Newbie 1965 | River | Over

[Plotinus]

Official Vote Count 1.06

Soča River, Slovenia

---

Lynching

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Blatant Scum

(3): Rise, GayBabyJailor, Map Wolf

Map Wolf

(2): faüstiv, Titus

Rise

(2): Blatant Scum, GuiltyLion

GayBabyJailor

(1): Gjt

Not Voting

(1): TheGildedSun

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-11-20 10:30:00).

Mod notes:

[/area]

[Rise]

Guilty's 198: Ok, since you asked, these are the posts where you defend Blatant.

Spoiler:

guiltylion: how would you think blatant scum is town after 109

the better question is why should I think he's scum for that? What scum agenda does it serve to self-vote there? The default odds that his slot is town is 75%.

like sure you can make an argument that it's all WIFOM to defuse pressure and make us sympathize with him, but that's competing against a town explanation where he's meme-ing/trolling (which he indicated he'd do in 65) or genuinely frustrated at TGS' interaction with him. I don't have a strong reason to prefer the scum explanation over the town explanation.

I see townies self-vote all the time, it literally just happened in my last completed game. It's a different context since this was near EOD and Doolittle wanted to make sure a lynch went through, but the idea that "town never self-votes" is inherently wrong.

Agree in that the list didn't say much, but is that really scum indicative? Could it not be a townie trying their best? I do think there's parts in it that's worth questioning but your full tunnel on them really wasn't something I could agree with.

As for my vote on Blatant, like I said, I find their behaviour really weird and I'll clarify once I'm on a computer (which is soon). I'm not a fan of their recent posts either so I'm happy with where my vote is right now.

Rise - how do you think scum would be more likely to play:
1) trying to pretend to be townie, being helpful, making statements that look like they're doing something, avoiding behavior that draws attention or gets them voted (my impression of Map Wolf so far)
2) trolling, being weird, calling further attention to the fact that people are already voting/suspecting them (my impression of Blatant Scum so far)

I strongly disagree with you that scum are more likely to play in style of #2 than #1.

guiltylion: how would you think blatant scum is town after 109

the better question is why should I think he's scum for that? What scum agenda does it serve to self-vote there? The default odds that his slot is town is 75%.

like sure you can make an argument that it's all WIFOM to defuse pressure and make us sympathize with him, but that's competing against a town explanation where he's meme-ing/trolling (which he indicated he'd do in 65) or genuinely frustrated at TGS' interaction with him. I don't have a strong reason to prefer the scum explanation over the town explanation.

I see townies self-vote all the time, it literally just happened in my last completed game. It's a different context since this was near EOD and Doolittle wanted to make sure a lynch went through, but the idea that "town never self-votes" is inherently wrong.

Yes, self voting is not a thing only scum do, but it's still weird behaviour. Why would any normal townie do that? Does it not make you want to question him at all?

meh, not really. I thought of a few reasons town would do it, I thought of a few reasons scum would do it, I don't really think the scum reasons are more likely than the town reasons, so it's not interesting or indicative to me

People do all sorts of stuff for all sorts of reasons. Might be genuinely frustrated, might get a kick out of messing with other people, might use it as a tool to help them find scum taking the bait. I'm not saying you're town

because

of that play style, just that I don't find it scummy.

You should know "it isn't possible" wasn't meant to be taken literally, I mean to say you're riding something off as "impossible" and therefore don't even pursue that possibility. (These posts prove it.)

Also a hidden gem that I forgot about until I looked back through your posts:

At the moment I agree with faustiv on GBJ/Blatant Scum slots being town and therefore I will grant faustiv a D1 townread as well, though I get the feeling they're gonna be that "10% chance of deep wolf" slot that I randomly get paranoid about from time to time

You DO townread Blatant. How do you feel now that faustiv said he lied about his Blatant townread?

