Open 756: Hope Plus One (Day 5)

[Shoshin]

i already explained why celica is town. i already explained why I'm reluctant to wagon worm. if you were town you'd be reading the thread.

I cannot find these explanations. Please refer me to the specific posts.

[Shoshin]

Why'd you vote Celica in the first place?

[Shoshin]

why are you only interested in sorting me or playing the game when I'm calling you scum?

This description of my play is incorrect.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Worm

[Shoshin]

What the fuck, Creature?

[Shoshin]

I need a break from playing mafia.

[Shoshin]

RC, I'd like you to do me a favor for my sake. I want you to assume that me, Fumuki, NSG, Creature, and GIF are town for a moment. Under that assumption, who are the scum?

[Shoshin]

i'm not going to give either of you the satisfaction of treating you like town or this game like it's an actual game of mafia.

you really don't deserve it.

Fuck you, then.

I'm trying to figure this game out & you're making it more difficult than it needs to be.

[Shoshin]

Eyes, what're your reads?

[Shoshin]

I'm not engaging a 1v1 with RC.

If anyone other than RC has concerns about me, please let me know what they are.

[Shoshin]

RC, why would you insist on lynching me instead of looking for my partners? That doesn't make sense to me.

If I'm worried you're scum, I always lynch your partners before going after you. I feel like you'd do the same when it comes to sorting me & it worries me that you're pushing my lynch over anything else.

I also don't like that you're not open to having a conversation about the game with me. I'm trying to solve this thing & if you're town then it'd be very helpful to me to have your perspective under the assumption that I'm town.

You say you like playing with me, yet you refuse my attempts to engage with you at every turn. Why won't you talk about the game with me? What's the harm in assuming for the sake of discussion that I'm town?

You say I'm not playing the game. That's untrue. And besides, you know for a fact that my activity isn't related to alignment. I thought you follow all my games? So why do you keep pushing the idea that I'm scum based on what you claim is less effort than usual? This isn't helpful to the game.

[Shoshin]

RC's reads are completely off, Worm.

[Shoshin]

I don't know what you're asking.

[Shoshin]

Why are you voting me, Egix?

[Shoshin]

Why have you been scumreading me?

[Shoshin]

What are your reads, Egix?

[Shoshin]

Will you talk about the game with me, Emperor?

[Shoshin]

Do you have any reads?

[Shoshin]

What's giving you scum vibes about me?

[Shoshin]

Fumuki, take your vote off me please.

[Shoshin]

GIF, remove your vote.

[Shoshin]

I have a lot of things to address & I'd like the space to do that without feeling the pressure of getting hammered at any moment.

[Shoshin]

RC, stop being a shitty human being & allow people to play the game.

[Shoshin]

We're getting an extension, or so I thought.

[Shoshin]

I'm going to start by addressing Egix.

Why have you been scumreading me?

No offence intended, but have you been reading my posts? I thought I'd been explaining myself quite well but if not, I apologise.

All right then, if I'm wrong on you and you're actually town, then now's your chance to show it.

- Can you remember why you said "I'd feel tempted to self-vote in that case, RC." in post#36? Because I don't think that's a very towny attitude to have.

- You seem to ask the question "if you assume I'm town, who are the scum?" or some variation of it, often. What do you intend to achieve by asking it?

- P#798 - "I'm also sort of lazy this game because I have the backup of RC & NSG, so I feel less urgency about sorting alignments." Why those two players specifically?

- P#978 - "You're scum until you stop scumreading me." Can you remember why you said that?

- P#986 - "I don't have a solid read on either of RC or NSG." Then why were you using them as backup?

This is from looking through the first ~half of your ISO. That should be enough for the time being.

What are your reads, Egix?

{NSG, Freezer}
{Cowbells, Fumuki}
{Eyes, Wormy}

Flippy - If I be honest I don't really have a read on him atm

{Creature}
{Titus slot, Shosh}

1. None of the things you're concerned about are scummy so I'm confused about why you're scumreading me? The stuff you point to is mostly stuff you don't understand, which begs the question, why didn't you ask about these things earlier? Remember, stuff you don't understand isn't scummy, it's just stuff you don't understand.

2. 36 was a joke directed at RC based on a recent experience in Fire On The Mountain & conversations about self-voting that were taking place in the discussion forum at the time I made the post. For context, in Fire On The Mountain, I self-voted as town at the start of D1 when a bunch of players started voting me. RC was in this game. NSG modded it.

3. I asked RC & NSG to assume I'm town so that they'd have more accurate reads. I have a lot of respect for both of these players, and helping them view the game in a way that increases the accuracy of their reads is pro-town from my perspective. I also find it more helpful to read players when they assume I'm town, because then I'm able to see if their perspective on the game makes sense by comparing it with my perspective where I know I'm town. If they read me as scum, it plausibly throws everything off so it's much harder for me to evaluate whether these players are town/scum. I can point you to multiple examples of me asking this same type of question in town games, so I'm not sure why this would even be a concern for you. What's scummy about asking people to assume I'm town for the sake of discussion?

4. I said RC's scum until he stops scumreading me because I expect better from RC. I've said this exact same thing to RC before in other games where I was town, so this isn't scummy for me.

