TM 2021 Large Normal: OEIS Mafia (Part Two Is Out)

[OkaPoka]

well hello there!

[OkaPoka]

How come you oprwd ro vote the one of the two that had no votes on them?

Can you translate this for this old woman?

"how come you opted to vote the worst instead of dgb seeing as the worst had no votes while dgb had two?"

[OkaPoka]

im going to use mastina's catchup as a way to reread the thread so thank you mastina lol

[OkaPoka]

its lck you don't need to watch the first 30 minutes of ping pong

[OkaPoka]

never had the makings of a varsity athlete

[OkaPoka]

just fwiw mastina, when you catchup you should put a post number or a page number so we know what you are talking about

i assume you are posting this catchup publicly for us to read so

[OkaPoka]

overthinking the lhf argument and such isn't really worth it until xtoxm comes in a responds to the wagon himself which i presume he will do when he shows up again

[OkaPoka]

that's the meanest thing ive ever seen you say ducky

[OkaPoka]

if you want to lmao

[OkaPoka]

mmk fair enough

but you did double down on the whole titus thing, are you sticking by your titus read for the same reasons?

[OkaPoka]

duck i hope your having fun because you are the last bastion of combined sanity, transparency, and activity

[OkaPoka]

we should def get xtoxm to l1 and intent because if that's the response we get after 48 hours of radio silence then i mean cmon

playing as a lhf on purpose would also make no sense in a large normal game that starts on evens

[OkaPoka]

ythan you've been gone for 48 hours as while and things have transpired what are your takes ?

[OkaPoka]

I do not understand the wagon on xtoxm nor how it has come about. Could've missed reasoning, but don't think I have? Composition feels like it sucks, would need a VC to confirm but I've seen some names I don't like on it.

This got ignored at the time but should get an explanation

again the xtoxm wagon is purely because xtoxm

1) had a townread on titus for townreading iv for scumreading her
2) but this reasoning was demonstrably false because titus had townread iv before iv scumread her
3) and xtoxm rather than backing up, doubled down on a faulty premise and also included auro backing himself up

edit: for reasons apparently unrelated to the IV read, but backing up the titus townread

so the argument is xtoxm and auro have decided that they want to townread titus (don't know why) and invented a reason as to why.

me n the worst are voting xtoxm presumably for this reason because it was us two who were quesitoning xtoxm. hercule mentioned xtoxm was in the lhf null scum poe. idk for others.

I am soliciting comments on this case / why they aren't voting/pressuring the xtoxm slot from the following people:

@Ythan @Hopkirk @Winterflakes @IV

sidenote: winterflakes is strangely quiet on xtoxm

[OkaPoka]

Checking up on Xtoxm is my next to do in this game I just haven't gotten around to it.

fair enough

[OkaPoka]

L-2 I believe

[OkaPoka]

L1 babeee

[OkaPoka]

my only hitch with lolhammering right now is that winterflakes has managed to post about every other significant wagon except xtoxm which he has dodged entirely

but that's also something we can begin with tomorrow

[OkaPoka]

inb4 it was a hammer post with fancy fonts and highlights

[OkaPoka]

why did you vote xtoxm in the first place?

[OkaPoka]

dont really get why abr would make the most recent comment then like why lol

[OkaPoka]

if this was a smaller game i might vibe check and then speedwagon abr

[OkaPoka]

lets vibecheck the thread and see if we want to consider a lol swap onto abr because i feel like that was a scumclaim

[OkaPoka]

{okapoka, dannflor} are currently vibers

any other vibers?

[OkaPoka]

1 + 3 + 1 = 5

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: abr

[OkaPoka]

xtoxm was at L-1 with intent

then abr comes in and tries to undermine the wagon? he makes a throwaway comment to stop a xtoxm flip? its not a substantive comment its literally a throwaway comment.

i mean that's a pretty bad in my eyes if that's how you defend the wagon but abr has been 1) on the xtoxm wagon 2) defended flipping xtoxm himself 3) xtoxm has not really done anything that should reasonably change why abr was for flipping xtoxm so in conclusion why is abr playing both sides (in a very non committal fashion mind you)


xtoxm doesn't deserve to be unvoted per se but i think abr scumclaimed so the vibe checks is if other people agree yeah that was a scumclaim maybe we do abr today

[OkaPoka]

yes by nature of the fact that town outnumbers scum, most flips are probably on town but I don't run around commenting on every wagon oh yeah by the way this is most likely town ?wtf?

[OkaPoka]

xtoxm was at L-1 with intent

then abr comes in and tries to undermine the wagon? he makes a throwaway comment to stop a xtoxm flip? its not a substantive comment its literally a throwaway comment.

i mean that's a pretty bad in my eyes if that's how you defend the wagon but abr has been 1) on the xtoxm wagon 2) defended flipping xtoxm himself 3) xtoxm has not really done anything that should reasonably change why abr was for flipping xtoxm so in conclusion why is abr playing both sides (in a very non committal fashion mind you)


xtoxm doesn't deserve to be unvoted per se but i think abr scumclaimed so the vibe checks is if other people agree yeah that was a scumclaim maybe we do abr today

I mean, yes, that could be true, but also I don't think there's necessarily intent to stop the wagon there? I don't think it's a scumclaim de facto. How is that post going to change anything? If anything, if ABR is scum, I think they realized xtoxm was about to be hammered and wanted to look better post-flip. But I'm not particularly sold on it.

don't know if abr actually *intended* on stopping an xtoxm wagon but at the very least he wants us to think he's trying to stop an xtoxm wagon for whatever reasons which doesn't make sense if abr is town. abr has defended flipping xtoxm earlier in the day and nothing xtoxm has done should have changed that opinion, and its not like abr is intent on working with others to find a better wagon. its just... there

[OkaPoka]

Here's my take on xtoxm and why I think he's null

You have to put yourself in a suspension of disbelief that xtoxm (along with his partners) see he's at E-2 whatever and not have some sort of reaction to it? If that's a gameplan and he's just going down for the towncred, who the hell is bussing him? There is slanker scum, I'm not denying that possibility. It's just that I think even the most feeble scum could see the town rallying to kill him and at least want to do some FUD before they're out the door

I would like this answered from the 'xtoxm is obvscum' crowd

The wagon dissipated but I'm not letting this go, people

The logic worst and I have come up with basically means he got caught in a logical trap and doubled down on his logical misgivings which means he really doesn't have an out because he is so clearly and provably wrong, he can't refute it with "no I'm actually correct." Instead his angle was to address the admittedly weaker parts of the case and hopefully sidestep it that way, which doesn't necessarily imply scum are bussing him, they might've just dumped him and realized it's a lost cause. I really do not know how xtoxm can escape the hole he has dug specifically because he has doubled down, but I do think his doubling down in spite of me literally showing him why he was wrong meant that he was prioritizing showing of a Titus townread rather than coming to one naturally for whatever reasons.

But it is d1 and flipping scum on d1 is a hard thing, so I mean I can be "confident" in the same way I can be "confident" the Lakers are going to win the championship one game into the NBA season.

[OkaPoka]

And there has been plenty of times where scum has been 'caught' but town loses momentum and interest and they slip by even though they were 'caught'. I mean it could be scum's best bet just to let things play out naturally and hopefully xtoxm can cruise as long as possible.

