Newbie 2051: Iceland! - End!

[Prism]

If I misvote, fundamentally that's on me, but if you don't want to play to win, that's on you. There are ways to prevent your team from making errors and refusing to take them is not conducive to winning games.

P-Edit: No clue what you're even doing, you just said specifically said scumreading Spartan/quiet was why you switched.

[Prism]

I SR spartan & Quiet so I switched

I'm not even voting Quiet because I suspect them

[Prism]

I've typed out 3 different posts voting flow trap but I don't think there's any traction on that and this deadline is already enough of a votesplitting shitshow

[Prism]

Spartan is more likely to go through than quiet. How is this defensive, exactly? Do you not want to be on the elim vote?

[Prism]

My point is you need to fight for your votes. It doesn't matter if you're right if you lose the game.

[Prism]

Part of what makes this so implausible w/ floo is that we have similar backgrounds in chat mafia. The amount of indignant/self-righteous town in chat games is insane and is a huge part of what can make it insufferable to play, it can quickly degrade to ego "I was obviously town you're trash for voting me" slapfights. Mafia quickly learn to do the same. You literally have to play around town doing exactly what Salsabil was doing and worse every other game.

[Prism]

Aight, I'm at my limit, I'm taking a walk, I'm giving reads, and then I'm voting. I've made my point to/from flow trap, I can either deal with him tomorrow or someone else can pick up where I left off.

[Prism]

While I'm gone think through who you want to vote/don't want me to vote and I'll work through it with you in a bit.

[Prism]

That's to quiet/fairy but also applies to Spartan and Frederick if he shows up.

[Prism]

but isn't scumplay in chat mafia very reflexive, emotion driven because of the lack of time required to make good arguments? i can see Salsabil's reaction would look even more scummy in that context.

It depends on the level of play. Higher level players definitely get better at faking the tone/indignance. Lower level players typically just AFK and vote anyone that isn't them.

You definitely see mafia act indignant/upset, but the amount of town selfrighteousness you see makes it virtually impossible to read into. In a case where those emotions are immediately validated by a replace out I just don't think floo ever takes this approach as town.

With that said, I think the vote today for me is floo. I'm not a town dictator, but I do believe in this read and it's delusional to think that voting someone else makes a statement about the value of teamwork. I'm fallible and fully capable of being wrong. I do think when I'm confident these reads have a high hit %, but I have been wrong before and will be again one day, even if it turns out to not be today.

I think the correct approach is again affirming that I heavily prefer floo for the day. I am again fallible, and this is a Newbie game: I am willing to talk to you about this read as long as it takes, but you should trust your own judgment over just following me.

So floo is my vote for the day. I think this has the advantage of hedging for me being wrong on either of fairy/quiet; both have verbally expressed a willingness to vote floo but not really done so. If you want a second guess, it would be Frederick. But I'm really only confident in floo, and anything else is murky.

[Prism]

In the event floo is scum, I think anyone is on the table but flow trap is probably the most likely. I still think quiet/fairyprincess are town but it is conceivable for that one, especially quiet, is playing very much around deceiving my slot specifically as scum. Spartan would be extremely bold to go to bat this hard. I intentionally tried to get a vote on Spartan from floo earlier to see if he'd be willing to vote Spartan and he ignored it entirely rather than taking the chance to distance more. flow trap's only real wall today has been a direct response to me about floo, but it was a townlean and not quite a hard defense. This doesn't mean instavote flow trap but he has to learn to make a better case if he's town.

If floo is town, I literally have no clue and think all my reads should go straight in the trash. No one really feels right in this world, Spartan whiteknighting two town slots in a row is suspect but this is a bit unfair. Chance of me getting wrecked by one of fairy/quiet is high, and flow trap/Frederick were definitely in no danger until now and could just coast all day.

[Prism]

So that's where I'm at. I'm still down to talk about any slots with people, and I will of course vote someone else if required to avoid a no elim.

[Prism]

flow trap's only real wall today has been a direct response to me about floo, but it was a townlean and not quite a hard defense. This doesn't mean instavote flow trap but he has to learn to make a better case if he's town.

You got me to chew more on my floo read but overall I found the argument for floo-town really lacking and the conclusion lackluster. I responded to the wall in 1365. It's also taken a ton of work to get you to really go to bat for something else; you've sat to the side all day and waited for others to drive an elim.

[Prism]

but isn't scumplay in chat mafia very reflexive, emotion driven because of the lack of time required to make good arguments? i can see Salsabil's reaction would look even more scummy in that context.

It depends on the level of play. Higher level players definitely get better at faking the tone/indignance. Lower level players typically just AFK and vote anyone that isn't them.

You definitely see mafia act indignant/upset, but the amount of town selfrighteousness you see makes it virtually impossible to read into. In a case where those emotions are immediately validated by a replace out I just don't think floo ever takes this approach as town.

I know this isn't quite what you were getting at by the way fairy, I know you're saying in theory that mafia should fall back to reflexive fake emotions more, ie. this should be scumplay, but selfrighteous, indignant town are so commonplace that it is difficult for me to put it under the "scumplay" category at all, which is why I think displaying those emotions and playing suboptimally is pretty NAI. When you have those emotions validated by a replaceout, I think this shifts to "townlean".

[Prism]

I share your concerns about Frederick in general, and obviously I'm not a fan of flow trap's day today, but part of why I want to vote floo in the end is simply because I think it's a safe bet (222, hue).

I've obviously gotten very worked up and a bit neurotic. I spent a lot of my walk trying to rein that in and recenter. This game is not about me vs. fferyllt, the game is about voting scum and ideally doing it together. I hope I am right on floo, naturally. I think there are good reasons to think you and fairy are both town but a large part of me simply

wants it to be true

, and I'd rather force both of you to take a stand you believe in rather than pass the buck at deadline and let chaos rein. This is probably better for us in the shortterm as town, and is definitely better for us in the longrun if I am wrong and either of you are mafia, particularly with floo. I have a long history of being a town dictator, but I also have a long history of nailing one and letting the other escape me.

[Prism]

which site did u play chat mafia on btw?

EpicMafia. I play-or rather, played-under the username [redacted per request]

~f

.

[Prism]

re: 1542 Do you really think I don't just take literally any of the 3 freebies on the table and push floo when one flips town? I'm taking direct responsibility if floo flips town and have all day.

I concur that Frederick isn't great, and will vote there if I have to. But Frederick is the absence of a townread colored by the inactivity of a scum. floo I think is straight up working backwards and has been strategic in picking exactly what he has/hasn't engaged with all day.

[Prism]

Eh Prism, I've been legitimately considering floo all day. I don't feel like you've been running this town, I just think you ARE town. I'm sure this feeds into the "quiet is trying to flatter prism" narrative, but I think we have enough opinionated voices in here that we're not sheeping or getting pushed around by you. You're all good.

I really appreciate this. I do think you're town, and I'm enjoying playing with you.

[Prism]

I don't think it's an accident that you've separated quiet and fairyprincess into categories based off helpfulness here, while I don't get the same treatment beyond "effort" and refusal to engage directly with me throughout the game. Several of fairy's posts have been some of the most detailed/insightful in the game, ex. on Spartan. I don't find them surface level. That said, I don't like them immediately running opposite of whatever vote I suggest in the moment and he has contributed to the deadline chaos.

There are some valid criticisms of me in there. I think some of them were right and will take it to heart, and I'm sorry if my vote is wrong.

[Prism]

Doesn't look like we're getting floo today. Floo definitely busses here if he has to; there really isn't another choice.

Take seriously my case on floo but as always, trust your own judgment and work together. That means you, flow trap.

It's E-1, I will 100% be here to vote if someone else doesn't before deadline.

[Prism]

I think he's definitely a liability in Elo if he's town but I'm fine taking a shot that gives a lot more information and that I feel better about today.

flow trap v. Frederick is a much harder call. My instinct is that Frederick is worse overall, even though I really, really hate how flow trap has played the last ~48 hours.

[Prism]

Rereading Frederick I think 1353/1354 are kind of town but I might as well be throwing darts. Dude also literally thought he wasn't in danger and didn't check in at all today.

Maybe 1354 has scumQuiet shaking in his boots.

[Prism]

(I was going to let Frederick/quiet talk it out but 1354 isn't a good point, quiet's using the assumption of Frederick town to make a point about Spartan, not assuming Frederick is town himself)

[Prism]

So, do we want to talk more about flow trap/Frederick/floo or do we just want to see the flip already? This seems pretty set and I'm ready to just see the result and call it a day.

P-Edit: Aight I'll hold off a bit longer.

From a scum trap perspective, I think flow trap's day 2 play was more being worried about a partner being flipped/not wanting to be on a miselim rather than thinking they were in danger themselves. I definitely concur we're in for a rough 5 way with flow trap around.

[Prism]

flow trap's game just dropped significantly for me since it's clear his whole playstyle never was utilised to find mafia

I feel bad that we're beating up on flow trap but you do have a point with this post (I'm sorry but what was the galaxy brain plan regarding voting Quiet and hoping I don't vote there? I hope he doesn't try this in Elo) and I would much rather have Frederick in 5 way than flow trap.

[Prism]

Eh between the two yeah I'd rather go flow trap. Frederick is the only person voting with me on floo. I don't like preflips but I really don't like what happens if he flips town here, I think flow trap flipping town is a lot more salvageable and probably more likely to flip scum considering today anyway.

[Prism]

I don't think we have the votes without Spartan/floo checking in actually nvm

Welp

[Prism]

Actually Spartan might still be up? And maybe we can convince quiet? Unclear

[Prism]

I still want floo first and please note that requires only 2 votes

[Prism]

I'm hammering at 11:45 EST, hypothetically we could still vote swap after then but someone falling asleep, someone being conveniently AFK scum, etc. makes coordinating not worth the risk imo

[Prism]

Ehhhh it's kind of weird to assume I'm wrong but Frederick is safer from a pairings angle. He can be scum with literally like half the player list, I don't think flow trap is scum with anyone but floo or *~maybe~* Frederick

Fuck it it's late and I want to see the flip.

[Prism]

Yeah, last call, fairy/quiet-Frederick over floo?

[Prism]

i support you and quiet being your own thinkers unconditionally

that said, why must we vote in the coinflips

why do u do this to me

[Prism]

Sanity vs. probably more likely to be scum.

I think we go the latter but what a day. What a day.

[Prism]

"probably more likely to be scum" I fuckin hate this LMAO

[Prism]

Sorry Fairy the vote is 3-1 let's roll with Frederick, I want to see the flip and ride silently into the night.

I don't think I get nightkilled but if I do it was a pleasure playing with you all, and flow trap please prove everyone wrong in 5 way, Elo or no, it matters a lot.

[Prism]

Wait I forgot that Fairy wasn't a Frederick vote, don't need their vote atm

VOTE: Frederick

Maybe see y'all tomorrow

[Prism]

Also, listen to Golden Hour, great album

[Prism]

me about to start f5ing knowing that this is ffery primetime

[Prism]

We might want to consider doctor outing today if one exists, I can look for what the standard play is in a bit.

That's uhhhhhhh a nightkill, floo doesn't think he can get the elim through maybe?

[Prism]

That is (probably) either the worst frame-job on me ever or an attempt to get human Prism to vote human Floo

I mean joke's on them I'm not instavoting.

I don't really know why scum would need a frame job though, only one vote on you needed to miselim.

Do you have any thoughts on the end of day yesterday/did your reads evolve at all overnight?

[Prism]

To be clear, my instinct is you/floo or floo/Spartan. The one read you gave with the defense was deeply questionable with the conclusion and you've preached being willing to go with others to pacify me only to immediately revert back to galaxy brain.

