Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[Shoshin]

It felt like a padded read.
And also a bad read.

What do you mean by "padded"? Why bad?

[Shoshin]

Why aren't you townreading the worst anymore, EP?

[Shoshin]

We still have plenty of time before deadline. Thanks for the votes, Nauci. It's pretty helpful.

[Shoshin]

I don't mind pressuring others but I'd lynch Gamma before I ever lynch Mom because if Mom's scum I think she'd have voted town Gamma already.

[Shoshin]

it was 1146; it exhibits a level of nuance that i think usually doesn't coem from scum.

What's the nuance that doesn't come from scum?

[Shoshin]

it was 1146; it exhibits a level of nuance that i think usually doesn't coem from scum.

What's the nuance that doesn't come from scum?

i meant that nuance of that level doesn't usually come from scum in my experience

I'm blind and don't see any nuance so can you point out exactly what she said that displays nuance of that level?

[Shoshin]

Hmm, okay. It's a townish post.

[Shoshin]

At a glance, I find the lack of counter wagon possibly disturbing...

How do you find something "possibly" disturbing?

[Shoshin]

Gamma's scum because he's not scumhunting and because everyone else is more town.

[Shoshin]

Mind telling the class how none of what I've been doing is scumhunting?

I don't think there's much chance of convincing you that you're scum, so not sure what you're hoping to achieve here.

[Shoshin]

Mind telling the class how none of what I've been doing is scumhunting?

I don't think there's much chance of convincing you that you're scum, so not sure what you're hoping to achieve here.

Convincing me that you're not manufacturing a crock of bullshit to mislynch me?

That should be apparent from my posting. If I'm wrong about you, then where did I go wrong with my townreads?

[Shoshin]

I'm not policy lynching NM, and I think that push is terrible from both Gamma and Nauci.

[Shoshin]

Hey Irrelephant, I don't know if you remember but NM was my strongest townread in that Newbie game before he died (like I was at 99% town). NM's readable and anyone suggesting otherwise is just wrong. And even if they think he's a policy lynch, they shouldn't be pushing his lynch today, you push policy at LYLO not D1.

[Shoshin]

I have lots of reasons to vote Gamma besides everyone else being more town.

For starters, he spent the majority of the day laying low and offering a couple safe reads on Key and Stun. Yes, he offered the occassional commentary (e.g. 318) but there's no in-depth analysis of alignments.

570 is a scummy I'm-not-town post; questioning Key here doesn't make much sense from a town perspective.

571 feels like a bullshit excuse for not having the excitement he would have had as town.

1109 and 1110 seem like someone who knows Gustavo is town rather than someone who's reading him genuinely. And the follow-up in 1140 feels opportunistic.

Then he starts playing the game a bit more actively since he's under pressure but keeps going after easy targets - eventually votes the worst, keeps talking about NM as null but now he's voting NM.

[Shoshin]

Shoshin I saw people saying NM is readable if he posts, which makes sense. I've skimmed games where NM posts and I would agree he's readable then. But how does your view factor in when he's averaging 2-3 words a day?

He's posting a usual amount for someone who is set on a Gamma lynch.

[Shoshin]

Also wait what the hell I thought PLs basically only happened D1 because it's not much worse than the otherwise uninformed reads; when is policy lynching at LYLO ever a thing? Isn't it by definition the last thing you should do at LYLO because policy lynching means beneficial even if they were town?

What's the purpose of a policy lynch? If it's to remove players you don't like, then sure, lynch on D1. But if it's to remove players who can't be read, the optimal strategy is lynching them at the last possible moment after all efforts to read them have failed.

I think towns are capable of consistently lynching scum on D1, so I disagree that PLs aren't much worse than lynching uninformed reads. I also think PLs should be reserved for cases where a player truly can't be read, not for cases where you dislike how a player plays.

[Shoshin]

You disagree with what I'm saying, Nauci?

[Shoshin]

The only people who really commit to PL’s on me are the noobs and the desperate, and Gamma ain’t no noob

What about Nauci?

[Shoshin]

IMO "wait why would you town read me here" posts are towny; not accepting someone's town read of you and making them cough up a reason is scum hunting just as if it is with any other town read on any other player. That might be, to me, his most town post on a very short list of them

I strongly disagree with this. I think questioning when someone townreads you is null by itself (I've seen town and scum do it) but the way it's done says a lot about someone's alignment. I have a hard time believing that Gamma was trying to sort Key there. Like, there's no analysis of Key, no follow-up, no nothing that shows an engagement with Key or Key's alignment. How is that town?

[Shoshin]

I have lots of ideas about who Gamma's partners are but it's not something I feel like talking about at this moment.

[Shoshin]

I don't have to justify anything, Gamma. Justification is what scum do.

[Shoshin]

The logic of lynching the least towny player isn't bullshit, and if you took a moment to think about it, you'd understand that.

[Shoshin]

You're not helping your case, Gamma.

[Shoshin]

Gamma, I'm pretty sure I read a town game of yours where you called someone scummy for speculating about scum teams on D1. But now it's scummy not to speculate about scum teams on D1? Seems like your perspective on that has changed quite a bit.

[Shoshin]

You're missing the point, Gamma. Even if I haven't thought that far ahead (and I have), why is that scummy if you don't seem to think that far ahead in your own town games? Do you think all townies think that far ahead?

