revO emaG - TENET

[Something_Smart]

I don't think our roles particularly imply doc, because it's so easy for us to avoid ending up in the same thread.

[Something_Smart]

Yes we are, and yes I can try, but Titus and I don't really have a history of seeing eye to eye so I can't promise anything.

pedit: thanks I will take a look when I get a chance

[Something_Smart]

Oh yes, I shouldn't say "thread." Same timestream. The timestreams remain separate even after the merge.

[Something_Smart]

So, a game, then.

[Something_Smart]

just wanna make sure this isn't missed

I'm sorry. Combination of thread moving fast and me doing something else and tabbing out when I get a chance leads me to miss stuff.

I think as phrased the answer is clearly yes, people SHOULD be townreading me because I'm town, but I don't think that's what you meant. If you meant, do I expect people to be townreading me, the answer is no for the people who are unfamiliar with me and unsure for the ones who are.

[Something_Smart]

Why put the lovers condition in, as a mod, when neighbors start already in opposite time streams; which is already "optimal neighbor placement"?

Because he wanted to add in more effects that have to do with inversion to make it more likely to be relevant?

And if you do... why TELL them about it?

It would be incredibly rude bordering on bastard to not.

[Something_Smart]

also SS i don't think im risking anyting by defending u. nor do i think im hard defending u.

I think what you're risking as scum is losing the ability to mis-exe me.

[Something_Smart]

This makes zero fucking sense then, if you're told of this property of your role PM you will literally never choose to do this.

Yes.

I would think it's meant to be negative utility (either for both of us if we're both town, or for the scum one if one of us is scum).

[Something_Smart]

The negative is, if we wanted to invert for whatever reason (or if other people wanted to invert us), we wouldn't be able to.

I admit that it's a pretty weird role and that it probably makes more sense as T/S than I originally gave it credit for. But I still think Titus is being pretty towny, especially now that we've started talking in the hood again.

[Something_Smart]

but i kinda don't get why your snap reaction to scumreads/votes on you is, like, the way you've been playing? if you don't necessarily think people should be townreading you anyways why are you taking such issue with the fact that people aren't

Well for one, there's a difference between not townreading and scumreading.

And for two, I don't see what's unexpected about my reactions-- people are scumreading me, so I'm trying to figure out what I need to do to change that.

[Something_Smart]

S_S you should know that there's a neighborizer that neighborized me that I townread more than both of you two combined and this is directly influencing me.

What does that affect? It's entirely possible to have a town neighborizer and a T/T hood in a 26-player game.

[Something_Smart]

I voted you because I felt like you voted me despite not really wanting to kill me because you didn't see a downside, which seemed objectionable. So I provided the downside.

I voted LLD because she seemed like she wanted to 1v1 me, or at least was being actively unhelpful in dispelling that illusion.

[Something_Smart]

will the people who want to brush brian/titus off as tvt admit they just aren't engaging with the text at all

I want to brush Brian and Titus off as TvT and I'm not engaging with the text, yes, but I feel like you weren't talking to me.

[Something_Smart]

Because it's weak and stale, and it's partially based on taking what you and LLD have said on them into account. I doubt that I would be able to contribute much to a discussion about them, doubly so if it were with LLD.

[Something_Smart]

Is this mask of admitting to not reading the thread?

It's certainly admitting to not remembering everything that has gone on. Why?

[Something_Smart]

Is this mask of admitting to not reading the thread?

It's certainly admitting to not remembering everything that has gone on. Why?

Cabd has Deacon as town, no? What were you trying to get at?

[Something_Smart]

he's acting like it's unreasonable that people are scumreading him while admitting that he doesn't really think that people should be townreading him

There is a middle ground between townreading and scumreading!

[Something_Smart]

Aren't you talking about different games?

[Something_Smart]

oic. Skitter didn't really say anything about it other than this looks like it which is vague. I don't think I was scumread that game for my reads.

[Something_Smart]

UNVOTE: Something_Smart

Why?

[Something_Smart]

so do you think that everyone should be null on you?

No.

I think that everyone should be townreading me, because "should" refers to the best course of action, not the most likely one, and I am town.

I expect some people who don't know me well to not townread me. It doesn't mean I have to like it and it doesn't mean I can't try to change it.

[Something_Smart]

Why me fry me

How many examples of me asking that question as town would it take to change your mind here?

