Mini 2097 - Make Me Regret This Game Over

[jjh927]

Although I really shouldn't let the PT shit stand

[jjh927]

So yeah, on the PT shit:

1. You're accusing me of lying about stuff in the PT BEFORE deb actually died. This is actually moronic and you should be able to understand that
2.This should probably indicate to you that me and deb were posting in the pt and on good terms:

Wait there absolutely is something

We set up a means to talk to each other after the PT closed

If we said eels in a post, then the 5th word in every post after that would form a message. The message stops when a post contains the word nana

Deb said hello to me at eod because he could

Leave him alone he is precious like Nana's back hair

We have shaved it as she began to have back problems from the length and weight of the hair.

I trust that you have woven the hair into a fine garment for Nana, yes?

A waste of such a resource would be worthy of the merciless three shoe beating.

She decided to have it made into a nice sweater for one of her favorite pet eels.

You could even say hello if you were to come with me to the old country.

The burden of hospitality is never too great for Nana.

3: I can reveal what deb's information is if it would help because mastina can confirm it but it won't help at all

[jjh927]

Not arguing against the other shit is almost causing me pain but I'd much rather see what other people do

[jjh927]

mfw I don’t even get a PT

You should probably pm the mod regarding access to the closed pt you should have had with someone

If it has something in it, even if the conversation is one-sided it's stuff your slot should have

[jjh927]

That's a pretty weird way of looking at things considering my TL push was primarily to drum up activity

[jjh927]

That was good posting day

[jjh927]

I'll give you a choice; I'll either respond to your case now or we can wait for other people to actually look at it

I don't really have a preference any more since my desire to say things has been increasing but it'd be nice to be able to place people a bit better based on responses

[jjh927]

EP/jjh scum

eth0s heavy post

for instance, he says that he's waiting for eth0s' heavy post (459), but after that comes does he engage with it? no, he continues hard pushing kori!scum rather than talking about whether kori is plausible town or not (464465). He takes the time to engage with the post, but only

after

day has ended and we're in twilight, in 537. aka, he's trying to distance himself from the mislynch by explaining why he wasn't persuaded by the post. but if you're town, why not engage the arguments first while events are still in motion? trying to look like you're involved in the process of sorting after the possibility of doing so has collapsed is scummy, and it's searching for town points while not actually being towny.

I said that because it had been like 2 hours since eth0s said he was making a heavy post. Those posts you link there, 464 and 465, are my immediate response to said post. I later engage with the post in detail simply because eth0s seemed upset with the amount of time I had given it.

A specific thing in your argument here really stands out as well- "trying to distance himself fro the mislynch by explaining why he wasn't persuaded by the post." - Huh? Are you reading what you're typing? I don't understand what you think scum!me would be trying to achieve here, or how you think it would be achieved, or literally anything there.

interactions with me and twilight "kori is still scum" behaviour

then there's also his weird interactions with me, and his attitude of kori!scum is still a thing despite kori literally having been lynched and saying he's town i.e. erasure of the incentive to lie. I think this is scum doubling down so that they can soak some of the heat for the mislynch they pushed by saying "no, look, I was SO CONVINCED he was scum, look how I still thought so in twilight even after he was dead and saying he was town!!!!" whereas I think the genuinely towny thing to do there is acknowledge you could have been wrong, and engage with the person to try and get reads/takes on the game that could help town for the next day, even if those reads might be that you're scum for making the push.

Look at my recent newbie (1949) where I self-hammered as town on D2. I was convinced teacher was scum, and he was the same on me. But there was still engagement after the hammer despite irritation where we worked together on the off chance that we were both town to try and provide town with an optimal state for the next day given the self-hammer mistake.

Nah I thought Korina was scum and honestly there's a part of me that still thinks you might be scum just for showing up after the hammer to chastise the shit out of me specifically for it
I wanted you to actually explain why you thought he was town, and you seemed to only think he was town as a default stance because he was posting in twilight

attempts to manipulate framing

I think there's also misreps in jjh's twilight posts, or if not exactly misreps, at least particular and odd framing: let's look at 556. "I don't understand how any sane person could actually townread Korina right now". This is shading (1) presenting anyone who was doubtful as to kori!scum as someone behaving delusionally. Note, this is not the same as saying, "surely you admit kori has good odds of being scum?" which I would have totally agreed with prior to self-hammer and conf!town status. But it's making it look like the reads of anyone who was doubtful are less valuable, and it presents jjh as having followed the only logical course of action by pushing kori hard. When actually, another very reasonable course of action was to just approach the slot with a lot of scepticism and talk it out among the rest of the town during the rest of D1. The speed and severity of the push reads to me as someone who wanted to get Korina done and end day quickly, but that wasn't necessary from a town pov. kori, after changing his role claim, was always going to be a viable D1 lynch. Why doesn't town spend the rest of the day talking out whether or not there are solutions (a la eth0s) or if the scummy outweighs the potential positive utility?

plus there's 558 which is another attempt to devalue Kori's reads despite being the only person we knew would be conf!town at the time. this is important for scum!jjh because he was Kori's strongest SR on death. I don't think town cares so much about devaluing conf!town's reads. I think town chooses to keep scum hunting and to town case themself if needed should the conf!town's reads be followed. the pre-emptive shading and dismissal of the reads (plus the fact that I know one read is good, not that I expect you to be persuaded by this) is scum!motivated, not town!motivated.

I wanted to see someone argue that Korina was town. Nobody did. No sane person could make that argument and I stand by it.