5. When I say I have the backup of RC/NSG in this game, that doesn't automatically mean they're townreads. It means I feel safe to work less hard than usual up until the point where I think RC/NSG aren't town. I think you'd understand what I'm saying more if you look at my posts as reaction tests & if you realize that my reads aren't stuck in stone, they're evolving based on how players respond to everything I say or do.

6. Why is Creature & Celica scum?

[Shoshin]

Egix jumped off of voting Celica to vote me when he claims that Celica is a top scumread for him. Why'd he do this? This doesn't make any sense from a town perspective.

[Shoshin]

For some reason, Egix prefers that I'm lynched over Titus. Why?

[Shoshin]

Here she seems pretty lost and I...sympathize a lot with that. I feel like most of the scum would have at least a half-assed narrative on their reads, but looking in Shoshin ISO there really seems to be nothing.

What the fuck are you talking about? My reads have been very clear.

The scum are within the group of RC, Egix, Worm, Titus, and maybe Emperor/Eyes if not those four.

I've been clear about this. The players who are lost is everyone else.

[Shoshin]

GIF, unvote me. Please don't make the same mistake you made in Fire.

[Shoshin]

yes that's exactly what I'm saying, and you would know that a shoshin wagon wouldn't go through while I'm leading a different wagon at the same time because of my sheer force of will.

if you're not shoshin's buddy then vote her.

Fucking RC manipulating Fumuki into voting me. This is awful.

[Shoshin]

What Fire

NSG's game. Fire On The Mountain or whatever it's called.

[Shoshin]

Okay, pretend that you didn't suck in that game to save face. Whatever.

You're going to mislynch me again because you're letting RC manipulate you again. If this is how you play mafia, what's even the point of playing?

[Shoshin]

In order of towniness:

Fumuki
Creature
NSG
GIF
Eyes
Emperor

[Shoshin]

Okay, I got you confused with someone else.

[Shoshin]

Why are you voting me?

[Shoshin]

I wish I had been here to stop RC from manipulating Fumuki.

Fuck.

This game's coming down to timing.

[Shoshin]

We can lynch someone else, then. There's other options GIF.

[Shoshin]

The only reason I'm getting lynched is because RC's manipulated a bunch of players into voting for me instead of voting for the people they actually want to lynch.

Celica was a fine lynch. GIF wants that slot dead. Fumuki wants that slot dead. NSG said it's scummy. Creature prefers Celica dead over me. Egix wants Celica dead. Eyes says I'm town. Yet everyone's voting me? What the fuck?

How do you let this happen?

[Shoshin]

We have 4 hours to lynch someone else.

Please remove your vote so that we can discuss before I get lolhammered.

[Shoshin]

You suffer no harm from removing your vote for the time being.

[Shoshin]

We'll get the votes for a different lynch. We just need the players to show up.

[Shoshin]

GIF, please look at how RC manipulated Fumuki into voting me. What's your response to that?

[Shoshin]

There's also some bizarre voting patterns coming from RC/Egix around Celica. Please take a look at that as well.

[Shoshin]

You don't have to go after RC today to read the game & try to figure out who the scum are. And most importantly, to not get manipulated by him.

[Shoshin]

Everything I see from you seems to be a what can I say/ask here to seem more townie

I'd like you to look at this from the perspective of a townie who wants people to talk about the game when they're not. What else can I do but ask questions? I'm doing my best to get information from people who aren't sharing it, so that we can come together & form a wagon on scum. This has been a very frustrating game to play.

The idea that I'm trying to "seem more townie" is a bit absurd when you consider the way I've played. I'm just doing my best to get townies working together.

Instead, I have Fumuki getting manipuated to do something she doesnt want to do.

I have Creature self-voting.

I have GIF voting to avoid a no lynch instead of scumhunting properly.

NSG's never around when you need her most.

And RC's just pushing my lynch while refusing to engage iwth me about the game, while continuing to spread misinformation about me (e.g. saying that I'm doing nothing when it's most others who aren't doing much).

What the fuck am I supposed to do, Emperor?

I need guidance. How am I supposed to play this game to avoid my lynch while bringing the town together to lynch scum? I don't understand what I should have done differnetly.

[Shoshin]

GIF, please look at how RC manipulated Fumuki into voting me. What's your response to that?

Also, RC thinks Fumuki is scum too.

Fumuki's town.

The question you need to ask is why RC isn't townreading Fumuki.

[Shoshin]

please don't vote people just because.

I wish people followed good advice more often.

[Shoshin]

shoshin openly lurked out of the vast majority of the day phase

Blatant lie from RC.

[Shoshin]

He's gaslighting Fumuki to get her to vote me. I don't know how town RC ever feels comfortable doing this to get me lynched.

[Shoshin]

There's 4 votes on me, 4 votes on Worm.

I think.

[Shoshin]

I hold out hope that other players will check in before deadline.

I also think we should lobby our mod for an extension.

[Shoshin]

Creature's self-voting even though he suggested I'm strong town. He's not around.

NSG doesn't seem to be around & I like to think she wouldn't let me get lynched over Worm if she were here.

