Newbie 1700 - GAME OVER

[cytheflyguy]

Looking back on Tojam's post, I see that a lot of his posts seem to either be on the defensive for one thing or another. Whether that be a town read or a mafia read, I'm not certain.

[Ghostwheel]

Oh I meant my questions. The little quiz thing, it's done. It was just to get people talking at the very beginning of the game.

[cytheflyguy]

Ohhhhhh lol. My procrastination keeps on striking again xD

[Huntress]

@ Ghostwheel:

I'll address the questions in your post 117 later as I don't want that to delay my catching up.


I would caution PRs against following the advice in post 136 by Karnos too closely as some of it may not be the best play in a particular situation.

As this is my first game, I was not really sure which tells are reliable. Here, I used JEEP's common tells. Are they even valid anymore?

Most became invalid as soon as they were published as scum were careful to avoid them so they were more likely to catch town, but some are still helpful, particularly in newbie games. I don't recall any of them relating to not voting though.

BTD to be fair you probably should be voting huntress.

I don't want to get her lynched

but this is in my opinion what an example of what good, productive pressure is as opposed to whatever the hell was going on with thatguy.

If you don't want to get me lynched then please explain why you are voting me and encouraging others to do so. And don't say "pressure". The way you are using it is not pressure; you are just using the term as an excuse to push a wagon without taking responsibility for it.

Re: posts 177 and 178, a note about pressure:
1. Pressure doesn't work when you tell people that you are just doing something to pressure them. That defeats the object of the exercise.
2. Pressure doesn't work on everyone. With some people, like me, you're just wasting your time.
3. Pressure doesn't work when the reason someone isn't posting is unrelated to the game.


More coming in a bit.

[Ghostwheel]

Yeah I mean pressure as in centering the discussion around certain issues, and I don't expect to get as much out of you as I do out of others commenting about you.

I scumread you but I don't have the evidence on you or anyone else to push for a lynch, nor should I. I wanted to make my intent absolutely clear because people have voiced concerns about what votes meant. I wanted a few votes on you, now I have that. I wanted you and others talking, we're getting that. Eventually those on and off a wagon can make a consensus of what to do.

[RadiantCowbells]

cy/Huntress?

[RadiantCowbells]

cy/Huntress?

[cytheflyguy]

cy/Huntress?

What does this mean? Why is it said twice?

[Ghostwheel]

He thinks you're scum with Huntress and probably asked twice to be cheeky/suggestive.

Honestly it's not that bad an idea now that I consider it.

[cytheflyguy]

Me being maf too?

[karnos]

@ Ghostwheel:

I'll address the questions in your post 117 later as I don't want that to delay my catching up.

Re: posts 177 and 178, a note about pressure:
1. Pressure doesn't work when you tell people that you are just doing something to pressure them. That defeats the object of the exercise.
2. Pressure doesn't work on everyone. With some people, like me, you're just wasting your time.
3. Pressure doesn't work when the reason someone isn't posting is unrelated to the game.


More coming in a bit.

I don't agree. I mean, maybe that is true if pressure is uysed wrong. Correctly, you vote to put pressure on a player. If you don't get the results you want, you encourage others to vote. If the pressure isn't enough at L-3, you go to L-2, etc. If at L-1 you still don't get useful results, you lynch the player.

If the player is town they have no reason to hide. If the player is scum, they will have to come out and give an explanation, possibly dropping scum tells. The method does indeed work, although a skilled scum may craft some plausible posts while under pressure.

The key is town must be prepared to actually follow through and lynch if the pressure alone isn't enough. Empty threrats don't woprk, but nobody said a vote to apply pressure has to be an empty threat.

[karnos]

I seem to make typos a lot more often when I can't edit my posts. Bleh.

[karnos]

Might as well illustrate the point, and I've been flip flopping in my mind about how to vote. What it comes down hoppic and huntress, I'm actually pretty damn undecided. But hoppic's posting seems explainable based on him being a newbie. I don't see the same excuse being valid for huntress.

VOTE: Huntress

[karnos]

Yes, this puts huntress at l-1 by my count. Note to others: please don't hastily hammer, unless you are actually scum and want to be lynch tomorrow. Let the town discuss things for a few more days.

[cytheflyguy]

So since Huntress is on L1 at this point, how do we want to carry this out?

How long do we have to wait to use the Hammer Vote, etc?

[karnos]

So since Huntress is on L1 at this point, how do we want to carry this out?

How long do we have to wait to use the Hammer Vote, etc?

Often it is considered in the town's best interest to wait until the last RL day possible. It somewhat also depends on the feelings of the other players, mainly the ones who haven't already voted.

I can tell you it would look really bad if a townie placed the hammer vote in the next 12 hours, if huntress turns over as a town player.

[Ghostwheel]

So since Huntress is on L1 at this point, how do we want to carry this out?

How long do we have to wait to use the Hammer Vote, etc?

Not normally one to pick apart phrasing but I really don't like how this is worded, like he's itchin to lynch. Not only should there absolutely be more discussion before we talk about hammer time, the person who wants to hammer should state intent and ask to claim.

If I see another post like this I will unvote. When he made that earlier post about just lynching anyone and moving the game forward I really should have taken the chance to vote him and tell him ot was to move the game forward. This kind of distancing from accountability doesn't look good. If you hammer, only do it if you actually think she's scum or pay the price.

