Open 798 | PYPX/Y+I/M | Game Over!

[Menalque]

ducky, can we get a prod on Best Bird pls?

Spoiler:

[Menalque]

I'm not interested in doing peta today but if we end up doing TGP instead of me and he flips scum, I would seriously think about doing peta tomorrow

[Menalque]

I'm not interested in doing peta today but if we end up doing TGP instead of me and they flip scum, I would seriously think about doing peta tomorrow

ebwop

[Menalque]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

I also just played with TGP and this is what I mean when I say they feel totally different here

[Menalque]

papa leaf was one of my first teachers in the way of the scum

[Menalque]

@mena
- I'm responsible for the block and you performed the NK because you were considered to have the most deepwolf potential/least likely to be blocked or tracked (yes I know for the purpose of this exercise you don't want me to include this but I'm including it anyway) -> mena + {infinity/tgp/JV/dunn?} (people who I think have less deepwolf potential and also auto-voted you after I softed, some of them in awkward ways that I think could have been bussing. JV in particular was like "oh is there a red check? I didn't see. where's the red check?")
- I'm responsible for the block and protected you from being killed -> skitter? infinity? idk if it's someone trying to frame town!infinity by killing you because wouldn't they assume that you'd go after infinity D2 anyway? why kill you to get that miselim instead of a PR? both of them being scum together feels a bit too obvious though.
- I'm not responsible for the block at all and doc/rb is out there that is instead
- I'm not responsible for the block but it's because scum (potentially knowing that there is a JK or doc/rb out there because they attempted to draft and didn't get it) intentionally no-killed to make the JK/doc/rb target look like they were the target or killer

I like the point about how the frame is less likely bc why not just let me pursue town!infinity on D2 and then kill me after I served my purpose if I was wanted dead (and in fact that's a strat I've explicitly used before as scum), which would maybe imply more directly that infinity is just scum, if I was saved by your JK

do you really think the intentional no-kill is a likely scenario, as in, at all?

kinda lowkey interesting that you didn't consider the implications of me claiming cop D1 in any of this, but I'm not sure in exactly what way

[Menalque]

also on reread I feel like mena/JV could be partners

yes I am well known for distancing with a partner and then completely undermining that by switching to a TR on them

[Menalque]

where are you townreading them? iirc you distinctly said you weren't when asked

oh, right

err, that has changed and I guess I am now

my point still holds about completely undermining that by not sticking to a hardbus/harddistancing if we were partners

[Menalque]

Menalque is the type of player who can attempt to spew a lurkscum slot town with posting that we can't verify until many flips have happened

whadda ya mean, lurkscum slot? this was a nothing slot before I came into it, pine had 4 posts!

[Menalque]

fml sorry quotes

lol

[Menalque]

I didn't really think you were hard distancing

I mean it looks that way from his side during your wagon at the beginning of the day, but that doesn't require you to bus him back?

right, exactly

if we were partners, it would look like we were hard distancing, that's my point

incidentally, if I were scum, these are exactly the sorts of posts I would be making to fake-spew JV as one of my partners

[Menalque]

What made you change your read on JV?

their kind of bad sheepy vote on me, refusal to really engage with me about why I was >rand scum when I tried to talk to them about it, all seem like things scum wouldn't do bc they'd look very bad after I flipped town

and they felt kinda townie when we were jamming about shit after that

[Menalque]

I didn't really think you were hard distancing

I mean it looks that way from his side during your wagon at the beginning of the day, but that doesn't require you to bus him back?

right, exactly

if we were partners, it would look like we were hard distancing, that's my point

incidentally, if I were scum, these are exactly the sorts of posts I would be making to fake-spew JV as one of my partners

uh... can you ELI5? I don't get what you're trying to say at all

just pride really, it prob makes more sense to talk about it post-game

I'm saying that if JV and I really were scum together, it wouldn't look like a bad/half-assed bussing job because I'd have told them they'd better fucking commit on the bus if that's the play and I'd be doing my very best to not look associated with them (whereas the way I'm posting about them -- i.e. trying to strongly argue we don't make sense as partners -- is the sort of shit I would do if I really were scum, only I wouldn't do it with my actual partner, I'd do it to a townie who I wanted town to THINK was my partner, in order to help my actual partners)

[Menalque]

like, I'm not gonna argue that I'm a scumgod or anything

but all I'm saying is that I think if there are 3 things I'm good at as scum, they are

(1) having a plan to win
(2) being very aware of how I'm perceived by the other players and very sensitive to that (albeit subtly)
(3) making sure that if I am going down I incriminate innocent townies and don't look like my partners are my partners

and it's just sorta funny that I'm being scumread this game, in a non-mechanical sense, for having supposedly done a really shitty job at the things which I'm actually pretty consistently strong at when I roll scum

I'm not expecting this post to actually make anyone feel better about my slot, but it's funny to me

[Menalque]

my vote on mena is also mechanical because of lillith's claim

wow, that's convenient!

[Menalque]

do you think there are 2 scum in the 4's, TGP?

[Menalque]

anyways why would she even take that slot if she hated vig and knew pgo was basically negative utility

obviously bc she thought (correctly) that it was one of the ones that might still be available

also because she said she thought there was a good chance scum might try to kill her on N1 which would let her elim one of them

[Menalque]

my vote on mena is also mechanical because of lillith's claim

wow, that's convenient!

so convenient! a player who is guaranteed to be a power role claimed jailkeeper on a slot that is incredibly unlikely to be nightkilled, and no nightkills occured.

why am I so unlikely to be a NK, TGP

you've played with me

am I not a threat to scum?

[Menalque]

you are a threat to scum
but a large portion of this playerlist is a threat to scum, including people who are far more likely to be actual powerroles come on

none of those people hardclaimed cop tho

and also, why is it implausible that either (1) scum!infinity freaked out and wanted me dead after D1 or (2) that the doc got a save on uncrowned/skitt on the same night I was JK'd?

[Menalque]

do you think there are 2 scum in the 4's, TGP?

[Menalque]

so scum... intentionally nuke their chances of having good PRs... allowing them to be caught or eliminated by town having a BOUNTY of PRs... for some WIFOM... that evaporates in usefulness the second one of them gets caught/tracked/whatever, or they just get PoE'd? that's what you're saying you think scum did in the draft phase?

