Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: Gustavo

Why?

I have to vote someone

But why not vote scum though

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: Momrangal

That's L-2

[Irrelephant11]

I really don't know what to do with Mom's feeling "betrayed" by me - scum motivation is an emotional appeal for me to go back to townreading her, but it's also an odd thing for scum to think to say. I'll hopefully have more time today to add more thoughts, but in the mean time I'm fine with a Mom vote.

[Irrelephant11]

It hasn't disappeared. I just think you're incorrect about off/on wagon analysis, and idk which of Mom/Key is scum. I'll lynch either one, though I'd rather vote Not_Mafia, honestly. Those three are basically my lynchpool. I'm no expert at understanding counterwagons, though - I could vote Keyser if that's helpful to the game state?

[Irrelephant11]

i'm more interested in why two people with mysterious townreads on mom yesterday (tw and irrelephant) are now voting her

I've answered this. Short version: I think she's scummy

[Irrelephant11]

Skitter you're doing the same thing you accused me of doing to you: not finding context for your suspicion of me (to a lesser degree, obvs). To both Skitter & Shoshin: Last game day I had Mom in my townpile, you (skitter) asked me about it and I gave reasons why. Today I know Gamma's alignment, and Mom's words gained new meaning. I didn't think she was scummy before Gamma flipped because the main reason I think she's scum now is knowing Gamma's alignment. She also has super underperformed and doesn't seem to have much direction this game day.

Sidenote: finding Mom scummy D1 for her interactions with Gamma without knowing his alignment is actually kind of weird?

Gonna ISO her though for due diligence

[Irrelephant11]

I'm not ignoring him like you seem to think I am? I'm waiting for him to vote, and trying to meta him in the meantime. He just doesn't look as bad re:Gamma, but like I said I'm still willing to vote him. I think your case includes a lot of good points and captures the scummy feel better than I could manage, so I'm working on reading anything new from him when I have time

pedit: the worst is still scummy, but I'm not sure I want to lynch him. Re-read the worst from 2008 on (lol yes the year)

[Irrelephant11]

At L-2 without intent to vote?

[Irrelephant11]

Gamma had time to claim and we were near deadline. Not the same?

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: Keyser

[Irrelephant11]

Okay. So let's pretend it's L-1. Still no intent to vote from anyone, and as Skitter has pointed out a Mom lynch doesn't necessarily have general support. Claims aren't necessary until that player would otherwise be lynched. You seem resigned to a Mom lynch without wanting to participate in it, and your desire to see Mom claim early is scummy

[Irrelephant11]

Keyser has voted for Skitter30 and Bernie Sanders D1, and so far those are ALL of his votes???

Your playstyle frustratingly doesn't seem to match any game you've ever played. You seem ready to just accept things thrown at you, though (at least by me: this argument, my scumread of you D1), which feels like a scummy way to avoid attention. It reminds me of how I sometimes play scum IRL - "yeah, I'm scum lol ", and moving on to other topics. You do the same sort of thing with shoshin's scumread of you and the worst in 2007, and Momrangal's lynch even though you're not very willing to vote her.

Who do you want lynched? Why are you waiting for more posts from Mom to vote

anyone

? Why did you ask for a claim?

[Irrelephant11]

Keyser is currently the only vote on the worst lol
If Mom is town Keyser/the worst actually looks v viable

Dangit I got distracted ISOing Mom

[Irrelephant11]

Hey Mom do you have an updated readslist?

[Irrelephant11]

Your playstyle frustratingly doesn't seem to match any game you've ever played.

Scratch this thought about Keyser. After looking through ~5 town games and 2 scum games over ~3 total hours I think his only tell is his politeness. This could be confbias but he seems to get way more rude and aggressive as town, maybe not at first but almost every town game it happens. It doesn't happen as scum, though - he stays v polite. Polite and passive are his MO here imo.

The only other thing about it though is that at the end of his last town game he admitted he was trying to change his meta and mix things up. Regardless of alignment I assume that somewhat affects meta-reading him for here. Still, though, town-Keyser usually seems to have a bite to him that I'm not seeing here.

Also I just want to say Keyser townreads me like just so easily all game, and it really doesn't feel like he's had to work for it? Suggests he

knows

I'm town.

On another note, Mom's ISO doesn't look suddenly *super scummy* in retrospect (I still see the things I townread her for as slightly towny), but she's nullscum at best for her thoughts on Gamma, her entrance today, and her lurkiness after returning from V/LA. Curious to hear her reads.

[Irrelephant11]

What do you mean? You’ve never anything but townread me, iirc

[Irrelephant11]

Maybe I would!

I mean you’re always allowed to towncase me for other’s benefit, I just remember thinking about your reads of me that you’re awfully sure about me, which fits with Shoshin’s other points of you knowing multiple players’ alignment

[Irrelephant11]

Townies? Who... Gamma and you? I’m equally willing to lynch Mom, the worst, and Not_Mafia. You scumread at least two of those players, yes?

[Irrelephant11]

*sigh*

I’ll cut in and say they were

very

calculated. Honestly it’s nice being townread but I’m playing pretty similar compared to that game, just worse.

[Irrelephant11]

Did he narrate things as town? Or interpret things in ways that don't make sense?

Narrate? Hm. Off the top of my head I remember him saying “this narrative makes sense” as scum a couple times about other people’s posts. Oh you asked “as town”. Maybe? This isn’t something I was looking for. I know he engaged people he disagreed with. He always had some level of “oh huh +1” spectating-feeing, regardless of alignment. I definitely can’t answer the second question though because i only read ISOs, so I don’t know if his interpretations fit contextual truths or not

[Irrelephant11]

@skitter and BV, answering you will require quoting, so I’ll do it when I’m not on mobile tomorrow. Partial answers:

BV I thought Bernie’s associations were interesting, I hadn’t inspected him closely, I had a (paranoid) feeling he might be scum, I voted there. It didn’t reveal much but I’ve since seen a lot of towniness from him, so he’s a townread.

Skitter I didn’t vote Mom at the start of the day because I was *certain* she was scum, I voted her because her EOD1 made her do the most dramatic drop in my reads. I’m still not certain but if she was town I would have expected a better response to pressure than she gave. Like she basically didn’t address anything from D1, so meh, she definitely doesn’t deserve a townread atm

[Irrelephant11]

Ill only vote you/skittle/elephant today.

Scumread of me is new I think? Where’d that come from?

Where’d your other scumreads (for example on Mom) go?

[Irrelephant11]

I mean yes but also I don’t know what your point is here?

[Irrelephant11]

Oh you right, my bad. You scumread Keyser and Bernie earlier, though, I thought (based on 1678).

I have apologized for being over the top. I agree it was too much, and hope you can forgive me. At the same time, I think that's a bad reason to lynch someone. Do you scumread me?

[Irrelephant11]

Oh sorry I thought you were commenting on alignments and I was confused. Yeah more fun for sure

[Irrelephant11]

Spoiler: Mathdino Case on The Worst in Open 719

1. Stay in the background D1, make smart sounding statements but don't step on any toes. Never be the scummiest person.

2. Broadcast that you're gonna claim PR. Bonus points if you do this as town anyway.

3. Openly push scum wincon without looking like you're trying to. Play dumb at every opportunity. If experienced players are trying to lynch town, defer to them. Bonus BONUS points if they're trying to lynch good town.

4. Get indignant when people try to lynch you. OMGUSing acceptable.

5. Ham it alllll the way up to the point where half your posts are scumclaims while the other half are "townslips" and dumbtells because you're having fun playing scum and you're having fun fucking with town's heads. You're having even more fun when you know you won't get lynched through a PR claim.

sound about right?

You're having even more fun when you know you won't get lynched through a PR claim.

sound about right?

Well frick.

VOTE: the worst is back to being my fav lynch. Also Nauci yeah I was kidding re:Not_Mafia, I scumread him and he's ignored me a couple times this game, so I asked that.

[Irrelephant11]

hmmmm

ok fine

VOTE: mom

L-2

, if anyone wants to join the wagon be sure to give intent because Not_Mafia might quickhammer

I've said a lot today, and I'm not sure there's a ton more information to be gathered fmpov, so I'm ready for a flip and more useful information.

I think Keyser deserves WAY more attention from many players who are just avoiding eye contact with anything that has his name in it, especially given Shoshin's case on him makes a lot of sense.

I think Not_Mafia is scummy and I don't recommend policy lynching him for playing quietly in every game but I do recommend lynching him when he has done 0 helpful things for town (suggesting he's not even reading) and participated in a town lynch.

I concede that it's possible that there was only one scum on-wagon but I don't yet have reason to clearly townread BV like others seem to, aside from a townlean on mathdino.

I'm hoping the next flip(s) will clear up enough associatives that I can be less paranoid tomorrow about players like skitter, nauci, & gustavo.

Oh and I think I have left skitter and BV hanging with some questions let me get back to those

pedit: oh mom is here! I'll UNVOTE: to have conversation with her for a bit

[Irrelephant11]

ebwop UNVOTE: lol

[Irrelephant11]

Ahaha okay my b! I'm not trying to rush, just stating where I'm at. I also want to make sure we have enough time to change in wagons if necessary, and we're down to just above 3 days.

[Irrelephant11]

Ill only vote you/skittle/elephant today.

Scumread of me is new I think? Where’d that come from?

Where’d your other scumreads (for example on Mom) go?

You being an ass made me want to lynch you. Pretty sure I haven’t had a mom scum read today.

Oh you right, my bad. You scumread Keyser and Bernie earlier, though, I thought (based on 1678).

I have apologized for being over the top. I agree it was too much, and hope you can forgive me. At the same time, I think that's a bad reason to lynch someone. Do you scumread me?

Gustavo can you please respond to this, or maybe let me know that you're going to later? I'd like to know why you are no longer scumreading Bernie or Keyser, and whether or not you scumread me (& if so, why).

[Irrelephant11]

The problem with this is that none of the points Momra made in favor of TheWorst are actually good ones. I think I touched on this before but do you actually agree with the points Momra is making about TheWorst?

Spoiler:

Also, I feel like everyone has made a decision on duck based on his pred replacing out.

Sure it was weird, but Gemini was engaging before she ghosted. It doesn't seem like no one had taken into consideration that she replaced out because of IRL reasons and it didn't seem like anyone looked for proof in other games she might be in.

That being said, duck has 30 pages to read to catch up on and that's not an easy feat

And no I'm not about to metadive. I don't want to keep hearing "this is how he plays so we should just clear him"

I didn't say you should "clear" Invis because of meta, I said you shouldn't scumread him for things that aren't scummy for him to do. How would you feel if someone called you scummy because of things that you do in every game as town? You'd think that person was scumreading you for things that aren't scummy, right? Apply that same logic to Invis.

You also told me this once upon a time.

Ducks not super engaged and doesn't seem very excited but if I replaced in, and everyone scum read me based solely on my pred and didn't allow me to even catch up I wouldn't be super excited either.

