Newbie 2073: Parfait (Over)

[catboi]

That’s a highly suspicious move. Putting vote pressure on Wu and then hopping off after I threatened a hammer?

I’m struggling to read that behavior through a town lens.

...are you kidding me right now?

[shwinnebego]

I think you are a very suspicious catboi

I’d vote ya but I need to keep presh on Roden. They have it comin!

[shwinnebego]

That’s a highly suspicious move. Putting vote pressure on Wu and then hopping off after I threatened a hammer?

I’m struggling to read that behavior through a town lens.

...are you kidding me right now?

Nyet

[catboi]

Explain what my motivation as scum is to vote someone up and then unvote when you threaten to hammer out of boredom. I would have gladly pretended to be inactive and let you lolhammer, then pin the blame on you day 2 after a townflip. (－‸ლ)

[shwinnebego]

Well obviously You are scum and so is General Wu

[shwinnebego]

Can’t be hammering your evil buddy just when you were starting to create a plausible rift between the two of you before the discussion organically shifted towards sussing other posters without too much blatant pressure from you, as you remain townread by most of the thread for your ostensibly earnest hunting, now can we?

[MegAzumarill]

shwinniebego, just stop with this hammer nonsense. We do not want D1 to end yet. Think about what happens if you hammer. Not only do we lose a power role if GeneralWu is one, we also lose a few days of discussion (which can be quite helpful as our total discussion in the game is on a soft limit) We also have the most on track person silenced for the rest of the game (ala nightkill.) It doesn't really matter what GeneralWu is, we don't want them hung until later.
I understand you may scumread catboi from unvoting there is the objectively best move for town.

As a general note, voting is used for pressure to get discussion out of a player, but hammering will cut off that discussion which is the point of the vote anyway.

[Roden]

.

But basically, when I get scum read as town I tend to think the person accusing me is likely scum, especially if I think they have a really bad reason for doing so.

Let’s see how well your self improvement regiment is working. You are scum! I think it’s evil to share your own internal process about how you react to being sussed. Real townies have no feelings, we sublimate ourselves to the collective good. VOTE: Roden

Yikes.

VOTE: Shwinnebego

In fact this might be the first serious substantive reason to vote for anyone I’ve had so far. Now we’re talking. Jokephase is over for me folks, let’s hunt some ice cream melting monsters.

You're either scum claiming or troll claiming at this point.

If you're scum, you're going for a "too scummy to be scum" gambit. Which, I'm sorry to say, really isn't going to work since I prioritize voting out anti-town due to this gambit being a really common strategy in games I've played off site. I hate losing to it and I think it's lazy, so yeah, I actually do want you gone now.

If you're town, I'm assuming your strat is to troll in order to look as scummy as possible so you don't get NK'd. Problem is if you actually are town, scum already knows what you're doing and will take this into account when trying to find PRs. Depending on the Column, if they believe you can verify yourself as a PR then they won't bother taking you to ELo. So not only are you creating unnecessary chaos for town to sift through, you're inadvertently outing yourself as a PR. Which if you aren't one, then great, you'll likely draw the NK and save a PR. But if you are one, you're literally only screwing us over by doing this.

[catboi]

Well obviously You are scum and so is General Wu

Can’t be hammering your evil buddy just when you were starting to create a plausible rift between the two of you before the discussion organically shifted towards sussing other posters without too much blatant pressure from you, as you remain townread by most of the thread for your ostensibly earnest hunting, now can we?

I was under the impression you were townreading generalwu. Do you believe that to not be the case anymore?

[Val89]

GeneralWu - Town. The fact that votes stacked up so easily suggests that one of the folks on them is worth looking at. I bet the wolves split today

I’ll hammer General Wu right now out of boredom if someone asks me to

I’d vote ya but I need to keep presh on Roden. They have it comin!

Well obviously You are scum and so is General Wu

I'm not entirely sure what I am reading here, but something doesn't compute.

Timed as it is, even if this was theoretically an attempt to deflect attention from T3, I can't see how this works any better than just actually hammering and playing the "lol, I'm such a funny joker lolololol" card tomorrow, so... colour me confused.

[catboi]

shwinn, are you trolling? （；¬＿¬)

[navigatorv]

So I went through everyone in ISO and figured I'd share my thoughts.

Wu: Between the lack of relevance with most of his posts, lack of any real substance in his reads, and certain behaviors that come off as pocketing (namely how quick he was to defend shwin without much real reason to do so) gives me a null read at the best of times, and a pretty strong scum lean at the worst. The fact that he's suddenly stopped posting after doing so almost nonstop feels suspicious given the timing, but I won't deny the possibility that he just hasn't had time to post.

Meg: Seems pretty genuine with their scum hunting. Definitely seems to find certain behaviors odd that I don't and vice versa, but that might just be because of our differing mafia experiences. Not really much else to say; very town leaning.

