https://forum.mafiascum-staging.net/
Hello!In post 182, alstroemerial wrote:It would also be helpful for me to hear more from the following people: Cook, Mini, VFP
In post 116, JamesTheNames wrote: In this analogy shovel = time
You know, when you are trying act aloof and uncaring, at least try and be the tiniest bit internally consistent, yeah?In post 199, JamesTheNames wrote: Different shovel.
I think that's a cop out, but I'm not accusing you of voting according to meta yourself. The point was everyone else was voting due to meta, in an important phase of the game, and not once did Town!James say "Hang on folks, I don't think meta is a ever valid reason to vote someone". This game, you've said it twice, directed at two different people, right out of the bat.In post 200, JamesTheNames wrote:I never voted anyone according to meta. At the end of day 3 I was still voting Super over unwnd because they were scummier, everyone else was voting unwnd because of meta
In post 153, JamesTheNames wrote:What makes you think witholding a read you have or an idea is town sided?
Your continued dodging of the question, in spite of your #153, is noted.In post 198, Val89 wrote:Where does your "solid read" on me sit now, James?
In post 193, alstroemerial wrote:Can you please consider being a little nicer...? I still TR you and SR James but you make it very hard for me to be happy about it. Like, yes, people sleep? There's no need to get derisive when someone doesn't respond in the middle of the night.In post 187, GrandpaMo wrote:LOL I LOVE HOW U RESPOND THIS AND CALL ME OUT FOR THIS! But you being contradicting; by not even ending up responding with it.In post 162, JamesTheNames wrote:Hold up. Wait a minute. You're giving me scum points, For Sleeping? How desperate are you?In post 158, GrandpaMo wrote:Also, I very much dislike how James just left this conversation. This looks bad for you, James.
On that note, I guess I'll specify that I'll be going offline to sleep within the next hour or so, maybe a post or two still today if something happens.
It's okay Alstro -- everyone never agrees with my approaches / ideas. But I end up being right regardless of allignment unfort. However, I will tell you this -- I did give out my reads already. I already called you as possible town if james flips scum. And I am still wondering if there is possible scum in Zyla / James. This would just then imply possible scum in Zyla / Alstro and James as the second scum. But eh; I don't like this right now. Val is still my null read and Cook has a high probabiltiy to be scum at this point and is the playing the way I thought they would play it -- Dodgy scum. That's how I thought Val would play but they have been active + wallposts; so they were leaning town for me ever since. But Cook -- They have this approach different then there town games, it seems more similar to there scum games imo.In post 181, alstroemerial wrote:Here's my attempt at tackling this...In post 179, Val89 wrote:Can someone just take a moment to look at the combined ISO for James and Zyla and identify where Zyla gives her reasons for voting Grandpa prior to James' #145?In post 145, JamesTheNames wrote:Not to mention there are different reasons for me and Zyla scumreading you.
I can't find it, and it's worrying me.
86 is the first post where either mentions Grandpa, and it's James questioning Grandpa's logic toward Val. Then, in 89 (less than 30 min later), Zyla includes Grandpa in a hero solve. In 90, Grandpa says that Zyla's 89 is a bad reaction, and James fires back in 91 that it is "better than" what Grandpa did. (Interesting!)
Grandpa doesn't come up really in the combined ISO again until 118, where Zyla SRs Grandpa and votes without giving a reason. Then there's some James stuff, and then we hit post 145.
So, in short, I couldn't find the reasons either. I think the interaction in the 86-91 is an interesting find that could show James sticking up for Zyla, but it also fits in with the fact that James was already angling towards Grandpa a bit -- i.e. it wasn't out of the blue.
Now, using the powerpoint charts I made with everyone's avatars connected by red and green lines (this took WAY too long), it looks like James and Zyla both had "mutual SRs" with Grandpa as of post 117, and between there and post 180, Zyla gave James a TR. I don't have a read from James on Zyla in my chart, but there is this...
The above implies that James' attitude towards Zyla is generally leaning green, if he thinks that there is nothing for Grandpa to have.In post 149, JamesTheNames wrote:I'm assuming right now you have some form of scum proof against Zyla. If so, why wait?
This is just something for you to fall back on when you have a bogus claim in the future. If you're not scum trying to place what you think is an easy elimination onto Zyla, then what is it you're hiding? As town you should have something right?
I'm calling the bluff, you have nothing here.
One more note on this topic -- like I said, I've been thinking about GrandpaMo, and though I disagree with some of his approaches and ideas, I don't know if scum, especially newbie scum, would be so vocal and out there on Day One. Wouldn't it make more sense to try to fly under the radar than get in fights with everyone?
