VARSOON VARIETY HOUR : GAME SCRAPPED

[Reasonably Rational]

It's not an absolute. Scum knowing what town can do strengthens scum, rather than weakening town(subtle difference) but only significantly if they know exactly what the town can do. Scum knowing town have access to unspecified power ALSO strengthens scum, but good play on the part of town can help to mitigate the damage they can do.

In a void, it's best if scum have no idea what town can or can't do.

Why are you quoting a post that I'm pretty sure came from me? :p

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

anyone wanna explain to me like im a little child how sky's alignment is tied to mine?

I don't see that either, but the set of statements OTM made can be applied to any pair of slots in this game and be accurate. It describes all possible relationshipships between two slots in a game with two factions.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Because it did When you were town

Thought so. I was trying to figure out what game had missions, or why I phrased it as missions. I was thinking that was from Shadowrun perhaps, and I was concerned about scum being chosen to be on the team, but would think I'd phrase it as a run, not a mission. Perhaps I was off my flavor game.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yay it was shadowrun! Man, I have a pretty unique voice when I'm writing in this games, to me at least. :p

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Mark, Who are you even talking to? I am asking about a readwall from you. You keep telling me later and then doing other engagements in the thread that feel like making busiwork. I'm not talking case everyone. Just like

Adam. Town, His enagement with Brian on page X was really town.

Oh now you moved the goal posts to everyone? Wow

And the Adam’s engagement with Brian on page X is an associative.

So like I still don’t know what you want?

I think the goal post was always at everyone. Maybe Titus just said she wanted thoughts without associatives, and didn't specify on everyone. *shrug* and I also think she's talking more about stuff like x+y are scum together, not this interaction x had with y makes me think they're town because it appears to be genuine scumhunting.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I also don't think Titus asked you for a case. I did...

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

We are pulling our hair out trying to work with OTM.

They haven't done things that make me, for example, suspect them, but they're definitely not playing in a fashion that makes it likely they'll wield any influence anytime soon.

Titus wants thoughts sans associatives, I want a succinct case on Skybird so I can try to understand what OTM sees.

-Cerb

@Cerb here you said she wanted thoughts on Skybird sans associatives?

Oh, I can see how you'd misunderstand that. She wanted overall thoughts, not thoughts on one specific slot, sans associatives. At least, that was my understanding, and is in line with what she was saying last night....

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

One thing OTM.

I agree with the parts of your post which I specifically questioned Skybird on. Nothing else. Those parts are the parts which I view as being an actual case.

Bronya: Look at the specific points that I asked Skybird about in their case. Tell me if you see the same absence of conviction behind their hunting in those instances that I do, as evidenced by their lack of follow up or consistency.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Notice how here in 243 Skybird doesn't actually follow up. She asks a question then doesn't ask another question to sort the slot or do anything with it. It's more like just noise. This 'inactivity'/'inopinion'/'no stances' will be a common theme.

In post 260 Skybird again asks another inactive question, seemingly trying to encourage people to get into the issues that beeboy and I were having earlier without actually investing anything in there. She feels like one of us is scum but doesn't actually follow it up in any sort of way. It looks like it's more designed to try egg people into the Beeboy/me discussion.
In 323 Skybird sarcastically comments that she has the worst post in

the game, but then doesn't do a damn thing to hunt or otherwise. The closest thing towards a read from Skybird is a guess, but she has shown no interest in exploring it or anything. Between this and the inactivity, I wanted to see Skybird develop the read.

In 364 they finally justify a read and it's for updating a signature line upon request. About the most null of things as one can get. Now while I understand one CAN townread someone for very little (e.g. what I mentioned before) I'd want something else to complement that person's ISO. In other words, the townread of Dunnstral is accompanied with a lot of other things to read the slot. In this case Skybird has nothing.

381 has very little in terms of hunting. Again, Skybird comes out votes blazing. This time Skybird attacks Venmar for wanting powers. However she

doesn't

attack On the Maid for the same thing, despite the prior scumread of Maid. If anything this wouldn't cause them to change votes to Venmar but would strengthen their case on Maid. The switch here reads as very inauthentic.

471 Steps back the ONE authentic read saying it's not really AI but it's gut. In other words, you caught me fabricating a reason for my read so I'm going to say gut.

513 is an attack on Venmar that again she doesn't follow up on.

669 backs out of her read of one of me and Maid being scum saying that we both might be.

689 Then goes back to "Oh yeah there was something bad in that argument" simply based on being asked what her position is on me. Her position on me or any other slot shouldn't end with a vote on Maid Cafe. If she was genuinely pushing Maid she'd be like putting effort in. Right now Skybird is pretty empty.

780 Reasons Reasons Reasons

1059 What's really bad about the post that Skybird cited is that it potentially outs a vig if we have one. This is barely the semblance of a case, then again I know where she stands on literallly NO one else.

1230 Pleads for me to push MC if she's town. If she's town I'd consider it but it's surely not on anything Sky has done.

Find me an opinion on anyone other than MC in her entire ISO that she hasn't backed away from and she still has even backed away from that. IMHO her ISO is worse than Dunnstral's and Dunnstral only has two letters. Now let's contrast this to a town game....

The bolded parts. I agree with you about the rest being NAI/not conclusions I agree with.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

In 323 Skybird sarcastically comments that she has the worst post in the game, but then doesn't do a damn thing to hunt or otherwise. The closest thing towards a read from Skybird is a guess, but she has shown no interest in exploring it or anything. Between this and the inactivity, I wanted to see Skybird develop the read.

^

Ignore that part, it shouldn't have been bolded.

Also ignore the part's where OTM ascribes certain motivations to the actions that make them look scummier. Just focus on the fact that on those occasions, skybird made pushes without following them up, asked questions without doing anything to show us the answers mattered to her, and placed votes preferentially between slots with similar reasons to be voted, without indicating why they preferred one over the other.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'd file away 381 but that's nothing AI yet. Poking and prodding others is a valid tool. The thread moves too fast for much followup.

Mark complaining about lack of follow through just shows hyprocrisy.

It's D1. Everyone is poke and observe.

No. Dismissing a valid point Mark makes simply because they don't do it themselves does not reduce the validity of the point.

I follow up on just about everything. Pretend I made that point, so you can ignore the hypocrisy.

Does your argument simply become that the thread moves too fast to remember what you were interested in the last time you came to the thread?

Does that mean that on D1 everybody gets to just ask questions and get ignored and it's okay that the other person ignored them? Or get answered and then ignore the answer and that's okay too?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

For the record, I can't take a case in that format seriously, and I won't consider either of them.

*shrug*

They made me chuckle, and that's it.

Apparently Kiana likes it though.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

My argument is that there's too much stuff for anyone to follow up on. That's why we vote and wagon as a group. I can't follow up on every logical inconsistency. It's impossible.

Second, everyone has logical inconsistencies. Yes, even me. The logical inconsistencies betray information about role and alignment.

So I am not understanding anything here.

Okay, sure. But shouldn't we expect people to follow up on the things they themselves brought up? I can accept people missing things, but not them noticing something, then inexplicably deciding it's no longer worth noticing.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@mastina: you shall be disappointed, I completely forgot what the "other thing" I was referring to there was, so I don't know if I ever actually revealed it, and I definitely didn't explicitly state it was the "other thing".

The only thing I can think it was was thoughts I was having about Maid Cafes mana request and what that request means, but I don't think that's related to that part of the thread.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, we should be talking about the planes! We're only *not* doing it much because this plane is BORING.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Wait is OTM Mulch?
~Lumia

No.

There's only so many players who are mafiascum regulars, have been gone from playing on mafiascum for the last few (specifically, three) months, and who are frequent players on mafia universe that get nightkilled often there. Also that're rather fond of the theory behind the game. I can think of only one player fitting that criteria, and he's a player I have mislynched. (This is the safest way for me to not narrow his identity down. I'd do so considerably more when stating what happened after said mislynch.)

RR is obv towning tbh, they are asking the right questions and moving the game forwards.

None of which makes them town, it just makes them Reasonably Rational.

Mastina please for the love of all that is townie catch up. I am Mathblade.

I got nk’d after naming like 8 scum in a row over mechanically sound power roles.

Hey, where are you at on Maid Cafe again OTM? I'm pretty sure you and mastina have basically identical reads.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Skybird: Thanks for noticing the link to nothing, I noticed it too and just assumed they screwed up the post number and what they stated actually did happen somewhere(because I'm confident they wouldn't outright lie about the post they included in the analysis). I suppose it's possible that you've forgotten how I play in your long time away, and your lack of notes does explain the lack of followup, but that doesn't make those things stop being suspicious.

Also, what's the objective of your interaction with the case? Earlier you said you were happy being the lynch for today.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Btw I shared this in the PT but I don't think it does harm to bring it out in the open.
I lowkey have a theory that every player in the game has something they think is unique to them that they are attempting to hide, but which in actuality every player in the game has.

If my theory is right, what this is should be fairly self-evident; if my theory is not right, then obviously people won't have a clue what I mean.

This makes sense. I have a thing I imagine everyone else could have.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hey Alisae why is it better that you have no opinion about my slot?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

im just trying to understand your intentions because I still haven't decided how much I trust what you're doing here. but you role's obviously powerful and we aren't lynching it so me voting you is stupid

Why wouldn't we lynch Alisae's role again? I want your reasons for it, other than "it's powerful".

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I think we win if we leave you alive, it took us down a dark, desperate path. :-/

You also win if you kill the mason who was the one most heavily scumreading you, which happens to be the same slot this game, so there's a conflict there.

For the record, the plan was to kill you the night before we entered LYLO, which you'd know if you read our scum/hydra PT's.

The miscalculation was that Grapes, if they didn't have the ability to trigger their removal ability during the day, would just disappear and do it that night. Had he claimed he couldn't do it until the night, we expected to be able to get him lynched as a result of the convenient, previously unmentioned timing limitation.

That forced us into LYLO after performing one less kill in the planned sequence, which left you alive in 3p Lylo, which was *not* the plan.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hey Alisae why is it better that you have no opinion about my slot?

-Cerb

I think reading your hydra is actually quite easy.
If I was around from the beginning of the game, I probably could have your alignment locked in easily.
However because I replaced in, I feel like attempting to get a read on your slot is going to be a lot harder.
So instead of trying to read your ISO, I'm going to either
A. wait until I see something that I can point to and say "OOH OOH! Yeah that's definitely {town/scum}"
or
B. wait till later in the game.


Also, I would like Drixx to say hi :3

Drixx won't even say hi to me. I'd be worried, except he's been disappearing on me a lot more often lately.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

You know, as I read more of what mastina is saying, I'm starting to feel like she isn't actually scumreading our slot, she's just posturing as though she scumreads us because she knows that she always scumreads us, and it would therefore make it harder for her to get things done if she didn't scumread us.

Does that make sense? I'm not even saying I think it's a scum decision, to be clear. I'm saying it's a reasonable decision to make with regards to getting us to work with their slot.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

You know, as I read more of what mastina is saying, I'm starting to feel like she isn't actually scumreading our slot, she's just posturing as though she scumreads us because she knows that she always scumreads us, and it would therefore make it harder for her to get things done if she didn't scumread us.

Does that make sense? I'm not even saying I think it's a scum decision, to be clear. I'm saying it's a reasonable decision to make with regards to getting us to work with their slot.

-Cerb

<Ｏ ｈ, ｖ ｅ ｒ ｙ Ｇ Ｏ Ｏ Ｄ ！！>

Though also to be clear, they should know we <3 Yume and are automatically inclined to work with her as much as possible. So maybe I'm just wrong. Whatever. I need my Drixx so I can say my random stream of consciousness stuff to him before I bring it to the thread so he can tell me if I'm being stupid.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

a big part of how i do this is analyzing the approach of other players to my slot, so when players like Alisae come in and say i'm obvtown i don't know how to handle them. because e knows how terrible and stilted my scumplay ways (even if i'd gotten a bit better since), so it's not strange to see em townreading me. at the same time, this isn't even close to my town meta. i'm not even

attempting

to interact with my scumreads and being flighty and bubbly and emotional isn't really... something i consider difficult to fake.

OOOH! Thanks for reminding me!