Roden: Honestly despite the distrust he got earlier, I tended to agree with quite a few of his points. I think it might be because I'm also one of those "anti-town actions really aren't much better than scum so may as well vote them out so they can't hamper things more" types. Behavior from people that have played with him before or who looked into his meta hinted at the possibility that he might be putting up an act as scum so he's not my highest town read, but that's still where I'm leaning on him.

Val: Honestly while the intense start seemed kinda off to me, now that things have entered a more serious stage and he's gotten deep into the scum-hunt (and coming in with the receipts in T3's case), he's gone up there with Meg as one of my strongest town reads.

T3: Probably the most constantly changing read for me this game. He's been somewhat hard to pin down due to his posts seeming to switch from genuine to weird and random with no real rhyme or reason, but between Val's posts and the ISO, he's currently a scum-lean in my book. There's a somewhat decent chance that his post pattern (or lack thereof) might be an attempt to intentionally make him hard to read without coming off as a complete troll or active lurker.

Catboi: He's probably the strongest null-read for me. His scum-hunting seems genuine, but there's something about it that feels off for some reason. I might reread the other game where I know for a fact he was town and compare them just to see, but for now I'm gonna go with the view of null but if I had to choose, he's just barely town.

StD: Honestly hasn't posted enough for me to really have a solid read yet,

Shwin: Pretty sure at this point he's just a troll. None of his posts have had anything of value barring maybe his reads list (which is questionable at best), his votes are for the most asinine reasons, and he's all but stated that he doesn't really have an interest in the actual game itself. Tbh he's made the game super un-fun to play which is partly why I've been so quiet and I think from now on, unless he starts taking things seriously or subs out, I'm just going to ignore what he says just because the chances of it actually being worth the attention are astronomically low.

Sorry if the reads are a little on the weak side, it's pretty late and I've been busy all day with work and a new kitten but I felt bad not really participating much today

[Val89]

Navigatorv

Townread.

It's a fairly short ISO, but there is decent amount of content packed in it. It isn't always this way of course, but I've tended to find scum players who post a decent amount of content will leave something at some point that seems off, and I can't see a single thing that pings me as scummy in this one.

My own reads are still developing, but where my reads and those of navigator differ, the reasons have been explained in sufficent detail (while remaining brief, which is a mafia skill I'm trying to master myself) for me to understand why those reads are developing in a different direction to my own, and the thought process seems to be unforced and something that could reasonably come from a town mindset.

Since navigator hasn't given me any cause for concern, I admit I took a breif readthrough of thier previous game, which is obviously a sample size of 1 and he did replace out of it, but what I've seen this game has the same tone and feel as that once, so no concerns there, either.

I've not really any questions for navigator, and I don't think this one is too difficult a sort; so I'm pretty confident in putting this one out there as a reasonably established read.

[Val89]

Cold meta skim suggests there's a decent chance Roden is scum here~

"Cold" meta skim?

Perhaps it is because I don't understand what that term means, but I've had a quick look-see at Roden's previous games myself (and I have just lost a game to scum!Roden) and I'm not seeing anything obvious.

Can you give us a breif outline of what you thought you might be seeing when you posted this, and if you've changed your mind since?

[T3]

I really like to fakeclaim and crumb as either aligment.

[catboi]

Cold meta skim suggests there's a decent chance Roden is scum here~

"Cold" meta skim?

Perhaps it is because I don't understand what that term means, but I've had a quick look-see at Roden's previous games myself (and I have just lost a game to scum!Roden) and I'm not seeing anything obvious.

Can you give us a breif outline of what you thought you might be seeing when you posted this, and if you've changed your mind since?

Cold as in I haven't played with him before, I'm just looking at past games. I was also not doing a detailed dive of any sort like I'd do in late-game, just looking quickly for any characteristic patterns I thought I might see. Since that point I decided his response to pressure was more likely town-indicative. I don't really care to elaborate on a read I no longer hold at this point in time.

[catboi]

The "something feels off" read on me from navigator is probably town-indicative, in general a townie playing a game with someone they have mild familiarity with is going to be skeptical and cautious, I expect as scum they'd probably just try to stay out of my crosshairs, call me town and move on. Just intuition based on general patterns people tend to have.

[Val89]

I don't really care to elaborate on a read I no longer hold at this point in time.

Perhaps so, but I'm asking because I think it would help me sort your slot if I knew there was

something

in this, rather than just something you threw out into the wind with literally nothing to back it up. That is a reasonable assumption I could be tempted to make, given I couldn't see anything and you aren't wanting to answer.

I'm not asking for details, just a one line summary of what the characteristic pattern you thought you might have saw, in general terms, will do the job for me.

[catboi]

T3: Probably the most constantly changing read for me this game. He's been somewhat hard to pin down due to his posts seeming to switch from genuine to weird and random with no real rhyme or reason, but between Val's posts and the ISO, he's currently a scum-lean in my book. There's a somewhat decent chance that his post pattern (or lack thereof) might be an attempt to intentionally make him hard to read without coming off as a complete troll or active lurker.

