Mini 2206 - Deja Vu: Perpetual MELO IV - END!

[Infinity 324]

Ok why

[Infinity 324]

Can you give a current readslist too? It's hard for me to believe that bulge isn't in your PoE with so many towny people in the game

[Infinity 324]

I scumread NM because he's intentionally curbing his interactions with players. He said 3 scum were on his wagons, gave an okayish reason for Cakez, and peaced despite keeping tabs on thread.

I realize he's NM but I feel there's a reason he's not getting into it with my slot or others over this.

I'm ok with this reason but tbh I would've expected unicorns go fall from the sky over NM answering a follow-up question

[Infinity 324]

mmmm it looks like Bulge probably has to be scum from my current POE if I'm not wrong on my TRs

Technically no but these are the lines I'm trying to get you to think along if town

[Infinity 324]

Iverson continues to be town imo

[Infinity 324]

Would talking about anything help idk

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE: idk

[Infinity 324]

i feel like you've kinda dropped off ig. like you came on strong day1 with your reads and opinions, and i liked that since it's hard for you to do that as scum
but you kinda need to keep doing that to maintain that sort of read and, well, you're not
like you feel more float-y

Sorry ig

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE: idk

what's prompting this?

Gut

[Infinity 324]

I'm confused why bulge is approaching the game this way as scum, and saying a bunch of reasons you're town that don't make sense is probably a town tell

If something doesn't make sense and you don't believe it usually you don't say it

[Infinity 324]

"this looks towny on the surface, but reads like scum trying to act town", I think it's natural to conclude with some sort of 'null' read, or else talk through why you make the decision you do.

I don't do this, this read is scum much more often than rand

[Infinity 324]

Looks towny on the surface isn't a towntell

[Infinity 324]

"this looks towny on the surface, but reads like scum trying to act town", I think it's natural to conclude with some sort of 'null' read, or else talk through why you make the decision you do.

I don't do this, this read is scum much more often than rand

can you rephrase?

When I think someone looks towny on the surface but reads like scum trying to act town, they are very often scum. It's as good a scumtell as any.

[Infinity 324]

For anyone still curious, or in spite of those not, I am Prism.

OHHHHHHH
I knew you were familiar!

Man this is hard. Bulge's posts on page 90 just don't read scum to me at all. Way too genuine.
Infinity might have to be scum ://////
I will say that "anything I can do idk" comment was pinging me

I think that was actually towny for me

It's like, my most important job rn is to get townread and idk how to do that

[Infinity 324]

You are correct my read on you is awful

[Infinity 324]

I saw a post a while back (the big spoiler one maybe?) that made me want to locktown you and I didn't say anything about it and bork is very confident you're town so I have no real reason to question the read

[Infinity 324]

Hi ydra do you have a read on bulge

[Infinity 324]

I don't think ydrasse is out of her townrange

[Infinity 324]

I wanna vote NM but I hate the people on that wagon and I'm still bothered by the pushback the bulge wagon got. I don't know why that's like, the only time ydra and mena seemed synced up this game. And prism probably isn't out of his scumrange which isn't really making me feel better

[Infinity 324]

Meh that's kinda how I read people

[Infinity 324]

I hate getting into the WIFOM game of "would player x do this as scum" (rather than "could") because scum motivations are complicated and we have a very incomplete picture of the game as well as how different people like to play scum

[Infinity 324]

one is scummy by posting and PoE and one is only scummy by PoE? I don't get what's so difficult to understand here

Ydrasse I'd like to know your thoughts on this (referring to me voting bulge over NM)

[Infinity 324]

Who bulge?

[Infinity 324]

Whatever I wanna vote with my TRs

VOTE: bulge

[Infinity 324]

If I sheep notsci who's town cause I'm sheeping bork and so on ad infinitum I think it's logically impossible for my reads to be wrong

[Infinity 324]

I'm ok waiting for people to catch up and then voting NM

[Infinity 324]

who are people, besides Bulge?

Lilith, ydrasse, mom

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: infinity

Scum often don't know how confident to be, especially when they replace in, town generally have examples in mind when they're suspicious of a group. Peta didn't want to point to examples because the townies were all transparently town and he didn't want to sow paranoia on a buddy. If you want I can argue this point with you until I can convince you I believe it

is sure to clarify how strongly she believes this point. but this is the last thing she had said about the townbloc at this point:

To be 100% honest nothing anyone has said has convinced me that {me, notsci, bork, VFT} isn't a townbloc, and I'm sort of just waiting for mom/bulge to post because those are the only slots I don't feel like I've sorted yet. People have said that nacho could be town, which is possible I guess, but nacho is mostly on board with the bloc as well? Maybe I'll re-evaluate VFT but yeah that's where I'm at with the game rn

?? I said the bloc was all town, peta said the bloc had scum

[Infinity 324]

this is the last thing she had said about the townbloc at this point

* or any of its members

in fact here's a more recent opinion even

Salsa's flipping actually feels very genuine to me

She's my strongest TR outside the bloc

notably this one comes after 1470

I don't get what the problem is here

Scum are going all out to get 2-0 and put us on the back foot for the rest of the game, there’s at least 1, probably 2 scum already on me here, if I were scum I would 100% have been the sacrifice

There were a bunch of townies defending you

???

That's why NM wasn't the sacrifice

[Infinity 324]

you claimed to believe that peta didn't want to sow paranoia within the townbloc in order to protect his buddy. who is the buddy?

There doesn't have to be one. If it's all town the logic still holds

[Infinity 324]

Scum often don't know how confident to be, especially when they replace in, town generally have examples in mind when they're suspicious of a group. Peta didn't want to point to examples because

the townies were all transparently town and

he didn't want to sow paranoia on a buddy. If you want I can argue this point with you until I can convince you I believe it

[Infinity 324]

I'm demonstrating that you still, as far as your posting shows, believe in an all-town townbloc

Again, what's the problem here?