A50 said something about the fact that your play being so far outside of your town meta is a good thing, and that's why he likes us, because we always play the same regardless of alignment.

I misspoke in that post. It wasn't that you were out of your town meta, it's that there exists no prior play from you which I can compare this to, because it's so far outside of the way I've seen you play period. It's not that I want to be able to say x is town because of y 100% of the time, it's that it is impossible for me to rationally use this as an argument for you one way or another, cuz it just doesn't make sense.

-Cerb

pedit: Shush OTM, you're ruining my point.

[Reasonably Rational]

a big part of how i do this is analyzing the approach of other players to my slot, so when players like Alisae come in and say i'm obvtown i don't know how to handle them. because e knows how terrible and stilted my scumplay ways (even if i'd gotten a bit better since), so it's not strange to see em townreading me. at the same time, this isn't even close to my town meta. i'm not even

attempting

to interact with my scumreads and being flighty and bubbly and emotional isn't really... something i consider difficult to fake.

OOOH! Thanks for reminding me!

A50 said something about the fact that your play being so far outside of your town meta is a good thing, and that's why he likes us, because we always play the same regardless of alignment.

I misspoke in that post. It wasn't that you were out of your town meta, it's that there exists no prior play from you which I can compare this to, because it's so far outside of the way I've seen you play period. It's not that I want to be able to say x is town because of y 100% of the time, it's that it is impossible for me to rationally use this as an argument for you one way or another, cuz it just doesn't make sense.

-Cerb

pedit: Shush OTM, you're ruining my point.

Why is that a bad thing? Wouldn’t you readjust after being told a logical point?

Are you being sarcastic?

*sigh*

I wanted to see if Micc's argument was about Alisae's slot, or solely about their role, before I brought up the fact that role is not related to alignment in this game. It looked like they were arguing that we shouldn't lynch Alisae not because of their play, but because of their role.

You ruined my ability to get *their* answer about that.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm disappointed in you Varsoon.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, no, that' snot why I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed because Varsoon didn't take the page top.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Creature: can you save your lie detect please? I want to claim something once I get Drixx's approval, and I think it would be best if you were able to check it.

-Cerb

pedit:

Holy shit Mastin.

Seriously?

One fucking sec.

[Reasonably Rational]

"PLANECHASE"

When the game begins, all players assume the role of 'Planeswalkers' on the plane of Dominaria.
However, at the start of each new day, all players will begin in a new plane.
Each plane represents a different world or universe in the multiverse, and will come with its own set of unique rules specific to that plane.

These unique planar rules will often influence player's mana growth, mana use, and spell card effects.
While some of these changes are incredibly drastic and border on what may be considered 'bastard' by some, this is not a bastard game.

DOES THAT MAKE THEM IMPORTANT ENOUGH FOR YOU?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

No, it's shit like that which makes me think she doesn't actually scumread me. I don't think mastin actually uses that shit as a point against my slot if she's legitimately trying to get me lynched at some point.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

i don't want to be towncleared. in fact i was happy to be miller because it meant i couldn't be. it's like drawing a reverse IC.

Unfortunately for you, as town you suck at trying to be untown.

Hrm.... Chara you got anything to do other than talking about being a miller?

You got anything to do other than talk about Chara being a miller? Like...literally anything at all?

Regarding the Taly thing: that's obviously a dumb thing to do, the only reason why it's a consideration is because multiple people suspect them, therefore if the lynch is going to happen eventually, best if at some point prior to it happening they checked Chara.

The thing which makes this stupid tho is that Chara is transparently town and thus using any investigative on Chara and so much as suggesting it is tantamount to a scumclaim. Even rolecopping a miller. Because

we don't need the rolecop to verify that Chara is a miller.

We already know it to be fact because Chara is town and transparently so.

Thus suggesting the rolecop there is blatantly a scumfuck move.

mastina, the bolded is wrong. It's always superior to have mechanical confirmation of a suspect role like miller, than to solely go off of play, IF you have the option to do so.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So, Venmar, why now and not earlier?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So, Venmar, why now and not earlier?

-Cerb

because it's silly now

eh i think im going to change my vote to the guy that has been all voice and... that's it

vote: reasonably rational

BUT CAN I INTEREST YOU
IN MICC?

for 2 anime coins, maybe

Reasonably Rational will never get majority.

I agree with the read but it’s a horrible vote.

You and I will never outspeak Cerb. Unless someone well liked and respected hops on the wagon is done, unfortunately.

Plus I have an ace up my sleeve! Though mastina slot is already on the wagon! But mastina head probably isn't the one that placed the vote. :p

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So, Venmar, why now and not earlier?

-Cerb

because it's silly now

eh i think im going to change my vote to the guy that has been all voice and... that's it

vote: reasonably rational

BUT CAN I INTEREST YOU
IN MICC?

for 2 anime coins, maybe

Reasonably Rational will never get majority.

I agree with the read but it’s a horrible vote.

You and I will never outspeak Cerb. Unless someone well liked and respected hops on the wagon is done, unfortunately.

Plus I have an ace up my sleeve! Though mastina slot is already on the wagon! But mastina head probably isn't the one that placed the vote. :p

-Cerb

You literally can’t. There is no role that provides an ace up the sleeve. It’s why I don’t give a shit about what people claim. There is no deck or rational basis. Roles are not alignment indicative.

Hell you could be a scum with what would be the scum equivalent of an IC and just claim IC. Until and unless a moderator confirms someone as town I don’t give a monkey’s butt what you claim I don’t care about mechanics in terms of alignment. So no you don’t have an ace and if you believe you do save it don’t fucking talk about it now.

\Actually, I think I might be lynchable today, if I didn't speak again. I think total number of players-expressed townreads=lynch threshold right now, but just barely.

And sure, i know I don't have an actual card up my sleeve, but it's fun to act like I do!

Can we do something productive? I feel like nothing productive is really happening. :-/ And yes, I'm part of the problem right now, but I don't really feel like putting the thought into initiating something, but I'm okay with reacting to stuff.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Man, mastina is really on about this whole planes aren't important thing when it was clearly stated that they can be so game altering as to be considered bastard by some.

...

I wonder when she'll get to my post, or go reread the OP, and realize that they *must* be important, if uncontrollable as far as we can tell.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hi Kiana, join us in watching mastina catch up on over 1000 posts.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yes but it's that very same process which would lead me to think that planes aren't important--if V reached a point where he was forced to make up a new plane, that would mean that there couldn't exactly be pre-planned game mechanics for said made up ninth plane, now, could it? As a result, that would mean planes mean little to nothing...

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.

Knox's 8th

The detective must not light on any clues are not instantly produced for the inspection of the reader. Any writer can make a mystery by telling us that at this point the great Picklock Holes suddenly bent down and picked up from the ground an object which he refused to let his friend see. He whispers 'Ha!' and his face grows grave - all that is illegitimate mystery - making. The skill of the detective author consists in being able to produce his clues and flourish them defiantly in our faces: 'There!' he says, 'what do you make of that?' and we make nothing.

Source: http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Knox%27s_Decalogue

@Alisae/Taly, But 8 planes is what is mentioned? Is that not the clue? I don’t understand your point.

Her point is that the absence of evidence that the planes are important(which, by the way, is not actually the case, but it's what mastina is workng with) can not be used as evidence that they aren't important.

-Cerb

pedit: Ah, that works too. Though it's less significant I think, than what I thought you were saying.

[Reasonably Rational]

*Their* point, sorry Alisae.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

My point is that because there are no "hints" refering to a 9th plane
said 9th plane does not exist.

17 players. The game cannot mathematically have 9 days.

Thank towniness.

Barring failed kills.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

My point is that because there are no "hints" refering to a 9th plane
said 9th plane does not exist.

17 players. The game cannot mathematically have 9 days.

Thank towniness.

Barring failed kills.

-Cerb

or consecutive no lynches if town is REALLY dumb enough.

No lynches aren't possible in this game, check the rules yo.

There may be roles that could prevent a lynch from occurring though, but it won't happen through lack of votes being placed.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

My point is that because there are no "hints" refering to a 9th plane
said 9th plane does not exist.

17 players. The game cannot mathematically have 9 days.

Thank towniness.

Barring failed kills.

-Cerb

or consecutive no lynches if town is REALLY dumb enough.

Talk with me about the anime Knox’s 8th is from.

Or some read. Literally anything please?

I don't know what anime Knox's 8th is from.

Also, I'm currently watching Yuri on Ice at the recommendation at one of my favorite people in the whole world, so it's difficult to talk about mafia things simultaneously.

I think you and Bronya should all chillax. 15 other players yo, let's talk about them. 14 if you subtract Skybird, since that's caused much of the problem.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I think Iconeum, Shining and Micc might be scum. Just moonlogic. Thoughts RR?

~Titus

For independent or relational reasons?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I would very much appreciate if no hammer occurred on *anything* for the next 48 hours at least. I would like the chance for my other head to get into the game, and for the thing I mentioned to creature, that he didn't respond to, to happen.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I would very much appreciate if no hammer occurred on *anything* for the next 48 hours at least. I would like the chance for my other head to get into the game, and for the thing I mentioned to creature, that he didn't respond to, to happen.

-Cerb

Purdy sure Snarky is the lie detector bud.

Holy shit you're right.

And nobody even said anything when I was wrong the first time.

@Snarky: Have you lie detected anything yet? If not, there's something I want to claim and have you lie detect, as soon as I get the other heads approval.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Snarky: Have you lie detected anything yet? If not, there's something I want to claim and have you lie detect, as soon as I get the other heads approval.

Actually, I can copy you tomorrow if I'm alive.
I think its more useful to actually Lie Detect Venmar's claim imo.

There are reasons why claim confirmation today is a good thing.

Drixx responded to a text, says he'll be able to talk in about 5 hours.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Snarky: Have you lie detected anything yet? If not, there's something I want to claim and have you lie detect, as soon as I get the other heads approval.

Actually, I can copy you tomorrow if I'm alive.
I think its more useful to actually Lie Detect Venmar's claim imo.

There are reasons why claim confirmation today is a good thing.

Drixx responded to a text, says he'll be able to talk in about 5 hours.

-Cerb

@Venmar nope Drixx hasn’t.

And I was really hoping this wouldn’t become a mechanics show.

Because

reasons

I disagree with claim confirmation.

OTM, every Varsoon game becomes a mechanics show, and only in the case of FFT was that the wrong thing to do(so far).

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Snarky: Have you lie detected anything yet? If not, there's something I want to claim and have you lie detect, as soon as I get the other heads approval.

Actually, I can copy you tomorrow if I'm alive.
I think its more useful to actually Lie Detect Venmar's claim imo.

There are reasons why claim confirmation today is a good thing.

Drixx responded to a text, says he'll be able to talk in about 5 hours.

-Cerb

@Venmar nope Drixx hasn’t.

And I was really hoping this wouldn’t become a mechanics show.

Because

reasons

I disagree with claim confirmation.

OTM, every Varsoon game becomes a mechanics show, and only in the case of FFT was that the wrong thing to do(so far).

-Cerb

Djajajwiejsiakskajwiqba

You realize I was scum in that game and won without a single post because I manipulated the mechanics before posting even begun yeah? I used artwork to get inside everyone’s heads.

Like legit this feels like FFT all over again except I am town and I am trying to find the puppet master.

I feel like you and Titus have one major trait in common: You place a lot more significance on your contribution to the success of your team than is reflective of what actually happened. Not that you weren't an integral part of our win there, but I'm pretty sure your art was the least important part of what you contributed.

@Alisae: Protomen was an anomaly. I'm talking about the Varsoon games in the same vein as this one, with these major public mechanics. A lot of the game becomes focused on how people interact with the mechanics, which is good, and gives us another way to identify scum based on how they interact with something.

-Cerb

pedit:Varsoon made a list of every player in every one of his games in the signup thread for this game, including which games they played in, so you could probably figure it out if you cross referenced the ones who played FFT with the posting style of each slot that didn't claim in the end game.

[Reasonably Rational]

I told Yume I'd do everything in my power to keep her alive! I can't just go voting her willy-nilly.