I do have a question for GrandpaMo, which is, do you TR anyone besides VFP? I couldn't find anyone else from you in my notes, but alotof more SR-y type opinions.
i thought i posted my other read on alstro... explaining this no?In post 196, Val89 wrote:To be fair, that doesn't really count as an explanation.In post 188, GrandpaMo wrote:lol ok i guess i have to explain why i thought alstro was scum so randomly lmfao
i thought it was obvious. i dont really scumread them, they will probably be in my townreads just because i cant read 3 ppl and the 2 ppl are acting scummy.
"I have to explain why I thought alstro was scum, actually I don't, here is reasons for a town read"
Fine, as you know, I townread them myself, and you can always change your mind if later events warrant it, but let's hear what crossed your mind when said you thought they were scum, even if it was only for a few minutes. It was long enough for you to post a read to that effect before it was recinded.
I also noted James' #162 was essentially "I was asleep, the fact I haven't fully addressed your point yet is NAI, stop trying to make a case out of nothing", but the implied part is of course "Now that I am awake, and engaging with the game, I will address it".In post 203, GrandpaMo wrote:I haven't insulted or directly said anything that was mean? I was talking about the game. Look James comes back I am assuming and says they went to sleep, that is understandable. But once they come back; including right now! and the previous night, they still have yet to respond to anything I have said.
It does appear to me if that was all we were going to get, we could have had it well before now, especially since James has been posting in the time since his #162.In post 199, JamesTheNames wrote:I'm not stubborn enough.
As in I'm not stubborn enough to vote Val89 when GrandpaMo is giving me much scummier vibes.
In post 102, VFP wrote:They're showing us up, T3.
Do you have any actual insight for us, or are you content for the newbies to continue to all the heavy lifting?In post 201, VFP wrote:Hello!
Now hold on here. I quotedIn post 195, Val89 wrote:That'll be because you quoted the first part of my response, and not the follow up where I addresed that already.In post 184, Zyla wrote:I'm having trouble reconciling the fact that you're saying you wouldn't scum read for differing reads with the fact that that seems to be what your original post was saying in that section
You do not have enough justification to say that all my town reads are scum, maybe they read scummy toIn post 174, Val89 wrote:On the other had, we have the exact opposite read on {T3, James, VFP and Grandpa}, and a different read on Cook, too - over fully half the field, and the essential difference is I can't game out the justifications you might have because you haven't shared them. I am aware the same applies to some of the other players also, and that's on my radar also.
There's a slight difference between "we don't have the same reads" and "everyone you think is town is actually scum, and everyone you think is scum I think is town".
You missed the option that I was thinking made the most sense, but I'll let James answer to see if I'm correct.Hm indeed. It might have escaped your attention, but now you see James heavily implying you are communicating outside of thread, either a straight up scum slip, or else a scummy attempt to put words in your mouth and link you together, and your response is "still town though"?In post 184, Zyla wrote:Hm. I hadn't noticed that yet, I'm still leaning town on James, but I'll be watching for sure
Gut reads can be strong sometimes, he seems to be posting in the same way as our last game together, which to me is good, even if not conclusive. I will update my read as the game goes on, but for now, he is still leaning townI'm sorry, but if all I had was a 'gut read'; then even if you thought my argument around him being evasive in the James v Val interactions when he has demonstrated that he thinks that is anti-town were total BS, even if you think there is some town explaination for the "I don't like using meta in this game when it looks bad for me, but I thought was fine in my last town game when it helped find scum" line he is trying to slip past us, even if you couldn't follow Grandpa's arguments against James and wrote those off, and even if you buy James response to alstromerial's additional reason re: the tunneling comment, then I would have thought James trying to link you in such a manner would be reason enough alone to override a pure 'gut read'.
To your credit, however, I am satisfied with your response with regards to T3.
In post 206, Val89 wrote:I also noted James' #162 was essentially "I was asleep, the fact I haven't fully addressed your point yet is NAI, stop trying to make a case out of nothing", but the implied part is of course "Now that I am awake, and engaging with the game, I will address it".In post 203, GrandpaMo wrote:I haven't insulted or directly said anything that was mean? I was talking about the game. Look James comes back I am assuming and says they went to sleep, that is understandable. But once they come back; including right now! and the previous night, they still have yet to respond to anything I have said.
The point that was left unaddressed was James' sudden jump onto the GrandpaMo wagon. I gave a clear 24 hours for James to come back to it, in case he was putting something together and we would see a response. In the meantime, Grandpa has already repromoted, in a somewhat aggressive manner that Alstroemerial has pointed out they find a little on the harsh side, without response.
