Open 798 | PYPX/Y+I/M | Game Over!

[Uncrowned]

this probably isn't the time to start a dunnstral wagon. i'm fine eliminating in {infinity, hoopla, dgb}, but we can't no-elim.

or can we (?) idk but isn't this game at evens or something and odds are better?

she’s always gonna be a liability

Lilith and Golden Paradox have fewer posts than the mod but OK

i

always

have fewer posts than the mod. it doesn't mean i haven't put a lot of content out. your play the last two pages has seemed very weird to me.

that being said, i don't buy dgb scum, and considering that i don't think she'd lie about being such a good townplayer, i'm not on board with eliminating her d1 under any circumstances. like come on, this is just a "eliminate the least charismatic player" (not an attack on you dgb, just that you have written off this game to an extent) and i don't buy this wagon at all. my vote will stay on infinity, and y'all should join me.

Oh there we go again with the "everything's fake" and not believing your lying eyes. You're gaslighting yourself.

Anyhoo it looks like I'm hammered.

I was town and choose PGO because I expected to be NK'd.

Adios amigos

VOTE: dgb

dgb, did you GET pgo?

VOTE: dgb

sorry. no one else above you in the draft took vig, you chose the vig slot, and then took PGO? don't believe it, sorry

VOTE: menal

These were all back to back in their ISO. This does not look natural at all.

i'm good with this elim today.

This also looks real bad, especially considering TGP's play has consisted of "Let's lynch Hoopla" who, as I said, hasn't been the focus of the game in terms of being pressured or wagon since I want to say roughly page 20-30.

The lack of willingness to engage with the wagons, only to jump on at the most opportunistic moment with no comments on either slot (DGB and now Mena) can't be ignored.

This doesn't seem like townplay to me. Even when TGP has been "against" the wagon, they've barely spoken about it and have only either voted someone else or voted on the wagon. There's no other interaction here. No information seeking or real attempts at reads outside of Hoopla

Also forgot to mention but assuming I'm right on this TGP thing, Daves is most likely town.

[Uncrowned]

Ok idk where it went but after the first four quotes I was meant to say "these are all back to back posts in TGPs ISO. What is the trajectory here?'

[Uncrowned]

I feel like the not wanting to vote out PRs thing is kinda NAI? its LAMISTy and can come from either alignment imo

Their casing on Hoopla does look decent but I do have an issue with it - it's mainly based around game theory and the draft. They've done nothing to progress that read since making it based on Hoopla's play outside of the whole 4s thing that was all talked about during the beginning of the game. I feel like she's posted enough to where, if you were STILL scumreading her (which I assume TGP does considering they voted her now on D2?) you'd think there'd be more substance to it by now.

[Uncrowned]

Speaking of it's kind of similar to JV's stance on you I suppose, in terms of how they've stayed consistent with you being a SR without much elaboration outside of the initial reasoning, which I believe Lilith brought up not too long ago.

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The above two are @Peta btw i should've clarified

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PP, myself and Skitter atm I believe?

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Are you just sheeping or did you come to your own conclusion on the slot? You've seemed 50/50 on TGP for most of the game

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Friendly reminder to please not lolhammer mena he is still L1 I think

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What motivation does Lilith have to lie there?

If Mena flips green do we not just end up suspecting her?

As I'm typing this I realize it's not that simple but it's a risky play nonetheless

[Uncrowned]

And what do you mean about it not synthesizing?

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S_S I'd appreciate your thoughts on my TGP read

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Why Peta?

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Idk if she'd try to get Mena out that way though? It seems a bit roundabout instead of just going for a NK? Especially if we're thinking doc wouldn't protect Mena tonight

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That third point you made is pretty much what I was thinking mena. I'll need to reread his ISO, but I feel like TGP has been the only slot Peta has been a bit more "vague" on in comparison to other slots? Vague might not be the right word. Indecisive?

[Uncrowned]

The 3rd point about Peta I mean lol

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Why do I feel like TGP should be resisting *me* specifically a bit harder? I feel like if they were town here they'd think it's a bit off that I'm pushing this? That's been my experience when I've pushed on townies in the past

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But here TGP seems pretty content to not go all that hard against me?

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Well yeah but Skitter is also widely townread and that didn't stop you from questioning her? That to me is more townie behavior

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@TGP

Here is what you've mainly said about Hoopla:

503 & 637

You said earlier that your reason for going after Hoopla wasn't only for being a part of the 4s... but if you look here, that's almost the entire crux of your argument. The only other thing you say? She seems opportunistic and like she's wagon-hopping, which is something you yourself have been doing.

I feel like your case on her has been weak, and I think the same thing can be said for Infinity.

