Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

[Replica]

listen buster your overtures are meaningless, resistance is futile

there is only one spare that can bring us salvation, only one man that will save us, this man's name is bingle

he does not yet realize or accept his destiny, but he must be made to

over all protests, over all insistences that he may want to stay

#SPAREBINGLE

he's like jesus but better

you are going to the heaviside layer whether you like it or not

[Replica]

Oh goddamnit the spare people are actually outnumbered now

This is going to be a fun day oh boy

[Replica]

YEP DEFINITELY OUTNUMBERED

WELP

[Replica]

I think we fight today

If we hit scum, spare tomorrow
If we hit town, fight tomorrow

I get the first one I'm not really sure I follow you on the second, I can see it going either way.

Also, who do you actually want to fight/where are you at atm?

[Replica]

I actually need to more critically engage with Farkran's case on Hectic/Chara but my instinct has been deeply skeptical; Hectic's play as mentioned previously was perhaps flat and uninspired but his progressions+reads were fine and consistent. The quickspare was also something telegraphed very much beforehand.

Main projects for the day for me I guess are going to be get an updated+solid read on Chara, read Amrun, and doublecheck on Farkran. After end of day yesterday with Nacho I've really started to lose heart that he'll ever really show some fire for this game.

[Replica]

I didn't think he had good reads and he was a scum candidate for I think everyone but Nacho and maybe Fark.

I went back and looked and he would have been an obstacle to Bingle/Nacho lynches, and was generally pro-spare. I don't think it was a bad kill for most teams-maybe not like, Fark/Nacho/Bingle combos, but almost anything else works-and for any teams that include Amrun it would be very strong. I don't think that says much about who likely did it as I would have liked.

[Replica]

I think it's worth noting that we do get to learn the flips from 3S/1F, it's just a bit delayed. We have a chance to lose before we see it (Scum spare+two town lynches), but we have some mechanical guarantees built in for us.

Lynch scum, spare scum=We know that scum is one of the two non-FN spares, as the game is not over.
Lynch town, spare town/scum=We'll learn after the Day 5 lynch whether a scum was in a spare or was removed.

One of the removals in a 3-spare will be the FN, so the other we learn by default unless they want to remove an unclear for the ambiguity.

[Replica]

Uhm... i just realized that Amrun could be scum too, but it would be very short sighted of her to kill Psyche specifically n2 knowing that we were probably going for a lynch by removing 1 sparepusher, when they could instead kill Replica who would have surely shot me - and then remove Psyche n3 - for the same effect with less risk.

I don't get what you're saying here. Assuming I'll keep tunneling you if it's TvT is a solid bet from scum PoV. Psyche was skeptical of Amrun and protective of you.

There would be little reason to keep Psyche over me for Scumrun, or for literally anyone if this is hypothetically TvT.

[Replica]

I asked back when I was first calculating EVs, they can.

It'd be a completely dominant town strategy to three spare if they couldn't.

[Replica]

Oh, I see, Fark is thinking ahead to the shot for 2S/2F rather than just the lynches. That makes sense now.

[Replica]

You've got it reversed, if they couldn't remove from the spare pool it would actually have been insanely overpowered for town, but glad you realized that we actually do get mechanical info.

[Replica]

I literally do not understand why, out of all the things to do right now, Nacho is focusing on reading Farkran's case on an already-spared player.

It's on my list for checking Farkran, but like, there are so many more avenues for him to take right now (See: Actually trying to read or engage with Amrun)

[Replica]

I guess he asked Amrun a single question. That was something.

[Replica]

Worth noting I didn't townread Sujimichi early, if you read the post again I was justifying why I didn't want to lynch him that day which is very different. That reason was "I think he'll become very readable with time and I don't trust reading him on tone". I started townreading him when I went and looked at his scumgame, first pointed out by Hectic. #688 went over my conclusions for that.

[Replica]

@Replica, can we compromise on a Nacho lynch today, and agree that we lynch either me or Chara if he flips town, otherwise we spare either you or your highest townread (i guess bingle) on a red flip? I honestly think there's pretty much no world in which you are scum by now.

He's in my lynch pool, depends on what I come away from reviewing you/Chara/Amrun. Chara I tried earlier to no real avail, Amrun is my project for tomorrow.

We have a full day to play. Why does it matter where I start?

It matters because I'm actually trying to put myself in your shoes and figure out what town Nacho is thinking, what he considers a priority and why. Yesterday the town Nacho priority seemed to be to not get forcereplaced. Today so far I really have no clue.

[Replica]

I know I've been a bit of a dick to you between today and the end of day yesterday and should probably tone it down a bit, but telling me "We have a full day to play" as though it is obvious that you will utilize it to the fullest doesn't exactly have a lot of credibility.

[Replica]

Don't have time today like I thought, but now that things are cooking I'm excited.

[Replica]

I don’t get how you don’t have a read of me, Replica.

It's mostly because I don't give townreads to players that I think are playing within their range. I don't put a lot of faith in terms of my ability to say things like "More likely to come from town Amrun than scum Amrun". Instead, I frame things as "How likely are they to be playing better than I think they're capable of?"

Outside of that, I have agreed with a lot of your reads but disagreed with some of the pushes you've made along the way even if I could understand the reasoning for them. Sujimichi and his tone was an example earlier, and later I didn't think Bingle's reaction to your push was scummy even though it was a lousy argument on his end (Sorry Bingle). I've known that reading you would likely be a very difficult endeavor all game, and my plan was to wait until Day 3/4 unless something really pinged me. Having the same reads as me for the most part helped, but it doesn't say much about you if my reads are wrong. At times I'd have probably classified you as a townlean, but that's really it.