Despite that, though duck did attempt to engage with people while he caught up (because he has to even if he was loosely following the game ) and despite lacking time

Mmm it seemed like her points here were mainly "hey give the worst a minute before you decide he's lurky scum". At the time I think I did agree that there was more pressure on the worst than I expected, so I thought Mom saying so was NAI at worst.

also i don't really see the keyser-knowing-you're-town-thing

I was going to provide quotes but just ISO him. He starts with "I'm liking Irrelephant11's scumread of me" and then, with basically no further reasoning, townreads me with certainty for all of D1. D2, he really only mentions my alignment in 1835, during which he compliments me a lot, and is certain that everything I said D1 comes from town. All that said, this is pretty weak on re-read. Still, his "wOw have I been pocketed by Irrelephant???" D1 still doesn't sound genuine. I also didn't like this game day how he suggested that maybe he *does* scumread me when I said I would townread him if he did.

Why should a player arbitrarily restrict themselves to four people and try to figure out which of them is the scummiest? It seems like a nonsensical exercise when they could simply look at the whole game and figure out which of the players are the scummiest. How someone voted (or didn't vote) Gamma is definitely something that'll factor in but that's not a reason to pull a number you think is reasonable and scumhunt based on that number. This feels like you're trying to guide people into focusing on specific places when there's no pro-town reason to do it.

wowww you're reading a lot into this. I already have a clearer perspective about those of us who voted for Gamma, because I know I'm town. This lets me analyze the wagon better. Assuming there's scum both on and off wagon, I wanted to hear off-wagon players' perspectives about each other so as to have better ideas for both groups. You'll notice in my ISO that I've tried to actually pull attention back onto the wagon (which I was part of) multiple times this game day

[Irrelephant11]

Key, do you have any games as scum / town?

Yes, I’ve played around 15-20 games on Mafiascum.

Can you link your games as scum?

I sadly cannot help you right now as I am busy reading Momrangel's posts.

I sadly cannot help you right now as I am busy reading Momrangel's posts.

How hard is it for you to find your scum games and post the links?

The Momrangel slot demands my complete attention and full focus.

This may be a pivotal moment in the game.

The fuck is this shit; it takes like 30 seconds to link previous games

btw I think this post is a massive town-tell for Nauci. In case anyone had any doubts.

Same

[Irrelephant11]

Well, there was small part of me that thought her scum equity included being partners with Keyser, which I no longer see.
But also, and mainly, her getting this upset over not being cooperative seems v unlikely as scum. Like I just think she wouldn't think to have an angry response, I'd expect any of fake confusion/scumreading Keyser/taking his side to pocket him/ignoring it entirely instead.

Hbu?

[Irrelephant11]

@Irrelephant who are your town reads right now, and how strong are they?

Shoshin, Gustavo, you, Bernie, errantparabola, skitter are my townreads, probably in that order?

I feel pretty confident on all but skitter, who I'm sheeping shoshin & blackvoid on. A

lot

would have to change for me to remotely interested in lynching any of those players (except, again, skitter). BV is null, everyone else is below null.

I feel like a lot has been sort of shouted into the void this game day, and I'm having trouble picking up the pieces in a coherent way. I feel like we've been dancing around lynching the worst or mom, and I'm leaning the worst but Bernie really thinks I should trust him and vote Mom, and idk I still think Not_Mafia has great odds at flipping red too. Keyser is clearly not getting lynched today but is not coming out from under my microscope tomorrow, especially given the new likelihood that Shoshin won't survive the night. Momrangal hasn't done much to help her case, which I'm tempted to townread because scum would (in my case anyway) care more, but Shoshin's right that she also feels like scum who has given up.

VOTE: mom, since I only unvoted her to talk and she doesn't seem to have a lot of time/willingness(?) to do so. I'd switch to any of my other three scumreads, too

[Irrelephant11]

Based on the wiki, if scum has a PR, probably 3. If not, probably 1

[Irrelephant11]

I just browse the setups in my free time and that's the pattern I've noticed

Fineee I'll put work into reading BV
I've mostly been ignoring him because I townleaned math and he scumreads me and that makes me want to scumread him because I'm apparently bad at disassociating. I'll get back to you soon

[Irrelephant11]

I thought Bernie's turn on Gamma could only come from town, it was too dangerously attention-grabbing to come from scum (re:bernie bro)

He asked us who are less-experienced to trust him. idk, this setup could include information I don't have that he does. I townread him, I only marginally want the worst dead over mom, and he asked us to BoP him if it doesn't work out. I'm not like giving my vote to Bernie, I'm just not voting the worst this game day because I somewhat trust Bernie.

[Irrelephant11]

lol PR speculation was teacher's MO, not mine. I guess my initial feeling is that PR speculation helps scum more than town? But maybe post-full-reveal it would be more helpful to think about...

[Irrelephant11]

But @nauci I'm just busy this week, I barely have time to keep up with the thread. I'd love to be much more tryhard. I could copy/paste all the wagon analysis I did on my own at the start of D2 if you want proof that I continue to be tryhardrelephant (lol the elephant portmanteaus are my fav), but like you say my effort is NAI. I'm trying my hardest, promise

[Irrelephant11]

So, I'm treating Gustavo as 85%+ confirmed town, vca says it's very unlikely that Bernie, errantparabola, or Keyser are scum (if anyone wants this in more detail let me know), somewhat unlikely that it's Not_Mafia or the worst, and... that's most of it I think.

That leaves me with BV, skitter, and Nauci. skitter and Nauci are never a team so let's park this votemobile on VOTE: blackvoid, who has yet to vote since replacing in \o/

Also Shoshin said at one point that she was burnt out on mafia and I hope she sees this and decides to keep playing mafia because she was v fun imo

[Irrelephant11]

Votecount 1.4
skitter30(2) ~ Keyser Söze(36), Irrelephant11(15)
Nauci(2) ~ Mathdino(22),

Shoshin(53)

Invisibility(2) ~

Momrangal(5)

, Bernie Sanders(34)
the worst(1) ~ Invisibility(26)

Shoshin(1)

~ skitter30(18)
northsidegal(1) ~

stungun0404(22)

Momrangal(1)

~ northsidegal(4)
Keyser Söze(1) ~ the worst(35)

Gamma Emerald(1)

~ Nauci(17)


Not Voting (1):

Gamma Emerald(13)

To start, I find it very unlikely that one of scum!Bernie's first votes joins Mom on a two person wagon. There was tons of freedom at that point to vote anybody, so that would be weird. Also, votecount 1.4 has a voting pattern that goes like this:

Voting:

Stun

>> NSG >>

Momrangal

>(with Bernie)> Invisibility >> the worst >> Keyser >(with me)> Skitter >>

Shoshin

>(with math)> Nauci >>

Gamma

which lowers the scum equity of both NSG and Invis (although I just now went back to look at NSG's vote and it's never explained so move errant to the second category of "less likely scum".

[Irrelephant11]

Literally I spend night time doing vca and daytime doing gameplay reads, deal with it @all. I recognize that you (skitter) are unlikely to be scum but you're not cleared by your votes by any means and bussing your least helpful partner to death for towncred is a thing

next is 1.1

Votecount 1.1
Mathdino(2) ~ stungun0404(1), Shoshin(18)
Shoshin(1) ~ skitter30(7)

Momrangal(1) ~ Invisibility(11)

Irrelephant11(1) ~ Nauci(7)

Invisibility(1) ~ Momrangal(3)

Bernie Sanders(1) ~ Mathdino(13)

Not Voting (6): Irrelephant11(0), Bernie Sanders(0), GeminiTwin12(1), northsidegal(0), Keyser Soze(0), Gamma Emerald(4)

This is why Not_Mafia is less likely scum, like yeah they could coordinate this (and in fact Mom said "let's lynch actual scum" in her vote post) but it seems unlikely. This is WIFOM but imo lowers NM's scum equity, especially because Mom rode the Invis wagon for so long.

[Irrelephant11]

Votecount 1.7
the worst(3) ~ Invisibility(28), skitter30(61), Bernie Sanders(81)
Nauci(3) ~ Mathdino(54),

Shoshin

(90), Irrelephant11(41)
skitter30(2) ~ Keyser Söze(85),

Momrangal

(27)

Momrangal

(2) ~ northsidegal(5), the worst(68)

Gamma Emerald

(1) ~ Nauci(18)

Not Voting (2):

stungun0404

(32),

Gamma Emerald

(34)

If Mom joined her scumpartner Keyser in voting Skitter, yikes. She couldn't even claim she was sheeping Keyser here, because Keyser gave very little reasoning at the time iirc (mom didn't either), so the only reason to vote next to her partner here is to... vote next to her partner. skitter looks somewhat more towny, here, but mom being the second vote on a scumbuddy is less surprising/odd.

btw, I'm focusing a lot on early D1 for vca as we get flips, because by the end of D1 myself and Nauci had talked enough about vca to make scum more careful, probably

[Irrelephant11]

Oh and 1.7 is also why I'm somewhat townreading nsg/the worst, though by my own logic I probably should have the worst and skitter on the same tier, so I guess I move the worst down a tier. I agree that my vca has led me to a weird place, but it clarifies some reads I already have (Bernie, errant) and challenges others (nauci, skitter, keyser) and also gives direction on who to look more closely at

[Irrelephant11]

My reads post-flips, mostly independent of vca, would be something like

Gustavo
Bernie
skitter
errantparabola
nauci
blackvoid
keyser
the worst
not_maf

with an acknowledgment that I have this feeling that one scum is in my blind spot

[Irrelephant11]

Do you see Mom’s obsession with Bernie as their attempt to lynch town, or a case of enthusiastic distancing (as she knew her time was up)?

I mostly read it as a red herring. She needed a direction to push, didn't want to join the tw wagon (maybe because tw scum, maybe because the other two scum were already pushing it), so she picked Bernie and ran with it. It could mayyyybe be distancing but that's not how I read it atm

[Irrelephant11]

also it was quite possibly the polar opposite of discreet

This lol

[Irrelephant11]

Actually tbf Mom said something about PR-reading him near the end of D1,

[Irrelephant11]

it was basically the elephant in the room during d2
And if worst is scum, it will be the irrelevphant in the room

Haha not sure if you’re implying my alignment is somehow related to tw’s(???), but i like the pun

Pedit: Keyser you’re kidding right

[Irrelephant11]

tw despite your best effort to be a very obvious PR it’s very likely that Gustavo was protected N1 so you’re looking p scummy

VOTE: the worst what’s your claim

[Irrelephant11]

Mmm fine if you’re waiting for something specific and that thing isn’t my vote

VOTE: Not_Mafia whaddup

[Irrelephant11]

Before you go who’s your gut scumlist

[Irrelephant11]

Trying to parse what a scum reaction to a town!tw would look like and I think it looks like Keyser, or silence
Not sure I believe tw is town yet though

[Irrelephant11]

That’s a bad vote. NM is always useless. Voting them won’t help

See this isn’t true though, I’ve seen NM play in a helpful way at least twice (once in a game I replaced into, once in a game i spectated). He’s capable of being pro-town if he is town, even while keeping o his quiet meta, and is choosing not to be

Pedit: wow for someone who thinks I’m town “pretty shit mate” is, surprising?? Like tw basically claimed PR at the start of D2, if not D1, and scum hasn’t touched him. It’s also part of his scum meta to claim pr. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to vote tw right now, thanks, and that’s why I am leaning town!peoplevotingtw, because only scum would know to believe him/have incentive to pretend to believe him.