[Infinity 324]

Scum often don't know how confident to be, especially when they replace in, town generally have examples in mind when they're suspicious of a group. Peta didn't want to point to examples because

the townies were all transparently town and

he didn't want to sow paranoia on a buddy. If you want I can argue this point with you until I can convince you I believe it

[Infinity 324]

I'm pretty confident it would've been ineffective and peta probably knew that

Or he wasn't engaged enough and as town he probably wouldn't have been as confident saying there's scum in that bloc

[Infinity 324]

the issue at hand is why you think he didn't name any names.

And if he named names, he would have to give specific arguments for one of those players being scum, which probably would not go over very well. If you're specific you're more easy to hold accountable

It's possible that peta wasn't specific for other reasons (see, the other reason I also gave) or even that he would've approached it the same way as town. I don't know for sure but the fact that you're hung up on this as a contradiction is absurd to me

[Infinity 324]

It's pretty clear that there's many points of possible benefit of the doubt you could be giving me and are not, I don't believe that you're trying not to tunnel

[Infinity 324]

That's an absurd characterization, I literally gave reasoning in the original post for why peta wouldn't want to name specific townies as scum, which would've been the most intuitive thing to ask about if town cause that was like, the heart of your issue. But you treated it as if it wasn't there

(Also contradictions aren't scummy lmao but that's a separate thing)

[Infinity 324]

Peta: scum is in townbloc
Others: I disagree but ok

Peta: bork is scum
Others: lmao no

[Infinity 324]

or the response to the line about townies defending NM for that matter

Can you elaborate on this? Why do you disagree and why does that make me scum

[Infinity 324]

that belief directly contradicts with your belief that peta didn't want to name names within the bloc.

I interpret this as "believing that the bloc is all town and that peta didn't want to name individuals from it is inherently a contradiction"

I'm not sure it mattered to bulge what I implied about the bloc to begin with

[Infinity 324]

"contradictions aren't scummy" is hugely reductive. i mean sure if you want to ignore all the context and nuance of what I'm actually pointing out. don't try to make this out to be a game theory discussion where you've already given yourself the crutch that you "disagree with everyone on like 90% of mafia theory".

I don't want to make this about mafia theory, but I wanted to express my somewhat relevant opinion

I don't believe that is what you meant. your wording in the original quoted post does not at all imply speculation. this is a good example of the backpedalling/stretching of ambiguous wording I talked about last night

Ok but what do you think I actually meant and why is that scummy

[Infinity 324]

Scum often don't know how confident to be, especially when they replace in, town generally have examples in mind when they're suspicious of a group. Peta didn't want to point to examples because the townies were all transparently town and he didn't want to sow paranoia on a

(possible)

buddy. If you want I can argue this point with you until I can convince you I believe it

Are you happy now? I should've added a word in the original post, that's literally all it was

[Infinity 324]

infinity i think 2465 sums it up.

That doesn't sum up the response to NM though

[Infinity 324]

I don't think you want your points and thought process to be fully laid out on display and explored and have all its holes exposed. the stretching and backpedalling and retroactive justification is spinning it all into a more convoluted web. if you were town being incorrectly pushed for a take you feel has been misinterpreted, I would expect some kind of summary, or alternate explanation, or a dumbed down version at least. instead I get stuff like you quoting the same post I have a problem with twice in a row as if that should be convincing me of anything new. you're looking for evidence that you didn't let your perspective slip instead of just explaining what you meant.

It's because I thought it was pretty clear what I meant to begin with, to be fair I didn't quite understand the problem you had with my posting and I thought the explanation was more obvious than it actually was. I still don't think a townie would make as big a deal out of this as you are, because my point still holds if there's no scum in the townbloc. My wording just wrongly implied that I believe such a scum exists.

[Infinity 324]

Bulge has a problem with 2417 that I don't get.

[Infinity 324]

Peta didn't want to point to examples because the townies were all transparently town and he didn't want to sow paranoia on a buddy.

my interpretation of this line is "peta didn't want to shake things up too much because the actual townies in the bloc were all transparently so, and he didn't want to risk blowing his partner's deep cover"

it doesn't make sense to say this at all if infinity doesn't think there is a partner in that bloc, regardless of any alternate theories she has given since then for why peta might have done that.

If me, bork, VFT, and notsci are all transparently town, it makes sense why peta didn't want to point to a specific scum in that group because...we're all transparently town.

[Infinity 324]

Originally I didn't include the part about the (possible) buddy in the townbloc, but I didn't want my argument to depend on the entire townbloc being town. I didn't check the part I added in I guess.

[Infinity 324]

doesn't make a difference here what I think you meant. it's scummy to lie and give false reasoning.

*deep breath*

What was the original problem you had with my post?

What was the scum motivation to lie about that post?

[Infinity 324]

this is just more of the same damage-control-type responses I've been so far unsatisfied with, so no.

To me the fact that the presence of a word could've solved your entire problem probably means you should've taken a more inquisitive approach rather than "wow look at this obvscum"

[Infinity 324]

See this just tells me you think we're at an "agree to disagree" impasse, so why haven't you shifted the discussion to that? I said I don't like how you worded your earlier posts and felt it betrayed your scum alignment. You said your words didn't accurately reflect your thoughts. I don't believe that and no amount of backpedalling will convince me to. so I'm taking your original statements at face value. yet you continue to try and justify them to me? you're flailing.

I have a very difficult time believing that you think a townie couldn't misword something as I did (putting aside the backpedaling stuff).

[Infinity 324]

quite simply, it looks like tmi. is tmi that blatant something scum will slip up on? maybe not. on it's own it confuses me, but it's fishy. so I express that. it's not fishy enough on it's own to equate to a full scumread in a vacuum. what makes you definitively scum to me, though, is that I believe you lied to me in your explanation.

the scum motivation to lie about it is so they won't get caught doing tmi I suppose?

How can you interpret something as TMI if you don't understand what it means?

[Infinity 324]

this is just more of the same damage-control-type responses I've been so far unsatisfied with, so no.