Like you gave some line about playing defensively when I asked about it but this still makes absolutely no sense to me:

I SR spartan & Quiet so I switched

I'm not even voting Quiet because I suspect them

[Prism]

That kill actually makes a lot of sense for Spartan/quiet, particularly the latter? Spartan voting quiet knowing it was going nowhere was also strange.

[Prism]

is quiet using my ego AGAINST ME

probably NOT

but I DO HAVE TO WORK THROUGH THAT

[Prism]

ahaha please make sense of the kill from my perspective as scum, cause I don't understand it whatsoever.

Before I explain why I think it

does

make sense from certain perspectives, why doesn't it make sense to you?

[Prism]

My overnight theory was that Prism, me, fairy are alive and I go full accusation mode vs. fairy trying to pocket the two of us into a win.

Not quite sure what you're saying here-Is this saying that, as town, you were going to push fairy but expect the other two players/me to be the actual scumteam playing you off of each other?

[Prism]

I think killing me is suicide for floo/flow trap. I'm going to skip my thoughts on doctor-NK interactions until we decide whether or not to hold off.

[Prism]

(I expected a quiet NK)

[Prism]

I mean I knew there was a chance I died, but floo shooting me would be deeply questionable as would shooting me if floo is town.

[Prism]

If Frederick was scum I was 100% the best shot, which is why I gave the last reads and testament, but the second Frederick flipped town I figured I was living.

[Prism]

Issue is basically that scum can fakeclaim doctor adaptively.

Doctor exists and doesn't claim. Scum claims doctor on getting voted. Two buckets to vote in.

Doctor doesn't exist. Scum exclusively claims it on getting voted, likely buys themselves an extra day in Elo.

The strength is in them not claiming it, or in us policyvoting an E-1 doctor claim: This gives us a chance at the doctor making it to three way, which is when the EV pays off.

[Prism]

Prism, in what world do I get shot? Spartian, flow think I'm scum, I don't know what floo thinks but I think it's neutral at best, and you're openly concerned about me and have been for ages. Most damning, though it was Spartian's strong SR in part that drove my decision of floo vs. fred or flow, I was still the first on the Fred miselim wagon.

"openly concerned about me" is true but willfully misses the point that I would likely shut down any potential push on you. Fairy also wanted flow trap and wasn't sold floo was town. Spartan wanted you EoD but that 1v1 is really the only thing to bet on with you alive.

I will hold off on doctor world speculation.

[Prism]

Doesn't it require 3 to elim today?

So any misvote is an instaloss from a quickhammer. Which means no town can vote on town, or the game is immediatly over; I'm 100% policyvoting any E-1 claim, because if they were inno, they'd already be dead.

or am I missing something critical there

You're right in that this should be E-2. Scum have to coordinate to blitz, meaning there's a window where TvT votes are still possible.

[Prism]

If you're worried about me making the NK you don't have to.

That kill is outright against my philosophy for playing the mafia alignment, which is explicitly shooting people that I think won't get voted. I'll try to dig up a few posts that confirm that if you want.

Still unclear to me why you (quiet) think the kill doesn't make sense. I get that you said you're thinking on it still but that's a strong claim.

[Prism]

Also, in a no doc world, it's better to no kill, but I can table that.

[Prism]

Actually since they can't do it anymore it's fine to just out it.

You no kill. 6 town alive. Four branching paths

Town wants doctor to claim+votes that day: 1/4 chance of partner being voted. Not predictable what your odds are of making it through, but pretty good.
Town wants doctor to claim, you don't vote that day: You nightkill the save and claim roleblocked.

Town doesn't want doctor to claim+votes that day: No info, 2/3 chance of town getting voted.
Town not voting w/o a claim isn't actually an option as scum can doctest by hunting w/ the roleblock

[Prism]

Scumsman PTs/Sakura Wars PTs never got released, shame.

I shoot almost entirely based off how likely they are to get voted. I allude to this here in a postgame Scumsman post, 4257 talks about how I was the one behind the Hectic shot where the entire reason was that he was a universal TR and never getting voted, even though his reads were pretty poor. Here's one from The Thaw, and a few from Market Blitz.

That said there are two scum in the game, so it's not bulletproof. If you're worried I masterminded that kill though that is......definitely not the case.

[Prism]

And quiet-you've spent all of this evaluating me/inviting others to reevaluate me. That's great and all, and I get that now is the time to reconsider, but what do you think of floo/Spartan/flow trap?

P-Edit: I mean, it's your wall, but at once is probably better.

[Prism]

I've got to go grab food but I'll work through it after.

[Prism]

If I release it allllll at once, it's going to take a long time

Let me put it this way: You don't want me wondering if you're being truthful of your claim to have wrote it overnight.

[Prism]

I totally agree that reevaluating me is the move, and it's completely rational to do as town. Like I don't want you to think I'm upset over that.

Simultaneously, I'm definitely more interested in other slots, and this makes twice players have openly fished for paranoia thoughts on me after Spartan did Day 2.

[Prism]

I'm inclined to townlean Spartan, nightkill makes sense from his POV but a floo/flow trap scumteam is up shit creek and basically the only play here is to hope paranoia on me carries the day or that one can beat Spartan in 3 way.

[Prism]

Like 7 pages of nonsense is exactly the kind of scum YOLO I expect from flow trap here but we'll judge it when we see it

[Prism]

@Spartan: Who's scum now that ya boi Frederick flipped town

[Prism]

Something that I think points strongly towards floo individually but leaves the partner more ambiguous is:

floo, you down to vote Spartan with me/Fairy?

This got no response despite floo being there the entire time. Later, after I have a mini neurotic breakdown, floo asks why I'm willing to vote a townlean over a SR but that's it

There is zero reason to dodge this question as town to begin with, scum he either doesn't want to protect the partner or doesn't want to clear Spartan if he gets flipped. I lean the latter, I think floo would feel a lot more pressured to create distance w/ a scum partner here.

[Prism]

if this dude literally has nothing and is frantically mashing keys like a last second english essay you type up at the lunch table i'm going to fucking die lmao

[Prism]

i don't think that's the case but the chaos god is back in force for sure

[Prism]

b r u h it is almost two hours later

[Prism]

Somewhere up in heaven, St. Peter has read the name "fairyprincess69" off the register and allowed the angel by that name through the gates. Taking stock off all that heaven has to offer, the angel immediately heads to the holy shit aisle of lore and grabs several handfuls, stuffing it into his magical angelic robe that never stains. Now he's looking down on me, watching, ready to fling the holy dung if I don't vote flow trap.

And as much as I hate to break it to him, I'm probably not today. Maybe tomorrow.

[Prism]

Night kill didn't change my reads much, quiet is definitely due for review but in the meantime I'm fine assuming my townread is right and engage/question in good faith. I did not like his end of day, refusal to vote floo despite apparently finding my case compelling, and to a lesser extent the positioning around me today. The slot is not going to get a pass from me for free, even if I'm not pouring over past pages at this immediate moment.

[Prism]

Spartan, what do you think of this post of mine earlier?

Does this just like, ring zero alarm bells for you?

[Prism]

ie. The fact that floo is obvscum in my opinion does not change because it is 5 way. I will absolutely review the quiet slot but that doesn't require me being at his throat immediately, it requires me to sit down and reread

[Prism]

Yes, I'm on my phone atm so it's hard for me to quote wall, but my view from Day 2 is unchanged and was strengthened by the Frederick flip. The fairyprincess slot isn't the worst shot given that I was defending it so hard, it had me locktown, and was iffy on both you and flow trap (No clue what they thought of quiet by EoD)

In contrast you're hard townreading floo, you/flow trap have me as a lukewarm townlean last I checked, and both of you are still alive

[Prism]

Half of my effort as scum this game would go towards protecting slots from eliminations, getting them to townread me, and shooting them instead of either letting them get voted or capitalize on the earned townreads.

The other half in this hypothetical would be pocketing quiet but like, there's three people that have locktowned me and only two nightkills

[Prism]

Actually that's a lie, half of my effort this game has been towards lecturing flow trap on the value of friendship and teamwork

[Prism]

The point of my "Half of my effort..." hypothetical is based off how much effort I've put into the fairy/esoteric slots. My point being, I went through all that effort to get a townread from them as scum only to immediately shoot them is ???

[Prism]

ie. The paragraph you quoted is saying "This was the shot, this is what it means if I did it and it's blatant nonsense"

[Prism]

I am extremely upset at something irl. I don't even want to look at this game anymore tonight, I am sorry. I will try to be back tomorrow.

flow trap, I am glad to see you posted the first part of the wall and look forward to engaging with you more on it when I get back.

[Prism]

While I'm thinking about it, Spartan, you're experienced enough to meta. Review my scumgames. Pull a towngame that isn't Mini Normal 2181 where I hated the table. Extremely stark difference.

It's Elo, you can spare the hour.

[Prism]

I thought that Day 2 was too much but actually tracking Spartan's progression here this is terrible.

Spartan, here's every explanation you've given for your floo townread.

floo

Floo's posts are few but tend to be emotive and full of thought, 124 pushing flow trap to get his read on safebet when he previously explained 2/3 of his reads is good to see very townie pushing for reads.
It's hard to find a lot about Floo but from what I have seen from reading everything through chronologically they seem to provide some straight forward towny input when they do contribute will keep an eye on this slot.

floo has actually been trying to solve the game and has natural reads rather than just town reading everyone like quiet)

Please don't vote floo, I really read him as town (I feel like you are trying to get away with a floo lynch without any of the responsibility of being the causing factor on a floolynch), in comparison to fredrick it shouldnt even be a question he has just lurked around prodged and contributed little to nothing,

floo has produced natural reads and is seriously my strongest town read.

Have mine and quiet's reads not "natural, straight forward towny input"? This is incredibly vague and hasn't changed at all since post 746.

You've constantly demanded to know why we're townreading various slots/going really far out of your way to discredit our reads at every turn but have failed to seriously evaluate this slot or explain this read in the slightest the entire game.

[Prism]

Like, if you're going to go to bat this hard for floo, you need to actually explain why this slot is town. You're not holding yourself to nearly the same standards as you are others.

[Prism]

I've got to run for ~2 hours, but flow trap's wall is *~fine~*. The analysis isn't bad, I concur with most of it (eg. I liked floo's start, I didn't like a lot of safebet's weird positioning-his "for reactions" vote literally lasted like 5 minutes and I think net a single post iirc) but I'm waiting for the conclusions.

Also my god I’m actually buying this from Flow Trap and I just

What was flow trap even selling in that wall to begin with/what were buying, and what did it have to do with me that the paranoia was the followup?

Unclear about your progression here, please be more specific with your concerns and why. It's okay to be emotive and give reactions but just going "Am I just pocketed on Prism???" repeatedly without doing a deeper explanation makes it feel performative.

[Prism]

Like I had Spartan/floo as unlikely for the hard defense+Spartan baiting a vote on me from floo but the latter a completely arbitrary scum interaction, or setting the stage for both to vote me later, over galaxy brain wagon fish might be the answer?

Either way, Spartan, high time for you to justify that read.

[Prism]

Worked my way through a lot of the quiet ISO+read a sample town game in 2045.

Quiet's reads/reasoning are almost off the cuff analysis, sometimes corrected a few minutes later, sometimes left. This matches the meta in 2045, and as a bonus 2045 has him struggling in a similar way with finding it easier to give townreads than scumreads. Questioning/slightly unconfident style definitely lines up. Doesn't mean he's town but it means yes, his town game looks like this.

This style is plausible to fake as town. The candidate partner here would be....floo, shocker. This is mostly because quiet spent most of yesterday claiming to find my point compelling only to keep dodging actually voting there. If floo is town I doubt quiet is scum in any world, and flow trap/Spartan seems unlikely given how frustrated Spartan has repeatedly gotten. A floo vote flipping town would be absolutely disastrous and is much better to get immediately than a Frederick vote. Quiet's given room to both Enchant and to the Salsabil slot at times where it was really more advantageous to just shut up and let it all happen.