On a similar vein karnos voting exactly how I want him to somehow makes him looks worse for me but I still think he breaks over the town line and that my vote should be on Huntress right now.

[Ghostwheel]

To explain further what I specifically disliked about karnos's vote he sets up a flip flop between two people and clears one to vote the other. Very much not wanting to get hands dirty. This kind of thing can come from newbtown too because newbtown don't want to be wrong and it's pretty flimsy but it still rubbed me the wrong way.

[BTD6_maker]

As this is my first game, I was not really sure which tells are reliable. Here, I used JEEP's common tells. Are they even valid anymore?

Most became invalid as soon as they were published as scum were careful to avoid them so they were more likely to catch town, but some are still helpful, particularly in newbie games. I don't recall any of them relating to not voting though.

Newbie cops refuse to vote for a person "without evidence".

Also, I consider RC/Huntress more likely than Cytheflyguy/Huntress. Cytheflyguy is now a nullscum read and RC is a moderate/strong scumread. Also, that post about bussing seems like they were actually bussing and trying to cover it up.

[Hoppic]

I'd be okay with a cytheflyguy lynch. He's seemed scummy all along to me.

I don't understand why people are voting for huntress. I'd like her to be more active, it's true, but that's not a scum tell. Has anyone who's voting for her actually articulated a reason for reading her as scum?

I don't see the reason for voting huntress. Of the people playing the quiet game, she at least offered an explanation. #147

So why did you change your mind?

Now I'm not sure which tells are reliable. When I got my copread on Thatguy, I thought I was pretty confident.

Why did you change your mind?

After Ghostwheel dismissed my read as bad logic, I started to realise that my tell was not reliable.

You're so influenced by him. You even voted for huntress after he told you to. Why is that?

[karnos]

So why did you change your mind?

I didn't like her whole spiel about pressure not being effective. If you are pro town, your incentive is to bow to the pressure and explain yourself, not to argue that the technique won't work on you. If you are team good, what do you have to hide?

It was a difficult choice, because L-1 does put her in a precarious position, but I am confident that the other town players understand the danger of quick-hammering and in the potential scenario where huntress is a good villager, a scum quick-hammer would ultimately just get the scum lynched tomorrow, so I don't think we have to worry about that.

[BTD6_maker]

I'd be okay with a cytheflyguy lynch. He's seemed scummy all along to me.

I don't understand why people are voting for huntress. I'd like her to be more active, it's true, but that's not a scum tell. Has anyone who's voting for her actually articulated a reason for reading her as scum?

I don't see the reason for voting huntress. Of the people playing the quiet game, she at least offered an explanation. #147

So why did you change your mind?

Now I'm not sure which tells are reliable. When I got my copread on Thatguy, I thought I was pretty confident.

Why did you change your mind?

After Ghostwheel dismissed my read as bad logic, I started to realise that my tell was not reliable.

You're so influenced by him. You even voted for huntress after he told you to. Why is that?

He's pretty much a semi-SE player. When the IC and one SE are pretty strong scumreads and the other doesn't post much, it's hard to rely on them to answer questions.

Plus he's actually very helpful (unlike many players) and I townread him.

Also, I'm not as influenced as you are implying. I voted for him after he suggested I should, but not entirely because he suggested it. It was clear that RC wasn't getting pressured and Huntress would be, and they're both scumreads of mine. From your tone, I think that you are trying to suggest that his advice was the sole reason. Post hoc does not imply propter hoc.

Also, if someone else (preferably someone who has had experience) had dismissed the coptell as bad logic, it would have had the same effect.

In short, I am influenced by him, but not nearly to the extent that you are suggesting.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think Huntress is scum for a few reasons, ftr.

1) She's not scumhunting.

She's doing a ton of IIOA, doing some IC duty discussing theory, but there's no post I can point to of hers where I get the feeling she's trying to solve the game.

2) Meta read.

Town!Huntress talks very personally, directs things at people, and generally keeps people 'close' emotionally. Scum!Huntress keeps a distance and talks very impersonally and avoids confrontation.
This is so far down Scum!Huntress lane that it's not even funny.

3) She's not engaging with me at all.

I voted her, she said almost nothing to me about it, isn't pushing me in reverse, and is just sort of hoping that she can lurk off the pressure. This is bad in general but this is EXACTLY the advice that she gave to her scumpartner in the last game we played together where she was scum and I was town.

So yeah.

I'm also pretty sure CyTheFlyGuy is her scumpartner, and don't forget about that if I die (and if you're protective and not protecting me you're making a serious mistake.)
He put Huntress as one of his major scumreads but refused to vote, called the wagon odd, and is blatantly setting up for her scumflip (trying to call me out for bussing pre-flip on a wagon he's not even on.)
Rest of the game are variants of townreads. If I'm wrong about one of my townreads it's probably Tojam.

[RadiantCowbells]

Actually I kinda want to vote FlyGuy first.

[Ghostwheel]

Hoppic I have made it abundantly clear that I'm not voting her based on her activity but based on the content of the activity she has. Much lf it is fluff/IC answering questions, and the scum pushes that are there are weak, overly picky on language, misrepresent what scum is going to do and clearly lack proper explanation of motivation. Minor point but she also failed the color test.

RC I think a protective role could reasonably decide to be on me tonight because I've been pretty vocal and helpful and obvtown. I also would much rather get Huntress than cy today. RC's townread gets better here but he also cements himself as the single person most dangerous for me to falsely townread here so I'll be constantly reevaluating.