In fact I've literally been scum who was 'caught' in a game where my elimination meant it was over and basically let things play out by being passive because I thought it was over, and then townies flaked and I cheesed a few miselims and won.

pedit: he can't say i made a mistake because he made a mistake -> his mistake was pointed out to him -> he doubled down on his mistake and said no I'm correct -> his doubling down again was provably a mistake

I don't know how you backtrack of a mistake you have doubled down on and seen proof it was wrong. unless of course he wants to admit he didn't read titus' post, which then we go back to square 1, he wants a titus town read and looked for reasons for it.

i guess he can say i made a mistake but if he's scum he's probably playing damage control which is what the "auro" post is. addressing the not main point of the post and some side stuff and disappearing again

[OkaPoka]

It's a shit prediction because you are road-not-taken-ing.

We flip the "deepwolf" d1 and instead someone else will play the deepwolf on d3-5. If he's town then no shit we misread things. In hindsight, the signs of the truth will be much more obvious of course welcome to human nature. Proof? Why isn't there one way to analyze English literature? Because the author is dead and you can't ask them for the right answer, so you will have great minds come together and have different thoughts. But when we analyze history, even the dumbest historians can mainly agree that x,y,z contributed to the fall of Rome. Romans were smart why couldn't they prevent their falls if these dumbasses can agree? Because hindsight is meaningless for today.

That's the nature of these type of games.

[OkaPoka]

all this flashwagon hopping and dying on low content slots is bizarre and making me nauseous

I don’t have anything more to add other than that, is this like how we’re supposed to play larges or something

well what don't you get about the abr case?

[OkaPoka]

i think there are enough people who want either xtoxm or abr today, its a matter of preference

[OkaPoka]

or in another words we are going to probably deliberate and then reconsolidate onto one of them

[OkaPoka]

or in another words we are going to probably deliberate and then reconsolidate onto one of them

I think I would rather have a split than a consolidation for more information

i don't really know how much info we would get because the people who want abr and the people who want xtoxm are largely overlapping circles

[OkaPoka]

xtoxm definitely was lurky in the team mafia normal no? @duck i know you were in that game

[OkaPoka]

i think him lurking is NAI at best

[OkaPoka]

sorry mastina but you need to catchup because background knowledge is kinda essential to understanding why we are voting abr or xtoxm

[OkaPoka]

mastina makes sense if you ignore the things that happened this game

i get she wants to give her thoughts but like... she needs to be up to speed and its showing

[OkaPoka]

what? my reasons for voting xtoxm are because he doubled down on a logical fallacy and im extrapolating that to mean he's inventing reads

and abr vote is because he was playing both sides and sowing paranoia without substance

to sum it up

[OkaPoka]

I do not understand the wagon on xtoxm nor how it has come about. Could've missed reasoning, but don't think I have? Composition feels like it sucks, would need a VC to confirm but I've seen some names I don't like on it.

This got ignored at the time but should get an explanation

again the xtoxm wagon is purely because xtoxm

1) had a townread on titus for townreading iv for scumreading her
2) but this reasoning was demonstrably false because titus had townread iv before iv scumread her
3) and xtoxm rather than backing up, doubled down on a faulty premise and also included auro backing himself up


so the argument is xtoxm and auro have decided that they want to townread titus (don't know why) and invented a reason as to why.

me n the worst are voting xtoxm presumably for this reason because it was us two who were quesitoning xtoxm. hercule mentioned xtoxm was in the lhf null scum poe. idk for others.

read this mastina

I've seen so many of these end with a townflip.

why did you vote xtoxm in the first place?

abr, why is xtoxm scum

and for brownie points why is he a better flip than any other flip

As far as I'm concerned he's done little and less to help the town. Spending most of the day not voting is innacptable, and his iso is sparse and underwhelming. Not a slot I'd be sorry to see go.

how am i meant to decide between eliminating xtoxm, eliminating abr, and policying hercule
this game is impossible

It's easy, one is at L-2 and the other two aren't.

and this sorry i dont have analysis here

[OkaPoka]

please note you can ignore the auro part

[OkaPoka]

second one on abr might be a little hard without the context of how abr has been playing and how xtoxm has been playing and thus how they would progress (or not progress) but hopefully its a jump off point

[OkaPoka]

literally read the next like three posts

[OkaPoka]

like seriously

[OkaPoka]

yes winter flakes is in everyone's poe as well

[OkaPoka]

well mastina I can lead a camel to water but I can't get it to drink can I

[OkaPoka]

again multitasking which is why this took so long

Hopkirk is close to a townread but he is not at the level of unwnd or hercule for me. i get the feeling he's just a good player which makes me paranoid of his scumrange. honestly my eyes glaze over his posting (potentially not ideal) but the vibe I get is that it looks like he's being helpful and engaging everyone in an effort to understand what's going on. if he's establishing himself to push an agenda i have a feeling we'll see it later but im very okay having this slot around for now.

JacksonVirgo - mostly a tonal read. i don't love 526 or 533 but the posts i thought were +town are: 534, 597, 598, 599, 647, 648. it's hard to explain it beyond just being openly frustrated and utterly not giving a shit about his thread perception which i have found in practice (in my anecdotal experience) to be a towntell for him.

A50 - this is like exactly the same as A50 in this one towngame we played and not at all how he played in this scumgame we did (granted he replaced in, which is different). there are moments like 112, 116, 619, 622 that ring eerily similar. "but it's just A50's playstyle!" you might say. okay sure maybe, that's why he's one of my weaker townleans i guess. also 737 is a really weird thing to post as scum but i obliged him since someone on my team thinks he can read him ok.

Xtoxm - unprompted and unpostury/interesting notes from Auro are good, i liked 642 for example. don't see an agenda from this slot, not postury, takes are pretty reasonable. other people townreading them too despite lack of content quantity which feels good. weaker townlean probably

TW - ill likely be revisiting this a lot bc im paranoid. here's the reasoning i gave earlier

rn it's leantown i think with the engagement and with the hinting on Datisi scumreading me so early (inside thing where town!Datisi has tunneled early town!me for two games in a row, i like that Datisi gave the read and the worst mentioned it unprompted). his entrance felt forced but on reread it's not bad. could be some confbiasing going on there so im conflicted, idk, im gonna just like worsty be a slow burn read for me.

and i think with your recent interaction with me im townreading you even more. i think your disengagement from this game is fine in the context of being busy and maybe even +town in a vacuum. also i think it's easy for scum!you to try and pocket me and you've done everything but engage with me and pocket me.

I'm ok adding IV to my townblock

i dont think that's how townblocks work

iv is voting you

Haven't got there yet, but I'm ok with putting him in my never eliminate pile.

literally three posts down

like

not talking to you until you catchup because my sanity is gone

[OkaPoka]

again multitasking which is why this took so long

Hopkirk is close to a townread but he is not at the level of unwnd or hercule for me. i get the feeling he's just a good player which makes me paranoid of his scumrange. honestly my eyes glaze over his posting (potentially not ideal) but the vibe I get is that it looks like he's being helpful and engaging everyone in an effort to understand what's going on. if he's establishing himself to push an agenda i have a feeling we'll see it later but im very okay having this slot around for now.

JacksonVirgo - mostly a tonal read. i don't love 526 or 533 but the posts i thought were +town are: 534, 597, 598, 599, 647, 648. it's hard to explain it beyond just being openly frustrated and utterly not giving a shit about his thread perception which i have found in practice (in my anecdotal experience) to be a towntell for him.