[Shoshin]

I find it very difficult to believe that town Gamma suspects me because I haven't "thought that far ahead."

[Shoshin]

And yeah townies can fail to think that far ahead but in you case it feels like you slipped up in your logic and are trying to deny the fact that you screwed up.

Why?

[Shoshin]

Where's the slip in logic?

[Shoshin]

You not considering the fact that I have to have scumbuddies in order to be scum?

And why is this "slip" scummy if townies do it all the time?

[Shoshin]

The fact it seems like scum that is more focused on getting my mislynch than town who forgot, based on how dodgy you've felt about this.

So the "slip" isn't what's scummy, it's the fact that I didn't want to say who your partners are?

What's scummy about not wanting to give that information to the scum? How would that information benefit town at this point?

[Shoshin]

I guess Gamma is doubling down on his bad logic...

[Shoshin]

Gamma, why is Math town?

[Shoshin]

I'm still really not feeling the notion that the Gamma wagon is on town. :/ kinda need to hear more on his reads tho whoever asked why Math is town is smart

Are you pocketing me? I feel like maybe you are.

[Shoshin]

Has Gamma claimed? He should probably do that.

[Shoshin]

He should claim.

[Shoshin]

Gamma, why you townread Math? I missed your answer.

[Shoshin]

Gamma, why you townread Math? I missed your answer.

I think his effort towards the game comes from a town direction

This sounds like bullshit so explain more.

[Shoshin]

I don't believe there's any thought process underlying that read. I think you threw it out without thinking why.

[Shoshin]

Gamma's read on Math is bullshit.

[Shoshin]

I'd like to see Gamma's flip.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Key

[Shoshin]

I haven't reread yet so that might change.

[Shoshin]

Gamma Emerald has been lynched he was Ulysses Simpson Grant, Vanilla Townie

if only someone had spent a week shouting that this was going to be a town lynch ...

bernie, your progression from 'the wagon comp is bad and i see no scum motivation from gamma' to hammering him was gross and you have lost your townread

i'm now down to like ~3 townreads: shoshin, gustavo (provisionally because of stungun and because i think he actually believes what he's saying even tho he's wrong about everything), and nauci (because i actually see some town motivation from her; it's not a strong townread, more like there has to be town somewhere)

i'm going to start here i think

VOTE: the worst

and i am very happy to wagon mom too.

i still note that there was an *insane* amount of resistance to mom yesterday and now i'm actually proven right about the gamestate/counterwagon thing so you can't all argue something stupid like that she was scum!gamma's counterwagon

This is a terrible post.

[Shoshin]

Why shouldn't we interpret that as coming from an informed perspective?

[Shoshin]

Why are you voting the worst when the focus of your reasoning points to Mom and Bernie?

[Shoshin]

Skitter, Keyser, Bernie Sanders, Gustavo

Can you explain these reads?

[Shoshin]

Hey Irrelephant, who is the scum between Key and Skitter?

[Shoshin]

Why not both?
Why not neither?

Could be both. Could be neither. But I'm curious who you'd choose between them.

[Shoshin]

Can you explain what you meant by refusing to post justifications (about gamma potential partners) day 1? Is it that justify and explain mean different things to you?

Yes and yes.

[Shoshin]

I think we should potentially look into hypoclaiming today, but I'm not sure how exactly it would work.

What is hypoclaiming?

[Shoshin]

Gustavo, didn't you say I was scum yesterday? Why are you voting the same guy as me today?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Gustavo

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant, what happened to your scumread on Key?

[Shoshin]

Like if you actually read my posts you’d know my vote has absolutely nothing to do with you voting him.

I don't see how you suspect me yet keep voting in concert with me (first on Gamma, now on Key).

[Shoshin]

Alright, fine. Gustavo is town.

VOTE: Skitter

[Shoshin]

Why is Skitter definitely town, Irrelephant?

[Shoshin]

Shoshin what are your thoughts on the worst and the ppl voting him

Skitter's vote was pretty bad.

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant, what's the qualifier "defo" mean in 1745?

Skittere's town because she didn't vote Gamma? No. Scum probably split their votes on/off that lynch.

She's town because she shaded you when you joined her on Mom? That reasoning doesn't make much sense. Why is her instinct to shade someone who agrees with her? If anything, wouldn't that suggest that she had no conviction in Mom flipping scum?

[Shoshin]

If there's scum voting Gamma, I doubt it's Math.

Could be NM or the worst, though.

[Shoshin]

Why is Nauci scummier than Key or Errant?

[Shoshin]

I had the opposite reaction to 1663.

[Shoshin]

It's not suspect to reevaluate reads after a flip (if anything, the opposite) so it's odd that Skitter would call you out for reevaluating Mom in the opening stages of D2. And I'm especially concerned about that analysis because she agrees with the conclusion you came to. It's just hard to imagine a townie suspecting you for that.

[Shoshin]

I definitely feel like I let Mom go easy after finding a couple reasons to townread her D1

I can relate to this feeling.

[Shoshin]

just wanna say that I think that in a vacuum (thats a big qualifier, just in a vacuum) this reaction is traditionally pretty standard scummy
Like it's that very common TvS sequence:
S: I think T is scum
T: No you're wrong, here's me doing some towny things, also S, you're scum
S: Okay never mind T is town

It's also a common TvT sequence:

T1: I think T2 is scum
T2: No you're wrong, here's me doing some towny things, also T1, you're scum
T1: Okay never mind T2 is town

Like, it's the basic scumhunting pattern that happens in nearly every game. In fact, it happened earlier when Stun (Gustavo's predecessor) said I was scum, I called him on it, and then Stun quickly came around to saying I was town. Remember that?