[Irrelephant11]

I feel like you and Nauci are looking for a reason to townread Irrelephant rather than analyze his posts and objectively reach a conclusion.

funny I thought something v similar about you

[Irrelephant11]

Anyone around? I want to play this in real time rather than stare at previous game days for a bit

[Irrelephant11]

Are there any players' alignments you feel sure of?

[Irrelephant11]

What about NM is leaning town?

[Irrelephant11]

Hmm okay. I guess you probably want to re-read before answering this but do you have a preferred lynch? As the closest thing to confirmed town we have, your thoughts on this definitely ought to weigh more than anyone else's.

pedit: I was gonna re-read Mom's posts after talking for a bit, and I agree that Keyser has scum potential. Reading his past games, he seems to have an aggressive side when he thinks he's found scum that he seems to be trying to reign in this game, with short occasional outbursts at players he otherwise townreads (me and Shoshin, maybe you at one point? I can't remember and will check this). I don't know why town would reign that in if it puts attention on scum. I also think I would townread his past town games p quickly as a player and I definitely am not doing that here. Then again, his votes look like town votes given scum!Mom, so I'm not going to be as quick to vote/lynch him this game day.

Is Keyser your scummiest read?

[Irrelephant11]

I've felt much better with my town reads this game. So far... a 100% record

scum claim

I'm actually feeling a lot better about D3 Keyser, overall, just based on how he's approaching the game and trying to rule out scum based on Mom's flip. I'm thinking about the game similarly atm, so it comes across as a towny perspective. Keyser moves to null. Re-reading Mom now

[Irrelephant11]

I dont even think there's that much analyzable data in every post anyway

Ouch


So I went through a Mom/math/blackvoid triple ISO and before math's replacement here's everything Mom and Mathdino ever said about each other.

Spoiler:

Stun-town
Keys???town

Mathprobtown but I'm probably gonna flip back and forth there

Gamma??? Worth looking into
Elephant???town
Nanci???
Sho???
Skit???
DUCCKKKKYYYYYY!!!!if scum, never playing with Gemini again
NSG??
Bernie???town

Mentally I'm on page 9, but I don't know invisibilitys meta. I've never played and I pulled something I thought was scummy and rolled with it. I know you touched on it once but like, even if it is his meta whats stopping him from being scum here? If it's his meta it should be NAI and you shouldn't be town reading him off that.

Irrelephant11
Shoshin
stungun0404
Keyser Soze

Mathdino

Bernie

Nauci
the worst
northsidegal*
Invisibility

Gamma Emerald
skitter

That's where I stand. Moved invis with meta considered

What do you think of {mathdino, tw, nm}, especially compared to other times you've seen them? In addition, are there any people you'd like me to reconsider my read on?

Duck.

Also, NM posted like, once? I feel like I remember him posting alot more as town and I expected him to make a bigger entrance here now that you've brought him up.

I actually townread math which IDK how to really take considering I usually scumread him regardless of his alignment. Objectively speaking, though and in a vacuum everything he's done is straight null alignment wise. Nothing he's done is outside his range of play as scum but I have a gut feeling that he isn't here, and it may be his progression.

Duck, I've stated my thoughts on him multiple times, and I am not really seeing the lack of spirit that everyone else seems to see. I don't think he's played like he did when he was scum though this fade is a little weird, but I think it's entirely plausible that this game may have slipped his mind. I also see him as town based off something that I don't really want to talk about

Math never mentioned Mom once. I seems somewhat unlikely that math would fail to mention his scum-partner at all, but I also think Mom's thoughts on math are v icky. Not to mention, math clearly thought he would really "show up" at some point, and maybe scum!him was holding off on sharing a Mom read most other players had already done so, at which point he had kinda lurked out and then replaced. Thoughts?

more coming in another post...

[Irrelephant11]

while I'm doing this ISO on blackvoid (which is so freaking long... the catchup thing is not towny imo it just filled the thread with questions that had mostly been asked & answered already) I'm gonna go ahead and say that BV/skitter is actually a pretty likely scumteam imo if neither NM nor tw are scum.

pedit: is that about me

[Irrelephant11]

Another note as I'm doing this (how is this taking soooo long, please bv if you're town never make these giant walls again):

BV says an awful lot about Mom for someone who is jumping in brand new.

Actually, looking back at his first post, he says he had been "spectating but skimming pretty hard". So maybe he focused on Mom because he knew Mom was the biggest wagon. Still, though... Mom had very little content overall and it feels like a solid 1/5 of what BV had to say while catching up *happened to be* about Mom. Imo this suggests intentional distancing after checking in with the scum thread, not genuine writing-as-you-go.

@Blackvoid, would you say you were intentionally focusing on specific players when you did your readthrough, or just commenting on individual things as you felt the need?

pedit: who said you were less engaged? Definitely untrue

[Irrelephant11]

Keyser - huhwha?

If you mean it's unlikely that BV is teammates with both Mom and tw, I agree. I really only think he's scum if the worst is town, which is not something I am sold on rn

[Irrelephant11]

I just discovered that 2156 is NOt another votecount thingy, but instead full of words! Wowwwww hahaha and so much of it includes meeee this is

something

pedit: @skitter I think you're possible-scum this time just from my vca and how BV talks about you. If the worst and Not_Mafia are both town, I think BV is the next most likely scum, and you would be his msot likely partner. If enough things happen today to make me think that tw and NM are both town, I'll ISO you again and let you know more thoughts. For now, it was just a thing I noticed while reading BV. I don't scumread you in isolation right now

pedit2: I'm making pushes on you because you've played in real time the least out of anyone in the player list and because I can't *do* anything to sort NM or the worst right now. I'll obviously drop it if the worst is like "Guilty on NM", or even better, "Guilty on Irrelephant"

[Irrelephant11]

Spoiler: Everything BV said about Mom up to 2517

Zzz
This is great and all but let's all build a wagon on actual scum
VOTE: invisible

This is the entrance I liked the least. The "zzz" tries to give off the impression that Momrangal doesn't find anything that's been said so far to be useful and the term "actual scum" feels like she's saying she's got some really good insight that everyone else is missing. But she doesn't actually say what it is. This whole post just rubs me the wrong way. I think the discussion that's happened so far is fine for the first two pages and not worthy of a "zzz."

Cuz what I see is active lurking already happening.

How was Invisibility "active lurking?" At the time you said this, he had already inserted himself into skitter's and shoshin's back-and-forth and posted opinions and clarifications to help move it forward. I think that's fine for page 2. What else were you expecting?

All of his early posts reek of eagerness to look like he's doing something productive and meaningful while doing absolutely jackall.

He's sitting there looking pretty, playing it safe, and it looks like hes engaging with people but the questions are empty.

I'm not seeing how you got that from 39. It looks like he was clarifying whether Shoshin's scumread on Math was RVS or not.

...

DUCCKKKKYYYYYY!!!!if scum, never playing with Gemini again

I'm not following what you're trying to say here. Is replacing out as scum a blacklist-worthy offence? People replace out when they don't have time to play. Alignment should never be a factor.

...

That's to the end of page 30. Catchup is going slower than expected but I'm still hoping I'll be caught up by tonight. We shall see. Feel free to engage my posting. I feel like I have a bit more solid take on the game now. My focus from POE is mostly on Irrelephant, Momrangal, TheWorst, and Northsidegal's slot (but I haven't read any of the replacement's posts yet). I'll do an actual readslist when I'm caught up.

Momrangel's Bernie case and defense of TheWorst is 794 is really convoluted (she lampshaded it in her next post but it doesn't help). Why would Bernie be pushing a mislynch on someone who vouched for him being town? When there are so many other players that he could have pushed and even used TheWorst to help him push those lynches? I also don't get how Bernie was taking a "neutral stance" on TheWorst. And I don't think people would be so simplistic as to simply go after the ones who pushed TheWorst hardest in the event of a townflip. I also thought the narrative of TheWorst as the vulnerable player being piled on and mislynched by Bernie seems a bit forced.

Ugh Nauci you’re sounding towny sometimes but you keep calling for my lynch and it doesn’t feel like you actually think I’m scum you just want me lynched and I want us both to be town but we’re never gonna be able to work together if we are, are we

I highly doubt this is something scum would say to someone they are scum reading/trying to lynch.

I disagree. I don't think Irrelephant as scum would need to lynch Nauci specifically. If he can get Nauci to back off with an emotional-type appeal, that's just as good for him.

...

Also, I feel like everyone has made a decision on duck based on his pred replacing out.

Who did this besides you and Stungun? You literally said in 470 that if TheWorst is scum, you're never playing with Gemini again.

It doesn't seem like no one had taken into consideration that she replaced out because of IRL reasons

and it didn't seem like anyone looked for proof in other games she might be in.

That being said, duck has 30 pages to read to catch up on and that's not an easy feat

The bolded is super weird because you're the one reading into her replace out. You're also very charitable towards TheWorst which makes me not feel good because you're both in my POE pool and you're stretching pretty hard to defend him. I dislike your Bernie and Nauci pushes as well.

intersting to note that mom votes nauci and duckling moves his vote off of mom onto nauci. i'm *pretty* sure from voting patterns that mom and duckling aren't scum together even though mom's defending him; the timing of their votes don't really feel like partners to me.

I noticed that too but my impression was that they wanted to swing momentum onto another viable-looking wagon as an alternative to TheWorst. I didn't like how Momrangal defended both Irrelephant and TheWorst and pushed their attackers and tried to get a wagon going elsewhere.

Defending the worst comes across as towny to me here given how widely scumread tw was at the time - unless they’re scum together, in which case this seems like pretty bad play?

The problem with this is that none of the points Momra made in favor of TheWorst are actually good ones. I think I touched on this before but do you actually agree with the points Momra is making about TheWorst?

...

794 and surrounding were solid af fmpov. like I am not a fan of how I was positioned as scum for my predecessor and irl busyness here. it crossed my mind several times that I was an easy af push for scum to hide behind, and

I found Mom seeing things exactly the same way.

either she's town or has me pocketed hard but I'm not sure what scum!Mom's method is in WKing me here

LOL what? In the post you linked, Momrangal shaded your biggest rock-solid townread that you vouched for (Bernie) and talked about how he's pushing you for a mislynch. This is one of the scummiest posts in the game. Edit: you talk about this later in 1450 but I still don't follow. "Gross" is a bizarre way to describe a push on you that you don't find scummy. I'm gonna need you to explain exactly what these tells are because you're holding onto these "secret tells" that Bernie is town and that doesn't help read you at all.

