Mini Normal 2213 - Village (End Game)

[Andresvmb]

Oh wait Andres unvoted me, I forgot. Still, vote Gamma.

This is also a bit of a perspective slip. If you think about it, if my vote was still on, then what is Fox doing voting for Gamma? I would be guaranteed Scum to them since everyone else came onto the thread already.

Did Max say who Gamma’s partner was?

I think they argued for STD as the Partner.

[Andresvmb]

I am town. Gamma and Dragons are likely to be both scum. Their interactions and general passivity towards each other reek of scumminess.

Yeah right here.

[Andresvmb]

And that argument was already blown up because there’s no passivity between the two (which they both highlighted). So one of those arguments is Scum distancing, the other is just Town realizing the argument makes no sense.

[Andresvmb]

And it hasn’t been updated at all.

[Andresvmb]

But again I want to hear if anyone outside of Fox obviously thinks I’m wrong here. If you’re going to challenge anything I’m saying now is the time.

[Andresvmb]

I think Gamma is Town, and Fox is Scum. That last decision... I’m kind of hoping I’m not going to have to make it.

[Andresvmb]

Oh wait Andres unvoted me, I forgot. Still, vote Gamma.

This is also a bit of a perspective slip. If you think about it, if my vote was still on, then what is Fox doing voting for Gamma? I would be guaranteed Scum to them since everyone else came onto the thread already.

I don't get the logic here. You could just... be thinking I am scum?

You put a statement out in CAPS saying that the Town needed to quickly vote for Gamma because you could be hammered at any minute. And then you backtracked by saying that my vote was no longer there. But do you really think you

wouldn’t

have been hammered if my vote was still on and I was Town? My vote happened so many hours ago, that’s a completely unbelievable thought process.

[Andresvmb]

it ain't me bro

i wanted gamma first because i trusted my read. i'm not sure what to think now that we've wasted time on a kyouko lim. i'm getting paranoid about who the scum could be at this point.

This fence sitty shit is not going to cut it.

[Andresvmb]

Okay unless someone is bad mannered there’s a confirmed Scum in Gamma/Fox. I know where my vote is going. I want some clarity as to what STD and Italiano want to do, and you need to do it now.

[Andresvmb]

@Gamma your input here would be appreciated.

[Andresvmb]

{max, italiano} or {max, andres} but i can't figure out which

You need to make a firmer stance on whether you actually think I would put this much effort into a game that I could have pushed to a victory by railroading Gamma here if you really TR there.

[Andresvmb]

I could have coaxed a vote out of you or Italiano onto Gamma with NO PROBLEM whatsoever instead of bothering with this crap. As if I would want this to last much longer as Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Wait what? You’re confusing me bro.

Gamma / Fox are cross-voting and everyone has checked in. So now is the time for us to begin debating Partners because clearly that pairing has 1 Scum. That’s what I’m saying.

[Andresvmb]

The thing is, Gamma clearly doesn’t make sense as Scum this game. Who is the Partner? I have been pushing and voting there practically since D1. Italiano and STD clearly wanted the slot dead the day prior, and had no qualms voting back to back to eliminate the slot and haven’t defended there. And Max is cross-voting in ELo. Gamma is Town.

[Andresvmb]

And if you’re going to argue that Gamma has had Partners consistently distance there, that seems somewhat unbelievable since clearly UC Voyager / FMFT fit that profile much better. Yes the Scum could have all distanced from each other but based on how this game has gone, I highly doubt it.

[Andresvmb]

I could have coaxed a vote out of you or Italiano onto Gamma with NO PROBLEM whatsoever instead of bothering with this crap. As if I would want this to last much longer as Scum.

i don't know that this is true anymore

Yeah of course it’s not true anymore. But at the beginning of this day? Absolutely.

[Andresvmb]

Italiano you’re not understanding - I’m not saying they’re Scum together, though theoretically that’s not impossible. I’m just saying those two have 1 Scum, the other is Town.

[Andresvmb]

Now confirmed. The game would be over otherwise.