Why bring this up now when there's multiple examples of the same pattern throughout the game?

[Shoshin]

I'm probably gonna sheep BV on Skitter.

[Shoshin]

I'm second-guessing my read there too much.

[Shoshin]

Shoshin, do you think that Gustavo accusing you of misrepping the whole TvS thing is a discussion worth having?

Do you?

[Shoshin]

math's probably better, but bv has a pretty strong track record too i think in recent months

You hydra'd with him, so I'm trusting he knows you pretty well.

[Shoshin]

BV's catchup has been pretty townie, too.

[Shoshin]

He's one of the active players I don't have a townread on based on their early posting. Can you elaborate what you were thinking here?

I don't remember exactly what I was thinking at this point but if you're still concerned about Irrelephant when you've caught up, I'll revisit him.

[Shoshin]

I'm feeling a little betrayed by elephant but i feel like this points to his mindset being fencesitty while not actually looking like such

Betrayed? Interesting word choice. Can you elaborate on this?

[Shoshin]

Momrangals first focus here on a townread somewhat betraying(?) her rather than on who is scum or analyzing anything given gamma flipped is no bueno.

That wasn't really the focus of her post.

[Shoshin]

Bernie, what's your read on Skitter?

[Shoshin]

Hey BV, I like your catchup posts quite a bit. One very important question for you, why is Skitter town?

[Shoshin]

Can you give me a short overview of the differences you found in Momrangal's town and scum games.

I can't remember exactly as I was mostly checking a few things for consistency. I'm pretty sure I read a town game where she opened very similarly to the way she opened here, sort of ignoring everything that had happened and going after a lurker. As scum, she tended to look sort of townish but hedged quite a bit more than she did as town and she'd sheep almost any opportunity for a mislynch.

I'm not sure Mom's town anymore. There was one game where she got caught for some blatant buddying and I'm a bit paranoid that's what she's doing to me.

[Shoshin]

I'm really glad to see BV questioning Mom's early push on Invis. I had similar thoughts but brushed them off because I know how easy it is for town to suspect Invis when they haven't played with him before (he's been mislynched in nearly every game he's ever played).

[Shoshin]

holy mother of busywoek

if the cop isn't on BVslot they should be embarrassed

BV's very obviously town here.

[Shoshin]

Bv if you have specific questions for me can you please ask them succinctly in clear English without answering your own question with your own opinions

and preferably in their own short posts so I read them

like rn I'm reading maybe 1/10 of your posts and praying to the mafia gods that you eat a nk or get copped so I don't have to sort you

Why didn't you react to Nauci this way? Or even Errant? Both of whom make long posts in a similar way to BV?

[Shoshin]

the worst, you said you were going to check something about me. What was it?

[Shoshin]

UNVOTE: Skitter

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Key

[Shoshin]

I really don't like the worst's response to BV.

[Shoshin]

Everyone should probably either vote momrangal or at minimum respond to my points on her.

Think it could be Mom, Key, and the worst?

[Shoshin]

Everyone should probably either vote momrangal or at minimum respond to my points on her.

Think it could be Mom, Key, and the worst?

Wait, hold on.
Do you really simulaneously
a) hold this theory as plausible and
b) think that Key is so much scummier than the other two that you consider it a good move to try and start a wagon on him as opposed to joining a wagon

a) it's a plausible theory, but (b) I never said Key was "so much scummier."

[Shoshin]

He's very insightful as town, but as scum can fake that sort of analysis pretty well, especially when he can see what townread people had said previously and can moderate his opinions to match - that's why I'm waiting for him to catch up because I think it would be a bit harder for scum!him to do that in real-time.

Do you think he'd read the whole game this carefully as scum? Like, he's really digging into the nuances of every post in a way that I have trouble seeing anyone do as scum.

[Shoshin]

Elephant is a town read, and i feel like hes succumbing to a bit of paranoia. I dont really like it when i have pretty confident townreads and i cant really work with them

Why is Irrelephant a townread?

[Shoshin]

ftr i haven't actually played with scum!him but i've skimmed a few of his scumgames

Where have you seen him do something similar as scum?

[Shoshin]

ftr i haven't actually played with scum!him but i've skimmed a few of his scumgames

Where have you seen him do something similar as scum?

i was vaguely following along with this one

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10167187

That specific post you just quoted should clear BV as town here.

[Shoshin]

It's unlikely that Key/Mom are scum together, still need to check interactions between the two of them and the worst.

[Shoshin]

i'm checking mafia during lecture. am I the new nauci?

You're on your way.

[Shoshin]

Nuance isn't there in his game as scum, it's very mechanical, almost surgical. There's a real person trying to solve the game in his posts here. I mean, I could be wrong, but I got a very different vibe from reading his scum post. Though to be fair, I didn't read it in context.

[Shoshin]

Part of the thing about BV's play as scum there is that there's a lot more mechanical commentary ("X happened, it's reasonable; Y happened, it's weird; if Z's the case, W") than actual analysis of what could be going through people's minds, which is what you see here.