Fumuki should change her vote off me. She got straight-up manipulated into voting me by RC.

I think in general if players were around to discuss with me then this game would look different.

[Shoshin]

There's a part of me that thinks RC might even have waited until the last minute to push my lynch because he knew I wouldn't have the time to counter all of his manipulation.

[Shoshin]

Eyes/Creature both townread me. They're not around.

[Shoshin]

Counterwagon?

You were a wagon earlier in the day.

Worm was a wagon earlier in the day.

RC voted for both these wagons at different points.

But then RC out of nowhere starts pushing my lynch with only hours left in the day. Egix/Worm immediately jumped on my wagon. And here we are.

[Shoshin]

RC also manipulated Fumuki into voting me even though Fumuki didn't agree with it. You can review this exchange a couple pages back. RC states false & misleading things about me, Fumuki tries to push back a little, and RC basically just gaslights the shit out of Fumuki until she votes me. If anything should steer you away from my wagon, it's the way RC's pushing it.

[Shoshin]

RC's a better lynch than me. Can we actually lynch him? I don't know. Worm's also a better lynch than me.

In terms of "obsession," that isn't how I'd characterize what I'm saying. RC's leading a mislynch on me by aggressively manipulating my strongest townread into voting me against their will, & he's doing it at the end of the day when there's little hope for me to mount a defense or to lead a counterwagon on him. I want to make sure that if I'm lynched people at least see the things I'm pointing out. I wouldn't call this "obsession," it's just pointing out the reality of what's happening to me right now. What don't you understand about this?

[Shoshin]

Unless you're seeking a flash wagon on RC, I do not understand the obsession here.

If you're about to be mislynched by someone aggressively manipulating players into voting you, & there's no time in the day phase to wagon that player, what would you do? Stay silent about what they're doing?

[Shoshin]

Right now, I think it's dumb to lynch active players though.

If you believe this, then you should naturally be inclined towards voting Worm over me. Am I correct in assuming this?

[Shoshin]

I already guessed the team as RC/Egix/Worm, and that was before RC started pushing my lynch. It so happens that these three coordinated a push on me at the last minute of this day phase when it looked like Worm was the lynch.

I've been very clear about saying I'm confident the entirety of scum are within the group of RC, Egix, Worm, Emperor, or you, Titus. And I'm happy to lynch anyone in that group today, though I've repeatedly said that your predecessor (Celica) was the towniest of this group.

[Shoshin]

The only thing that gives me pause about saying RC's scum is his high post count.

[Shoshin]

If I could lynch anyone today, it'd probably be Egix. I can't make this lynch happen (or RC's lynch) so I'm voting Worm. I don't see what's difficult to understand about my position.

[Shoshin]

I have townreads on Fumuki, Creature, NSG, GIF, and Eyes.

[Shoshin]

If I'm wrong about any of those reads, it's Eyes.

[Shoshin]

Fumuki, Creature, NSG, & GIF are locktown for me.

[Shoshin]

I initially townread Celica & that was part of why I ended up with a pool of RC/Egix/Worm. GIF pointed out a fairly scummy post from Celica so that's why you're no longer town, Titus. But from your perspective of knowing you're town, this game's fairly simple to solve.

[Shoshin]

In order of most town to most scummy:

Fumuki
Creature
GIF
NSG
Eyes
Titus/Emperor
RC/Worm
Egix

[Shoshin]

I don't think my reasons for townreading these players will make sense to anyone but me but I'll try to explain:

Fumuki's town because the way she played around RC/Wizard/Baezu on D1 strongly indicates town. I also think Fumuki's push on me for meta reasons when Fumuki doesn't even know me, and the sheer level of engagement that Fumuki brought to the game, almost never comes from scum. It showed someone who was misguided but genuine in their attempts to sort me. I'm also confident in this read in part because of NSG, whose reasons for townreading Fumuki helped convince me as well.

Creature's town because the way he played around Baezu on D1 strongly suggests he's town (calling him scum after the point where scum would have known Baezu was doctor), & Creature's self-vote almost never comes from scum him in this context whereas I've seen him do it as town before. Also, he's defending me at a time when he had no reason to, especially since he had been calling me "underwhelming" earlier in the game and easily could have jumped on my wagon. Lack of opportunism is strongly town indicative for Creature.

GIF's town because of how closely he read through earlier posts in the game, specifically the Eyes/RC interactions & Celica's posts. I also think his decision to vote me to avoid a no lynch, followed by quickly voting Worm, comes from town more often than not. He could have lurked this out instead of unvoting me if he were scum.

NSG's town based in part on the way she interacted around RC, the fact that she correctly convinced me to townread Fumuki when I wasn't sure about that, in effect dismantling our potential 1v1, and because her reads make sense from her perspective of not knowing whether I'm town. I think she's wrong about Egix but otherwise on the right track. I also like that how she approached reading the gamestate in deciding to vote for Worm.

I say Eyes is town in part because I'm sheeping GIF's read on the slot, and in part because I agree with his reasoning that Eyes wouldn't have interacted with RC the way she did if Eyes were scum. I also like that Eyes agrees with all my reads. That's a very good sign.

I have something else for you to consider, Titus.