That's not really how I expect someone who town reads another to disregard what they are saying. The Titus/Kiana question was more an after thought but I was mainly trying to get a feel for Cerb. (And yes I'm calling the slot Cerb until Drixx pops in. Deal.)

i would argue that scum RR pays

more

attention to how they answer questions, not less.

They did pay attention. The reaction was IDGAF. I wasn't saying they're not paying attention. It's that they are blatantly contradicting themselves. And I don't know where Cerb

actually

stands on mechanical issues or his reads. I want that to stop.

Also, you could actually ask me questions directly if you want to know where I stand on something. I think it's pretty clear where I stand on everything, and you're misreading a number of things I've said, either intentionally or due to some sort of bias, but I can certainly clarify stuff if you want to ask.

-Cerb

Do you value mechanics play or regular play?

Do you support the everyone vote for themselves plan?

Who are your top town and scumreads?

Let’s start there.

Define "regular" play. If you want to know how I play(which you should already know, and which should tell you what I value, but I'll gladly reiterate it to everyone): I enjoy mechanically breaking games and doing everything in my power to do the objectively optimal play in all situations, again, mechanically speaking. I attempt to create auto-win situations for myself, as either alignment. As far as reads go, I only value those parts of reads which can be documented, where you can lay out a logical set of reasons why x is why, based on actions taken.

As for RR, the patented Phosphophyllite test is that unless they bring actual read to the main thread, you hang them and you look happy doing it. Not into any PTs alone. Into the main thread. You cannot fail in this way.

- Phosphophyllite

You're still my favorite Yume. <3 I don't actually think I've ever been secretive about a read in a PT and not expressed it in the main thread as well, eventually. There have been times where I've told one party I suspect someone while not acting like I suspect them in the main thread, in order to further a gambit(generally Drixx generated) of some sort, or vice versa, but the truth always comes out afterwards, regardless of alignment. I can appreciate your sentiment though.

^^ Also, I wrote up my response to your post in our hydra PT, but since nobody seems to care about your case or agree with you(so far), I won't bother posting it! <3

i'll actually be the devils advocate here cause im curious in your response. right now you're just smugly dismissing and discrediting the case.

That's because it's easy to dismiss, and OTM didn't ask for my response, only for that of those who TR me.

Anyways, that's 1!

-Cerb

ILU too.

- Phosphophyllite

P.S: If you're scum, please tell your buddies not to kill us. I am still sad that I wasn't able to enjoy SU2 fully.

As am I. I think we win if we leave you alive, it took us down a dark, desperate path. :-/

And I solemnly swear that I will do everything in my power to make sure you live until I have cause to believe you're scum.

-Cerb

I realized I never went through and read all the role possibilities for FFT. Friggin Squires WERE OP!

Actually, all the classes got super cool stuff late.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

If anyone can GIVE mana I would like some mana.

Seconded.

[Reasonably Rational]

If anyone can GIVE mana I would like some mana.

Seconded.

You said we won't die. You broke your promise, promise-breaker.... >.>

- Phosphophyllite

I said I'd do everything in my power to keep you alive as long as there wasn't cause to think you were scum! Until I get Drixx's read on you, I can't be certain there isn't cause!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, nobody should give purple heart mana cuz they already stole someone elses mana, if they needed mana so badly they shoulda planned better!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Yume: Why is mastin posting so much when she's not supposed to be? Have you guys talked about that? She said she was going to let you drive, but has so far been the dominant force in your hydra's presence in thread.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, nobody has said anything about any PT's existing. I'm pretty sure some will exist at some point, maybe not now, but yeah. Your fear of scum brainwashing via PT's has no basis in reality as far as anyone knows.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, nobody has said anything about any PT's existing. I'm pretty sure some will exist at some point, maybe not now, but yeah. Your fear of scum brainwashing via PT's has no basis in reality as far as anyone knows.

-Cerb

We're 90% sure that at least five exist at this time. This isn't a fact, but yeah.....

At least five and I don't have one?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

My partner and I have a color PT. It's a large neighborhood. She has a theory that four more PTs exist for each color.

News to me.

News to me as well.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

If there is one hood for each color, and both PH and myself aren't in hoods, then it means the hood membership isn't everywhere with that color.

More likely there is only a hood or two for colors with communal focuses, namely white and green.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

If there is one hood for each color, and both PH and myself aren't in hoods, then it means the hood membership isn't everywhere with that color.

More likely there is only a hood or two for colors with communal focuses, namely white and green.

-Cerb

What makes you think you and PH share a color?

Nothing, and that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that if there are two examples of people who aren't part of any hood, and there is a hood for each color, it means the hoods for each color do not contain EVERY PERSON who has that color as part of their identity.

Which makes it more likely that there ISN'T a hood for every color(rather than that our two roles are specifically not allowed in the hoods, as in, we both have the same negative attribute compared to everyone else), but there is instead color hoods for White and Green, the colors that are focused on communities.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Taly: I only vote when I'm 1) sure someone is scum, 2) am running a test to see what happens when a counterwagon equals the original wagon, or vice versa, or 3) to ensure a lynch occurs on the last day of the phase. And yes, I still am and am always a hydra, just had trouble finding a time when Drixx was available to talk.

What OTM is saying about the statistical likelihood that scum is in this hood is correct, and I'm disappointed that they have to walk you all through it like this.

I would also like to know where it was explicitly stated that certain people were in this hood. I thought there were hypotheticals, not known members.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also@Taly: mastinas schedule generally has has posting late in the evening, like 10 p.m. PST or later, so you probably won't see her for a good while.

@Titus; we should not end the day until SS has used his lie detect, and I've done what I want to do as well.

Absolutely no rush, nobody is getting discouraged from playing at this point, so why are you trying to rush to end the day?
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

And what if I said that when the mana event occurred I was explicitly mod told that a TOWN neighborizer role existed and is colorless. That is literally my entire mana for the entire day. I cannot generate or receive mana any further this day from this post.

Pedit

What mana event are you talking about?

-Cerb

pedit: There's nothing you can do to help me do what I want, this particular thing is gated by time spent in the phase.

[Reasonably Rational]

@Bronya: Chronological days.

@OTM: How are you related to that event happening?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

K. So, knowing there is a town neighborizer, do you think it likely that neighborizer is connected to this hood that already exists, or do you think they're something completely different?

Also, why were you thinking Bronya was talking hoods? I don't remember them doing so? The only hood talk I had was with my homie random, because we always end up in hoods with one another in Varsoon games, and want to keep that up. So maybe you meant baku, not Bronya?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Spoke with Drixx shortly, he says he'll be 2 or 3 hours out still, apparently.

-Cerb

pedit: And can you direct me to where it was confirmed that beeboy/mastina/random are the members of this hood? Beeboy jumped in when mastina was asked to confirm membership, but tha'ts the only tie to the hood I found from them, and I didn't notice any tie to random.

[Reasonably Rational]

idk what hood yall are talking about btw
~Maki

Oh there’s a colorless neighborizer guaranteed to be town.

Still don’t want to put the fourth member of your hood that you share with Mastina/Yume/Random?

Also.

A colorless neighborizer means you're saying that a card exists, which a town slot currently has in their hand, that can neighborize people.

At least, that's what I take from that statement, because players can't be colorless.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

idk what hood yall are talking about btw
~Maki

Oh there’s a colorless neighborizer guaranteed to be town.

Still don’t want to put the fourth member of your hood that you share with Mastina/Yume/Random?

that...hood doesn't exist
~Maki

I don’t know if the hood exists but I am 100% sure the neighborizer does. Varsoon told me it does.

there is no hood friend.

So then mastina is lying?

TELL ME WHERE MASTINA/YUME SAID THAT CERTAIN PEOPLE WERE IN THE HOOD WITH THEM.

Please.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@OTM: Again, pretty sure that the colorless bit just means that the mechanism by which the hood is created requires no colored mana...

@Purple Heart: No, they're still right that it's SIGNIFICANTLY more likely than not that there is scum in that hood, given that the alignment of those in the hood was functionally randomly selected, and if there is scum in the hood, they already know the membership, which means it's an area where scum likely have an advantage over town in terms of knowledge, which should be mitigated if at all possible by sharing the membership of the hood.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Mark, why did you unvote Dreamerz?

I'm very anti waffles. I like to squish scum into pancakes.

I unvoted Mastina+Yume because I was thinking I could have done a wagon on Random who I thought was in the hood flash wagon without having had to go through all that.

Quite honestly until Mastina+Yume out who is in the hood they are still fine for rope but they are no where near my top scumspecrs and at the time I thought I had scum dead to rights.

Can you please explain how you came to the conclusion that certain people were in the hood?

-Cerb

pedit: I'm sure it's a different thing too, because it seems like it's part of their role to be in a hood, NOT that they were neighborized together.

[Reasonably Rational]

And what about random? Where do they come into play? And none of those posts are beeboy saying they're in the hood.

...

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I think we have no reason to believe scum is in the hood beyond rand and it isnt info that is relevant to the town atm.

~B

We have no reason to believe scum is in the hood beyond rand(omidget)

Okay, i'm pretty damn sure they're just saying that there's no reason to think there are scum in that hood beyond rand(om) alignment distribution.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

PH is making a valid point. I don't think you should go away, but I do think you should interact in real time less for a bit.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Cerb you dont appear to be voting anyone

~B

And I still haven't heard from Drixx, whose agreement I need before doing something like enabling someone else's powers.

-Cerb

Doesn't Drixx normally participate more when in hydras because he tries to do more if someone's relying on him?

Dunno. Sounds like something he(and I) would say, but I haven't followed him in any hydra other than with me, and I tend to participate far more than my partner in any hydra I'm in.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

A Enchantment Spell has been cast!!
Current Spells in play: (Champion of the Parish, Crusade) (Elemental) (Mother of Runes)

Crusade
Enchantment
ENCHANTMENT SPELLS MAY BE CAST DURING ANY PHASE. This spell costs two white mana to cast.
Enchantment spells have public effects and stay in effect until removed from the game. Any time a White Creature votes for a player, an extra vote is added. Finally, I understand. Home isn't where you rest. It's what you fight for.

Interesting. So whoever controls the champion now has 3 votes. And if they play at least one more creature, they'll have 4 votes, or 6 votes if the creature they play can vote.

Tis a lot of votes.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

A Enchantment Spell has been cast!!
Current Spells in play: (Champion of the Parish, Crusade) (Elemental) (Mother of Runes)

Crusade
Enchantment
ENCHANTMENT SPELLS MAY BE CAST DURING ANY PHASE. This spell costs two white mana to cast.
Enchantment spells have public effects and stay in effect until removed from the game. Any time a White Creature votes for a player, an extra vote is added. Finally, I understand. Home isn't where you rest. It's what you fight for.

Interesting. So whoever controls the champion now has 3 votes. And if they play at least one more creature, they'll have 4 votes, or 6 votes if the creature they play can vote.

Tis a lot of votes.

-Cerb

its not a Creature so its only 2 for now but if Micc gives the person who I think controls this a Creature it'll be 3 and it'll get pretty big pretty quickly.

They have their own vote as well, so 2 from the champion, +1 from themselves. And if they play one more creature, the champion will go up to 2 natively, +1 from crusade, plus their own. And if the creature can vote, the creature will add a minimum of 2 more votes, so that would be 6.

On the plus side, this is *probably* a town slot's set of stuff, unless it's difficult for them to gain mana, since otherwise generating 2+votes out of nowhere is a good way to force a lynch on someone as scum.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

They spent 3 mana this phase I doubt they have more.

Irrelevant because both of these cards will still be around tomorrow, as well as one more card will be drawn by them, allowing(worst case) them to play 2 more creatures, if both can vote just once, that slot will be able to solo lynch people(3 from champion, +1 from each of the new creatures, for 5 total, +3 from crusade, up to 8, and their own vote won't even be needed).

JS.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

(though there is the rule that no slot can single handledly cause a lynch, so that wont happen, but if any votes are placed on anyone, they can jump on and finish them off without revealing who they are).

-Cerb

pedit: It's irrelevant in terms of gauging the ability of the slot to control lynches going forward.

[Reasonably Rational]

(though there is the rule that no slot can single handledly cause a lynch, so that wont happen, but if any votes are placed on anyone, they can jump on and finish them off without revealing who they are).