[Menalque]

I mean, it doesn't have to be this way if y'all choose not for it to be

Well, obviously. My point was just that I think it's highly unlikely that enough people would come around to townreading you strongly enough to drop pressure on you entirely.

give me time friend
we can do a rerun of anuket topaz where almost everyone is TRing me by the end of today and then one slot stubbornly insists it's me tomorrow in spite of the wealth of evidence to the contrary, at which point we can speed elim me while I'm not around and I can go and be salty about how obvtown I was in dead thread and root for the scumteam

[Menalque]

you are a threat to scum
but a large portion of this playerlist is a threat to scum, including people who are far more likely to be actual powerroles come on

none of those people hardclaimed cop tho

and also, why is it implausible that either (1) scum!infinity freaked out and wanted me dead after D1 or (2) that the doc got a save on uncrowned/skitt on the same night I was JK'd?

i mean i don't think it's likely that you're actually a cop
and don't you commonly lolclaim

why should scum think that's unlikely tho

especially when there's a game very recently where a player toward the bottom end of the draft rolled cop

and I do, yes, but I also make my real claims look like lolclaims sometimes to fuck with scum

[Menalque]

and i think hoopla pp and you would that gamble

objection, I wasn't in the game when the decision would have been taken

[Menalque]

because you're near the bottom of the draft and cop is a commonly taken role
yes i know you do (our last game) but hypothetically if you were town, scum wouldn't know that

is it actually taken that commonly in practice? I haven't run the actual numbers or looked at the games

and I mean... if you're scum, scum would know that?

[Menalque]

JV in particular was like "oh is there a red check? I didn't see. where's the red check?"

Oh yeah this is a good point. If Menalque flips scum that post has a lot of partner equity.

can't tell if this is a joke post or not

[Menalque]

can't tell if this is a joke post or not

It's not a joke, though I'm only talking about that one post (1544) and not JV overall.

wasn't sure because I had that series of posts with lilith talking about how my interactions with JV are absolutely nothing like what they'd look like if we were scum together, but are exactly what they'd look like if I were scum trying to set up an innocent JV to go down after me

[Menalque]

Like Idk who tries to nk him here

infinity

[Menalque]

is it not possible or even plausible that scum targeted me for the NK as a generally fairly strong player who's annoying to try and kill via dayplay, and who they thought was unlikely to have the doctor on them (in the case that scum are aware there's a doctor in play)?

[Menalque]

wasn't sure because I had that series of posts with lilith talking about how my interactions with JV are absolutely nothing like what they'd look like if we were scum together, but are exactly what they'd look like if I were scum trying to set up an innocent JV to go down after me

Yeah, I know. If you are scum I won't really be attempting to read into anything you did today, for exactly that reason.

it's already in your head tho

[Menalque]

I'm in your brain, S_S

[Menalque]

I'll check lil tonight if I don't get killed during the day and if she doesn't jail me again

[Menalque]

Mena at this point it's incredibly obvious that's a fakeclam

that's what I want them to think

[Menalque]

hypothetically skitt, if it IS a fakeclaim, what's the benefit to pointing that out as opposed to acting like you think it's serious to try to bait scum into NKing me (which also resolves the problem of needing to sort my slot on play)

[Menalque]

Your play already belied it's fake, there's no point pretending, i dont you suddenly acting the part again amd me believing it is what's going to tip the scale on you being likely to be nk'd or not

eh, that's probably fair, yeh I am VT

Maybe i'm like horrifically tunneled but i'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around town!lilith

Does anybody townread lilith on play ???

no

[Menalque]

^that said, I do think her claiming a JK on me as scum is at the very least quite an ~out there~ thing to do if she's scum

[Menalque]

S_S, what is your read on me at this point anyway?

[Menalque]

On play probably slightly leaning town?

Only slightly?

[Menalque]

Can everyone still on me explain clearly and briefly why I’m scum to them, if they haven’t already?

[Menalque]

Weren’t you in GnR the third?

[Menalque]

Also I think I’ve played against you twice when I’ve been scum because I think I referenced GnR the third to throw you off me in the other one

Although I might be confusing you with datisi or icon or someone else

[Menalque]

Yeah, you were inGnR the third, I just checked it, it’s the game the quote in my sig is from

[Menalque]

Weren’t you in GnR the third?

Right, I blocked that game out lol.

Iirc I was only really able to catch you around D3 or so?

Correct, it was when I started pushing you as a misguillo because you were viable but not the best candidate for lylo

[Menalque]

Also I think I’ve played against you twice when I’ve been scum because I think I referenced GnR the third to throw you off me in the other one

Was it a DonCorleone game? For a while I didn't know that was you.

Ooooh might’ve been yeah, not sure

Although the only DC scumgame was a PyP game

[Menalque]

Oh yeah, that’s where I’ve played with you JV! It was the elmo teh azn PyP game!

[Menalque]

that game was so low-effort from everyone

I feel like that’s a little unfair

But ehh I take your broader point

[Menalque]

You have a mental model of my towngame?

[Menalque]

Would u believe me if I told u that the only metric I sort u by now is if ur posts make me laugh or not?

[Menalque]

I mean, maybe you don't adjust your play like that, but I got the impression that you were lazier there because you correctly figured that it didn't matter.

Spoiler:

it’s more just that the flow of the game didn’t need it once we were in control, imo

I think D1 and D4 in particular were quite strongly contested (the setup and the coup de grace) it’s just that people weren’t that motivated in the middle and so I didn’t need to be either, just had to make sure things didn’t go off the rails

I just feel like it was overall a game where we didn’t win bc town handed it to us by not playing, it’s that in the bits where people /did/ play we managed to manipulate things to our advantage so that we didn’t need to play so hard in the midgame

I only called out the point at all because the perfect win in that game is something I’m fairly proud of

[Menalque]

Then uh

My townread on you is for other super secret but very very valid reasons

[Menalque]

I vaguely remember that game

[Menalque]

The point is not “automatically assume a dangerous player will be the NK”


The point is “why does it seem unreasonable to you that /other players here/ might consider me a significant enough threat to get rid of me at night, even if you would not do so because you think that kill would be best used on PR hunting?”

[Menalque]

Quack?

[Menalque]

Quack

[Menalque]

Quack!

[Menalque]

mena you smell

[Menalque]

Frankly, if Best Bird is scum they’ve already won because I’m never voting there

[Menalque]

Who’s solving/doing things

Me, skitt, S_S, uncrowned, dave, JV

Kinda the penguin, kinda lili

Who is not:

Hoopla, TGP, infinity, dunn

Kinda peta

[Menalque]

Like I think that the scum is concentrated there but if I am a miselim this game then you only get one more after me then you have to be perfect, and there’s currently 5 names and a fairly unimpressive lil left even if all my other TRs are right

So basically: yo your game(s)?