[Shoshin]

I'm not worried about BV at the moment.

Let's talk about Key. I still don't understand how anyone makes 414 or 547 without some sort of ulterior motive biasing those interpretations.

I also don't like the way he interacts with Gamma (it's like he's doing anything possible to avoid voting Gamma even though all his posts suggest that he suspects him).

543 doesn't square with the explanation in 629.

1224 is lots of mechanical commentary (like, this is the sort of stuff I'd see BV posting as scum rather than town).

Key eventually votes Mom - this is when Gamma's at L-1 and Mom's V/LA - to "make this a two-horse race." And he stresses that his reads feel bad. So he's not even committing to anything on Gamma or Mom or anyone else. He's very passive with respect to both wagons.

But if anyone thinks he's town, I'd like to hear why.

[Shoshin]

The surprise in 630 feels fake too.

[Shoshin]

It's safe to townread Skitter for the moment because even though I haven't checked the meta, I believe BV, and he's right about the drive in her pushes this game.

[Shoshin]

Also what do you think of my VCA?

I'm not sure what this refers to, which post?

[Shoshin]

like tonally he feels weird and he like summarizes a lot and expects other people to come to conclusions for him almost? i said somewhere earlier that he almost feels like he's narrating a discussion between two other parties when there's conflict without really coming to his own conclusion. but idk if that's how usually plays as town or scum without doing a whole meta thing that i really doubt i'm going to do in the nearish future; i'm kinda prioritizing the actively scummy people right now

I don't think you need meta to see how scummy this is. His posts are fake, he's narrating instead of analyzing, his vote on Mom was convictionless, he didn't want to vote Gamma despite suspecting him, and his interpretations in 414 and 547 betray an informed perspective.

What makes Mom scummier?

[Shoshin]

I also don't really care what Stun thought. His slot's probably town but that doesn't mean he was right about Key a few pages into the game.

[Shoshin]

So... BlackVoid, Skitter, Gustavo, Nauci, Bernie, and Irrelephant are townish.

NM, Mom, and Errant are nullish.

Key, the worst, and ??? as scum.

[Shoshin]

Have Mom or Errant given an updated list of reads?

[Shoshin]

What I mean about 414 and 547 is that those interpretations don't make any sense from a town perspective (as you said, he blatantly misinterprets you), they only make sense from the perspective of someone who knows the alignments of the players he's talking about (e.g. in your case, that interpretation only makes sense from the perspective of someone who knows math is town).

[Shoshin]

These are my two main VCA posts but also like half my posts since then have referenced these thoughts and I was curious why you're focusing so much on Keyser/Skitter/Mom when none of them voted Gamma

I don't see why scum voted Gamma? It's not like there was a counterwagon on scum that would have driven them towards Gamma and the votes were split elsewhere. It feels like scum let Gamma get lynched rather than pushing it themselves, so I disagree that there's two scum on the wagon. You might be right but gut says otherwise.

[Shoshin]

the scummiest vote on Gamma was the worst. But other than that, I don't see it. Maybe NM, maybe Bernie, but I'd still rather lynch off-wagon.

[Shoshin]

i mean, just because they don't make sense from a town perspective doesn't mean that it only makes sense from the perspective of someone who knows the alignments of the players he's talking about

i really don't see that interpretation of that post at all; i just don't see the implication that math must be town from his post there

p-edit: i think that mom may have been gamma's counterwagon given the general resistance and idk how you can make a general statemetn of 'it's not like there was a counterwagon on scum'; town doesn't know that either way right now

I think you don't see it because you're reading the post as if it's about you when it's probably not - the more likely explanation for 547 is that Key read Math's posts knowing that Math was town, so he couldn't imagine any other response to Math other than an apology. You could say he was pocketing Math, because I just don't see how else he arrives at his interpretation.

It's the same thing in 414 ("Mom came back with a bang" doesn't make sense unless he was already pre-inclined to read Mom as town, either because they're partnered or because he knows Mom is town).

Mom wasn't ever under much pressure, so I disagree about that. The moment Mom turned into a potential counterwagon (when Key voted her), Bernie immediately switched his vote to Gamma. So, yeah, if Mom flips scum, that's something worth looking at more closely. But otherwise, I don't see any sort of counterwagon that drove scum to vote Gamma.

[Shoshin]

I was frustrated with Gamma (because I have played with him before) but this never translated to a scum read. (I ultimately town read him).

Mom was part of a D1 scum team theory (I did not have a tangible hard scum case on her) therefore, my vote and case would have appeared weak/“convictionless”. She has since posted D2 so I will now look into her catch-up and thoughts.

I don’t think I should be today’s lynch Shoshin. I town read you, but I am very disappointed you think I am the best place to go right now. I personally think I have more town points than the Mom slot too Even Mom would admit to that @Momrangel

You townread Gamma? Why?

What was the Mom theory back on D1?

I don't understand your appeal to Mom. You think Mom would rather be lynched than see you lynched?

[Shoshin]

Key, do you have any games as scum / town?

[Shoshin]

Errant, why is Key town?

[Shoshin]

Key, do you have any games as scum / town?

Yes, I’ve played around 15-20 games on Mafiascum.

Can you link your games as scum?

[Shoshin]

I sadly cannot help you right now as I am busy reading Momrangel's posts.

How hard is it for you to find your scum games and post the links?