-Cerb

pedit: It's irrelevant in terms of gauging the ability of the slot to control lynches going forward.

Doubt that's their intention unless they are burning through their cards with the fear that their mana could be stolen and/or hand nuked. I feel like if that was their intention they would have played all of their combo pieces at once and then go for the kill.

Which is why I'm saying they're unlikely to be scum, but that doesn't change the fact that they're (probably) soon going to be capable of removing agency from everyone else.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

If it were me I'd be saying the same things. ^^ I'd also be paralyzed with indecision with that much power. :p

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also it's past midnight for Drixx and he isn't responding to my texts. Makes it seem unlikely I'll get to talk to him today, and we're both back to work tomorrow.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

That icon vote is l-2 for Shining, can we please not hammer that before the aforementioned things happen.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, I'm also not particularly impressed with Icons vote on mastina. Do nothing, be 50 pages behind, then show up and jump on the wagon that's at l-3 with very little commentary.

@Taly: I'm almost certain that there is nothing that could happen on D1 that will make me certain someone is scum.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hey Alisae, can you do a better job of explaining SDs scumminess than just claiming they're "open wolfing"?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Taly: I've been chatting with people to force them to firmly state their positions on things and what the reasons are for those positions, so in the future, as flips happen, I can use that information to gauge whether their behaviors confirm them as scum or town to me.

Basically what I do every day 1.

@Venmar: Again, I don't talk about(or even really develop) reads D1. Just not how I play. D1 is a crapshoot, I'd rather lynch using RNG than listen to anyone's reads. Then, once we have an actual flip, logic and reason can come into play.

@OTM: The existence of this hood and the neighborizing effect you're aware of does not guarantee that scum is in the hood/the hood is scum controlled. You keep talking about Varsoon games meaning that roles!=alignment, yet you're pushing that because of your "counterclaim" there's actually guaranteed scum somewhere? Yeah, no, that doesn't work, ESPECIALLY when you should also know Varsoon LOVES hoods, and having a bunch of neighborizers is perfectly reasonable for him, and in no way indicative of alignment.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

On the plus side, this is *probably* a town slot's set of stuff, unless it's difficult for them to gain mana, since otherwise generating 2+votes out of nowhere is a good way to force a lynch on someone as scum.

Where did the "role =/= alignment" and "roles were created before alignment were assigned" go?

Also, I'm starting to get flashbacks of Bloodborne here. Too much hidden powers that can only be countered if we knew the source and the exact extent and details.

A50, don't be obtuse. The roles themselves don't indicate alignment, but the way they're used do. This role was not used in a scummy fashion, and is thus less likely to be scum than if they had just dumped their hand into play at a later date to force a lynch.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

A50 why are you fake claiming you can't vote btw?

~B

He claimed that his vote was stolen, and then it was returned.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hi town. How you doing?

So they're gonna find out when I post my final readslist anyway, but Reasonably Rational is in my scum list already. (I'M SORRY.)

This has many caveats to it--I am giving you my word that unless something of absolute dire consequence comes up or Yume specifically asks me to (if Yume wants to push them, then I will of course help her out <3), I'm not going to actually push that before D3 at the absolute earliest (with even D3 probably being too soon). The scumread is not rock-solid; it is barely above average in strength. It is subject to change and I consider Reasonably Rational to be a self-sorting slot akin to Creature.

They just take much, much, much longer to get to that stage. I know damn good and well not to trust a scumread like this so early on, that it very well can (and probably will) reverse. And while I do expect to die during the night, I don't expect it to be immediately, so I can afford to wait on this. To put it another way--I won't lie and say I townread them, but I will still work with them actively as possible and come to my own conclusions later on. Though the read is technically scum, I am going to treat them as if town and give them that reads pass more or less for about (preferably slightly over) half the game.

(You CAN read them correctly before then...it's just that it's much, much harder and both Drixx and I at the very least don't want the grief of me trying regardless of his alignment. It gets UGLY when I am vocal about scumreading him. I mean it's ugly for me to scumread him REGARDLESS since me being subtle about it doesn't do much to lessen how shitty it is...but however bad scumreading him in the background might be, doing so in the foreground is ten times worse.)

SO WITH THAT SAID.

You can go ahead and trust them...
...But don't trust them to be town fully until they have the resume actually supporting it.

They absolutely don't have that yet. I honestly don't think it's possible for them to have it before D2 because before D2 there's no definitive information to tell you what is and is not town. Only assumptions. And given that Reasonably Rational is just about the most powertown hydra in existence regardless of whether they are town or scum...on D1, assumptions will always point those not more in the know to them being town.

tl;dr version: Please don't be mad at me, Drixx. I'm giving you a LOT of leeway here. A LOT. I just can't afford to give you unlimited sway because Cerb's play has been such where you aren't in the zone where I can. My read is what my read is and right now that read is not a positive one, so I advise others to take caution in having one prematurely.

Starting my catch up posts. They will go on for awhile as I work through my notes and talk to Cerb about stuff.

I did want to respond to this early post by itself though.

@Mastina - I only get annoyed when you scum read me/us without any reasonable reasons to do so. Since you've scum read me/us

literally every single game

, but only were right in SU2 (Civ doesn't count since we were on the same team AND I replaced out to avoid being a lurksack coming off of the last day of SU2, and I don't count SMITE because you never expressed anywhere before your death that you planned to go after my slot and your defense of my slot ultimately helped get me to the win). That's a whole lot of town games where you misread me/us.

Because you have so often misread me/us, with poor reasoning at best, it has gotten to the point where it feels like you actually cannot read me/us and just default to a scum read to cover your ass.

That, and only that, is why I get irritated at you. And if you look at the quote here: you haven't given any reason. You went out of your way to say it was only slight (so that implies you must have a specific reason to emphasize where on the scale the read is). You also set a clock on me/us but made no argument as to why you believe that.

Given that it is in our best interests, regardless of alignment, to obvtown when the time is right ... you can see why having no reasoning whatsoever is frustrating. And obviously there's some wariness from the end of SU2 where I dumped an absurd amount of time into the final day and made a logically airtight case for us being town even though we weren't, and none of that impacted you at all. You as much as said you would rather lose WITH us than TO us. While the best way to look at that is flattering, it's super frustrating from the rhetorical side of the game. The worst part of that was that we literally played that game as if we were town. Every action we took was taken because town!RR would have done that. Under any other circumstance than someone preferring to lose WITH us than TO us, our play that game should have resulted in the win.

So if you don't want to have an uncomfortable time of it, just provide your reasoning and legitimately be open to re-evaluating it.

At the end of the day, both Cerb and I operate from logic and reason far more than anything else, with me being the more emotional of the two of us (although that doesn't say much as I'm pretty detached and introverted by nature with the exception of the rare times when my doctors prescribe steroids for one thing or another).

For the time being, I have WAY more other things to address, so I'm not likely to say much more directly to you unless you provide some reasoning or ask a specific question aimed at me. No sense cultivating trouble.


I WILL say that I'm wary. You are self aware enough to realize you basically HAVE to scum read us. That makes it super difficult to figure you out. The bit about the fact that we always obvtown when we want to, regardless of our alignment, felt a little bit like a way to excuse yourself for having no reason to scum read us. Just some candor for you.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

micc should probably get prodded

decided to iso micc to see what all of the fuss is about. i don't like posts like #1424 and #1465, but i do like posts like #1437, #1469. micc reads more like misunderstood town, his posts feel genuine.

someone might have to hold my hands here but yeah im not interested in voting micc today at all

I mostly agree with this appraisal. Micc's lack of significant contribution bothered me, but he does seem to be making a good faith effort to interact and respond to things directed his way, as well as probing in directions that attract his attention, when he is here.

I may also be a little subject to the implicit AtE in his bit about how he should have known better than to join a game full of people who knew one another well, it makes me want him to feel like he's being listened to.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Ugh, checked Micc's ISO and I disagree he sounds genuine.

You disagree and think he sounds genuine, or you disagree that he sounds genuine?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

You didn't say who you were referring to. Some people think he sounds genuine, some people don't. You should be explicit and clear in what you're stating, rather than making useless posts in response to requests for clarity.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Or perhaps you should just use proper grammar and sentence construction.

Instead of saying "I disagree he sounds genuine.", which isn't actually a proper sentence, you should say

"I disagree - he sounds genuine."
or
"I disagree with the conclusion that he sounds genuine."

Saying "I disagree he sounds genuine." doesn't actually mean anything.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

"i disagree he sounds genuine" is actually a completely valid sentence, that could be optionally constructed as "i disagree that he sounds genuine".
"i disagree, he sounds genuine" has the opposite meaning. assuming there was no elimination of a comma in Creature's original post (entirely possible, the way some players post) it was not technically ambiguous.
:>

Shush. Don't outpedant me! ;P

My point is that it's *clear* what he's saying with the addition of a single additional word, whereas it's *not* clear in the absence of that word.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Can we like not?

Seriously I get yelled at for asking for clarity so let’s NOT have another discussion where people ignore the original points and nitpick to suit their agendas.

We know what Creature is saying please move on.

I didn't know what he was saying, and I still don't know what he's saying, because he won't simply rephrase to make things clear. I can *assume* that he means he disagrees that Micc sounds genuine, but I shouldn't have to make an assumption when instead of making a post about his ability to use commas, he could have said "I don't think Micc sounds genuine."

It's shitty, unconstructive behavior.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'd like you to be engaged, and I'd also like you to speak clearly so I don't have to come back and retread all the points you've made to ensure I understood you correctly.

@Creature: Why isn't Gamma on your list of forgotten people?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

cerb why are you unnecessarily ripping into creature over semantics -_-

i ask because i don't see any intention behind it other than to post "content"

Venmar, I don't need to "pretend" to post content.

I'm ripping into him because of the flippant response he gave to my request for clarification. It annoyed me, and it was a shitty thing to do.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I just realized there is no VC that shows votes on my slot right now, but I'm sure people *have* voted me, it's just nobody has voted me with enough belief that I'm the best choice to lynch, or that the wagon will go anywhere, to actually keep their vote on long enough for it to show up in a VC.

That's pretty entertaining to me.

And no, Venmar, this is not content, just an observation.

-Cerb

pedit: Fair point OTM. I don't believe I've ever seen Creature respond to me asking him a simple question in such a fashion, so yes, it's out of character for him, and could indeed be AI. Do I know in what way it's AI, or am I certain it's AI? No.

[Reasonably Rational]

i think most people understood that 2360 was creature saying that he disagreed with the idea of micc being genuine. the "ughh" telegraphs his tone from a mile away.

why did you feel the need to nitpick his grammar? there's literally no point in doing so. you're causing a commotion for no reason at all and it's distracting, and i don't know how to read it anymore

I did not know for certain which of the two possibilities he meant. I believed he meant he disagreed with the idea of Micc being genuine, but I wasn't certain. Rather than make an assumption about the position he was holding, I asked. His response was bad. I nitpicked his grammar because I felt like it.

I'm not here to make things easy for you to read Venmar, so you not knowing "how to read it anymore" isn't particularly concerning.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I am also well aware that I'm being a bit of an ass here. It's deliberate.

Venmar's attitude in relation to my slot is deserving of a harsh tone.

I still love you all and wish you the best.

<3

Can we talk about something that matters now?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I just realized there is no VC that shows votes on my slot right now, but I'm sure people *have* voted me, it's just nobody has voted me with enough belief that I'm the best choice to lynch, or that the wagon will go anywhere, to actually keep their vote on long enough for it to show up in a VC.

this is debatable

though cerb might be best to be tabled as a lynch prospect until at least day 2 so he can at least try to prove that his play becomes more "protown" after d1.

:thinking emoji:

I'm not here to make things easy for you to read Venmar, so you not knowing "how to read it anymore" isn't particularly concerning.

to be fair i just tend to say shit. im still forming an opinion here regardless

cerb i'd like an update on your read on me

My tone/attitude/presence is never protown.

My actions/the intent behind what I say/do?

More protown than anyone else's, always, regardless of alignment. Mastina had that right about Drixx and I.