Ok cool? you clearly have more knowledge at Mafia than me, are you sure you aren't twisting my words? For the record, I had a skim read of that article just now and I'm not saying "we should do the unlikely thing!" I'm not even saying "Blatant is scum." I'm saying we should not discredit something just because it is unlikely. But honestly it's not even a fair comparison because there are less trolls in general so obviously there's gonna be less scum trolls.

Everyone should be questioned and assessed - then we can see who is likely to be scum. Isn't that what the game is? I stand by the fact we should be paying more attention to Blatant, cause right now, he's actively making himself unreadable/slipping under the radar and doing so by default makes him a scumlean for me. Although if we're talking about pure scum behaviour, I actually think you're higher up on my list than him because you're coming off as SUPER manipulative right now. Will be happy to do a post on this later on.

It's funny you should mention disingenuous though because I actually think Blatant is being disingenuous. He shows every so often he knows how to play (and he's a SE man) but is actively not doing it for whatever reason. Why is he hiding? (Will also be happy to elaborate later.)

I did answer your question. I said it depends on the person. I don't think you understood my point or I haven't clarified it well. In any case, what I mean is: different people are gonna play scum differently based on their personality/experience whatever. Is that not right? I think we should get to know a person and see if they specifically are displaying scummy behaviour to determine whether they are scum.

For your last point: fine. Say what you what to say. All I ask is that people read my posts as they are (untouched) and if you have any bones to pick with me then, feel free to question me. That includes you.

Bluhh I have some more things to say but I'm genuinely tired. Catch you all later.

[Rise]

Also to switch my vote to Guilty cause he's higher up on my scum list or stay on Blatant cause he needs pressure...hmmmm

[Blatant Scum]

UNVOTE:

[faüstiv]

VOTE: TheGildedSun

[GayBabyJailor]

VOTE: TheGildedSun

y tho

[GuiltyLion]

Guilty's 198: Ok, since you asked, these are the posts where you defend Blatant.

Spoiler:

guiltylion: how would you think blatant scum is town after 109

the better question is why should I think he's scum for that? What scum agenda does it serve to self-vote there? The default odds that his slot is town is 75%.

like sure you can make an argument that it's all WIFOM to defuse pressure and make us sympathize with him, but that's competing against a town explanation where he's meme-ing/trolling (which he indicated he'd do in 65) or genuinely frustrated at TGS' interaction with him. I don't have a strong reason to prefer the scum explanation over the town explanation.

I see townies self-vote all the time, it literally just happened in my last completed game. It's a different context since this was near EOD and Doolittle wanted to make sure a lynch went through, but the idea that "town never self-votes" is inherently wrong.

Agree in that the list didn't say much, but is that really scum indicative? Could it not be a townie trying their best? I do think there's parts in it that's worth questioning but your full tunnel on them really wasn't something I could agree with.

As for my vote on Blatant, like I said, I find their behaviour really weird and I'll clarify once I'm on a computer (which is soon). I'm not a fan of their recent posts either so I'm happy with where my vote is right now.

Rise - how do you think scum would be more likely to play:
1) trying to pretend to be townie, being helpful, making statements that look like they're doing something, avoiding behavior that draws attention or gets them voted (my impression of Map Wolf so far)
2) trolling, being weird, calling further attention to the fact that people are already voting/suspecting them (my impression of Blatant Scum so far)

I strongly disagree with you that scum are more likely to play in style of #2 than #1.

guiltylion: how would you think blatant scum is town after 109

the better question is why should I think he's scum for that? What scum agenda does it serve to self-vote there? The default odds that his slot is town is 75%.

like sure you can make an argument that it's all WIFOM to defuse pressure and make us sympathize with him, but that's competing against a town explanation where he's meme-ing/trolling (which he indicated he'd do in 65) or genuinely frustrated at TGS' interaction with him. I don't have a strong reason to prefer the scum explanation over the town explanation.

I see townies self-vote all the time, it literally just happened in my last completed game. It's a different context since this was near EOD and Doolittle wanted to make sure a lynch went through, but the idea that "town never self-votes" is inherently wrong.