Now that we're both lynching and it's later I don't feel like I can conveniently assume you're town anymore.

I don't really understand Replica's confidence in Alimdia based on this meta case.
The first post he calls out is Alimdia voting Sherlock because he doesn't understand why Sherlock voted Hectic early on - how is that "genuine confusion and interest"? how can he claim that's outside of anyone's scumrange?
The other two are Alimdia wanting Sherlock to offer a better reason for Sherlock following JTB's RVS vote which seems like a relatively small thing to harp on - really don't understand why town!Alimdia cares about why Sherlock voted Hectic on the second page of the game to the degree he does, and, again, don't understand how that's out of his scumrange.

This tells me it'd be helpful to start with exactly how I meta. I don't put a lock of stock in things like activity, willingness to follow others, voting patterns/bussing, etc. Even things like aggressiveness I view very skeptically. This is because people, even or especially new players, generally think about these things a lot when they're scum. The #1 thing I look for is instead how they tend to approach their reads. People think, "I need to have logical reads, or a rational vote, or make objectively defensible and reasonable pushes" as scum, when in reality their town approach often isn't. There's a bit more to how I meta (I look for town tendencies, whereas I look for scum level of play) but this will suffice for now.

With alimdia, their approach to interacting with other players this game was getting to the bottom of things, flat out admitting that they don't understand why someone does something, and thinking it's scummy from the other player when they don't understand it, and not really being concerned about the backlash that might come from it. Their scumgame tended to be more of that "this is scummy, I draw this conclusion from this post", very concerned that they not be assailable.

These things aren't out of anyone's scumrange once they

are aware of them

. Before they hit that point, they are extremely indicative imo.

[Replica]

I don't really know how to feel about Nacho's alignment, in that a lot of the last few pages have been spent in conversation with Farkran and reviewing the many points, highlighting the problems, overstatements, and non-sequiturs that regularly abound. I appreciate that Nacho has really gotten into the game and backed up that his engagement with Farkran's Hectic read would be worthwhile, whereas initially I was skeptical.

I just...struggle to make use of it, as in what do I, Replica, take from this. I was really excited to nail down Nacho with it but instead I'm just kind of saying "Yeah, he's right, but does it

matter

?" I guess that's on me, not Nacho. He's doing the right thing for townNacho but for me I'm watching him reinvent the wheel. I don't agree that his frustration at times is town, in that I don't tend to view frustration as town indicative and often view it the opposite way (For example, scum caught for the wrong reasons), but this is going to take time and honestly I'm not eager to read 10 more Farkran walls right now.

You'd be better off interacting with my posts as opposed to just sitting back and taking potshots - the potshots themselves do nothing but annoy me and make me dread the fact that we likely have to have in depth interactions today for town to have a decent chance of winning a game where it shouldn't be that hard to win. I know that it's been a while since we've played together, but if you're trying to get me engaged with the game, it's actually quite simple - don't be a dick, read my posts. You know that. You've seen it before. Why are you taking this route instead?

I was sincere, but I definitely wasn't admitting 100% fault with my "bit of a dick" post. I think acting like I was just aiming to shoot you down isn't a fair characterization here. I have been very eager to engage with the content of your posts overall, and much of my criticism is directed at their content. I've been eager to laud you when you've shown effort and dug deeper, but I've also been quick to call out posts and reads that I think don't meet that bar (Chemist read, glorified proddodge).

I generally agree with positive reinforcement, but I think holding you to a standard-not on agreeing with me but in effort/depth of thinking-is an important of getting the best out of you. The conciliatory post was precisely because I thought I was veering too far negative.

[Replica]

But I don't really see how almidia ever questioned things like he didn't understand them - the posts you quoted in your meta case were linked to his push on Sherlock for following JTB in an RVS heal vote - not only was it a push that never seemed to include Almidia actually attempting to understand (the flow instead was "what is this? you are scum!), but it lasted way too long and then fizzled out kind of awkwardly.

I fundamentally disagree. All 3 of those expressed confusion and skepticism of Sherlock's true reasoning. #211 especially shows this. I'm not reviewing the rest of his posting right now but my instinct is that it lasting awhile is probably a good thing. Finding the end it looks like they were still dissatisfied at never finding an answer they understood beyond "OMGUS type player" and they were still frustrated.

[Replica]

#1783 is a really good post from Bingle. I can clearly follow most of the given reasoning even if some of it is missing. This is a big undertaking for Bingle town, but even bigger for Bingle scum. It makes a lot of commitments on reads/teams that scum Bingle should not be eager to have. The only criticism I'd have of it is that the lynch pool is arguably convenient, making it possible for him to go through the effort of faking it. I don't think scum Bingle needed to or had much to gain from it beyond the hope of being townread for the post, though.

[Replica]

Hmmm, I don't have the energy to get to the finish line, but drilling deep into Amrun's alimdia read and her progression on me are probably going to be my best bet here if she's scum. If she's town...I really don't know if I'll ever get where I need to be, at least not with what we have now.

[Replica]

Last night I sat in bed thinking about this game, and I realized that there is exactly 1 player in this game that hasn't recently expressed a hard townread me (Chemist). And I...am not getting spared today. I knew several people had underexplained townreads but I didn't realize it was literally the entire game. I think I'm better at gauging other's reactions to me, which basically no one has expounded on, than I am looking at secondary interactions too so this game really owns.

Life is cruel sometimes.

[Replica]

HEAL: Bingle

I'm really struggling right now in the reads department. This is the only one I feel solid on. I was able to understand/empathize with Chemist a lot more on a read through today, and I feel like choosing to engage with Farkran's points to the extent he did, and as critically but still open as he did, as scum would be difficult for him. I'm not confident in him being town but he's no longer in my desired lynchpool I think.