I had evidence Korina's reads were shit in that I know I am town, and furthermore you're skipping over the part where I criticise Korina's scumhunting technique. There are multiple reasons why I put 0 stock in Korina's reads and they have been explained.
Reads aren't just magical things that form that town get. The only thing worth putting stock in is REASONING, and Korina's reasoning was the direct opposite of what is logical, thus I was opposed to the idea of people sheeping them and the idea of putting stock into them seems nonsensical to the point of increasing the likelihood of being scum.

On the speed of the push- fuck that. That wasn't me who self-hammered. Wasn't even me who brought it close. I pushed down hard on the lie, but you're absolutely talking shit here if you think I'm responsible for the quicklynch. You would do well to look at the actual wagon, although Korina was the most at fault for the day ending early by a wide margin. I wanted other people to react to the push. I feel like what you're doing here in this point is FAR beyond what you are accusing me of- "attempts to manipulate framing."

progression in his interaction with me, SoaS most likely to be a NK from jjh

I also think jjh's approach to my slot was weird there. He starts off very hostile "I thought you were meant to be good" but rapidly changes to a conciliatory tone "engaging with you is the only thing concerning me that he might be town". And just now, I found something pretty damning. He says in 570 that, in regard to my point about having healthy scepticism regarding kori slot and going back and forth, that he did go back on it at one point (569) and that "SoaS can confirm that I did so, but I did so in the PT" (570). But SoaS never does this. The game moves on, and he doesn't comment on the point. Now, as has been mentioned by me and by jjh, SoaS is a weird kill. But he's a perfectly logical kill for scum!jjh because that lets him entirely control the narrative of what happened in the PT with SoaS. He can take his voice for himself. And if he didn't in fact do that in the PT, then it stops SoaS from ever pointing that out in the future if his mention of this gets spotted (like I just did).

this also fits with scum!jjh and scum!EP. killing SoaS lets jjh provide additional cover for EP by claiming that deb was TRing him when he died. there's no indication I see of that in the main thread, so all we have to go on is jjh's word that it happened in the PT. I don't really see a good reason to believe that.

I have already argued against this. You call it "pretty damning" when it's frankly a ridiculous point to bring up and makes no logical sense.

inconsistent approach to TL from day-to-day

then look at fuckin 585 "My TL scumread does mostly hinge on Korina!scum fwiw". if this is town!jjh, surely he has a lot more scepticism about TL today? scepticism that was also lacking in his engagement with kori. but he doesn't, he hops onto someone he had a SR on that was "mostly" conditional on something that wasn't true, and he does that instead of engaging with me on EP!scum but instead to draw attention away from EP!scum.

The key takeaway is that, yes, jjh has been doing stuff. But that 'stuff' has been wildly inconsistent with a town mindset and approach to the game.

It did mostly hinge on Korina!scum at the time. It was a fairly lazy scumread; if Korina was scum, TL was absolutely scum. I did not need to do more thinking. Then, Korina flipped town and I did some more thinking, alongside asking deb about reads. I do have more scepticism on TL, yeah. I think you might want to reread some shit.

If you want attention back on EP, let's talk about that vote just there

[jjh927]

My issue at present is that I have way too many townreads but I'm still not agreeing with anything anyone is saying

[jjh927]

VOTE: jjh

I reread mena's case and I'm inclined to agree, jjh does a good job of crafting narratives about other players but they're logically inconsistent. See also him forgetting about his saying that ep and tl are TvT and then mere hours later casing TL

There were over 24 hours between those posts fwiw

[jjh927]

So yeah, on the PT shit:

Spoiler:

1. You're accusing me of lying about stuff in the PT BEFORE deb actually died. This is actually moronic and you should be able to understand that
2.This should probably indicate to you that me and deb were posting in the pt and on good terms:

Wait there absolutely is something

We set up a means to talk to each other after the PT closed

If we said eels in a post, then the 5th word in every post after that would form a message. The message stops when a post contains the word nana

Deb said hello to me at eod because he could

Leave him alone he is precious like Nana's back hair

We have shaved it as she began to have back problems from the length and weight of the hair.

I trust that you have woven the hair into a fine garment for Nana, yes?

A waste of such a resource would be worthy of the merciless three shoe beating.

She decided to have it made into a nice sweater for one of her favorite pet eels.

You could even say hello if you were to come with me to the old country.

The burden of hospitality is never too great for Nana.

3: I can reveal what deb's information is if it would help because mastina can confirm it but it won't help at all

Wow, this is an amazing use of the PT! It's a pity DEB died before you guys could actually use it.

TD and I didn't use our PT very well, it seems.

VOTE: jjh

I reread mena's case and I'm inclined to agree, jjh does a good job of crafting narratives about other players but they're logically inconsistent. See also him forgetting about his saying that ep and tl are TvT and then mere hours later casing TL

I'll admit that I didn't read Mena's case in it's entirety before now, as I assumed most of it would be drawing on a jjh/EP pairing to prove the case (which I know is false). The case actually brings up good points about jjh + it stands on its own without the scum!EP assumption.

I remember reading jjh's insistence on scum!Korina at twilight + thinking that was a bit weird, but I forgot about it shortly after.

VOTE: jjh

How does EP make both of these posts

[jjh927]

I mean, I don't tend to look for things that make me think people are towny when I decide to case someone

[jjh927]

But honestly I'd completely forgotten that that thing actually happened

[jjh927]

Here's a little compilation

I don't think the eth0s/korina interaction strongly implicates either as scum

Either way I don't think Korina is worth voting right now.

yeah this is why Korina is potentially scum... doesn't mean Korina is guiltied scum

"Korina flubbed his role claim" does not equal "Korina is confirmed scum"

Even then powerlynching Korina is a bad move, and I wouldn't be surprised you're scum jjh....

VOTE: jjh927

pedit: actually yeah that's a good point but Korina is untouchable until LYLO

Let me rephrase; why would something that you can recognise as stupidly implausible influence your actions

because I believe it's much more possible that Korina is town flagbearing town... and saying Korina is scum flagbearing scum doesn't mean we're limited to two boxes of possibility.