To me the fact that the presence of a word could've solved your entire problem probably means you should've taken a more inquisitive approach rather than "wow look at this obvscum"

do you think I'm confbiased somehow?

I think you're very confbiased if town yeah

[Infinity 324]

(putting aside the backpedaling stuff).

(I won't be doing this)

That's fine, I'm just saying that I don't necessarily have a problem with that reasoning because I can't judge it from an unbiased perspective.

[Infinity 324]

so vaguely shading the entire group of Extremely Obvious Townies without further developing that thought is the more town-looking move? please

It's probably more effective at least (in a vacuum one of 4 players being scum is a lot more likely than any particular one), and I do think he'd have gotten a lot of pushback if he tried to argue a particular scumread in that group

Is there any way you think I should be approaching this differently as town?

[Infinity 324]

I guess part of what's frustrating me about this interaction is that I don't normally expect my reasoning to be 100% clear to people and often expect to have to be asked clarifying questions to sort things out. So when I do that and then am told that I'm lying it's like wtf do you want me to do? I also tend to be quite careful expressing opinions as scum, as I think most people are, so I don't really have a reason to lie about what I said because I already thought it through. If I'm trying to be unbiased, I think you have a decent chance of being town, especially if NM flips scum, but if you are town you're sorting me in totally the wrong way.

[Infinity 324]

Ok, is there anything you still don't understand (even if you don't believe it?)

It's possible I'm approaching this unnecessarily defensively. The frustration I talked about above is probably why

[Infinity 324]

Idk why scum sends bulge to solo push me, if there are more townread members of the scumteam then that would give the push a lot more legitimacy. Even just a quantity of people pushing on me would help to give it more legitimacy. Scum play is messier that I'm describing here but I think if scum!bulge wanted to push me he would probably not go all out?

[Infinity 324]

If you're using that as an example, it's too generic of behavior to be AI imo

[Infinity 324]

Mena's push to vote NM over bulge looks really good, but ydrasse's bulge vote does not, and I feel like she's had ample opportunity to obvtown

[Infinity 324]

well i feel like a fucking jackass

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: The Bulge

lmao peace nerds

Oh I still don't get what this was about

[Infinity 324]

I should've unvoted bulge but

Sigh

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: The Bulge

lmao peace nerds

Oh I still don't get what this was about

How are you confused? Have you read the page and a half that followed?

What specifically is your interpretation of the later posting?

I don't have one, it confused the hell out of me

[Infinity 324]

Well as a town scumhunter it is your job to make an educated guess that I will correct if needed

How's this: you're scum who decided to quickhammer because it benefits your wincon and everything else was nonsense you made up to make it seem like you knew what you were doing

Beyond DC I'm not sure who scum is

[Infinity 324]

How's this: you're scum who decided to quickhammer because it benefits your wincon and everything else was nonsense you made up to make it seem like you knew what you were doing

And yet you're not voting me, it sounds like you have a theory for what I was doing as town that is mysteriously absent.

There's a very slight probability that my explanation is the correct one but it's much more likely than any other explanation I can come up with

[Infinity 324]

Well I'll leave you at the drawing board then sorry

Why?

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: iverson

[Infinity 324]

Normally when I don't understand something I ask and judge how believable the answer is, but iverson seems to really want me to vote him before he answers, so /shrug

No one else vote iverson obv

[Infinity 324]

Normally when I don't understand something I ask and judge how believable the answer is, but iverson seems to really want me to vote him before he answers, so /shrug

No one else vote iverson obv

I am still not going to answer it for you, as you have intentionally avoided addressing the nonsense in favor of flopping or playing dumb, and only reluctantly acknowledged it existed and minimized engaging with it when challenged.

Dude I don't fucking understand it there's nothing for me to engage there

[Infinity 324]

"nearing" I literally openly blitzed a town player but saying I won't unvote a scumread is what does it for you?

If you hammered a wagon you didn't prefer in order to slayer's gambit I will quit mafia

[Infinity 324]

Looking scummy on purpose for reactions

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE: didn't realize NM quickhammering was free, but did you see my last post leaning towards TRing bulge?

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: DC

[Infinity 324]

I still think there's a high probability DC and prism scumblitzed bulge

[Infinity 324]

i feel like she's dropped off a lot in a way that's rather reminiscent of her scum MO.

Can you be more specific? I don't think I drop off like this usually and I tend to have less conviction as scum

[Infinity 324]

i associate more activity + pushing-ness with town-you and while you were kinda like that in early game it's the sort of thing i think you have a very hard time keeping up so the read has devolved. and can u show me where you think you're being conviction-ful (i'm sure there's a real word for that but it's escaping my mind atm)
fwiw panic room is the baseline i'm going off of

My whole interaction with bulge d2 (until I doubted myself), my interaction with iverson today feels like things I would've approached with less convinction as scum

Panic room is not a great baseline because I mostly dropped off because I felt like the game was lost, but I do sometimes tend to drop off as scum

[Infinity 324]

now you're kinda saying that isn't a prototypical scumgame?

It's not and I don't even know what a typical scumgame of mine would be, most of my recent ones are really small. Though I think the way I played d1 in panic room is a decent representation of how I play d1s as scum

I'm not really sure how to respond to you saying it's less conviction than you'd expect me to have as scum, it felt like more conviction to me. Maybe we're defining conviction differently

[Infinity 324]

this isn't helping me stave off paranoia and i request you change tack if you can

why the flip from iverson onto dc?