1371 by Nauci lines up with my own reads well enough that I think it's more likely to be town.

I think Bernie and Mom aren't s/s but maybe also not t/t so I need to reread there

Why can't they be town/town independent of your read on Momrangal? I'm always puzzled when someone claimes that two people are the same or different alignments. How can you make such a determination? The only thing you can really read into pre-flip is whether two people can be scum together, or not.

fake hammer tho

What town motive is there to call out a fake-hammer? I can think of the obvious scum motive; that you don't want your Gamma mislynch slipping away because Gamma reacts in a towny way when he thinks he's been hammered.

@Skitter, I'll summarize thoughts on the Gamma lynch here since you asked. It didn't change my reads much. I still find Irrelephant/TheWorst scummy and am thinking Momrangal is potentially a scum wagon that didn't go through. But that's me saying that nothing rules out this existing scumread as opposed to developing a new one. I think Not_Mafia's and Gustavo's vote are both pretty bad but Gustavo's isn't bad enough to outweigh my stungun townread and Not_Mafia/Invisibility is in a null spot for me. I wish Errantparabola was made to take a stance and put a vote down.

Finished reading until page 65 (end of D1). I'm going to take a short break and then read D2.

gamestate is highly highly consistent with Nauci and skitter being scum with Mom. in retrospect vesides recognising that I shouldn't be lynched she hasn't done a lot. I think I was being stupid yday.

Can you go more into your theory on Nauci/Momrangal? Also, why does skitter spend the end of D1 trying to lynch Momrangal if they are scum together?

Irrelephant is switching his votes around a lot to mostly scumread players. He votes Momrangal, then Not_Mafia, then skitter, then TheWorst, then Momrangal again, then Keyser. I'm conflicted on what this means. His votes don't really make sense as it's hard to believe that he's changing his mind so often on people who clearly can't be scum together and is helping a lot of wagons form. On the other hand, I feel like scum would not want to change their votes so often. Something I'll look into when I read his town and scum games.

Current reads:

skitter30
Shoshin
Bernie Sanders
Gustavo

Nauci
Keyser Soze

Not_Mafia

the worst
Errantparabola
Irrelephant11
Momrangal

@skitter, I'm going to look back to see where TheWorst pushed you as scum. His reads are pretty unbelievable (you, Nauci, Momrangal scum together). I'm guessing that as town, he's a perceptive enough player to know that it's an unlikely team. How likely is he to push difficult lynches as scum? Do you have experience with his scumgame?

The thing that makes me paranoid about the gamestate is that the people I find scummy (like Errant, TW) are okay with a Momrangal wagon and Irrelephant is okay with both. Gamestate-wise, Momra/TW are the two wagons likely to go through so I'm no longer considering them to be partners. One could be scum but not both. I really want to re-evaluate the people outside my strongest townpile but who are not actively in my scumpile which is Nauci/Keyser/Not_Mafia.

It might actually be a good idea for TheWorst/Momrangal to claim. If we're going to wait all the way until intent is given, we're probably going to scramble towards deadline and it seems pretty obvious that those are our likely options.

@Rask, I'm going to do an ISO of both Momrangal and TheWorst before putting down a vote but I'm actually leaning towards TheWorst at this point. Is there anything meta-wise I should know that makes him less likely to be scum? You noted yourself that his view on the gamestate makes no sense at all and his switch to Momrangal saying that he's being wagoned as a counter to that and pushing Nauci/Skitter/Momrangal as the team is really kind of a stretch. I could see Momrangal townreading him for silly reasons but the way he latched onto that and townread her back is I think even worse. Basically, Momrangal called you scummy for pushing him and his response was that her view of the gamestate is totally relatable or something of that sort which makes no sense at all.

This kinda reminds of you pushing GM in our last game and not wanting to lynch Sotty7 because a GM scumflip would clear you whereas a Sotty7 scumflip would still keep pressure on you. I hope that's not your motivation because I don't think either of Momrangal/TheWorst flipping either alignment is going change my read on you. So, I just want to work with your straightforward thoughts on them.

Before you go who’s your gut scumlist

You, TheWorst, and ErrantP are the ones I find scummiest. I wanted to cross-check interactions with Momrangal based on flip but I was sick during the night phase so that didn't pan out so I'm going to get to it tonight and tomorrow.

tl;dr THERES A LOT

BV has very much to say about Mom, going so far as to make "Why did you say that about Mom?" a hallmark of his catchup process. He responds to probably more than a third of Mom's posts, critiquing them individually and never having anything positive to say. Maybe it's just me, but right off the bat BV seems informed about Mom's red alignment, aware Mom is a likely lynch for D2, and doing everything possible to stay away.

But that's not all!

Blackvoid was the one to suggest both Mom/the worst claim, which given town!the worst sounds like a "hey any chance you're a juicier nk target than Shoshin/how can our team avoid your power?"

Finally, though Blackvoid ostensibly has Mom as her scummiest read, followed by errantparabola, then me, then tw, he says this in his last post of D2: "@Rask, I'm going to do an ISO of both Momrangal and TheWorst before putting down a vote but I'm actually leaning towards TheWorst at this point. Is there anything meta-wise I should know that makes him less likely to be scum?"

I'm kinda hoping it's just the worst and Not_Mafia because that's much easier to make happen but I think there should be a lot more eyes on this slot

[Irrelephant11]

Oh also Mom never said a word about BV

[Irrelephant11]

Same question to Irrelephant if you have read any.

Only whatever other players have referenced here - I followed links and skimmed those things, but idk which games they were

[Irrelephant11]

So I had found it interesting that when I suggested BV/skitter associations they immediately started chatting in thread, so I went back to look at them side-by-side and, well, I definitely don't think skitter is scum while BV is town, though the opposite might be true and BV is pocketing skitter, and there is still a chance of s/s or t/t, but

anyway

all of that to say I find this to be a pretty big towntell from Skitter

{irrelephant, keyser} - upon a mom townflip keyser goes way down

I don't think scum ever says this in the context of the list of reads she was sharing. She had me and Keyser pretty low here, and at least two town players (me and shoshin) were scumreading Keyser outright. I think scum definitely might put Keyser near the bottom of the list like she does here, but scum!Skitter doesn't think to set up an if-then scenario where Keyser

only becomes easier to lynch upon the green flip of her scumpartner

. Hm. This is hard to put into words.

Basically, scum!skitter doesn't add the "upon a Mom townflip Keyser goes way down" *knowing* there's no such thing as a Mom townflip, unless she has incentive to help her scumpartner Keyser, which tbh I actually haven't looked at the two of them together but intuition says a mom/skitter/keyser team is silly. I guess I'll go double check though if I'm gonna use this to be nearly certain skitter is town

pedit: wow there's a lot to talk about in the pedit.

[Irrelephant11]

the worst probably won't be online for awhile, regardless of where he lives in Australia it's between 5-7 AM there.

I'm interested in hearing clearer thoughts from EP

[Irrelephant11]

If he’s in my time zone, he’s probably on his way home from work like me

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah wait what?

[Irrelephant11]

Hey the worst! Why does EP hate you?

[Irrelephant11]

Okay, we talked about BlackVoid and NM and you a lot, with some other stuff in there

Do you have a Guilty on someone?

[Irrelephant11]

What does TW-Errant’s lack of scum association have to do with NM being scum? Are TW and Errant your only other two scum possibilities?

[Irrelephant11]

ow, that hurt.

Are you just waiting for someone to help you out of the role claim mess you’re in? Or for BV to respond to what EP has said? Or like, what’s left for you to wait for, that you’re not posting more game advancing content?

[Irrelephant11]

i mean i guess if that's the best we're going to get from you ...

i'm going to be v/la this whole weekend so i guess i'll be waiting a while

i feel like i ought to be voting somewhere

VOTE: irrelephant

i think is where i want to go for now

do tell!

Also you're real paranoid that Nauci is pocketing you but surprisingly certain that BV isn't, and is just town (as indicated by your casual and friendly willingness to go back and forth with ideas and questions this game day). Why is that?


I don't like how BV is defending both NM and tw without voting anybody, and while completely ignoring the worst's implication that he has some sort of result on him. I get the feeling tw is waiting for BV's response and I think his lack of response is actually telling.

Nauci you asked me last game day for BV reads and I've pretty much provided them today, now back to you, how are you feeling about BV and why? Pick a non-null stance if you can please, even if you're not 100% sure about it

pedit: I can and will get on board with that, at least for now. VOTE: blackvoid

[Irrelephant11]

I'm defending Not_Mafia for good reasons. You haven't commented on those reasons. You're throwing shade AT the fact that I'm defending him to try to make me look suspicious but haven't actually engaged me on WHY I'm defending him. I'm unsure on TheWorst. I'm still thinking it over. Where did he claim to have a result on me? I'm pretty sure he's not waiting for any response from me. He's never tried to honestly engage me so far besides silly responses like "lol" or "I hate walls."

Responding in backwards order:
-EP has made it very clear that the worst set out to investigate you somehow
--the worst started the day with something like "ooOOOooOOoo I had a good night last night~~~"
---You have said nothing about this despite it being like the biggest news

-Your reasons are (tell me if I'm misrepping/missing something):
--"I feel like he wouldn't quickhammer in a way that's suboptimal for his team [like hammering before claims]."
---If NM is scum, he rescued Mom from having to fakeclaim in a way that could suggest something about the setup and/or she was just gonna claim vt; also, *everyone* knew tw was crumbing PR, so what would NM have to gain from waiting? rhetorical question; nothing.
--"Momra reluctantly backed off of her Invisibility push after Shoshin pushed her hard... suggests that Not_Mafia is town."
---Meh, if Mom is on a team with Invis/NM her goal was not likely ever to actually lynch him, so Mom gets townpoints for herself for having her reads progress & townpoints for Invisslot from Shoshin by letting Shoshin defending it. I don't see what about this suggests town NM,

except

for their vote parking that at I included in the vca at the beginning of the day that *you found ridiculous* ("ridiculous" being a quote) and then didn't respond to it when I went in depth as you requested. Honestly I'm not sure what there is to townread about you rn, anyone who has you +null is confusing to me (even as you're not aligned with tw imo, so we'll see how that bears out)

Also you not voting as town sounds like a personal problem that I'll let you fix on your own

If me, skitter, Bernie, and Gustavo can all trust each other, the odds of this game being a town win go way up.

L O L

sticking your name in with the three most widely townread players is hilarious and no one can tell me otherwise

@Bernie what do you think about blackvoid?

[Irrelephant11]

1. You can find it hilarious all you like but I have a pretty hard time seeing any of those three as scum and I also have a hard time getting a good townread out of the remaining players because none of you have thought processes that I can easily follow.

If NM is scum, he rescued Mom from having to fakeclaim in a way that could suggest something about the setup and/or she was just gonna claim vt; also, *everyone* knew tw was crumbing PR, so what would NM have to gain from waiting? rhetorical question; nothing.