For the record, I'm inclined to believe Korina is town flagbearing town right now.

more points to "korina can't roleclaim properly"... skimming Korina's ISO pings me null-town

I will refrain from scumreading Korina as Korina is effectively V/LA today

[jjh927]

Yeah pretty much

It's just generally weird how he was so hesitant to vote there but didn't give any good reasons, and even acknowledged at least one given reason as ridiculous

[jjh927]

Your next line is

"But that means it didn't hinge on Korina!scum!"

[jjh927]

Going through the pt with deb again

Here's a picture with all of my picks in it

Spoiler:

Can you guess which one I got as a role PM?

Spoiler: Answer

[jjh927]

You were his first response to me asking about reads, saying his big thought was about you and that he didn't like how you were trying to pocket me so hard

[jjh927]

I'm gonna be honest, I feel like anything I say about mastina's meta will be disagreed with by mastina

[jjh927]

I'm having trouble quantifying a lot of exactly what I'm townreading there and why it is town specifically for mastina, cross-referencing against that one game I've played against her scumgame where I thought she was town because she claimed a very pro-town role that was very leashable to the point where claiming it as scum would be very poor play

But I'm pretty sure she's town

I guess a lot of it is how much adds up with regards to when and why she does the catchup, and what it achieves for her more than anything else. Admittedly, there may well be some of my desire for mastina to be town here slipping in. I realise I may have just typed out a whole lot of nothing, but whatever

[jjh927]

Honestly, Chemist, I think EP's vote is the most suspect

He was against the case, then 2 more people vote, then suddenly he sees merit to it

[jjh927]

I think it's also kinda weird that he didn't vote TL after my case or engage with said case in any way

[jjh927]

I can do both

It's generally a good thing to bounce ideas off of town and there's still a pretty good chance you're sane

[jjh927]

It would be except he posted around it somewhat

[jjh927]

Hey eth0s, can you link the games you've played with TL?

[jjh927]

And then he makes both possible reactions to menalque's case

[jjh927]

I think more regular votecounts would really help make more sense of this

[jjh927]

I'd like to know if I'm a counterwagon to something at which point we also discover that TL was not considered a viable counterwagon

[jjh927]

Or maybe I'm complaining about nothing

VC 1.1

EspressoPatronum (4):

Menalque, TiphaineDeath, TemporalLich, mastina

Elements (2):

Adorable, eth0s

TemporalLich (2):

EspressoPatronum, jjh927

Not voting: Elements, Chemist1422, Elbirn

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2019-10-06 17:40:00) or when a lynch is reached.

prodding elements

Didn't realise EP was voting TL before my case

[jjh927]

I should really read those pages I forgot again

[jjh927]

Doesn't the PT thing effectively invalidate the case

[jjh927]

It pretty much reverses the already weak point about how I might NK deb

I am genuinely annoyed that deb got killed

[jjh927]

Scum me probably fakes a guilty and gives it to deb to claim, then nightkills him.

[jjh927]

That's not self meta

[jjh927]

That's me telling you what the best action for scum in that circumstance is and that I am capable of coming up with it

[jjh927]

No, it's not

[jjh927]

Asking "Why do I do this as scum" is all about covering up awful play with increasing amounts of bollocks about how awful your towngame is

[jjh927]

I'm saying I 100% would never kill deb there because there would be multiple better options unique to myself

[jjh927]

And we're only on this track in the first place because it was suggested that it was advantageous to scum!me to kill deb, which I am quite decisively disproving

[jjh927]

What particular points in Menalque's scumcase on me do you find convincing?

[jjh927]

Asking "Why do I do this as scum" is all about covering up awful play with increasing amounts of bollocks about how awful your towngame is

I would say these two sentences are very much "why do I do this as scum?"

"Why would I claim flagbearer as scum?"
"Why would I kill DEB as scum?"

Am I wrong in saying that you're arguing the former is bad but the latter is not?

There are multiple differences

I did not bring this point of discussion up. It was suggested it was advantageous for me to kill deb as scum, and I have argued against that.
There is logical basis for me not killing deb as scum, which I have argued.
Town!me is unable to kill DEB so this is actually a legitimate way of placing my alignment

[jjh927]

Chemist I am downgrading you from pretty good chance of sanity to probably mostly sane

[jjh927]

The traditional "Why do I do this as scum" is uttered when someone has pointed out something incomprehensibly scummy that you just did and you're just like "Nah I wouldn't do this as scum because it's obviously incomprehensibly scummy"

[jjh927]

What particular points in Menalque's scumcase on me do you find convincing?

His strongest point is your behaviour in twilight re Korina being scum. I see the point on framing the discussion as his next best argument.

@jjh can you link me some of your scum and town games?

I have two recent scumgames

I think in one of them mastina did an analysis of all of my other ones

[jjh927]

Do you still think it's an inconsistency or do I need to continue explaining the different circumstances?

[jjh927]

It's not really an actual game term but I'm mostly pissed off about the phenomenon I have described because of the number of games I have played with boon/fl as of late

[jjh927]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=80094 - vengeful ghosts, my most recent, and my best scumgame, except the best parts happened in the dead thread. Me and DEB almost memed it to victory. This is probably an important read and definitely an entertaining one.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=79782 - Krazy's anime upick, my next most recent, and a pretty damn good day 1 for me but in the rest of it I succumb to my lack of motivation to play scumgames.

And here's Mastina in Krazy's anime upick going over I think my entire meta

jjh as town.
Better example of jjh as town.
Still a solid example of jjh as town.
Another jjh town.
Still good jjh town.
Another good jjh as town.
Here's one of the best jjh as town.
But have another solid one.
Yet none top THE very best jjh town example.