Chara's recent content has hashed out a lot but their reads don't really seem to be evolving in new or interesting ways. I kind of feel that, but it makes it tough to read. Amrun has been extremely difficult, all of her reads are very plausible. I don't like some of the Hectic progression, and Amrun instantly asking the leading questions (beginning in #274, continuing until I flexed a bit) to see if I would give her something to pounce on is worse in hindsight when I realize that it came shortly after her vote on Asriel (now Farkran)

I don't like my lynch preference right now. Farkran -> Amrun -> Nacho -> Chemist, where I can easily see both of Nacho/Amrun being town. I don't think I'd learn a lot from seeing only one of her/Nacho flip town, either, so I'm really not eager to lynch there.

I feel like I'm wrong somewhere and I don't like it. My fear is that it's on one of Farkran/Chara/Hectic.

[Replica]

HURT: Farkran

I still want to revisit this when I have the energy but there's literally no one else I'm comfortable voting for right now.

[Replica]

Flip was the opposite of what I was asking for; I didn't initially place a vote and explicitly said I wasn't comfortable lynching any of the bottom 3 people on the list, and thought that a town flip from any of them would tell me basically nothing.

The entire assertion that I did a heal on Hectic to "avoid a flip" is disingenuous and ignores the fact that sparing is how we win games imo.

Hectic spare has been explained to death, I wasn't confident he was town, and I have spent more than enough time this game explaining it to you and backlinking posts. Sorry but I'm tired of it, it's a wall of rehashed garbage, no.

[Replica]

Sorry, bottom 3 of 4 (Nacho, Amrun, Chemist)

[Replica]

Literally if you can't understand why I spared Hectic over lynching you yesterday, you have not understood a single post I have made all game.

[Replica]

I don't really have anything specific I want you to look at. I'm feeling pretty aimless right now and don't know where to look myself. The reads I really want (Nacho/Amrun) are the ones I'm struggling to get. The problem with my lynchpool is I

don't actually have a read on either of them

, they're just there by default.

For Chemist/vs. Amrun question, it's just that I think Amrun is fully capable of doing all she's done this game as scum. It wouldn't surprise me in the least. That doesn't mean that she's playing anti-town or playing poorly. Chemist I think the depth/effort and nuance put into the interaction with Farkran is a bit out of reach for what I think a scumChemist is capable of.

[Replica]

ie. The best thing for me is probably to go your own way and hopefully something new at the table helps me out incidentally, whether that's confirming the townlean on you or getting me to think of a new angle towards someone else

[Replica]

I still want to post my original reply to #1829 before I decided to be slightly less of a dick, which was:

"nah lol"

[Replica]

Considering the fact that I wasn't confident in Hectic, switched to it despite having a TR on Bingle, and specifically wanted a spare over a lynch yesterday despite this lack of confidence has already been acknowledged by Farkran in #1534, and given that he's seen me say 20x over that lynching scum has never, at any point, been in my plans for the game, I again find it very difficult to believe that Farkran is not working backwards and that this is an organic progression.

The progression for Farkran has been like:

Day 1:
1) Replace in. I'm not voting him and I like his activity and initially slot him as a townlean. He likes me, even though he disagrees with my spare arguments.
2) I remove him from the townleans. He asks why. I say it's because I think his activity/shoving he's probably capable of as scum, and I'd rather focus on longterm reads.
3) He goes on the offensive, It's my personality. No wait, it's the spare route, that I initially understood but now don't at all. Okay, it's kind of both. Well, whatever. Absolutely gets more than he bargained for and has other players side with me.
4) Whoops, it's not that they're mafia, Replica is actually just frustrated, but dumb, town. They're not pushing a lynch at least haha so I can say that. This lasts through Day 2.

Day 2:
5) I vote him to counter a Bingle wagon
6) Oh man, maybe it's really Replica after all, but also it's with the counterwagon Bingle haha
7) Alright there's no indicator I've ever understood what Replica was saying but I'll drop it Replica is town again

Day 3:
8) Replica is still town for uh, genuine TvT frustration. Just dumb tunneling town.
9) I vote him because I don't have any other confident scumreads and we're probably lynching today.
10) Wait a second let's go back to basically exactly what we hashed out mid Day 2 Replica is potentially scum again

I again see no reason to believe this guy is capable of working forwards as scum, I have only seen him work backwards, and Nacho has picked up on the same trend even if he's unsure how to feel about it.

[Replica]

HURT: Farkran

I’m conflicted about this, as I am about many things this game.


It would be so easy to criticize Replica for lack of commitment here but the reality is that we are reading the game almost exclusively the same way except in regards to Bingle. That would make me feel very weird if Replica turned out to be scum so I just don’t think they are.

It would be pretty easy to fabricate a read on me and Nacho if they wanted to.

Even if we get a townflip today, we need so desperately to rule out someone as scum, and Farkran is a fantastic slot for most everyone’s PoE I think. And maybe the gods will shine on me and he will flip red.

My TR of Chara is decreasing because his reads don’t seem to be evolving, but at the same time... I agree with basically everything he posts.

This game is so frustrating.

Normally I think statements like "If you're town here..." are theatrics best left after the game, but I want to say that I really do like your play all game, and appreciate that we've been onboard for a lot of it. Given our rocky start I'm really surprised and pleased how well we've been able to come together at multiple points.

The better you are as a player, the harder it is to get a townread from me, and that can be kind of frustrating so I'm sorry. It's important to know it's out of respect and appreciation for you though, regardless of your alignment. I'm extremely cautious and doubtful of my reads.