When I come back to the same thing in #196 James does have an answer, although I have already pointed out I find it entirely unsatisfying.
It does appear to me if that was all we were going to get, we could have had it well before now, especially since James has been posting in the time since his #162.In post 199, JamesTheNames wrote:I'm not stubborn enough.
As in I'm not stubborn enough to vote Val89 when GrandpaMo is giving me much scummier vibes.
So, in conclusion, whilst I agreed with Alstroemerial (and James himself) that all this was initially NAI, at this point it does seem to be a pattern emerging which I do think adds to the very strong scum case against James.
How is this flailing Grandpa? Do you look at any big text and just say it's flailing?In post 26, GrandpaMo wrote:holy shit, another flailing scum, is mini + val the scum team?In post 25, Val89 wrote:All,
I am so sorry I am so late to the thread - you've all given me so much to think about, so it has taken me a little while to gather my thoughts and process it all.
One advantage of waiting until there has been a bit of back and forth is that one can start to get a sense of how the game is going to go, and start to make some initial reads. Lots to unpack here, so I'll get straight to it.
I don't like this post. Clearly, post 6 is not post 1, and lying to us straight out of the bad is not a good look. In fact, I propose that we should make it a sort of agreement between us that if any of us are caught lying - about anything - we should give strong consideration to eliminating said person as a result. In addition, the whole post - the content, the tone, the context in which it was posted just gives me a general sense of unease. It was a gut read initially, but I think it's clear I was consideringIn post 6, MiniMegabyte wrote:First!MiniMegabyteas at least a slight leanscum here already. Hence far, I have to say the rest of the players are null reads, which considering how advanced the game state is we can start to stop chucking random votes around, this took me a surprise - I was about to say we have some very good mafia players here, but then it occurred to me that if you were truly that skilled you would have convinced me to give you at least a slight townread by now.
Ahh, and here is it; the smoking gun that grants some confidence to that earlier gut read. I am aware of the existence of confirmation bias, so I have gone through all the contributionsIn post 8, MiniMegabyte wrote: (inserts shaking hands emoji here)MiniMegabytehas made very carefully several times to try and guard against that, but no -MiniMegabyteis a strong scum read at this point. Let me explain.
MiniMegabyteis clearly trying to insinuate that she has no personal knowledge ofVFP, particularly as this comes of the back ofVFPsexplicit (and as it turned out - also false) statement that they don't knowanyonein the game. Also of interest is the actual emoji chosen here - a handshake. Between two persons. To the exclusion of the rest of the group. See where I am going with this? She also specifically and pointedly says "Nice to meetya!" instead of "nice to meetyou". We all know English is one of those languages where 'you' can refer to a singular or an individual. Using it here would be natural, avoid the wavy red line most modern day browsers would assign to the word, and give her the benefit of the ambiguity if anyone paying attention catches it. Instead, we get the informal 'ya', standing in contrast to 'y'all', which to me is a further indication the introduction is addressed specifically toVFPand she wants us to know it.
The question now becomes why? In my view, the only explanation that makes any sort of sense is she wants us to think, even if only subconsciously, that this over the top, public performance is the first time these two have ever came in to contact, and they most definitely haveNOTalready said hi to each other in the scum thread. No sir, definitely not! Nothing to see here folks! Shake my hand and smile!
You might think that this makesVFPher scum partner then, and the game is solved. Putting aside my feelings towards how I would feel if my first ever game of Mafia was solved and ended on the first IRL day, I don't actually think this is the case. I thinkMiniMegabyteknew that someone might pick up on the vibes between the two here and our first thought would be that they are scum partners. But equally, perhaps that what they just want us to think? I wish there was some term to describe this, but I've checked the wiki inside out and can't find one, so I have invented one, both to refer to this situation and the approach I think we should take to try and come to some sort of conclusion as to how to deal with it. I call it Written Information Follows Overt Meta (WIFOM) - in other words, when what you see written down is in line with what would be expected from your experience you should assume that it is true. No sane scum player wants to associate themselves so strongly with their scum partner so obviously and early, so when we see it happening, we should assume that ISN'T what is happening, that makes no sense. Thus, this is all a big play, and we can actually rule outVFPas the other scum. As an aside, feel free to use that acronym in your future posts, but do try to remember who invented it and give credit every now and again.
There is the open question as to whyVFPalso lied about their association with other players, but I am going to assume for the moment that was a legitimate mistake - I know what I said about eliminating proven liars, but I don't think they would be so fast to walk it back. In contrast, I thinkMiniMegabytefully expected that "First!" lie to slip under the radar.