You're still irrelevant to me Venmar, because I never went back to read your ISO in it's entirety.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'd like you to be engaged, and I'd also like you to speak clearly so I don't have to come back and retread all the points you've made to ensure I understood you correctly.

@Creature: Why isn't Gamma on your list of forgotten people?

-Cerb

Gamma isn't forgotten, atleast for me.

Got it, so the people you listed were ones that you felt you had to go back and look at more, not people that you felt the thread had forgotten.

K.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I just realized there is no VC that shows votes on my slot right now, but I'm sure people *have* voted me, it's just nobody has voted me with enough belief that I'm the best choice to lynch, or that the wagon will go anywhere, to actually keep their vote on long enough for it to show up in a VC.

this is debatable

though cerb might be best to be tabled as a lynch prospect until at least day 2 so he can at least try to prove that his play becomes more "protown" after d1.

:thinking emoji:

I'm not here to make things easy for you to read Venmar, so you not knowing "how to read it anymore" isn't particularly concerning.

to be fair i just tend to say shit. im still forming an opinion here regardless

cerb i'd like an update on your read on me

My tone/attitude/presence is never protown.

My actions/the intent behind what I say/do?

More protown than anyone else's, always, regardless of alignment. Mastina had that right about Drixx and I.

You're still irrelevant to me Venmar, because I never went back to read your ISO in it's entirety.

-Cerb

I should clarify this: The first sentence should read "...never INTENTIONALLY protown."

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Are you seeing a comma?

didn't mean to be offensive here.

<3

Thanks Creature. I was certainly being a bit over the top in my reaction to that. It just seemed like you were trying to make things difficult for no reason.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

It's true though. I don't see you as having any influence on the game state, and I also don't believe you've stated any reads in a cogent enough fashion for me to care about them. You've asked some good questions and followed up on things and generally seem to be doing your own thing, but I don't actually see substantive thought behind your conclusions.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Talk to me about your mastina scum read, Creature.

Why?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

mastina flowchart.

I did not expect this answer. Can you link me to it? I haven't looked at it in forever.

So you think mastina is too certain and orderly with where she's at and what she's doing right now to be town? Is that taking into account how far back in the day she is in her catchup?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

No, not saying mastina is being certain and orderly. I mean mastina's lacking the mess.

Hmm. I don't really understand then.

and generally seem to be doing your own thing,

i take this as a compliment because it's true

to be fair, i don't really think anyone has much of an influence on the game state, to be completely honest. most people seem to be trying to do their own thing. there isn't much of a direction right now in what we're doing and there's a lot more noise than action and content right now.

^ we should work on fixing that and i think you (cerb) providing more concrete scumreads or actually pushing someone might be a step in the right direction

When I provide concrete scumreads or push someone that person will die(okay, maybe not, but I will certainly try). Unfortunately, as I said, it really doesn't work to do that on D1. Hell, usually I don't even really gather sufficient data until D3+(which is probably part of why mastina said we shouldn't be lynched until then, because at that point everything we're doing should come to fruition and we should have a shortlist of scumspects remaining).

You're right that the thread is noise:signal ratio signal is pretty bad in the thread right now.

-Cerb

pedit: it means what you're saying has no relevance to my read on any part of the game state, including peoples alignments, including your own, because what you've said so far doesn't firmly give me a read on you.

[Reasonably Rational]

I believed he meant he disagreed with the idea of Micc being genuine, but I wasn't certain.

If we're going to turn this thread into "talk about anything but the actual game" then I will say this sentence itself is am oxymoron, because "belief" actually implies confidence, so you should've said "I

thought

he way saying so and so but wasn't certain".

Like, when someone declares their belief in God they're not saying they think He exists but are not certain, but rather that they have faith and are confident God does exist.

Touche.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Look
Here is my stance on this
Are we doing Micc or mastina?
I am okay with either one imo

Look
Here is my stance on this
Are we doing Skybird or RR?
I am okay with either one imo

ILU OTM.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Look
Here is my stance on this
Are we doing Micc or mastina?
I am okay with either one imo

Look
Here is my stance on this
Are we doing Skybird or RR?
I am okay with either one imo

Why is RR there

OTM has scumread me forever Gamma.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

We're not doing mastina or micc. I'm going to keep catching up and will post stuff, but I'm going to tell Cerb to go ahead and reveal something we've been talking about for a few days ... just waiting for Varsoon to answer a question.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

YA KNOW WHAT
FUCK THIS
I'M GONE FOR 1-2 DAYS HOPEFULLY
I WANT THIS DAY TO END
I AM LITERALLY LOSING MY SHIT
HAVE FUN WITH FUCKING TALY.

PLEASE COME BACK ILU AND MISS YOU ALREADY.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

But seriously, as soon as Varsoon is around and answers our question we're going to want people's input on a thing.

So don't go too far away.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Look
Here is my stance on this
Are we doing Micc or mastina?
I am okay with either one imo

Look
Here is my stance on this
Are we doing Skybird or RR?
I am okay with either one imo

ILU OTM.

-Cerb

Love you like a brother from another mother but I think you’re a scumster.

Care to explain why in protomen blitz you had day one reads but not here?
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 8#p9727598

And don’t say you don’t do day one reads again

That was your most recent game.

That was 100% Drixx.

*shrug* I have no recollection of why he was pushing that person.

I could check our PT or our slack for that game?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

We're not doing mastina or micc. I'm going to keep catching up and will post stuff, but I'm going to tell Cerb to go ahead and reveal something we've been talking about for a few days ... just waiting for Varsoon to answer a question.

~D

I WANT THE FUCKING DAY TO END DRIXX I LOVE AND RESPECT YOU BUT I THINK I AM LOSING MY SHIT

Trust us. Also when we get the clarification we asked for, part of what we're going to say will explain why we want the day to go a bit longer.

I'm literally in the most busy 2 weeks of my year (as scheduled so far), so I've kind of not given nearly as much input as usual when Cerb and I hydra. I'm being pretty thorough atm though.

It's

probably

a good idea to let me catch up, just in case no protectives exist to keep us alive. Once we dump what we do and know we're not going to be left around without protection. I literally don't care what other roles are in this game: this is a very near exact duplicate of the most powerful role we've ever seen Varsoon make (at least for the way we game solve).

So yeah ... just a wee bit of patience. You'll understand why. Gotta wait on the modfather™ tho.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

It matters that your hydra had a read and pushed it.

Here you aren’t. It is a stark difference.

Protomen you just claimed shit. Here you don’t.

Another stark difference.

I am asking why you don’t have reads. Not what the reason you had reads that game was.

Somehow you're using all this evidence of actions we took when we were not town, as evidence that we're not town this game, because we're not doing those things.

...



Seriously though, you know I don't generally have reads firmly formed or shared on D1. Drixx has some shit usually, but nothing he's super confident in, and my confidence level in my own thoughts is like 1/10000th of Drixx's, on D1.

Also, after we hear from Varsoon I'll explain why there was a delay in me claiming, other than the fact that it took like 4 RL days for Drixx to get back to me and agree that my claiming idea was a good one.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Look
Here is my stance on this
Are we doing Micc or mastina?
I am okay with either one imo

Look
Here is my stance on this
Are we doing Skybird or RR?
I am okay with either one imo

ILU OTM.

-Cerb

Love you like a brother from another mother but I think you’re a scumster.

Care to explain why in protomen blitz you had day one reads but not here?
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 8#p9727598

And don’t say you don’t do day one reads again

That was your most recent game.

LOL. You found the one game

ever

where one of us gave any kind of reads early, and in that game we were a 3rd party who town could win with if the win happened fast enough or who otherwise won alone, and we played that game specifically to win with town and accomplished that goal. That's not

exactly

good meta to point at that and ask why we're not doing that again ... unless you believe this is another Varsoon game with 3 factions AND believe we're in the faction that isn't explicitly scum.

I mean ... you could make that argument but I'm pretty sure you would be wrong. Just cool your jets until we hear from Varsoon and dump some stuff for consideration.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

In case it wasn't really obvious from the previous post: in Protomen we were partially informed and I (against Cerb's wishes if I recall correctly) ran with a crazy gambit and then somehow made it work. So if you're really evaluating us on a meta basis, you actually have weak evidence that we're not {partially?} informed.

Logic rocks.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

For every 48 hours that pass during the Day phase, we may guess about any non-public aspect of this setup.
We are informed if we are correct in our guess.
All guesses must be declaring that something is extant in the setup.
We may not guess about player-specific information (alignment, role, actions, etc.).
We may not guess about the same aspect of the setup twice in one Day phase.
No effect in the game will interfere with the accuracy of the mod's response to our guesses.

We have made 3 guesses so far.
The first was that there exists a means by which players can gain access to more mana than just that which their role card gives them access to. That guess was correct.
The second was that there exists a Sparkbearer role which investigates as The End in this game. That was incorrect.
The third was that The End has access to factional abilities beyond their kill. That was also correct.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

The above is the thing that SS is welcome to lie detect.

It's also the reason why I was annoyed at Chara. There was no loss of a resource in checking them, but it does mean that we can't ask any other role related questions today because we spent our role related question confirming that they weren't a miller.

The reason why it took so long was because we wanted to make sure the way we were rephrasing parts of our role PM(pretty minimal, just swapping out the word "You" for "We" was acceptablet o Varsoon.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

It's also the reason why we want the day to go on longer, we can just keep asking questions.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, Varsoon screwed up on the miller question, and says he should not have answered it as presented, because it does specifically call out the alignment of a slot. He should have declined to answer, and forced me to rephrase it as "Does a role exist that regardless of their alignment will investigate as The End"

Anyways, the part where you guys get involved is..........what do we ask next??? We have a question waiting to be used!

We have already asked questions about "Scum Factional Abilities", "Roles in the game", and "Mana Generation"

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Cerb and I are divided about Chara. I don't see any town motive to fake claim Miller. There are only two possible outcomes to claiming miller when you aren't a milller:

1.) Any actual miller in the game counterclaims and "best" case (for the fake claimer) is a 1-for-1 trade.
1a.) A town player doing this costs the town two days and uses up two mislynches. Fucking awful.
2.) There is no miller and said person gets to ride out the game assumed to be honest.
2a.) I don't believe the whole "Crusade against millers must be lynched before M/LYLO" explanation.

In short: I think we have scum.

Also ... Varsoon clarified something. His answer is really to the question "Is there any role that has an ability besides its normal alignment that would make it investigate as scum?" -- We're not actually allowed to ask the question the way Cerb wanted to, since the wording Cerb used restricted the question to just town. Varsoon was very specific in the question he actually answered, and I put that in quotation marks ... just for clarity.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Hold on,

Reasonably Rational

, 2455 - is that an ability, because I don't see a post of

Varsoon

saying people can have guesses?

~ Taly

Yes, that is the claim about our role that we wanted to make and have available as something SS could lie detect, so people could then get involved in helping us maximize the information we can gain about the setup.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

"Does there exist a role that can steal someones vote"
I want A50 to retract or for that to be answered.

~B

Can't ask it today, because we already asked a question about roles in the game.

We could do it tomorrow though!

Might be better options in the realm of roles though, but it's a good question if you really don't trust A50 on that, since he never verified it.

Why do you think he would have lied about that?

-Cerb

pedit: we would have, except a lie detector and a role cop already exist, so scum already know they can't get away with fake claims made in public. Unless those slots are both scum, of course.

[Reasonably Rational]

Hold on,

Reasonably Rational

, 2455 - is that an ability, because I don't see a post of

Varsoon

saying people can have guesses?

~ Taly

Yes, that is the claim about our role that we wanted to make and have available as something SS could lie detect, so people could then get involved in helping us maximize the information we can gain about the setup.

-Cerb

Why the claim now, though? To reinforce your read on

Chara

?

~ Taly

Two reasons.

1) We're too widely townread, and we wanted there to be a reason for scum to think we may be protected, to minimize the chance of us getting shot at.

2) To allow us to share the information we have freely with the town.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hold on,

Reasonably Rational

, 2455 - is that an ability, because I don't see a post of

Varsoon

saying people can have guesses?

~ Taly

Yes, that is the claim about our role that we wanted to make and have available as something SS could lie detect, so people could then get involved in helping us maximize the information we can gain about the setup.