[Something_Smart]

For my part, I think you're a big ball of blah which doesn't seem okay for the fact you have over 200 posts, and also doesn't feel right given my meta knowledge of you, multiple times I have been told and shown you have a tendency to obvtown when you are town.

Meh that meta's a bit stale. I don't think I've been obvtown in a while.

Why do you have no solid SRs at this stage of the game?

Because I'm very bad at identifying scum without mechanical info.

[Something_Smart]

only if it also never happened as scum

I don't mean to say that you should see it as towny, just that you should not see it as scummy.

[Something_Smart]

Uhhh can anyone else who was in that back me up here? I wasn't obvtown in Antechamber right?

[Something_Smart]

Do you have opinions about all the claims currently on the table?

I initially thought Titus was town via role but the more I think about it the less I believe in that. I still think she's town on play, though.
I think Bell is town due to roleclaim (and a bad execution aside from that).
I think GFITAC is a bad execution due to roleclaim, and mildly towny as well.
I think skitter is towny, independent of her claim, which is null.
I think Brian is towny, partially because of his claim, which leans town because why do you give scum a role that's probably in their best interest not to use. Titus heavily disagrees with me here.

[Something_Smart]

Forgot to mention: I think the mystery neighborizer is > rand town.

[Something_Smart]

What would you expect of the forwards/inverse distribution?

Probably roughly even, but I wouldn't bet on that.

[Something_Smart]

I generally don't talk about mechanics that don't matter, which most of the time is most of them. Right now, what matters is the doc/strongman question, which I've commented on multiple times and nobody has responded to.

[Something_Smart]

Also, there's no point in crumbing even-night doctor in case you have to cover your ass in explaining why the IC died when the fact that the scum shot the IC N1 already makes it obvious they have a strongman.

Why do you think scum shoot at the IC N1 with no strongman? They're just crossing their fingers that there's no protective?

Ah ok. I confirm that Titus & I are neighbors who become lovers if we are in the same timestream. I don't agree with her that this implies doc. I think the IC NK implies strongman, which implies doc.

I think she's probably town from setup spec; it doesn't make an awful lot of sense for this role to be T/S.

[Something_Smart]

bonus, way before the doctor claim:

I mean, surely that was a strongman shot.

[Something_Smart]

Ss it also occured to me after pyp that you have a penchant for unorthodox nks ....

Not really? I have a penchant for gambits, but that's not the same thing.

[Something_Smart]

Yo Brian, did you ever explain why you activated the second turnstile when you did? Why not do it at the start of the day?

[Something_Smart]

dunn is easily one of the towniest people in your thread

Wouldn't that mean he's scum :thonk:

[Something_Smart]

Why would I do it at the start of the game?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you activated it before claiming, right?

I would expect that the two ways to play the role would be to (a) use it immediately so the town can play around its existence or (b) hold on to it and try to use it when it will actually be useful. But if you were doing (b), there seems to be little downside to claiming first and asking if people think you should use it immediately (if you judge that it might be useful, as you evidently did).

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: skitter

That doesn't need to be there anymore

[Something_Smart]

Ss why the unvote?

Because you unvoted me (and your vote was the reason for my vote).

You being towny on this page was what reminded me.

[Something_Smart]

This would put us on odds, but meh, I don't think S_S is gonna exactly walk along.

Why wouldn't I?

[Something_Smart]

Well, if I'm scum, I guess.

[Something_Smart]

I guess the only reason I wouldn't is if I believe in my ability to save myself, and not just for a few days, but permanently.

I guess the question needs to go out to the people who have experience with me: do you think that, assuming I am town, you might realistically be able to get enough good towntells on me in the next few days that you would feel comfortable trusting me all the way to endgame?

After PYP I can't imagine skitter's answer being yes. I really can't imagine a yes from many people, honestly. Probably Firebringer. Maybe Pooky.

[Something_Smart]

Given your thoughts of the likelihood, what do you want to do?

I mean I want to see what people say rather than jumping to conclusions. But it seems like it's probably better to just turnstile me-- it's basically a free vig shot.

[Something_Smart]

my response to "will you be able to townread me later" is "are you going to start playing differently"

Ask Cabd then. I was asking only people who knew me because I didn't expect helpful answers from the ones who didn't.

[Something_Smart]

How did I just realize that Dunn replaced unwnd. lmao

[Something_Smart]

Yeah okay I agree that Titus is flipping town.

[Something_Smart]

I think this is the right move.