I'm mostly trying to sort skitt but it probably isn't helpful

I still feel like iverson and salsa have been towny on play, I mostly voted iverson to try to get an explanation on the hammer

Ydrasse's bulge vote looks particularly bad given both heads' insistence on a bulge vote over an NM vote earlier in the day

[Infinity 324]

maybe i need to do some homework and look at another scumgame or two of urs
but like the problem i'm having is that you made a massive thing in the last game i playe diwth town-you about how different you were playing than panic room and how utterly unreasonable i was being for attempting to scumread you there because you t hought i ought to have known that how you were playing just couldn't come from scum-you
and here you're kinda fading into the background more and kinda taking a different stance wrt this sort of meta

I mean yeah I'm playing differently from divide and conquer but that game was pretty rare and you've seen me be very different in PyP and jk9++ and ss3

[Infinity 324]

I still feel like iverson and salsa have been towny on play, I mostly voted iverson to try to get an explanation on the hammer

and you found this satisfactory?

No but he's still less scummy than DC

Here's a decent example of a scumgame of mine

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12586956

[Infinity 324]

No but he's still less scummy than DC

why?

The DC bulge vote was really bad and convenient based on the hydra's previous stance there, and I feel like ydrasse should've obvtowned by now (she has a decent amount of content over the course of the game)

Salsa was towny, and prism at least has put in a lot of work to make it seem like he's sorting people if scum

[Infinity 324]

I'm really going to feel like an idiot if one of the original townbloc members is scum but also I can't ever justify voting them so /shrug

I should still sheep your notsci read right bork?

[Infinity 324]

DC, mom, prism? Ig?

[Infinity 324]

infinity you're kinda scaring me :(

I think I might have the motivation to put some time into this game this weekend, if that helps.

Beyond that idk. I'm not really feeling good about this game anyway

[Infinity 324]

Us apparently being infinity’s top SR is bizarre and coming right off a pivot from iverson feels more to me like a read she feels she has to have than one that she actually has

Like I’m not getting the trajectory here at all but if u wanna try to explain @infinity then I’m listening

Read my posts

[Infinity 324]

Ok

[Infinity 324]

Like I don’t actually think infinity is trying at this point

I don't need to convince you I'm town lmao

[Infinity 324]

Skitt and bork are absurdly towny, I'm trusting bork on notsci, how is everyone else not in the PoE

You also avoided addressing ydrasse's awful bulge vote

[Infinity 324]

Like you and ydrasse (rightly) made a point of yelling at me for voting bulge over NM and when I call out your slot for swapping and voting bulge you're like "lol contrived"

[Infinity 324]

infinity, where are u holding rn

pedit >.>

~ skitter

I will get to this game today

[Infinity 324]

If someone wants me to ISO someone in particular say so, I'm probably gonna focus on mom and salsa if not

[Infinity 324]

I don't think prism relies on a "I wouldn't do this as scum" as a strong scum player here but idk.

[Infinity 324]

Granted I use them in conjunction w/ more effective and clean strategies rather than floppin' round like a seabass

Yeah that's kinda what I mean, normally strong scum will set themselves up to have stronger arguments later on, especially if they're doing something that's anti-town on it's face, rather than relying on "it would be dumb to do x as scum", I don't think you'd think that would be effective.

[Infinity 324]

I guess I'm assuming either cakez or prism scum atp, but I really don't know.

[Infinity 324]

I'm sort of preparing to re-evaluate, I haven't had much motivation today and to be 100% honest I'm having trouble finding a way to reread that would be productive but I'll start by ISOing peta and seeing where that gets me.

[Infinity 324]

I don't fucking know can we vote DC

What are your reservations with voting DC. Maybe that's a more productive use of my time than looking through the ISO of a strong scum player whose one job was to make the associatives unclear

[Infinity 324]

Leafeon and Glaceon

(3): Disaster Cartel, Nachomamma8, SirCakez

Not_Mafia

(4): Infinity 324, Disaster Cartel, SirCakez, Iverson

In a recent game pooky told me that cakez is allergic to bussing since recently

fuck this game

[Infinity 324]

DC has been mostly pinpoint on L&G (scum), NM (scum), and Mara (who you also think is scum) and Mena has been pretty ok to me since early D1.

You were on Iverson but swapped off him for 2779 and I don't get what you saw there (and you even made 2782 later)

DC gets very little credit for voting NM since the slot voted bulge in the end.

I didn't start TRing iverson when I unvoted him, I was only voting him to pressure him into explaining the hammer. Honestly, I don't understand his play here, but I think that's more town-indicative than anything, I just can't see an agenda to his play. Idk obviously one of my townreads is wrong, and I wouldn't even really be townreading the slot if not for salsa being towny as well.

[Infinity 324]

Why does scum!salsa keep flipflopping on her nacho read during her catch-up?

[Infinity 324]

I'm liking

Nachomamma8

's 345; 347 seems okay too; 348 is also good, though the tunnel thing on

Not_Mafia

tells me take a step back but his reply for 284 makes me thinking differently. I've to read more from him to understand him properly; 349 also ok ig; I'm feeling naked after reading the 350 :facepalm: :facepalm: (I need to change my town/scum gameplay but really don't know how :cry: )

I'm changing my mind about you. I don't like when people start to use AtE. I'm leaning scum on you.

UNVOTE: Disaster Cartel

VOTE: Nachomamma8

Nachomamma8

's 953 I'm keeping under consideration. By doing this, I just realize that my heart still wants to give a pass to him on Day 1. So, I'm unvoting again (sue me if you want but this game is hard! :( )[/color]

UNVOTE: Nachomamma8

Would a scum team of mena nacho mom lg notmaf want to let nacho die or the habitual lurk scum. If you are townreading this wagon of four you have to understand scum want no part in killing nacho which should tell you anyone trying to derail it is immediately sus.

Actually, I don't see

Nachomamma8

as a scum yet, because of this:

he starts off the game with a move that draws negative attention to himself like trying to policy n_m as scum because he knows he'll get blowback,

I mean, why scum!

Nachomamma8

will do that in Day 1?

i mean of course you're gonna say that since he's defending you >:(

Yes. Yes I am. It is refreshing to have someone defending me for once because I am obviously town here and anyone who has glanced at my recent scum meta would know it.

I am looking for players who are flippable other than me. Because I am town and they are possibly not town. Because me in town for another day is much more advantageous to town then Bulge in town for another day regardless of his alignment at this point.