2. This is actually not true. If Momrangal didn't want to give away anything about the scum roles, she could have fake-claimed a role that gives us no information. Why on earth would N_M "rescue" Momrangal from fake-claiming? The whole point when you're run up as scum is to either prevent your lynch that day or draw out a counterclaim by fake-claiming. Scum very, very rarely ever claim VT at L-1 and that's a pretty bad move. If he let Momrangal fake-claim, and attention turned towards TheWorst, he would at least have another solid claim. Then it would be a toss-up which one is less believable.

3. Can you quote where exactly either Errant or TheWorst said that TheWorst had a result on me?

Okay re:your reads, but like, it's a scummy way to present yourself as on par with those three players ("

us

four can win it!")

Regardless, NM following his town meta and quickhammering gets him towncred (look at you, giving him towncred rn) when the lynch was inevitable anyway

Yes:

Okay:

N1: I neighborized worst
D2: The thread was made.
N2: The thread was unlocked.

Post order (we joked around a lot, those things are omitted. and posts are heavily paraphrased for obv reasons)

EP: I know youre a PR
EP: What are your reads, do you still scumread Nauci & Skitter
TW: Nauci & Skitter are probably partners with mom, i'm not surprised at the flip
TW: I'm probably going to be looking at BV tonight
EP: So you're a cop? why don't you investigate one of your scumreads
TW: It makes more sense to investigate at the top of the lynchpool <-- (basically claiming cop or something simiilar??)
TW: BV is a nullread and most likely wont be night killed
EP: I still dont think it makes sense not to investigate a scumread
TW: I'd always choose someone like this regardless of who i scumread
EP: did you have a result on N1
TW: maybe you'll find out eventually
EP: Why not investigate me instead of BV
TW: no thanks

Also 2655 and I guess you somehow missed

Wow so TW has a guilty on BV?

[Irrelephant11]

No

[Irrelephant11]

Yes it is scummy because if three town players form a townbloc with a scum player, it becomes v v v hard for town to lynch scum. I feel like this is obvious??

Re:skated over
My point there was "he saved mom the trouble of coming up with fakeclaim (perhaps he knew she would be unavailable to do so anyway), or if she was going to claim vt anyway then he knew that and could just hammer for towncred"
I see that your point also includes "well why not wait for Mom to fakeclaim and then out tw's cc?" to which my response is both "he already knew tw was pr" and "why would tw counterclaim mom's random probably-unrelated-to-his-pr fakeclaim?"
I know you're the only one giving him towncred, and I think you should stop doing that. His actions don't deserve towncred because waiting for a claim doesn't help him as scum, and lolhammering is what he always does as his NAI meta. The only reason I can see to give him towncred is that you somehow know he's town, or based on my vca, which

you

are now skating over how you thought it was ridiculous and still haven't responded to the expanded version you asked for

@all let me know if this tunneling is becoming unhelpful, but I don't want to let up especially since we're probably gonna get some info on BV later so this becomes useful either way (by either cementing tw's result or making it look questionable)

[Irrelephant11]

Okay, sure, NM voting for Mom is townier than NM staying away from Mom's lynch, in the situation that Mom was indeed going to claim in those last 36 hours, which she probably wouldn't because she has mentioned many times how busy she is on weekends. Maybe this is a point in NM's favor. Maybe.

I'm not setting you up for anything, I'm trying to discern why you're so confident in this townread of Not_Mafia in a gamestate that leaves him in everyone else's PoE.

What do you think of my vca? What do you think of Mom and Invis sitting on each other beginning of D1?

[Irrelephant11]

...hm. That all sounds reasonable.

I still think Mom's approach to your slot was s/s indicative, though, and I really don't like that you tried to insert yourself into an unrequited townbloc.

Really hoping tw doesn't wait for the weekend. I'm trying to make things happen without him sharing, but it feels like 1/2-2/3 of the playerlist is mostly waiting for tw before we *really* play D3

[Irrelephant11]

tw and nm, and keyser is null for now

[Irrelephant11]

I wanted you to tell me why my vca suggesting NM is less likely to be scum is ridiculous but your townread of Not_Mafia isn’t. It was basically a test of how well you’ve been reading (especially my posts). Seems like the answer is “not super well”, which is frustrating but makes some of the things you’ve said that I find scummy less AI.

Finding me+Nauci as the scumteam because Nauci said I would attack strong town players as scum is silly

My last stance on a Skitter is that she is my third towniest read, unless you happen to be scum. So I’m definitely not trying to discredit her, but thanks for the misrep. I’m not even super scumreading you I’m just trying to PoE from a potential town!tw and put pressure where that leads me.

Nauci might be trying to pocket me today I guess. I was starting to townread her but I’m learning in this and other games that I’m easily influenced by others’ reads of me. Hm.

Interested in where Keyser is going to go

[Irrelephant11]

You say “you” but you’re not voting anyone? Do you mean me?

[Irrelephant11]

You say “you” but you’re not voting anyone? Do you mean me?

whoops that was directed at bv

i'm voting you tho

So you are

[Irrelephant11]

Out the result duck

[Irrelephant11]

I don’t know what’s happening yet but ftr I love that tw is probably scum and somehow D2 we all just knew it was either Mom or tw

On the other hand that does sound a little unrealistic

But Bernie is town tho

Well I’m sure this’ll play out let me know if y’all need my vote

[Irrelephant11]

Assuming scum!tw, I'm at:

Town Bernie
Town ep
Town me
Town Gustavo

Very likely town bv

So the last scum is in {nm, keyser, irrelephant, nauci}

And we can just lynch through I think

Is town you a mechanical clear or like just from your POV

If it’s mechanical I’m fine with this plan I think

[Irrelephant11]

So odd night doctor even night gunsmith sounds nice in theory

And in isolation tw’s claim is actually pretty believable

But the fact that it contradicts two other claims means it has to be scum??

Unless like Bernie is scum gunnerizer (something I’m making up rn) and predicted town tw would gunsmith town BV and interferes with the result???

With like scum neighborizer EP as partner?????

?????????????

Pedit: Skitter that argument was stronger before you brought up 30,000,000,000 times

[Irrelephant11]

Are y’all having fun because I’m having fun

so much DRAMA

[Irrelephant11]

Wait before we lynch anyone are there any realistic scum PRs that could be messing with our preconceptions here? Like I know gunnerizer isn’t a thing but,

?

[Irrelephant11]

“The amount of effort I've put into this game is probably more than the rest of my games combined at this point, and I've basically ruined my ability to play scum. The shit I do for y'all!”

Yeah eventually this spewed your alignment (I got it D3 )

Great

VOTE: Blackvoid AKA the WIFOMiest slot in the game

[Irrelephant11]

I'm town let's lynch someone else

Who?

Irrelephant maybe

Someone put a vote on NM so I can do the lolhammer

Actually though the reason I want to lynch BV before NM is because if BV flips bulletproof, Gustavo is no longer mechanically mostly-cleared. Lynching BV and being wrong is more helpful/informative than lynching NM and being wrong.

I also want to add to the case against BV that he was really certain that EITHER Mom OR the worst was scum, and spent a while deciding which one D2. This could be coming from the third partner trying to clear the better-playing scum by lynching the worst (pun intended).

[Irrelephant11]

Who said anything about Nauci?

Nauci investigated him......

Ninja ninja bo binja
Banana fana fo finja
Fee fi mo minja

A ninja wouldn't come up green when investigated by a neopolitan

[Irrelephant11]

Who said anything about Nauci?

Nauci investigated him......

Ninja ninja bo binja
Banana fana fo finja
Fee fi mo minja

A ninja wouldn't come up green when investigated by a neopolitan

You think I'm paying attention?

Well, no, honestly. Hence the eye roll

[Irrelephant11]

wait but Keyser we should talk about out options

we are the two cleariest clears I believe

[Irrelephant11]

*our options

Thoughts on BV going before NM to determine the veracity of his claim?

Also just for me for reference
BlackVoid - 1sbp?
Nauci - neo, 90% clear
Irrelephant11 - Clear
skitter30 - Greeenest by play
Not_Mafia - ???
Gustavo - N1 target?
errantparabola - neighborizer?
Keyser Soze - Clear

[Irrelephant11]

I mean if NM somehow sees with astounding clarity that BV was telling the truth, was the N1 target, and that Gustavo has been coasting on Shoshin's semi-Gus-clear, good on him I guess

I agree it doesn't seem very likely

[Irrelephant11]

I mean, if Nauci is scum (which is really just not the case, aside from my strong townread on her this would be an incredibly bizarre long-game play for scum that makes it harder for her to win), that still would clear me and Keyser because there's only one scum left.

pedit: pretty sure NM's gonna be stubborn and stick with Gustavo, so I think we can just decide who to lynch.

I'm thinking BV > NM > Gustavo

I assume nightkills would be Nauci > Me/Keyser > Town loss

pedit2: I'm gonna start by looking at mom/tw/gustavo interactions

[Irrelephant11]

Because if we lynch BV and he flips 1sbp, you (gustavo) are no longer cleared. And since we have to wait a while for BV to come back, and NM is being pretty stubborn, getting a closer look at you is another helpful option

[Irrelephant11]

Mechanically, that could no longer be true. If he flips 1sbp, he becomes ~equally likely to have been the N1 target, except by virtue of flipping green he'd be

more

likely in retrospect than you to have been the target.

[Irrelephant11]

it’s worth noting, actually, that gemini and i stated in a pm before this game that we were really looking forward to being the same faction again this game; so her replacing out might actually be a scum-indicative replace-out, especially with her doing it after she’s put under pressure for the first time. i prompted her to sign up for this game, and we were looking forward to playing with each other again.

but at the same time, this could also mean she’s got things going on irl, that she has general disinterest, or other things. so i want to give her replacement a chance first before i jump to any conclusions from this, but also want to throw it out there since i am town this game and had already sensed that she might be scum. sure enough, it’s a scumlean for me until further content develops, though


@irrelephant, who are you townreading? i would like to see you hard commit there, as you have yet to.

my answer: well, i’m already hard townreading keyser soze and shoshin, and i have voiced a slight town indication that needs further content to sort it out on gamma emerald. the last one is admittedly not a particularly strong read though, so i wouldn’t exactly trust it if i am lynched today and flip town, but i would trust the other two. also stated a gut townread on mathdino, another one i wouldn’t exactly trust, but my gut rules for now...

@skitter: what’s your reason to believe shoshin is scum playing super aggressively?

my answer: i have no reason to believe this myself, but would like to hear more about this. i definitely feel skitter is more likely of the 2 to be scum, because while they were aggressive, their gameplay so far is much easier imho for scum to duplicate.