And Contrast.
jjh as scum.
The best example of jjh as scum.
But here's another jjh scumgame.
And this one's probably the second best.

[jjh927]

It's worth noting I almost doubled the size of my main thread iso with postgame talk in vengeful ghosts if that tells you anything about how hype the dead thread shenanigans were

[jjh927]

Just reading the scum thread in that game would probably do it tbh

[jjh927]

Sorry I realize this wasn't why you shared those links

But I think its funny that you brought up Mastina's meta breakdown in that game when, upon reading it, I found that you were scum and mastina was trying to use your meta to support her belief that you were town even though you were guiltied scum

I mean yeah
Last two games I pushed my scumrange a little

Also I wasn't really guiltied scum. FL was hard bussing me with a fake guilty

[jjh927]

VOTE: EP

[jjh927]

I really think we should be lynching in EP and TL

[jjh927]

Eth0s is very town. I think there might be a third scum leading us towards Elements and away from TL and EP, but it isn't Eth0s because he's just town

TL is still my top lynch preference but EP is very close. I voted EP because Mastina was voting there

My EP read developed with his response to the case, which was pretty damn bad imo, and then with his response to me responding to that. He effectively pushed a false hypocrisy instead of discussing the PT point in any real depth

[jjh927]

I've still had doubts looking back at the 1v1 between them but I guess it would make sense if they were both scum too?

[jjh927]

I'm not of a mind to just sheep people because they're town

You can talk to me with logic


I think Elements is only gonna be a lynch here because he's lurking and unless someone can tell me that's AI for him then I think it's a mislynch

I don't know who else could be scum. I've had too many townreads at various points in this day so I'm looking to reevaluate some of the weaker ones, of which I guess Elements is one but I don't feel good about lynching there when we have EP and TL

[jjh927]

I mean

If I vote Elements, either he flips scum or Eth0s said he'd eat a shoe

So I'm not wholly against it after the post by post, especially while EP is being replaced, but rn I'd prefer TL

[jjh927]

That post right there might push the balance for me actually

[jjh927]

VOTE: Elements

This is L-1

[jjh927]

Gonna unvote and prepare to parse this

[/unvote]

[jjh927]

Oops

UNVOTE:

[jjh927]

I did see that and was gonna point that out in a bit but I decided to eat pizza before the inquisition

[jjh927]

Elements, do you play mafia off-site

[jjh927]

I believe the two options here are that he's lying and he's scum or that he's telling the truth and he's town

That isn't going to be a scum role in this setup

[jjh927]

Multiball is unlikely with this damage system

[jjh927]

I'm trying to figure out whether or not bloodhound is actually a thing that Gamma Emerald would be aware of and put in a game

I wanted to rule out Elements having heard the term offsite and using it in a fakeclaim but I can't do that

[jjh927]

VOTE: EP

[jjh927]

Elements isn't lying
Find another lynch



-Scum would lie about an inno for wifom and credibility. The limitation would make sense if he was scum fakeclaiming, but that would be for later down the line. Scum would want to open with an inno here, while keeping the option open for no results in future days.
-
-Claim is specific. "Bloodhound" is an odd thing to throw around, but I think it's less likely to show up as a fakeclaim than a role PM. My only concern here is that Elements said it like people would know what it was, which implies he's seen the role more commonly. I think the differences between the role and a cop line up, though.

-Redacted

-Claim lines up well with the nature of other flips, lending it further legitimacy. Scum here would be lying about the bloodhound bit but not the inaccurate bit imo; the inaccurate modifier reeks of truth.

[jjh927]

There are reasons related to my power that make me think elements is still a good lynch today

If we mislynch then I’ll explain tomorrow why I’m still saying this is a good lynch as of now

No

[jjh927]

Unless it's a hard thing, my setup spec is better than yours

[jjh927]

Unless it's a hard thing, my setup spec is better than yours

I believe the two options here are that he's lying and he's scum or that he's telling the truth and he's town

That isn't going to be a scum role in this setup

Wow such setupspec very intelligent

"Hes either scum or town"

Truly remarkable

That's rude

I was responding to the suggestions that there could be multiball as a result of the claim, while also reiterating that determining whether or not the claim is true is a means by which to place elements.

The setup spec is where I say Elements isn't lying

[jjh927]

She was posting while catching up, Suj

[jjh927]

I'd like to see how Menalque engages with a scumread in eod but I don't know if we'll get to see that

[jjh927]

I'd like to see how Menalque engages with a scumread in eod but I don't know if we'll get to see that

are you talking about you? I'm mostly SRing you conditionally on this flip being red

if it's not then your town equity goes up a lot

No I'm talking about elements

[jjh927]

Shit we should have made code words like jjh and soas did

As an aside, this is like the third time I've used a PT to extend communication into the day thread and I've never seen anyone else do it

[jjh927]

She was posting while catching up, Suj

I fail to see how this precludes her from seeing posts that are within that close proximity to her own. Especially when one is the vote count.

Because she wasn't looking at the page she was posting on

[jjh927]

You might think that but it's not the case

[jjh927]

I'm pretty sure she makes a conscious effort to avoid reading things out of order

[jjh927]

Otherwise we wouldn't have had that fiasco at the end of day 1

[jjh927]

Well damn

[jjh927]

In this game, we have town lying about having scum roles and scum telling the truth about having town roles, and also town not claiming modifiers that they 100% should have done

[jjh927]

I think scum bloodhound implies a traitor, not a 3p

[jjh927]

Umm also deb's info was that there was at least one role in the game that had to do with water.