When RC, GIF, Egix, and Worm voted for your slot, putting you at L-2, I argued in support of lynching within RC/Egix/Worm. If I were scum, I easily could have gone along with that mislynch. But instead, I pushed against it. If you're town, you should view that as town indicative for me.

[Shoshin]

I think simplistic thinking is underrated in mafia, & I think more towns lose to overthinking than underthinking.

I don't think I ever said your reads were terrible so I don't know where that comes from? Are you saying you scumread my townreads? Which ones?

How is my reads list opportunistic? I don't understand what you're saying about "show and change" and "reconsider." I'm always going to reconsider reads as the game progresses. But in this moment, they're locktown.

[Shoshin]

First, if my reads are terrible and that list is mostly town, scum you would want me alive. Second, who was the alternative when I was wagoned?

I'm struggling to understand what you're saying in the first point. If I were scum, I'd be doing what I could to survive in a game where lots of people have expressed an interest in lynching me, & that means taking the opportunity to lynch you when presented with it. I don't overthink things as scum, same as I try not to overthink as town.

I'm not sure what you mean by alternative. When you were wagoned, votes were split across the board. You were the first wagon wagon of the day. I was voting Egix at the time. I think Eyes voted Worm at some point. And then NSG voted Worm as well, based on some gamestate reasoning (specifically the fact that lots of players had expressed scumreads on Worm but nobody was voting him). I followed up on Worm because he was one of my scumreads & I realized that Egix wasn't going to happen today since too many players townread that slot.

[Shoshin]

I don't think I ever said your reads were terrible so I don't know where that comes from? Are you saying you scumread my townreads? Which ones?

I think either you're confused or playing confused. The point was scum you would white knight my prior slot holder if the reads were terrible as the slot would be proscum.

This isn't what I was doing. Why are you assuming your slot's reads were terrible?

[Shoshin]

How is my reads list opportunistic? I don't understand what you're saying about "show and change" and "reconsider." I'm always going to reconsider reads as the game progresses. But in this moment, they're locktown.

All you're lockdown reads are Mia for the most part capable of showing at the last moment.

I've had these reads since before they were Mia...

[Shoshin]

Can we please have an extension, mcqueen? This is ridiculous.

[Shoshin]

What a joke of a game.

[Shoshin]

No, brass is obvious to read.

[Shoshin]

He's probably one of the easiest players to read on the site.

[Shoshin]

Thank fucking god.

[Shoshin]

I'm done playing this for tonight.

[Shoshin]

I was favoring lynching Shosin too but it was based on info rather than Shoshin being scummy which didn't sit right.

What information would you gain from my lynch? And how would lynching me provide more information than lynching Worm?

[Shoshin]

What's my flip tell you about RC's alignment/motivation, Titus?

[Shoshin]

You have to consider that we weren't yet confirmed to be getting an extension and there wasn't much time left at that time. It seemed to me like the Celica wagon was losing steam and yours was gaining, so I didn't want to risk a no-lynch by leaving my vote where it was.

This doesn't make any sense.

Celica was at three votes, I was at two, and Worm was at four. If you're trying to avoid a no lynch, why didn't you vote for Worm? And how would voting me increase the likelihood of a lynch over keeping your vote on Celica?

[Shoshin]

This is the progression of votes:

Spoiler:

Votecount 2.3

Celica (4)

- Dr Worm 1512, GuyInFreezer 1520, Fumuki 1696, Egix96 1810

Dr Worm (3)

- Eyes without a face 1372, NorthSideGal 1795, Shoshin 1873

Creature (2)

- RadiantCowbells 1844, Crerature 1876

Not Voting (2) - Emperor flippyNips, Celica

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

The deadline is on Monday, April 29, 2019 at 11:15 pm EST, which is in (expired on 2019-04-29 22:15:00).

Vedith's notes
Dr Worm, NorthSideGal, and Celica are all getting fun time prods.
I will suggest to McQueen for an extension after prods have been received / replacements made.
You're all beautiful players \o/

Please let me know if I've made any errors, thank you!

VOTE: shoshin

more sure here but still think that's the team.

VOTE: SHOESHINE

Page 76 made me cringe.

Whatever, if we're thunderdoming this then the choice is obvious for me.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Shoshin

I got Worm's wagon wrong -- he was at three votes when Egix voted me -- but my broader point still holds. When Egix voted me, Celica had three votes while I had two.

Yet Egix says he voted me to prevent a no lynch? That doesn't square with the game at all. Creature had just expressed an unwillingness to lynch me (post 1902). Eyes made it clear that I was one of her top townreads, so she wasn't going to vote me anytime soon. I had recently expressed an openness to voting Celica (starting in post 1836 and continuing up to the point Egix voted me).

[Shoshin]

It seemed to me like the Celica wagon was losing steam and yours was gaining, so I didn't want to risk a no-lynch by leaving my vote where it was.

RC/Worm voting me was indication that my wagon had more steam than Celica's? Please explain how you came to this conclusion.

[Shoshin]

I don't know what that means.

[Shoshin]

I don't know what you mean by the term "ninja."

[Shoshin]

Egix, why townread Worm?