[Andresvmb]

i think it's most likely one of max and gamma, possibility of theatre here where they vote each other to try and clear the other? is that weird and paranoid or realistic

I mean haha it’s not entirely out of the question but it is somewhat unrealistic.

[Andresvmb]

Okay in my experience, Scum buddies do bus here, but rarely would they do so unless absolutely forced to. Nobody that is so close to victory decides now is the right time to bus. So all of a sudden I’m TR’ing Gamma and SR’ing Max/STD, and Max decides that’s the right time to vote their buddy? Nah, I’m not buying it. It would have happened in reverse - Gamma would have voted Max, and then taken all of the Town cred for the vote.

[Andresvmb]

Instead, Max takes the rogue approach and puts their Partner unnecessarily in a bad spot instead of propping them up by letting them vote for them and bolster their Town credentials? That just doesn’t make sense. The fact that the two of you aren’t even thinking about this clearly makes me wonder whether we have any shot at winning this at all, or if I’m being totally played here.

[Andresvmb]

As soon as @Gamma provides some thoughts I’m going to place a vote.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: MaxTheFox

[Andresvmb]

If this is right I guess we’ll find out.

[Andresvmb]

Italiano is in the West Coast yeah? So unless he’s sleeping super late, there’s no reason to think that the game wouldn’t be over with my vote on Max if the Team was Gamma/Italiano. So I’m fine with this being hammered at this stage.

[Andresvmb]

There’s nothing for me to re-evaluate. Now the game is in STD’s hands.

[Andresvmb]

I presume this game is lost with that.

[Andresvmb]

@samantha a flip would be nice.

[Andresvmb]

Following that little vote from Italiano I obviously would have voted there in ELo since clearly my vote for Max was correct. That’s unfortunate that I succeeded in not tunneling Gamma to still lose haha well it is what it is. I really can’t imagine that Max/Gamma are both Scum.

[Andresvmb]

@STD did you really think I was Scum here? Like what drove your decision? Was it purely driven by Gamma as an individual player? Because even if you felt that Gamma was Scummy, why not vote with a player you TR? Or do you TR Italiano over me I guess?

[Andresvmb]

You can blame Kyouko for that.

[Andresvmb]

Meh we could have still won this.

[Andresvmb]

Fake cop guilties are


I am curious, why I was killed day 1 tho.

Looked at mafia chat, and two people said "I think luke is a good choice" but neither really said why.

I was confused when I died lol

I thought you were attentive and smart. I would have considered NK’ing you there too.

[Andresvmb]

Fake cop guilties are


I am curious, why I was killed day 1 tho.

Looked at mafia chat, and two people said "I think luke is a good choice" but neither really said why.

I was confused when I died lol

I thought you were attentive and smart. I would have considered NK’ing you there too.

Like sometimes it’s not all about being correct early (that’s hard enough). A lot of the times you want to eliminate solid Town voices.

[Andresvmb]

But the Scum Team can still answer that if they want of course I’m just saying what I think.

[Andresvmb]

I can’t comprehend why in any scenario you would claim a fake guilty :shrug:

[Andresvmb]

Like it’s fine being critical in some instances and I’m personally always open to feedback (though Noraa with her comments on the dead thread can honestly fuck off), but if you’ve made a critical mistake in the game the first thing you need to do is acknowledge it and then perhaps offer some constructive criticism.

[Andresvmb]

I was pretty sure I was correct when I claimed it.

And yet somehow you were wrong

[Andresvmb]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ts_as_Town

Fun read about fake guilties

I read this and… it’s basically accurate. And it’s been around for 7 years.

[Andresvmb]

I was pretty sure I was correct when I claimed it.

And yet somehow you were wrong

You could read the thread next time you're town before you lolhammer

Lolhammering is infinitely better than the shit you pulled. Try again.

[Andresvmb]

Like trying to justify faking a guilty means you’re not thinking clearly. It had disastrous consequences here. And yet, you think it was appropriate because you were “so sure” I was Scum. It’s absurd, and it deserves ridicule. It doesn’t matter how poorly I’ve played up until then. You can sufficiently justify pushing me there and perhaps trying to get people to agree with you if you use your words.

