Newbie 2082 - Game Over

[catboi]

So, as I was saying yesterday, I am strongly scumreading Val and frogs right now both on their individual play and from Process of Elimination. What I am going to do now is look at how Val interacts/talks about frogsfrogs and see if they make sense as partners.

I don't know how to comment on this argument, nor should I

No, you shouldn't.

Let's hope everyone else follows your lead here and doesn't buy into the idea I'm misrepresenting the issue and it's OK to comment; whether that idea is being advanced here by scum or simply silly town. We can establish which it is as we go.

This is the first reply from Val to frogsfrogs, with frogs staying back from the Val/Greeting argument on day 1 where he tells frogsfrogs he shouldn't comment on their argument.

I don't think this interaction is telling in and of itself, he's telling frogsfrogs to step back and not intervene, I could see reasons for not wanting a partner to intervene but also wanting town to keep back.

Somewhat interestingly, he cuts out the ending part of that statement, where frogs says he is reading both Val and Greeting as town from it. He didn't want to address that part. It is actually fairly bizarre that when someone came in and suggested they could be TvT, he just outright blows past that and ignores it.

Focusing on me atp would be derailing town. I would advise everyone to look at Val/Greeting more carefully.

Honestly I consider the derail to be doing more arguing about Greeting vs Val right now.

Right on the money again. Put me down for a frog townread.

I think there is plenty to bite into already to make your mind up where you fall on the Me/Greeting debate. I note that Thyn wants to encourage everyone to look carefully without actually taking a stance himself. He wants everyone to look over here, without commiting himself, and describes shifting focus elsewhere as a "derailment". I don't think shifting attention elsewhere, even temporarily, can be consider a derailment, unless Thyn thinks there should be a train now barreling down the tracks towards the lim of either myself or Greeting today, and if he has taken such a strong stance, where is the vote? I don't think his vote is doing much where it is at the moment.

Sorting that slot is a useful excerise and basically saying 'oh no, keep looking at these two, don't look elsewhere, that would be a mistake' pings me hard, particulary if (and I don't think this is the case at the moment, but I recognise I don't get it correct all the time) implosion ends up on the right side of history, and it does prove TvT. He also seems to suggest that I am 'insisiting on getting stuck on a seemingly less important point', and that I could be motivated to 'trip up town and control the thread', but no, let's all continue to focus on that point, shall we?

That's a heavily scummy post to my eyes; but, I guess there isn't much to be done presently if he is going on V/LA.

This is really a completely bizarre reason to townread someone.

frogsfrogs is saying that focusing on the Val/Greeting argument would be a derail and a waste of time. Val says this is "on the money" and calls frogs town for it.

But, does Val actually believe this? At the time, he was still voting Greeting and involved with pushing him as scum. Why would he agree with someone saying his current push is a derail? Somehow frogs trying to de-escalate his argument is worthy of a townread, but Val shows absolutely no sign of actually wanting to de-escalate with Greeting. It's a very dissonant mindset.

I'm happy townreading

implosion

and

frogsfrogs

, at this point

Here, in his first readslist sort of post, Val puts frogfrogs down as his strongest townread, with no further elaboration. It's a fairly surprising place to put them, especially given frogsfrogs's meager contributions to the thread at that point.

It's not "does a VT claim survive until late game", it's "if you are still around in late game as scum, how do you defend yourself?" He's saying claiming VT early prepares a narrative. That's what I'm reading, at least.

It's clear other slots are getting it, so I am just going to chalk this up to you misunderstanding what I've driving at.

This is an interaction where Val quotes frogsfrogs in response to MafMen arguing with him as support for his own viewpoint, so he can say MafMen is misunderstanding him. Val and frogs seem to have each other's backs but don't talk to each other a lot.

Cards on the table, there is no world in which I will be convinced to vote either Frogs or Implosion today. Post 421 could have basically have been written by myself; the only thing it appears we disagree on at all is the degree to which Greeting is suspicious, and it's pretty much the same story as implosion. This is something that's been consistent righjt through the game (42,102, 218, 246, 283,472) are all examples of places frogs was right on the money and totally instep with my own thinking before I had come out and said what I was thinking, in a game when a lot of bullshit has been thrown around and by slots that should as least have the experiance to know better. I could make a comparable list for implosion, too, but the same basic deal applies, although there is a more fundermental disagreement there in that he thinks Greeting is town.