My nerves are still a bit wracked and it's hard to seriously work through more atm but the strongest points I've seen outside of my own are that quiet has too many townreads.

Why are people scumreading this slot beyond that? Am I missing something here?

[Prism]

Next project is flow trap, after that will be revisiting floo.

[Prism]

Illwei: Towny town that has ever towned. I don't buy scumIllwei townSlip play. Nope, no, not buying it. If you got me, you got me.

BBmola: Town/selfsorting. I really enjoyed BB's play, even if it wasn't exactly.. conventional. It was for sure interesting and fun. Said a lot with very few words, lots of reaction tests, the weird claim, the fuck it voting style, the plan to discover peta's role, etc. I think that if not town, gets sorted p easy tmmrw.

Peta: Null/look for all their contact. Never got anything but engaged town vibes, but from background reading/the respect of other players in thread, I put this well within their scum range. Really enjoyed playing w/ them.

Reads from town quiet in 2045 that on the surface have some interesting parallels to this game.

[Prism]

Really wish I could get my answers from safebet but I feel like they don't matter that much, idk, especially when I never got to fully understand how safebet plays compared to the rest of the game

[Prism]

I'm around and catching up atm if anyone has something they want to talk about

[Prism]

For quiet, I don't really have too much to say about your paragraph to me. I appreciate it and yeah, continuing to sort me today would be a huge waste of time.

You say it was mostly fishing. This makes sense but you went pretty far out of your way to sell it w/ the multi posts which is...admirable? Or a post-facto explanation? Wack.

[Prism]

I have my own thoughts on the NK analysis but I'm going to wait to interject until I finish rereading flow trap.

[Prism]

Hot and cold definitely happens depending on the context you're talking about. I'm trying to be a town synergist, but this doesn't mean being nice all the time. This means figuring out what works to get the most out of each player.

In your case flow trap I've tried both good cop and bad cop to...mixed results. Yesterday with the deadline ticking I was a lot more pressing/threatening, both because you legitimately had a high chance of me voting you Day 3 (less now than I felt at the time) and because I was very desperate to get you to take a stance. I am sure that from your perspective, the last 48 hours of Day 2 were protown in some way, but to me it was strictly -town in the sense that it made it virtually impossible to sort you as town, and there were giant benefits to playing so passively as scum. I've legitimately gotten annoyed two/three times, sometimes moving on or sometimes being snappy to see if I could get something out of you with it.

I have no complaints about your play/content today.

[Prism]

Reading these flow trap posts in the 100s/200s and comparing them to now is amazing, this the type of stuff that inspired Matchbox Twenty to write "How Far We've Come"

[Prism]

This is really strange to say especially given how snappy I was Day 2 but like I am legitimately proud of you, the quality of your reads/posts and your willingness to dialogue on an even playing field has shot way up. Even if you're mafia I mean that, the walls are good work.

[Prism]

I mean typically the pairoffs mean there's 1-1 and floo literally AFKing for two days doesn't help, but I think the ball is really in Spartan's court to prove he's town atm given that he has not justified anything on floo.

[Prism]

I still die a bit inside reading about not being vulnerable to bias and not expecting you to be truthful as town but we can agree to disagree

[Prism]

I mean they do have 7 days

Is there a reason you're trying to alleviate the pressure I'm applying?

If you think it's a bad push, explain why. Saying this just gets in the way for 0 reason.

OK I forgot how much this tilted me off the face of the earth, this one was not me playing good cop/bad cop

[Prism]

Mild suspicion on Prism, Quiet, & FaC for that NK

This is talking about the Esoteric shot-why'd you feel this way?

[Prism]

Okay, still pretty neutral on flow trap.

My questions that stick out are:

1) Can you explain more about your Spartan/Quiet votes Day 2? Do you still think me/floo is town v. town?
2) I'm still really confused as to what you meant by defensive stance, I don't understand why you said said your vote on Quiet was because you suspected them only to say the reverse later. At face value this just looks like a scumslip. Can you please walk me through this as though I am 5 years old?

[Prism]

Since it seems like this conversation is over for the moment I'll circle back with my thoughts.

If the Team is indeed Floo+Spartan, what reason would they not NK Prism and NK Fairy, after all You (Quiet) and I both TR Prism

This is what is worrying me the most, especially if it does go to Prism v Floo; Quiet+Prism doesn't make that much sense either

You've had me as a townlean and have been skeptical of me all game. Quiet is explicitly paranoid. Assuming both of you are town, if either of you wind up voting me today, the game is over. On the other hand, if Spartan is town I am left alive 100% of the time.

My idea behind a fairy shot is that there are both pros to shooting them and cons to shooting outside. I'm never voting the slot, I am probably forcing the vote between myself and floo today so it's not likely to get voted by someone else, it's obviously town if/when floo flips, and it's been hostile to both yourself and Spartan.

Shooting me alleviates some pressure on floo but instantly gives my views more credence, and are unlikely kills for the goal eliminations like quiet/fairy. There may or may not be a doctor as well, disincentivizing a shot on me.

The fact that floo has been AFK thus far does not tell me floo-scum is optimistic in their ability to dodge a vote regardless.

[Prism]

Welcome to being respected as a player. The better you are, the wider your range is, and the harder it is to get townread.

...Or you can let towngames completely take over your life for days/weeks at a time. That works too.

[Prism]

Interesting that the Mafia team here prefers to kill widely townread players instead of aggressive posters. That suggests that the scum have the confidence, determination, and perceived skill to attack and defend well in LYLO or other high-stakes situations. Perhaps because they are the aggressive players themselves.

This is a nice roundabout way of calling me scum lmao, proud of you

[Prism]

if Spartan is town I am left alive 100% of the time.

you were explicitly suspicious of spartian yesterday?

Remind me where this take is coming from

You're misreading this, it's not that I'm likely to vote Spartan, it's that Spartan is likely to vote me over floo.

[Prism]

Also fairy was literally A) more aggressive than me overall B) less townread, what are you even talking about?

[Prism]

I am so curious as to how fairy was more townread than me, since this is literally only true if floo is scum

[Prism]

See here's the thing about that, though, is I'd expect them to be pushing you at this point if that was the case. Like, I'd expect the floo vs. Prism thing to have emerged at this point, and it really hasn't. Is my intuition way off there?

Like in a townSpartian world where they're trying to get spartian to vote you, doesn't someone, anyone, jump on board my paranoia trip?

We got floo coming in with the plausable shade, but that feels soft compared to what could have happened earlier today to support townSpartian's suspicion on you, to fuel the fire of a floo vs Prism spartian re-enact 300 defend floo from an army of Prisms type situation.

I lean that Spartan is scum right now over flow trap, if you're wondering.

It's hard for me vs. floo to emerge when floo just posted for the first time and I've spent the day checking into the other 3 slots first.

[Prism]

My interpretation of your last sentence of 1744 is that Spartan town would be met with someone pushing him more towards me.

floo just posted for the first time, you did ask explicitly but we'll assume you're town since this is your point, and the last person left is flow trap. I think flow trap is showing a good amount of restraint today as scum but they have not exactly been a giant advocate either way, and given Spartan scumreads flow trap I don't think they'd want to be.

[Prism]

I don't really think what flow trap

would

do as scum here is clear to me, other than not vote yet. They do the same as town.

I'm more hoping that at some point they do something that is clearly what scum flow trap

wouldn't

do, but if I have to sort around them, I have to sort around them.

[Prism]

Revisiting this I'm dying

Prism: High effort is my first impression. At the end of D2 I see a (perhaps pretended) annoyance running under his strategy, impairing it at times. I sometimes get the feeling that he imagines himself as the town superhero savior. Influential in organizing votes, reads have changed considerably - a suspicious event was the sudden flow trap threatened vote (that wasn't really an actual scumread) and backing off now. The level of effort and attempted scumhunting is impressive though and balances out the scummy deviations for a nullread.

Would need to see which of his pushes bear fruit to town/scumlean this slot.

This is literally the end of Day 2. The only person I've been shoving all day at this point is floo other than cajoling flow trap.

Literally everything about the "town superhero" bit is just trying to disincentivize voting with me without actually tackling my argument.

[Prism]

To be more explicit, the reason the bolded is absurd is that it is not exactly a mystery to be solved in the future for floo. The "fruit of my pushes" would be a floo townflip.

[Prism]

Eh I guess I was also trying to get Frederick to play the game way before, Day 2 was an adventure

Alright that's enough conf bias for the moment, I've probably done enough reading for now and should just pick back up tomorrow

[Prism]

The first is talking about a world in which Prism is scum

The second is talking about the world at large.

I am the person who stood in the way of Salsabil slot getting voted yesterday. That slot was 100% voteable if I'm scum, and much more difficult if I'm not.

I'm at work and will get to you later quiet but I touched on Spartan/floo in and 1712/1776

[Prism]

VOTE: floo

Let's dance. I think this is willfully malicious and I'm going to call you on it.

[Prism]

If you're doctor you need to claim it before the scum can coordinate a blitz btw

[Prism]

We have 5 days. This only ends if we're both town. I strongly, STRONGLY doubt it.

I have plenty I want to hear from Spartan, specifically, why the fuck he's gone to bat for floo all game long with no reasoning, and plenty more from flow trap-we're still waiting on his conclusions.

[Prism]

I also don't think flow trap's voting scheme is the worst, I want him to take a clear stance as opposed to hammersitting

as long as Spartan and quiet both understand that a floo trap scum voting one way does not mean vote the opposite.

[Prism]

I also disagree on flow trap/Spartan, which is part of why I'm voting. Spartan was around yesterday explicitly for the possibility of flipping to flow trap. Just doesn't post and goes to bed as scum/scum.

[Prism]

If you're not clear on why I chose now to vote:

I checked against every other slot. Nothing changed. floo's little content today has been disingenuous in the case of the second post and outright wrong and nonsensical in the case of the first. This is disingenuous at best and predatory at worst. The fact that he is dropping shady one liners and dipping speaks volumes.

This can and should be punished. If Spartan is scum he needs to justify that read or 180 it and bus and justify it in 3 way. If flow trap is scum he needs to prove they're not sitting around waiting for 24 hours to deadline to be opportunistic like they did yesterday. I do not want 2 town players going "AHHHHH IDK THIS IS SO HARD XD" 24 hours to deadline.

[Prism]

Claim.

[Prism]

UNVOTE:

[Prism]

I am 99% voting you today regardless of what it is. The 1% is that you are doctor.

I will humor you for a second, but not for long. I'll circle back to whatever you write when I get off work.

[Prism]

Doesn't have to be in the next day re: your vote quiet, we again have 5 days, point of the vote isn't to drive it through to 3 way immediately. It's to skip the 5 day parade if I'm wrong and force people to get off the lukewarm fence or follow through on the "But what if Prism is just the best scum in the history of mafia ever?" claims with actual reasoning.

[Prism]

somewhere ffery is enjoying watching me suffer, until i cast it as suffering

[Prism]

I call this one "A Tough Choice"

Spoiler:

Alright back to work

[Prism]

On Day 2, I realized I needed to put more effort in. The Sal scumread wasn't all because of the overdefensiveness. On D1 there were some interactions that seem fake, town doesn't go parading around town shouting "I'm town" to every passerby, simplistic views of Mafia/reasons for reading people, Fredrick being continuously scumread for an outdated reason. I noticed the overdefensiveness before but it took a look at her ISO with that point in mind to realize how extreme it was. The counter-argument to the overdefensive Sal argument was something like a TSTBS argument or a plausible town motive argument. Both fair objections, but even if it was narrowly more likely than not for the overdefensiveness to be scum, I still had the other reasons to scumread her. I was mainly focused on finding scumreads in a pool of mostly guttowny players (versus about half the game being gutscum), because both suspicious Enchant and EZ had flipped town. The essay about overdefensiveness was prompted by objections to it, not because I thought it was the overwhelming best scumtell. It was the focus of the Sal argument, so I naturally spent more time on it. Sorry if I didn't make clear some other suspicious behavior from Sal; it escaped my mind, and I unfortunately dug myself into a hole for that.