[jjh927]

Let’s get this done peeps, jjh isn’t living until tomorrow after that end f day plau

I have a day 4 ability and also if I take damage I die

[jjh927]

It sure is a convenient claim for today but I'm claiming it today because it's the right day to claim it

[jjh927]

Also menalque, you're gonna have to do better than eod shit

I was wrong about elements' alignment but that was because I was right about whether or not he was lying.

[jjh927]

He trueclaimed his role

[jjh927]

My reasons for not wanting to lynch there were valid

[jjh927]

The basis of "If he is trueclaiming this role, then he is town" was false.

It's called regular logic

[jjh927]

I think you're somewhat obsessed with objective stances rather than the reasoning behind them

[jjh927]

I claimed that if I take any damage I die because it gives you another way to get rid of me that doesn't involve using a lynch

It is my modifier from being a weak piece of plastic

[jjh927]

Why, if you’re claiming, are you just drizzling facts

Why are you doing it when there’s 1 vote on you

Because you have the option at any point to stop paying attention to me. I think you're town and would rather you don't waste time pushing me the whole day, but I don't mind you scumreading me

[jjh927]

Oh also there's actually no new facts

[jjh927]

Going through the pt with deb again

Here's a picture with all of my picks in it

Spoiler:

Can you guess which one I got as a role PM?

Spoiler: Answer

All of my picks were made of plastic lmao

[jjh927]

Shhhh

[jjh927]

Korina post said TL

Did you not ask mod/ backup mod for PT access because as I said in the previous day, you should have access to that PT even if there's nothing in it

[jjh927]

Why, if you’re claiming, are you just drizzling facts

Why are you doing it when there’s 1 vote on you

Because you have the option at any point to stop paying attention to me. I think you're town and would rather you don't waste time pushing me the whole day, but I don't mind you scumreading me

Okay if we pretend you’re town then go find me the actual scum

Bc rn I think it’s legit just you and mastina

I'm interested in what Mastina does next but I won't elaborate


Honestly I think TL is still a very good bet

[jjh927]

The kill makes sense because TD was obvtown

[jjh927]

The kill makes sense because TD was obvtown

That's really easy to say after seeing TD bleed green...

I'm kinda confused tbh, but TD green makes jjh highly likely to be scum.

VOTE: jjh927

What do you mean by it being easy to say

[jjh927]

Also how the fuck does town!TD lead to scum!me

Like what actually is any of the things you just said

[jjh927]

Oh and L-2
VOTE: jjh

Jjh's signature actually makes a lot of sense because his stance on the korina wagon was atrocious and I'm mad that I somehow still TRed him for his tone and content of questions after that trainwreck.

Pretty sure I hit the nail on the head with my comments on him after his upvote on elements yesterday.

I will go more in depth when I'm off work and not in my phone.

Chemist and adorable need to step it up today. I'm pretty sure there's a scum in there and I'm leaning adorable over chemist at this point.

Mastina I want to know where your head is at as well.

My signature is because of vengeful ghosts. It's not applicable to my scumgame in general

[jjh927]

VOTE: TL

[jjh927]

It's easy to say because confirmation bias is a thing.

Also TD really SRed you jjh

He was obviously town the second he went off the deep end with his logic and from then onwards. This was widely acknowledged.

And no he didn't. He scumread me only while wearing a tinfoil hat that I do not consider representative of his reads in general

[jjh927]

That's pretty much where I'm at but swap mastina and adorable

[jjh927]

and TL is lower than suji

[jjh927]

Less scum than TL, more scum than everyone else in the game

Because I'm getting flashbacks to the time when a load of people lynched scum!mastina while I said she was town because of some role stuff. I've realised I just don't really try to place mastina very hard

[jjh927]

Also unless Adorable's posting style is a very convincing fake designed to be underestimated then I think tonal reads should be very accurate there

[jjh927]

Jjh you've ignored me asking why mastina was a townread all game and now shes a scumread of yours

Thefuck

I'll help you bus your buddy if you want but I'm not happy

VOTE: Mastina

I think she was a townread because it was easy for me to just say she was town and be done with it ngl. I've gained a bit of self awareness

I'm not voting there yet; I'm looking for something when she next starts posting

[jjh927]

Also POE because I'm getting actual townreads on people

[jjh927]

ACTUALLY I SUDDENLY HAVE A SPICY TAKE

[jjh927]

SO WHY DID SOAS DIE IN N1?

I think scum bloodhound implies a traitor, not a 3p

If there's a recruitable traitor in the game, that would explain such a weird kill from scum.

SoaS' posts were full of weird shit, but I think there's one thing that stands out in particular without the context I have given you here:

Deb said hello to me at eod because he could

Leave him alone he is precious like Nana's back hair

We have shaved it as she began to have back problems from the length and weight of the hair.

I trust that you have woven the hair into a fine garment for Nana, yes?

A waste of such a resource would be worthy of the merciless three shoe beating.

She decided to have it made into a nice sweater for one of her favorite pet eels.

You could even say hello if you were to come with me to the old country.

The burden of hospitality is never too great for Nana.

To someone who didn't know about me and SoaS having set up a means by which to communicate in the main thread, this may look particularly weird. Especially:

You could even say hello if you were to come with me to the old country.

And this was ostensibly directed at Elbirn.

[jjh927]

It's very tinfoily and relies on a lot of assumptions, I'll give you that

[jjh927]

I'll discard it and bust it back out again if it turns out I was right post game

[jjh927]

Korina wasn't lynched on setup spec at all

[jjh927]

My failings have been due to town lying and scum telling the truth

[jjh927]

I am claiming a softclear on jjh

We should not be hammering him this early, and probably not at all

Not this early 100% agree.
Not at all is a hard disagree for me.
Especially when korina was lynched largely on setup spec and jjh also unvoted elements based on setup spec.