[Menalque]

I'm gonna get this one

quack

vote count 2.08

Menalque (4)

: lilith2013, JacksonVirgo, Dunnstral, TheGoldenParadox

TheGoldenParadox (4)

: Uncrowned, Best Bird, skitter30, Menalque

JacksonVirgo (1)

: petapan

Not voting

: davesaz, Something_Smart, Hoopla, Infinity 324

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-13 13:00:00)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- skitter30 v/la fridays & saturdays
- quack

[Menalque]

(1) I would strongly suggest you take a look in my scum PTs if you're interested in that because I think they're fairly solid evidence (from me talking to my partners about what I'm doing and why) that I have a good grasp of optics. I think I generally have a good idea of how things are going to look superficially, and I think town often does base their decision making on those things. if you look at my most recent scumgame, I was very keen on killing saudade bc I knew that would point towards kerset (my buddy) and would allow me to get more credit from bussing him hard on the logic of "saudade has been killed therefore kerset is more likely to be scum" than if he was eliminated D1 where saudade would get all that cred and not me. It also meant that the slots who had been more tied to him on D1 (defending etc) would look worse and we could chain eliminate them for the win. So when I say 'optics' I mean I'm very aware of scum as to who will get cred and for what, and I intentionally manipulate that to benefit myself. I'm always hesitant to throw that away or to look 'bad' if I can possibly avoid it, because for the last several scum games I've had I've been the 'senior partner' so to speak, or the one taking the main role in planning and acting for the scumteam.

(2) I feel like I'm focusing on it at this point because it keeps getting brought up? like I brought it up a few times while talking about infinity on D1 bc I think you're a major threat IF scum, and I was very confident in my infinity scumread at the time, and so was concerned about being right and then getting ignored on you (possibly after eating the NK for my trouble). so I felt obliged to mention it slightly more to try and avoid the rest of town forgetting about it if I did die.

then you taking particular objection to it, and there being a lot of talk about infinity in general, has meant that it's kept coming up -- like, even here. I'm quite happy to shelve it until infinity's alignment is revealed, should that be the case, but in this case I think it was something you brought up again, so I addressed it in that long post, and now you're responding, and now I'm addressing it again... so it just keeps lingering on.

(3) I'm talking specifically about the start of the day, and I think I've very much acknowledged that you've done things like avoid keeping me at G-1 when that's benign you power, and I don't think I implied that you were still being like that at the time I made that post -- like, the first sentence is in past tense, I'm talking about my perception of your behaviour earlier today, not rn. if you wanted me dead rn you'd be pushing me/voting me, that much is clear

yeah, I'm aware that scum!you proooobably doesn't worry about me pointing the finger at you as I'm going down. I'm very aware that town tend to listen far too little to dead town in their games, and so most of the time you can just shitpush someone to death and even if they're like "uh, guys, you know this push is really awful right, pls make sure you eliminate this person tomorrow" >50% of the time town just like, forgets during the night phase. so basically, yeah, I think this is a reasonable argument for you to make -- my concern is that I also don't think scum you would take unnecessary exposure/risk without needing to. and I think you shitpushing me (unless you could get me quick flipped, which admittedly was possible) is something you might not wanna do because a big fight with me where I die yelling about how you're obvscum probably at least makes the game more difficult for you as time goes on and people maybe wonder why you're not dead and possibly refer back to me yelling about you being obvscum. so I can see you as scum choosing to take a softer tone with me, but still assuming I'm likely to die and wanting the benefit of me townreading you when I do

(4) I think I already addressed this in (2) tbh. I also *wasn't* calling you scum on D1, I was just talking about cases where you *could* be scum or would /likely/ be scum imo. I didn't actually think you were scum at the time, and the much bigger thing was you pushing me today for what I felt (and still feel somewhat) was a dubious reason that I was unconvinced town!you would push me for. I'm rethinking that now, but I'm still not townreading you exactly. It's like, you're coming across very townie, but your actions have worried me around that and I'm trying to decide if you really believe that I'm not hyperaware of my optics as scum or if this is BS that you're pulling on me. I'm doing my best to assume good faith but like the niggle is still there if you feel me

[Menalque]

I would lowkey feel better about it if it was less you and me talking about each other and more you and me trying to work out other slots together

although I do feel it was a necessary conversation, I just don't want to drag it on indefinitely

[Menalque]

what do you think of my broad pools skitt

what do you think of infinity today

[Menalque]

Who’s solving/doing things

Me, skitt, S_S, uncrowned, dave, JV

Kinda the penguin, kinda lili

Who is not:

Hoopla, TGP, infinity, dunn

Kinda peta

does solving/doing things equate to town? or just mean you're not interested in them today?

basically, bar lil

I currently think all the scum is in (hoopla, TGP, infinity, dunn, peta, lili)

[Menalque]

but narrowing that down isn't super easy

I think if TGP!scum -> increased equity on peta, but doesn't help with the 3rd other than I think hoopla's equity prob goes down

if infinity!scum maybe lilith scum equity goes up too

if peta!scum then I think hoopla's equity goes up (really gotta check this/keep better notes) because *someone* and I think it was him, said they tend towards bussing when scum and hoopla is one of the people he pushed on

[Menalque]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

I also just played with TGP and this is what I mean when I say they feel totally different here

i'm going over this and they read decently similarly? what are you seeing this game that's so different?

I think they were significantly more pro-active, less tunnel-y and more focused on sorting the PL in general, had a much more light-hearted tone, and were very interested in working with me

I also really hated their vote on me and the way they made it

[Menalque]

why is Dave in the weaker tier? I thought you were quite confident on him after his reaction yesterday at EoD

also, JV I'm kinda surprised isn't higher, I thought you were quite confident there

also, I don't disagree on the penguin, but what's making you put him up at around the top tier? same for S_S?

[Menalque]

not sure how i get classed as "kinda not doing things" compared to some of those people

hey, there's a reason you were in the kinda section! I would like to see more from you today tho

I feel like you haven't really done that much since D2 started

[Menalque]

in real time / in context they were absurdly town

okay, why

[Menalque]

skitter, assuming I'm town, how much scum do you think opportunistically hops onto me for the perceived easy/fast elim

[Menalque]

yoinks

[Menalque]

i was super interested in working with you d1. i'm voting you because there's essentially a guilty on you, and you've claimed vt so it's not like we're losing a town pr.
it just makes no sense to me that you would be nked n1 over players who would be nked n1 for their strength AND are far more likely to be prs

yet you also made a thing about how my reads are bad bc my SRs are concentrated in the PRs, and you called out that you think that the scum strat was to have 2 in the 4s (and I guess 1 5 who was supposed to get a PR) in order for town to like eat themselves or something and I don't think that's a likely scum strat at all

and also you're hung up on the "why would scum NK mena N1" thing when we've already covered that there are at /least/ a couple of plausible explanations for there being no NK on N1 that don't necessarily imply that the reason there was no NK has anything to do with me being JK'd

[Menalque]

like the whole "I'm fine eliminating you because you've now claimed VT" thing seems lowkey kinda lazy in a game that's this PR heavy

yes, I'm aware of the irony after my insistence that shelly should die in the mini-normal