So;townread,VFPscumread,b]MiniMegabyteeveryone else[/b]null. I think it's pretty clear given that set of reads where my vote should go. I'm going to put my vote where it obviously belongs, and strongly feel that we should make them the elimination for the day. Obviously there is quite a bit of time left before deadline, and I would like to see some more discussion, but I will put my vote on them and see what happens with the rest of the votes. Being the first, I won't be able to hammer, but I want to make it clear that I would be prepared to hammer, and it will take a lot now to convince me to switch my vote.
With all that said: VOTE: T3
Omg, flailing scum.In post 49, GrandpaMo wrote:i don't know if you were serious at all, but I wasn't in any of the posts I made expect for the VFP townread so far. Let me go ahead and actually analyze. You are the type that is more alignment indicitivate when pressure occurs. So if town never pressures you, you are most likely to get away as scum!Val.In post 27, Val89 wrote:You know,Cookwas the other person you call 'flailing scum' not more than one page ago. Do we collectively think scum would pay so little attention to the game they would forget who they were calling scum from one page to the next? I'm not so sure myself. Slight towncred for this. On the other hand, calling 3 people scum and not putting your vote on any of them seems scummy, so I guess it's still a nullread over all.
It will, however, be interesting to hearalstroemeriainject some thoughts on the implied case you make against them in this post, though - don't think I didn't see it. If you feel that way, you should come straight out and say it, in my opinion.
First; I do not not know why you are taking any of my reads serious lol as "flailing scum" that should have gave you the hint especially when I replied to your post and realized it was just a BS post to make it seem long, with no content providing and voting someone other than your scumread xD, hence why I just said flailing scum as a joke. So please do not townread me nor scumread me for this.
Second; You contradict yourself in the second statement where you say, "On the other hand, calling 3 people scum and not putting your vote on any of them seems scummy, so I guess it's still a nullread over all. " -- I don't know if this was suppose to be a reaction post, but this quote looks bad for you. It was a RVS vote. Calling 3 people scum (technically two, I don't where you got three from), then continue to say it could be more of "null read" it seems like you were trying to manipulate the context into making it how I could be scum for this lol.
Please elaborate more on that because I don't know if you are trying to like get a specific reaction or what -- but if you deep analyze this quote, you can see how it's bad and you should admit that.
Obliged to scumread you for this LAMIST.In post 57, VFP wrote: Thats 3 pages, 3 reads! A read per page!
Ok, scum.In post 74, T3 wrote:I don't post anything over 5 lines unless I'm scum.
You don't have to overexplain it, no lims are just bad. Period.In post 77, Zyla wrote:No, no, James is right, No Elims are strictly bad for town in the majority of situations, from everything I've read, they'reonlygood with an even number of players (Such as the day after the JK jails the NK actor or victim, Doc heals the victim, or mafia refrains)
We have 9 players, 7 Town, 2 Mafia. ELo is hit when we have 3/4 Town and 2 Mafia or 2/3 Town and 1 Mafia left.
Assuming that Mafia is able to pull off the NK every night, that means that the possibilities for hitting 3 or 4 town at 2 mafia is limited to NoElim NK, MisElim NK, (4 town) or MisElim NK, MisElim NK (3 Town). If we no-elim, we only haveonechance to get our elimination wrong and still win the game, but if we vote for someone, even at random, we have achanceof hitting scum, still one mis-elim left, and gather information along the way.
tl;drnever vote no Elim unless there's aspecificreason for it
lol just saw this and i think i meant val + alsro or whoever the 2nd activiry person is other than meIn post 197, T3 wrote:In post 188, GrandpaMo wrote:lol ok i guess i have to explain why i thought alstro was scum so randomly lmfaoIn post 160, T3 wrote:In post 114, GrandpaMo wrote:wait i think alstro is scum lolwtfIn post 115, GrandpaMo wrote:nvm i think we vote james today and if they flip green, i think ur scum
doublewtf
VOTE: Grandpa
i thought it was obvious. i dont really scumread them, they will probably be in my townreads just because i cant read 3 ppl and the 2 ppl are acting scummy.
and so far you + val have done like the most contributionsIhave done the most contribution?
The alstro read seemed really out of the blue and I disagreed with it. Then the second part seemed like you trying to set up for tomorrow.
shh i was memezmerized by Not_Mafia's "flailing scum" I was scum that game and somehow won. so ima use the same tactic to scare scumIn post 213, NorwegianboyEE wrote:How is this flailing Grandpa? Do you look at any big text and just say it's flailing?In post 26, GrandpaMo wrote:holy shit, another flailing scum, is mini + val the scum team?In post 25, Val89 wrote:All,
I am so sorry I am so late to the thread - you've all given me so much to think about, so it has taken me a little while to gather my thoughts and process it all.