That Avenue means nothing to me anymore.

Can you just accept that on day 4 I will fullclaim and you can deal with me then, provided I'm not killed by scum OR by someone tapping me gently with this damage mechanic
I am a shitty lynch today

[jjh927]

Okay if we pretend you’re town then go find me the actual scum

Sure.
Two of {Elbirn, EspressoSlot, TL}.
Elements was a scumread yesterday; Elements flipping scum did nothing to change the POE pool. The same four slots still contain all three scum.

VOTE: TemporalLich

Mastina- elements' flip points to there being a traitor and/or a a third party. Does this not concern you anywhere

[jjh927]

I still haven't figured out whether the way mastina talks about her scumgame is AI

[jjh927]

Jjh do you think scum!mastina white knights you here for towncred?

I think Mastina defends me in all situations regardless of both of our alignments

[jjh927]

What I'm kinda interested in RN is what Mastina is seeing different here than my D1 in Krazy's anime upick

[jjh927]

I don’t Like idk why he claims the soft clear on jjh as scum, idk why he doesn’t just let us lynch him

I'm not advocating for scum!chemist by any means but why would elements claim a no result on jjh instead of a guilty? Why would soas get shot? Why would TD get shot? Well the last one makes a little sense I guess for bleeding town but that would apply to a few players.

The motivation of the scum seems very unclear. If this were a newbie game my lynch pool would be all noobs. I'm wondering if this should be something similar? Not quite convinced enough to resort everyone based on this but I think it either eventually comes to that or finding a "good scum player"'s motivation that makes sense.

Btw I'm not reading previews ala mastina style because I'm still working and in my phone and overwhelmed

Elements claiming a guilty at L-1 gets him lynched. The question should be why didn't he claim an inno

[jjh927]

I did ask that question as one of the things that convinced me he was telling the truth about his claim

[jjh927]

Elements didn't claim a result because he didn't need to distance because he was already being bussed

[jjh927]

Elements didn't claim a result because he didn't need to distance because he was already being bussed

I'm more convinced of this after saying it the first time

[jjh927]

I'm less convinced again because of the other scenario where he just didn't want to distance or wifom because people might see through it

[jjh927]

Okay someone riddle me this. water is a part of the flavor or TD's role right? but has nothing to do with the role function itself?

then what is the point of someone being informed that there is at least one player with a role that has something to do with water?

like is that actually just useless info or what

Me and deb both agreed it was pretty bad info

Mastina did somehow figure out what the info was though

[jjh927]

Oh, Shepherd was a backup of my role pretty sure. I probably shouldn't say what said role is but I'm like 95% certain knowing what my flavor is that Shepherd's role is tied to mine.
VOTE: Elements
Would also vote Espresso or Elbirn; these three are reads where Adorable and I seem to have some overlap. (TL is still a personal scumread of mine but Adorable has a townread there, so.)

He claimed his info in our pt fwiw
I also knew it was deb

Then if my guess is right you probably know what liquid my object involves. (Well, there's a chance that this info isn't in that role so maybe not but oh well, can always hope.)

[jjh927]

TL should really be today's lynch though

[jjh927]

What do you think about elements? And don't just give me a short answer

Judging by the ISO, elements is the kind of person you'd want in your slice of township. He votes like a townie and posts like one too. The wanting to sheep SoaS tells me this guy is laidback and doesn't take things seriously. The not wanting to discuss roles is town-indicative or at least not wanting to rolefish in the shining moonlight. The reasoning in 156 is a fairly decent point made. 305 does seem like a weird post considering 304 is required reading for context, but doesn't seem like this indicates elements is a scumlord trying to act towny. 732 is the most recent elements post which is indeed concerning however, it might mean elements is a shadow lurking in the elements.

I don't recall any other serious townreads from TL

[jjh927]

Keep wondering. I have my suspicions

[jjh927]

Let's say it was for postings sake

[jjh927]

Let's just get back to this

What do you think about elements? And don't just give me a short answer

Judging by the ISO, elements is the kind of person you'd want in your slice of township. He votes like a townie and posts like one too. The wanting to sheep SoaS tells me this guy is laidback and doesn't take things seriously. The not wanting to discuss roles is town-indicative or at least not wanting to rolefish in the shining moonlight. The reasoning in 156 is a fairly decent point made. 305 does seem like a weird post considering 304 is required reading for context, but doesn't seem like this indicates elements is a scumlord trying to act towny. 732 is the most recent elements post which is indeed concerning however, it might mean elements is a shadow lurking in the elements.

I don't recall any other serious townreads from TL

[jjh927]

That wasn't a softclaim? That was an explanation of why I have 1 hp

[jjh927]

Let’s get this done peeps, jjh isn’t living until tomorrow after that end f day plau

I have a day 4 ability and also if I take damage I die

This was all the real info

[jjh927]

jjh is guiltied scum

prove me wrong

Nobody has claimed a guilty on me. QED

Alternate proof: I received a town role PM. QED

[jjh927]

jjh is not actually Weak (as in if jjh targets scum, he unavoidably dies)

Indeed, I never claimed weak. I claimed that my flavour is a weak piece of plastic, ie it is not sturdy and is easily broken.

[jjh927]

I think he's flailed so hard he has overexerted himself and is now physically incapable of flailing further

[jjh927]

kinda think TL is trying to bait another vote on him to end day faster before we can finish solving tbh

[jjh927]

Indeed, I never claimed weak. I claimed that my flavour is a weak piece of plastic, ie it is not sturdy and is easily broken.

[jjh927]

jjh is not actually Weak (as in if jjh targets scum, he unavoidably dies)

Indeed, I never claimed weak. I claimed that my flavour is a weak piece of plastic, ie it is not sturdy and is easily broken.