[Menalque]

Mena/skitter interactions super feel like T/T, there's an attitude of "I'm paranoid of you but hope you're town and want to work with you"

yeah tbh that's also why i think he's +town, last time we did this (me-town, him-scum), the argument just never ended, because he kept forcing it and dragging it along, even tho i tried to disengage a whole bunch of times

I'm not sure that's an /entirely/ fair characterisation of what happened but something something time, something something place

does tgp have a lot of experience with scum!you mena?

none, as far as I'm aware, although he may have read datisi's mini-normal (where I was town) simultaneously to the mini-normal we played together (where we were both town)

[Menalque]

last time we did this (me-town, him-scum)

wait shit, when was this

I thought this said when we were both town at first glance and was thinking you meant the newbie game

are you talking about JK9++

[Menalque]

i like that he came around to scum!tgp before it was popular

How much does that count for if TGP isn't scum?

best bird is still strong town vibes either way

I think skitter basically approaches him the same way I do

[Menalque]

vote count 2.10

Menalque (4)

: lilith2013, JacksonVirgo, Dunnstral, TheGoldenParadox

TheGoldenParadox (4)

: Uncrowned, Best Bird, skitter30, Menalque

JacksonVirgo (2)

: petapan, Infinity 324

Not voting

: davesaz, Something_Smart, Hoopla

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-13 13:00:00)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- skitter30 v/la fridays & saturdays
- quack

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-

[Menalque]

last time we did this (me-town, him-scum)

wait shit, when was this

I thought this said when we were both town at first glance and was thinking you meant the newbie game

are you talking about JK9++

no i'm talking about the newbie where i was town and you were scum and we argued nonstop and i kept trying to disengage because we were taking over the newbie ...

i'll the number if you want

I was town that game wasn't I?

[Menalque]

I'm super easy to read if you are good at reading me.

i think (?) i fall into this category

nah, sorry

[Menalque]

in real time / in context they were absurdly town

okay, why

he came up with that explanation /follow up *really* fast (in like a handful of minutes), and it's a thought process that i think is kinda unlikely to come from scum

similarly partly why i think you're town now is that you're writing with conviction and clear follow-through on posts in very quick real time (like the wall you just responded to minutes after i posted mine)

skitter, assuming I'm town, how much scum do you think opportunistically hops onto me for the perceived easy/fast elim

a whole bunch

I'm thinking about the infinity thing. I will say that if TGP!scum then infinity scum seems less likely by a margin

what do you think about peta if TGP!scum?

and can you explain the "a whole bunch" thing? why do you think a lot of them would jump on for the quick/easy elim?

[Menalque]

I'm super easy to read if you are good at reading me.

i think (?) i fall into this category

nah, sorry

?

I mean, I don't think I'm

awful

* at reading you but it's never easy, and I can't think of anyone who can consistently distinguish between your towngame and scumgame

*not saying I'm good

[Menalque]

maaaaaybe ank? but that's it

[Menalque]

last time we did this (me-town, him-scum)

wait shit, when was this

I thought this said when we were both town at first glance and was thinking you meant the newbie game

are you talking about JK9++

no i'm talking about the newbie where i was town and you were scum and we argued nonstop and i kept trying to disengage because we were taking over the newbie ...

i'll the number if you want

I was town that game wasn't I?

yeah i actually jsut checked
lol nm

lol

lmao I just had this moment of doubt when I thought I was so hard into the "pretend I'm town" headspace as scum that I actually had changed my memory of that game

does that like, impact your read here at all?

[Menalque]

maaaaaybe ank? but that's it

She was saying that she's good at reading me.

ooooh

oooooooooohhhh

I'm dumb lol

[Menalque]

quack

goddamnit

[Menalque]

what do you think about peta if TGP!scum?

and can you explain the "a whole bunch" thing? why do you think a lot of them would jump on for the quick/easy elim?

i don't raelly have any thoughts/associatives between tgp/peta. i don't think that scum!tgp affects my read there

and ... why wouldn't they? esp. after a quasi-guilty? easy lim to hop on, loads of momentum, easy to slip on (cough tgp cough)

I guess I'm just trying to see it fypov

this is exactly the sort of thing where I personally wouldn't want to hop on as scum bc I think it would look bad after I flipped. so I guess I'm trying to see why you think scum would get enough of a free pass for the mechanical thing (especially as that wasn't made explicit until I already had like 5 votes I think?) to risk the exposure after my town flip. does that make sense? and then it's slightly troubling to me that with my current reads, if they're right, it would mean basically the entire scumteam decided to jump on me

I just think peta has been like soft TRing TGP all game and is only kinda voting him now that he's under a lot of pressure. basically, what you said about DGB's lili vote on D1 I think applies to peta's TGP vote here. if TGP flips scum, I don't think peta should get any credit for it and should be looked at carefully tomorrow, even tho I also like him for town on a gut sorta level

[Menalque]

lmao I just had this moment of doubt when I thought

I was so hard into the "pretend I'm town" headspace as scum

that I actually had changed my memory of that game

wait what? what does this mean

it doesn't change my read here

as in like, when you said I was scum in that newbie and you were town

I thought for a moment that you were right, but that I'd been so committed to the "act like you're town" thing as scum that when I was thinking back on the game I'd actually convinced myself I was a townie that game

[Menalque]

maybe it's bc you're like really really obvtown uncrowned

[Menalque]

the same goes for skitter too. can we please try for a better balance of voices?

I will try to be better abt this, apologies

+1 in that i will try not to actively make the game unpleasant for you hoopla, but equally my style is much more just responding to what’s in front of me when I’m here and as it comes to mind than trying to condense that into big forced posts. Realistically what I can offer is that if I notice I’m posting a lot I will intentionally vacate thread or give it a chance to breathe and for people to catch up before resuming posting again

[Menalque]

Skitter, who would you have targeted for a kill last night if you were scum?

[Menalque]

Also, I’m up-to-date, there’s nothing I particularly want to/feel the need to comment on, and am approaching the point where my

LUST FOR BLOOD

need to get more information from flips to continue solving/to not spiral off into paranoia about the gamestate means I think we should start thinking about who we’re actually killin’ today

TGP i think is probably a decent shout. I’ve decided I’m still not sold on infinity!town despite skitter’s points, but don’t wanna fight her on it today. I think if TGP is scum we are probably mostly in control of the game/gamestate, and if he’s not then we might be more snowed than I think

I think wagons point tentatively towards TGP!scum — as in, the people on him are mostly townie, he was a counter wagon to town originally, his wagon hasn’t really grown very fast compared to the wagon on town which shot up to G-1 instantly, and there’s now an effort to get a counterwagon to him going on Dunn (which, despite dunn being scummy, does maybe make dunn somewhat +town if TGP!scum)

[Menalque]

I also don’t like the “I’m lhf” thing that TGP has argued multiple times. I ISO’d him in the game we played together where he also came under pressure and he only tried to call himself LHF as a way to divert pressure a single time (that I could find via ctrl+f in his ISO) whereas here he’s appealed to that defense multiple times

[Menalque]

Who is in your scum pool, TGP and who are your top 3 picks within it

[Menalque]

Maybe I’m being absolutely baited here, but I don’t think peta and JV are aligned

I’m starting to get heebies about the wagon being stagnant but equally sometimes scum just wait it out

Someone hammer? Idk what we’re waiting for at this point

[Menalque]

Dunn, what did you think of 2189? Who's scum other than mena?