Yes, self voting is not a thing only scum do, but it's still weird behaviour. Why would any normal townie do that? Does it not make you want to question him at all?

meh, not really. I thought of a few reasons town would do it, I thought of a few reasons scum would do it, I don't really think the scum reasons are more likely than the town reasons, so it's not interesting or indicative to me

People do all sorts of stuff for all sorts of reasons. Might be genuinely frustrated, might get a kick out of messing with other people, might use it as a tool to help them find scum taking the bait. I'm not saying you're town

because

of that play style, just that I don't find it scummy.

You should know "it isn't possible" wasn't meant to be taken literally, I mean to say you're riding something off as "impossible" and therefore don't even pursue that possibility. (These posts prove it.)

Also a hidden gem that I forgot about until I looked back through your posts:

At the moment I agree with faustiv on GBJ/Blatant Scum slots being town and therefore I will grant faustiv a D1 townread as well, though I get the feeling they're gonna be that "10% chance of deep wolf" slot that I randomly get paranoid about from time to time

You DO townread Blatant. How do you feel now that faustiv said he lied about his Blatant townread?

I do townread Blatant and would even say it's currently unlikely IMO that he's scum - that's not at all the same as saying it's "impossible" that he's scum. You talk about being manipulative or twisting words but this here is a clear instance where you are putting an argument into my mouth that I did not make. I'm wrong on my reads all the time, I'm always still re-evaluating and reconsidering, me saying I townread Blatant is not the same as me writing off that he could be scum. Instead I think the line of push/inquiry that

three

different players have already committed to ("he's trolly / not really playing, therefore he's scummy") is bad, and I'm way more interested in pushing back on the players who are taking that route.

Also yeah, faustiv walked back his townread. Cool? That had nothing to do with my townread on Blatant, it had more to do with my townread on faustiv, and there's plenty of other reasons to townread faustiv still. I don't understand what is motivating your question there.

Ok cool? you clearly have more knowledge at Mafia than me, are you sure you aren't twisting my words? For the record, I had a skim read of that article just now and I'm not saying "we should do the unlikely thing!" I'm not even saying "Blatant is scum." I'm saying we should not discredit something just because it is unlikely. But honestly it's not even a fair comparison because there are less trolls in general so obviously there's gonna be less scum trolls.

Everyone should be questioned and assessed - then we can see who is likely to be scum. Isn't that what the game is? I stand by the fact we should be paying more attention to Blatant, cause right now, he's actively making himself unreadable/slipping under the radar and doing so by default makes him a scumlean for me. Although if we're talking about pure scum behaviour, I actually think you're higher up on my list than him because you're coming off as SUPER manipulative right now. Will be happy to do a post on this later on.

Blatant is one of/the leading wagon(s) and has several people attacking him. How is he under the radar? I'm instead choosing to question and assess the people who are voting him because I think I'm far more likely to find a scum there.

If you think I'm being manipulative, go ahead and point out where I'm being manipulative. Just tossing out the accusation and not explaining further is bogus and doesn't give me any confidence that you genuinely think that.

It's funny you should mention disingenuous though because I actually think Blatant is being disingenuous. He shows every so often he knows how to play (and he's a SE man) but is actively not doing it for whatever reason. Why is he hiding? (Will also be happy to elaborate later.)

I've played with people who have all sorts of play styles. I can't answer why he's hiding and so far he's made it clear he doesn't feel compelled to answer. Some people just like to fuck around and troll for whatever reason. You still have to learn how to read/interpret them anyway. Not_Mafia is another famous example on this site of behaving in a way that people find frustrating/trolling.

Also, you can actually look at his completed games and see that he has already played like this before as town, and even explained some of his motive there. I skimmed over some of his games the other day. Consider this post:

Do you think you can be immune from reads by being awkward?

Yes, that is exactly the point of this alt!