From brief experience with town T3, underexplained reads are the norm from him, which is why I was a little skeptical of Val's case on him, but I haven't liked his response to that pressure at all. The way he's only offering short one-liners that only barely sort of address what val was saying make him look flustered, and added to that I just feel like other people have been...more town, at this point. I think I'm due for taking a look at his ISO in full, I've not been paying him much attention as most of his posts felt

fine

in the moment but he's maybe the one uncertain point in my reads to this point.

Shwin: Pretty sure at this point he's just a troll. None of his posts have had anything of value barring maybe his reads list (which is questionable at best), his votes are for the most asinine reasons, and he's all but stated that he doesn't really have an interest in the actual game itself. Tbh he's made the game super un-fun to play which is partly why I've been so quiet and I think from now on, unless he starts taking things seriously or subs out, I'm just going to ignore what he says just because the chances of it actually being worth the attention are astronomically low.

my brief hopes that he was simply an aggressive and unorthodox player were dashed to pieces last night as he just becomes more irrational and anti-town. while i would concur that his antics have become annoying, there's seven other players in the game, don't worry so much about him and just talk to the rest of us ((≡^⚲͜^≡))

I wish I had more to talk to you about at this point, but it feels like we're relatively close-ish in terms of reads, which leaves me unsure of what to actually say to you.

[catboi]

I don't really care to elaborate on a read I no longer hold at this point in time.

Perhaps so, but I'm asking because I think it would help me sort your slot if I knew there was

something

in this, rather than just something you threw out into the wind with literally nothing to back it up. That is a reasonable assumption I could be tempted to make, given I couldn't see anything and you aren't wanting to answer.

I'm not asking for details, just a one line summary of what the characteristic pattern you thought you might have saw, in general terms, will do the job for me.

My feeling was in his town games his analysis came a lot more freely, his opinions were unfettered, there was more aggression where in his scum games he was more cautious in his play, more hesitant to give opinions, he'd dispute people's reads but was lacking in his own conclusions, there just wasn't as much drive. But, this was just a limited sample and this game started fairly slow, it's possible that was why things looked different to me and I jumped to a conclusion too quickly. As I said I think his response to pressure is more likely to come from town though and was similar to how he acted in another game, doubt he's purposefully replicating that to get townread as he seemed...very tilted by 2069 and replaced out so it's not like he'd expect that acting the same way would help him here.

[catboi]

Yeah, T3 is scummy. I think stuff like the overconfidence behind that navigatorv read doesn't feel wholly authentic, and he feels less tuned to the big picture stuff, too many of his comments are theoretical interjections that don't add anything, there's a lack of attention to most of the game being given, feels mostly like talking just to talk. The fake crumbing thing doesn't mean much to me but I feel like val's on to something.

{MegAzumarill}
{Val, nav, Roden}
{Save the Dragons} (Gut vibe that the Roden vote was from a town mindset because I had a similar reaction to the post he disliked)
{shwinn?} (not even really sure where to place him at this point)
{GeneralWu, T3}

[Val89]

Have you any opinion on his 'I won't disclose my read on catboi', catboi?

I'm struggling to think of a town justifaction for both withholding a read, and saying you are withholding a read without prompting, and I can't think of one.

I can see some occasions when you might feel it would be +town to withold the reasons for a read, in niche circumstances, but the actual read on a specific player?

Maybe there is something in your wider experience on the site that gives some idea as to what is behind that.

[catboi]

I've done things like that before, Lol. Sometimes I'll hold back a read because it's not fully developed, or I want to see how that person interacts with others before outing a read on them, or see if anyone else comes to the same read as me. I actually got heat in a previous newbie game for going "I'm not going to out my reads right away", Lmao. I just hadn't wanted to dominate the conversation and let people do their own thing. Now I try to be more open and swinn accuse me of "trying to be a leader".

That statement in and of itself is null to me, it's more his overall presence in the game and his response to your case that are scummy to me.

speaking of which...

VOTE: T3

[Val89]

That's fair enough - I've said no when asked for reads myself, but T3 wasn't asked for a read on you.

It looks to me like a completely unsolicited statement, and applies to you specifically. I don't know if it alignment indicative, you've indicated you don't think so, but it strikes me as very, very odd at the least. He could have achieved objectives you've listed - seeing if anyone else had the same read, for example, by simply keeping quiet.

Perhaps T3 himself might have some explanation as to why he thought there was some town utility to what he said, there?

[shwinnebego]

shwinniebego, just stop with this hammer nonsense. We do not want D1 to end yet. Think about what happens if you hammer. Not only do we lose a power role if GeneralWu is one, we also lose a few days of discussion (which can be quite helpful as our total discussion in the game is on a soft limit) We also have the most on track person silenced for the rest of the game (ala nightkill.) It doesn't really matter what GeneralWu is, we don't want them hung until later.
I understand you may scumread catboi from unvoting there is the objectively best move for town.

As a general note, voting is used for pressure to get discussion out of a player, but hammering will cut off that discussion which is the point of the vote anyway.

If I know that I'm "not gonna get hammered anyway" then I'm not gonna feel very much pressure due to a vote, am I?

If hammering is off the table, then votes are meaningless.