I'm not reading walls of text or really considering other possibilities until Mena is elim'd

That seems exceptionally lazy dunn, ngl

[Menalque]

Esp when ur scumread on me is mostly based on what seems to be a fairly consensus-ly weak mechanical reason?

[Menalque]

It boggles the mind to choose venge over N3 vig but okay

[Menalque]

@skitter why are you still alive?

[Menalque]

@skitter why are you still alive?

Wait, axtually don’t answer this

[Menalque]

uhh my scumpool is like {infinity, hoopla, penguin, dunn, dave} in that order

okay yeah

i'm confident in hoopla being scum

not confident in infinity anymore goddamn it

menal is a black box and i refuse to try to read that

this is green

powerlim dunn tomorrow

and then get hoopla because she's so scummy it's scary

[Menalque]

Yep. Everything is fake. How do you even play like this?
Like I said... it's a great strategy when you're scum.

If there's anything that players may think is town...

CALL IT FAKE

Tomorrow I recommend that you slay petapan and Menalque.

[Menalque]

My solve right now is looking like TGP/Dunn/Peta but I don't know why that team would target Mena for the NK, assuming we didn't get a doctor save off N1.

The way I currently see it is

Preferred Elim: TGP or Dunn

People we could consider elimming: Mena, JV.

Everyone else I don't think is a good elim for today tbh

I also have reservations about townleaning Dave too much and would like a bit more engagement from Lilith, although I guess from her perspective it makes sense not to be too interested in today's happenings

actually scratch that either way I think Dunn is scum here

[Menalque]

VOTE: dunn

[Menalque]

Reminder that G-2 is now the equivalent of G-1 because Not_Mafia will lolhammer anyone at G-1

[Menalque]

vote count 2.07

Menalque (5)

: lilith2013, Infinity 324, JacksonVirgo, Dunnstral, TheGoldenParadox

TheGoldenParadox (4)

: Uncrowned, Best Bird, skitter30, Menalque

JacksonVirgo (1)

: petapan

Not voting

: davesaz, Something_Smart, Hoopla

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-13 13:00:00)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- skitter30 v/la fridays & saturdays
- quack

vote count 2.08

Menalque (4)

: lilith2013, JacksonVirgo, Dunnstral, TheGoldenParadox

TheGoldenParadox (4)

: Uncrowned, Best Bird, skitter30, Menalque

JacksonVirgo (1)

: petapan

Not voting

: davesaz, Something_Smart, Hoopla, Infinity 324

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-13 13:00:00)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- skitter30 v/la fridays & saturdays
- quack

This is an interesting point for the VCs

[Menalque]

the dunnstral hammer was obvious scum shit

Why was it?

[Menalque]

lilith also looks really bad if you look back at D1 and see the way the wagon went up on uncrowned, then moved to her, and then there were two CWs to her one after the other (first JV, then DGB)

Atm i think I’d rather do dunn due to uncrowned and TGP’s strong feelings of scum there tho

[Menalque]

lilith, you should claim your JK

[Menalque]

Okay, that’s a reasonable take to have on it

I don’t think the hammer was actually that scummy in itself, I think self-preservation is p NAI especially when you have a PR and TGP was more or less the decided guillo by that point

[Menalque]

The role choices of the people who have flipped are really making me question my setup spec. Specifically whether scum would've chosen 1-shot vig. I think it's 100% correct to do so but maybe other people disagreed.

Huh? I’m confused by what relevance this has to... anything?

[Menalque]

...how?

[Menalque]

I think informed is overall suboptimal compared to multitasking but might make more sense for a scumteam with good draft positions, in line with that

You take cop to deny it to town, but you also need to know another role you can claim instead of cop to avoid having to give hard innos throughout the game and limit your options — which would actually like up v well with JK if no-one took it

Lil, explain why you took JK when you get here?

[Menalque]

Also

ducky, can you lmk what role pine tried to get pls?

[Menalque]

Okay, that’s a reasonable take to have on it

I don’t think the hammer was actually that scummy in itself, I think self-preservation is p NAI especially when you have a PR and TGP was more or less the decided guillo by that point

wasn't close to deadline and absolutely does not excuse voting with a scumread on someone he was vaguely defending when his only reasoning was "don't vote park me"

Ehh still

If I know I’m town, and I have a PR, and pressure is starting to build on me and there’s clearly a majority who are at least okay with flipping my CW I’d hammer regardless of a scumread being on the wagon, I might just be wrong after all

Like I think dunn is quite likely to be scum but I don’t think the hammer is an open and shut case

[Menalque]

In fact if quickhammers weren’t explicitly a part of Dunn’s scum meta, I’d even give him towncred for doing something that looks so obviously awful

However, he knows this and exploits it as scum, so I’m not

[Menalque]

I think informed is overall suboptimal compared to multitasking but might make more sense for a scumteam with good draft positions, in line with that

informed/multitasking was picked before draft positions were revealed

Oh

Well, uh

Scratch that thought then

...how?

If scum want to go for 1-shot vig, the only reason not to take it is because they thought town would get it first. If lilith/dunn are scum then they can just snag 1-shot vig if they want it. I was thinking there wasn't scum in the top few slots for this reason. However, if my assumption is wrong and scum didn't go for 1-shot vig, lilith/dunn can be scum.

Hmm

[Menalque]

I actually sort of think lilith and dunn could be scum together

[Menalque]

I’m pretty sure there is at least one but not 3 scum in (lil, Dave, Best Bird, peta, infinity)

[Menalque]

I think there is still a decent chance of 1 scum in (hoopla, best bird, infinity)

[Menalque]

I think there is still a decent chance of 1 scum in (hoopla, best bird, NM)

EBWOP

[Menalque]

vote count 2.06

Menalque (6)

: lilith2013, Infinity 324, JacksonVirgo, Hoopla, Dunnstral, TheGoldenParadox

TheGoldenParadox (2)

: Uncrowned, PenguinPower

JacksonVirgo (1)

: petapan

Infinity 324 (1)

: Menalque

Not voting

: davesaz, Something_Smart, skitter30

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-13 13:00:00)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- skitter30 v/la fridays & saturdays
- JacksonVirgo v/la til 06/11/2020
- quack

There’s also prob 1 scum in (Best Bird, peta, Dave. S_S, skitt)

[Menalque]

I’m pretty sure there is at least one but not 3 scum in (lil, Dave, Best Bird, peta, infinity)

Where did you get this group from

DGB EoD voters

[Menalque]

I think it’s unlikely the entire scumteam would be on DGB there, but I also think it’s unlikely there was absolutely no scum on

[Menalque]

What a meme if the scumteam picked 2,3,4

[Menalque]

Is there a reason to believe that beyond simple statistics?