Here's the first place where Val actually elaborates on why he's townreading frogsfrogs at all. He simply links a bunch of posts and claims "frogs was right on the money" and was saying things he thought before he said them.

If we actually look at those posts, what do they actually say?

42 - This is actually just a waffly post that says nothing at all, frogsfrogs says Thyn and Margot voting each other for a previous game stands out to them, and says they don't seem maf/maf, but doesn't actually draw any conclusions as to either's alignment from it. I'm not sure how Val could have agreed with this post because there was nothing to agree

with

.

102 - This is shading igorsprite for saying he wants to "avoid complicating" himself. given igor got pushed to claim on that page befor val showed up, don't know what he agreed with here, unless it was something from a generic theoretical stance? It's a post that could mostly come from either alignment, to me.

218 - This is frogsfrogs saying greeting and val don't look scummy from their argument but not liking Thy saying to focus on it.

This doesn't really sense for Val to be talking about the way he did. What was there to agree with here? frogs called him and Greeting town. Does he agree with the Greeting townread? Obviously not. So really he just agree with frogsfrogs calling him town, and both wanting to push Thynhith.

246 - Here, frogs gets upset with Greeting for calling them out for activity, and defends Val as town. So, again, Val mostly likes frogs for calling him town. There's not a ton of substantial analysis here.

283 - This is literally just a post where frogsfrogs says MafMen is misreading Val's argument. So Val is saying frogs is town for supporting him. Is he saying what Val is thinking before he says it? No, he's just defending Val by making his arguments for him.

472 - This is a post where frogs says they don't get how Greeting trusted me over igortsprite. This is at least an original thought. It could be believable that they shared this view. It's also a single line on day 2 and not really substantive at all, I would think a townread ought to have a more solid basis.


None of this...really adds up to a good reason for a townread at all? Most of what Val is "agreeing" with frogsfrogs on is posts where frogs defends Val and calls him town. All this stuff doesn't really feel like a believable foundation at all, there's no depth of discussion in reading, simply that two people are supporting each other

[catboi]

Now, here's where I put on my SE hat and say this is not typical scum behavior. Partners usually don't try to make the connections between each other so obvious. But given that Val won his scumgame prior to this with a strategy of towncoring and defending his partner, Roden, with very little reasoning that simply went un-questioned, I don't think it's a stretch to think he would want to come into his next scumgame looking to see if he could repeat that strategy. That looks a lot like what he's doing with townreading frogsfrogs for very little reason.

[catboi]

You aren't trying to solve - you are trying to keep the net as wide as possible. I'm not trying to engage in a debate I think I can "win", and the fact you think that's possiblity tells me you know your arguments and logic here aren't exactly sound.

This, whether or not you are prepared to justify reads that might result in elimating suspects from the pool, is a point that is clearly recognised as alignment indicative in both directions. Frogs was given townreads for the speed at which he was prepared to eliminate suspects from the pool 182 (and even if I disagree with the conclusion frogs came to there, I agree his williness to do so was deserving of towncred).

I also strongly beleive frogs and implosion to be town. In any case, even if I am wrong, I also don't beleive that catbois attacks today on either Implosion nor frogsfrogs are SvS; and if anyone else has any suspicion that they are, nobody has said as much. That means on a red catboi flip, we have Igor (regardless), SM, Frogsfrogs and Implosion all spewed town, and only two slots remaining the partner could possibly be - Greeting and MafMen. A red flip today means we have time to flip both; in other words, a guarenteed town victory.

These are the last two posts Val makes referencing frogs. Again, the actual reasoning for a townread here is beyond insubstantial.

Notably, in the first post, he townreads frogsfrogs for "being willing to remove names from the elimination pool", parroting what implosion had said at the time, while simultaneously attacking me for "keeping options open" when I was actually trying to work from an even more narrow suspect list at the time! Now, reads can change and evolve. My reads shifted since then, althought I have returned to more or less where I was on day 1 and frogs went back on calling Greeting town. That behavior is not really scum-indicative for either of us, but Val wants to paint me as scum for having an evolving opinion of the game.