[Shoshin]

The Momrangel slot demands my complete attention and full focus.

This may be a pivotal moment in the game.

Why the urgency?

[Shoshin]

Such bullshit, Key.

[Shoshin]

The most recent game I found is Mini 1888 - is there a more recent scum game?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Gustavo

Bad vote.

[Shoshin]

Maybe Key, the worst, and NM?

[Shoshin]

Key, why don't you want me reading your scum games?

[Shoshin]

the worst, remember this:

Shoshin do you have some examples of scumgames?

Shoshin do you have some examples of scumgames?

There's one on this site. My scum play looks nothing like my play in this game. It's not even close.

I'm not asking for your evaluation, there's a couple of things I want to check. Do you have some off-site games you can throw me a link to?

That'd ruin the surprise. I should actually be able to look into this in good time but if not I'll just talk to you about it.

I still want to know what you wanted to check and whether you ever checked it.

[Shoshin]

Key, why don't you want me reading your scum games?

I don’t wanna be rude, but that information is available for every player to see.

Click someone’s profile and view their topics.

I did that because you refused to help me find your games... the rude one is you who is straight-up refusing to help me out when I made a perfectly reasonable request... because sometimes it's not easy to find scum games... I also asked you whether you have a more recent game from Mini 1888. You haven't replied yet.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Gustavo

Bad vote.

How can I make a good vote if I'm barely reading the game?

Why are you barely reading the game?

[Shoshin]

I've never seen a townie try to hide their meta the way Key is.

[Shoshin]

Okay...

Key, why are you making it so difficult for me to find your games so that I can get a better read on you?

[Shoshin]

Key's scum.

[Shoshin]

Bernie, you think Key is town?

[Shoshin]

NM's probably scum, too.

[Shoshin]

i don't think any of this not-linking-scumgames thing is like remotely AI

like yeah i agree there's no town motivation not to do it - but there's literally no scum motivation either

Scum motivation = making it harder for me to find his games
Scum motivation = not wanting me to read his games

If he had left it at that, fine. But he's straight-up refusing to even talk with me about this. I asked him if he had a more recent scum game than Mini 1888 - no answer, instead he calls me rude for asking and tries getting me to stop engaging him.

[Shoshin]

Oh nice, now Key's ignoring me.

[Shoshin]

What're your reads, Key?

[Shoshin]

It would take him literally two seconds to help me out... but he can't help because he's too busy rereading Mom's posts? It's bullshit, Skitter. Fake reason, too.

[Shoshin]

Key's scum. That reads list is terrible.

[Shoshin]

Does anyone oppose a Mom lynch?

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant, I don't understand how your Key scumread suddenly disappeared...

[Shoshin]

What changed?

[Shoshin]

Skitter, what do you make of the way Key went from scumreading Mom to townreading today?

[Shoshin]

Like, it makes sense for people who scumread Gamma to reevaluate their reads, because Gamma flipped town. But it's not so clear why Key's reevaluating in the way he is when he townread Gamma...

[Shoshin]

I had a D1 scumteam in my head (Skitter, BS, Mom) and a D2 scumteam developing (Nauci, BS, TW).

Like, how do you go from scumreading Mom to scumreading Nauci when you already townread Gamma? What changed?

[Shoshin]

I didn't think she was scummy before Gamma flipped because the main reason I think she's scum now is knowing Gamma's alignment.

Couldn't you say the same about Key, the guy who you also scumread on D1? I don't understand how he drops out of your focus.

[Shoshin]

It hasn't disappeared. I just think you're incorrect about off/on wagon analysis, and idk which of Mom/Key is scum. I'll lynch either one, though I'd rather vote Not_Mafia, honestly. Those three are basically my lynchpool. I'm no expert at understanding counterwagons, though - I could vote Keyser if that's helpful to the game state?

Why not the worst?

[Shoshin]

probably not partner-indicative; it's a very odd trajectory for a partner to take on scum!mom given the gamestate

Why's that an odd trajectory for a partner? He votes partner when partner isn't going to be lynched, then defends partner when partner is under threat of lynching.

And what's it say about Key if Mom is town?

[Shoshin]

I thought it was a rather poor use of 3 hours tbh if she was strapped for time. It felt kinda showy. Why not use that limited time to develop reads? Vote counts are something that would typically be more useful later on with flips.

I don't think it's helpful to discourage her efforts regardless of what you think about how she used the time. To be sure, it's not how I would have used 3 hours but to each their own. The important thing is that Nauci's probably town.

[Shoshin]

I could see Irrelephant as scum.

[Shoshin]

Nauci, how cacluated were Irrelephant's votes as scum?

[Shoshin]

*sigh*

I’ll cut in and say they were

very

calculated. Honestly it’s nice being townread but I’m playing pretty similar compared to that game, just worse.

That's the sense I got from the way Nauci talked about it, but I'd like her perspective.

[Shoshin]

You read through Key's games?

[Shoshin]

Did he narrate things as town? Or interpret things in ways that don't make sense?

[Shoshin]

Feels like Mom has given up.

[Shoshin]

Hey BV, I found this while looking back at town Irrelephant's play in the Newbie game:

Oh yeah, I forgot you've been stellar today. lol I keep looking at D1 and a little of D2 which on my first read through I wrote the note "Shoshin more likely town, no scum, no town, idk" as I read it.