-Cerb

Why the claim now, though? To reinforce your read on

Chara

?

~ Taly

Two reasons.

1) We're too widely townread, and we wanted there to be a reason for scum to think we may be protected, to minimize the chance of us getting shot at.

2) To allow us to share the information we have freely with the town.

-Cerb

3) So I didn't need to keep fighting with people about letting the day go long.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Reasonably Rational

Well, that cleared up most questions I had on your playstyle so far in this game.

Is

Chara

your biggest scumread at the moment?

In light of

Alisae

taking a short break, I'm going to reevaluate some reads because I dislike the stagnation of the gamestate. Furthermore; this hydra's current scumreads and pushes have not even messaged in the game, and it's frustrating.

I hate short posts like these, but there's severe weather happening tonight where I live, so my posting size and time will be inconsistent.

~ Taly

I believe Chara is the only scumread any part of this hydra has, however, we're torn on that. I dislike bringing dissonance into play when hydraing, so forgive me if I'd rather not go into further detail on this until Drixx and I come to agreement.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Taly ... willing to do a reads list for me with like 2-3 sentences for each slot? I'd appreciate it.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

@Reasonably Rational

Well, that cleared up most questions I had on your playstyle so far in this game.

Is

Chara

your biggest scumread at the moment?

In light of

Alisae

taking a short break, I'm going to reevaluate some reads because I dislike the stagnation of the gamestate. Furthermore; this hydra's current scumreads and pushes have not even messaged in the game, and it's frustrating.

I hate short posts like these, but there's severe weather happening tonight where I live, so my posting size and time will be inconsistent.

~ Taly

I believe Chara is the only scumread any part of this hydra has, however, we're torn on that. I dislike bringing dissonance into play when hydraing, so forgive me if I'd rather not go into further detail on this until Drixx and I come to agreement.

-Cerb

It kind of now is in Chara's hands. They have to make a reasonable explanation for why town would fake claim miller. Perhaps we overlooked some reason ... but the whole idea of doing it to make some meta-point doesn't convince me.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Anyways, the part where you guys get involved is..........what do we ask next??? We have a question waiting to be used!

We have already asked questions about "Scum Factional Abilities", "Roles in the game", and "Mana Generation"

can you ask about scum involvement with plane selection, or do we already know they're responsible?

This is in my queue of things to ask about. I think I can ask this exactly since it would likely fall under Scum Factional Abilities, but I can guess that the order in which planes are visited was predetermined. If not, then that means something is making choices, or there's some system in play, perhaps based on mana gained/cards played/deaths that happened that determines what plane we go to next.

I was also thinking of doing the same thing for cards, guessing if the order cards are drawn was predetermined.

-Cerb

@OTM: I asked Varsoon this, and he did not give me an explicit answer. I coupled the question with some examples, and he told me what categories the examples would fall under, but did not give me an explicit list of categories.

[Reasonably Rational]

EbWoP: Obviously now that we're outed as a revised version of the "Library Card" from SD2, it should make sense why we don't want the day to just end. Everyone should suggest questions or at the very least agree with already suggested questions so we can make good decisions. I'm not saying we have to let the day run out all the way, but we have the possibility of 7 questions per day phase, so each 48 hours we don't use is one less question we get. (We got to have a question right at the start, so it's at 0h/48h/96h/etc... but not one at the end of the 14th day because Varsoon was awesome and shifted everything up 48 hours so we had one at day start).

Obviously here on day one, it would be absurdly foolish to end the day before 12 days pass and we get 7 questions in and the info out. Hopefully there's a protective and we don't eat the n1 NK, but only an insane scum team would leave our ability in the game so ...


~D

P-edit: I'll have to talk with Cerb about that Chara. I don't agree with your arguments at all, but I'm not going to just be stubborn. I'll think for a bit:

1.) I don't believe a retraction if you had been counterclaimed would have ended any way other than both miller claims being lynched. First you and then the miller before M/Lylo. That's 2 lynches used up from the available pool, no matter how you slice it. That has to be accounted for. We can't just assumed a steamroll victory, and a steamroll win is the only way we don't end up having to worry about running out of mislynches.

2.) You seem awfully certain you won't get lynched despite taking an action that literally has no town utility. You still haven't given reasoning for why you did it. You just said "Nuh uh!" to the consequences I laid out.

3.) Varsoon strongly dislikes alignment cops. He has restricted our ability so it cannot be used to discern alignment (outside of someone playing very badly). There WAS a cop in Protomen, but that was a super unique setup with most of the game being survivors and then two small factions, one of which HAD to win quickly or become the enemy of the survivors. I don't recall any other alignment cop as a role in a Varsoon game, except maybe as a 1-shot ability (like the one we used on Titus in Protomen). Therefore it doesn't really budge the needle when you say that you would investigate as town because ... there's probably not an alignment cop.

4.) Please do feel free to explain why you did it. The only possible reason I saw was you mentioning your crusade against millers being policy lynched.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Honestly his three questions were crap if true.

Paraphrased question 1:
Can anyone gain mana not a part of their role?
A gain of -X is still a gain, in the literal sense
Or if Alisae is scum and the X is factional then already proven.

Paraphrased question 2: is there a Miller?
Chara already rescinded so regardless the odds of another Miller having not claimed are close to nil

Paraphrased question 3: Do scum have factional abilities?
Alignments were after roles so it is 100% necessary for this unless Varsoon handpicked scum. Which since assuming random probably not.

@RR Assume your claim is true:
What categories are there?

I mistakenly believed that each question had to be asked 48 hours after the last one. So, I submitted my first question in pregame, to be asked at the start of D1, my second question shortly after Chara claimed, to be asked as soon as the previous timer expired, and my third was submitted about 5 hours after the 144 hour mark, because I took a nap on Sunday.

I also confirmed with Varsoon(in relation to the miller question) that he was not taking my guesses in the most absolute literal sense, and that even if my phrasing did not match his, he would pay attention to the intent of the guess. I will confirm with him that he(someone who studied creative writing) did not consider the possibility that +(-x) would mean he should always say the answer was correct.

And yes, the third one wasn't necessary at all, but like the Chara one, it was something that I need confirmed, so as to minimize the assumptions made in the game. It also allows for future questions to be asked with more precision, and less uncertainty about the reasons why a guess was deemed incorrect.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Honestly his three questions were crap if true.

Paraphrased question 1:
Can anyone gain mana not a part of their role?
A gain of -X is still a gain, in the literal sense
Or if Alisae is scum and the X is factional then already proven.

Paraphrased question 2: is there a Miller?
Chara already rescinded so regardless the odds of another Miller having not claimed are close to nil

Paraphrased question 3: Do scum have factional abilities?
Alignments were after roles so it is 100% necessary for this unless Varsoon handpicked scum. Which since assuming random probably not.

@RR Assume your claim is true:
What categories are there?

Don't be silly. We made sure that Varsoon wasn't giving us misleading responses. I.E. the argument that losing mana is really just adding a negative is both pedanting and already ruled out. You talked about us like you know us, but you think we would overlook that? Or ... were you just straw manning?

We also asked about the miller

BEFORE

Chara retracted, so you can sit on a cactus and spin trying to peddle that bullshit.

And finally ... this is a fucking VARSOON Game. Either you aren't who I think you are, or you're intentionally pretending you don't know that Varsoon does crazy cool shit and that it's completely unsafe to assume anything, no matter how safe such assumptions would be in any other game.

GTFO with your bullshit fallacious shit. Come back when you can demonstrate some rational thinking.

~D

P-Edit: Cerb ... Varsoon already confirmed it's not adding a negative.

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh right. Drixx is correct. We sought clarification on our first question, because given that the game rules stated that planes will affect mana generation, we wanted to make sure he hadn't accidentally given us an answer to something which is publicly known, and he stated that the rules do not say if the planes will positively or negatively affect mana generation, while our question DID specify that it would be positive, therefore the question was acceptable.

Man.

I'm smarter than I remember being.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hey Chara, why did you think your miller claim would make you be scumread?

It's actually been my experience that miller claims do the exact opposite, barring counterclaims, unless you already have pressure on you.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hey Chara, why did you think your miller claim would make you be scumread?

It's actually been my experience that miller claims do the exact opposite, barring counterclaims, unless you already have pressure on you.

-Cerb

they can do that if they're true. mine was a lie, so i figured it would be revealed as such eventually.

Why did you reveal that it was a lie then? Given that your goal was for it to be revealed, and you to be scumread as a result, why preempt the usage of abilities to confirm that your claim was false? By preempting them, rather than letting town waste them as scum would have done, you negated any possible benefit from your play.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

2a.) that wasn't my explanation for why i did it. i haven't explained why i did it.

where'd you get the impression i did it because of a meta-point, Drixx?

i did it because i wanted to be scumread.

that's the reason. i decided that i wasn't going to be mislynched for it because scum buddy me and i can reliably obvtown to most kinds of players, so it seemed an alright risk to take. it's too bad your role-related question was wasted because of it, but i don't think the tradeoff was that bad.

That's really not a very well thought out reason. That's it ... you just wanted to scum yourself up and didn't think through the potential consequences?

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

(For the record, Chara, I wasn't actually upset with you. As I said, it was annoying, but since we theoretically have a lot of guesses to make, it didn't hurt as much as if I had spent a one shot ability on it or something...and if it had required something like that, we probably wouldn't have done it).

So, the situation as you laid it out is as such:

1) You fake claimed miller in order to be scumread, confident in your ability to keep from being lynched.
2) Upon being scumread, you freaked out, lost the aforementioned confidence, and immediately retracted the claim.

That about sums it up?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Well we will have some time to consider. I think it would be overtly anti-town for someone to end the day before we ask questions so ... I'll talk more with Cerb.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

@OTM:

Varsoon has specified that any situation where, after the resolution of it, someone has more mana than before, will be considered mana gain. Any situation where they have less than before, is considered mana loss. He also told us that he did not make up a list of categories because he didn't want our guesses to be limited by the categories he came up with. Though he could tell us the categories he thought up when making the role up, he's sure we could come up with ones he did not consider.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Chara: Is there any reason why scum!you, upon making a fake miller claim and being placed at risk of exposure, wouldn't behave the exact way you did in this game?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I mean, you've even said you're bad at scum before, and that was a bad idea.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I mean ... you didn't give any of the anticipated responses I expected if you were scum. Not anything that makes me think town but also none of the things I thought of that would reinforce a scum read. As always, you are difficult to read early. Probably need to make the creature rule the Creature and Chara rule ;p

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

@Chara: Is there any reason why scum!you, upon making a fake miller claim and being placed at risk of exposure, wouldn't behave the exact way you did in this game?

-Cerb

there's no reason! that's why i was confused about all of the townreads i got for it.

and in particular beeboy's "this wasn't the scum response i was looking for", which he still needs to elaborate on.

So let's move to the universe where you *do* gain scumreads from that gambit.

What do you do when you have just under half the game gunning for you, and unwilling to trust you? What's the town benefit?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

What? We spent like 2 posts on mechanics, and the rest of the time has been us exploring the Chara situation.

...

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I just feel like this is a big waste of time. I do not see this going well.

VOTE: Unvote

That being said I am unvoting RR.

I do not trust you. Others do.

At this point no one is willing to discuss reads.

This mechanics stuff is stopping hunting.

I wish I could explain how it needs to stop.

Do you believe that SS is scum with us?

Because we pretty explicitly laid out our entire claim and invited him to lie detect it. That by itself should indicate to you that it's a true statement, and our claim is completely accurate. Including the questions we've asked. Though now that I think about it, having the fact that we've asked a question about scum factional abilities in there confirms we're town, doesn't it? So that means Varsoon probably won't actually be willing to lie detect that.

@SS:Before you lie detect that, please confirm with Varsoon that you can. If you can't, I'll gladly make another statement removing that part.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

What? We spent like 2 posts on mechanics, and the rest of the time has been us exploring the Chara situation.

...

-Cerb

Drizzle has spent nearly all of his posts on Chara’s Miller claim which is mechanics.

Chara is town.

Move on. Chara is universally townread and not even close to being considered and if Chara was that would be silly.

...

No.

It's not mechanics.