I maybe would not be playing so heavily for survival at this point if I haven't been public enemy #1 for the entirety of this game (and I don't think I've fucked up significantly!!! I've been weird but I'm a weird person but I don't think I've fucked up this game to deserve this level of heat!!!).

And yeah maybe he is scum who is defending me because I'd expect him to townread me here but that's okay. Because Petapan makes me happy. And if he makes me happy then I don't want to die trying to kill him even though yes. Figured people would dislike me moving my vote.

This is gross!

Ehh I feel like the way she did was the thing that felt most genuine to me, I feel like a lot of effort went into making this look genuine if she's scum and I don't know why she goes through that

[Infinity 324]

it would be one thing if you said "why does salsa flip flop on nacho apropos of nothing"
because that might imply the impetus was "independent reeval" which i agree might be a towntell
but here she's just digesting more and more content over a short period of time, so she's just going to react based on what she reads - that is your impetus, and to me that seems null.

Yeah, but there's also an element of "this might look scummy" that might discourage her from flip flopping. It's hard to evaluate in an unbiased way "hmm I probably would be flip flopping as town here" and it's easier to just be consistent imo

[Infinity 324]

I don't know why she goes through that

...to get townread by people?

She didn't seem to have a ton of motivation for the game, and there's many other ways to get townread that she'd probably think of first than "I'm gonna flip flop on a random read for no reason"

[Infinity 324]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=85994 some salsa scum meta (do not read on sepia)

possibly not the only reason i linked that game just now you tell me

don't feel like i'd be able to meta her w/ any kind of confidence; and she played pretty well in this game only kinda just getting inched out of a win at the very end

i'm a little worried about the giant pass nacho is willing to give and i liked noddy's reaction to nacho's pushing it his way

I did read her entrance and compared it to her before I started advocating her shining light towniness. I think she's night and day here compared to there; she's inquisitive, she's a bit scattered without having an agenda attached, she's hilariously pure. I expected that notsci would be able to pick up on the same things that I am but apparently he's decided to enroll in the Cabd School of Reading Nacho (tm) and as a result is completely failing in reading me instead.

One of the big weaknesses that new scum players tend to have (and Salsa certainly had in the game you linked) is a difficulty in hiding their agenda. You'll notice a lot of her questions in that game were shallow (aka acting people to elaborate on reasons they didn't explain), she was careful was she expressed suspicion or explained her votes. She was also a heck of a lot more defensive in that game versus here (when she thought I suspected her, she called me paranoid and brushed it off vs there where she seemed to get indignant that someone was "shading her"). Here she's just carefree, more inquisitive, more likely to do things that don't have a clear scum agenda. Instead of just asking people to elaborate on random suspicions, seems like she's genuinely trying to understand the stuff going around her.

And while of course I'll be reanalyzing this read constantly, I'd be very very surprised to see this slot flip scum at this point.

[Infinity 324]

I'm just giving you what I have atp and the goal is more to help people TR me and carry me than anything else

[Infinity 324]

I guess part of what's frustrating me about this interaction is that I don't normally expect my reasoning to be 100% clear to people and often expect to have to be asked clarifying questions to sort things out. So when I do that and then am told that I'm lying it's like wtf do you want me to do? I also tend to be quite careful expressing opinions as scum, as I think most people are, so I don't really have a reason to lie about what I said because I already thought it through. If I'm trying to be unbiased, I think you have a decent chance of being town, especially if NM flips scum, but if you are town you're sorting me in totally the wrong way.

Idk why scum sends bulge to solo push me, if there are more townread members of the scumteam then that would give the push a lot more legitimacy. Even just a quantity of people pushing on me would help to give it more legitimacy. Scum play is messier that I'm describing here but I think if scum!bulge wanted to push me he would probably not go all out?

I still feel like scum wants to push through the bulge wagon after I post this and don't unvote, and prism is right that NM could've just hammered after ydrasse's vote, that's why I became more confident on the DC read this day phase

[Infinity 324]

I'm sorry that's all I have for today, I need to be asked specific questions to engage more here

I think this game is lost

[Infinity 324]

i mean the person that most implicates is _me_ imo

Lmao I forgot you voted there

Sigh

[Infinity 324]

mena's saying stuff smarter than i am but yeah

idk maybe im not like, here enough but i just find going from nm to bulge very ? all things considered

- ydra

i mean, it's not _why_ i voted there, but if you have reason to think anyone did, that'd probably be the vote you'd look at. If ydrasse is scum it's much more likely that my vote just made it possible to achieve and therefore voted then.

which, i mean, isn't a bad point either. but it's just the perfect amount of hydra dissonance to be believeable i guess. mena doing the same gets looked at much less favorably.

I'm not ever voting you this game so yeah. I get that it's believable (kinda) but also ydrasse wanted to vote NM earlier over bulge and I'm really not giving slots benefit of the doubt here since I have way way too many TRs

[Infinity 324]

I'm not unvoting idc

[Infinity 324]

doubling down on it and being like SUPER confident on it being part of PoE from TRing (kismet, noddy, VFT) despite there being 4 slots there

I also have a very hard time seeing either cakez or prism as scum. So obviously even if one of my townreads is wrong you and mom have to be scum for this to make sense.

[Infinity 324]

Who's scum

[Infinity 324]

I'm scum with cakez and mom then? Idk I don't think you can really confidently TR DC in this gamestate but /shrug, you know mena better than me

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE:

[Infinity 324]

I don't really care personally, but I feel like I owe skitter something if she actually cares about this game

[Infinity 324]

It does kinda feel like scum are waiting to quickhammer here, not really sure what that means about the gamestate.

[Infinity 324]

i'm not 100% sure what the solve is but i'm having a hard time seeing mena as scum here, yeah
i was also thinking it's scummy that you were ignoring me on mena but this is throwing me for a loop a bit tbh

Honestly I forgot you had such a strong TR on mena, I can't weight everyone's townreads too heavily though since I feel like I have good reasons to TR bork, you, cakez, notsci, and prism though. Maybe I'm supposed to do my own meta check on notsci or something but I really don't have the energy for that.

