig? Should that change our approach?

It's just a specific read on the player I suspect. The person I suspect of being SK/Vig is someone I've started to scumread.

First and foremost: If Dram flips scum, and the game doesn't immediately end, we either have five scum or a serial killer. Which of the two is more likely?

I don't think there's any way to tell. At least not right away.

I'm not asking anyone to claim here, but did I miss a claimed vig or are we just assuming? Because in that case a SK may not be unlikely, again do not claim if you are the vig and already have.

There is no vig claim out there yet.

[podoboq]

Podo you're responding to my accusations with self meta and I have no clue what you're expecting from that.

The post that I think you're responding to is a response to you talking about your self meta.

When I'm scum and under pressure, I feel compelled to prove I'm town, which detracts from actually playing town

Plus, I'm talking more about how I haven't stopped contributing to town.

I feel like I haven't stopped contributing to town here. My goal is, and always has been, to be completely transparent. When I'm sheeping players, I explain that that's what I'm doing, and why I'm doing it. I make sure to provide read lists frequently, because my opinions on slots naturally evolve throughout the game. When my scumreads do something that is kind of towny, I try to point it out, and vice versa. This is all stuff that could make people think I'm scum, but I don't care that it's seen as scummy, because it's more important to me as town to relay my thoughts as accurately as possible than it is to be perceived as town.

This is stuff I haven't stopped doing today, even though I'm part of the lynch pool. I've just also focused on responding to people who are scumreading me, because I want them to show me the same level of transparency.

You were implying that I wasn't playing as town, and instead was trying to prove that I was town, and I pointed out that my gameplay hasn't significantly changed. That's not self meta. That's just how I've acted this game.


I haven't been trying to make a towncase on myself, just as nobody else seems to have made a scumcase on me. I'm just trying to respond to specific concerns people have. Should I go make a case on why I'm town? Nobody seemed to read TPP's towncase on me.

[podoboq]

@podoboq: You are wrong. Conftown is not more qualified to make any decision. We simply know that their decision will be motivated with towns best interests in mind 100% of time, rather than the 75%(not 50%!) of the time a randomly selected slot would be town.

This is semantics. Percentage-wise, I feel like it's 50/50 because they could be either SK or Vig, and I think it's a coinflip which of those two roles we're playing with. My usage of the word "qualified" is probably wrong, but you know what I meant. I'd have conf town own the decision of who to night kill rather than an unknown.

[podoboq]

Leashing is bad play. The fact a player is conftown doesn't mean they're right. I fully trust Pist to exclusively aim the vig/sk at town players.

Conftown is more qualified to make the decision than somebody who has a 50/50 shot of being against town. Just because pistachi0n is fallible doesn't mean we shouldn't trust her with vig powers.

That's easily breakable

We have 12p
We know we have a shooter.

We have him claim and do the following from there:

Case 1
we lynch, go to 11 players, potential 2 shots down to 9.
IF NO DEAD SCUM
we lynch, go to 8 players and have him not shoot, potential 1 shot down to 7
IF NO DEAD SCUM
We lynch him at 7p and go into potential 5p lylo.

Case 2: We hit scum at some point in the case 1 scenario
we lynch him at 5p and go into potential 3p LyLo.

Case 3: We hit 2 scum at some point in the case 1 scenario
we lynch him.


If a shot fails on one night, shooter can shoot an extra time.

If at any point he disobeys we lynch him, potentially letting scum win. That will stop any vig from going gung ho and any SK from trying to be sneaky.


There.

I was thinking of only applying this once we have another dead scum, but that works too. I thought you were against leashing the SK/Vig.

[podoboq]

EDIT: I'm letting the sk/vig shoot who he wants.

Oh, OK, wasn't picking up on that. At least you're willing to respect the legitimate threat that there's an SK. As long as people don't forget to play around that, I'm happy.

[podoboq]

Case 1
we lynch, go to 11 players, potential 2 shots down to 9.
IF NO DEAD SCUM
we lynch, go to 8 players and

have him not shoot

, potential 1 shot down to 7
IF NO DEAD SCUM
We lynch him at 7p and go into potential 5p lylo.

If he chooses to shoot that night, and we don't flip scum, we go to 6, and it's game over.

[podoboq]

So essentially it boils down to:

The vig claims now, and if we're in danger of going to lylo we lynch him. The point being to protect us from any potential SK shenanigans.

Other than that its business as usual.