[Shoshin]

Eyes, what're your current reads? I'd like an updated list from you given all the new posts in the game.

[Shoshin]

I'd like to know your reads as well, Titus.

[Shoshin]

The reason why I thought Celica wasn't likely to be lynched any more was because Cowbells was all like "we're lynching me or Shosh today!" and since there's a chance he's the cop's N1 peek I thought I might as well go along with that.

You don't think there's a chance cop checked me?

Did you see anyone voting RC? Why'd you follow RC without questioning his "1v1" premise?

[Shoshin]

RC, Shoshin and I are never getting lynched.

What did you think of this post when you read it, Egix?

[Shoshin]

No one should answer the first question Shoshin asked.

Why not?

From the perspective of everyone but the cop, the answer to that question is, "yes." Scum know that cop didn't check them because there wasn't a guilty. And town know don't now who cop checked. As such, it's possible that I was checked.

I'd argue it's more likely I was checked than RC because there's more players with strong townreads on me than RC.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Egix

I think this is scum.

[Shoshin]

Worm's plausible scum as well but I'm more confident on Egix.

I'd like to have a conversation with anyone who townreads Egix at this point.

[Shoshin]

I thought those were empty words.

What's your read on Creature?

[Shoshin]

I disagree, Titus. Yes, cops might behave in all sorts of different ways, but that doesn't change the fact that Egix's reasoning doesn't make sense. And I don't see how an answer to my question will help the scum find the cops. You saying otherwise doesn't make it so.

If RC's a cop, it's more than obvious who he checked & it isn't me.

What's your read on Egix?

[Shoshin]

Why is Egix town, Eyes?

[Shoshin]

I don't remember why I had him as a town lean. It was based on D1 play though.

Why aren't you developing or reevaluating this read based on play in D2?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Shosin

I am done. You exasperate me.

Do you think I'm scum?

What's your read on Egix?

[Shoshin]

L minus 2

This was L-1.

[Shoshin]

Hmm, L-2 actually since brass voted Egix. That's nice to know.

[Shoshin]

Have you read the game? It'd be nice if you offered your thoughts.

[Shoshin]

I recommend unvoting me, Fumuki.

I'd like your thoughts on Titus.

[Shoshin]

What don't you understand about my play on D1?

[Shoshin]

I don't know how to answer that, Fumuki.

I was in five or six games at the time & felt overwhelmed. That probably explains most of your concerns?

[Shoshin]

I wasn't using a specific strategy if that's what you're wondering.

[Shoshin]

@Fumuki

I think one of the ongoing games is finished? I replaced out of a couple.

In the finished game, I was town & ended up a mislynch because I posted less than here.

If I rolled scum after Fire, I'd be townread by everyone in the game. I'd also likely replace out after being widely townread because I was too busy to care about scum games.

I disagree that my scum play doesn't work. I'm extremely good at being townread. I think I've lost scum games in the past mostly because of setup issues, not because of my play.

I think there's very clear differences between my town play & scum play. The town play is directed towards lynching scum, whereas the scum play is directed towards looking town. This game clearly shows the former.

[Shoshin]

RC thought the scum was us three. A funny thought.

[Shoshin]

I disagree that my scum play doesn't work.

This isn't my opinion, it was your own in Fire Mountain (where you were town).

You clearly said that your scum play needed a bit of work because you couldn't win even though you were town read in those games.

I'm of the opinion that you actually have a strong scum game.

I said I was very good at being townread as scum but still lost 100% of my scum games. I think reflecting on recent experiences, I've realized that I'm much better as scum than I ever realized, especially at getting townread & at making more big-picture decisions. You'll have to take my word on this because I can't prove it to you at this time.

I promise you this much. If I were scum this game, I wouldn't ever have come this close to getting lynched.

[Shoshin]

RC thought the scum was us three. A funny thought.

That's 0/3 already

As I said before, he was having a very bad game or he's scum.

[Shoshin]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=79139

[Shoshin]

I was Jungle.

[Shoshin]

It was another game where I pushed scum on D1 & D2. Even when inactive, I'm still fairly accurate in reads. As I've said before, I'm okay applying BoP to myself. At the very least, that's a much better way to sort me than lynching for inactivity.

[Shoshin]

If you're just looking at my ISO, you won't realize how inactive I was.

[Shoshin]

Look at how much I posted in that game on the dates that this game started. Then compare posting patterns here with posting patterns there.

Timing matters a lot.

[Shoshin]

Anyway, it doesn't matter. We need to solve this game.

Can you assume I'm town for the moment? This will make solving much easier as it'll allow us to work together & discuss as a team.

[Shoshin]

Let me put this another way.

Lynching me before giving me a chance to lynch scum is a very bad idea.

[Shoshin]

Assuming I'm town, who are the scum? There's other players in the game besides me. What're your reads?

[Shoshin]

Creature, please put your vote on someone more useful than yourself.

Worm or Egix are good options.

[Shoshin]

If Egix is town, maybe Eyes/Worm/Titus as scum? I don't know.

[Shoshin]

Maybe Emperor.

[Shoshin]

Your last game ever?

[Shoshin]

I like you & hope we have a chance to play more games. But if this if the only one, let's please make it a memorable one!