Yuck.

Can you not, if you're actually town?

As town I act very scummy and "scumslip" often. So even as town I want to be extra sure that players can't read me.
Actually, I am much better in behaving towny as scum, than as town, so the whole point of this alt is to not get lynched as town. + as scum I should behave the same way as town.

So I say again, this whole "troll/hiding = scum" argument is weak and I am currently much more interested in pressing elsewhere, particularly people who are opting to go for the laziest and most popular scumread currently available in the game.

[faüstiv]

VOTE: TheGildedSun

y tho

why not

[GuiltyLion]

I could def see myself voting TGS as well, 171 was a bad post especially since TGS herself isn't voting Map Wolf

key to this game is gonna be finding the townie in Map Wolf/Rise/TGS

[faüstiv]

I could def see myself voting TGS as well, 171 was a bad post especially since TGS herself isn't voting Map Wolf

key to this game is gonna be finding the townie in Map Wolf/Rise/TGS

what do you make of titus?

[GuiltyLion]

I didn't like the way Titus gave a purely mechanical reason for voting onto the Map Wolf wagon but there's also not really much to read there beyond that, Titus is also kinda hard for me to read in general. Could be scum but not my top priority rn.

[Blatant Scum]

key to this game is gonna be finding the townie in Map Wolf/Rise/TGS

Rise is pretty much dead if you lynch me and I flip town. (Especially with that push on GuiltyLion)
If Rise is scum, he knows I am town.
I think that Rise doesn't want to be dead.

Map Wolf's push on me so I can get active is NAI.

VOTE: TGS

[Map Wolf]

I could def see myself voting TGS as well, 171 was a bad post especially since TGS herself isn't voting Map Wolf

key to this game is gonna be finding the townie in Map Wolf/Rise/TGS

Do you think two or one of these are mafia?

[Titus]

I didn't like the way Titus gave a purely mechanical reason for voting onto the Map Wolf wagon but there's also not really much to read there beyond that, Titus is also kinda hard for me to read in general. Could be scum but not my top priority rn.

If you don't like mechanics, you won't like me. *shrug*

[Map Wolf]

201 kind of comes off as trying hard to justify themself.

[faüstiv]

201 kind of comes off as trying hard to justify themself.

201 reads super paranoid town to me. I don’t think that’s contrived.

[faüstiv]

Rises progression on the GL/Blatant FOS looks natural too.

moving it into my townpile

[Map Wolf]

201 kind of comes off as trying hard to justify themself.

201 reads super paranoid town to me. I don’t think that’s contrived.

I considered saying that it comes off as scum trying hard, but I do agree it is possible for that behavior to be a thing if you are too afraid of being lynched as town.

[Plotinus]

TheGildedSun¹ and Gjt¹ have been prodded. They have (expired on 2019-11-15 14:30:00) to lost before I start looking for a replacement.

[TheGildedSun]

Blatant's mindless following on lynching me concerns me. He talks about Rise, but nothing about me. Then votes me.

Faust, what makes you believe it's me? I'm a bit questioning of you at this point. I like your attempts to gamesolve, but there is something wrong. I think I'm going to re-read last game to find the difference.
I am simply attempting to gamesolve.

One thing that I believe might set one off about me is my neutrality but this is just my playstyle, I don't like focusing on lynching one player.

[TheGildedSun]

Would elaborate more but I'm feeling pretty crappy today.

[Blatant Scum]

Sun, you are a lynchable person who I don't townread.
That's why the vote.

[TheGildedSun]

Sun, you are a lynchable person who I don't townread.
That's why the vote.

I thought you were "against" reading and wanted to leave that to other players?

[GayBabyJailor]

hey blatant, we still don't have a reason for you self voting and refusing to share reads

[Gjt]

Didn't realise it had been that long since I'd posted. I dont have too much too add at mo, keep checking back, but haven't properly read everything. Will refer to my notes soon enough.