This does not tackle the crux of why I suspect your Salsabil push was scumdriven.

To be as specific as possible, the primary issue is: How were you looking to differentiate between an upset/frustrated town Salsabil and a fearful scum Salsabil?

As a secondary issue, you again refused to actually work through the implications of the reaction and the replaceout. This goes beyond having more reasoning before your vote. The next part of your post skips to after the replacement without commenting on it.

The first/third paragraphs are a great explanation of why your play this game is just you not reacting to things. The third paragraph specifically is tackling this broad idea that you've been wrong and have been wrong but will stand strong in the face of the wind, but others trying to bully you out of your reads is not the issue. You have outright refused to engage with my play for extended sections of the game despite being willing to vote me. You called my frequent posting "flying under the radar" and openly admitted to not having read or seriously evaluated the more vocal slots. This is not you playing close to your chest.

For all of the talk about standing strong in your reads in the face of adversity, hardship, this entire wall minus the second paragraph I quoted is flailing.

All of the third/fourth paragraph are giant AtEs. You didn't address my points about your first two posts of the day at all.

Taking a call be back soon

[Prism]

I will not flail when I have nothing more to say that will convince you

That is a good point

Ahhhh why do Floo and Prism both sound town

You're going to have to explain this to me. This is his first time even trying to convince me. It took me voting him to get this far after multiple gamedays of trying. He still has not seriously engaged with my content or tried to sort me at all other than the weird non-read he gave in his wall yesterday.

That wall is also a flail. He is actively trying to convince me not to vote him with AtE. In contrast, there has not been a single time this game where floo has seriously engaged with my content with the intention of sorting my slot. Where is the town intent behind this?

[Prism]

All of the first/third paragraph are giant AtEs.

EBWOP

[Prism]

Floo's Prism Read Progression

I agree that is true but I don't see why he is even somewhat vindicated when he was being scumread before them interactions occurred, Floo how do you feel about Prism? Would you be willing to join a wagon on them today?

I don't townread Prism. A lot of vote pressure/suspicion would be the best way to get a read out of

a player who stays under the radar by just contributing a lot. I'm open to voting Prism,

but I would prefer voting Salsabil Faria, who stays out of suspicion for the same reason as Prism.

???

SCUMPOOL

Order of confidence is Prism least -> Fred -> fairy most

Prism: High effort is my first impression. At the end of D2 I see a (perhaps pretended) annoyance running under his strategy, impairing it at times. I sometimes get the feeling that he imagines himself as the town superhero savior. Influential in organizing votes, reads have changed considerably - a suspicious event was the sudden flow trap threatened vote (that wasn't really an actual scumread) and backing off now.

The level of effort and attempted scumhunting is impressive though and balances out the scummy deviations for a nullread. Would need to see which of his pushes bear fruit to town/scumlean this slot.

First off how does this even match up with the first post, second off this a non-read well into the 1500s, third again I am still curious as to what fruit you were hoping for from my pushes given I was hardshoving you and cooking up different ways to get Frederick/flow trap to critically engage with the game.

VOTE: floo Very comfortable moving back.

[Prism]

Prism looks really bad if I'm voted out today.

I think Prism being scum only makes sense if Fairy is scum though.

I'm not scumleaning Prism atm, but I find that becoming more annoyed, stressed, and determined on single-handedly saving the town creates a good excuse for leading a miselim.

...Is there a reason you started out this day instantly throwing shade on me twice after seeing Fairy nightkilled?

[Prism]

This can go in 1828

I have not read enough of Prism, Spartan, or Quiet (safebet) yet to make an informed read.

Again, contribute a lot, voting me for pressure might be a good way to sort me, say we skip the "flying under the radar" bit (???), but has spent all game refusing to engage with/read into the content I had given.

Spartan, really eager for an answer as to why this slot is town to you.

[Prism]

You can argue that 1058 is just poor wording and 1548 is the same sort of fencesitting that flow trap/Spartan have done.

In contrast though the like 3 walls he's written about why the Salsabil post was legitimately hunting have failed to include any real possibility that her emotions could be legitimate as town and the two posts at the start of the day were nonsensical. I am not inclined to give this slot the benefit of the doubt anymore, and yes, I am willing to do whatever it takes to force this slot through in absence of a blitz.

[Prism]

Eh, actually, this is definitely me getting worked up and digging the trench. There are serious, serious problems with this slot and the daystart. He definitely made some convoluted walls that missed the point on Salsabil, and that is trying to convince/engage with me even if it's minimal in scope, with AtE now as the last resort.

I think it's scum and my vote stays but I'm going to slow down a bit, it's counterproductive if I'm getting worked up, the game becomes unreadable, and I let rigor go out the window.

[Prism]

I'm going to cede the floor to other for a bit. We're all waiting on Spartan and to a lesser extent flow trap. These voices are important.

[Prism]

Sorry, mind doesn't ever turn off.

Quiet-why were you aiming for voting in 12-24 hours as opposed to something longer?

[Prism]

Confirmed not flow trap/Spartan

[Prism]

@Quiet: Also wondering: Why have you chosen to not publicly walk through the meta you did?

[Prism]

Am out atm but it's from you posting simultaneously, can't blitz, post was more for quiet. 0 chance Spartan shows up EoD to potentially flip you Day 2

[Prism]

Floo. Claim.

[Prism]

I wil obviously claim after.

Town needs to make a judgment as to who should first and force it under threat of vote. Hint: It's floo.

[Prism]

Really appreciate the time and effort you put into that Spartan. I didn't really sleep last night so I'll tackle it in the morning. Let me know what you think of my slot on reread.

[Prism]

That might have come off a bit brusque, but really-thanks for handling that in the best possible way, and I look forward to reading it tomorrow.

[Prism]

Am out atm but it's from you posting simultaneously, can't blitz, post was more for quiet. 0 chance Spartan shows up EoD to potentially flip you Day 2

Would that include Flow+Quiet/Quiet+Spartan? as well

At the time of the post, Quiet had not yet checked in, ie. a scumteam with quiet could not yet have blitzed.

Quiet posted shortly thereafter, all 3 of you were around, and no blitz=Yes, scum is now confirmed to be in me/floo unless one of you doesn't know how to coordinate a blitz (In which case: Set a specific time for both of you to post, use time.is to synch down to the second)

[Prism]

The first is talking about a world in which Prism is scum

The second is talking about the world at large.

I am the person who stood in the way of Salsabil slot getting voted yesterday. That slot was 100% voteable if I'm scum, and much more difficult if I'm not.

I'm at work and will get to you later quiet but I touched on Spartan/floo in and 1712/1776

In effect saying, floo's point is invalid because I am town.

This is gross misrepresentation. Your bolded quotes in conjunction imply that I shot fairyprincess69 because he was widely townread/that I did not think I could get him voted.

If you are town, it is absolutely conceivable that I can get fairyprincess69 voted out, even if not guaranteed. You can vote them without me doing anything. They are not a widely townread slot at all if I, the scum, am the only one really defending it going into 5 way Elo.

In contrast, if you are mafia and I am town, it is very difficult for you to actually really the votes to get them voted out.

Your second quote is yours, and is blatantly targeted at me with the last sentence. The first sentence makes no sense to begin with from a town-floo perspective, because again, fairyprincess was

not a widely townread slot

if you are town, especially not if I'm mafia.

If you're worried about me making the NK you don't have to.

That kill is outright against

my philosophy

for playing the mafia alignment, which is

explicitly shooting people that I think won't get voted

. I'll try to dig up a few posts that confirm that if you want.

Still unclear to me why you (quiet) think the kill doesn't make sense. I get that you said you're thinking on it still but that's a strong claim.

Interesting that the

Mafia team here prefers to kill widely townread players

instead of aggressive posters. That suggests that the scum have the confidence, determination, and perceived skill to attack and defend well in LYLO or other high-stakes situations. Perhaps because they are the aggressive players themselves.

This is a nice roundabout way of calling me scum lmao, proud of you

(bold added)

hmm

[Prism]

floo, here's an idea: Since the bolded implies it, rather than forcing me to explain your point explicitly in order to refute it:

Maybe you should explain it yourself!

Why was fairyprincess69 widely townread from your perspective, and what makes him especially difficult for them to get voted today if I am mafia?

[Prism]

I wanted you N1ed basically because you weren't ever getting lynched (Which is my #1 criteria for shots)

I was mafia the game this quote is from, maybe I was lying for towncred?

Oh wait, this comment was doing postgame analysis. Damn!

[Prism]

Spartan, I'm going to try to make this as readable as possible, which is hard to do by making a huge wall split into a million quotes. I'm going to give my direct reply in

red

instead, that way you can immediately see what I am referencing.

Spoiler: Quote wall

Below I am going to list a few quotes I found to give me a feeling of them being town, whether it was from them trying to scum hunt/sort people, or engage with others.

With the game becoming more serious, I can explain my motives. I switched my RVS vote from Enchant to flow trap because I wanted to see where a conversation would go. flow trap's posting style is lighthearted with a lot of small talk and interactions with other player, as one of the most active users so far (might be the most active in terms of post count). I stated my vote was "partially serious" (40) to avoid seeming suspicious from an apparent OMGUS (as you guessed) and a second (apparently) random vote. I am explaining my intentions now because I would rather have flow trap discuss his/her gameplay or opinions than post joke reactions.

Early on as far as D1 goes but was trying to obtain information from flow trap rather than some reactions that scum may have been fine with and just ridden along, as scumfloo surely wouldn't have been as worried about putting in the effort in, especially to try and divert the game towards a productive direction.

Scum definitely need to put in effort early, you see lurkers getting voted all the time, eg. Frederick this game. I liked their start too, but for the second part: There is again some incentive to actively sort/hunt as scum, and at this point it is clear that at least one of us has done so. For my part, I have done my best to keep us moving repeatedly throughout the game.

What about safebet222?

Chasing up flow trap so as to get the full answer from him, something far more likely to come from town while scum would be less inclined to push for the full answer.

Again, scum have incentive to actually pressure/sort, otherwise we'd both be town here.

Right, as I explained I said it was "partially serious" to avoid seeming scummy / too random.

The concern of coming across scummy and feeling the need to explain why they expressed themselves in a certain way is a bit sus but i can see the reason as to why they are saying it, so NAI for me here.

I see other players passing esotericzoomer for questioning the flow trap wagon for a difference in gameplay philosophy. The problem is he was too insistent in his complaint even though flow trap was at zero chance to actually die. There was no harm in the wagon while he yelled that there was no gain. That makes me think EZ was insincere. Besides he has no reads besides the convenient safebet scumread needed to vote him even though he talks Mafia theory and debates the little town/scumtells other people have pointed out. Scumlean on esotericzoomer currently.

This read met with what was going on at the time, and felt a natural branch out from the previous focus he had put on flow trap up to this point.

I feel like this is the dangerous "mindmeld" aspect since I know you scumread esoteric too. It's not a terrible read but again, not a town beacon.

possible motives for this:
- wild reaction test (most rational motive)
- attention seeking
- perplex other players
- avoid scumreads for posting weird stuff (like the Mafia joke claim) and then not posting weird stuff
- concern over lolhammer (talked about it at the beginning of the game, very disapprovingly)

Again trying to break down reads understand possible reasons for posts and at the very least providing perspectives for townies to view from.

Again, pretty basic imo

Your comments about 365 assume that Enchant and Fredrick are scumpartners. Let's say that Fredrick is town, however, regardless of Enchant's alignment. Then he would just be asking you to read Enchant in a different way that is more logically sound, which is perfectly normal for town to do. I haven't read/thought enough about if it is likely that Enchant and Fredrick are partners.