[Infinity 324]

I'm just gonna assume cakez or DC are scum, me and cakez voted DC for about 12 hours right?

[Infinity 324]

not feeling this at all?

Idk the game just feels weirdly low activity

[Infinity 324]

Now I'm paranoid of a VFT/DC team

sigh

[Infinity 324]

@infinity, will you be around tomorrow to talk to me? i feel like this game is a lost cause atp but i want to try and hash out some things with you because i don’t... basically i feel like you’re imposing some feelings about how i should be playing / what you expect of me and weaponizing that if it makes sense, wrt the obvtown comments among other things, you’re the person i think i’d wanna vote today but my votes have kinda sucked recently so yeah(this is a very very shallow thought but i’m also falling asleep trying to write this and i meant to post earlier)

Yeah that's fine, if you're town here I kinda get that but also this game has a lot of towny players and I don't see who's scum if you're town.

[Infinity 324]

I'm feeling a bit more energized for this game after doing some thinking. I still feel like I want to elim DC, but I also want to talk to people

[Infinity 324]

I'm gonna hold my cards close to my chest a bit, but

What's your read on VFT again, and is there anything that's pushing you towards being paranoid of notsci instead?

[Infinity 324]

still think VFT is town, and if i'm getting paranoid on notsci it's mostly due to lack of presence and other reads (iverson/cakez/DC) having less 'stale' data to work with on, the former two of which i probably feel different about now than i did when day started

Ok, for me I feel like when I don't know who scum is I tend to try to look at the strongest scum players. I feel like it's more likely skitt got her motivation for playing scum back than notsci suddenly expanded his scumrange, and the way you're expressing this it feels like it might be recency bias on your part. The problem with VFT being scum is lilith tbh, who is quite towny for her but me and mena are probably the only people who would see that, so my theory of a DC/VFT team doesn't seem that likely. Maybe I should just check notsci's meta, but it's like, if your notsci read was sheepable before, what's different now? Maybe he's just busy or demotivated? Idk

Sounds good ydra

[Infinity 324]

Talk to me about cakez, he feels very unaligned to me

[Infinity 324]

Yeah that's fair, it might be best to not talk about it anyway, but I want to talk about this game while I'm still motivated

[Infinity 324]

I don't think it's that out of character for town-cakez to have sloppy progressions. I feel like at a certain point in the day if all your townreads want to go in a different direction from you most people just give in, and that felt like what 1305 was about.

It's like, you don't think cakez is scum with mara right? So who are you voting besides DC today? I'm assuming scum could've quickhammered DC by now if possible, which means either DC is scum or cakez is scum or I'm scum with prism. Part of what I was thinking about last night is how I really don't see prism as scum here, idk if you agree but I don't see him doing loopedy loops trying to avoid getting limmed here as scum when he could've just drawn less attention to himself by letting NM hammer. And the fact that prism is so ~messy~ here is like, why is he putting so much effort into getting into a mental headspace as scum if people are going to not understand it and write it off anyway? Idk

[Infinity 324]

Idk if this conversation is really helpful to anyone, but I want to see where you're at

[Infinity 324]

Fair enough, I will actually do that meta check the

The logic of "notsci isn't here therefore scummy" I'm pretty skeptical of though.

[Infinity 324]

Neither have I

[Infinity 324]

Fair enough, I will actually do that meta check the

The logic of "notsci isn't here therefore scummy" I'm pretty skeptical of though.

Even putting aside RL stuff, I don't blame anyone for getting demotivated when we have such a small chance to win. Depending on the player, it could actually be town-indicative.

[Infinity 324]

But I was one of the main pushers of both those wagons? Bork talked earlier about how he voted bulge at an opportunistic time, and how your nacho vote looked pretty opportunistic too. Obviously it's +scum to be on a CW to scum but there have been a lot of townies on CWs to scum this game.

[Infinity 324]

I guess it's like, if it's true that notsci hasn't ever kept up this level of motivation as scum (up through d2 anyway), that should be pretty good reason to look elsewhere?

[Infinity 324]

I'm told he's already out of his scumrange, will get back to you once I've meta'd him

[Infinity 324]

I never said anything was out of prism's range, I just don't think it makes much sense for him to play the way he has as scum.

[Infinity 324]

No one vote until I talk with ydrasse

[Infinity 324]

Yeah that's definitely fair re:notsci.

[Infinity 324]

Ydrasse I'm going to sleep we can talk tomorrow

[Infinity 324]

I think there's a decent chance DC is scum with VFT, since skitt doesn't have a huge chance of being wrong about DC. Mom is almost certainly town in that scenario. Of course DC could just be town but I'm still not convinced.

[Infinity 324]

Ok, as long as you're voting DC over mom today

[Infinity 324]

Skitt what's your read on me atp

[Infinity 324]

Hi I'm up for a bit

[Infinity 324]

I'll be honest, I really feel like you're scum here. What would help is like, giving me a picture of the game that doesn't involve you!scum. Is mom scum and scum are trying to save her by attacking you? If so, who are the scum doing it? The last few pages have some useful info I think.

[Infinity 324]

No no no

[Infinity 324]

Skitt should be TRing me now I'm pretty sure, she was all "look at this drop off in activity" and then when I get another burst of activity she doesn't stop to reconsider. Especially when she already reconsidered for a moment when I unvoted DC

With VFT scum mom is almost always town

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: DC I don't want to let ydrasse get away after specifically wanted to talk to me and then basically blowing me off twice

[Infinity 324]

How about notsci

[Infinity 324]

Skitt should be TRing me now I'm pretty sure, she was all "look at this drop off in activity" and then when I get another burst of activity she doesn't stop to reconsider. Especially when she already reconsidered for a moment when I unvoted DC

With VFT scum mom is almost always town

[Infinity 324]

Mom also has a townier ISO than DC in a vacuum, the response to the nacho wagon felt like she was by herself against a bunch of scum who all had an agenda to kill nacho.