Posts about Infinity by you:

710 1111 1296 1349 2065

You see why this read also doesn't look all that great, right? You start by townleaning him, which you then throw aside once Mena cases him. Here's where it gets weird though: D2, you're on board for getting rid of Mena and you think he's scum off of "strong mechanical reasons" (which you stated yourself) which logically would suggest his Infinity read is manufactured, right?

But you flip from this yet again once Mena provides some resistance to his own lynch, and you're immediately right back on Infinity. To me, this could be representative of two things: A townie who is seeing things from new perspectives as they are presented with new information/reads... or a scum who is seeing where they can fit onto a mislynch.

Why do I think it's the latter here?

Because your Infinity read boils mostly down to "his posts are terrible" with no further elaboration or actually reasoning behind WHY they would come from scum. The only effort you've put into casing someone was Hoopla and even that relied primarily on draft discussion and not actual content being provided in the game, outside of opportunism which you yourself have also done.

[Uncrowned]

Infinity... is your only scumlean/read JV?

[Uncrowned]

And Infinity fishing to go wherever else all day is a bad look

Who is he trying to get away from voting? Because he voted Mena earlier in the day, and he's saying TGP is more likely than not town?

[Uncrowned]

You saw my readslist

Yeah...? You only have JV in scummy. The only other person close to that is Lilith who is "scummy" by play but mechanically town?

And Dunnstral who is null?

[Uncrowned]

TGP if you're suggesting you're uninformed, than how would you say that Infinity IS informed on player alignment?

[Uncrowned]

Infinity, are you a player that likes to focus on only one slot at a time?

[Uncrowned]

What do you think about Dunn's perspective of you?

[Uncrowned]

the problem is like
you're so good of a scumplayer i don't trust my own reads over the strong mechanical evidence that you're scum

@tgp where does this impression of him come from ????

i don't understand how voting infinity is opportunistic on my part when i could have voted dgb easily then (which i did, but after the unexpected and scummy claim)

mena made an extremely strong point - infinity up till that point had been a basic, default townread that had barely been called into question when his posts had genuinely been scummy
infinity seems to me like they're informed. at no point to me have they felt actually genuine; slightly above null for a point, but i never really townread infinity.

i genuinely do not know how to explain how infinity's posting pings me but it does

do i really look like scum seeing where they can fit onto a mislim?

dgb was essentially a guaranteed lim, and if i were scum i would just hard defend her instead of being on that lim

i've explained my mena progression several times

This is such a weird thing to say when the 4 votes that lead to DGB's lynching all came within a relatively short span of time, and the hammer was her own self-vote? I don't get how it was "guaranteed" especially when you didn't want to entertain the idea of a Dunn wagon?

Like if a DGB elimination was such a guarantee in your mind, why would it matter if some of us began to vote over toward Dunn? From your perspective, wouldn't we have ended up going with DGB anyway?

[Uncrowned]

My solve right now is looking like TGP/Dunn/Peta but I don't know why that team would target Mena for the NK, assuming we didn't get a doctor save off N1.

[Uncrowned]

tgp

lmao I just went to check your ISO and got royally rolled

[Uncrowned]

FWIW I do think there's a slightly higher chance we did get a save off via Doc than Mena getting saved by JK.

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I am also still here if I was being references

I agree with best bird boi on the stance taking thing although apparently that makes me an "illogical"

[Uncrowned]

2143 -- is thinking that kind of thing comes from scum reasonable?

I think so, but I personally would've waited to see if you kept shading that slot without voting before I would've outright called it scummy, because that is 100% scum behaviour.

[Uncrowned]

Like I do think best bird called it a bit prematurely but the thought process is definitely right

[Uncrowned]

And I'd rather execute the most scummy player in the lobby than worry about draft order.

This whole thing is getting a bit tedious if you ask me. We've got half the people saying they don't want to execute people high in the draft, and then we've got others saying let's not eliminate in the doubled up numbers. Ruling this many slots out for elimination based off of what is essentially theory seems far less optimal than just going by play, in which TGP has been the worst of D2 and had an extremely scummy end of D1 as well.

[Uncrowned]

And you know who didn't want a Dunn wagon to start last night when Best Bird and I were voting him?

TGP.

[Uncrowned]

How did you come to the conclusion that all the 4s have three people they can't be in a team with, and why are you so certain that the single number players have more possibilities?

Or is this based off the assumption that there's a maximum of one scum in the 4s?

[Uncrowned]

How did you come to the conclusion that all the 4s have three people they can't be in a team with, and why are you so certain that the single number players have more possibilities?

Or is this based off the assumption that there's a maximum of one scum in the 4s?

i came to that conclusion based on the 15 times this setup has been run, no scumteam has doubled up their numbers. the cost of giving up PR's isn't really worth the WIFOM.

Okay, that makes sense.

[Uncrowned]

Infinity can you explain your TGP TR?

I think JV is the second most likely to be scum in the 4s from a scumhunting perspective (or lack thereof) as they haven't really made many moves outside of the consistent Peta read.