[Andresvmb]

I would say 99% of gambits like this come from town. Since this behavior repeatedly comes from town, the people that lim it are throwing imo. I hope theres no lim all liars stans here lol.

Like this is just… it’s indefensible. The gambit could be in a vacuum thought of as coming from a Town player. It’s incredibly sub-optimal regardless. No matter how often you say it, it just doesn’t make it true. You’re conveniently forgetting the part where they were wrong. It’s egregious.

[Andresvmb]

You could read the thread next time you're town before you lolhammer

Lolhammers are pretty badddd. They are kinda game throwing because it takes just a couple minutes to check votes.

You’re defending that shit because it happened against me and you just don’t like me. You can admit it.

[Andresvmb]

But don’t act like it’s better than lolhammering. lol hammering is also very likely to come from Town. Scum don’t tend to be that careless. But where’s your excuse there?

[Andresvmb]

There isn’t one because you think targeting players you dislike with shit gambits is sensible. It isn’t, and you should be ashamed for defending that position. Look at the Scum’s reaction, or Gamma’s reaction. Or STD’s. That’s the reaction of Town that has to deal with that shit in game.

[Andresvmb]

And look - I voted correctly in Endgame and we would have actually won the game with some luck there. And I correctly pinpointed the Scummiest player, and I had praise for what you had put other there! Which means I did read. Maybe I had stuff happening in real life, you know, like I actually said I was going through. Like seriously just fuck you.

[Andresvmb]

Following that little vote from Italiano I obviously would have voted there in ELo since clearly my vote for Max was correct. That’s unfortunate that I succeeded in not tunneling Gamma to still lose haha well it is what it is. I really can’t imagine that Max/Gamma are both Scum.

I genuinely thought this game was over and I was truly hoping that Dragons didn’t vote Max. If he did there was no combination of the f3 that would’ve not pointed to me imo.

Yeah I mean if Dragons votes there correctly we do in fact always win. So the game had actually shrunk to a strict 50/50 with your vote. Which is why I also didn’t think it made sense. I would have bussed Fox hard as soon as I put a vote down in your position.

[Andresvmb]

I think there are some gambits that when used properly can be effective. I think lying shouldn’t necessarily always be punished by the Town. But lying about an investigative result? Nah, that shit needs to get executed 100% of the time. It’s horrendous, selfish play. Not trying (which you couldn’t possibly argue I did through the entirety of the game if you actually read my analysis at the beginning of the last day) is not great, but we can’t all try super hard in every game we play and there’s games where people are bad. I’ve played some really bad games - we all have. It happens. It should never justify someone thinking that they’re so good that they can railroad a player with a fake result. It’s embarrassing that this shit needs to be explained.

[Andresvmb]

As in I was wrong, but had every reason to believe you were scum based on your play.

You keep defending garbage. If you thought you could explain why I was Scum, then you should have tried that. We could have had a conversation, maybe you realize that you’re wrong. Or you give me a chance. Instead, you lock me into a position I can’t get out of. You’re claiming something about my role mechanically I know is incorrect. What the fuck did you expect?

[Andresvmb]

And also, we had a guilty result one of the days, and the other day most of you ran VFP up incorrectly and I bought into the argument.

The sad part is I thought Kyouko you were Town and defended you early, and I sheeped you onto Italiano. Like you all act like I never tried playing the game or took any positions. It’s just flat out wrong.

[Andresvmb]

I also called out Max for their play early in the game. You just want to not give me any credit because you’re desperately trying to justify really selfish play. Like I’m sorry but I don’t understand why you wouldn’t just apologize for doing that.

[Andresvmb]

And let me be honest. Kyouko didn't throw in any case. Throwing requires intent to lose. Otherwise it's just a bad play.

No I agree it wasn’t intentional. I would have actually replaced out if I had concluded that it was done as an attempt to throw the game or to target me personally. I didn’t think it was meant in that way at all. But defending it after the fact really blows my mind.