[Replica]

Replica, if you are town, you are just bad at this game. I too am tired to read your not-so-faintly offensive posts about me. Unfortunately there is actually a significant chance that you are still town. None of the kills suit scum!you, none of the spares make more sense for scum!you than any of {Chara, Nacho, Amrun}.

Just explain to me what changed your mind about Hectic and Chara.

pedit: Amrun, you had your chance yesterday. Today we lynch Chara or Nacho. Any other lynch is pointless at this moment.

pedit2: yeah. What changed your confidence in Hectic?

nah lol

[Replica]

The best part of this is I answered Farkran's question twice and he still didn't realize it.

[Replica]

I don’t think there’s a question he’s working backwards, just whether or not it’s AI.

I'm sorry, what? This is one of the few things I think is 100% broadly scum

[Replica]

What do you think about Bingle saying he was only disengaged due to being on the phone which is over now, but never mentioning that before?

He didn't bring it up until it was asked. I think it's fine; he didn't go out of his way to use it as an excuse at any point earlier. He did mention the phone once when saying why he wasn't bothering to unvote.

My impression was that he was probably busy and/or didn't care, it doesn't surprise me too much to learn that it was the former and that the latter followed when he got a computer.

[Replica]

That's fair, Nacho also was going back and forth as to whether it was that or conf bias, I think his interactions with me specifically (especially the Day 1 push) are what point strongly towards him starting with the outcome then getting the read, rather than starting with the read and making up bad reasons to follow.

[Replica]

I actually hadn't fully parsed your Bingle post before responding to that.

I know Chara gave you the benefit of the doubt and said “oh he must have said he was phone posting and I forgot.” You DIDN’T. You never said your total lack of engagement with the game was simply pending you getting computer time and had an expiration date. You were obstinate and not helpful at all for anyone trying to engage you. You said something about a half assed Bingle being better than a no assed slot, clearly implying that wasn’t likely to change.

You walking this back now is really frustrating for me and perhaps scum indicative, but I don’t want to argue about it and ruin the progress we have made. I would like to continue to talk to you, and you haven’t responded to any of the things you’ve asked me, either.

Reading it, a few things stick out to me:

Halfassed Bingle can always change, my interpretation was don't count on it. I don't think his phone posting is the only reason for his disengagement, it's just the elephant in the room. My intuition for him coming to take more interest in the game in general though may be wrong.

I'm really struggling to see why this isn't both plausible and even expected of Bingle town. His initial halfassed approach is arguably bad/cynical play, but he didn't go out of his way to make an excuse, and just owned that he was halfassing. His stance was "Just make them deal with it" is about what I'd expect from town Bingle here. The real issue to me seems that he didn't really want to promise that he'd tryhard later, which is...unfortunately still exactly what I expect from Bingle.

[Replica]

I dunno, I'd say that hypothetically he could be scummy for not making promises/excuses, but I've seen more town halfass and say "Well it's the town's fault if they lynch me for it" than I can count. I honestly hate the fact I'd even consider it more likely to come from town just because it's so garbage and I don't want to validate it.

I'll chew on it a bit more though, with the needling/progression aspects.

[Replica]

I'm not accusing you of lying about your availability, I'm talking about your demeanor about the unavailability and my own personal speculation that you've just become more interested in the game over time to match.

[Replica]

As far as I can tell Amrun isn't accusing you of lying about your availability either, it's again about your demeanor and how you responded to questions about it.

[Replica]

@the man who not my mamma

wat up big cho r u sure u don't want 2 spare 2day? if u do lmk, ttyl

[Replica]

If someone that is not Farkran does not understand why I spared Hectic, or incorrectly thinks I had him as a solid town, I will gladly answer 1829/1882 and point to the relevant posts.

I have been more than generous enough with my time and patience to Farkran. The Buddha had limits. Mine are much lower.

[Replica]

The inductive vs deductive reasoning debate is not born today.

Starting with a desired conclusion then gathering evidence is not inductive inference/reasoning.

[Replica]

#802, #996, #1608, #1840

[Replica]

Whoops, I linked to 804. Here's the real #802

[Replica]

Yeah. All of those posts are you declaring what i am doing, not what i am actually doing.

Name a slot that i haven't been reading from both povs in mind, and tell me exactly where i have been pushing for a desired conclusion rather than an inferred one based on the gamestate, or -viceversa- where i have been directing my townreads and scumreads based on conveniency rather than genuine thinking.

#989 pretty decisively rules out that you reached the conclusion you did from reading my ISO. This is not looking at it from both viewpoints. You further claimed that "you couldn't miss [the conclusion]" if you read my ISO, making this even more of a joke.

The links you're replying to, #802, #1608, #1840, all very clearly point to specific instances, not just broad trends. #1319 goes further on why I perceived your push as opportunistic.

Links are generally made for reference materials and brevity. Rehashing the exact same argument, quoting past posts extensively, and responding to you in general, given your 5 second attention span, refusal to search for an answer yourself even when I have indicated repeatedly where it can be found, have all bloated the game and made it harder for others to engage in meaningful ways. I am actively hurting us all every time I bother to respond to you.

[Replica]

Ah, yes, the old "That isn't ACTUALLY evidence of what you think, because you are wrong" defense

[Replica]

Do you think I’ve been hard to engage with this game?

I thought so at the start; your questions towards me were very loaded/leading imo to try to get me to commit to much more than my posts wanted, and you were very persistent with getting me to do so.

Since then, not really. We've come together on a lot of our reads, and have consistently been able to interpret and validate the other's point in discussion that don't even involve us. I feel like I haven't had many questions to ask you/anywhere to really needle you, to be fair. Maybe I should be more skeptical of the alimdia/Bingle push+reasoning than I am currently.