[Infinity 324]

I still mostly think Mara is town; i think her reaction to the nacho wagon is definitely the road not taken and she could've easily hopped on Nacho as a survivalist effort or made herself the 6th vote knowing i was basically going to hammer at deadline and wanted nacho more than i wanted her

peta was also the biggest driver on that wagon and it makes sense as scum if he was going to come in w/ the express purpose of defending nacho it was with the intent of creating a wagon on another townie

instead she said she'd rather take the no-elim - which as she correctly pointed out, isn't anti-town on D1

This ironically still makes sense

[Infinity 324]

Like I dont understand why people are keen to just not respond to me

I dont understand how cake goes from not wanting to touch NM at all D1 to tunneling the shit out of him D2

I've cased both of them, and even after the NM scum flip no one is willing to entertain my theory?

Can we revisit this later? It's really just you or DC today

[Infinity 324]

not gonna lie this is skeeving me out Infinity

What would help with this? I very strongly believe this game only makes sense with a VFT/DC team, and my strong preference for DC over mom is mostly a reaction to skitt going the opposite way. Like you know skitt isn't out of her scumrange here yeah? When the game doesn't make sense you have to look at the strong scum players

[Infinity 324]

Lilith and skitt both suddenly started pushing mom pretty soon after the cakez/prism stuff died down

It's so transparentt

[Infinity 324]

I've been pushing DC the whole day, yes I changed my read on VFT more suddenly but I think the way I did it looked a lot more natural than VFT

I feel like the way this is playing out makes it clear one of DC/mom is town and the other is scum, if you think I'm scum with mom no hard feelings but this is an important decision.

[Infinity 324]

Why does scum!me suddenly get a burst of motivation in a very slow game I'm probably going to win anyway? It makes much more sense that I suddenly came to a realization

[Infinity 324]

i concur
assuming mom scum here then I can definitely conceive it being inf and notsci as the last two

asdifisnri we could've quickhammered

[Infinity 324]

its not just VFT tho Kismet agrees and kismet is very obviously town

So is prism though! DC is actually confirmed scum if prism is town fypov

[Infinity 324]

Honestly you don't have to trust me on this but I TR prism more than I TR bork

[Infinity 324]

I guess, I sorta feel like she'd at least check the thread once in a while to see if a quickhammer was possible

I also could've kept my vote on DC to make it easier for her

[Infinity 324]

Imo notsci pushes on you harder to avoid a buddy being limmed.

[Infinity 324]

Honestly if there was anything I could do to get people to trust me and vote with me I'd do it but I just don't know what that is.

[Infinity 324]

I was trying to say that from cakez's POV either prism or DC is scum because of quickhammers, but I guess he disagrees.

I think it's very important to vote with town too because if 2 town are voting wrong we lose anyway. We have to assume that most of the town are voting correctly.

[Infinity 324]

Skitt should be TRing me now I'm pretty sure, she was all "look at this drop off in activity" and then when I get another burst of activity she doesn't stop to reconsider. Especially when she already reconsidered for a moment when I unvoted DC

With VFT scum mom is almost always town

i mean you've been ignoring my read on someone that you know i'm good at reading in order to push through someone i think is town in lylo, and are now turnign to calling me scum with them
from my pov what am i supposed to be thinking abt u here

~ skitter

I'm out of my scumrange, does it matter that I think you're scum with one of your townreads? This is silly

ok i just feel the need to point out that we've had 3 different people within quickhammer range, and i think all for at least 12 hours. so unless we want to posit that the scumteam is exactly mom/dc/prism, i think part of the explanation is that scum is not necessarily being very good at quickhammering this game

~ skitter

I think it's much more likely that at least 1 scum was either voting or voted each time

Like I dont understand why people are keen to just not respond to me

I dont understand how cake goes from not wanting to touch NM at all D1 to tunneling the shit out of him D2

I've cased both of them, and even after the NM scum flip no one is willing to entertain my theory?

Can we revisit this later? It's really just you or DC today

and like mom's post to me, in the context of imminently getting wagoned, is, uh, Not Great,so i dont' love that this is your only response to it

~ skitter

It shows lack of awareness of the gamestate, which if anything is towny. I don't see the scum motivation of trying to go after cakez when that is clearly not happening

not gonna lie this is skeeving me out Infinity

What would help with this? I very strongly believe this game only makes sense with a VFT/DC team,

and my strong preference for DC over mom is mostly a reaction to skitt going the opposite way

. Like you know skitt isn't out of her scumrange here yeah? When the game doesn't make sense you have to look at the strong scum players

idk what the bolded means

I only started being against the mom elim when you started pushing it so strongly

Why does scum!me suddenly get a burst of motivation in a very slow game I'm probably going to win anyway? It makes much more sense that I suddenly came to a realization

because if we live in a scum-mom scum-you town-dc universe i'm slowly wrenching away this win ...

My burst of motivation came before your mom push so ?

[Infinity 324]

This is just like DnC, you're not reading me based on my play but are instead scumreading me because it fits your agenda

Town!skitt doesn't use shallow logic like "you're not listening to me therefore scum" she uses what she knows about me and how I tend to play as both alignments

[Infinity 324]

if VFT is scum I'm fine with this it's not even good play just overkill because pushing me was a win.

I'm not sure there was actually support for an elim on you? Maybe early on I would've voted you? Idk

[Infinity 324]

Ok, you've kinda forced my hand, I actually think bork is the last scum *gasp*

You don't have to believe me but I wanna say I called it

[Infinity 324]

I can't see a viable third partner for DC/mom

[Infinity 324]

Now we wait for DC to get here and quickhammer

[Infinity 324]

I am a "One point at a time" kind of player right now even if hypothetically you can work backwards and divine teams I'm not going there atm

Yeah, I think the best play late game when you're losing is to try to piece together a full solve, because otherwise you're too in the dark. If you're wrong, you probably lose anyway, and you're more likely to be right than you'd expect because people play more transparently to their wincons at the end of the game. But if bork is scum and suddenly exploded out of his scumrange here I don't blame you for losing to him.