Stun, can you explain your transition from suspecting me to a townlean to hardtown?

your content seems hard for scum to duplicate; little-to-no scum incentive for scum to play like you have so far, especially on d1. your aggressive act making a splash early on, your willingness to reconsider perspectives, etc.

i mean the list goes on and on, and it makes me question why would you be scum in this game? to which, i can’t gather an answer to

who can possibly townread momrangal right now? totally nai imho, and way too quick to jump to a townread there. convince me

@stungun I like Shoshin, you, Bernie, Mom, and Mathdino for town so far, in that order. None of them are particularly strong because few players have said a ton. I was voting you for pressure because it seemed to rattle you, but the rattling had a towniness as it went on.

I feel like conventional wisdom says Keyser is playing in a towny way, but none of the things he’s saying actually feel genuine? To put it another way, his play fits in a town box, but almost seems too perfectly shaped for it. I’m not saying he’s scummy yet, just that I haven’t seen enough to sort.

Pedit: math what are you saying about me there?

4 of those reads are fair, but what about momrangal’s 5 posts suggests town to you?

same with shoshin, what about momrangal rings you as town?

The most townie thing I'm seeing from you is that you keep referencing your mindset from this other towngame and are like drawing parralels from your play there to your play here.

This is what I'm liking about stungun

I might kinda follow you on the Stungun read.

Because at the time it was mathdino's slot and he is regularly the N1 NK if he's town (I think? He has said so about himself at some point at least)

I'm finding a not-small set of weird interactions regarding stun/gus and the flipped scum, but that's all they really add up to: weird. This post will prolly take me a while though because am distracted

[Irrelephant11]

lol whoops, enjoy those, didn't mean to post them yet xD

[Irrelephant11]

I mean, okay. If BV flips town though he's obviously more likely to have been the N1 NK than you, who hasn't yet flipped. just by virtue of having flipped, you know?

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah, agreed, actually. Mom and tw were both pretty confident about Stungun's towniness, too, which I think one of them would be a little more hesitant if he was actually scum (hedging their bets in case of eventual stun-lynch). Gustavo is town.

Do we need to worry about errant?

[Irrelephant11]

Also sorry for scumreading you for so long Keyser, in retrospect it was ~75% playstyle, and hopefully it won't happen again!

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah I just skimmed his ISO and he basically comes in shooting shots at Mom and tw, it's prolly not errant

VOTE: Not_Mafia
This is L-1, NM I dare you to hammer

[Irrelephant11]

Yikes at the scumteam this game. 2/5 replace outs were scum (99% sure, anyway), which is pretty uncool for having a game. Killer town, though, lots of hard work put in to narrow things down this much, go team!

[Irrelephant11]

ooh good point

VOTE: Blackvoid

[Irrelephant11]

massclaim would be good imo

If setup speculation is part of our thought process here

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah I mean we might just win the game lynching Not_Mafia, and I'm okay with doing that now. If he flips green is where it gets interesting, but not till then. Idk why wait for NM's lynch at this point?

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Irrelephant11]

So my head says scum are Not_Mafia, Mom, and the worst, but my heart says it's Gustavo, Nauci, and mathdino.

nice

[Irrelephant11]

No, L-1 pretty sure. We were both on-wagon earlier, then left for BV, then back on

[Irrelephant11]

There may be a reason why he voted Irrelephant11 and Gustavo.............

???

[Irrelephant11]

skitter it might be BV but his wanting to push NM through here is towny - scumplay is to prepare another lynch for when this flips green.

[Irrelephant11]

though BV if you wouldn't mind responding to Nauci's case

[Irrelephant11]

Also as another town point for Nauci (re: anyone who thinks she's a potential lynch) - she knew Keyser and I were not just town, but specifically VT. In a game that was missing a town PR claim, that's a dangerous guess. Unless she's scum roleblocker-and-rolecop

[Irrelephant11]

Anddd that's hammer

Gg NM?

[Irrelephant11]

yeah it's not hammer but was hoping for claim, oh well

[Irrelephant11]

uh huh

[Irrelephant11]

yes I know.

[Irrelephant11]

blackvoid are you willing to eat a lynch to help us sort gustavo/errant?

[Irrelephant11]

I have already explained how your mechanical clear is no longer a mechanical clear if BV really is 1sbp. Similarly, given tw's tendency to PR gambit, flipping BV would make me re-examine EP's treatment of tw's slot. Regardless, NM is in the lynchpool, but both of your slots are much greener

only because

I don't know that BV's slot is green.

BV?

[Irrelephant11]

If errant/gustavo are scum, the only way town will win is if I can hold down my slot and prevent it from getting lynched.

This isn't true.
We have 3 lynches for you/errant/gustavo/nm. I feel v comfortable using the first lynch on your slot, because it's surrounded by so, so much tw WIFOM.
It doesn't actually sort gustavo/errant that much, I just wanted you to answer the question.

Hm. Whatever let's just lynch NM > BV > good luck to whoever has to pick between gustavo and errant (probably skitter)

Others' thoughts?

[Irrelephant11]

Right but I don't think it's skitter, so *shrug*
I don't really think it's you or errant either which is why I'm fine with just having lynchtime

[Irrelephant11]

It could still have been Gustavo. You just have to read and figure him out.

What do you think?

[Irrelephant11]

I think I'm just gonna step out for a while, I think town has this game won, I'll be back later and if we decide to lynch BV I'll happily move to that wagon

Thanks Nauci for being a great neo

Spoiler:

[Irrelephant11]

dumb. a lot of things pointed to NM imo. Welp, I'll be around later today to join this fun search committee.

@all, who (other than you) has the most interesting interactions with Mom and tw's slots? This can include PR claims and stuff, but especially before those all happened?

[Irrelephant11]

EP and Gustavo can you claim flavor too

[Irrelephant11]

any direct connection given between being JQA and being a neighborizer?

[Irrelephant11]

oh scum prolly has fakeclaims anyway huh

[Irrelephant11]

skitter did you share flavor yet, just to be thorough

[Irrelephant11]

I don’t see anything in the role information of flipped scum to suggest they had fake claims though.

mod were scum given fake claims?

Hmmm intentional "townslip" or townslip... hmmmmmmm

[Irrelephant11]

Without having done much deep reading yet my impulse is to lynch BV or Gustavo. Interesting that the flavor matches the claim for BV and EP (though why is BV

1

SBP if he survived two assassinations? Might be something?)

I'll probably try to look for scum!EP and scum!skitter first to make sure I'm not excluding people just off feel

[Irrelephant11]

do you think claims matching flavor is?

[Irrelephant11]

I'm coming around to town on stungun

Math is sketchy.

Keyset is a slight townlean, but not as strongly as a lot of people are making him out to be.

I'm re-evaliating shoshin; still dont like her RVS but I like her more recent posts (esp 273 iirc)

I dont really like momrangel or gamma.

I dont think I have strong opinions on anyone else atm. Or at least, if I do, it's not coming to mind.

I'm not sure if scum!you jumps into the thread confidently voting someone that is being largely townread.

duckling, you're kinda gut-pinging me as scum btw

I'm kinda tending towards there actually tbh.

I really didn't like how he approached the gemini slot given newbie 1872.

I'm kinda waiting for him to talk about it and I'm willing to give him some time for a benefit-of-doubt thing.

I agree that the gimmick may be what's weird about him right now, but continuing that when people have said it's making him hard to read is :/

He was scum in a hydra in open 710 but he repped out pretty early after his partner repped out

You expect me to lead when I still gotta read
I don't see a need, laying low is my creed

math when you read I do want you to elaborate on your gemini thoughts

keyser where you at? This is a strugggggle

Like they all make similar amounts of sense as the remaining scum

[Irrelephant11]

whoops, forgot I had those in my quotewall but, well there's some stuff from skitter about mom and tw. I think ithese quotes are more likely to come from town!skitter, so there's that. Unless her plan from D1 was to bus them both and never let up, which is an option but a weird one. Also 303 is in the middle of a conversation between skitter and tw that couuuuuld be theater but I don't *think* it is?

[Irrelephant11]

skitter you've expressed a lot of paranoia about getting pocketed by BV, I'd love it if you could examine through re-read how likely you think that is

[Irrelephant11]

mmm the more I re-read the more I'm led to lynch BV

but also my re-read has largely not included EP? so that's concerning. I guess just by happenstance/his semi-lurky state, that I need to go examine further.

It's nice being confirmed town really makes this less stressful

[Irrelephant11]

I'm FDR, and my quotes are surprisingly fitting for the game of mafia :thumbs up:

[Irrelephant11]

On my phone cause campus internet’s down. I will respond to things later
Here is a very rough, but well ordered set, of my reads


Bernie
Nauci
Irre
Keyser
Shoshin
Gustavo
BlackVoid
Skitter
NotMafia
Worst
Mom

i cant wait for mom and the worst to both inexplicably flip town and for us to lose the game

a) being waffle-y about the gamma wagon and i still don't know why you think i took that out of context

b) there's a lot of mysterious townreads on you that i can't get anyone to explain satisfactorily

c) you were gamma's counterwagon and i couldn't get the wagon to have more than three votes - it faced an *insane* amount of resistance and nobody could explain why

d) you've done like nothing townie the whole game

Okay, so here's what I'm thinkin about Mom.
a) isn't scummy. b) isn't scummy.
c) is a salient point here, I think? d) i agree with a lot, ESPECIALLY in context with her response to pressure today

But this reaction is kind of evasive and somewhat talking around the point or of making judgment.

Like, mom cited a case that was made, presumably, a long time ago, rather than hashing something out again, like I would expect someone who was really convinced of a scumread that they'd held for a long time. And I agree that it gives me a weird gut feeling but ?? ??

Also WTF everyone left that wagon and it was between stay as a single vote or hop on to duck who I've had the most reason to believe as mom partner so far this game.

based on how the wagons have played out (today specifically), I would be surprised if they were partners. But I think I'd be interested in seeing someone like Nauci analyse it. I guess consider me a willing vote on either for now

This pinged. This is a game of perceptions and to do well as town, you need to read people correctly and be read correctly.
...

I actually don't like anything you've written under the heading of yourself. Why give bullet-points when you don't like self-meta?

this is the most incorrect thing that BlackVoid has said so far I think
Other than that I think his catchup has mildly positively impacted the game but no read yet

Nauci's Irrelephant push in 702 and 704 felt genuine. The more I think about it, I actually don't think that after a great game as scum together, Nauci's strategy in the next game she plays with Irrelephant is to keep pushing for his mislynch on the basis of his good scumplay.....

I agree with this wholeheartedly (assuming that I accept the premise, and theres no reason i wouldnt) i think with the events of this day I'd tend towards putting nauci as more confidently town and irrelephant as less town but still town

Why didn't you react to Nauci this way? Or even Errant? Both of whom make long posts in a similar way to BV?

holy shit guys.
I'm a longposter now. i'm never like this, but this game has just been so nice

It might not matter, but can you respond to my mom points and tell me why you have a TW preference.

I'll put some more weight behind this question and say that I think this matters a lot especially if there is exactly one scum between Mom and the worst, given the timing of irre's vote (it matters a lot less if it's 0 or 2)

there's *quite* a few signs pointing to partners despite this

do me a favor and give me the fast rundown on these?