That's pretty consistent with how he's been playing this game, lots of back-and-forth on everyone. So, I dunno. Might be worth looking at his scum game to see if his votes shifted around as much as here, but I get the sense this is a town-tell for Irrelephant.

[Shoshin]

Gus, assume I'm town for a moment - who would you lynch?

[Shoshin]

The question asks you to assume I'm town because otherwise I have no way to talk about the game with you.

[Shoshin]

Gus, I haven't responded to a lot of your attacks because I don't want to clutter the game with a long back-and-forth with you that isn't going to lead anywhere. I think you're town, so I was hoping we could still discuss the game despite the fact that you scumread me. But if you think I'm a policy lynch, nevermind. That's the type of thinking that makes working with you impossible.

[Shoshin]

I don't want this day ending until BV is caught up.

I'm no longer townreadnig him because his catch up is taking way longer than it should.

[Shoshin]

wasn't the original reason you townread him due to some really apparent meta read? Is the length of time that he's taking enough to invalidate that?

Nah, the original reason is because I liked the nuance in his posts. But Skitter brought up a valid point about how it's easier to fake that sort of posting when you're catching up rather than playing in real time, and now it feels like he's stalling by taking forever to catch up.

[Shoshin]

Why is 2106 a town-tell, BV?

[Shoshin]

Why is 2106 a town-tell, BV?

Because I think scum generally try to townread people who they can manipulate into townreading them. It could be unsuccessful of course but they can always change their reads. If a townie is tunneling a scum player, it's easy to tunnel back and get lost in a 1v1 or just play around them and work with other people. Town would be frustrated in that instance because their townreads are legitimately their townreads and if they can't work with them, that sucks. They can't just turn around and start working with their scumreads.

I don't think that's really true. I agree that scum townread people for a reason, but what those reasons are vary - and one common reason (the one I suspect here) is that those players are either widely read as town or unlikely to be lynched.

[Shoshin]

Yeah, Gustavo's town. I agree with your reads except the townread on Key and the strong scumread on Irrelephant.

Can you talk to me about those?

[Shoshin]

Yeah, Gustavo's town. I agree with your reads except the townread on Key and the strong scumread on Irrelephant.

Can you talk to me about those?

Yeah, I was going to go down the line but I want to cross-check with their previous games so give me a bit.

Instead of going down the line, can you start with these two and then your scumreads?

[Shoshin]

Have you read his scum game?

[Shoshin]

I don't think Bernie's scum, Mom.

[Shoshin]

Yeah, I'm noticing that as well. Very difficult to get people to work as a team here.

Hey sho, what happened to this person? Why are you so anti-working together this game?

I've been trying to work with everyone... You're the one who refuses to work with me. I tried discussing reads with you but all you want to do is tell me how I'm scum when I know I'm not.

[Shoshin]

What's bizarre about it?

[Shoshin]

What's bizarre about it?

My focus has been on (X) this entire day but I've not voted him because it would just be one vote so what's the point.

Seems like someone who has given up.

[Shoshin]

Nauci

Why did you vote nauci immediately after math did with absolutely no reason for it and hardly any mention of him prior?

As you know from Tropical, I don't always state my reasons for voting. So why ask this question?

Because I want your reason.

No shit. What do you think my answer will tell you about my alignment if you know I do this as town?

You aren’t trying to work together here.

I felt (and still feel) like you are the one who isn't trying to work with me.

As I explained to you, I thought your question was asking why I voted without giving a reason, not why I voted for Nauci in particular. I answered by referring you to a town game where I didn't always give reasons for my votes, implying that the question I thought you were asking wasn't helpful to sorting my alignment.

I also asked you a question about your question. But rather than answer my question, you gave a combative non-answer ("because I want your reason" isn't an answer). In response, I was more aggressive because I thought you were refusing to answer a valid question. Look at this from my point of view - I thought you knew better than to ask that question because we had played together in Tropical, so I was questioning the point of your question.

Ever since, you've been saying I'm lying and anti-working together. But as others have tried telling you, I didn't lie, I don't always state my reasoning when I vote, and I'm clearly trying to work with everyone jhere, including you despite the fact that you scumread me - that's why I asked you about your reads assuming I'm town, because I wanted to pull you into the game in a meaningful way since you're sitting on the side lines talking about me when that's not helping anyone.

Now, if you want to keep pushing me and ignoring all the evidence that I wasn't lying and all the evidence that I'm working with people in this game, then there's nothing I can do about that. It's unfortunate, because I'd like to work with you, but for the moment there's not much to be done about it.

[Shoshin]

Holy fuck, Gustavo. I didn't lie. And everyone in the game agrees with me, not you. You're just blinded by your own arrogance. And you're the one who has been needlessly combative from your very first question to me. Everyone in this game agrees with me, and if it weren't for Stun, lots of people wouldn't even townread you.

But whatever. I'm pretty tired of this, so fuck it, I'm just gonna claim because I'd rather have you invested in the game in a meaningful way.

I'm a doctor. I protected you last night.

I don't know if I'm the only doctor or protective in the game so I can't guarantee that Gustavo was the nightkill, but I'm guessing he was because it just makes a lot of sense.

I voted him today to see if I could tease out some reactions from scum. Then I decided to stop doing that because it was obviously pissing Gustavo off. I didn't think he'd actually abandon the wagon on Key because of my prodding but I guess he's obsessed with me to the point of still harping on all this lying bullshit.