If they were ACTUALLY a miller it would be mechanics.

They're not.

So it's a PLAY THEY MADE.

It's THEIR BEHAVIOR that we're examining.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

or every 48 hours that pass during the Day phase, we may guess about any non-public aspect of this setup.
We are informed if we are correct in our guess.
All guesses must be declaring that something is extant in the setup.
We may not guess about player-specific information (alignment, role, actions, etc.).
We may not guess about the same aspect of the setup twice in one Day phase.
No effect in the game will interfere with the accuracy of the mod's response to our guesses.

We have made 3 guesses so far.
The first was that there exists a means by which players can gain access to more mana than just that which their role card gives them access to. That guess was correct.
The second was that there exists a Sparkbearer role which investigates as The End in this game. That was incorrect.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

^
Backup lie detect post, because I think my first one was actually AI and wouldn't work.

@Chara: Response noted. Hydra discussion must occur.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

No. I do not.

However as scum you can easily tell the truth to suit a nefarious purpose or be some kind of ascetic or immune to lie detection. Or you can ask inane questions and pretend they came before. An example is with Chara. If Drixx asked the question before Chara rescinded why didn’t he post? Secondly you could have asked that question as scum for the cred.

The only thing a lie detect does if SS is town is confirm the information. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Do you want me to rewrite the lie detection post with the exact time that each question was asked and answered? I can do that.

And we didn't post because every time we catch scum, we wait until the absolute last moment to let everyone else know. We drag it out, and eke every last bit of information from them that we can. If we guilty someone, nobody gets to know we guiltied them until someone else is at L-1 the next day.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

What question did you ask that I didn't answer? If I'm misunderstanding something, please tell me so I can get you the answer to the question you asked.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, I get what you're asking. Drixx didn't ask any of the questions so far. I pinged him to ask if he thought it was an okay use of a question, and he said yes, so I asked.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

RR, is there a way to determine if scum have an accessable double vote d1 without copying another's role? I'd love to sort the multple vote player without outing them. If we can prove they are town, then we can force scum to attack the cards and have an effective IC for later.

We can't ask something that indicates alignment. So ... it was okay to guess about a miller (with the exact phrasing I put in quotation marks earlier), but guessing that scum have a double voter would be a little too specific. I think we

might

get away with guessing that the scum team has access to abilities which impact voting, but even that might be too close to an alignment check. Will play around with wording with Cerb and see if we can wrangle it into an acceptable question, but since it's role related, I'm not sure we can ask it today (unless we can successfully argue that the question is actually about vote mechanics ...).

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

See I think I finally realized why I am having a hard time with RR read on the drive home.

I feel like to excuse the analogy RR is kinda like an infomercial. Like he’s saying things in order for me to buy into him being town.

Like here have a lie detect check. So? He could have known that was in the game before hand. Furthermore even if that stemmed is the truth it doesn’t make it not premeditated on his part.

Like for a buy it now ad on TV. They have testimonials and show the product off. Like “look at all these customers satisfied by the Snuggie. It can’t be wrong.” That’s what I feel RR is doing. I just don’t know how to explain a feeling.

You basically think we're doing what we did in SU2 with our claim. That's understandable.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

What did I call a smoking gun??

Titus, clever question suggestions?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh! And to everyone suggesting finding out if scum have something or not, that's not possible, unless it's via a scum factional. I can check if x exists in the game, unrelated to alignment....so I can't use the qualifier of "do scum have"

I have to ask if it exists period within roles/cards.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Ah yeah. Honestly, this wasn't even the thing I was talking about.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Serious question: is everyone having fun?

If you're not having fun, let's talk about it and figure out how to make this fun. I think Micc left because he wasn't having fun, and that sucks.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

See I think I finally realized why I am having a hard time with RR read on the drive home.

I feel like to excuse the analogy RR is kinda like an infomercial. Like he’s saying things in order for me to buy into him being town.

Like here have a lie detect check. So? He could have known that was in the game before hand. Furthermore even if that stemmed is the truth it doesn’t make it not premeditated on his part.

Like for a buy it now ad on TV. They have testimonials and show the product off. Like “look at all these customers satisfied by the Snuggie. It can’t be wrong.” That’s what I feel RR is doing. I just don’t know how to explain a feeling.

I realize others already explained this, but I laughed so hard at this. Literally everything we do, no matter what we are, is logical and planned. We will sit on stuff for weeks real time before putting something in motion. You likely aren't who I think or else you would know that and wouldn't be getting a "used car salesman" vibe. We're not trying to sell you a shamwow: I promise.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Serious question: is everyone having fun?

If you're not having fun, let's talk about it and figure out how to make this fun. I think Micc left because he wasn't having fun, and that sucks.
-Cerb

I am having so much fun. This is the most exciting game I have ever played on this site, thanks to Varsoon and Titus.

However, Day 1 is getting boring. But this is not Varsoon's fault, it is RR's fault for extending the day and increasing the scale of town apathy.

~Kiana

So, interestingly, I think the best thing we can do for long term success is to have a super long D1 with lots of content from everyone, without people becoming apathetic. That leads to maximum information for making late game decisions.

So, perhaps what should be happening is the people who are talking too much should all stop talking about their agendas, and turn their attention to, say, the bottom 1/3rd of the playerlist, and figure out what content we want them to provide.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So.

In Protomen when Drixx and I had access to a vote steal(technically, it was a vote negation, not steal, we didn't gain anything, they just couldn't vote) we went with the A50/Chara hydra because it was a compromise between interfering with a good player, and not choosing someone that would directly point back to us or our teammate.

If it was done by scum, I would assume that that individual has some connection to A50, but A50 isn't someone they have loads of history with(compared to others in the playerlist at least).

As far as them faking it, it's possible, sure. I don't see much benefit to faking it as either alignment. It is a silly thing that doesn't get them any real towncred, since they didn't prove it, and legitimately made them more suspicious for that same reason. :-/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I think A50’s is the better of the two.

Cerb is almost telling the truth as either alignment.

However if Almost was lying, the heat mapping and dynamics off that are huge.

*nods* You're probably right. I can't wait until the day I have the cajones to lie in the face of a lie detector because I've developed a reputation such that people won't bother wasting lie detect attempts on statements I make.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I've actually agreed with you a lot OTM.

Except for where I haven't.



-Cerb

pedit: Fair enough. It's definitely within A50's range.

[Reasonably Rational]

I also believe that the person who stole A50's vote, if that happened, did it for mana, or that A50 himself did it for mana(thus the retraction, and no action to prove it).

I have no reason to believe that, but it feels right.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Not A50 did the vote steal, but if he made a false claim about an action taken on him.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Plus, there's like no chance I lied about my role because there PH could just steal my role tomorrow.

Speaking of which, that's why I was considering having you steal our role PH. Coulda got a bunch more questions done today, just in case I died tonight, and it's possible that since you're not the same slot as me, we could have doubled up on categories of questions.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

that seems like a nice way to get mana too what is it, 1 mana per question?

Our questions have no relation to our mana generation. ^^ That's a whole different fun little game.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Let's talk about Icon? Maybe not right now, I have to go to sleep, but I don't object to them as a possibility, or at least getting more content from them.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm honestly a bit of a mess right now; I feel like shit, work is utterly exhausting (because I'm working two jobs, my hours are exceeding 40/week and thus I'm working more than full time; I get up at 6 am and yet I often get home at like 8 pm having 14-hour days) to the point where I was struggling not to fall asleep behind the wheel today and even nearly had an accident (admittedly I don't think it was something not being tired woulda helped with, was trying to merge over and in spite of me looking over my shoulder somehow missed the car which was there until the horn rather rudely gave me a harsh awakening to the situation) today, so.

Oh. And also I am just. Mentally scattered. I had trouble focusing at work today, I had trouble doing anything, and honestly the absolute last thing I want to be doing right now is mafia. I just want to spend time doing games of some sort. Or maybe catch up on blogging since I still have three different rambles to ramble on. But the thing is. While I want to do those things and absolutely don't want to do mafia things. If I don't do the mafia stuff now, I know I never will, so.

I'm here, for about an hour and a half. Reminder I'm on page 46; will catch up as much as I can in that time. I'll try to keep anything I can to the PT, but no promises.

Is this the mess you were looking for Creature?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, mastina: Take care of yourself. <3

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

A50 that's a bad lie detect for so many reasons.... Like it's a silly thing to lie about and doesn't mean a lot to me.....

Has anything been said that's a good lie detect to you? Consider that the day would have easily ended before you were even around to lie detect had I not requested that things be extended/pushed for the SD lynch.

-Cerb

pedit: hai nancy!

[Reasonably Rational]

Iconeum, could you please explain why you didn't feel it was necessary to support your read on OTM the way you did your other reads?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

OK;

@Snarkysnowman: Please lie detect the following..

I was mod notified my vote got stolen from me, and was mod notified it was returned mire than 24 hours later

@Ali: I'll keep my mouth shut but you should be ashamed by both thinking I'm making this up and hurting my pride in 2560

@RR: I made a mistake, the PM for the vote return was actually received just over 41 hours (not 29 as I stated before). I just didn't notice the latter had the time stamp in the pm not the am, so that's where 12 hours difference come from.

Also, shame on you too for thinking I would do this in a Varsoon game as either alignment, and even more for thinking I would suggest it was done to implicate you if I was indeed lying about it in the first place!

@OTM: THANK YOU for choosing to believe me. Now we wait for SS confirmation (or maybe RR can ask if there's a role that can steal votes tomorrow, or maybe even the vote stealer -if town- can do it to someone else .. although this might have been a spell and the card may have been discarded already)

I don't think you did it to implicate me? Where did that come from? I was merely expressing the viewpoint of someone who has recently chosen to keep you from voting on D1 in a game.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

RR, ask if a player needs steal/manipulate players votes to gain mana.

Good thought. Mana generation category, so I can ask about it tomorrow. :-/

I don't know if I explicitly stated this, but after my guesses, Varsoon said they were(respectively) Mana generation, roles in the game, and scum factional abilities.

I also asked him if I could ask about third parties without that counting as part of the roles in the game, and he said I could...however, from the way our win condition is worded, there's no reason to believe a third party exists, unless that third parties abilities explicitly state that town can not win while they're alive. That would be a good way to avoid the problem Varsoon ran into in other games, where the win conditions revealed the likelihood of third parties existing.

Anyways, might be something I'll ask about. idk.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Kiana: That is mastina's normal posting style. She's very long winded and a bit rambly. I think she should really just take a break from the game on days when she's so busy. :-/ Let her other head take the reins, but *shrug*.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

*sniff*

Guilty as charged on the googling but I do actually learn about IIS stuff every week so it was a fun find.

And lol I haven’t been in college in a looooong time. I highly doubt I could bot anything smart enough. Mafia is too complex. I am much better at fooling algorithms than making them. Could program a heat map but I think at some point it’s not Mafia anymore if I do. Some people have tried but their bots don’t catch me yet. When their bots do I might consider it.

Now I believe you were going to answer my question about Snarky?

Pedit: why not just ask if third parties exist? It isn’t alignment indicative and it just asks about existence.

What gave you the impression that I wasn't going to ask that? The possibility of asking that is exactly what I was referring to in that post...I was just stating that I feel it's decently unlikely that third parties exist in this game that anti-town, unless they have an ability explicitly preventing town from winning once we've removed all of The End faction.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

The fact you thought the answer would be no, seems to imply that you don’t want to ask or feel it’s a wasted question.

Considering it would likely be in it's own category, that is, one pertaining to third parties, it's not a wasted question. It does mean that we'd be waiting even longer for more questions to be available to me.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Snarky said it’s once per day any non alignment statement.

So A50’s qualifies as a good one as it helps town? (Still waffling on Alisae) cohesion and helps to establish whether vote thief is a secret role or not.

No I don't think it's a good use of the lie detect but it appears to be the best option we have today(?) to prevent wastage(?)

If RR's question regarding Vote Thief being needed for mana gain returns true, then the A50 turns to a useless question. Why would someone steal a vote from A50? Because A50 was absent and would be unlikely to use his vote meaningfully, or even notice the vote removal (though Varsoon probably issues a PM alert). Maybe the thief had something to gain from removing A50's vote, such as mana or an extra vote. RR's role can figure this out. We don't need to blow a 1-shot-per-day Lie Detect on that.