[Shoshin]

Labyrinth Mafia.

[Shoshin]

And almost every game since.

[Shoshin]

Shoshin, what made your change your mind on your read on me?

I think the amount of work you put into the game, not only in thread but reading outside meta, was too much to ignore. I initially scumread you because I thought you were faking meta but the more I thought about this the more likely it seemed that you genuinely believed what you were saying.

[Shoshin]

Explain this in more detail?

Isn't GiF trying to associate me with Celica so quickly something that a possible Celica's scumbuddy would do?

To already have a narrative in case of their partner flipping?

Unlikely but possible.

[Shoshin]

I'd appreciate if you could assume I'm town for today. This will make solving together a lot easier.

[Shoshin]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=79402

I recommend reading this.

[Shoshin]

For context, I was scum in that game.

I was widely townread by everyone.

I ended up getting replaced.

The game occurred during this game so you can see the tangible difference in play.

[Shoshin]

I need you to start sorting other players, Fumuki. I don't need your help to sort me.

[Shoshin]

So that we can solve the game.

[Shoshin]

It's just annoying that while I'm around you're talking about things I already know instead of working with me to solve the stuff I don't know.

[Shoshin]

Assuming I'm town, who are the scum?

This, Fumuki.

[Shoshin]

So your reads are looking similar to mine, but my play doesn't make sense? You need to stop overthinking, Fumuki. It's going to help you do better in your games, I promise.

GIF's likely town. So the solve is either Worm/Egix/Brass or Worm/Egix/Titus.

[Shoshin]

I've been called "soul-less" before as town.

[Shoshin]

I don't think NSG will vote me over Egix. But if she does, that's a very bad sign about her alignment.

[Shoshin]

I'm okay voting Worm if Egix isn't happening.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Worm

[Shoshin]

Who are you are to call my play "sub-optimal," Fumuki? I'm told that every game by the way & thought you'd be different. But I guess not.

[Shoshin]

I'm not scum.

[Shoshin]

Worm's flipping scum by the way. Either that, or he's lying about having a guilty on me.

[Shoshin]

If I were a cop, I'd probably fake a guilty if I was very confident in the read. I've faked an innocent before to positive effect.

[Shoshin]

No, Titus doesn't get town points under either flip.

[Shoshin]

No, GIF's likely town.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Egix

[Shoshin]

You think Egix is town?

[Shoshin]

I don't get how you're pushing my lynch here.

[Shoshin]

Scum is within Egix/Titus/Clemency/Emperor/Brass. If doctor/cop is within this group of five, I think it'd be helpful for them to claim at this time to help narrow things down.

[Shoshin]

Icon, Eyes, & Creature:

I need you three to vote with me today on Egix. Please don't fuck this up.

[Shoshin]

I think NSG's slot is especially scummy in retrospect, for leading a mislynch on Worm & for defending the shit out of Egix/Titus.

My current solve is Egix/Titus/NSG, with a possibility of Emperor or Brass being scum (though less likely than those first three). Egix is the scummiest by far.

Icon, Eyes, & Creature are town. I'm very confident on this.

[Shoshin]

Emperor, why the fuck are you voting me? I don't get it. How can you think I'm scummier than players like Egix, Titus, or NSG?

[Shoshin]

What is your read on those three?

[Shoshin]

I don't get how you're pushing my lynch here.

I think scum swung to worm to save you
No one in their right mind thinks that lurktastic slot was more of a threat to the scumteam. So if he flipped town, the simplest conclusion is scum wanted you alive. Therefore, you're either scum or your reads are garbage.

The question you should ask is why Egix couldn't be lynched over Worm. I wasn't the only & primary alternative to Worm. Egix was under much greater pressure of being lynched after we got the extension that relieved pressure on me.

[Shoshin]

Therefore, you're either scum or your reads are garbage.

People call my reads garbage every game until post-game, when they realize I had the best reads in the game.

This one is probably the same.

[Shoshin]

Titus, why have you refused to take a position about Egix the entire game?

Why'd you immediately vote me as the Egix wagon started gaining steam yesterday? Assuming Egix is scum, that timing is quite coincidental, especially in light of your refusal to take a position about Egix's alignment.

[Shoshin]

I haven't refused to take a stance on Egix's alignment. That's a horrible misrepresentation. Hell, if you want to know my stance on anyone just ask. Egix is likely town given the situation and the voting patterns.

You've been asked for your read on Egix multiple times by me & others, including Egix himself. This is the first time you've said anything about Egix despite these questions.

What about the voting patterns makes Egix likely town?

[Shoshin]

I don't get how you're pushing my lynch here.

I think scum swung to worm to save you
No one in their right mind thinks that lurktastic slot was more of a threat to the scumteam. So if he flipped town, the simplest conclusion is scum wanted you alive. Therefore, you're either scum or your reads are garbage.

The question you should ask is why Egix couldn't be lynched over Worm. I wasn't the only & primary alternative to Worm. Egix was under much greater pressure of being lynched after we got the extension that relieved pressure on me.

Well, probably because scum know most of the town has zero interest in helping you mislynch him.

So you think Brass/Fumuki are scum?