However, I think JV tonally wise has been good and there's been moments where I've read their posts and been like "holy shit this is exactly how I remember town!JV playing"

[Uncrowned]

Eh, I just don't really see it compared to the case I've established. I'd urge you to reconsider but Dunn isn't a bad alternative as of right now.

[Uncrowned]

This isn't the case for everyone, but I believe generally that emotion/tone are easier for scum to fake than having good progressions and votes that appear natural.

TGP's progressions aren't great and their is a pattern already appearing where they avoid interacting with wagons, only to jump on them without making points about said wagons prior.

[Uncrowned]

To be clear though, I do think that tone and emotion have a place and are important in terms of figuring out alignment. That's even what I've been using to justify not having JV as scum. However, I think the difference between the two slots is that TGP has exhibited more things that are likely to come from scum than JV has.

[Uncrowned]

In a vacuum I think it's more likely to come from scum and I think that even if it's coming from a town, it can be negative to the overall town play since we're not able to analyze voting, which can be a key component to sorting.

When I think of social deduction games I've played both online and in person, people who sit on the fence, go under the radar, or make attempts to be unpolarizing are the ones who are likely to be scum. People who don't vote or participate in wagons can fall under this category.

If it's a general playstyle thing that someone often exhibits than it's NAI.

[Uncrowned]

That's not why I'm scumreading him though? I'm scumreading him for how he's interacted with wagons.

Thinking that EVERY scum sits on the fence or tries to go under the radar would end up with town losing a lot of games. A game I remember vividly involving Flavor Leaf had him being the most aggressive player in the lobby, with the most "hot takes" and polarizing actions... and he was scum. It's not a one size fits all type of thing.

[Uncrowned]

Sorry, I meant they not him.

[Uncrowned]

Honestly the fact you think my SR on TGP is because I think he's going "under the radar" is concerning. It makes me think you're either not reading my case properly or that you're conf!bias to the belief of Town!TGP.

[Uncrowned]

Oh, okay. My mistake.

I won't keep beating this argument in to avoid cluttering the game.

Unrelated but kind of related: Do you have any recent scum games I could look over?

[Uncrowned]

Also I hope I wasn't coming off as condescending or anything during this back and forth lol if so my apologies

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@TGP

FL was just an example of someone I've seen play that way. I didn't even know they had that reputation. Also, the idea that you're playing anything like that is false. You're not being aggressive.

Just because I've said some general things I find scummy and you're not doing ALL of them doesn't mean I'm going to think you're town? What kind of defense is that? There's a bunch of other stuff you're doing that I find scummy that you ARE doing and your defense is "I'm LHF" and that your votes didn't matter?

If you're town, your votes matter plenty and the fact you think otherwise isn't good. DGB self hammered. If you don't vote, it's left at L-2. That's two other people that need to interact with that wagon that we get more information from.

[Uncrowned]

Hoopla based on play alone, who do you believe is more likely to be scum between TGP and Dunn?

[Uncrowned]

So how long before you're comfortable eliminating in the 4s?

[Uncrowned]

The way I currently see it is

Preferred Elim: TGP or Dunn

People we could consider elimming: Mena, JV.

Everyone else I don't think is a good elim for today tbh

[Uncrowned]

I also have reservations about townleaning Dave too much and would like a bit more engagement from Lilith, although I guess from her perspective it makes sense not to be too interested in today's happenings

[Uncrowned]

And yes, the whole lack of movement on the Hoopla scumread with minimal change based on her actual play is a big reason this reeks of scum to me.

[Uncrowned]

S_S do you have thoughts on anything at the moment or have you been busy or something?

[Uncrowned]

I ask because I feel like you've had some good insights on stuff throughout the game and your lack of them here seems... odd?

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Is "or something" possibly cooking up dastardly scum plans to kill us all?!

[Uncrowned]

But why doesn't the TGP vote make sense?

[Uncrowned]

Question: How many people are actually scumreading TGP outside of myself and Best?

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Okay, cool.

Thought people were tiptoeing around this a bit too much but that's fine.

Dave I saw those but you also seemed a bit unwilling to vote before hence why I asked.

[Uncrowned]

I did say seemed for a reason

[Uncrowned]

It feels like we're not going to get much more out of this day, looks like we've stagnated.

I'm confident with this wagon. I'm inclined to believe there's no scum on it. Obviously I'm biased to my own reads but I am happy with a hammer here. This feels 100x better than what happened with DGB

[Uncrowned]

TGP what is your current solve then? Infinity/Hoopla/JV?

[Uncrowned]

JV why haven't you talked about TGP at all?

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also interesting is that Dunn comments on Dave sidelining but not on JV? hmm

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If this is green Dunn has to go

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actually scratch that either way I think Dunn is scum here