I don't have a problem with this, but the vig might as it could open them up to a possible mislynch down the road.

That why in order to enact this plan, Vig would have to claim today, on the promise that otherwise, they are lynched the second they claim. Not sure if this is the best course of action yet, but it's a plan.

[podoboq]

If he chooses to shoot that night, and we don't flip scum, we go to 6, and it's game over.

In that case we no lynch.

If that happens its probably a SK, which would mean we wouldn't be in lylo.

HYPOTHETICAL:
We have three town, two scum, one SK

OPTION 1:
no lynch, scum kills one of town, SK kills one of town
go into last day with one town, two mafia, and one SK

OPTION 2:
no lynch, scum kills one of town, SK kills one of scum
go into last day with two town, one mafia, and one SK
if we lynch either, the other wins

OPTION 3:
lynch scum, scum kills one of town, SK kills one of town
go into last day with one town, one mafia, and one SK

OPTION 4:
lynch scum, scum kills one of town, SK kills one of scum
go into last day with two town, NO mafia, and one SK
so we can lynch SK in this situation, but only if SK has no idea who's town, and randomly, accidentally kills mafia

OPTION 5:
lynch SK, scum kills one of town
go into last day with two town, two mafia

I don't see any way plausible way to win in this situation. This is assuming SK works the way I'm familiar with, where they have night immunity, and scum won't target them.

[podoboq]

The point isn't to win as town.
The point is to force the SK into a lose so he DOESN'T disobey.

That's a really good point, actually.

[podoboq]

The point isn't to win as town.
The point is to force the SK into a lose so he DOESN'T disobey.

That's a really good point, actually.

Come to think of it, that's just putting SK in the position of kingmaker, because SK can't possibly win following your plan. He's likely to just give the game to scum.

Also, at six, with three town, you can't get him lynched without mafia's help. Unlikely to matter. Just worthy of mentioning.

[podoboq]

You'll notice the only scenario where the SK wins is Scenario 4, if we don't know who the SK is.
If he claims today he loses every scenario.

Basically by claiming today the shooter guarantees his death, but we guarantee no SK win.

So SK doesn't claim, but vig does. Would like input from the rest of town when they get a chance to read through all of this.

[podoboq]

Dram. We're working together. It's a miracle.

[podoboq]

dram, if TPP ends up being scum, I will write you an official apology, on pretty stationary, and mail it to you.

[podoboq]

It's not the self defense, it's the solicitation of points for him to argue at

The alternative is letting people vote me without any reason other than "Eh, what else are we gonna do?"

[podoboq]

I need to look back over the game. I'm positive there were a number of people who stated things about how the vig shouldn't claim at some point, I just need to identify who changed their mind and find out why.

If any of you were the ones who changed your minds about the subject, please share. ^^

I did. When TPP originally suggested that Cakez was vig, I naysayed it and said that a vig shouldn't counter claim it.

I'm starting to suspect an SK, though, and we're getting down to low enough scum numbers that I think the vig needs to claim.

[podoboq]

Just a reminder to anyone who is considering relying on the vigs shots working: We have a night where they didn't shoot, and cause to suspect 1)ascetics, and/or 2)roleblockers(I'm referring to shotty's lack of results for his investigations). It's not unreasonable for us to assume that scum know exactly who the vig is because they feel like they blocked them on N2.

shotty doesn't have a result on night 2 AND (both, presumably) kills were blocked on night 2.

For the sake of argument, let's assume TO was actually blocked on n2, and there is an SK. The only things that could have stopped the SK's kill (which have been claimed) are bodyguard, or either bulletproof player. TP, you've stated that you are not alerted to whether or not you have been attacked, is that correct? Flubber, what about you? Is your BP passive or active? Do you know if it's been used up?

itlepip, it might be worth telling us who your targets were at night, specifically n2. Whoever your n2 target was is statistically less likely to be scum or SK. They aren't ruled out, obviously.

[podoboq]

If a bodyguard targets the person who is nightkilled, the bodyguard dies instead. itlepip being alive means that he hasn't blocked any nightkills.

Ah, that's different from the BG role I've played with in person.

Since it's only the BPs that could have caused that result, then, TPP, do you think scum or SK would have a reason to target you n2? What about vig?

[podoboq]

How does the bodyguard role work that you've played in person?

They protect a player at night at no cost. They don't die in the place of their target. They just prevent the death.