Nope, it’s just part of how I work, I think most games there is *a* scum on the D1 wagon

[Menalque]

VOTE: lilith

[Menalque]

{skitter}
{s_s, mena, bird, dave}
{hoopla, peta}
{jv, dunn, lilith}

Can you give me the reasons behind these placements pls

[Menalque]

Nope, it’s just part of how I work, I think most games there is *a* scum on the D1 wagon

I mean, yeah, but that means you could pick any random group of people and the claim would be just as strong.

...how?
I don’t think that makes sense at all

[Menalque]

@skitter why are you still alive?

i have no idea
i have some speculatation but i don't wnat to say atm

I really wish you hadn’t answered this, because I had 5 reasons and now I’m down to 3

[Menalque]

I’m very okay wagoning lili until we get some solid content from her and some explanations

It’s v fishy that scum didn’t kill her last night imo

[Menalque]

also mena, at this point i think a more important question is why isn't lilith dead

Yah I have some thoughts on this but I’d like to wait for her to arrive

[Menalque]

I’m going to sleep soon I hope so I want to re-iterate this again

do not put anyone to G-1 as Not_Mafia will lolhammer them instantly and there is still a lot to talk about today

[Menalque]

Any thoughts other than me being scum, dunn?

[Menalque]

because I was guaranteed to get the slot I wanted and I thought I had a reasonable shot at doing things with JK?

My point is more like, why not take doc or cop?

[Menalque]

I’d like to hear from Dave, Best Bird, S_S and maybe a bit more from dunn before we proceed

[Menalque]

Who do you think is scum at this point lil?

[Menalque]

Okay, can you talk to me about why you think those people are scum?

Do you also think there is likely scum in (me, skitter)?

[Menalque]

Spoiler:

vote count 1.06

lilith2013 (5)

: davesaz, PenguinPower, skitter30, Uncrowned, Hoopla

Uncrowned (2)

: JacksonVirgo, DrippingGoofball

JacksonVirgo (1)

: lilith2013

Infinity 324 (1)

: petapan

Not voting

: Something_Smart, Dunnstral, Pine, TheGoldenParadox, Infinity 324

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-02 21:15:00)

mod notes

:
- skitter30 v/la Fridays & Saturdays
- quack

vote count 1.21

lilith2013 (5)

: PenguinPower, skitter30, Uncrowned, petapan, DrippingGoofball

petapan (2)

: Hoopla, JacksonVirgo

skitter30 (1)

: Dunnstral

JacksonVirgo (1)

: lilith2013

Hoopla (1)

: TheGoldenParadox

TheGoldenParadox (1)

: davesaz

davesaz (1)

: Infinity 324

Not voting

: Something_Smart, Pine

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-02 21:15:00)

mod notes

:
- skitter30 v/la Fridays & Saturdays
- quack

vote count 1.22

lilith2013 (6)

: PenguinPower, Uncrowned, petapan, DrippingGoofball, Infinity 324, davesaz

petapan (2)

: Hoopla, JacksonVirgo

skitter30 (1)

: Dunnstral

JacksonVirgo (1)

: lilith2013

Hoopla (1)

: TheGoldenParadox

Not voting

: Something_Smart, Pine, skitter30

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-02 21:15:00)

With 14 alive it takes 8 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- "with X alive" text included just because I love you all.
- skitter30 v/la Fridays & Saturdays.
- quack

[Menalque]

S_S has actually got quite a lot of scum equity

Lili, what’s your read on S_S?

[Menalque]

'course - the same could be said for mena

In fairness, there was a G-1 wagon on me yesterday, so scum probably aren’t wrong in thinking this is a game where I’m misguillotineable

[Menalque]

I have a question: if lili is scum, and JK, why does she claim it yesterday and specifically why does she claim it on me?

[Menalque]

S_S I’m kinda coming round to you being scum dude

[Menalque]

Well I kinda looked at your ISO and you don’t actually look like you’ve been trying to solve since D1 and honestly despite knowing you’re reserved with your vote it’s really bothering me quite a lot that you have voted literally nobody and we’re in D3 now

[Menalque]

Okay but I feel like I’ve caught you as scum for the exact same reasons before and I feel like this is u doing the same thing again?

[Menalque]

And I'm sorry that you're bothered by my lack of voting but how does that translate to my alignment?

I think that despite you being reluctant to vote when you’re town (and therefore have actual reads) you’re more inclined to vote than when you’re scum and all your reads are fabricated

[Menalque]

I mean, just because I did X and it made you scumread me and you were right, does not mean that you caught me for doing X.

In this case X is something I do frequently. Have you really never seen me change my level of engagement between days as town? I do that all the time.

Mmmm, but this feels a lot like the arguments I’ve seen you make around setups where it’s like “but if scum had done this one thing differently they would have won” which is like.. okay, maybe, but the counterfactual doesn’t change everything and scum still lost.

In this case it’s more the lack of solving I’m concerned about than just a drop off in engagement, and so while yes, that COULD just be bc of the rl factors you mentioned, it could also be that your ISO lacks solving bc you’re just scum

I think that despite you being reluctant to vote when you’re town (and therefore have actual reads) you’re more inclined to vote than when you’re scum and all your reads are fabricated

Why?

(You may be right; I'm not sure.)

Bc if you’re town I think you’re more inclined to slap a vote down when you get to a fairly high level of confidence; as scum, you have to artificially decide when you would have reached that point, and figuring out whether town!you would have been convinced of that person’s scumminess by point X is harder than just being convinced of that person’s scumminess by point X. So if you’re not around, it can just slip by you day after day without you voting

[Menalque]

I think lili is locktown

[Menalque]

I also think skitt may be scum

UNVOTE:

[Menalque]

My logic on lili being locktown is as follows:

There is confirmed to me that there is a JK in the slots above me (pine requested JK and didn’t get it)

Lilith is claimed JK

I don’t see why scum lili would claim a JK on me there but I think town!lili excited because she thought it was a guilty /totally would/ out herself there


***

I think skitter is scummy for not being dead and for pushing lili like this, which is what I think scum would do if there’s a doctor in the game who blocked the kill N1 and who scum are worried would cover lili last night

[Menalque]

lili
Infinity
Best Bird, hoopla
NM
Dave
Skitt, peta, S_S, dunn

Oh, and I voted lili bc I wanted to see if scum would hop on the CW to dunn or not

[Menalque]

In this case it’s more the lack of solving I’m concerned about than just a drop off in engagement, and so while yes, that COULD just be bc of the rl factors you mentioned, it could also be that your ISO lacks solving bc you’re just scum

Well, there's an easy way out of this then. What do you want to talk about?