So I agree with Snarky that it is actually pretty bad use. I don't know if we can find a better one but if we can, we should.

~Kiana

I believe unless RR’s mana question for gain is flagged perfectly it will likely hit me. I would rather lie detect A50 to be safe.

1) I can do perfect questions.
2) Generating mana by stealing or manipulating someone else's vote sounds a lot easier than you've said your mana generation is.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I don't actually understand how the statement(remember, they have to be guesses) "I guess there exists a role which gains mana by stealing or negating another slots vote." could accidentally be triggered by an ability that is not mana gained by those means.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Trying asking if there are roles that can give mana to other players. Sounds easy enough.

How about giving cards? That sounds fun too.

What about hand nukes. Are they available in the game?

Your role since it doesn't apply to alignments is only a rather buffed Rolecop ability.

~Kiana

Don't limit your thinking only to us asking questions related to things people say. We can guess literally anything we want about the setup, and be told if that guess is correct or incorrect. Given that Varsoon games are intricate little Rube Goldberg machines ... being able to figure out the setup can be a huge help. At least ... that has been the case in the past.

btw if anyone cares about how I differ from

(I have regrets btw)

Um tbh I don't believe A50 had his vote stolen in the first place.
Like
out of all of the players in the player list

A50

gets his vote stolen.
(I don't think he has ever PROVED he got his vote stolen)
And then he magically gets it back.

Like
take a moment
to let it marinate in your head
that A50, NOT RR, NOT BEEBOY, NOT CHARA, NOT CREATURE
BUT A50
got his vote stolen.

Icon is also probs scum btw
(atleast 1 scum in mastina/icon)

Everytime I tell Taly Creature meta he yesmans me.
Venmar can be town.

Cerb already answered in a similar fashion to what I would have. See his post about our chosen usage of vote nullify in a prior game.

So let’s find the shortest path between me and some rose tinted glasses. Find me some damn good glasses for RR mine be broken.

I'm gonna give you the same challenge I always give people. Put your ego on the line. You are having your cake and eating too. You "accidentally" forgot to strike us out of your list of who can and cannot be lynched today. You claim you don't intend to push us today but continually make "jokes" and other comments to keep it fresh in everyone's mind that you believe we're scum. Put your proverbial money where your mouth is.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

You’re both confusing the cause and results.

A person can gain things without being the cause of the action in question.

For example if someone gains mana when Varsoon posts a VC. They aren’t the CAUSE.

In other words I guess there is a role that gains mana when
Is different than I guess there is a role that gains mana by

Really? The difference between "by" and "when" was the "perfect phrasing" needed?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hello people I am finally not that busy, what have I lost cause the chances of me reading alll these pages are <1%

Alternativly tell me who to ISO to get the best grip.

~Shiro

omg hi shiro! I'm so happy to see you around finally! I hope everything is going well!

Eh.

Maid Cafe/Alisae/PH+some combination of myself/OTM/Bronya would probably give you an idea of the what's been going on? I think between Maid Cafe and Alisae/PH you'll get an idea of all the stuff we've been talking about, at the least.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, Chara too! Reading Maid Cafe+Chara together will give you a good overview I think. I'd suggest adding Alisae in there too, but Alisae turne dinto a hydra with PH, and you can only read three people in ISO together.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

You could also get the other head of your hydra to summarize for you, because that really seems like the most reasonable thing.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So, I was thinking.

I'm almost certain that color PT is for people who are W and W/X(short version being because Micc/Nancy Drew was not named as being part of that PT, and when Alisae/PH gave an elemental to someone, it was green aligned, meaning that of the two most likely color PT options, Green and White, White is the only reasonable option).

Which means that the Champion/Crusade are controlled by either Skybird or Icon.

Is it more likely that Skybird deliberately split her vote from her creature, or that Icon is piling as much pressure as he can on SD?

Do note this is all speculation.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Serious question: is everyone having fun?

If you're not having fun, let's talk about it and figure out how to make this fun. I think Micc left because he wasn't having fun, and that sucks.
-Cerb

I'm having fun.
That said, large games can be a huge undertaking and this one already has 100+ pages, so just keeping up with all of it on top of the mechanics I tend to put into a game can be overwhelming.
I want you all to know that I appreciate your dedication to the game. I know staying up to date with a game like this one can be difficult, so thanks for sticking with it.

im having fun. this is actually one of my favourite games in a little while and im happy to be playing it

that said everytime i go to work or go to sleep i wake up to 10+ pages, and now we're at 106 pages, and it's burning me out really fast

catching up on 10 pages again :/, and i work in like 30 mins

this is where im at rn
im just about keeping up but im burning out to much to post from trying to read all the pages

Random, I'd like all your thoughts.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So, I was thinking.

I'm almost certain that color PT is for people who are W and W/X(short version being because Micc/Nancy Drew was not named as being part of that PT, and when Alisae/PH gave an elemental to someone, it was green aligned, meaning that of the two most likely color PT options, Green and White, White is the only reasonable option).

Which means that the Champion/Crusade are controlled by either Skybird or Icon.

Is it more likely that Skybird deliberately split her vote from her creature, or that Icon is piling as much pressure as he can on SD?

Do note this is all speculation.

-Cerb

What is gained from this speculation?

And I believe you are wrong for all that matters. Someone else I think is Champion/Crusade not saying who but I will say it isn’t me.

I've already expressed my opinions on the likely alignment of the owner of the Champion/Crusade.

Both Skybird and Icon are suspects.

Therefore, the gain should be obvious.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So, I was thinking.

I'm almost certain that color PT is for people who are W and W/X(short version being because Micc/Nancy Drew was not named as being part of that PT, and when Alisae/PH gave an elemental to someone, it was green aligned, meaning that of the two most likely color PT options, Green and White, White is the only reasonable option).

Which means that the Champion/Crusade are controlled by either Skybird or Icon.

Is it more likely that Skybird deliberately split her vote from her creature, or that Icon is piling as much pressure as he can on SD?

Do note this is all speculation.

-Cerb

Ask Varsoon if a neighborhood exists for White | Green.

Since you have to spend them on game mechanics questions anyway.

I mean, just ideas since you need them.

What are we waiting for now actually? I'm bored and we can end the day soonish please.

Who are we ending the day lynching?

Can't rush to end the day without a consensus actually existing, and one doesn't.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yume, I'd like some participation from you. :-/ You're supposed to be driving your hydra, and you have at least a bit of a reprieve since you're not longer at l-2...so use it.

-Cerb

pedit: They're far from the lynch for today. They have an additional double voter on them. Without that, they'd be at 3. If everyone who unvoted them went back to them, they'd be at 7, without that voter.

And there's essentially no chance that double voting creature will actually enable a lynch on them if they're scum.

So, they're only the lynch for today if they're town. Which is bad.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, and I guess they could also still end up the lynch for today even as scum if they're being bussed, but that player wouldn't be getting bussed D1, and if they were, they'd want to get a lot more credit out of it than anyone can currently claim.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, and I guess they could also still end up the lynch for today even as scum if they're being bussed, but that player wouldn't be getting bussed D1, and if they were, they'd want to get a lot more credit out of it than anyone can currently claim.

-Cerb

If the double voting creature is town, then it's way easier to get a lynch on scum without bussers.

~Kiana

I'm saying I find it very doubtful that none of the scum slots in the game have the ability to remove a creature from play.

That means even though there are currently 5(as of last VC) votes on SD, you can only count on 3 of those votes remaining in play when SD hits L-1, if they're scum(or scum want us to THINK they're scum). The highest they ever got was L-2, I believe, so if all those vote come back, they'd only be at 5 votes, ignoring the creature, because it doesn't count if we're voting scum.

That means we're far from a consensus.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

All I'm saying is that the Champion of the Parish DOES NOT EXIST AS FAR AS LYNCHING SCUM IS CONCERNED, or at least you shouldn't count on their votes.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

It's not even voting analysis.

There are ways to remove creatures in M:tG.
There are multiple scum slots on a team, so 9-12 cards available to them.
It's unlikely none of those cards can remove a creature.
2 of the votes on SD are from a creature.
If they're scum and look like they're going to be lynched, I would expect one of those removal cards to be used to get rid of the creature and reduce the votes on SD by 2.
If they're town, then nothing will be used, most likely, and we'll just mislynch.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Gamma: Unless Maid Cafe is coordinating with Skybird/SD/Iconeum, they are not in the hood SD was originally talking about.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

It's not even voting analysis.

There are ways to remove creatures in M:tG.
There are multiple scum slots on a team, so 9-12 cards available to them.
It's unlikely none of those cards can remove a creature.
2 of the votes on SD are from a creature.
If they're scum and look like they're going to be lynched, I would expect one of those removal cards to be used to get rid of the creature and reduce the votes on SD by 2.
If they're town, then nothing will be used, most likely, and we'll just mislynch.

-Cerb

So, you're supposing that Creature is either a) arrogant dumb town, or b) scum? Why not C) that Champion uses their powers to influence a scum lynch. Scum lynches can occur because scum lack the power or do not want to take the risk saving a partner.

There are more conversations with assumptions flowing through and it's rather annoying.

OMG NO.

...

You people need to learn how to read.

I'm not talking about Creature, the player.

I'm talking about the Champion of the Parish, the fucking creature(lower fucking case) that is responsible for 2 of the votes on SD, and which, if they are scum, will almost certainly be REMOVED before the lynching vote is placed, so the assumption that SD is the lynch for today is really friggin dumb, because the pressure on them is WAY less than it appears if they're actually scum.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

And..what's the risk for scum n using a removal spell to force town to put more votes into a lynch they don't hvae the support for?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

The fundamental point Im' making is Kiana was making a silly assumption when she was thinking that SD was the lynch for today, when there are only 3 *real* votes on the slot, and there were never more than 5 *real* votes on the slot at any point.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

The people in a rush to end the day are the same ones who were already voting for that slot as well, so it's not like people are just going to swarm that wagon to lynch SD because they just want the day to end.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

And..what's the risk for scum n using a removal spell to force town to put more votes into a lynch they don't hvae the support for?

-Cerb

Scum removing town votes tends to generate support for a lynch. If I had such powers and felt comfortable using them, I'd use them on SD town and do the hysteria dance and watch town finish the job. If SD scum and scum removed, SD has high odds of getting lynched.

If you don't want SD, what do you say to Micc/Icon?

I have no objections to either. Micc, as I said, sounded genuine in their attempts to dive into the game, but that's their only positive trait. Icon doesn't even have that much. I also don't even know if I object to SD, I'm just saying it's silly to act like the lynch for the day is decided when the game state doesn't support that conclusion.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

And sure, as scum, spending a resource to screw with town is a viable option. We're also not considering the town people who might object to the lynch as well, or even object to the power currently being wielded by that slot, and want to reduce it before the end of the day.

Just. Lots of variables. Almost certain existence of ways to remove those factors. Silly to assume those factors will stay in play.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

And..what's the risk for scum n using a removal spell to force town to put more votes into a lynch they don't hvae the support for?

-Cerb

Scum removing town votes tends to generate support for a lynch. If I had such powers and felt comfortable using them, I'd use them on SD town and do the hysteria dance and watch town finish the job. If SD scum and scum removed, SD has high odds of getting lynched.

If you don't want SD, what do you say to Micc/Icon?

I have no objections to either. Micc, as I said, sounded genuine in their attempts to dive into the game, but that's their only positive trait. Icon doesn't even have that much. I also don't even know if I object to SD, I'm just saying it's silly to act like the lynch for the day is decided when the game state doesn't support that conclusion.

-Cerb

You know I've been patient but it's time for you to vote.

I also am down for a Mark lynch. They have done several things that I just flat out don't like but I'm tabling that unless others are bc siblings and drama.

We should just let the White God of Animals sort itself out by its actions unless a mechanical clear happens.

~Titus

That's simply not going to happen until, at minimum, 48 hours before day end(when our last question for the day is enabled)

That will likely be the case every day going forward, unless we identify scum with a very high degree of certainty.

-Cerb