A50 - this is like exactly the same as A50 in this one towngame we played and not at all how he played in this scumgame we did (granted he replaced in, which is different). there are moments like 112, 116, 619, 622 that ring eerily similar. "but it's just A50's playstyle!" you might say. okay sure maybe, that's why he's one of my weaker townleans i guess. also 737 is a really weird thing to post as scum but i obliged him since someone on my team thinks he can read him ok.

Xtoxm - unprompted and unpostury/interesting notes from Auro are good, i liked 642 for example. don't see an agenda from this slot, not postury, takes are pretty reasonable. other people townreading them too despite lack of content quantity which feels good. weaker townlean probably

TW - ill likely be revisiting this a lot bc im paranoid. here's the reasoning i gave earlier

rn it's leantown i think with the engagement and with the hinting on Datisi scumreading me so early (inside thing where town!Datisi has tunneled early town!me for two games in a row, i like that Datisi gave the read and the worst mentioned it unprompted). his entrance felt forced but on reread it's not bad. could be some confbiasing going on there so im conflicted, idk, im gonna just like worsty be a slow burn read for me.

and i think with your recent interaction with me im townreading you even more. i think your disengagement from this game is fine in the context of being busy and maybe even +town in a vacuum. also i think it's easy for scum!you to try and pocket me and you've done everything but engage with me and pocket me.

I'm ok adding IV to my townblock

i dont think that's how townblocks work

iv is voting you

Haven't got there yet, but I'm ok with putting him in my never eliminate pile.

now since you couldnt be assed to scroll three posts down ill specify the important thing for you

Haven't got there yet,

[OkaPoka]

hmm maybe that was too vague

(I, Titus) Haven't got there (the part where IV votes me) yet,

[OkaPoka]

again multitasking which is why this took so long

Hopkirk is close to a townread but he is not at the level of unwnd or hercule for me. i get the feeling he's just a good player which makes me paranoid of his scumrange. honestly my eyes glaze over his posting (potentially not ideal) but the vibe I get is that it looks like he's being helpful and engaging everyone in an effort to understand what's going on. if he's establishing himself to push an agenda i have a feeling we'll see it later but im very okay having this slot around for now.

JacksonVirgo - mostly a tonal read. i don't love 526 or 533 but the posts i thought were +town are: 534, 597, 598, 599, 647, 648. it's hard to explain it beyond just being openly frustrated and utterly not giving a shit about his thread perception which i have found in practice (in my anecdotal experience) to be a towntell for him.

A50 - this is like exactly the same as A50 in this one towngame we played and not at all how he played in this scumgame we did (granted he replaced in, which is different). there are moments like 112, 116, 619, 622 that ring eerily similar. "but it's just A50's playstyle!" you might say. okay sure maybe, that's why he's one of my weaker townleans i guess. also 737 is a really weird thing to post as scum but i obliged him since someone on my team thinks he can read him ok.

Xtoxm - unprompted and unpostury/interesting notes from Auro are good, i liked 642 for example. don't see an agenda from this slot, not postury, takes are pretty reasonable. other people townreading them too despite lack of content quantity which feels good. weaker townlean probably

TW - ill likely be revisiting this a lot bc im paranoid. here's the reasoning i gave earlier

rn it's leantown i think with the engagement and with the hinting on Datisi scumreading me so early (inside thing where town!Datisi has tunneled early town!me for two games in a row, i like that Datisi gave the read and the worst mentioned it unprompted). his entrance felt forced but on reread it's not bad. could be some confbiasing going on there so im conflicted, idk, im gonna just like worsty be a slow burn read for me.

and i think with your recent interaction with me im townreading you even more. i think your disengagement from this game is fine in the context of being busy and maybe even +town in a vacuum. also i think it's easy for scum!you to try and pocket me and you've done everything but engage with me and pocket me.

I'm ok adding IV to my townblock

i dont think that's how townblocks work

iv is voting you

Haven't got there yet, but I'm ok with putting him in my never eliminate pile.

literally three posts down

like

not talking to you until you catchup because my sanity is gone

I don't see what you're trying to say; near as I can tell, you're proving your case wrong?

Your case is that Xtoxm said he was townreading Titus for townreading IV while IV was scumreading Titus; you say that runs into a chronology problem, of IV's scumread coming AFTER Titus's townread.

Except, IV's scumread came BEFORE Titus's townread, and therefore Xtoxm's reason doesn't have a chronology problem.

You've said Xtoxm townread Titus because Titus townread IV after IV scumread Titus, and that Xtoxm's townread reasoning was made up because IV's scumread on Titus came after Titus's townread.

Except...IV's scumread on Titus did indeed come before Titus's townread on IV, so Xtoxm townreading Titus for townreading IV's scumread of her...

...Doesn't actually run into a chronology problem...

...And thus, has no reason to be faked.

are you being daft on purpose ?

[OkaPoka]

all yours ducky i literally cannot interact with mastina because time is no longer linear

[OkaPoka]

jesus christ do I have to explain the flow of time works

[OkaPoka]

you know what instead of interacting with mastina

raise your hand if you agree with mastina's interpretation of time and events, if you raise your hand I'll interact with you instead

[OkaPoka]

Oka do you feel like mastina is engaging you in good faith?

no but that's not AI for her

[OkaPoka]

someone translate mastina's posts for me i cant look at them

[OkaPoka]

Oka do you feel like mastina is engaging you in good faith?

no but that's not AI for her

Let's ignore meta because meta is trash.

Do you see no benefit to scum using bad faith arguments as a stalling tactic to avoid having to read back on the thread to gain context which could shatter their "reads"?

mastina is scumsiding by cluttering the thread with takes that aren't aligned with reality yes it's beneficial for scum but also it doesn't mean she's scum

anyways i read mastina's post unfortunately

mastina can graduate to point 3 and 4 now

[OkaPoka]

or agar for you:

if I voted mastina right now it would be because I can't find a good scum flip and want to go for policy, but i have a couple reads i want to flip so yeah

[OkaPoka]

mastina is scumsiding by cluttering the thread with takes that aren't aligned with reality yes it's beneficial for scum but also it doesn't mean she's scum

...

...


...



Y'know what?

I'm just gonna go raid and play WoW because I can't get anywhere with this fucking game and it's pissing me off.

im sorry agar im pissed off too and in my younger years id be like yeah lets kill mastina but mastina is mastina so i will probably need more time to parse that slot

[OkaPoka]

points 3 and 4 mastina, points 3 and 4

[OkaPoka]

like mastina think critically about why people haven't flipped to agree with you even though you are posting mega walls with logical steps

you are missing massive amounts of context that everyone else has, stop arguing with me until you've read up

[OkaPoka]

how has winterflakes managed to not talk xtoxm read still

he has gone from 0 to 8 xtoxm mentions in his iso and literally all of them don't actually have to do with xtoxm

pedit: no you are not alone cephrir although I am partially to blame because I keep interacting with mastina thinking that I can give her salvation

[OkaPoka]

i suppose going from townbloc -> never eliminate is not a downgrade but in fact, an upgrade? I mean what.

like read the exchange, xtoxm says he trs titus for tring iv scumreading her

proven that he is wrong, titus is not tring iv for scumreading her

he responds, ACTUALLY ITS BECAUSE SHE STRENGTHENED HER TOWNREAD ON IV FOR SCUMREADING HER

when clearly, townbloc -> never eliminate is not a strengthened read? unless you are willing to cut loose your townbloc, in which case lmao


I have three flips I want to do today

abr > xtomx >> winter flakes

[OkaPoka]

i suppose going from townbloc -> never eliminate is not a downgrade but in fact, an upgrade? I mean what.