But frogsfrogs gets credit for calling two people town. I call more people than that town, but hedge slightly, because as town I am uncertain. Somehow frogs is town for...making two town reads, but I'm scum for my town reads.

Also, as an aside, in general, someone being town for making town reads early is a

really bad type of read

, in a general mafia sense. Often scum will be calling lots of people town early in the game, this is because, due to the nature of being informed, they tend to see townies as innocent more easily, often reading town behavior into things that aren't. I don't think frogs calling the fight TvT is inherently scummy, though, but it's certainly not townread-worthy, and this is something I've been saying more or less all game.

The second post, of course, says nothing at all, just calls frogs town and puts them as spewed town on the basis of pre-flipping me red. This is the bad type of pre-flip associative. It's basing a read entirely on how someone else is supposed to flip, while saying nothing about their posting on an individual level.

[catboi]

I know this is activity-based meta, but I see frogsfrogs online most of the time I'm around and they have almost three times less posts than I do. They aren't posting in any other games. What's up with that? In 221, Val89 strongly townread frogs, without really saying why.

Maybe I'm being paranoid about this, but I think it should be pointed out.

Well, if we are going to open that door; I've noticed that both you and MafMen are routinely hiding your online status.

Given that it appears activity-based meta is something you think worth pointing out, are you hoping to hide something that way?

Notably, this post doesn't come up in name-searching an ISO, but in my review I was reminded of it.

Here, we have greeting questioning frogsfrogs on why they were appearing online, but not saying anything, and Val IMMEDIATELY leaps in and freaks out at Greeting for making this argument, shading him and MafMen for hiding their status.

There's no reasonable town motivated explanation for Val having this aggressive a reaction to Greeting questioning someone else about active lurking. Indeed, as I've said before, the type of observation Greeting makes here is one that almost never comes from newbie scum.

This reaction only really makes sense if Val is partnered with frogsfrogs, and is upset that frogs is being attacked for online status reasons he believes to be "unfair", and so he starts flinging dirt and attacking Greeting and others back to try to discredit this accusation.

[catboi]

Meanwhile, from frogs:

I don't know how to comment on this argument, nor should I, but I think I'm reading both Val and Greeting as very town from it.

I really thought Greeting and Val were both town arguing from different experience but this has absolutely spiraled now. :S

I guess I'd prefer to be talking about Val's new info from 180 re: Thynhith. I think it has some merit. The mentioned posts seemed totally town lean to me, but with greater context putting some doubt on them I see not much else I like?

VOTE: Thynhith

Noted on the activity. See ya soon! o/

Honestly I consider the derail to be doing more arguing about Greeting vs Val right now. I don't think Greeting proposing to self hammer makes him look more scummy and I don't think it says anything about Val.

To start with early on, calls Val vs Greeting TvT repeatedly.

This in and of itself isn't partnery, have said that townies do this sort of thing all the time. It's maybe a little atypical for scum, even, but there would be obvious strategic utility in trying to entrench in people's minds that your partner's fight is town vs town. Notably, frogs doesn't really try to intervene with the argument. This is in contrast to someone actually trying to mediate and tell Val how Greeting could be coming from a town perspective.

I absolutely cannot see why Val would be scum and have posted the way/what he has so far. That sus from Greeting is my largest point of confusion with him, so yes, I'd really like for him to elaborate on the read, too.

This is the first time frogs actually gives an explanation of their read on Val.

Now, this is vague, but they're a newbie, so I don't necessarily expect newbies to have fleshed out reasoning for reads. They just don't see why Val would post the way they are as scum. There's something of a lack of skepticism here as to why scum can't play aggressively, but I an see a newbie making this read. I don't think it's damning. Okay. let's move on.

Sorry, but that's bullshit. It's basically the only defense that would fly.

You are trying to tell me if you are scum, you would consider shooting a claimed VT with 2 PRs outstanding, unless you thought there was a chance they were lying?

there is a good chance that any mafia in a game decides to shoot a townread player instead of doing a potentially low reward act of pr hunting
theres also shit like fearkilling

Can some other people weigh in here, please, because I am starting to doubt my reality.