This is exactly the thing

I don’t think, if you were town, that I would need to find things to try and generate discussion about or to engage you on, I think you’d be doing that naturally and organically by yourself, exploring those avenues and pushing where you need to

[Menalque]

I think skitter is scummy for not being dead

If there's a doctor, wouldn't that also explain this?

Maaaaaybe but honestly it’s really weird that scum wouldn’t take a shot between JK!lil and town!skitt last night (esp with skitt being so high in the draft)

I don’t think, if you were town, that I would need to find things to try and generate discussion about or to engage you on, I think you’d be doing that naturally and organically by yourself, exploring those avenues and pushing where you need to

I never said you did? But it's never a bad thing to have discussions on topics that multiple people are interested in.

Okay, like, what are your reads can be a place to start then? What do you make of lili? What do you think of dunn at EoD yesterday?

[Menalque]

Tbf infinity maybe shouldn’t be so high, and the general middle sections are all in flux

What are you not getting about it? I think lili being locktown really changes the face of the game

[Menalque]

And given lili being locktown, I think your play around her looks incredibly like scum angling to misguillo a PR

esp when added to my inquietudes re: your play early yesterday around my slot

And that there is still a reasonable chance that the N1 kill could have been on me, in which case I think you’re arguably the most likely person to make that kill given my D1 reads

[Menalque]

Also, uh, when *you* are a UTR and you’re not dead by D3 I think that’s justification in itself to be suspicious

It’s not like you’ve been under threat of being the guillotine in a serious way at any point this game

And yet scum are happy to leave you alive? Mmmm

[Menalque]

Skitter, do you think you’re being townread for good reasons?

[Menalque]

skitter- She's been pretty obvtown honestly, she's been really transparent and the interaction with mena during d2 felt really T/T to me. I think she could be alive cause of a doc but we'll have to find out.

Such as this, for instance

[Menalque]

This game is starting to make my brain do the hurt thingy

[Menalque]

VOTE: dunn

this is de facto G-1 with NM in the game, let’s get an intent on dunn

[Menalque]

My townreads are in some order skitter, dave, Menalque, lilith,

Can you explain these please?

I also feel like someone else owes me an explanation of their reads

[Menalque]

i don't want to vote out dunn rn really

That’s unfortunate, I do

[Menalque]

Noted, yet also something that I think makes you infinitely more suspicious if dunn is town

[Menalque]

I don’t really understand how you’re looking at dunn and lili together and defending dunn while pushing lili

[Menalque]

Tbf i would consider killing NM today just because that’s most always a solid move if he’s not gonna play

[Menalque]

I did have that thought but tbh I would legit find you less suspicious if dunn is scum so *shrug*

It’s hoopla who thinks you make sense as scum together, not me

[Menalque]

Like I don’t get what there is to see in dunn to actually defend him here vs just going “ehh no strong feels“ so if he does flip town it feels a lot like TMI

If he’s scum then I think you’d probably bus for the cred or take a stronger stance on saving him? So actually I think if dunn is scum your town equity goes up

[Menalque]

I don’t really understand how you’re looking at dunn and lili together and defending dunn while pushing lili

i don't htink they're scum together and i there's some subset of universes where they're tvt
and if there's one scum there it's probably lilith

lilith being scum still requires a compelling explanation for why she (1) chose JK and then (2) claimed it D2 on me and then (3) didnt deathtunnel me based off that but acknowledged there could have been a doc save

[Menalque]

Your lilith problem just feels kind of fake? Because I know you’re a logical player and I don’t see how you’re not just looking at those facts and going “hmm, yeah, this does make little to no sense as things for scum!lili to do, i guess she is town” and are instead dragging it out

And that’s like, doubly suspicious if there /is/ a doc out there, because it means lili is potentially unkillable vía the NK and a problem if she can keep a second protect out at night/can get guilties later on

[Menalque]

Why bird or Dave?

I don’t think bird is that bad still

Dave I have soured on a little and want more from

[Menalque]

I don’t have a reason for Best Bird town other than “I just kinda feel that way I guess”

[Menalque]

if lilith is in fact scum and i let people talk me out of voting her out like four times i am going to be doing a massive 'i told you so' thing in post

Fair, if lili is scum I’m prob throwing here *shrug*

she isn't town on play. that's more important to me than the mechanics stuff and i literally can't just ignore it or drop it. that's not how my brain works.

But there are compelling-ish explanations for her being out of touch with the game based on IRL reasons? Which could give the game the appearance of her scumgame even while town

I mean, if you can come up with a compelling theory on why scum!lil claims her JK shot there and like that then I will consider it, because I don’t love her okay either, but lacking that explanation it seems much better for EV to assume she’s town

[Menalque]

like remember how in micc's micro i spent forever on tw despite everyone trying to talk me out of it and then i got burned because i listened to like nebulous mechanics arguments? that's literally how i feel rn
(incidentally remember how i had a *strong* townread on lilith within like moments of her taking over your slot ???)

Y-es but also that game was just a clusterfcuk generally (and if we’d just done things my way we would have saved like, hours and hours of peoples time for a result that at the least wouldn’t have been *worse* but I digress)

Also, surely that TR was helped by my making that slot p obvtown by the point that she arrived? And also there were no compelling mechanical reasons to TR the duck but there are for lili

[Menalque]

bird is starting to look more like his scum self
dave i never townread

What looks more like his scumself? To me he looks fine-ish, and I think it’s probably +town that he isn’t weaponising GIFs

Dave you have townpings on from his EoD1 tho?

[Menalque]

I’m mildly concerned that you’re still TRing S_S at this point too

[Menalque]

i think it's as simple as she thought she could get the miselim on you
i dont' get why town!lilith just backs down there either ?

But like, was I that much of a threat that she needed to out to get me? And if I was, why back off after?