I already called you guiltied scum so I can't turn back now.

[jjh927]

If we're gonna continue this conversation I'll probably just speak in quotes

[jjh927]

kinda think TL is trying to bait another vote on him to end day faster before we can finish solving tbh

[jjh927]

flavour

[jjh927]

Indeed

[jjh927]

at this point maybe...

I'm a Town Inventor...

That’s what your role was actually called in the message from the mod?

Spoiler: Sample Town Role PM

Gamma Emerald

Hello Gamma Emerald! You seem to be fortunate enough to have not been corrupted, so you are aligned with the town. You have been granted powers based on a table, making you a Question Answering Game Mod.

Scattered objects (Game Mod): all the other objects in the game rest on your surface, and you support them by providing moderator services such as vote counts and flips.
How do I make a table? (Question Answering): You will do your best to answer any questions relevant to the setup or mechanics honestly and impartially.

You win when all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town is alive.

TiphaineDeath has TiphaineDied in the night! he was a

Town Copscetic

Hello TiphaineDeath! You seem to be fortunate enough to have not been corrupted, so you are aligned with the town. You have been given abilities based on a Half-full/empty water bottle, making you a Copscetic Townie.

Philosophical quandary (Copscetic): you are a puzzling dilemma of ideology, confusing Cop-type (ones that return whether you meet a criteria or not) investigations so much they fail on you.

You win when all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town is alive.

[jjh927]

Town Inventor

Town Inventor

That’s what your role was actually called in the message from the mod?

[jjh927]

This is your best attempt at a save yet so I'm gonna drop the quotes

[jjh927]

What's the modifier you're not telling us about

[jjh927]

Disloyal maybe?

[jjh927]

Disloyal would be the modifier you give to scum so they can't give inventions to other scum

[jjh927]

jjh is guiltied scum

prove me wrong

Nobody has claimed a guilty on me. QED

Alternate proof: I received a town role PM. QED

this is helpful to no-one and you know it

[jjh927]

What night did these things happen

[jjh927]

Flavour is less important now because he's not fakeclaiming. The parts he's leaving out are more important

[jjh927]

Why did you give an invention to a slot that had literally not posted

[jjh927]

Why did you give an invention to a slot that had literally not posted

This really does reek of disloyal scum inventor fwiw
Then giving all the rest of the abilities to the same target

[jjh927]

I'm also confused at who would motivate TL in N1 unless he's their scumbuddy

[jjh927]

@mod: If someone were to have multiple different night actions, would they require a multitasking modifier or equivalent rules in order to perform more than one in the same night?

[jjh927]

TL's scumbuddy

[jjh927]

I wanna go back to my traitor hunting theory which points somewhat but not entirely at Elbirn

[jjh927]

TL's scumbuddy

I still don't know what you're getting at

motivate him to play?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Motivator

[jjh927]

I still think it's quite possible that the repeated references to the old country, which were just in-character shit, could have been interpreted by a particularly wacky individual as a traitor crumb

[jjh927]

I targeted Chemist with all of the inventions (I got motivated)

[jjh927]

Dude, I'd only think he was a traitor if he fucking told me because we had a pt

[jjh927]

I am the only person in the game who could not possibly have thought SoaS was crumbing traitor

[jjh927]

Why did you give an invention to a slot that had literally not posted

Please answer this rather than pulling a "no u" that doesn't make logical sense

[jjh927]

Fuck me one of these days I'm gonna have to claim traitor in a PT because that's genius

[jjh927]

Everybody forget 1740 in case we're ever in a PT together in another game

[jjh927]

I was hoping something would happen

and something did happen

Something would have happened regardless of who you targeted.

Why did you give a rolecop to a slot that had not posted?

[jjh927]

I recently woke up and I saw TL claiming Inventor and that is always a town role.

Here's me getting lynched day 1 as a scum inventor:

CookieDotJay, Ferb (

Mafia Inventor

), was lynched Day 1.

Spoiler: Role PM

Welcome to Green Hair'd UPick: It's about goddamn time Edition.

You are

Ferb,

Mafia Inventor

.

Ability

• Evul:
  You haz facrtional kill.
  
• Born inventor:
  To help your members, you decided to make some fancy devices to help your members out. You can give out either: 1-shot track, 1-shot watch, and 1-shot commute. You may give the inventions to town if you want to. You may not give yourself a device.

Win Condition

You win when your faction occupies 50% of the livings.

Now it is Night 1.

The deadline is in (expired on 2017-08-28 19:21:44)

[jjh927]

My crushing follow-up question does not involve other potential targets

[jjh927]

Why
Did
You
Not
Post
Anything
In
The
PT
With
Momo (who was replaced by Chemist)

[jjh927]

No attempt whatsoever to engage with the slot that you gave a power to, then the following night gave 2 powers to when you could have split them off, when you had a PT with said slot

[jjh927]

the pt was full of radio silence and disappointment

YOU WERE PART OF THE PT

[jjh927]

I am assuming that when Chemist said there was nothing there, that means you didn't even post in it

[jjh927]

I think you need to claim TL

I'm not putting you at L-1 bc I think you're likely to self-hammer at this point

I'm not at L-1 and in the tent so no hardclaim lest scum kill me for having a baller role

Hey aren't you effectively a VT

[jjh927]

Will address more things in depth when I get a chance but the first question that comes to my mind is why would scum!TL give all the inventions to the arguably least likely to be lynched slot, and the one that earned a largely unchallenged "conftown" status? Wouldn't it be smarter for a scum inventor to give inventions to someone they planned to vote/mislynch or at least saw as a likely mislynch option?