Are these two talking out their arses, or have I taken a blow to the head or something?

Yeah no, sorry MafMen, you're misreading Val's argument here I think. It's not "does a VT claim survive until late game", it's "if you are still around in late game as scum, how do you defend yourself?" He's saying claiming VT early prepares a narrative. That's what I'm reading, at least.

This, however, I do find notable - for some reason, frogsfrogs is coming in trying to defend Val by explaining things for him, like he's Val's lawyer. This is the exact same thing I called out as happening just now.

This is also something that can happen incidentally, I'll explain how I read someone's post if I feel they're being misinterpreted, but it feels kind of notable that frogs is doing it on multiple occasions. I think the suspect thing is it goes beyond defense to frogs seemingly being aware of Val's intentions. It's not clear otherwise why they need to explain things for Val, rather than letting him explain himself.

I absolutely cannot see why Val would be scum and have posted the way/what he has so far. That sus from Greeting is my largest point of confusion with him, so yes, I'd really like for him to elaborate on the read, too.

Greeting, will you explain your current stance on Val more than in 225?

So, this is something, frogs steps in and asks Greeting about his stance on Val. They don't ever seem to have stepped in and talk to Val in a similar fashion about his stance on Greeting, despite supposedly having a townread there.

I absolutely cannot see why Val would be scum and have posted the way/what he has so far. That sus from Greeting is my largest point of confusion with him, so yes, I'd really like for him to elaborate on the read, too.

Curious, what makes you think that? It sounds like you've got Val townlocked

Townlocked is strong, of course, but yes he's my highest read. In their argument, Greeting and Val were both calling the other scum for their position on the role talk but I do not see what value scum!Val89 gets from his side of that. Explosive, double psychology play for town cred that involves disagreeing with three other players at once right out of the gate? I think the rest of his questioning has been helpful and well placed, too.

I feel like the defense of Val here is a little weaselly, frogs says they don't see why val gets town cred for "disagreeing with three other players right out the gate", but it's not like Val would know coming in his case would mostly disagreed with - he came in making a strong push on Greeting and it got rejected by people, that's all.

In this reasoning, Val is simply town because people disagreed with his push. It's not really a good argument at all and is really just sort of self-justifying.

Then there's a vague follow-on about questioning being "helpful" and "well placed". It's generic.

This is starting to form a pattern and I think that's where the red flags are showing up - frogs is mostly townreading Val for the sake of townreading val, and is only able to make the vaguest arguments as to why. Of course newbies don'talways explain things, but stuff like "helpful and well placed questioning" are things anyone can say about anything, and I don't really get the sense frogs is actually reading or interacting with Val's posts in any meaningful way. It's saying something just to say something.

Again this level of townlock would be atypical for newb-scum, but if the plan is to powerwolf as orchestrated by Val, I think this makes a whole lot of sense.

I will repeat though that I'm drawing on these connections as a final step and I think that both are scummy independently of one another.

[catboi]

Val89 :His outspoken-ness is a playstyle thing for sure but I think it's been placed correctly and good for town since he's swapped in. If he were scum, his play so far would have only been hurting himself and placing a massive target on his back. Have not seen reasonable explanation as to how he makes sense as scum.

So, again, this is all vague stuff. The idea that his "outspokenness" has "been placed correctly" and is "good for town" is really just a pure assumption and is saying "I agree with him". There's no real examples beyond that, it's something anyone can say about anyone, is the problem. frog's entire view of the game is essentially val-centric, what Val is doing is good for town, the people who disagree with Val are bad.

[catboi]

Catboi's super stuck in these reads and I feel like they've been leaning on their experience and ability to write create expansive arguments like this all day as scum. I want to respond to some posts a few pages back but won't be able to until later today. See the thread then.

I will say a Val flip.. gives us lots of info to go on.

Like "two scum pushed this." :/

We're in MELO tomorrow with a mislim though.

You're claiming I'm "stuck" in my reads but have given me no reason to doubt it whatsoever

[catboi]

I mean, saying I'm "stuck" sort of implies my perspective is coming from town, no?

and I'm not really "stuck" on them either, a few days ago I was screaming about how implosion is scum, my reads evolved since then because I tried to stop reacting emotionally to everything and read through the game in a methodical fashion

[catboi]

Before you go, vote me.