if this were an upgrade would the whole case fall apart

i can almost see it in a void but i feel like the tone of titus' post indicated otherwise

yeah i mean at any time xtoxm could've shown up and been like i interpreted never eliminate as a strengthening, my bad, the word never was there and there was some misasocciations

which makes sense because never is a strong word to use, and if he responded quicker i mean it could've been resolved

he clearly has not done that though, because the theory goes that that's not what happened, it wasn't about word associations, so he can't explain why he messed up

[OkaPoka]

it definitely has many, many flaws and im not even voting xtoxm right now but mastina is annoying me and pointing out things that aren't flaws

[OkaPoka]

yeah I have no clue why so much effort is put into defending xtoxm when at best he's null, if you don't want his flip you should really be casing other people

[OkaPoka]

I would give more credit to oka's "mastina is being mastina" but frankly I'm tired of every scumlean I have being discredited by meta. I really can't be fucked on trying to metaread strangers in an 18 person day one. If you're scummy you're scummy.

not saying mastina is town meta, just saying that she does this as both alignments, but if you think its scummy im not going to stop you, im just going to take more time to make a thought on it

...Who is defending xtoxm besides like mastina?

i was somewhat including abr when i mentioned people who didn't want xtoxm flipped

[OkaPoka]

mastina actually could be scum because usually she's frustrating in "productive" manners in the sense that she's trying to run someone up while doing so

this one could just be a game where mastina is literally trying to blow this game up and make problems appear

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: xtoxm

[OkaPoka]

how does everyone feel on winter flake btw? i want to kill that slot a lot too

[OkaPoka]

did we really just full circle this over the course of like 8 hours

[OkaPoka]

man i wish team mafia had dance - imagine how nuts that game would be

[OkaPoka]

man i wish team mafia had dance - imagine how nuts that game would be

Probably too town sided but it would be a blast

dance but 4 scum and NO IC

[OkaPoka]

how does everyone feel on winter flake btw? i want to kill that slot a lot too

"hey guys i'm not sure how this slot is perceived and i dont wanna push him myself buuuuuut if i can get support and not get solely blamed for when he flips green, i'd really appreciate it."

ok BUDDY

no im perfectly aware i have enough people who have you in the PoE that I could try and push you and have a reasonable chance of getting you flipped

but its always worth vibe checking to see if anyone is really opinionated on you because the conversation is dominated by others

[OkaPoka]

I do not understand the wagon on xtoxm nor how it has come about. Could've missed reasoning, but don't think I have? Composition feels like it sucks, would need a VC to confirm but I've seen some names I don't like on it.

This got ignored at the time but should get an explanation

again the xtoxm wagon is purely because xtoxm

1) had a townread on titus for townreading iv for scumreading her
2) but this reasoning was demonstrably false because titus had townread iv before iv scumread her
3) and xtoxm rather than backing up, doubled down on a faulty premise and also included auro backing himself up

edit: for reasons apparently unrelated to the IV read, but backing up the titus townread

so the argument is xtoxm and auro have decided that they want to townread titus (don't know why) and invented a reason as to why.

me n the worst are voting xtoxm presumably for this reason because it was us two who were quesitoning xtoxm. hercule mentioned xtoxm was in the lhf null scum poe. idk for others.

I am soliciting comments on this case / why they aren't voting/pressuring the xtoxm slot from the following people:

@Ythan @Hopkirk @Winterflakes @IV

sidenote: winterflakes is strangely quiet on xtoxm

my only hitch with lolhammering right now is that winterflakes has managed to post about every other significant wagon except xtoxm which he has dodged entirely

but that's also something we can begin with tomorrow

yes winter flakes is in everyone's poe as well

how has winterflakes managed to not talk xtoxm read still

he has gone from 0 to 8 xtoxm mentions in his iso and literally all of them don't actually have to do with xtoxm

pedit: no you are not alone cephrir although I am partially to blame because I keep interacting with mastina thinking that I can give her salvation

i suppose going from townbloc -> never eliminate is not a downgrade but in fact, an upgrade? I mean what.

like read the exchange, xtoxm says he trs titus for tring iv scumreading her

proven that he is wrong, titus is not tring iv for scumreading her

he responds, ACTUALLY ITS BECAUSE SHE STRENGTHENED HER TOWNREAD ON IV FOR SCUMREADING HER

when clearly, townbloc -> never eliminate is not a strengthened read? unless you are willing to cut loose your townbloc, in which case lmao


I have three flips I want to do today

abr > xtomx >> winter flakes

how does everyone feel on winter flake btw? i want to kill that slot a lot too

that should be reading material for you and your team

[OkaPoka]

actually winter flakes is doing me a huge favor if you think 4 d about it so maybe he's super town for this

[OkaPoka]

its scummy regardless of how xtoxm flips is what i think, question is does it push you over the edge

[OkaPoka]

but its probably especially +scum equity for xtoxm scum whereas its slightly +scum equity if he's town

anyways xtoxm is dead night is coming remember folks d1 reads are d1 reads

[OkaPoka]

unlucky i guess

[OkaPoka]

be honest winter flakes have you actually read up on why people are voting xtoxm

[OkaPoka]

no i just looked at post count

the only other thing i think i paid attention to was mastina's defense of them at one point

well

you should spend the night catching up then

[OkaPoka]

i will i'm just trying to interact more real time atm because i can be pretty terrible at keeping my thoughts unjumbled when reading through a bunch of stuff that i've missed lmao

i find that talking to teammates about any posts that catches your eye helps if you a real time interacter like myself

[OkaPoka]

lmao looks like you need to read n catchup

maybe you can catchup with winter flakes and mastina, form a support group

[OkaPoka]

Duck was clearing being sarcastic the fuck?

[OkaPoka]

Did they make jester legal or something

[OkaPoka]

Vibe check who wants to.vote abr...

[OkaPoka]

Maybe time is a circle

[OkaPoka]

Flakes isnt a bad vote but at some point you put the foot down on jesters

[OkaPoka]

Him and xtoxm

We clearly have gripes and told them what they can do about it but time loops and they play into the gripes

[OkaPoka]

You tmiing?

[OkaPoka]

Lots of complaining but youve literally done nothing to make a counterwagon this game other than vote and whatever this is. You've had every opportunity to do a bit of casework and convincing and you've rejected it at every turn.

[OkaPoka]

You not having influence is entirely your own volition. You have still yet to explain why someone else is scum and should be voted.

[OkaPoka]

Hes literally complaining about sheeping and he turns around and expects us to sheep him onto people he refuses to explain why they should be voted like what

[OkaPoka]

You not having influence is entirely your own volition. You have still yet to explain why someone else is scum and should be voted.

I don't want influence. All I do is run people up and look at reactions. People who follow me subscribe to the same method of scumhunting. It doesn't ways work, sometimes it wastes time, and it will often out PRs who claim too early or sometimes result in a quickhammer on unclaimed PR. There's a fucking reason I am standing back and observing the wagons. 99% of this thread is NAI, people spouting off opinions IDGAF about and posturing like they have a clue because "Day 1".

I also run people up and look for reactions but also i understand that you need to set a bar and if the reaction fails you dont let go. Xtoxm cant clear the bar, hes either scum who hopes he can go too scummy to be scum or hes town that refuses to play, in team mafia. Either way rewarding that isnt correct.