You said in 228 that you didn't want to give Enchant the benefit of the doubt because you "don't want to get burned again." If I'm reading that as it appears, you don't want to think about Enchant with the proper assumptions because you don't want to be voted. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm reading through your ISO and feel like half of your posts are interactions with flow trap. What's your current read on flow trap?

Again coming across very townie, pushing players looking for reads trying to view things from different perspectives to analyse things from all angles rather than just focusing on one view and holding it and pushing it without looking at the alternatives.

Again I am left wondering who you think the scum is here given that we have literally all been doing this-giving perspectives, often both sides, and actively hunting/pushing-this game.

To explain more, just because Enchant is unpredictable. I don't want to risk any hammer while this conversation between quiet and Enchant is still ongoing

At the end of D1 he unvoted enchant to ensure the day didnt end too quickly so that the conversation could continue something i think is only in the interests of town, it could have been so much easier for him to just leave his vote on there, but instead he unvotes.

It's a safe unvote as scum if you're aware they did something terrible and are unlikely to recover from even if you do nothing. I actually did the same later for a much more specific reason (I thought the reads wall was worth considering given the effort, Enchant-scum is incentivized to just shut up and quit). This just adds texture

If he's that desperate, yes.

Enchant appears to have attempted gamethrow in frustrated desperation, that's the important takeaway. Could be legitimate town desperation or a scum Hail Mary.

Again viewing things from both sides, short and simple but at the very least not cancelling any options out completely.

Yeah we've been over this at this point, probably just going to start skipping over these.

1005 came across from a towns perspective as well i could see where he was coming from even if i didnt agree with all the points he made. Town aren't all suppose to agree with the same points as we are looking at things from different perspectives assuming everyone but ourselves is possible mafia.

Reasons to kill esotericzoomer:

Widely townread?

esotericzoomer was more of a "passive townread," in that he was away from scrutiny in the final leg of Day 1. He had his share of scummy lines to justify a vote. Prism or myself would be a better choice for this reason.

Scumreads

His other scumread was Fredrick. There are other players who scumread Fredrick, so killing EZ would be a poor choice. Fredrick is somewhat vindicated by Enchant's town flip. Plus, EZ's 100% confidence about scumreading Enchant would have blocked his chances of pushing a further scumread.

I think there are two plausible reasons then. The two reasons I mentioned above would not be the main reasons to kill, but could be secondary ones.
- Probable power role. I have not read enough into EZ's posts to see where this is implied though.
- Avoid Doctor/Jailkeeper. This is a hybrid reason which combines "widely townread" and/or "scumreads."

Expressed thoughts on the D1 NK something that he didnt have to do, but felt the need to review to express more reads and delve deeper into the ties between players, something that some other players at the time were not willing to do.

I hated the NK spec N1 personally-I think NK spec earlygame tends to just be a wild goose chase when scum frequently shoot for vague PR feelings-but it's really trivial to fake, especially if you spent all night thinking about the kill

1108 pushing sal based of the image conscious nature they presented of themselves.

Is being dismissive really towny or NAI? There's a line between "the scumreads on me don't matter, I'll just hunt for scum" versus "the people who scumread me are stupid." I'm seeing the latter from Salsabil Faria.

I took a negative tone because I knew she was more prone to being baited into a fight as you call it, I wouldn't do the same to a calmer player who reasons it out rather than yelling with GIFs and emojis. Sal is baiting me too into a fight, either intentionally or not, by responding to a harsh and serious accusation flippantly. This only makes me want to pressure her further, which I did, consciously accepting the risk of growing bitterness. Is a dismissive and flippant attitude appropriate anymore?

I can see the logic in the reasoning behind their push on the origin from Sals reaction, while Sal had appeared townie day 1, I can see why with several of Sals posts which showed signs of concern about being scum read to be suspicious so I think this route of enquiry makes logical sense.


1202 He provides a full breakdown of Sals posts with other players looking at it from her perspective as well as from the outside rather than just attacking for his opinion upon what she has said. and at the very end of his post its not just ending the situation there say with a vote, he leaves it open for more room for discussion so that the situation can develop and more reads can progress.

Explain your reads and don't respond with an "I don't care"

Townie reaction that I can resonate with, frustration from being palmed off.

I'm going to respond to this section about the Salsabil read as a whole. I concur in thinking Salsabil was defensive, overreactionary, etc. was a decent push. My issue came because town get frustrated/upset/indignant all the time, if floo has chat mafia experience he's definitely seen it, and they openly baited more of the emotion to keep shoving rather than try to differentiate the two. It's fine to take a guess, but floo is baiting something out that's going to happen regardless, rather than actually trying to differentiate it. It has always and remains unclear what floo was looking for if Salsabil was upset/frustrated as scum. He pushed her for playing dismissively/suboptimally and then actively tried to bait out more of it. He knows there's a chance it's town, the concern should be

telling the angry Salsabil and the fearful Salsabil apart

, and he never seriously tried to do so and refused to engage with the slot even when shown to be legitimate.

1223 1225 while reviewing quiets slot, not only does floo provide a breakdown of posts of quiets with descriptions of their thoughts on them, he also breaks down safebets posts from before they switched out to try and gain a more in-depth read on the slot, something that i dont see scum bothering to do, it just strikes me as something townie.

bruh I'm sorry but we've literally all done this this game

1259 expands on his reads of quiet providing more reads and information also doubting himself at the start of the post opening himself up for people to respond and challenge his read of their slot, not being close minded that his read is final and having an open mind ready for change is another aspect that makes me feel very townie with his slot.

1317 1318 his posts here seem methodical and thought out coming across to me as if trying to solve the puzzle, trying to have open discussion with prism going through post by post on his thoughts about the posts and interactions between him and sal on their reasoning for scumreading him.

1548 His final reads on D2, while I may not agree with all of it I can understand his rational behind why he thinks that way and it doesn't come across like his is trying to push a point that has some agenda behind it, more that they are his opinions.

For all of the above, mafia is not "they're scum/town. i am sure. they have no reasons." Scum are fully capable of having texture. We have literally all done this this game. The reads wall he gave absolutely had an agenda, it dodges the most pressing issues and the read on me was transparently a non-read if you review it. His entire progression on me was awful: go back and look at the response he gave to you about me.

So my impression now that I've finished this: You've done a good job establishing that floo has been sorting and giving reads with some texture. This doesn't address the glaring issues with the treatment of some of these reads (ex. Progression on me is ????, refusing to acknowledge that Salsabil might be frustrated, mostly disappearing Day 2, first two posts of Day 3+his latest all being extremely disingenuous/outright nonsensical (Again, how the fuck is fairyprincess a super town slot if floo is town and I'm mafia?)

I can try to point you to more direct posts in a second, but the rough part of the wall here is more me commenting on why your reasons for townreading them are incomplete.

[Prism]

Spartan, I'm going to try to make this as readable as possible, which is hard to do by making a huge wall split into a million quotes. I'm going to give my direct reply in

red

instead, that way you can immediately see what I am referencing.

Spoiler: Quote wall

Below I am going to list a few quotes I found to give me a feeling of them being town, whether it was from them trying to scum hunt/sort people, or engage with others.

With the game becoming more serious, I can explain my motives. I switched my RVS vote from Enchant to flow trap because I wanted to see where a conversation would go. flow trap's posting style is lighthearted with a lot of small talk and interactions with other player, as one of the most active users so far (might be the most active in terms of post count). I stated my vote was "partially serious" (40) to avoid seeming suspicious from an apparent OMGUS (as you guessed) and a second (apparently) random vote. I am explaining my intentions now because I would rather have flow trap discuss his/her gameplay or opinions than post joke reactions.

Early on as far as D1 goes but was trying to obtain information from flow trap rather than some reactions that scum may have been fine with and just ridden along, as scumfloo surely wouldn't have been as worried about putting in the effort in, especially to try and divert the game towards a productive direction.

Scum definitely need to put in effort early, you see lurkers getting voted all the time, eg. Frederick this game. I liked their start too, but for the second part: There is again some incentive to actively sort/hunt as scum, and at this point it is clear that at least one of us has done so. For my part, I have done my best to keep us moving repeatedly throughout the game.

What about safebet222?

Chasing up flow trap so as to get the full answer from him, something far more likely to come from town while scum would be less inclined to push for the full answer.

Again, scum have incentive to actually pressure/sort, otherwise we'd both be town here.

Right, as I explained I said it was "partially serious" to avoid seeming scummy / too random.

The concern of coming across scummy and feeling the need to explain why they expressed themselves in a certain way is a bit sus but i can see the reason as to why they are saying it, so NAI for me here.

I see other players passing esotericzoomer for questioning the flow trap wagon for a difference in gameplay philosophy. The problem is he was too insistent in his complaint even though flow trap was at zero chance to actually die. There was no harm in the wagon while he yelled that there was no gain. That makes me think EZ was insincere. Besides he has no reads besides the convenient safebet scumread needed to vote him even though he talks Mafia theory and debates the little town/scumtells other people have pointed out. Scumlean on esotericzoomer currently.

This read met with what was going on at the time, and felt a natural branch out from the previous focus he had put on flow trap up to this point.

I feel like this is the dangerous "mindmeld" aspect since I know you scumread esoteric too. It's not a terrible read but again, not a town beacon.

possible motives for this:
- wild reaction test (most rational motive)
- attention seeking
- perplex other players
- avoid scumreads for posting weird stuff (like the Mafia joke claim) and then not posting weird stuff
- concern over lolhammer (talked about it at the beginning of the game, very disapprovingly)

Again trying to break down reads understand possible reasons for posts and at the very least providing perspectives for townies to view from.

Again, pretty basic imo

Your comments about 365 assume that Enchant and Fredrick are scumpartners. Let's say that Fredrick is town, however, regardless of Enchant's alignment. Then he would just be asking you to read Enchant in a different way that is more logically sound, which is perfectly normal for town to do. I haven't read/thought enough about if it is likely that Enchant and Fredrick are partners.

You said in 228 that you didn't want to give Enchant the benefit of the doubt because you "don't want to get burned again." If I'm reading that as it appears, you don't want to think about Enchant with the proper assumptions because you don't want to be voted. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm reading through your ISO and feel like half of your posts are interactions with flow trap. What's your current read on flow trap?

Again coming across very townie, pushing players looking for reads trying to view things from different perspectives to analyse things from all angles rather than just focusing on one view and holding it and pushing it without looking at the alternatives.

Again I am left wondering who you think the scum is here given that we have literally all been doing this-giving perspectives, often both sides, and actively hunting/pushing-this game.

To explain more, just because Enchant is unpredictable. I don't want to risk any hammer while this conversation between quiet and Enchant is still ongoing

At the end of D1 he unvoted enchant to ensure the day didnt end too quickly so that the conversation could continue something i think is only in the interests of town, it could have been so much easier for him to just leave his vote on there, but instead he unvotes.

It's a safe unvote as scum if you're aware they did something terrible and are unlikely to recover from even if you do nothing. I actually did the same later for a much more specific reason (I thought the reads wall was worth considering given the effort, Enchant-scum is incentivized to just shut up and quit). This just adds texture

If he's that desperate, yes.

Enchant appears to have attempted gamethrow in frustrated desperation, that's the important takeaway. Could be legitimate town desperation or a scum Hail Mary.

Again viewing things from both sides, short and simple but at the very least not cancelling any options out completely.

Yeah we've been over this at this point, probably just going to start skipping over these.

1005 came across from a towns perspective as well i could see where he was coming from even if i didnt agree with all the points he made. Town aren't all suppose to agree with the same points as we are looking at things from different perspectives assuming everyone but ourselves is possible mafia.