Bernie, question:
a) are you a public alt? if so, who are you?
b) if not, have we played together? do you have an existing impression of me?

Not really thinking it's EP still

-if scum, does everything he can to help his partners get lynched
-seems to really enjoy being a part of the playerlist and having so many strong town players which is just a tone thing but I think it comes from town more than scum in this particular game

[Irrelephant11]

Gustavo you're confusing me. You've said a couple times something like "since it's either ep/bv and we have two lynches we almost definitely just win" and also "I should probably be one of the two lynches" and now "skitter might also be scum, I'm just not going to try if so". Those all contradict. Which do you mean to say?

[Irrelephant11]

Is BV still your #1 option. Irrelephant11?
I’ve got cold feet there now :/

Tell me if anything I wrote about his posts makes sense

mmmm unsure. I think EP has moved in front of Gustavo though?

I just am trying to think of the worst's gambit and what it means rn

[Irrelephant11]

in scum!BV world,

the worst claims a guilty on BV > BV gets lynched, flips red > We have one mafia left to find and the worst is semi-cleared if-and-only-if no other PRs find him out
~ or ~
the worst claims a guilty on BV > the worst gets lynched, flips red > We have one mafia left to find and BV isn't really cleared at all and has lots of attention on him

alternatively, in a town!BV world
the worst claims a guilty on BV > BV gets lynched, flips green > We have two mafia left to find but we know the worst is one of them, but meanwhile scum get an extra night kill that they were not otherwise guaranteed
~ or ~
the worst claims a guilty on BV > the worst gets lynched, flips red > We have one mafia left and are distracted by BV's slot for the rest of the game

Seems unlikely that the worst playing to his wincon intentionally chooses the former set of situations > points to town!BV

If skitter and BV can manage to clear each other with certainty I'm good with that. Then we lynch the other two and win?

[Irrelephant11]

I think EP has moved in front of Gustavo though?

On the other hand, there have been zero moments this game where I've been like "yeah Gustavo, I think the exact same as you" and that p much applied to stungun too (also I really only evre moved him above null because Shoshin semi-cleared him which doesn't apply if BV is town here), so maybe he's the next lynch

The stakes feel too low rn

VOTE: Gustavo

[Irrelephant11]

I want EP to provide deeper reads on Gustavo and BV but for the record I retract ~2/3 of my stungun townread, after finishing this game

Gustavo is now my fav lynch. I'm not trying to rush this game day but I'll leave my vote on whoever I'm leaning toward for now

[Irrelephant11]

3. Can you quote where exactly either Errant or TheWorst said that TheWorst had a result on me?

This ignorance/derp moment actually feels legit. Surely scum-BV would have been up to date with TW’s scum gambit to fake a guilty on his partner... or at least come prepared to fake some theatre?

I wasn't trying to make you paranoid of Nauci. I actually really nailed behaviors of Nauci's that came from an informed perspective. Her suspicion of me. Her read on Irrelephant. Her claiming that you were mindmelding with her while never trying to see eye to eye on those reads. I was wrong about why she was informed. But I really don't think I'd be capable of looking at the game so deeply that I'd spot legitimate informed-tells from townies as scum.

Both of these are actually really strong reasons to TR Blackvoid...

[Irrelephant11]

I'm coming around to town on stungun

Math is sketchy.

Keyset is a slight townlean, but not as strongly as a lot of people are making him out to be.

I'm re-evaliating shoshin; still dont like her RVS but I like her more recent posts (esp 273 iirc)

I dont really like momrangel or gamma.

I dont think I have strong opinions on anyone else atm. Or at least, if I do, it's not coming to mind.

I'm not sure if scum!you jumps into the thread confidently voting someone that is being largely townread.

duckling, you're kinda gut-pinging me as scum btw

I'm kinda tending towards there actually tbh.

I really didn't like how he approached the gemini slot given newbie 1872.

I'm kinda waiting for him to talk about it and I'm willing to give him some time for a benefit-of-doubt thing.

I agree that the gimmick may be what's weird about him right now, but continuing that when people have said it's making him hard to read is :/

He was scum in a hydra in open 710 but he repped out pretty early after his partner repped out

You expect me to lead when I still gotta read
I don't see a need, laying low is my creed

math when you read I do want you to elaborate on your gemini thoughts

1) He's good at distancing
2) Avoiding the actual lynch

[Irrelephant11]

wow I really have no idea how any of those skitter quotes got there

[Irrelephant11]

I'm finding his lack of motivation here pretty in line with my scumread too honestly. Like I think scum caught in a "we're gonna lynch 2/3, one of whom is defo scum" usually has

less

survivalism than, say, scum in lylo who only needs one mislynch. His "I'm not going to fight my lynch" doesn't sound towny, it just sounds true.

pedit: yeah that shoshin push happened, it's not really central to my read on Gustavo either way. I think he always does that tunnel probably, regardless of alignment (and perhaps his insistence it was a good tunnel even now is a way of saying that)

with this,

V/LA for the weekend

[Irrelephant11]

My vote is where I'd like it to be, I'll be able to talk more tomorrow if need be

[Irrelephant11]

Thanks brassherald! You're the best!

I'm almost willing to do BV first here, just to clarify if he is indeed bulletproof who was probably shot before killing Gustavo
But like, the other way around works too I think

Also, I think Gustavo's "just lynch me" statements means he probably

is

the best choice to lynch for today? If his motivation is gone, he's either stuck scum or a townie who probably shouldn't come to lylo. I'd rather have ep and bv to choose from tomorrow, with skitter more able to evaluate the possibility of bv pocketing her. and if it's Gustavo idk if I trust Keyser to figure that out atm (sorry Keyser but you keep saying "this thing Gustavo did is scummy so he must be town" - your confbias is showing

These are good points from Gustavo though (like three posts up): "Tomorrow, Ask yourself why the worst didn’t want to change his investigation target. Why did it have to be BV? Also bv seemed sure he was the one investigated before the worst outed himself. Lastly how would you react when your partner was attempting a risky gambit? Would you defend him or cast shade on him?"

At this point I think Gustavo and blackvoid are both good lynches, ep and skitter are not. I think I'm ready to bet the game on it.

ep I'm reading your long post now and one thing you include is "I don't think scum have fakeclaims?" when in fact they do

[Irrelephant11]

This post is directed to Irre, who asked me to express more detailed thoughts on Gustavo and BV. You're welcome. don't say i didn't do anything for you LMAO

thank

[Irrelephant11]

This has everything to do with the game basically being solved from my POV. I’m town so it’s either bv or errant.

You keep using the word "solved" when in fact we have two lynches for three potential scum. I understand that from your pov there's only two potential scum, but that's only a "solve" if you stay alive. Instead, you are arguing for your own lynch. So, why keep saying the game is solved?

pedit: true, but I guess you flipping vt answers "does BV's claim make Gustavo more or less scummy?" by just answering if you're scum anyway

But you're right that flipping BV first is a slightly higher-info lynch

[Irrelephant11]

a wave of paranoia is coming at me and I'm wondering if the fact that it's hard to fully scumread any of the three choices is because skitter is scum

lemme go check again that she is/isn't

[Irrelephant11]

r u ok

[Irrelephant11]

mm I'm fine sheeping BV on Skitter. He's either town who's almost definitely right or scum who's definitely right

I do wish skitter had the time/energy to clarify if she thought BV was pocketing her y/n. I had thought once or twice that he probably was when I scumread him more

It's just BV if we get to mylo, I'm ready for the lynch whenever keyser/skitter (if skitter had more to say?) are

[Irrelephant11]

Gustavo is lynched
brassherald comes out and says that we've.... just been.... fucking

pranked!!!

it was all a joke! look the cameras are here and here! you should have seen the look on your face! there were no more scum after all!
turns out that it was a insanely townsided 11 v 2!
We all get nominated for kodak moment, have a good laugh about it, brassherald gets banned from modding

[Irrelephant11]

hmmm town!BV actually getting cold feet
Or scum!BV saving the easier mislynch for LYLO

[Irrelephant11]

I'm still just ready to lynch Gustavo.

Some things from his ISO

I told yall mom was scum

This is how he started D2, and is also false. D1 he actually said lotsa times that Mom's wagon was bad, his gut said she'd flip town, etc. And yet he tries to get towncred for her lynch
Eh, this has probably been covered.

But much more excitingly, a real life scumslip!

You voted Momrangal at a point where it was almost assured that she was the lynch of the day with a small chance that it could be TheWorst.

And mom was your top scumnread and you didn’t vote

her

at all. You instead say you are thinking of voting the worst instead.

Didn’t want to bus the encryptor?

Mom never got to post because I put

her

at l-1 letting NM hammer

Now from the POV of bv being scum. Asking 2 people to claim, mom who’s l-2 and is scum PR, him mentioning we need both claims in case one claims a PR is kind of suspicious

Mathprobtown but I'm probably gonna flip back and forth there

Why do you think mom said

she’s

going to flip back and forth on math?

Mom is the only woman in this game Gustavo has never misgendered! Y'all might not put stock in it, but I do. VOTE: Gustavo

harder

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah that helps me remember it too but fwiw actually "Momrangal" which isn't obviously gendered and Nauci's avi is literally the face of a woman and iirc he misgendered her along with shoshin and skitter

anyway like I said it's not strong enough that any of you will likely sheep me about it but it is strong enough that it adds to what is already my scummiest read

[Irrelephant11]

Nauci's avi is literally the face of a woman and iirc he misgendered her

I checked and this is true

[Irrelephant11]

lol I don't think it's AI either I mostly wanted to point it out before lynch because then I can say I told you so

It's been so long since I considered the possibility that it's EP. Sigh. Is that where we're moving, collectively?

[Irrelephant11]

Oh frick that's hammer. gg?

[Irrelephant11]

one day

one day I will pretend it's a hammer and will get a confesh

Oh well it's fun to keep trying

[Irrelephant11]

i really really don't think it's ep

and this is townie af from gustavo too

idk maybe it's just bv?

Well it's not me.

oh well that simplifies things

[Irrelephant11]

mmm I mean one nitpicky thing is that neighborizer is confirmable when you don't neighborize scum

[Irrelephant11]

Oh I see what you mean, true I guess. But still not even that is confirmed here whereas when you neighborize town you can at least believe the role is real

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah I had the same fear.

It's hard how at some point we have to just do a lynch... I don't think there are any scum here. sigh

[Irrelephant11]

I still think it's just Gustavo. Sorry, I settled like 5-10 pages back that he's my preferred lynch and unless Keyser + skitter really want a different lynch super badly he's probably just the choice here.

[Irrelephant11]

good thing I'm cleared

my job rn is to provide ordered reads, since keyser might be the one to do lylo

[Irrelephant11]

Gustavo feels like scum angry for being caught for all the wrong reasons

also I'm not a clown, thanks <3

[Irrelephant11]

EP no you rock don't quit
Do you think maybe his refusal is AI?