[OkaPoka]

Going to be impossible to beat ythan with a cattleprod if we let go of xtoxm

[OkaPoka]

let's say we run up ythan

or winter flakes or literally anyone else that is ABR approved

what's to stop them doing the exact same thing xtoxm is doing now and oh well I guess they must be town time to go wagon everyone else for 8 days

not only this but if we drop xtoxm and i go around trying to build a wagon on ythan because ythan isn't really playing the game, everyone will be like well xtoxm is playing it less why we are moving? I'll have to respond either with some bullshit or the truth, pressure ythan and hope that he plays.

if ythan is scum or even town, understandably he is not actually under any pressure because at the end of the day he can ignore us and realize the wagon will collapse and we will regroup on xtoxm.

pressure can't exist for the sake of pressure, there must be a realistic chance that they can die. its why so often people misread scum for not flinching under pressure from early day wagons, because scum know that town are too scared to end days early and will dissolve for new things.

[OkaPoka]

let's say we run up ythan

or winter flakes or literally anyone else that is ABR approved

what's to stop them doing the exact same thing xtoxm is doing now and oh well I guess they must be town time to go wagon everyone else for 8 days

not only this but if we drop xtoxm and i go around trying to build a wagon on ythan because ythan isn't really playing the game, everyone will be like well xtoxm is playing it less why we are moving? I'll have to respond either with some bullshit or the truth, pressure ythan and hope that he plays.

if ythan is scum or even town, understandably he is not actually under any pressure because at the end of the day he can ignore us and realize the wagon will collapse and we will regroup on xtoxm.

pressure can't exist for the sake of pressure, there must be a realistic chance that they can die. its why so often people misread scum for not flinching under pressure from early day wagons, because scum know that town are too scared to end days early and will dissolve for new things.

Pressure always exists for the sake of pressure, this is mafia, human behavior is unpredictable and the chance of it going through always exists.

disagree and you should to

I've rolled scum at times and had wagons build on me and I could play it cool because I knew they weren't actually going to kill me. And then I got townread for it. I've "bussed" teammates in situations that would've lost me the game and gotten townread for it, because I knew it wouldn't follow through. Pressure is not pressure unless you are willing to pull the trigger. I think xtoxm is gambling on us dissolving on him with how he is playing this one out

[OkaPoka]

I'd be willing to put pressure on ythan if not for the fact that I've already undermined my ability to put pressure on ythan while xtoxm is alive.

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: ythan

ill indulge abr for a bit

going to peace out from the thread for a bit so i wont be here to unvote if this wagon does form up

[OkaPoka]

xtoxm and winterflakes are not necessarily unaligned

i think they have s/s equity

[OkaPoka]

i honestly think it's near impossible to form a legit alternative wagon to xtoxm and abr because creating a compelling day 1 case is incredibly hard and usually requires a mix of policy desire and hand wringing. but xtoxm and abr do have legitimate and compelling cases against them with the votes and appetite to kill so their very existence does quell legitimate discussion of other slots to an extent.

[OkaPoka]

i honestly think it's near impossible to form a legit alternative wagon to xtoxm and abr because creating a compelling day 1 case is incredibly hard and usually requires a mix of policy desire and hand wringing. but xtoxm and abr do have legitimate and compelling cases against them with the votes and appetite to kill so their very existence does quell legitimate discussion of other slots to an extent.

another way to think about it:

cases don't exist for the person writing the case but exist for others who don't share the same gutread. xtoxm and abr both have solid enough d1 cases where people are willing to vote them above initial gut-read to the point where they can legitimately die. this scenario is not a common occurrence in 18p day 1s, a legitimate counterwagon either requires 10 people to sync up their guts (<1% odds) or someone to write up a legitimate case, which as it stands, no case is going to beat the xtoxm and abr cases unless the picture changes. so the fact that they are alive is going to dampen the effects of actually pressing slots like winter flakes, like ythan unless you can write a better case. but again the d1 problem arises where getting a better case is probably not going to happen, and getting 10 people to sync up their feelings is probably not going to happen.

[OkaPoka]

So I got two team mates active on Discord right now, one of whom is whacked out from wisdom teeth extraction, and the other one who isn't.

Whacked out team mate

thinks this is ABR's town meta but is not sure.

Sober team mate

thinks that ABR could fake frustration like this as scum, especially while being run up. He says that guilting the town is a very effective countermeasure to shake off a wagon, paraphrasing ABR's behavior as

"You're all ruining mafia for me because you're all so bad."

Sober team mate also judges Ythan to be deserving of human euthanasia (paraphrasing!) for his red role PM, but at the same time claims that this would not advance the game state a whole lot, to which I replied, who cares, a red flip is good enough for me. And then he specifies that it only applies if a miselim. OK, I get it! My personal opinion is that I don't care about whether a yeet is good for the gamestate or not.

creature thinks?

[OkaPoka]

sadness tell creature i want his thoughts D:

[OkaPoka]

i honestly think it's near impossible to form a legit alternative wagon to xtoxm and abr because creating a compelling day 1 case is incredibly hard and usually requires a mix of policy desire and hand wringing. but xtoxm and abr do have legitimate and compelling cases against them with the votes and appetite to kill so their very existence does quell legitimate discussion of other slots to an extent.

Ythan is a legit alternative.

i think ythan is a sinner but xtoxm is a greater sinner is the issue you know

[OkaPoka]

You know what

Before mastina gets back

VOTE: Xtoxm

This is frustrating as fuck. I am literally on the same wavelength as mastina and likely am stuck with my vote now.

can you explain what you mean by being on the same wavelength?

I agree with almost everything she has posted.

ooh does that mean you agree with her thought process on the xtoxm thing? I'll engage you on it

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: xtoxm

feel like this is distracting im going sit here a while

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: xtoxm

feel like this is distracting im going sit here a while

you sure i can't interest you in a quick Winter Flakes pivot?

VOTE: winter flakes

I'll let things happen for a day i guess and jump around, but i also feel like if xtoxm/abr holds scum we are playing right into their hands with this ensuing chaos and confusion that is happening. most people are not going to want to read these pages and fall behind.

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: xtoxm

feel like this is distracting im going sit here a while

you sure i can't interest you in a quick Winter Flakes pivot?

VOTE: winter flakes

I'll let things happen for a day i guess and jump around, but i also feel like if xtoxm/abr holds scum we are playing right into their hands with this ensuing chaos and confusion that is happening. most people are not going to want to read these pages and fall behind.

i dunno i'm getting kind of annoyed

its a normal feeling to have

[OkaPoka]

xtoxm post poggers

[OkaPoka]

still sticking to the titus townread for the same reasons?

[OkaPoka]

why are you purposely shooting yourself in the foot?

[OkaPoka]

xtoxm, how's life been treating you recently

[OkaPoka]

I had a quick look at the major wagons at or around their peak. Jere are some interesting thoughts:

Oka Poka was on each and every single one of them. He voted IV, AGar, Titus, Xtoxm, ABR, back to Xtoxm (Xtoxm had dissipated in favour of ABR and them got rebuilt) and then he hopped on Winter Flakes.

I'm having difficulty seeing Oka SRing all top wagons at the time of then being the hot topic, so I am relegating Oka down to just below null

Also Cephrir has been on all but Titus' wagon, but he also joined Winter Flakes; wagon upon the rebuilding of Xtoxm's. I honestly dunno what to make of that but I already have Cephrir below my null line anyway

tw, Dann & Titus appear on 3 of the 6 wagons, and -again- I am not jumping to conclusions there yet.