I think Bingle is underselling you a bit here, but I can see why he thinks this way looking back, especially back in the Farkran read discussion. #1173 is just dismissing it as not AI, and in a pretty hyperbolic way, rather than discussing why you disagree with his point. Everyone knows that scum can push things.

[Replica]

With little in the way of a segue, Replica lied down, contemplating the possible available dummies. "Do you think... there's one that can float... like me?... or maybe, there is one that can sing... or maybe one shaped like a cat...". The tears in one of Replica's eyes, though not the other, subsided, because there was something about idle thought that was special to Replica.

Yes, YES this is the quality content I came to see

[Replica]

WE GOT THREE

NACHOOOOOOOO EMBRACE THE MERCY AND INNER GOODNESS IN YOUR HEART

[Replica]

@Replica: I see asking you questions and trying to get you to commit to things as engaging vs not engaging, but ok, that is helpful.

I think in hindsight I can see why Bingle would think that since I wasn’t really interested in his uninformed opinion. His opinion is no longer uninformed so I am interested in it now.

Quality of engagement and perception of being treated seriously/fairly is really important for it though imo, and at least in my case I felt very looked down on and being made to prove myself as a player before I could hope to have you engage with me on equal footing+be more cooperative with the way you questioned.

Glad I could help

[Replica]

No worries, it's fine.

FWIW Bingle, I think you're right that Amrun's pushes are very explainable as scum, which is why I've been so wary to give her a real TR. I'm not sure the case really does much to get me to the not town part though-in things like that I very much bought the reasoning on Sujimichi, understood what she was saying about the A/B stuff, and didn't find it contradictory. The selected pushes all being on lurkers isn't great but it happens.

Amrun, looking at your case for Bingle, it seems to be mostly to do with alimdia's busywork and difficulty forming reads.

I'm having a really hard time coming onboard here. First is that your feelings about alimdia's busywork seem to have increased over time. Second, I really think their interactions with Sherlock were genuine and the interactions there came about pretty organically. They were really not buying what Sherlock was selling, and it was alimdia's original thinking that got there. At some point they came to Sujimichi's defense against you. Their Pine point is a good one, too, and you can clearly see where it originates. You see two lurkers but only one is getting pushed-is it not natural to think "Is one scum? Or is scum just picking one to push a mislynch on?"

#288's post on Sujimichi has no problem giving a read, and rather than easily reinforcing it they launch immediately into the questions they have about it. #289 does the same as Nacho.

The more I'm looking at these, yeah, the more convinced I am this slot is town. These aren't busywork at all imo.

[Replica]

Looking at Nacho's reads it looks like he has a firm townread on me and no firm scumread. I'm curious as to where the rest of the players, a kind of update on the tierlist of town/scumleans.

{Chara, Farkran} are my Tier 2 spare later reads. These places might get paranoid thoughts in super outside worlds but these two would be top townreads in a normal game. In a world where Chemist is town and I'm apparently smoking some serious drugs then I might touch this group but otherwise nope most definitely not. Chara is my "extremely genuine engagement, like the cut of their jib" read whereas I've explained Farkran already but it boils down to extremely genuine paranoia and progression on that paranoia + playing the most batshit scumgame ever if scum.
{Amrun, Replica} are my Tier 3 "probably very likely town but who cares???" reads. Other than the whole "forgot bingle was in the game" thing Amrun and Replica have had some extremely genuine pushes and while I'm definitely more inclined to be paranoid thanks to wide scum ranges I really think in my heart either are scum hence a big "turn the world upside down" moment if Chemist turned out to be town.

I'm really interested in how these (Chara/Amrun/Replica) have progressed, in that order

The third I'm really only curious about the order in the timeline. (Expressed order was thinking I have a wide scumrange, then that he has an idea of my main, then a strong townread-what was the actual order internally of these things happening?)

[Replica]

@Nacho: Looks like Hectic just finished another scumgame. I lean that it bodes well, his level of thought never matched what it was here, but it might have been circumstances of the game. He definitely gimmicked a bit with the lolhammer but this was after the start of this game and well into our discussion on things like it.

[Replica]

@Replica:

In light of your recent post on alimdia, I re-read them.

Up to the point where they did a reads list by ISO, I basically liked their posting. In hindsight, I thought scumhunting by ISO like that was like “trying to put up content” vs “scumhunting.”

Again, nothing was “wrong” with it, per se, it’s just not how I would have gone about it as town and it didn’t feel right.

So where are you at on the slot now?

My most recent experience with alimdia was in this game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... B%5D=33529

She picked fights and questioned / appeared to sort plenty, especially early game, like this one. She fell off at the end of the game and couldn’t keep it up, but it was a perfect scum victory so perhaps she just (correctly) felt she didn’t have to.

My point is, I think ALL of that is within alimdia’s scumrange - not necessarily that it is scummy by itself, but that it doesn’t preclude her from being scum.

Can you take a look at this game and tell me what you think?

I read this like a week or two ago I think, looking at it fresh is nice. I definitely missed a lot of the organic evolution they started to build up as the game went on. This game is a more assertive alimdia for sure, but early on they're definitely falling into the same pattern as the other game: Concern over being objectively understood in their pushes, usually making the turn+laying out the case immediately rather than having the skepticism grow over time, and outside of a few "Why?" posts still not the same brash investigation and confusion they've had here. There's just a perpetual preemptive defensiveness to them, ex. #341 is a good example of the "Immediately lay out a case when you vote it" (Not inherently a scumtell, just an observation as to how alimdia specifically tends to give their reads as scum). #342 they preempt an objection they missed and immediately move to justify it.