Not to mention, I was gaining steam as a wagon anyway, I’m not sure scum!lili feels she needs to try to push me mechanically there as opposed to just pushing me for X, Y, or Z reason about my play

[Menalque]

There were enough weak hop ons on my wagon that she wouldn’t have stood out that badly, and if town had figured it out a day later then the rest of the team could have just bussed her for cred

To believe lili is scum here means I have to believe she played a really, really awful and suboptimal D2, which is *possible* but I generally think lili is a good player and at least decent as scum, and I think there are far more games won by assuming she wouldn’t play in such a suboptimal way and clearing her from it, than games won by assuming she made bad choices for WIFOM and eliminating her

[Menalque]

what are the odds that scum!duck happens to claim a role that just so perfectly fits in with this setup?'
i don't remember the specific mechanical argument but it basically boiled down to the improbability of scum choosing to make some action over another or something, right? and since he picked the improbable one he must be town? or claimed soemthing improbable? i don't remember i have to look it up
or that he needed to be town for the setup to make sense or something.

but it was nebulous and we all went for it anyways ...

It wasn’t his actions tho I don’t think, it was what his fakeclaimed role *was*

It didn’t make sense alongside pooky’s (awfully, awfully made) bomb claim and bc pooky looked so much worse duck looked town

I could be slightly wrong here bc I didn’t follow that closely after I got banned but I don’t think it was his *actions* that falsely mechcleared him as it was bad setup spec, maybe S_S can help out on this tho, or lili herself?

[Menalque]

You know what would be incredibly funny, incidentally? Would be if S_S and lili are scum together again and we’re both town only we’ve reversed in terms of which one we think is scum from JK9++

[Menalque]

honestly i don't remember the details but i'm getting like miccro vibes about the gamestate because all the pieces aren't fitting together

I agree with that (things feeling ~off~) but I really think the only way to resolve that is massclaim and I think we’re way too early

[Menalque]

I’m mildly concerned that you’re still TRing S_S at this point too

he's probably my strongest townread

Why? This is very much in line with his scumgame and he’s been getting no pressure for bad reasons

ALSO this reminds me, do you think people are TRing you for good reasons?

[Menalque]

like it's a baffling thing to do, as both alignments. i don't get why it's so much more likely to come from baffling!town than baffling!scum because town!her has no reason to claim there either

But she totally does! If town!her thinks she’s blocked the killer and that I might wriggle my way out of dying by just, idk, power scumming I guess? Then it makes perfect sense for town lil to feel she needs to reveal that info to make sure I don’t get away

[Menalque]

Also I’m lowkey unsure that scum would take JK as their first draft pick but that’s getting into WIFOM territory

My priority there would always be denying town the cop

[Menalque]

I’m mildly concerned that you’re still TRing S_S at this point too

he's probably my strongest townread

Why? This is very much in line with his scumgame and he’s been getting no pressure for bad reasons

ALSO this reminds me, do you think people are TRing you for good reasons?

eh he's like more ~obstinate~ (?) than his scumgame i think
idk what the right word is but i don't think this is it

idk how to explain ti better

He’s also like, way way less interested in solving tho

[Menalque]

i dont' have any particular complaints about how people are reading me rn

Incl reads like infinity’s? That seems weird to me bc normally you call out when people are TRing you for bad reasons but I don’t think I’ve seen you do that here

[Menalque]

like it's a baffling thing to do, as both alignments. i don't get why it's so much more likely to come from baffling!town than baffling!scum because town!her has no reason to claim there either

But she totally does! If town!her thinks she’s blocked the killer and that I might wriggle my way out of dying by just, idk, power scumming I guess? Then it makes perfect sense for town lil to feel she needs to reveal that info to make sure I don’t get away

didn't you start wriggling out of it *after* she claimed? like when you get to l-1 (which happened after she claimed) that's when you started towning it up?

I think I’d already started along that route before I hit L-1, when I was at like L-3 or something is when I started upping the energy level

[Menalque]

VOTE: dunn

this is de facto G-1 with NM in the game, let’s get an intent on dunn

Wtf is G

Guillotine minus one

[Menalque]

By the TPR principle I'm explicitly against pressuring the top 5-6 draft picks early in the game, regardless of behavior.

*checks top 5-6 draft picks*

c o n v e n i e n t

[Menalque]

What role are you concerned dunn has that would be such a great loss here, Dave?

That’s also an awful lot of words to say “let’s do mena, Best Bird, or NM today”

[Menalque]

Like he could be cop, doctor, UB (so 1s PGO), or 1s watcher

[Menalque]

If he’s a cop then outing him gives us 2 innos, if he’s a doc then yeah be not ideal but basically any of the other roles are not so amazing that they’re likely to radically shift the balance of the game and none of them justify him playing like this

[Menalque]

we all like collectively have ignored the possibility of 1s commuter being the reason the kill went missing n1, i'm noting

i'm not super vibing dave!scum tbh but idk where to vote rn

I actually did note this but then uh forgot again

[Menalque]

Hey S_S how about whacking down an intent on dunn so we can keep things moving along

[Menalque]

If I did, it didn't get upgraded to long-term memory.

Go back and read her early posts from your game. She pushed the very same argument that scum intentionally avoiding collisions tends to put them higher up in the draft.

I can verify this, I checked her meta to see if she was being weird or not this game

[Menalque]

Also from a mechanical POV I agree more with hoopla’s “scum are more likely to be individual numbers” than I do with dave’s “leave the PRs alone until late game”

Like we only get 4 wrong executions anyway, I just wanna kill people who are scummy

[Menalque]

My priority there would always be denying town the cop

The problem with doing this is then you pretty much have to claim cop. And skitter can tell you how well that goes :3

yeah 2/10, would not recommend

Is this a throwback to venrobs or am I missing something?

[Menalque]

Talking about it at all helps scum. Nice job.

If you think scum haven’t already had/aren’t already having this conversation then you’re delusional

Please answer the question

What role could dunn have that would be so strong that it makes sense to just let him be indefinitely despite his play

[Menalque]

Tbf i still think skitt is scummy but she’s good enough that the emotionality thing is not a decent tell for her

[Menalque]

To be clear: skitter scummy, but not to the point where I want her elimmed today

I also like, want to clarify on this a bit: in terms of my interactions with her, she *feels* like town. A lot of the time, I’d just be straight TRing her here. The issue is that I know that when she focuses on me she can make me TR her for tone/feel when she’s scum, *even if I’m aware of that and looking out for it*. So despite my wish to TR her for her approach to me and for what feels a lot like genuine solving together I cant

That’s then coupled with what I think was a very dubious lilith focus which I think she’d have snapped out of earlier if town, a dubious SR on my slot on early D2 for reasons that I still don’t think make sense for town!her to SR me for, and... actually, that’s mostly it in terms of things I find actually scummy about her. The rest is more just us not seeing eye-to-eye on several things (infinity’s D1 for instance, dunn today, S_S today) but I think that’s mostly NAI bc we have those disagreements in some games when we’re both town too

[Menalque]

I don’t wanna do my dead bois dirty like that by not murderising dunn today

[Menalque]

Cool, dunn, it’s claim time buddy!