So, the main issue is Oka Poka being on 6 different people at the time of their relative wagons being at their peak. Is Oka just scum or does he believe ANY random elimination on D1 is a good elimination?

@Oka: can you address this issue, please?

yeah, it's a stylistic choice of how I play out day 1s. I value wagoning to get us into the meat of the game which was my justification for voting IV, AGar, Titus in my head and I felt, I don't townread them so a vote there could be productive.

Xtoxm, ABR, Winter Flakes are my top three scumreads as it stands.

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: xtoxm

feel like this is distracting im going sit here a while

VOTE: xtoxm

feel like this is distracting im going sit here a while

you sure i can't interest you in a quick Winter Flakes pivot?

VOTE: winter flakes

I'll let things happen for a day i guess and jump around, but i also feel like if xtoxm/abr holds scum we are playing right into their hands with this ensuing chaos and confusion that is happening. most people are not going to want to read these pages and fall behind.

3 min 49 sec is the definition of "a while" in chicken wolrd?

Hopkirk wanted my vote on winter flakes, I'll probably head back to xtoxm if nothing comes of it. When things change I change

[OkaPoka]

Maybe this'll make more sense to you, I value the impact having a chain of votes appear on someone in the span a few minutes in a few posts rather than the same amount of votes appearing on someone over the course of a few days over a few pages. Sometimes a bit of momentum could be a solid way to edge some info out, but odds are I'm going to go back to xtoxm or abr.

[OkaPoka]

Do you have a problem with me moving my votes around?

[OkaPoka]

xtoxm are you ignoring me

[OkaPoka]

i kinda stopped caring and made that clear
pb/fl are busy anyway

no offense but why did you sign up for team mafia in the first place then

the whole point of this event is for people who really care and want an environment where they know everyone is playing to win

[OkaPoka]

Do you have a problem with me moving my votes around?

Yes. It feels inauthentic, and gives me the creeps

well its not a problem since im dying tonight anyways

[OkaPoka]

that means you won't kill me? be a little cowardly to kill me and not try and elim me abr

[OkaPoka]

glad to hear it

[OkaPoka]

i apologize a50
VOTE: abr

I'm going to look up some ms.net players to embody for the rest of the day, any suggestions

[OkaPoka]

he's TMI'ing in my opinion which is as good as any to kill

ducky lets call the banners

[OkaPoka]

who can we recruit to end the day

i do want to end the day

[OkaPoka]

i used to read mastin2 articles as a young okapoka

[OkaPoka]

its a good thing if im being manipulated by scum because that means i get to keep living or scum pumps me and dumps me, only using me to kill a lhf

once im dead, ignore my reads you hear

i have lied about many reads hehe

[OkaPoka]

its a good thing if im being manipulated by scum because that means i get to keep living or scum pumps me and dumps me, only using me to kill a lhf

once im dead, ignore my reads you hear

i have lied about many reads hehe

may I suggest dumping and reevaluating all of your reads like 30 times every phase? :3

the thing is there is a core town read i feel that is actually legit just scum but i dont feel like plot twisting the game you hear me

if i were RC and had that much confidence in my reads and sway maybe id turn this game on its head, but im not RC nor do i have his reads, i am okapoka who just lives to serve

[OkaPoka]

we do need to end this day soon i feel

people are starting to lose interesting and the war of mafia is a slow burn

plot twists can begin tomorrow

if i die i die oh well i cant share what pooky thinks but if i dont die, maybe some plots will be indeed very much twisted

[OkaPoka]

plus we end day early and we give mastina 2 days of interrupted catching up

i trust mastina to do good things as town once she's fully caught up, until then, she is truly a horsewoman of the apocalypse

[OkaPoka]

you guys want to rattle off top scumreads and then choose who to kill that way

can avoid a lot of unnecessary noise

just have everyone make one post: ordered list of people they want to kill, then we use some voting system, maybe condorcet to figure out the optimal elim

[OkaPoka]

its like guaranteed at least one scum is being a top townread, the thing is this is a closed setup, we probably have prs, that is all

pedit: i am okay with limming xtoxm

[OkaPoka]

i dont feel good about limming agar but if enough people are down fuck it you know

[OkaPoka]

yeah there definitely is scum somewhere in {duck, hercule, hop, ceph, dann} but that's just going to happen because scum want their tendrils in every group

but, im not going to bother looking in there yet when i think there are more pressing flips. i don't believe in murderizing solid townies who will be nk fodder or inevitably this game's last hope so i can live comfortably knowing that i 'wasn't' pocketed since i murdered everyone who i really like

we start murdering people like that and your going to see some absolutely embarrassing lylos

[OkaPoka]

why does it feel like im going to die

[OkaPoka]

the setup spec is isis reviewed the game so town won't have a deus ex machine plot device power role that saves us from terrible misplays

[OkaPoka]

its okay ceph i think ur a cutie

[OkaPoka]

oh my god is ceph me in baton pass

[OkaPoka]

oh my god is ceph me in baton pass

i forgot you were in that and i'm sorry you had to suffer

i play mafia to suffer

[OkaPoka]

i have convinced myself flipping agar isnt too bad because if he's scum then at least mastina should be locktown and not needing to sort mastina can simplify so much

[OkaPoka]

baton pass was fun because there was the elimlo where we almost town blocked by our severe desire to get out of the game

baton pass was so sad because i got betrayed by the very dictatorship i had fought so hard to create D:

[OkaPoka]

people are gonna whine if someone doesn't case agar

maybe I should do that

no let mastina do it - the person who is going to whine is abr and i want your sanity to be preserved

[OkaPoka]

mastina is one of the few people who cannot go insane because she probably already has lost her mind after playing ms.net for so long

[OkaPoka]

actually it might be enlightening to have mastina work on a case for agar and have abr try and stop it


dann vs abr is not interesting

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: agar

@mastina i entrust you with the task of finding the rest of the votes needed to flip agar along with writing the case for agar and fighting off any hostilities to flipping agar

otherwise ill go back to pushing one of xtoxm/abr which i assume you don't want

[OkaPoka]

cant believe we are going to let mastina get away with doing no work

[OkaPoka]

poor ceph doesn't know that he just gave a50 ammo on d2

[OkaPoka]

ugh sorry guys I don’t know what the best way to get back into this is, I’m so far behind at this point and don’t have the motivation to read the last 50 pages

its fine honestly, last 50 pages were a bunch of dancing around xtoxm, abr, and agar

if you want, wait for mastina to case agar and see if your into that

[OkaPoka]

to be fair nsg

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: xtoxm

alright still am 'open' to a mastina SCUMCASE on agar to change my mind, no towncase on xtoxm will do that

[OkaPoka]

Xtoxm if u dont interact with me anymore and thus not see my response to your response why would you even think i dont care about your answers

I literally cannot show whether i care or not

[OkaPoka]

@agar look, maybe your right, but the things you pointed out on mastina might not be scummy for mastina (yeah ur going to say meta is trash im sorry)

w.r.t titus, i dont know how to read titus, she's kinda... there? ur case points out things that are weird but are they scummy? idk

just think there are better things to do today you know

[OkaPoka]

he's part of the bandwagon block i have issues with. -xtoxm

This is the first time you expressed an issue with the bandwagon block? elaborate on the issues? what does auro think?

[OkaPoka]

can you elaborate on auro's criticisms on the major wagons?

[OkaPoka]

how much of this game have you kept up with/who should we be looking at to yeet from your eyes?