[Infinity 324]

I think notsci pushes you cakez rather than going towards DC but w/e

Until DC posts it's not confirmed

[Infinity 324]

Maybe I'm an idiot and notsci just ran out of motivation later than he normally does

It's so hard to believe when you're this close to beating a town of juggernauts and you just gotta vote town in order to win

[Infinity 324]

But he didn't even give himself the chance to try to elim you

[Infinity 324]

As town? Lol

[Infinity 324]

There's no room for tactics, this game is over as soon as DC logs on

[Infinity 324]

I don't even care at this point if Mom is town I'm exhausted with this game

I can really say I blame you.

[Infinity 324]

Ugh this BLOWS infinity will have to hammer if my team theory is right

I know I'm a townbeard right now if you're right, but notsci is one of the people that makes the most sense as a DC/mom partner. We'll get there when we get there but I'll probably be with you.

[Infinity 324]

why the shit are we still doing this if you think mom is scum even w/ me or noddy lol

I don't I'm just going into hypotheticals with cakez

[Infinity 324]

Honestly, I'll have a hard time seeing DC as scum with skitt town, that's the main thing holding me back from your solve cakez.

[Infinity 324]

Night all

[Infinity 324]

I could probably go into why exactly I was very wrong though it would be a bit painful. Besides that it's like, ok vote me atp

Do people have thoughts about what scum were doing yesterday? I feel like scum could've pushed through many other mislims

[Infinity 324]

I mean from my pov trying to flip dc and obstruct the mom wagon ....

There's nothing I can do here except try to explain myself and probably fail lmk if that could possibly help

[Infinity 324]

To sum up my last post I don’t really see a world where Mara isn’t the wagon yesterday and I feel like scum would see it as well

This seems absurd to me?

[Infinity 324]

One of that OG townbloc has to be scum

Why?

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: notsci

This is an ok answer to what were scum doing yesterday and 1v1ing me seems like a pretty reasonable thing to do as scum here

[Infinity 324]

Because I find it ridiculously hard to believe that a townbloc of four mowed down two town back to back

This logic is a pet peeve of mine

Skitt bork and you being wrong town doesn't make it less likely that I was wrong town

[Infinity 324]

I was literally talking about petas associatives yesterday but Bork was too burnt to talk about it with me

I just think non-notsci scum would've been pushing a townie, this has nothing to do with it

[Infinity 324]

Skitt I simultaneously don't blame you for thinking I'm scum and am surprised that you don't realize I'm out of my scumrange

[Infinity 324]

Y’all had like three people tell you day one I’m out of scumrange sooooooo

Yeah, I feel like it should be more of a factor for her though, but what do I know

[Infinity 324]

I think infinity is close to just being confscum at this point and I think the bigger concern is that idk where the remaining scum is in (cakez, Iverson)

why can't inf and notsci both be scum

if I was scum I wouldn't have moved to Mom I would have stayed on Iverson or DC (assuming they are town)

Ok but why didn't whoever my partner was vote DC with me? Or why didn't we push cakez/prism when there was the opportunity? Idk if I was so desperate to (knowingly) get town elimmed you'd think I'd have a partner helping me

The gist of the insanity that was in my head last day phase is that I couldn't see a scumteam without DC or VFT (cakez and prism looking very town helped with that) and if one of them was scum then the most likely scenario was that it was both. Bork felt very aligned with both DC and VFT and then he was talking to skitter about being paranoid of notsci (where I felt like it made more sense to be paranoid of VFT) and then bork decided to vote mom over DC

[Infinity 324]

The other thing is that skitt and mena haven't had the interactions I expect from T/T them

[Infinity 324]

The other thing is that skitt and mena haven't had the interactions I expect from T/T them

go on

I think this is pretty straightforward, my baseline is PyP, you two didn't feel like you were trying to sort each other

[Infinity 324]

i'm kinda baffled that yesterday you were thinking me/dc/bork tbh

I was trying to awaken PyP!infinity but

[Infinity 324]

i'm kinda baffled that yesterday you were thinking me/dc/bork tbh

I was trying to awaken PyP!infinity but

?

I was channeling that conspiracy theory energy and considering possibilities that seemed absurd

[Infinity 324]

Notsci keeps feeling town

UNVOTE:

I guess we lose unless skitt does another miracle push or notsci is scum and I vote him at deadline

Mostly I just wanna see who scum were

[Infinity 324]

I think what people don't understand about my mindset yesterday is that I didn't really believe there was a high probability of my exact scumteam pick being the team. But you have to take risks when you're losing. I felt like one of my big mistakes from d1-2 was going along with consensus too much in a high scum % game. I thought if I did so again, it was almost certain to lead to a town elim. I had to take my shot, unfortunately it resulted in me being embarrassingly wrong.

[Infinity 324]

How is that hollow that just means it's true

[Infinity 324]

Like, I can't really argue with me being ++scum for my votes this game obviously, but this is what I got

[Infinity 324]

I'm gonna pledge my vote to skitt for today, even if that vote is on myself.

[Infinity 324]

like if Inf is town here why is she just rolling over and saying "oh no I guess we lose"
it doesn't make sense

Because everyone wants to vote me? Lol

[Infinity 324]

I think it's abundantly clear that no one should trust my reads on anyone at this point, and that includes myself.

[Infinity 324]

I'm gonna pledge my vote to skitt for today, even if that vote is on myself.

yeah this makes NO FUCKING SENSE as town

Cakez do you actually not get it? There is a sub 5% chance I survive past today. I have to do something to try to prove I'm town. If you want to say I'm doing the same thing as scum, fine whatever. But there's nothing more I can to do win the game from this position.