Reasons to kill esotericzoomer:

Widely townread?

esotericzoomer was more of a "passive townread," in that he was away from scrutiny in the final leg of Day 1. He had his share of scummy lines to justify a vote. Prism or myself would be a better choice for this reason.

Scumreads

His other scumread was Fredrick. There are other players who scumread Fredrick, so killing EZ would be a poor choice. Fredrick is somewhat vindicated by Enchant's town flip. Plus, EZ's 100% confidence about scumreading Enchant would have blocked his chances of pushing a further scumread.

I think there are two plausible reasons then. The two reasons I mentioned above would not be the main reasons to kill, but could be secondary ones.
- Probable power role. I have not read enough into EZ's posts to see where this is implied though.
- Avoid Doctor/Jailkeeper. This is a hybrid reason which combines "widely townread" and/or "scumreads."

Expressed thoughts on the D1 NK something that he didnt have to do, but felt the need to review to express more reads and delve deeper into the ties between players, something that some other players at the time were not willing to do.

I hated the NK spec N1 personally-I think NK spec earlygame tends to just be a wild goose chase when scum frequently shoot for vague PR feelings-but it's really trivial to fake, especially if you spent all night thinking about the kill

1108 pushing sal based of the image conscious nature they presented of themselves.

Is being dismissive really towny or NAI? There's a line between "the scumreads on me don't matter, I'll just hunt for scum" versus "the people who scumread me are stupid." I'm seeing the latter from Salsabil Faria.

I took a negative tone because I knew she was more prone to being baited into a fight as you call it, I wouldn't do the same to a calmer player who reasons it out rather than yelling with GIFs and emojis. Sal is baiting me too into a fight, either intentionally or not, by responding to a harsh and serious accusation flippantly. This only makes me want to pressure her further, which I did, consciously accepting the risk of growing bitterness. Is a dismissive and flippant attitude appropriate anymore?

I can see the logic in the reasoning behind their push on the origin from Sals reaction, while Sal had appeared townie day 1, I can see why with several of Sals posts which showed signs of concern about being scum read to be suspicious so I think this route of enquiry makes logical sense.


1202 He provides a full breakdown of Sals posts with other players looking at it from her perspective as well as from the outside rather than just attacking for his opinion upon what she has said. and at the very end of his post its not just ending the situation there say with a vote, he leaves it open for more room for discussion so that the situation can develop and more reads can progress.

Explain your reads and don't respond with an "I don't care"

Townie reaction that I can resonate with, frustration from being palmed off.

I'm going to respond to this section about the Salsabil read as a whole. I concur in thinking Salsabil was defensive, overreactionary, etc. was a decent push. My issue came because town get frustrated/upset/indignant all the time, if floo has chat mafia experience he's definitely seen it, and they openly baited more of the emotion to keep shoving rather than try to differentiate the two. It's fine to take a guess, but floo is baiting something out that's going to happen regardless, rather than actually trying to differentiate it. It has always and remains unclear what floo was looking for if Salsabil was upset/frustrated as scum. He pushed her for playing dismissively/suboptimally and then actively tried to bait out more of it. He knows there's a chance it's town, the concern should be

telling the angry Salsabil and the fearful Salsabil apart

, and he never seriously tried to do so and refused to engage with the slot even when shown to be legitimate.

1223 1225 while reviewing quiets slot, not only does floo provide a breakdown of posts of quiets with descriptions of their thoughts on them, he also breaks down safebets posts from before they switched out to try and gain a more in-depth read on the slot, something that i dont see scum bothering to do, it just strikes me as something townie.

bruh I'm sorry but we've literally all done this this game

1259 expands on his reads of quiet providing more reads and information also doubting himself at the start of the post opening himself up for people to respond and challenge his read of their slot, not being close minded that his read is final and having an open mind ready for change is another aspect that makes me feel very townie with his slot.

1317 1318 his posts here seem methodical and thought out coming across to me as if trying to solve the puzzle, trying to have open discussion with prism going through post by post on his thoughts about the posts and interactions between him and sal on their reasoning for scumreading him.

1548 His final reads on D2, while I may not agree with all of it I can understand his rational behind why he thinks that way and it doesn't come across like his is trying to push a point that has some agenda behind it, more that they are his opinions.

For all of the above, mafia is not "they're scum/town. i am sure. they have no reasons." Scum are fully capable of having texture. We have literally all done this this game. The reads wall he gave absolutely had an agenda, it dodges the most pressing issues and the read on me was transparently a non-read if you review it. His entire progression on me was awful: go back and look at the response he gave to you about me.

So my impression now that I've finished this: You've done a good job establishing that floo has been sorting and giving reads with some texture. This doesn't address the glaring issues with the treatment of some of these reads (ex. Progression on me is ????, refusing to acknowledge that Salsabil might be frustrated, mostly disappearing Day 2, first two posts of Day 3+his latest all being extremely disingenuous/outright nonsensical (Again, how the fuck is fairyprincess a super town slot if floo is town and I'm mafia?)

I can try to point you to more direct posts in a second, but the rough part of the wall here is this is more me commenting on why your reasons for townreading them are incomplete, with no room in the wall for really extrapolating why they're scum.

[Prism]

The double post while I completed that last sentence, F

[Prism]

??? fferyllt how did you lose my vote lmao

[Prism]

Did I unvote in a fever dream? Are you unused to me actually voting the mafia instead of being the scum MVP as town?

[Prism]

I really, really liked floo day1. I was against eliminating floo yesterday, for basically the same reason you have pulled out in that review of their play; their posts throughout the game give almost every appearance of being from someone who wanted to solve the game, and I was really hoping I'd see something today to help support that feeling. But basically, as it stands, finding an innocent floo means finding a guilty prism. And here's where the case on floo starts to sour a bit.

My suspicion of floo mostly comes from what they are not posting, and not responding to. It comes from a place of me really struggling to TR someone who won't engage and casually throw out reads, or some kind of flash impression take.

I am deeply concerned about your progression on floo here.

Day 2 you felt my points on the floo-Salsabil push compelling. You acknowledged that the curated posts weren't actually that town. You expressed the willingness to follow me, but when push came to shove went for the AFK voter in Frederick.

Today you've been very adamant that at some point you'll vote floo, which is great, but that's not really what I'm worried about.

Would you like me too? Frankly, I find copying and pasting between threads challenging, I think meta reads are generally good ancillary evidence, but not case building in of themselves. I’ve reviewed some games from you and I reviewed what was available from Salsa in the context of a floo read; I took a quick look at floo, but was planning to do so much more before I voted tmmrw, just wanted to see if they would engage in a more causal chat with me first. I also did the Flow Trap alternate form metaread of the game they linked (and was very proud to determine who they were despite our chaos god not telling me their alt’s name. It was very exciting.)

My concern here is that you've apparently done a lot of meta research, found very good reasons to townread me with it, and instead it's in this wall about why I'm town for mostly tonal reasons to do with my intensity, anxiety, friendship/rivalry with ffery, etc. You're not wrong but this isn't even trying to really convince anyone that I'm town, these are super subjective. With the meta case there are

extremely concrete

reasons for why I'm town that are objective, which you've apparently reviewed but chosen not to present except as secondary to the more emotional appeal.

You've given good reads for the most part and been spot on at times but there are real problems with your positioning around floo and how you've approached the day, and it's not okay that I handwaive it just because you've presented good analytical ability with no obvious ulterior motive, when the ulterior motive for you would just be to never get voted rather than trying too hard to frame someone else.

I appreciate the response about the 12-24 hours but it's unclear how legitimate it is and if speeding it up in wake of no response would be a good idea anyway, while speeding the game up is absolutely good for you as scum if you're bussing.

[Prism]

also at this point you are just teasing me, i'm going to have so many emotions if the mod interactions are a play.

like I know it's totally in bounds, but god.

I mean, given the concrete reads I've given this game and the concrete flips, what do you think?

I can go through the history behind me/ffery if someone wants but that's not really the concern here imo.

[Prism]

To clarify, I have gotten a number of flow trap town pings. I've really liked how they've approached today, and I think right now, my ultimate conclusion on the flow trap slot is that our chaos god is an ever so slightly benevolent one, but it's chaos so my level of certainty here is trash.

Can you be more specific here? It looks like you understood Spartan's position quite well.

It's not that I disagree, to be clear.

[Prism]

You've also asked me about several things this day that I both like, JUST talked about and was already trying to dialogue with you about, which I get that it's a lot to keep track of but make me question your sincerity in how much you actually value my opinion as opposed to just going through the motions of *~teamwork~*

See here's the thing about that, though, is I'd expect them to be pushing you at this point if that was the case. Like, I'd expect the floo vs. Prism thing to have emerged at this point, and it really hasn't. Is my intuition way off there?

Like in a townSpartian world where they're trying to get spartian to vote you, doesn't someone, anyone, jump on board my paranoia trip?

We got floo coming in with the plausable shade, but that feels soft compared to what could have happened earlier today to support townSpartian's suspicion on you, to fuel the fire of a floo vs Prism spartian re-enact 300 defend floo from an army of Prisms type situation.

I lean that Spartan is scum right now over flow trap, if you're wondering.

It's hard for me vs. floo to emerge when floo just posted for the first time and I've spent the day checking into the other 3 slots first.

I also disagree on flow trap/Spartan, which is part of why I'm voting. Spartan was around yesterday explicitly for the possibility of flipping to flow trap. Just doesn't post and goes to bed as scum/scum.

@prism when you pick up, I'd be curious for your assessment on a spartan/floo team. It seems decently in play to me, I do think it's feasable that Spartan TRs a scumbuddy, especially as they have accused both me and you of doing the same.

There was something else earlier that gave me the same feeling that I'll quote if I find but like ???

[Prism]

Prism, stop poking at me.

I mean, respectfully, no, I'm essentially a forced NK and do not get to do this tomorrow and have instead just been AFK going "I guess it's Spartan" even though Spartan's hard defense Day 2 and openly begging me not to vote floo is really questionable as scum over something more in between.

The entire next section is nice for giving me more context on the meta, and you're again

not wrong

that my emotions are legitimate and town, but again you're not actually tracking or giving much judgement on my reads at all. The one time I remember you clearly tagging on you walked it back without any new development/clear point of revisitation? This is just a glaring blindspot I feel like you had to have evaluated

at some point

even if not now

yes yes something something retroactive logic, but prism, if I'm as halfway decent as you seem to believe, why would I slip like that? Why wouldn't I just ride it out, wait for the time to tick over a bit? I don't think the cost of making you even more suspicious would be worth the accelerated day, and the attention it would bring to me, assuming I'm trying to bus here. Also, wouldn't my positioning on floo be way different?

I understand that as town you're saying you weren't going to actually vote in 12-24 hours. As scum though it's not you "slipping" or not being "halfway decent", it would be you rushing the game to your benefit. It's absolutely fine to draw attention to yourself in a bus, especially when you can blitz if someone else makes the opposite vote.

I don't get your how positioning on floo differs as mafia here in your last sentence. You angled like you were willing to go on me with them yesterday and found my point compelling but at some point that was just

no longer true

[Prism]

Frankly, I think your concrete reads are the thing YOU could most easily fake as scum, and the ffery interactions would be considerably harder.

I mean this again isn't

wrong

, but with the assistance of knowing what I am already this just becomes so much easier to see and handwaive off.

I don't think you're actually scum over Spartan but you need to justify your Day 2 and your progression on me/floo, if not now than tomorrow.

[Prism]

I think I've made my point on quiet and it's time to circle back to flow.

flow trap-do you have the rest of your wall? What do you feel you need from me?

[Prism]

I don't know how to respond to this. I don't exactly see how the first quote you pulled fits into that framework of me not valuing your opinion/bringing things up that you were trting to dialog with? I was responding to you, mostly to try to clarify my own takes. I promise I have been reading and paying attention.