I'll concede that there's a chance this game is alimdia scum, but I'd honestly be pretty surprised.

[Replica]

This game is a more assertive alimdia for sure, but early on they're definitely falling into the same pattern as the other game:

This is confusing for what games I'm referring to.

"Guns N Roses is a more assertive alimdia for sure, but early on in Guns N Roses they're definitely falling into the same pattern as the other scumgame"

[Replica]

I'm also pretty curious for your progression on Nacho; I agree with a lot of what he posted on Farkran, but what does it

mean for Nacho?

The problem I'm running into is that it's kinda lowhanging fruit/reinventing the wheel. If anything in this game is busywork, refuting some of Farkran's points is probably #1.

Being logically correct is easy as scum. There are obvious reasons for Nacho to do this as town, but it's also the easiest place to funnel effort and pretend to be gamesolving as scum. This is someone I'm really having trouble sorting, how does your experience with Nachotown/scum match up here?

[Replica]

I mean I think trying to look at it with new eyes has lessened my scumread of the slot a little but not enough to totally rock my world. The reason I started to pay more attention to the slot in general due to PoE and that’s still a strong part of why the slot has stayed within my sights. It’s not the same as being convinced in your heart that it is scum, but I’ve never felt that way over the slot. But like ... SOMEONE is scum.

I think Farkran is one, but whoever the other is is

really

eluding me so I'm running into a similar issue. And if Farkran isn't one, I am really up shit creek without a paddle.

Reason I really don't want to lynch in you/Nacho/Chemist: I don't know how much I get from one of you flipping town. Farkran town means sound the alarm, seeing only one of Nacho/Amrun/Chemist town just says "Well, I guess it's one of the other two probably" Chemist might make the most sense with Farkran imo, particularly if that Day 2 engagement was planned beforehand, but in a vacuum I'd lean him being town over you/Nacho just based off.

Actually just working through this in my head I'm questioning this Chemist in a vacuum read, his engagement with Fark was better than expected but other than that he's been really lackluster and his Day 1 defense of Asriel/Pine and his random heal voteswitch were still a headscratcher.

[Replica]

Chemist might make the most sense with Farkran imo, particularly if that Day 2 engagement was planned beforehand, but in a vacuum I'd lean him being town over you/Nacho just based off the atypical level of thought/engagement.

I didn't go back and finish this, corrected.

[Replica]

With chemist I’m mostly struggling to find the scum motivation to defend asriel the way he did so early, pine too but especially asriel, unless they’re specifically scum together. And even if they are it seems too noticeable. Idk.

I don't really agree with this and it was a big part of why I grilled Nacho earlier.

Defending town lurker lynches because they know they'll get credit is a pretty classic scummove.

Thinking about it though he did go further and spare Asriel, which is really bold for that scumteam. I'm still confused as to why he swapped the vote off Hectic-he said something about just wanting to do something new with it-but yeah.

Like I said, second scum for Farkran is really elusive this game, whether it's you playing well, Nacho playing safe, or Chemist being absent, and it's a big problem for me right now. If Farkran is town I REALLY have issues.

[Replica]

I really hate that I buy Chemist's #1026 feelings on Nacho and his reactions to alimdia/Bingle in #1478.

Back in the vacuum "eh not today" you go.

[Replica]

There are two slots I'm really waiting on more from. One is Chemist, the other is Nacho who is V/LA.

Someone else has to pick up the poking/activity torch this time. I'm completely occupied until Saturday. I feel personally at a dead end. I need help.

[Replica]

If nothing else, like, place some votes, give your preferences, or describe what's making it difficult to do so. The lack of either kind of vote across the board is absurd.

[Replica]

Chemist, man, this is literally your time to shine as town. If a lynch happens today, it is most likely to be on you or Farkran. If you don't get lynched, you will definitely not be nightkilled.

All of the town is looking to you right now for new perspective and content. We're looking to you to take this game to the next stage.

Literally scum is counting on you to just do nothing, halfass your reads, and be lynchbait. Please do not let this happen.

[Replica]

You don't have to qualify everything with "if you're town" "if you're mafia" when the reader can be expected to know what conditions apply.

[Replica]

Effort, dude. Reads. Yes, reading. Content that isn't me/Amrun/Farkran beating our heads on the wall for 50 pages.

I'm trying to motivate you to try and win the game by making it clear to you what the stakes are for you as town. Winning games are hard. Getting reads is hard. Being a good town player is hard. The best things in life are often very hard.

Teams are about taking turns and sharing burdens, dude. You've got to step up when that happens and carry some weight on your shoulders. Other people suffer when you don't, not just you.

[Replica]

Somewhere Nacho is sitting in a Nashville bar, sipping on a whiskey highball, listening to a Hank Williams cover band, not staring at a computer screen for hours at a time. I hate him for it.

[Replica]

Chara's a comparatively short+less looked at ISO if you want some direction, Chemist, but honestly random stuff might be more helpful.

[Replica]

...y-you wanna watch Cats (2019) together?

[Replica]

I've become the thing I hated most in life, a shitposter.

Someone pray for me

[Replica]

This game needs something radically different. We've got to switch up the rules of the game. "Business as usual" won't cut it anymore.

We can't keep looking to Chemist for bailouts, not while he's still got homework.

We need change. We need a new hero.

[Replica]

Hold the phones y'all, I've got an idea. I've got just the thing. Change is coming.

[Replica]

Nacho, man, this is literally your time to shine as town. If a lynch happens today, it is most likely to be on you or Farkran. If you don't get lynched, you will definitely not be nightkilled.