[OkaPoka]

my turn to do some coloring

"the bloc"

{okapoka, ducky, danny, cephrir, hercule}

"the bloc's allies of convenience (people who are doing their own things that happen to align with the bloc) aka the BAC

{dunny, unwnd, hopkirk, IV}

"the opposition"

{xtoxm, abr, winter flakes, a50, agar, mastina}

unaligned

{ythan, titus, dgb}

The bloc is defined as the group of people who all are vibe checking each other and for the most part, mutually back each other enough to the point where they have very similar PoE's, are pushing similar people to get flipped, have been on wagons with each other multiple times for the sake of trusting each other. They are on very similar wavelengths to the point where if someone posts something scummy, they can all sync up their minds and wagon someone very quickly without explanation, or at least they like to think so, because there may be pretenders to the cause. Agent OkaPoka is the lead hyperposter who seems to avoid scumreads from most members of the opposition, but other members of the bloc are not so fortunate. Agent the_worst Codename: ducky seems to be the primary target of the deepwolf label by most members of the opposition. Ceph and Hercule are both significant targets of the scumread and are accused of being opportunistic with the timing? of their posting, aka active lurking? Dannyboi aka the Charisma seems to have the least but still has deep seated fears about being the real deepwolf. But the bloc continues to chug along, even though I suspect all members of the bloc have a suspicion to who in the bloc has been buddying and pocketing the rest of them, but they want to keep their fears private for the near future and look for the other wolves.

The bloc's allies of convenience aka the BAC are people who have a lot with the bloc to the point where they might as well be part of the bloc but for whatever reasons are not. Members like Dunnstral has largely aligned with the desires of the bloc through his posting and voting pattern, but does not participate in the bloc's many uncertainties and continuous cyclical vote swapping. Unwnd is a person who has completely aligned himself with the bloc even with expressed apprehension towards the bloc and expression that the alliance is only out of convenience for the elongated day. Hopkirk appears to align himself with the bloc in the sense that he trusts most of the bloc, but appears to push people outside of the bloc at his own discretion mainly. IV pretty much isn't doing much and seems to express a sense of not knowing what's happening but continuously aligns himself with the bloc with the way he votes and is swung by what the bloc wants.

The opposition represents the members who have openly expressed a deep disliking for the existence of the bloc and the desire to kill multiple members of the bloc, today. The opposition, though seemingly fragmented at points, at this point have been united in their mutual townreads for each other and scumreads for different members of the bloc. They have repeatedly sowed paranoia into the bloc and labelled bloc activities as driven by policy on obvious town, and have been largely united in openly defending each other and question the bloc's intentions. However united they are in agreeing that there are at least 2 members of the bloc who are scum, they are split apart by who they actually want to flip today, largely by their own volition in xtoxm refusing to play the game, abr purposely splitting his vote away from others, and flakes seemingly only concerned with chainsaws. A50, it's hard to tell what he is trying to do, but his actions does speak to essentially protecting other members of the opposition while purging members of the bloc or others. AGar/mastina are members of the opposition whom I was thinking about including one or the other, however they are probably not united nor are they aligned the same. But I will leave them both in the opposition because in the end, they do try and protect other members of the opposition through their actions, want to yeet members of the bloc, and express a strict opposition to bloc activities (although I will say mastina seems to undermine the bloc more than agar). Many members of the opposition townread at least one, if not both of these individuals, in spite of them trying to yeet the other one off. Interesting dynamic to say the least.

The last grouping are the wildcards, the neutral, the unaligned. The people who I can't categorize because they have played both sides or in the case of ythan, really played no side. These members are also unaligned because neither the bloc nor the opposition really want to claim them as their own or their allies and honestly, they don't really have unified people who are defending them. These are the true low hanging fruit, the people who will probably be the target of a compromise wagon if forced, because townreads on them are not expressed in unison, and most people feel nullish on them. Of course there are townreads on members and dgb is one of the more polarizing members of the neutrals, but in the end, when the chips are down, neither the bloc nor the opposition will go to bat for members in the neutral, unless they feel like they can get a flip without needing to compromise. Maybe some individuals from the bloc and the opposition will, but it will not be enough to swing the rest of the group.


this is how im grouping the game ~ and I think scum have divided themselves into these groups because if I were scum this is how I would have positioned the game out. but i will say if any grouping has two scums, its in the opposition (but im biased).

distribution in my head probably looks like 1 1 1 1 or 1 0 2 1 or 1 1 2 0 or 0 1 2 1

[OkaPoka]

The opposition represents the members who have openly expressed a deep disliking for the existence of the bloc and the desire to kill multiple members of the bloc, today.

i feel like this is a gargantuan stretch wrt myself

its harder to label the opposition party as one unifying ideology because the very nature of an opposition party invites a big tent coalition-y type feel where they exist simply to oppose another but 'ideologically' they can be a mixed bag

you have expressed a dislike from the 'bandwagon' which i presume is the bloc, but i suppose you are unique in that you dont want to flip anyone so far it seems

[OkaPoka]

but the very point of this exercise was also to depict how yes the bloc is circlejerky but you'd be blind not to see that the opposition is not as well

the difference is that members of the opposition have the ability to claim the benefits of the opposition where they can't be guilty of gamestate stuff because they are the "minority"

[OkaPoka]

We would easily work together if we focused on common threats but Oka thinks in terms of allies and enemies with xtoxm agar as the dividing line.

if you read my post you'd realize what im saying is that both sides have a wolf in them and the last thing we want to do is try and compromise on someone people feel meh on because that's the most susceptible path to manipulation

[OkaPoka]

We would easily work together if we focused on common threats but Oka thinks in terms of allies and enemies with xtoxm agar as the dividing line.

if you read my post you'd realize what im saying is that both sides have a wolf in them and the last thing we want to do is try and compromise on someone people feel meh on because that's the most susceptible path to manipulation

I got bored around the middle, it was too long. No more colors.

Fine well how about Cephrir???

look im not going to go around pressuring people without a good reason, and pressure for the sake of pressure isn't it

if i vote ceph right now ceph is just going to laugh and know at the end of the line, im not going to flip him, and that's NAI for him because why would it, its common sense

write a good case on him, do a back and forth, if he's scummy then sure

but just voting for the sake of voting isn't going to get us anywhere when we clearly have info to work with, its not rvs anymore

[OkaPoka]

just a pro tip to make your posts more readable @agar, use quote tags instead of post tags so we dont have to click around (especially helpful when mobile viewing the game)

[OkaPoka]

okay let's dissect this, why do you want my vote if im going to be a small part of a big wagon that will inevitably leave?

[OkaPoka]

well beating up xtoxm made me move you into the scumpile in the sense that i think you are TMI'ng and beating up agar makes me think mastina/agar are antialigned

[OkaPoka]

who else have you been appealing to?