Actually, I'm really lost on this whole post. I asked the question about flow trap/spartian on 1785, you responded on 1799, I asked...
when was I ignoring your points? Is me trying to clarify

i'm just lost on this one. I trust your slot, so asking you questions about the state of the game is me trying to sort {spartian, floo, flow trap}.

I definitely out of order on this one, you're right that the second post was actually my response rather than the one before. 1717 was the other post I talked about it but it was definitely tucked away in a much larger post.

I'm not really sure what I was smoking with the post ordering so that's my fault, and yeah 1717 is a lot more tucked away and I didn't give the reasoning immediately beforehand like I thought I did. Need to actually reread what I'm quoting rather than remembering where I put what.

I felt I had been talking about a Spartan/flow trap team being unlikely a lot as you considered it I had just mentioned it and touched on it a few hours before, and it's why I cut in again with eliminating that team specifically later.

What a mess, that's on me.

I know there was one other time I felt this way which I'll try to find later.

[Prism]

Can you be more specific here? It looks like you understood Spartan's position quite well.

Do you want me to clarify my read on Flow Trap?

Yeah, that'd be nice, but I've been super demanding and need to chill. I've made my point that I think your progressions are worth digging more into. You're not the vote today in any case.

Like even if you missed things I said then asked about them later, this is definitely happens as town and doesn't mean you're not engaging with me in good faith.

And you lost me with the "you understood Spartan's position quite well" bit, not sure what that's in reference to.

re: Spartan's wall on floo, it doesn't mean you have to townread Spartan over flow trap but it's why I want you to be more specific.

[Prism]

My grammar is going to shit, my memory is shit and I'm not even reading to make sure my posts said what I thought they did, good hint that it's time to *~step away from the keyboard~*

Posts like 1872 are/were transparently halfassed and give the impression floo isn't even trying, the wall was appealing to me over any specific player of the three, and I just do not like that idea that he is counting on 3 way given how we're all just like "IDK guess it's Spartan he defended floo" but pummeling you for asking me about something or why you haven't objectively argued for me being town when objectivity isn't the source of the read to begin with is not the answer

[Prism]

So I'm sorry too, is what I'm saying. I am scared of you, yes. This was a little bit insane. Hug. Reset. Circle back later.

[Prism]

Aight, I'm back around. If you're around quiet I'm down to hear more about your flow trap read or if you want to talk more specifically about the evolution of your thinking on floo EoD, I'll try and dig back too.

[Prism]

So being more specific, I'm asking what changed between 1374 and 1437 here.

Vote order as of right this second is:
floo->spartian/fred->flow->fairy->prism

[re: Prism case on floo] I think this is fairly compelling to me. The other thing that pinged me about floo was that his original case on Salsabill came after I raised a similar concern in a MUCH quieter way. It would be a good place for scum to jump on a wagon I’d started, and maybe where floo derived his “solution” from....[rest of post].

@Prism I'm willing to vote floo today, I just don't feel great about it. But you don't feel great about Spartian. If we miss on floo, do you think we hit on Spartian tmmrw? Or do I need to think even harder.

Later posts make some reference to Frederick being better/maybe there not being scum in floo and Spartan at all, but I can't find anything about why floo specifically got more town. Frederick was not a terrible vote except with the power of hindsight, but you were a big part of why I didn't get my choice of floo, and I want to understand why you shifted.

[Prism]

Floo: Salsa scumread was light, careful play could be scummy, but Spartian strong TR and the well argued points they have made make me doubt a bit. This slot also sketches me the fuck out, and is where I vote if Fred goes nowhere.

Mmmmmm, why did the Spartan TR affect this so much?

[Prism]

I'm back for a sec! and no worries, your poke at me makes a lot more sense with the context you've given, ty for clarifying. I didn't/don't mind notes on my progression, as I actually agree that it's not great necessarily, and that I havn't really been practicing what I preach in terms of consistently trying to be transparent and open with my reads so others can sort me, and doubly so today, where I've been almost completely focused on making sure that the game doesn't end today vs. trying to make sure the game can be won tmmrw. I was feeling much worse when I was under the impression that you thought I wasn't communicating in good faith, especially given how hard I've been trying to do so with Spartian and floo.

I think what I've realized from this is that most of my communication/work/effort/attention has been going into reading carefully and responding to floo and spartian. I've been working as hard as I can to be open and to communicate in good faith with those slots, as they are my strongest suspicions (well, floo is strongest, and spartan is the slot I most need to sort in relation to floo today), and since you sit so firmly in the "town" bucket for me, I probably was not affording your posts the same curtesy, though I have been reading them. We can move on from this for now, just ping me if there's anything you wanted to chat about.

I'll move point by point through your questions on my reads, and try to provide a little more clarity about how I see the game rn, what my general strategy towards today has been, and any other progression notes I can give.

I mean yeah, not focusing on me as much is completely reasonable given where you're at, and even if you're not paying as much attention that...makes total sense and doesn't mean that you're being insincere or facetious by asking about something you missed. You can care about what I think in general, and take specific interest in one topic, but not carefully pore over my word like it's the gospel. It's also just annoying to have to divert energy sorting towards energy defending yourself to begin with.

I definitely think I overstepped the bounds of "due diligence on reads" into paranoid foil territory

[Prism]

Since there is a 99.9% chance that it is between you & Floo, I completely expect a Quiet-Flow-Spartan F3, so how would you rank us from most to least suspicious?

1. Spartan
2. flow trap
3. quiet

I think you're more up in the air than I'd like. Your analysis today has been good but is still lacking in clear conclusions/final arguments other than "leaning me" which in light of yesterday does not give me great confidence.

There's more reason to believe Spartan is scum, I definitely asked for him to work backwards to justify the floo TR but it's just...not persuasive given that we've all given that same quality of analysis by this point, with much clearer intentions. He needs to do so, so much more here to move up. No scum team ever lines up cleanly-even the real one-but I agree with quiet that harddefending floo there-without even giving reasoning-is really weird to do over something more lukewarm.

quiet is strong and capable of faking reads/textured analysis, but like...other than pulling off of floo yesterday there just really isn't any reason I can see to scumread this slot. If he sat there and just gave analysis 24/7, hoped to not get voted, and the only time he was opportunistic at all was EoD yesterday, then okay. I'm not really sure what else to do here other than make him show his work.

[Prism]

Like there are things about quiet that have made me anxious, like when I remembered the 12-24 hour comment and went down the rabbit hole, or not going into depth on the meta, but calling them singularly scum-motivated is a stretch. In an ideal world yeah, he sells other slots on me using more objective claims if he has the means/belief, but that's not the aspects he feels the most strongly about, and that's been shown repeatedly throughout the game, or why he had the read to begin with, so of course he's not going to instantly go to that.

[Prism]

I think 1916 lines up? The reasoning on floo tracks with the scum posting, which started I think when I pointed out that carefully curated posts aren't supertown, and the struggles were definitely in line with the too many TRs bit, which I think floo was a part of at one point. I can also see quiet buying into Spartan's tone in 1319, and it's not even like Spartan was

wrong

. We all just didn't want to vote the coinflip.

Understanding that quiet found it compelling but that he wasn't overall sold that they were completely scum is the missing link here, and it's not *~strongly town~* but does explain this and doesn't contradict anything other than the word "compelling", quiet had laid out the pros/cons of the floo slot pretty clearly and they weren't universal, I think the ambivalence is justified?

Like if quiet is scum I do not understand why other than "He just pretended to be town all game, gave legitimate reads the entire time, and hoped to never be PoE'd or mech solved", and that is a lot easier said than done.

[Prism]

Like literally half of my paranoia on quiet is "Why does he seem to

know

I'm town?"

Like geez, I don't know,

probably because my heart doesn't go on my sleeve but bleeds out all over the goddamn floor

[Prism]

I think what makes flow trap difficult to sort is that he goes from virtually no content to going over the top. I want to know what a flow trap scum looks like, because I suspect they make these same sort of YOLO calls as scum, but the reasoning on the partners was not bad at all nor has their wall analysis.

The bad things about the slot are:
1) Not doing anything at EoD yesterday
2) The one real wall he made was defending floo, and imo it was super lackluster
3) That contradiction on why he voted quiet was bad but also...totally flow trap

Leaning me as town is cool and all but he's got complete freedom here as scum and is absolutely taking advantage of it, which is why I've pushed for him to give more conclusions.

In contrast, even if he's been able to justify them, Spartan's reads have been really,

really

off the mark. I get why he townreads floo in a vacuum now, but me/quiet have given that same level of driving content and good textured analysis. flow trap hasn't given as much, and it's unclear if it's because he's scum, because that's just his personality, or both, but what he has given has been

fine

and the question on flow trap is really just if he's sitting waiting for Spartan to misvote or waiting to push Spartan in 3 way. We've seen flow trap's town game, it does look like this, and he's put in a ton more effort this game.

Like I concur, I think Spartan is scum and it's really up to him to come through and powertown for us here, because flow trap as scum can just sit and either wait for him to misvote, or just bus floo and get Spartan in three way.

[Prism]

Since that's more to quiet:

Spartan, I understand you've been dealing with some difficulties irl, and it's really hard to do all the things at once. I really appreciate the wall on floo, and I hope you got to check out my response in 1881. I get why you think floo is town in a vacuum: But me and quiet both have done similar and way more. I think floo's day today is worth checking out and thinking about. The wall to me was AtE and the rest was very disingenuous.

I understand that you're not sold on me town at the moment, but assuming you get there, this will not be enough for us to win the game: you really need to come out swinging today. The correct way to punish flow trap sitting around waiting is to be engaged and work through things. I do not believe quiet is scum, but you run into a similar issue here: If quiet is scum, he is completely running the game atm.

Let me know what you need from me and how to help you succeed

[Prism]

in a prism dead world, which is way more likely
{quiet, flow, spartan}

great, sounds like hell, I hate it.

I pictured myself in this three way and while neither are playing badly by any means I am pretty sure this ends with me having some sort of medical emergency

[Prism]

I mean, it's kinda redundant now, but I was REALLY hoping that people would chime in with regards to your slot early today when I was venting my own paranoia about you, or comment on my "so does everyone purport to TR Prism?" post. Neither got traction, I was hoping to have everyone else lock in their reads on you as a way to help sort.

welcome to the world of dirty scum fencesitters

again flow trap townleaning me verbally is nice but given that we are a spartan vote away from losing in that world i am feeling it now mr. krabs

[Prism]

So I have touched on this a few times but yes, I 100% agree, it is extremely weird to do that over settling for something more lukewarm/in the middle.

...That said the end of Spartan's wall today left open the idea of floo being scum/potentially bussing, lmao

The other thing that bothered me was Spartan open wagonfishing about me to floo but now that floo is confirmed scum I feel like it's either genuine or an arbitrary SvS interaction

Kill definitely makes more sense for flow trap but I don't think it's awful for Spartan either, especially since they do get the "but I was pushing fairy!" argument even though floo scum would find it very difficult to get that vote through. Fairy was also going back and forth on Spartan all day, with some pretty nuanced SR reasons, whereas his flow trap push was kind of more "I'm tired of this shit"

[Prism]

flow trap, do you think quiet can be scum at all?

Like my concern here is you're again kind of just hanging out. I'm in favor of you voting before quiet/Spartan primarily because it forces you to take a stance rather than be more reactive. Simultaneously, we can have both worlds, which is

literally easier for you in 3 way as town

. This would also be a shitton easier on my blood pressure if you just powertowned here.

In the grand scheme of things, what do you think is causing you trouble, and what can I do to help?

[Prism]

I am glad floo is very active in sorting, getting reads, and persuading town players to vote with him, and is ABSOLUTELY NOT just sitting around doing nothing hoping someone misvotes and trying to give as little as possible way for 3 way

[Prism]

I'll be back home in probably like ~2/3 hours, super glad to see you around Spartan, and definitely around to talk when I get in

[Prism]

Good timing, I'm working on posts atm so give me a sec and I'll circle back.