All of the town is looking to you right now for new perspective and content. We're looking to you to take this game to the next stage.

Literally scum is counting on you to just do nothing, halfass your reads, and be lynchbait. Please do not let this happen.

[Replica]

I'll be back in force tomorrow night instead of shitposting to procrastinate on the things I should be doing irl.

The fact that Farkran has been the only one to actually explain their read on me is pretty disappointing for me, but I try to leave it to others to ask about those.

I buy his team/kill analysis on me a lot more than I do the "genuine frustration" bit, which is a bad towntell both for me specifically and for most players in general.

[Replica]

The fact that the gap in these is 7 minutes and 2 minutes respectively does not fill me with optimism, either in that Chemisttown is seriously firing from the hip or is not town.

I got around to skimming Chara's ISO and like how it builds its ideas around townhunting and how it uses those to approach the game

I also think its Hectic read is genuine, especially if Hectic is town

I'm gonna reread around the D1 Sherlock/Suji situation and reactions to it now

I think Farkran, Hectic, and Chara all had towny reactions to the original Sherlock post, Amrun sticking out as the one that didn't

I'll reread from the FN claim now

I liked Amrun's reaction to the FN claim a lot actually

Chara's was okay, I didn't like Farkran's

I think I'm talking myself back into it being Bingle/Nacho

The team I think is most likely is Fark/Chemist but any team with Amrun/Nacho in it is very up in the air. Thinking about it I don't think Nacho/Fark is as plausible as I thought. This is true even without the vote, but now that I consider the vote it goes even further down imo I'm probably alone in thinking that Amrun/Fark is still possible, more just off the strength of Amrun. Amrun/Chemist I can also see, Nacho/Chemist is hypothetically possible but less so. Nacho/Amrun seems unlikely too.

I feel like I can pursue four avenues here.
1) Wait out deadline to strongarm Nacho/someone else into voting Fark
2) Amrun, who has probably spared 2 town and shares most of my reads. Probably the single most likely to be scum besides Fark, mostly because nightkills, but her partner is ???
3) Chemist, who we could easily get a coalition around and despite occasional flashes that make me gut townread him in general has awful, low-effort reads and bad interactions with the plausible scum (Fark/Amrun)
4) Nacho, no. Fark is shoving this and most teams with Nacho don't seem likely, the most plausible team here off the top off my head is like, Nacho/Chara.

#1 is likely. #3 would be my next choice. I'm also still really wishing we could spare one of me/Bingle today but that probably won't happen unless Amrun/Nacho come around to it.

[Replica]

Worst part here is that there's probably a way I could have forced a Bingle/me spare by not being honest with my preferences but here we are, in the year 2020, new decade new me.

That post was kind of a slipshod stream of consciousness/working the teams and lynch possibilities out on the fly, rather than something more reader-friendly, but ah well.

[Replica]

Did you not understand my explanation of my read on you?

Granted, it was pretty short, but posting towncases just isn’t my way.

I forgot about it, and I guess it works but it's not the greatest to me.

Like, I've also been tempted to call you town for the way our reads/interests have lined up at times. I think this makes more sense from my perspective than yours. Let's say I'm scum and you're town. If I have the same reads as you, there's not really any danger to me in doing so as long as it doesn't lead to my partner getting lynched. Either you probably townread my partner too, or my partner is Bingle...in which case it fully explains why I diverge here.

The same generally works in reverse with you being the scum, except you probably push Bingle to get a mislynch somewhere outside Fark.

...Thinking about it, though, why not just hardpush Fark with me and try to recruit Nacho to the cause in a Rep/Farktown, Amrun scum world? Maybe I'm being overly cautious here. I think you voting your partner is possible but not likely.

[Replica]

My preference is now something like Rep/Bingle spare -> Fark lynch -> Chemist lynch -> Amrun lynch -> Nacho lynch. The order on Nacho/Amrun causes me deeply spiritual pain me but you have to do what you have to do.

Last thing I really need to do is delve into Chara. This has been really difficult and my eyes have glazed over the last two times I tried but a bad townread here completely wrecks any chance of winning.

[Replica]

I made this instead and I'm not sorry.

[Replica]

Spoiler: Alright last shitpost/forbidden Nacho summoning technique of the night

♪ I need a Nacho ♪
♪ I'm holding out for a Nacho 'til the deadline time ♪
♪ He's gotta catch scum, and he can't be my mom ♪
♪ And he's gotta at least place a vote ♪

[Replica]

I understood it but didn't agree, working out the teams earlier today I came more to agreement though. I think Amrun still has a place if she's playing extremely well, Nacho is a bit more up in the air. I could see you too I guess but I didn't even consider this earlier since I am not really interested in potential Bingle teams rn.

I'm on my phone trying to fall asleep but I read about half of the Chara ISO and came away feeling much better this time, particularly about their Hectic progression and push for their spare over Suji Day 1. I'll finish up+try to lay it out more tomorrow. I also forgot how comically terrible Farkran's #945 was.

For Amrun, we've come a long way since #607. If I die, I'll miss you...FRIEND ;_;

but also one of us has to sit through a 5 way with at least one, if not both, of chemist/fark and dear sweet heavenly cat god on high don't let it be me

[Replica]

Amrun's posting about me lately would also be excellent scumplay. I've been very intentional to limit how much I credit her for our reads/mutual respect. I've expressed skepticism of reads matching up being a towntell, and expressed that I find it off that she isn't expressing the same kind of caution. Buttering me up really has not been working, for like, several days now.

But her reaction has been to keep posting about how much they value my posting/perspective and to double down on the dread of my removal. Instead of adjusting a strategy that clearly isn't working at best and is backfiring at the worst, she's doubling down. I would have expected her to just stop posting about it by now if she were scum.