[podoboq]

This isn't how Bodyguard works here....

Body guards die instead....

So I've gathered.

[podoboq]

Shotty should target either Mala or myself tonight.

Why should the BG target you? We have conf town (and basically confirmed), and you aren't one of them.

[podoboq]

Shotty should target either Mala or myself tonight.

Why should the BG target you? We have conf town (and basically confirmed), and you aren't one of them.

Nevermind. Forget shotty was the rolecop, not the bg.

[podoboq]

Shotty should target either Mala or myself tonight.

Why should the BG target you? We have conf town (and basically confirmed), and you aren't one of them.

Nevermind. Forget shotty was the rolecop, not the bg.

flavorcop*
I need to get some coffee in me, sorry peeps.

[podoboq]

There's basically no chance that TPP and Flubber are BOTH anti-town, right? Flubber and TPP are in a neighborhood together? Is a neighborizer sometimes scum, or are those things mutually exclusive from eachother.

[podoboq]

Hrmmm. I'm still more confident that dram is scum, but I did like our recent back and forth on the SK speculation. Consider me a maybe on flubbernugget. I'll do a little ISO scanning.

[podoboq]

Tictac claimed it in the neighbourhood, not right away but after talking about reads together. He's the protagonist of his musical. A quick search of his and tictac's ISOs says he hasn't claimed it out here yet. His musical contains the letter Q, for those who are still paranoid that the neighbourhood doesn't exist.

I'm going to bed soon.

I believe the neighborhood exists. I think the world in which you're both scum and just lying about the neighborhood basically doesn't exist. That obviously doesn't mean that Flubber is necessarily town, though.

[podoboq]

He's engaging people by soliciting points for him to take down one by one

So he's going wahhh I'm town

That isn't actually what's been happening recently. Like, yeah, when people say that they're scumreading me, I ask them why, but the topic of the town has shifted pretty dramatically away from "podo is scum" and into actually solving the game.

You're either misrepping me here, or you just aren't reading.

[podoboq]

Mirhawk getting another wig thing after FS was dead was something that bothered me while I was cleaning today; I'd like to get that resolved if possible

At this point, I'm so far away from solving that weirdness that I've just resigned myself to assuming it's a fluke. Like, FS accidentally targeted Mirhawk again.

[podoboq]

2662 - podoboq feeling guilty for shooting town snarky
2844 - podoboq defending the decision to shoot snarky
************************************************
4312 - podoboq saying that he knows who the vig is and that it's not cakes made me think he was trying to signal that it was him without outright claiming
5176 - podoboq burden of profficiencying us on crumbhunting the vig in particular and not on any of our other crumbhunting or our reads or anything else really. it stood out.
5181 - podoboq not wanting to reveal who the vig was in spite of pushing for a massclaim earlier and pushing us to reveal our own mixture of PR info and crumbhunting.
5282 - there's an old jeep tell that the person who congratulates the doctor after a no kill is either the doctor himself or is scum. This feels like that except in vig format with podoboq congratulating the vig after shooting axel.

Somewhere in those asterisks, TPP, you say that Cakez is the vig. After that point, I start to crumb that I'm the vig in order to hopefully throw off scum, because I thought you were right, and didn't want him to get night killed. Here's the big one:

I thought they were competent enough players to not blindly dumb information because Dwlee of all people was calling them scum. This makes my life so much more difficult than it has to be. 1 + though, Flubber should probably out his invest result.

Podo you are 100% alone in that. Please never out who the vig is thankyouverymuchthen.

I

think they know what they were doing with that dump.

M

y opinion is that they're smart enough to not reveal information that would make the game worse for town, as town.

V

ig is obviously a powerful role, and

I

have no intention of revealing who it is.

G

ood luck to scum on making more use of that information dump than town can.

It was also around that time that somebody said that scum are usually better at picking up crumbs, and I was also talking about how I was a liability to town that I think scum was keeping around. I was baiting a nightkill on myself, in order to protect a role that actually had power. Marquis and Cakez should be familiar with my play in our Newbie game, where with a lot less subtlety, I implied that I was the jailor as VT in order to bait a nightkill on myself. (I happen to remember that the scum in that game absolutely despised that play, and said in thread that I should never ever do it again. Sorry, Ness.)

I hope that explains some of the later posts. What it comes down to is that if it throws off town, I can always just claim to solve that. If I throw off scum, then I stifle their chances to make a worthwhile kill.