One advantage of waiting until there has been a bit of back and forth is that one can start to get a sense of how the game is going to go, and start to make some initial reads. Lots to unpack here, so I'll get straight to it.
I don't like this post. Clearly, post 6 is not post 1, and lying to us straight out of the bad is not a good look. In fact, I propose that we should make it a sort of agreement between us that if any of us are caught lying - about anything - we should give strong consideration to eliminating said person as a result. In addition, the whole post - the content, the tone, the context in which it was posted just gives me a general sense of unease. It was a gut read initially, but I think it's clear I was consideringIn post 6, MiniMegabyte wrote:First!MiniMegabyteas at least a slight leanscum here already. Hence far, I have to say the rest of the players are null reads, which considering how advanced the game state is we can start to stop chucking random votes around, this took me a surprise - I was about to say we have some very good mafia players here, but then it occurred to me that if you were truly that skilled you would have convinced me to give you at least a slight townread by now.
Ahh, and here is it; the smoking gun that grants some confidence to that earlier gut read. I am aware of the existence of confirmation bias, so I have gone through all the contributionsIn post 8, MiniMegabyte wrote: (inserts shaking hands emoji here)MiniMegabytehas made very carefully several times to try and guard against that, but no -MiniMegabyteis a strong scum read at this point. Let me explain.
MiniMegabyteis clearly trying to insinuate that she has no personal knowledge ofVFP, particularly as this comes of the back ofVFPsexplicit (and as it turned out - also false) statement that they don't knowanyonein the game. Also of interest is the actual emoji chosen here - a handshake. Between two persons. To the exclusion of the rest of the group. See where I am going with this? She also specifically and pointedly says "Nice to meetya!" instead of "nice to meetyou". We all know English is one of those languages where 'you' can refer to a singular or an individual. Using it here would be natural, avoid the wavy red line most modern day browsers would assign to the word, and give her the benefit of the ambiguity if anyone paying attention catches it. Instead, we get the informal 'ya', standing in contrast to 'y'all', which to me is a further indication the introduction is addressed specifically toVFPand she wants us to know it.
The question now becomes why? In my view, the only explanation that makes any sort of sense is she wants us to think, even if only subconsciously, that this over the top, public performance is the first time these two have ever came in to contact, and they most definitely haveNOTalready said hi to each other in the scum thread. No sir, definitely not! Nothing to see here folks! Shake my hand and smile!
You might think that this makesVFPher scum partner then, and the game is solved. Putting aside my feelings towards how I would feel if my first ever game of Mafia was solved and ended on the first IRL day, I don't actually think this is the case. I thinkMiniMegabyteknew that someone might pick up on the vibes between the two here and our first thought would be that they are scum partners. But equally, perhaps that what they just want us to think? I wish there was some term to describe this, but I've checked the wiki inside out and can't find one, so I have invented one, both to refer to this situation and the approach I think we should take to try and come to some sort of conclusion as to how to deal with it. I call it Written Information Follows Overt Meta (WIFOM) - in other words, when what you see written down is in line with what would be expected from your experience you should assume that it is true. No sane scum player wants to associate themselves so strongly with their scum partner so obviously and early, so when we see it happening, we should assume that ISN'T what is happening, that makes no sense. Thus, this is all a big play, and we can actually rule outVFPas the other scum. As an aside, feel free to use that acronym in your future posts, but do try to remember who invented it and give credit every now and again.
There is the open question as to whyVFPalso lied about their association with other players, but I am going to assume for the moment that was a legitimate mistake - I know what I said about eliminating proven liars, but I don't think they would be so fast to walk it back. In contrast, I thinkMiniMegabytefully expected that "First!" lie to slip under the radar.
So;townread,VFPscumread,b]MiniMegabyteeveryone else[/b]null. I think it's pretty clear given that set of reads where my vote should go. I'm going to put my vote where it obviously belongs, and strongly feel that we should make them the elimination for the day. Obviously there is quite a bit of time left before deadline, and I would like to see some more discussion, but I will put my vote on them and see what happens with the rest of the votes. Being the first, I won't be able to hammer, but I want to make it clear that I would be prepared to hammer, and it will take a lot now to convince me to switch my vote.
With all that said: VOTE: T3
Okidoki boomerIn post 220, GrandpaMo wrote:shh i was memezmerized by Not_Mafia's "flailing scum" I was scum that game and somehow won. so ima use the same tactic to scare scum
No.In post 158, GrandpaMo wrote:Also, I very much dislike how James just left this conversation. This looks bad for you, James.