[Replica]

Last few posts are basically my reads Bible.

I strongly doubt Fark is stubborn town. I am pretty sure based off the timing of his reads, along with select theatrics and a few godawful whiffs ("Can't miss" lack of Chara progression in my ISO for example). This gets strengthened, not weakened with Chemist scumflip.

Bingle is probably town, so is Chara.

[Replica]

Like at the time of that vote a spare on me could actually have happened for deadline reasons. Chara scum here would be absolutely insane.

[Replica]

To be clear, when I say godawful whiffs, I don't mean wrong reads. I mean reads that are

literally impossible

to have come about from naturally reading the game/an ISO regardless of how tunneled you are.

[Replica]

As for you, Fark, I've called specific posts+reads bad but in general I have said absolutely nothing about you being terrible if you're town, godawful townplayer, etc. I've kept it limited to "Not playing well if he's scum", which is by far the thing you've repeatedly gotten most heated about, "X read/post is bad" which...many of ours have been all game, and vaguely "I don't want to be stuck in 5 way with this dude". If you're town I haven't commented on your quality of play at all, because I know until I see the scum I can't judge it and I'd be playing awfully myself.

In comparison, you have shot all sorts of vitriol my way about how terrible and stupid of a player I am all game long. I think it's scum theater, but like as town you have drastically missed the point of my posts and have responded to phrases like "This push is bad" with persistent personal insults and character judgments

Have been wanting to say this for literally like a week but chose to just keep ignoring it but now's my last chance before you switch to flaming me for shit I never even said in the postgame.

[Replica]

lol

well, you can lead the horse to water but you can't make them drink

[Replica]

I mean, like, I've tried not to play this card but like...~5 of the players in this game have agreed that your arguments are regularly full of holes at best and insane at worst. Even the high schooler (no offense Chemist) easily spotted them. The conclusions we've drawn from this have been different, but yeah, if I'm wrong I accept I'm wrong. Me being wrong doesn't say anything about you as a player, it says a lot about me.

In comparison, you have been obsessed with proving your superiority over others all game and pearl clutched at the thought that your logical treatises are not a masterwork on the level of Godel's. I have admitted my reasoning has been bad countless times this game.

But in your case it is...everyone else that is wrong, Principal Skinner style.

[Replica]

Last I'll really say on that until postgame, given that scumFark has been trying to cast it as a catfight (hue)/ deathtunnel by FROTHING and ANGRY AND INSULTING Replica all game. I chose not to fire back until the end but now isn't the best time. I don't like the level of offense he's taken, and the level of vitriol he's directed my way all game, at me being wrong, but that's about it.

2032-2034 are the ones that matter.

[Replica]

Actually what am I saying here w/r/t Chem/Farkran team if Fark actually hammered hammered his scumpartner into mechanical autoloss that would be absolutely astounding. Man that is a stupid thought.

Probably townflips given that both Fark/Amrun are on it, alas

[Replica]

I really hope so, I'm struggling to see Nacho with anyone, I think Chara/Bingle are town, and I feel a lot better townleaning you now.

Fark/Chemist was my ideal solve but that got destroyed unless Fark literally hammered into autoloss. So yeah, I'd love Chemist/Hectic. One or more of my townreads are probably massively wrong instead though so it's a fun time.

[Replica]

Kills are easily the #1 thing pointing to Scumrun.

On the other hand, our favorite aspiring scientist is online and may be willing to grant us some final wisdom.

[Replica]

Shockingly I agree with Fark here, in that Fark/Chem town would probably lead me to Hectic/Amrun

[Replica]

Bring it in Amrun, I'm here, same, free us

[Replica]

I don't think I have anything to add to the things I said in the dead PT. The alignment that deserved to win did, congratulations to the scumteam.

Was fun playing. Thanks to pops for letting me replace-in and tolerating my cattiness.

[Replica]

I'll actually be vulnerable and reveal what I'm actually thinking instead of giving the minimum obligation.

#112 in the dead PT was made because I was incredibly disappointed in the quality of my play. In my eyes (the only ones that matter to me for quality of play) I played atrociously. This held true even when Farkran flipped scum. I hated my play this game, essentially from the get-go. Everything about it, everything about my approach.

I accepted that, thinking that I'd understand things are different for me now and accept that it might translate into a loss. The scumteam played a great game. As it became more and more apparent it was probably Chara, I even started rooting for the scumteam at a certain point even if I hoped they were town.

I was wrong. Seeing it translate to a loss was not fine. Disappointment in my play doesn't begin to describe it. I'm completely disgusted.

[Replica]

...Where did I get 112 from? Ah well I linked the right post anyway.

[Replica]

I'm not even wondering about quitting or not to, don't worry about that. Granted I haven't played in 2 years before this game, but I was just being a dramatic cat in that dead PT for a bit. If I have time I'll still be around.

It's just worth saying why I'm not as vocal about the end.

[Replica]

Like, I enjoyed several aspects of this game, the players being #1. It's just how I feel about the game makes it very difficult to pay those dues or devote any attention to other people's play, where praise, appreciation, and a hint of suggestion would be the ideal things to give.

[Replica]

Replica you are allowed to change your avatar now

Cute pop star boy pls

dream on, pops.

[Replica]

until you watch cats you're #1 on the REASONS TO DISLIKE list sorry pal

[Replica]

when i stop being a moody cat

when i stop making this about me and how upset I am and instead actually give real praise to the other players and celebrate a great game

whenever the heck that happens

it'll be time for the CATS (2019) WATCH PARTY