Gustavo I just explained that I have to give my preferred lynch order to help Keyser
Nauci did the same thing, it's just good town play
Of course I'll re-evaluate if I'm in lylo but if not Keyser needs every person he knows is town to share their reads before dying


pedit: not sure why you enjoy playing mafia, seems like it's just an exercise for you in expressing anger at friendly people (maybe that's why), but regardless if this is your appeal for me to townread you it won't work, regardless of your alignment. Hope your day includes better things than being stuck playing a game with me, the idiot clown

[Irrelephant11]

EP I know you're town, and not just for the simplistic reasons BV says. I was just about to work on explaining it

Sorry if this game isn't fun for you any more, I know the feeling

pedit: Gustavo I'm done being insulted by you. I'll continue to engage with you when you have a post to respond to that doesn't try to hurt my feelings, thanks.

pedit2: I don't know what to add, EP, other than I'm sorry this is rough for you rn

[Irrelephant11]

ok, sorry I hurt your feelings
I explained already that I don't actually find that more than .0001% AI, I just wanted to point it out for post game giggles since I think you're scum

[Irrelephant11]

whoops these are in backwards order enjoy

rip okay irre was probably fishing for a scumclaim sorry

not sure scum thinks to say this

Normally I’d be pretty pissed that somehow Nauci still finds a reason to inexplicably throw shade on me but with this many clears I’m fine with eating a lynch

this was last game day, feels honest and like he's ready to help PoE by dying. I've been here and said basically this same thing

VOTE: the worst
you had me panicked for nothing dude

This is EP's response to when Bernie suggests tw is outing EP's result, a perfect out that would have saved both scum from being lynched. Though hm, I guess when Bv flipped green they'd both have answering to do. Still, immediately voting the worst doesn't seem like the first instinct in that fast play. I know this is from around the claims which I'm supposed to be ignoring but this is more about his overarching natural towny feel this game

The worst sorry if im coming across as harsh and i dont want you to be angry or upset w me or the game
But please understand that where im coming from and how im seeing things it just doesnt make sense why you need to catch up to claim a result

Weird scum theater. Sort of pre-empting any angry!tw AtE, hard to see this as coming from scum

If BV is scum and EP is scum... why didn’t EP NK TW? Thus, if BV is scum, EP is likely town.

I just think IN GENERAL it doesnt make sense that the worst claims to me at all unless he's hard townreading me. If that's the case, that's the first i've ever heard of it.

A great point that also doesn't hard throw tw under the bus like I'd expect bussing partners to do

I tried to make an updated version of my reads list and ended up being dissatisfied with both the new one and thinking about it, the old one. So here is this abomination... it looked better in my head



also skitter should be higher it's just crowded there

I mean sure you can read this as NAI if you want but any time someone puts in extra effort in both a pro-town AND light-hearted way I townread it. It's hard to do pro-town things and look like you're having fun doing it as scum

i cant wait for mom and the worst to both inexplicably flip town and for us to lose the game

Bizarre coming from someone with information. Perfectly natural coming from a towny watching wagons move from tw to mom and back again.

That's disappointing, because I was pretty confident that if I made mathdino metadive me he'd see i'm obvious town :>
I'll be here soon.

Not sure scum would both think of this and be confident enough to say it

I'm really pumped to start playing this game in earnest, actually. Everyone seems to have a good sense for things here.

Roughly speaking, my reads fall like so:

Town:
Keyser, Bernie, Irre are varying degrees of town.
throw in the worst and Gustavo as hail-mary going out on a limb town.
Shoshin and Nauci are town with specific grains of salt.

The rest:
Dino, Gamma, Notmaf, Mom, skitter.

More reading to come later but bye for now!

I figured since you're the freshest person here I should ask you what you thought might have been missed

I'm always the freshest person here. So no rush.

No longer townreading worst.

Again, the way EP comes in with mom low in his reads and tw middle-ish, then the *next thing he does* is move tw down to the bottom too, is anti-associational 4d chess if scum


Hey it's skitter yes bring us sanity

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also can we all chillax?

Hammer time?

wowww this is bold from scum tho

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lol

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I mean we can do BV instead if you want

I agree that he seems to want you to scumread EP even as he says Gustavo is the lynch

I also don't know why one of the two blowups has to be fake

I think his associations with the flipped scum are very bad

I can't know anyone's alignment for sure until we flip someone

pedit: right that's the other side of the coin

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I think Gustavo wanting to be lynched might just be NAI? And D1, D2, D3 play all seem pretty scummy imo

It might be better to lynch Gustavo just because he wants to be lynched
Like if he's town here will we win lylo with him in it

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I'm talking about Bv in the third statement

But it's true about Gustavo too so that's the issue

I mean even if one of them is scum it might all still be genuine
I imagine having to survive two lynches is stressful and upsetting

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I mean, that's a lot of words in my mouth that I didn't put there

I think Stungun's game looks like scumgun
I think your play has never once made sense to me this game, which I recognize can be playstyle but in this my2lo situation where I townread other players more that is part of my read
I think town making compromises and scum acknowledging the loss of a partner with a vote look very similar

pedit: BV's associations toward the scum slots isn't terrible, but the other way around is

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Wow okay switching from "just kill me" to "let's hash out all your thoughts on the game" not sure how to read this tone switch

I linked to the newbie game stungun and I played together and for most of that game (including after my own death) I thought he was town. He had great anti-associatives with his partner, going so far as to be one of the first to really put pressure on them, and helping in their lynch. He references his own towniness in what felt like genuine ways, and overall was townread by most of the board. Those are all the exact same as what happened here. He also replaced out after gemini replaced out, which could speak to their desire to play together and stungun followed his friend out of the game when gemini was too busy to be scum or something. Idk ignore the replace out point

Your scumread of Shoshin (to this day), the way you insist other players "cooperate" with you and your reads while in large part not doing the same (except as you bring up, right before each lynch goes through), most of your reads and reasoning all game, honestly.

Obviously I think so
I just explained some of the reasons I townread EP (an over-arching town tone and multiple town choices in play) and we've all acknowledged why skitter isn't scum. I'm also willing to vote BV here so there's that


pedit: for the most part I don't think this looks like your scum game, no, but in this game we pinned down 2/3 scum in the first three lynches, so I wouldn't expect it to

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Sure, but it's a marked difference from your tone even 30 minutes ago. I'm trying to discern how AI that is. Also, you're welcome.

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the way you insist other players "cooperate" with you and your reads while in large part not doing the same (except as you bring up, right before each lynch goes through)

Ok you make an ok point here but as either alignment I would compromise to prevent an NL. Most people would.

So why do you use that as AI against me?

Your scumread of Shoshin (to this day),

If a player intentionally lies to shade you. Do you town read them?

I've learned that this sore subject makes you angry and leads to many posts that are unhelpful because they are NAI. I'm gonna skip this question

the way you insist other players "cooperate" with you and your reads while in large part not doing the same (except as you bring up, right before each lynch goes through)

Ok you make an ok point here but as either alignment I would compromise to prevent an NL. Most people would.

So why do you use that as AI against me?

I think it's scummy not because of the compromising, but because of the refusal most of the time to cooperate

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Sure, but it's a marked difference from your tone even 30 minutes ago. I'm trying to discern how AI that is. Also, you're welcome.

No it isn’t.

Okay. You can pick whatever words you want here. Some choices:

1) "hammer time?" and a list of three questions are different and I wonder if it's AI
2) Gustavo has wanted to end the day and wanted to keep talking at different points in the last couple hours, interesting
3) My favorite color is peach and Gustavo is a majestic giraffe

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Yep I'm re-reading to find them

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sorry at work and things got busier answers might have to happen later

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I am no longer interested in voting BV
I am somewhat interested in voting EP
I am still most interested in voting Gustavo

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I can do that, and will when someone gives intent to hammer. I think most of what should be said this game day has been said and I don't want to clutter the thread much more, unless keyser wants to talk in real time about our decision

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oh yeah my b

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forgot, I'll try to do that still

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Gamma, can you link some representative games of you as town/scum?

Honestly I have so many games of varying quality that it's kinda hard to do that without also omitting some element of my play
would you like one good and one bad of each?
also VOTE: Gustavo because at this point he rings more of scum who just doesn't give a shit if he's wrong rather than town who's tunneled.

VOTE: gamma

Since nobody wants to lynch sho, I’ll go here.

VOTE: Gamma

UNVOTE:

VOTE: gamma

The fact he’s not voted all game and his first vote is on me and his reason basically implies he knows I’m town is a red flag for me

I can’t be scum who doesn’t give a shit if I’m wrong. I’m fairly obviously town. He’s not scum hunting imo.

And this just one of the reasons why I’m suspicious of skitter.

VOTE: keyeser

Really hate when people say they are going to do stuff instead of actually doing it.

I still personally think sho is scum but if I’m all alone I’m not wasting anymore time pushing it. Skittle is scummy also. Bernie’s weird hammer looks bad also. I don’t remember my day 1 read of keyser was but his day 2 gut pings me hard. These mom votes also ping me.

I feel like I’m pretty transparent? Ask me any question, if you’re genuinely unsure how to sort me

I mean that’s why I want to town read you but then you make scummy posts sometimes. Scum have to appear town and I feel you are doing a good job of looking town but I don’t get that feeling it’s genuine

VOTE: Skitter
Just a feeling. y’all should sheep me

You weren’t being transparent here.

Actually given that she's V/LA till the 9th (wow) I'd say it means she's the designated vote-for-people-not-paying-enough-attention

I'll come back to her later

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Or here.

I found other examples of you not being transparent or sheeping votes for little to no reason.

You aren’t transparent when it matters imo.

mean according to your 1678 you scumread Keyser, Bernie, Skitter, me

Finding people scummy doesn’t mean I think they are scum.

And you haven’t offered any townreads

And?

I said I didn’t have any. Even if I did I’m not required to share them.

Ill only vote you/skittle/elephant today.

Sorry I left off nauci.

Gustavo can you please respond to this, or maybe let me know that you're going to later? I'd like to know why you are no longer scumreading Bernie or Keyser, and whether or not you scumread me (& if so, why).

I don’t town read you. I’m good with day 1 policy lynches.

Sho/skittles/nauci are my current scum reads. I don’t have good feelings about you or Bernie.

Though I’m kind of annoyed right now. Not a single person scum reads the scummiest person in the game yet nobody can explain what about this behavior makes him town.

I mean I'm still gonna do it for my/keyser's benefit, if it potentially clears you I'm not going to just skip it.

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lol there's some of it xD

I really gotta be more careful about using the Q+ function and then doing quick replies

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okay, where's your head at?

also no-lynching is a hilarious suggestion

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I mean I didn't mean to post those yet I want to add commentary still of what exactly was confusing me at each point

If you would otherwise be scumreading me for "laziness" you should be grateful I'm cleared to avoid the mislynch