UNVOTE: Turnstile Something_Smart

Not because I want to be turnstiled per se-- I'm pretty much right on the fence at the moment-- but because the ball isn't in my court. Getting a free kill on an eventual mis-exe is amazing, so you should take this if you think I'm going to have to be killed at some point.

A few notes about my play, to help people make this decision:
- I suck at mafia and I know I suck at mafia. Sorry. Confident scumreads probably ain't happening anytime soon.
- I should have more free time over the coming weeks than I've had this past one, but no promises.
- I probably won't keep up with the other thread. I spend a good chunk of my time on mobile and cross-quoting is a massive PITA.
- I... honestly don't know what has led people to get solid townreads on me in the past. It's very game dependent. I definitely become more readable over time; in almost all my best scumgames (including the recent PYP that skitter and I keep referencing) I have started off strong and then eventually screwed it up. So I ought to be MORE readable in the future, but it may not be enough.
- I'm very good with mechanics. I'm also very guilty of giving the mod too much credit with mechanical assumptions. I'm really unsure if my mechanical aptitude will be a blessing or a curse here.

[Something_Smart]

i think it's mechanically optimal but i probably don't think you're flipping scum atm

It's only mechanically optimal if people do think I'm scum and don't expect to change their minds. If you don't think I'm scum, try to sell that to the others.

[Something_Smart]

I would be surprised if there weren't some kind of vig, for one, and for two there exist other kill-stopping roles besides doctor (JK, bulletproof, commuter, hider) who may not have CC'd Bell. I'd like to believe that Cakez gave us enough ways to get on odds that one would likely trigger-- especially with what's probably a strongman, making the doctor less likely to do that.

And it's not exactly like a dance game; what you said is why I voted first. I'm not going to be camping the thread with my finger on the vote button. I've already claimed, you know my reads, you can (and should) blitz the hammer on me without giving me time to react if you decide that's the right course.

I you think I take that risk as scum... well, I'd certainly consider it. But we've already established that my deepwolf potential is essentially nil. I would be saving my neck now only to get myself killed a few days down the line, and risking giving town a free execution in the process.

[Something_Smart]

Fire feels way different from JK9++ to me... do you disagree?

[Something_Smart]

in what way do you think he's been different

It's kinda hard to explain, but I feel like he's trying to contribute to solving instead of just throwing down reads.

It might just be that I've known his alignment the last few times I've played with scum-him, but I don't think he was ever this helpful or sincere as scum.

[Something_Smart]

Trying to distract from a scumread player by wagoning a townread player sounds like nonsense to me.

[Something_Smart]

Spoiler:

now i am curious, SS why do u trust my nora read?

Here’s the thing, scum already can be in a game with 4 scum based on throes draft lists, so if scum can get one of their 2 over, that game can hard be manipulated by scum, and the other game can have 1 scum sitting pretty like a lone wolf, which creates hard associations.

That would be the idea for me if I were scum, get sent over. Even if it’s 3-3 now, getting sent over creates that 4-2.

i dont think this is how scum are thinking tbh

@LLD, Just who do you think is conned? No one has really explicitly agreed or disagreed with you. Also, I'm literally not reading two more games after slogging through 100 pages and needing to finish about 50 more give or take.

You mention about turning the screws to people. That's the same behavior I am describing. You don't forget the details when legitimately applying the screws. Since when does anyone buy a semantic argument? It's eyerolled and ignored unless scum support it. You also immediately backed off upon "finding out" Superbowl wasn't new. That doesn't make sense if you legitimately believed you caught scum with your argument. You didn't feel that way at all.

Then there's also Superbowl's lack of followthrough on his theory.

Then there's skitter's random declaration of you not being S V S.

You immediately come in here with an angry AtE discredit, which is your go to move to get townread.

pretty sure that is LLD go to move regardless....

so LLD saw superbowl making some post about being new and LLD thinks "ohh this teammate is useless" and decides to buss heavy or something. Is that what im supposed to take from this.

Scum SS feels more urge to make fake reads and pushes where it seems SS here doesn't care that his reads are lackluster and he has nothing to push. Pretty different if u ask me. Worthy of my townread.

Hopefully his future scum games will not copy this.

S_S is mine or skitter recollection of events more accurate

Examples of Fire posts that give town vibes, I'm sure there are others.

[Something_Smart]

2 of what 3?

[Something_Smart]

This is me not unvoting the turnstile.

[Something_Smart]

If we're not turnstyling SS I want to lim SS over Pisskop.

Why would anyone vote to execute me but not to turnstile me?