[OkaPoka]

well beating up xtoxm made me move you into the scumpile in the sense that i think you are TMI'ng and beating up agar makes me think mastina/agar are antialigned

That's fine. For me xtoxm looks null-town and agar looks town. We can have differences on a tactical level and still work together on macro strategy. I just have not collected enough data to say someoone is scum with a high level of confidence even though I fake it day 1 for pressure's sake.

well there is the difference between you and me

i think day 1's have diminishing returns without seeing flips, i believe scum are better than town at making a situation good for them the longer the day goes after a certain point, i believe that there is an instrinsic value to cutting days short when the are exhausting to preserve town sanity, and i believe we have enough information to make an informed enough decision as it can be for day 1.

how have you appealed to dgb, hercules, cephrir in flipping cephrir? (especially cephrir im so confused)

[OkaPoka]

okay but im talking about getting the ceph wagon, if you want pressure on it you have to get enough people, how are you doing that? because i presume you don't really care about my vote all that much because you said so yourself

anyways to flesh out my point, a green flip early in d1 is not so bad, a red flip late d1 is very good, a green flip late d1 is terrible, and i believe in the premise that more time after like a point does not improve our ability to go from green to red

ok bye abr

[OkaPoka]

ACTUALLY

maybe a bit more time might be good

give me like a day or two something important could happen

[OkaPoka]

probably wont meant too much but maybe it could

its like a buying a lottery ticket you know

very low odds that something happens but if it does then maybe the world changes

[OkaPoka]

mama mia ~ its the pizzeria

i apologize if you are ethnically italian

[OkaPoka]

mathblade hasn't read the game and might not be able to but i will/am talk to him about titus related things

[OkaPoka]

sup hop

[OkaPoka]

AGar is what I wanted to become when i was a wee young newbie in the newbie queue circa 2014

[OkaPoka]

I REALLY like this post.

I read that post in its entirety.

That I had nothing to say about it should tell you that I didn't.

Ditto for 2836. Which gets the same treatment: there was nothing to like in that post.

{okapoka, ducky, danny, cephrir, hercule}
{dunny, unwnd, hopkirk, IV}
{xtoxm, abr, winter flakes, a50, agar, mastina}
{ythan, titus, dgb}

this is how im grouping the game ~ and I think scum have divided themselves into these groups because if I were scum this is how I would have positioned the game out. but i will say if any grouping has two scums, its in the opposition (but im biased).

distribution in my head probably looks like 1 1 1 1 or 1 0 2 1 or 1 1 2 0 or 0 1 2 1

Oka, the very fact that scum are distributed among the groups mean that you should have a total dissolution of the groups, and rebuild the groups so that they're entirely grouped by alignment.

If the bloc has scum in it (considering your bloc has both Cephrir and hecule I guarantee it does), then you need to eject the scum from it: remove them from the group, discard their input, and fundamentally reevaluate.
If the allies have scum in it (eh, possible, but my gutcheck says all-town in there), then you need to eject the scum from it: remove them from the group, discard their input, and fundamentally reevaluate.
If the opposition has town in it (and I would say that all but one, mayyyyyyybe in a stretch 2, of the names in there are town), then you need to eject the town from it: remove them from the group, accept their input, and fundamentally reevaluate, taking the input of the town into account.

There's a difference from a D1 solve that you know is incomplete and flawed due to it being D1, and a fundamental acceptance of a flawed paradigm which even you the maker of it realize and know to be fundamentally wrong and serving to let scum blend in.

The former allows the town to have a rudimentary solve that, while imperfect, is more accurate than not.
The acceptance of the latter allows the scum to blend in because they're equally divided and have infiltrated each group, giving them a disproportionate amount of sway, meaning that the scum are never truly threatened as long as this paradigm is accepted as acceptable.

The thing is, I'm accepting the reality of scum infiltrating my 'group' because while I think it's likely, I'm not entirely sure who. I'm not entirely sure who and I don't think I am willing yet to start sacrificing members of the bloc to find the mole, I think scum will do that for us and cut the numbers down because people in this bloc are the most threatening to scum in lylo, and if scum aren't bothering about trying to set up a win, all the better for us. All it means is that in the future, you can reference this again and not get skitter'd. It's something you can use as reference in the future to remember how it felt in day 1, instead of hindsighting. Like a primary source of sorts.

Meanwhile, there are certain people that are just never going to be nightkilled and if they continue, always just going to be a LHF target, you know? Can never escape the PoE and don't really help other people solve the game. I want to look in that box first. I think as more days go by, the people who are willing to post a lot are going to be more sortable, but if you never are willing to post or explain things, you aren't going to be that sortable ever. You will always be there, lurking in poes, maybe scum maybe not.

If this were nightless, you are goddamn right I'd be investigating more. Dunnstral can vouch that in Epilogue! I tried the hardest to prevent an LHF flip first. But it's not, nightkills will happen, if I'm going to start somewhere it's going to be with the groupings that I don't perceive as nk fodder and also I perceive as +scum equity.

[OkaPoka]

going to consult my team when they are available

ive also kept some reads private that my team has made, they are quite plot twisty

but if we want some plot twists, say it now or hold your peace forever

i trust town can manage without our team's sekkrit reads but if we want, we can go down a dark and bloody path

[OkaPoka]

has there ever been a 'towncore' without a scum in it

[OkaPoka]

mastina you seem like the best person to talk about the history of towncores in different games so ill leave that question to you

[OkaPoka]

if im going to go for a massive high variance play

i might as well have a history lesson to go to boot with it

[OkaPoka]

@mastina who on my team should i trust the most for a second opinion

[OkaPoka]

@mastina dkkoba has become mathblade for what its worth, he's a little busy in his own games but I'll talk to him when I get the chance

[OkaPoka]

alright I'll talk to mathblade, if we want to follow through on the greatest coinflip in the history of coinflips this is the game to do it

[OkaPoka]

IV do you feel involved now

[OkaPoka]

okay i havent read the entire wall yet agar but the reason why i wanted just another day is mathblade replaced into our team which means another pair of eyes to look you know?

[OkaPoka]

okay when we get to hammer just let me know ill give some team reads and such

[OkaPoka]

to avoid the pending drama that may ensue

[OkaPoka]

math is sleep if you want his thoughts idk give us a night

[OkaPoka]

be lazy now so you dont have to be lazy tomorrow you hear me

[OkaPoka]

can't believe your final words to your son is oka smells the shittiest

[OkaPoka]

is herc my secret brother how could u father

first you leave this thread for a carton a milk and now you tell me that herc is my brother?

[OkaPoka]

ythan lets play a game

why is xtoxm town

[OkaPoka]

you said the case is shit as well

[OkaPoka]

okay explain with hearts why xtoxm is town please

[OkaPoka]

And the case is presumably shit because xtoxm is town? Why is xtoxm town

[OkaPoka]

don't know why you are being so cheeky when I don't even think you read the game

what is the xtoxm case?

[OkaPoka]

You agree with xtoxm's interpretation of Titus?

Do you even know who brought up the url?

[OkaPoka]

You've said the xtoxm case is shit. You said that xtoxm case is about "nonsense about titus" "100 pages of spiralling" "url nonsense" and you are blaming hercule and I for it. Presumably if the case is shit its because you don't agree with the points in the case and I don't know how the 100 pages thing plays into it, so I'm trying to explore why you think the case is shit.

So if the case is shit, then clearly you don't agree with my interpretation w.r.t to xtoxm and titus. So what is your interpretation?

And also I know who brought up the url and there is only one person who is voting xtoxm who actually cares about the url. Just asking you for conversational purposes.

[OkaPoka]

And besides, how could it not matter? If the wagon is so shit and the case is so shit, I'd want to remember who brought up what.

[OkaPoka]

But of course you haven't read the game since if you did, you'd probably understand what you are literally doing right now is how this thread keeps adding on pages. But anyways, back to you!

[OkaPoka]

y es senor xtoxm un town

[OkaPoka]

You literally don't even know the specifics of the case and can't come up with a reason why xtoxm is town. You're also missing one of the largest components as to why most people are voting xtoxm.

I'm being nice and am going to talk about the parts you think you know about, let's talk about titus?