And with that, I'll probably die tonight. Which is okay with me, I'm getting burned out from mafia anyway.

Now, Gustavo, stop talking about me and reevaluate the game please. I actually want your input and want you invested in this.

[Shoshin]

I can't. Having my townreads tunnel me like this actually throws me off my game.

[Shoshin]

Whatever, I hope he gets into the game now instead of tunneling me.

[Shoshin]

Wow. What a fucking idiot.

[Shoshin]

Please don't replace into my games anymore.

[Shoshin]

I thought Gus was the obvious nightkill but whatever. I'm done talking to him.

[Shoshin]

Nauci, can you explain why you're townreading Key?

[Shoshin]

Nauci, can you explain why you're townreading Key?

Because in his extensive posting I have seen transparency, scum hunting, careful analysis, and reactions which I both empathized with and thought were natural for town to have.

I think that you scumreading him is based on differences in personality and therefore difficulty in understanding his POV but that he hasn't done anything scummy as far as I know.

You're talking in generalities and that's not really helpful to me. Transparency, careful analysis,scumhunting - that's stuff he's more than capable of faking as scum.

Are there any specific posts that make you think he's town? Or specific town-tells?

[Shoshin]

Why did you protect Gustavo @Shoshin?

I was trying to predict the nightkill while protecting one of my stronger townreads. I had Gus as strong town - his slot wasn't mislynchable because Stun was widely townread, and even Gus alone was strong town to me because his play was so different from his scum game. I also thought he expressed a strong desire to move on from D1 in a way that made me think scum would target him as a nightkill because scum tend to mistake that as a PR-tell.

[Shoshin]

In case this wasn't obvious to anyone, the reason I claimed was to try working with Gustavo. But he still doesn't want to stop tunneling me or reevaluate anything, so please address any issues you have about that to him.

[Shoshin]

Lynch or not, I'd say that it's pretty factual that Keyser has put more effort into the game than momrangal, no? We can disagree on if that effort translates into "town points."

Is effort a town-tell for Mom or Key?

[Shoshin]

- you can accuse me of being not ‘helpful’ but I was busy... and the fact Shos started to scum read me for it just made me incensed so I maybe went over board with being obstinate and childish.

I didn't say you were scummy because you were busy... what I did is call out your bullshit excuse not to post your games ("oh I'm focused on reading Mom atm, super urgent, can't help you"). If you had just said, "later when I'm not on my phone," that's different. Then you came at me when I pushed you on it, calling me rude for even asking because apparently it's rude to ask people for links? That's a massive overreaction to what you admit was a correct interpretation of your excuse (the excuse was bullshit).

So explain why you're so incensed about a correct interpretation of a bullshit excuse?

[Shoshin]

The thing that makes me paranoid about the gamestate is that the people I find scummy (like Errant, TW) are okay with a Momrangal wagon and Irrelephant is okay with both. Gamestate-wise, Momra/TW are the two wagons likely to go through so I'm no longer considering them to be partners. One could be scum but not both. I really want to re-evaluate the people outside my strongest townpile but who are not actively in my scumpile which is Nauci/Keyser/Not_Mafia.

I still want to know why you thought Key was townish.

[Shoshin]

The thing that makes me paranoid about the gamestate is that the people I find scummy (like Errant, TW) are okay with a Momrangal wagon and Irrelephant is okay with both. Gamestate-wise, Momra/TW are the two wagons likely to go through so I'm no longer considering them to be partners. One could be scum but not both. I really want to re-evaluate the people outside my strongest townpile but who are not actively in my scumpile which is Nauci/Keyser/Not_Mafia.

I'm thinking a large part of this is probably because the stronger townies in this game have come together in a way that makes it very difficult for scum to push counterwagons. So I still think it's plausible that Mom and the worst are scum together because at this point they might just have given up (that's the sense I'm getting from both).

I think the points you bring up about Irrelephant are good but I still don't think he's nearly as scummy as others (Errant, NM, Key, etc.). The thing about that Newbie game is that we had a lot of flips already including a scum flip; the game had narrowed down scum to 1 of 2 players so it made sense for Irrelephant to have some confidence about pushing OTM. But if you look closer you see that there is uncertainty about things, he even starts questioning me as town at some point until I pointed out why I couldn't be scum there - so I sort of expected him to come into the earlier part of this game with a lot more uncertainty about reads, especially since this game is a lot more complex and features some pretty competent scum players. I also get the sense that he's a tryhard player who would be pushing a very clear scum agenda if he were scum here, not sort of struggling to figure things out like the rest of us.

[Shoshin]

I didn’t call you rude, I was saying I didn’t want to be rude (because I was holding back vulgar language directed at you).

You caught me at a bad time, and I felt your scum narrative regarding my motivation to not post links to all my town/scum games was reachy/inane/disgenuine.

I do admit my reaction made something innocent into something that has been blown out of proportion.

Why'd you make up a bullshit excuse if you never intended to post links? And why get upset when I called you out for spewing bullshit? That doesn't make sense to me.

[Shoshin]

I know you think that, Skitter. You've said it a couple times. I disagree, and I intend to continue this line of questioning until my concerns are cleared up.

[Shoshin]

Key, do you have any games as scum / town?

Yes, I’ve played around 15-20 games on Mafiascum.

Can you link your games as scum?