[Shoshin]

You haven't answered why voting patterns point to Egix as likely town.

[Shoshin]

I didn't steer town towards the Worm lynch so I'm not sure how you can say I steered town wrong? I wanted Egix lynched, after all.

[Shoshin]

Let's test your theory, Titus. If we assume scum wanted me alive over Worm, you're saying that scum voted for Worm over me, correct? And if so, that would mean the people pushing me over Worm are also town? Is that what you're saying, Titus?

[Shoshin]

I strongly pushed towards Egix.

Worm was a compromise because I couldn't get Egix lynched.

[Shoshin]

You're mischaracterizing my play, Titus.

[Shoshin]

I will never lynch Icon or Eyes.

Icon, because the amount of effort Fumuki put into the game isn't something that comes from scum Fumuki.

Eyes, because GIF's death. GIF was probably killed because scum thought he was cop, and GIF's posts strongly suggest that he had an innocent result on Eyes if read them from this perspective.

I'd like to have a conversation about the game with both these players when they're around.

[Shoshin]

The idea that scum preferred a lynch on Worm over me isn't clear at all. I don't see why Titus makes that assumption.

I was put at L-1 yesterday with Emperor about to hammer me. I survived because GIF, a townie, switched his vote to Worm. Then, after GIF switched his vote, Fumuki (another townie) also switched votes to Worm. This wasn't scum's doing, it was town's. There's no reason to assume that scum preferred Worm's lynch over mine when the two votes that changed the direction of the game came from townies (GIF & Fumuki).

I think it's very concerning that Titus makes this shitty assumption about the voting patterns while mischaracterizing the basis of my reads. Thoughts?

[Shoshin]

Creature, why aren't you voting Egix yet?

[Shoshin]

Emperor, do you agree with my reasoning that makes Eyes town?

[Shoshin]

I don’t know who started the wagon tho. I thought there was a post that had said “why the fuck hasn’t Worm been a wagon yet” then from there it took off & there was no turning back.

That post was from NSG.

[Shoshin]

Icon, what are your concerns about me?

[Shoshin]

@Emperor:

i'm rarely sure of anything.

not especially sure, in this situation, but enough that i believed that it was warranted and did it in the first place.

i'm voting him right now half because i don't like his celica vote and half because i find it odd that he hasn't been wagoned.

This is where NSG says it's odd that Worm hasn't been wagoned.

[Shoshin]

So your’re saying Eyes is town cos someone who was not the cop hinted that they had a innocent result on Eyes?

Yes, because scum likely tried to kill the cop, and if scum thought GIF was cop, it means they thought he had an innocent result on Eyes.

[Shoshin]

If Eyes is scum, you have to believe that scum killed GIF despite thinking that GIF wasn't a cop.

[Shoshin]

My role PM is green. My teammates are you & Eyes.

[Shoshin]

Eyes wasn't a replacement.

And I'm not pocketing you. I'm in the unfortunate position where I townread you despite the fact that you scumread for it.

[Shoshin]

Fumuki (the person you replaced) was my strongest townread yesterday.

[Shoshin]

Why do you disagree with the reasoning on Eyes? Saying it's WIFOM doesn't mean it's wrong -- everything in mafia is WIFOM.

[Shoshin]

Icon, it's not as simple as based on "activity" so much as the degree of effort Fumuki went to to understand the meta of different players in this game, along with the fact that Fumuki is very unlikely to do this as scum based on what I know about Fumuki. I gave a lot more detail about my Fumuki read yesterday.

As for Eyes, let me clarify the reasoning:

1. If Eyes is scum, scum knew that GIF wasn't the cop because GIF's strongest townread -- a rare "locktown" from GIF -- was Eyes.

2. Scum are unlikely to kill someone who they believe 100% isn't the cop just for the sake of "WIFOM." After all, it means a real cop continues to get results.

3. Scum killed GIF.

4. Therefore, it's unlikely that Eyes is scum.

That reasoning isn't scummy. Also, you're misunderstanding if you think that's the only reason I townread Eyes. I townread Eyes yesterday as well before GIF's death.I agreed with GIF's reasoning on why Eyes was "locktown." GIF's death simply confirms the read.

[Shoshin]

Icon, I know you're town so this is very frustrating if you think I'm scum here. At the very least, I urge you to reevaluate your read on me since you've scumread me in every game we've played together where I've been town. You need to recalibrate how you read me.

[Shoshin]

Innocent

Like, even your predecessor said as much, Icon. Do you disagree with this from someone who you KNOW is town?

[Shoshin]

what games have we played together?

I'm Jungle Medicine. You scumread me both games where I was town.

[Shoshin]

Yes, I'm Jungle. There's even a part of this game where I talk with RC about it for proof.

[Shoshin]

If I were scum in a game this apathetic, I wouldn't be trying anything close to as hard as I am here. I have two recently finished scum games for reference. I was replaced in one of them (Brass can confirm this because he modded the game), and in the other I was mislynched while posting once every few days with multiple prods & never saying anything substantive at all. There's just no reason for me to be tryharding this game with the degree of apathy here.

[Shoshin]

what do you think of massclaim?