I agree that him not using the PT is weird, but I'm also not exactly sure what he should have said beyond claiming his role. And that doesn't necessarily make sense to me but at the same time I suppose if he was giving him inventions for the sake of being conftown it would make sense to claim role to that person.

Especially if these inventions are permanent modifiers and not just 1 shots I just feel like that is scum suicide.

Nightkills tend to be a more guaranteed way of removing people and he'd already given Chemist the rolecop when it was definitely optimal for scum to do so in night 1. He could put all the powers in one place, get the cred for having the role, then kill a widely townread slot.

[jjh927]

Eth0s, there are a lot of other really weird things you could be looking at that I pointed out, too

[jjh927]

Let's just get back to this

What do you think about elements? And don't just give me a short answer

Judging by the ISO, elements is the kind of person you'd want in your slice of township. He votes like a townie and posts like one too. The wanting to sheep SoaS tells me this guy is laidback and doesn't take things seriously. The not wanting to discuss roles is town-indicative or at least not wanting to rolefish in the shining moonlight. The reasoning in 156 is a fairly decent point made. 305 does seem like a weird post considering 304 is required reading for context, but doesn't seem like this indicates elements is a scumlord trying to act towny. 732 is the most recent elements post which is indeed concerning however, it might mean elements is a shadow lurking in the elements.

I don't recall any other serious townreads from TL

[jjh927]

Why did you give an invention to a slot that had literally not posted

I was hoping something would happen

and something did happen

This is not reasoning for a target

[jjh927]

All 5 of the role PMs I can read have a modifier of some description. I think it's likely this is a design theme, which makes me somewhat suspicious when TL claims something explicitly without something that could be construed as a modifier. Meanwhile, restrictions to his targets would explain his repeated targeting of Chemist.

[jjh927]

I think you need to claim TL

I'm not putting you at L-1 bc I think you're likely to self-hammer at this point

I'm not at L-1 and in the tent so no hardclaim lest scum kill me for having a baller role

Hey aren't you effectively a VT

Scum would never kill a widely scumread effective VT claim if he were to miraculously survive being lynched

[jjh927]

@jjh I agree but I feel as though giving someone a RB ability and not trying to lynch them just seems incredibly risky from a scum perspective. Doc ability is the same to a degree but with rb chemist could potentially save himself from nightkills which would surely lead to a shitshow for a scum inventor.

Yeah except one of my main candidates for that modifier that he's hiding from us is compulsive. Disloyal, compulsive, or both.

[jjh927]

Yes TL you have said that many times but I don't believe you

[jjh927]

tbh I did weakly townread chemist

N1 or N2?

[jjh927]

I thought you'd say that but that's actually the less defensible option

I weakly townread the slot in n1 for the shitty reasons about replacements

Whereas in N2 you literally gave out the entire rest of your power to a single person you only weakly townread

[jjh927]

Who have you actually townread at any points in the game

[jjh927]

D i s t a n c i n g

[jjh927]

Boooo mafiascum deleted all my spaces that was art damnit

[jjh927]

Please imagine the gap between letters in 1839 increasing with each letter to convey TL's attempt to put distance between him and his scumbuddy, Elbirn, who was not bussing him at the time

[jjh927]

no u

[jjh927]

I have been hesitant on voting TL because he claimed Inventor which is always a town role and there aren't that many players I could think of who would be TL's scum buddy. Only players I could think of who would be TL's scum buddy would either be Chemist or Menalque.

Adorable, why did you make that first point again after acknowledging that I linked a game in which I was a scum inventor

[jjh927]

Mass claim would be a lot more interesting tomorrow

[jjh927]

Eth0s, I'll go post by post through the PT if it'll stop you coming up with conspiracy theories

[jjh927]

VOTE: jjh

better vote than elbirn despite elbirn being an openwolf

jjh might be a deepwolf, which is a lot worser

This one is coming out of a sense of hope, as opposed to desperation, neither of which were the source of the Elbirn vote

[jjh927]

4 scum would be ridiculous based on estimations of power levels from flips and the damage mechanic potentially contributing to additional deaths

I quite like 2 scum and 1 traitor for 13p because depending on power roles, 3 groupscum can feel too strong and 2 feels too weak in 13p

[jjh927]

Jjh what is your read on Eth0s?

He's towny in quite number of ways, and I don't doubt any of them at all because of how he pushed for elements

[jjh927]

Well I have too many scumreads/leans right now to say I feel 3 scum is confirmed but I have this itching suspicion of an arsonist or something similar. I guess we'll know when we all go up in flames.

p-edit
jjh as long as you don't break the rules surrounding not quoting private information then I would like to hear anything that's going to help me sort you. Because I feel like it's not really a conspiracy theory at all.

I mean, it's a theory that I'm hiding a conspiracy from you in the PT with deb

[jjh927]

Oh, I just checked the rules and I can't do post by post logs

I might continue writing what I'm writing and ask if I can post it

[jjh927]

Well I have too many scumreads/leans right now to say I feel 3 scum is confirmed but I have this itching suspicion of an arsonist or something similar. I guess we'll know when we all go up in flames.

p-edit
jjh as long as you don't break the rules surrounding not quoting private information then I would like to hear anything that's going to help me sort you. Because I feel like it's not really a conspiracy theory at all.

I mean, it's a theory that I'm hiding a conspiracy from you in the PT with deb

I'm confused. I just think that you used info deb gave you to make calculated kills. Or at the very least it factored into it. If you think giving us a summary of the PT helps your case then go for it

The main thing to note is that deb only told me he was informed that there was at least one role in the game that had to do with water. I knew nothing else about his role

[jjh927]

Oh I apparently do tell deb what my full role is I must have forgot that

[jjh927]

Is that 3p or a scum role?

It's originally 3p but thanks to the brave efforts of Alisae anyone can be an arsonist