I sadly cannot help you right now as I am busy reading Momrangel's posts.

I sadly cannot help you right now as I am busy reading Momrangel's posts.

How hard is it for you to find your scum games and post the links?

The Momrangel slot demands my complete attention and full focus.

This may be a pivotal moment in the game.

The fuck is this shit; it takes like 30 seconds to link previous games

btw I think this post is a massive town-tell for Nauci. In case anyone had any doubts.

[Shoshin]

Why do you see it as a town-tell, Irrelephant?

[Shoshin]

Well, there was small part of me that thought her scum equity included being partners with Keyser, which I no longer see.
But also, and mainly, her getting this upset over not being cooperative seems v unlikely as scum. Like I just think she wouldn't think to have an angry response, I'd expect any of fake confusion/scumreading Keyser/taking his side to pocket him/ignoring it entirely instead.

Hbu?

Very different reasons. Context is key. I had just asked her to explain why she townread Key in more detail and then she suddenly starts aggressively questioning him. I don't see scum responding to me in that way. Scum would probably try to "justify" their townread whereas town starts looking at Key again, sees that exchange, and goes off on him. Just a very natural turn that seems very difficult for scum to fake.

[Shoshin]

@Shoshin I think that *everything* Scumrelephant did was calculated, and his votes especially. He was opportunistic, but never blatantly so, and will try to run a wagon up on a player he considers threatening to scum if given the opportunity, as well as fall in line with a popular wagon without the greatest of reasons if necessary, including flip flopping. So don't let Irrelephant sheep without providing perspective, ever. I don't think Scumrrelephant would dare to start any wagons, but I'm not sure if Townrrelephant would either and will need to go read his town game. I do think Scumrrelephant is fairly reluctant to succumb to momentous town reads on formerly easy mislynches though, once he has declared a scum read on someone, unless it's his partner.

Opportunistic, yes. He's jumped around to a lot of popular wagons. But is that calculated? I'm not sure. I could be wrong but I feel like scum don't flop their reads around this much. But you and BV might be right, I'm not that confident in my read by any means. Sort of null for me at this point.

[Shoshin]

I still have a hard time seeing why Gus over Skitter. I thought Skitter or Shoshin would have been the most likely targets.

Scum try to avoid the obvious because they don't want their kill failing.

[Shoshin]

I agree. Getting their claims now will save us a lot of trouble later.

[Shoshin]

BV, what do you think of the way Nauci started questioning Key after we asked her to explain her townread on him? Doesn't seem towny to you?

[Shoshin]

Nothing wrong with getting two claims imo.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: black

lol

[Shoshin]

Great game! I had a lot of fun playing with all of you! So glad town pulled this out, I was having a heart attack at certain points lol

[Shoshin]

Yes! That feels good. Well played everyone. I was expecting Errant to shoot Keyser. I get the WIFOM value of killing Irrelephant but I think it would have been a closer game if Irrelephant was alive because it would have taken more work to convince him. Once Nauci outed clears on Keyser and Irrelephant, I knew that as long as me and skitter trusted each other, we could lynch everybody else and still win. So, while I was trying to end the game earlier, the priority was always to make sure that everybody understood that we were both town so that even in the worst case scenario where we mislynch two other townies, it would still be impossible to lose. I can't really regret lynching N_M at that point but I think Gustavo lynch could have been avoided.

Skitter played really well even by her standards, launching wagons on two scum on D2 and Keyser having EP as scum towards the end was refreshing. I thought Shoshin played really well being town and advancing the game. I'm also very impressed with Errant's claim and reactions during the "neighborhood" thing. I didn't get a chance to say this in game but I hope you feel better irl. Was also fun seeing Rask again. I just felt way more comfortable putting you down as a solid townread here. I think it's hilarious that you were so paranoid of me when the exact opposite happened to you before.

I'm probably taking a short break from mafia. Despite this game being fun, I just spent so many hours of effort on this that I'm not sure I can do again. But I'm glad it paid off in the end, Thanks for modding, brassherald!

So glad you pulled this out! I really enjoyed playing with you, you were awesome, and btw, you were one of my strongest townreads after that catch-up and throughout the whole game. I thought it was funny how everyone was paranoid about you but when I looked at your scum game briefly it was like night/day lol... I could tell you put a lot of time into this so I totally understand the burnout feel (I kinda felt that way during the game myself, though it was related to another game at the time) but I hope you keep playing and we have another chance to play again!

It's nice to hear you think I played well but I think I could have been a lot better. I shouldn't have mislynched Gamma and I was totally off on Key. I'd say other than that I was okay, my last reads on D2 were pretty close. If you had put our reads together we basically had it - replace my scumread on Key with your read, and replace your scumread on Irrelephant with my read, and it was there.

[Shoshin]

Nauci was talking about modding a reuinion game in the dead thread. I hope that happens. Other than one player I didn't enjoy much, this was the most fun playerlist I think I've played with so far. Also, at Key, sorry I suspected you, I suck.

@Errant - you're a god at scum, don't know how you pulled this off for as long as you did but it was amazing and you deserve massive props for how far you got.

[Shoshin]

@Mom

Hehe thanks for the comments, it's good to know I inspire fear in scums. And no I didn't see your old main, only games from this account.

[Shoshin]

Can I join spectator thread? Has the game started already?

[Shoshin]

Lol that's actually pretty funny.