I was the first to propose it... it's like you don't read my posts or something?

[Shoshin]

Icon, can you please vote Egix with me? As I said yesterday, you can BoP me on this.

[Shoshin]

Titus trying to challenge the townread on Eyes is scummy as hell by the way. She's pointing out all sorts of speculative possibilities instead of addressing the substance of my analysis, which is based around what's probable.

It's probable that scum don't kill someone who they're 100% confident isn't cop. The existence of other possibilities doesn't change the simple fact of probability here.

[Shoshin]

GIF replaced out, Titus.

[Shoshin]

Town the worst sheeps me in almost all cases. The idea that scum me kills him is hilariously improbable.

[Shoshin]

A GiF kill makes sense if the town are lurkers.

You're the most active player besides myself. If you're town, wouldn't that disprove your theory?

Why would scum kill the worst instead of you?

[Shoshin]

GIF wasn't universally townread. He was one of Fumuki's top scumreads.

[Shoshin]

What're your reads?

[Shoshin]

I'm not as confident on town Creature as I am on Icon/Eyes but this:

Creature's town because the way he played around Baezu on D1 strongly suggests he's town (calling him scum after the point where scum would have known Baezu was doctor), & Creature's self-vote almost never comes from scum him in this context whereas I've seen him do it as town before. Also, he's defending me at a time when he had no reason to, especially since he had been calling me "underwhelming" earlier in the game and easily could have jumped on my wagon. Lack of opportunism is strongly town indicative for Creature.

Egix, why vote Creature over Titus?

[Shoshin]

Shoshin is the scummiest slot in the game by a bunch for me. Buki had it right D1, and the reasons for talking oneself out of it are fundamentally flawed. I won't restate Buki's original push.

Buki's reasons for scumreading me on D1 were based on faulty meta. Buki later realized his reasons were wrong when he took a deeper dive into my meta. Why do you agree with Buki's incomplete meta? Have you read all my games like him?

- She started doing stuff!
Well yes, but half the time she continued to post "I'm doing stuff", "Imagine how you would read me if I was doing stuff", "And X could be scum, or X could also be town, I'm doing stuff". There was nothing like a groundfloor wagon with original thought or mounting a defense for a wagoned player. It is not the kind of stuff that makes it seem like our sample size was too small before, it is the kind of thing that makes it look like a scientist was made aware her research results were being deemed unsatisfactory

I don't understand what you're saying here. Can you clarify?

- She started engaging and enjoying the game!
This is like, backwards, this game is opposite day in lots of ways and this one is actually problematic. Having a considerably better time in the thread when you're not under pressure can easily lean scum, not town, because for scum that pressure is more stressful. And it is paradoxical and troubling to me for Shoshin to be so unengaged early on in the game, when this game didn't suck, and to start kicking it into gear later on, when this game was actually much more sucky. The potential explanations for her having a jollier time are not town-scented ones. Less pressure, cool we got a mislynch, hey the mod let me PM some friends starting with N1. It's the opposite of town slots that have gotten bogged down as this objectively vietnamified game has progressed.

1. I'm not enjoying this game. I hate this game a lot.

2. I was put at L-1 on D2 & nearly lynched so I don't understand what you mean by "not under pressure." I've been pressured the entire game.

3. I was unengaged in all my games during the period of D1 where I was unengaged. I specifically linked a game where I was town during the same period in this game's D1 where I was less active than here & mislynched.

4. D1 sucked at all stages of the game.

5. Where do you see "explanations" for "a jollier time"? Please quote specific posts. What isn't "town" about these explanations?

And finally and probably most importantly, Dr. Worm said he investigated Shoeshine and she is scum. We should honor his memory. It's the least we could do after not giving him an opportunity to fakeclaim cop as VT.

Worm thinking I'm scum doesn't make me scum. Why should we "honor his memory"? What kind of logic is that? If we honored the memory of Wizard, who was lynched on D1, we'd be lynching your slot.

[Shoshin]

@Shoshin: Can we lynch Titus? Please? Pretty please?

I mean, I know the Cop "should" have checked that slot already, which is why I keep thinking they might be town after all, but I can't help feeling Titus is being manipulative and really sucks at it.

I'm going to insist on lynching Egix today. There's a small chance Titus is bad town whereas there's no world where Egix is town.

[Shoshin]

Scum Egix strongly points to Titus as scum but I still rather lynch Egix today.

[Shoshin]

Eyes, the Titus slot is Celica & Pops is the RC slot.

[Shoshin]

Well yes, but half the time she continued to post "I'm doing stuff", "Imagine how you would read me if I was doing stuff", "And X could be scum, or X could also be town, I'm doing stuff".

I think it's unfair to characterize my play this way.

[Shoshin]

According to RC, Celica is a very strong scum player.

[Shoshin]

Creature, please vote Egix. Please.

[Shoshin]

You NEED to use your vote today. You didn't use it yesterday. Today, you must.

Town has no chance of getting five votes on scum unless you use your vote.

[Shoshin]

You helped cause that lynch, Creature.

If you voted Egix yesterday, Fumuki would have voted Egix & everything could be different today.

[Shoshin]

Pops, you agree with all my reads...