[Prism]

I mildly suspect Prism/Quiet/FaC for that NK. FaC seemed new and therefore could’ve eaten the person that suspected them most. Prism’s has already been retracted previously in part 4.

I didn't see this, is it in 1787?

I looked at the 1050s with floo/Spartan and it's basically just...them giving brief back/forth on Frederick, probably some of the lowest effort posting Spartan has had all game. Asking about me was again ??? and coming after the brief Frederick discussion seems like arbitrary SvS discussion about third parties rather than legitimate sorting, especially given that this is right at day start. Might look at their Day 1 interactions in a bit to see how many there were. Spartan is disagreeing with floo so much and still coming out hard town on them is interesting.

Re: The quiet stuff yeah, I did not like the safebet slot at all, so quiet had to put in some work to get me to come around....and still does sometimes, lmao, though I think we're finished now. I hope.

Finally I also definitely agree that Spartan hasn't really held himself to the same standard w/ interrogating his reads against the reads of others, see: the post interrogating quiet about his townreads vs. how much of it he had justified on floo at the time. He's been able to justify it in a vacuum now, but it's still retrospective and it's not clear how the other slots fit into this puzzle.

[Prism]

For Spartan, you're saying now that you can see and quiet as town now, even over floo. I've said a lot about why I think this is the case and quiet has gone in some depth too.

Can you explain what's made you lean back the other way towards townreading me? I ask because I've said that I've done the same thing w/r/t quality of analysis and such, but that's different than you working through it. Have you reread my posts at all-what did you think?

On a smaller note, can you elaborate on the two teams you're eliminating with me/flow trap and floo/quiet? I don't think you're wrong, but I'm really curious as to why me/flow trap isn't viable to you while me/quiet is.

[Prism]

Is there absolutely anything in the world I can do to make this decision easier tmmrw? Because I am very much not looking forward to it. It's starting to look like I might be in the hot seat.

was really hoping one of you would sus me more and turn it into a 1v1 in that direction.

Prism, would you and I giving strong polarized opinions just result in wifom?

I think both slots just said they leaned the other was scum over you but if feeling in the hot seat helps you sort I support it. Unless you mean "hot seat" as in the hammering party but the question made me think the opposite.

I think I'm likely getting shot just because...voted mafia in 5 way over doing nothing or pushing flow trap/Spartan, but if you're wondering if you'll get shot over me, given that we're leaning the same way, it's fundamentally going to be more about who they think they can persuade/what pairing has the highest chance of being a dysfunctional mess. I would say to keep in mind that persuasion doesn't have to be active, sometimes doing nothing is the best option (as a hypothetical scum flow trap has shown D2/D3)

Given that we're both leaning the same way right now I'm not sure what you're suggesting with the polarized opinions to begin with outside of us just arbitrarily taking stances and hiding real thoughts which I am not a fan of, entire point of keeping the day going atm is to be able to dialogue over just speedrunning to Day 4.

Also if neither of us get nightkilled, oh boy, please do not. Or do.

[Prism]

flow trap, do you think quiet can be scum at all?

So if you don't really want to shoot ideas by me the next 2/3 days, I don't think I can really force you, but I think it's worth considering that the chance of me being around tomorrow to run ideas by is very slim.

I'm glad to see you be right, and am again proud of the level of analysis you've shown today and hope you keep it up tomorrow. If the 10% starts seeming more likely to you, let me know if there's any way for me to help.

[Prism]

If it's not obvious my current thoughts on Spartan are too little, too late. It's great that he leans floo now but the "eh maybe I can vote there" and "okay yeah you are just as content rich" does not inspire a ton of confidence. The bulk of his read was about the quality/level of analysis, and he's right that floo had it, and he's right that me/quiet had it...but me/quiet were not top TRs Day 2.

[Prism]

So I'm actually starting to favor ending the day earlier. This is largely just because consensus is universal and I'd rather go for it before anyone changes, and partially because I've gotten most of what I wanted at this point and feel comfortable saying I think it's Spartan. I'm also not really going to be around as much tomorrow except maybe really early/really late, and I don't want deadline scramble take 2, and while I am having a lot of fun when I'm here...I do not know if I can take spending 3+ hours on this game for 3 more nights running in circles, and I want a break/my life back lmao

My checklist before I want the day ending is basically:

-flow trap to finish his notes
-Spartan answer about why I'm town
-I want to more explicitly track flow trap's reads, which is super difficult but I need to bite the bullet. Spartan's are pretty straightforward and he doesn't do much changing, the issue is more in what's not there (floo explanation, good read on me/quiet)
-Probably going to reread quiet one more time because I'm a masochist
-Answer any questions/give feedback on anything anyone else has

[Prism]

hot

I mean we could do it now with Prism and Floo, it would also catch Spartan off guard

Granted it would also catch you off guard

I take it you agree quiet is town, then?

[Prism]

I've got to run and grab food but I'll be back in a bit

[Prism]

I am fucking stupid lmao ignore that flow trap I am sorry

[Prism]

I'm definitely leaning Spartan who is a SR over you who is a NR

I think both slots just said they leaned the other was scum over you

I take it you agree quiet is town, then?

????????

[Prism]

I mean if you would like to talk about what's keeping that slot null for you, I'd be down!

Do you find it generally town but have certain hangups, or do you have it just hardnull, not very town, etc.?

[Prism]

I can try and track through the walls to see what you're talking about specifically, but I would generally agree with that.

His shift on floo Day 2 was unfortunate but he gave a good explanation. It doesn't change the fact that it

happened

, and it can be after the fact but like...his explanation is good. His reads have been good. He hasn't exactly been stubborn in pushing bad votes through or pushing bad reads. The worst parts of this slot to me all came from safebet.

In contrast, he's had some real +town moments between backing off of Salsabil, I don't think anyone else liked his positioning around Enchant but I did-it only made sense to go that hard for like 5/6 pages if he was bussing and needed the credit-and he could be leveraging the paranoia card a lot more than he has today. He's not even remotely trying to take advantage of it. I suppose if the gameplan is leave it to y'all to mess up then sure but again, super speculative/working in reverse.

He's also done a lot more than just suck up to me, he's taken a lot of my approach and started applying it in his own way.

[Prism]

There is a lot to say to this but first up, why not start from where you left off last time?

IDK why you think realizing that the pattern of players unlikely to be lynched dying, instead of more controversial players who would be more risky to the scumteam, is suddenly calling you scum.

Again, for the 10th time, please explain why fairy was unlikely to be voted if I, the person who actually townread/defended them, am mafia and you, the person shoving them all game, are town.

[Prism]

You going to follow up by talking to any individual players to get try and sell them, or are you just going to cast the global AtE and dip for 2 more days?

[Prism]

The kill might have put you under a little more suspicion, you got a problem with that? Why do you have to shut off discussion about yourself being scum, rather than working through why fairy died instead of a fearkill? Why do you take such a negative tone with it when it is a completely normal observation for anyone to have? It is a NAI post, if I can evaluate my own posts.

1. I started out the day puzzling through the kill and whether I should reconsider you because I expected a quiet shot before eventually reverse engineering it and realizing the answer was absolutely fuckin not
2. You literally have dodged justifying how that statement about shooting widely townread players (Fairy) makes any sense FYPOV as town like 4x now
3. You openly baited the Salsabil slot into getting more mad so you could push her, you opened with a general statement that was clearly targeted at me w/ the 'aggressive, confident' garbage, and now you're crying that I'm too negative because I demanded you justify your garbage.

floo is

shocked

that I am playing aggressively at a scumread that repeatedly refuses to answer basic questions, and is now confirmed scum to me.

If you're upset that the fairy kill didn't actually do shit for you, which is probably why the only substantial comments you've made today are about the nightkill, a bunch of garbage AtE, and nothing about the 3 non-Prism players actively sorting you, maybe you should have shot me instead.

[Prism]

Alright, well, that's enough of that.

It's just hilarious that Quiet is literally begging floo to talk to him, floo supposedly thinks he's town, floo goes "Sorry, globally targeted AtE wall and no real thoughts on specific players other than saying Spartan should vote first, see you in another 48 hours"

[Prism]

floo's last sentence implies he thinks Spartan still townreads him, which suggests he's not really reading Spartan's posts anymore.
I don't if that's NAI being that checked out completely or if floo isn't reading his partner's posts specifically. Maybe he knows and just does it for the WIFOM AtE.

This is just...such a dysfunctional team atm if it is floo/Spartan. I have no idea what they expected or wanted to happen today but I get the feeling this is not it.

[Prism]

I'm going to call it a night but checklist

-Track flow trap progressions
-Go over Spartan/hopefully get more out of him
-Maybe meta Spartan

I'll try to make time early in the morning but if not I'll swing by later in the night

[Prism]

@floo, I've got the least for you.

Prism, I've got the least to say to you right now.

Shit pump the brakes quiet is playing both sides of the fence, DEFCON 5

Yeah I'm not asleep yet don't judge me

[Prism]

I agree, here's a better one imo

For Spartan, you're saying now that you can see and quiet as town now, even over floo. I've said a lot about why I think this is the case and quiet has gone in some depth too.

Can you explain what's made you lean back the other way towards townreading me? I ask because I've said that I've done the same thing w/r/t quality of analysis and such, but that's different than you working through it. Have you reread my posts at all-what did you think?

On a smaller note, can you elaborate on the two teams you're eliminating with me/flow trap and floo/quiet? I don't think you're wrong, but I'm really curious as to why me/flow trap isn't viable to you while me/quiet is.

[Prism]

Will be around in about ~2 hours if anything has anything they want to run by me, we'll see how long I can hold up

[Prism]

Idk I feel like a Spartan/floo team could have targeted Flow Trap for a miselim today after killing you.
That seems like the best play. The game was set up for that. Get one of fairy, you, or me to vote them. It’s plausible.

Why did they choose to go at you? Did you just take that choice away by not dropping floo? Did floo not expect that?.

I think it's worth reviewing the start of the day.

Spartan was noticeably not happy I was townreading you, and he was still pushing flow trap. That makes sense for Spartan as town but it fits with your question.

floo's first post, which shaded me while simultaneously banking on NK spec, was way after I posted things like 1676.

I don't think they expected me to come out of the gate on a rampage, which is understandable given how deferential I was yesterday, but I fucking hate losing. Hell no was I going to sit back and go "idk maybe flow trap?" again

Finally, while I feel bad for them if this is the case...it's pretty clear that Spartan has not been able to put the time and effort he might have wanted into today in order to do something more forceful. He's here in spurts but it's deeply frustrating to try and break up an actively posting townbloc when you have stuff going on irl. If the plan was to push flow trap or bus if needed, it required Spartan to be here, and he just hasn't been able to deliver on that.

[Prism]

re: NK spec, I think a combination of killing me being obvious/hoping fairy would help both slots makes sense. Fairy shot helps floo because "I was pushing them!" (but were really going to struggle getting that through, hope is more on pushing flow trap-as I've been skeptical too, as have you at times, Fairy kill helps, and meanwhile Fairy did not townread floo and had me as locktown/willing to follow if needed). Fairy also kept going back and forth on Spartan.

I think it's easy to say in hindsight I'm the better shot but the knowledge of what actually happened is not exactly available to them N3.

I don't really know who would even make sense with me as scum at this point. flow trap votes, I say I'm fine ending the day. You vote, game is over. You're not scum with me and anyone who suggests that is ??? wilding. Spartan is for some reason caving to my pressure, when he's under no pressure as scum with me, he just has to push me/AFK vote me, blitzing if you misvote and pushing flow trap in 3 way if you don't. floo laying down for the bus is

somehow

the most plausible but is...not the case.