This post does give a bit of the fear


But, like, hypothetically, in a world where you are town here


You have made it essentially impossible for me to find you as town with your tunneling and repeated bad faith arguments



So let's try a thought exercise here: assume that I am town and am tunneling you incorrectly. What should I have been doing differently?

[catboi]

Because, make no mistake, I

hate

having to play like this and act in such a completely domineering fashion in a game, I don't think it leads to a healthy game, I would much prefer to let people operate at their own pace rather than making myself the protagonist of everything, and this is verifiable from the other newbie games I've played


But the way I've been forced up against things this day phase leaves me no other choice in my view


And my approach has been to try to continually methodically analyze everyone in the game and come to the best conclusions I possibly can, because I believe that is the best way to play to my win condition as town when I am being threatened with a wagon

[catboi]

So consider this me trying to have a moment of empathy after I've been lobbing haymakers for something like 3 days straight


This game has been a significant source of frustration for me with regard to having to deal with being cased for very bad reasons and while I think it's likely some of that was driven by scum I know not all of it is


And some of that is just the nature of the game, people are going to make mistakes

But I want to do whatever I can to get things right, it has just been incredibly hard for me to deal with, I'm doing what I can. But rather than just ripping people for misreading me I want to know what they think I should be doing.

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

I want Val to answer the question I asked

[catboi]

frogs, I'm going to ask you the same question I asked Val. Assume that I am town and am tunneling you incorrectly. What should I have been doing differently?

[catboi]

Before you go, vote me.

This post does give a bit of the fear


But, like, hypothetically, in a world where you are town here


You have made it essentially impossible for me to find you as town with your tunneling and repeated bad faith arguments



So let's try a thought exercise here: assume that I am town and am tunneling you incorrectly. What should I have been doing differently?

Val, can you answer this?

[catboi]

I know this is not going to be at all convincing but I absolutely do not pause for an attempted come to jesus/hand of grace moment here as scum after I've aggressively bullied my way into the elim I want


I am leaving now and will not be able to see any replies until later but I really do want an answer

[catboi]

Val, can you answer this?

Kiss my tail. Buzz off. etc.

Listen, val, I know I've been really short with you at times this game, and that is probably frustrating to you (but I am going to be dismissive if I feel someone is arguing with me in a scummy way, because otherwise I am playing into what they want to do)


But I really think this is an entirely fair question and I am opening the floor to you because it is very important to me so I would appreciate an answer


If one of your points is that I shouldn't have been a dick to you,

okay

, duly noted, I am sorry. But I'm more interested in why I'm getting you wrong if you're town

[catboi]

Okay, I get that you don't like that. I'm looking at my original question and I guess I should be more precise. When I ask what I should be doing, I mean: what is causing me to misread you? Why am I incorrectly tunneled? What is there that I should be seeing as town that I am not?


I am trying to have empathy here

[catboi]

This is hard for me, especially when I feel as though someone is making reads/pushes that are wildly out of line with my own perceptions, doubly so when I feel they have approached me unfairly. But I am

trying

[catboi]

I have always found it incredibly hard to deal with being tunneled as town, for a very very long time

[catboi]

(I had something more to say here on why I am sure the sort of behavior that has been exhibited towards me in some posts can't be coming from town, but on reflection I think I will leave it until post-game.)

I've been thinking about if now is the right time to explain this, because it explains why I am not buying this olive-branch, or whatever it is supposed to be, as genuine in the slightest. I've concluded it will have to wait, because it skirts far too close to the line regarding outside infulence and another side-wide rule about a taboo discussion subject. I know that is going to be unsatisifying. I'm sorry. We can talking about it post-game if nessacary.

I am not, however, going to engage in this with catboi. I think this is bad faith, and he has an agenda here. If you want to read me saying so as alignment-indicative, so be it. I'm expecting to be flipped today in any case.

Val,

please

There's a lot of issues I have with you this game, and this is probably going to lead to a lengthy discussion postgame

But you have to understand that for however flawed my play has been, and there's a lot I wish I could have done better, me being a dick and disagreeing with you is not a scumtell

And I feel like that is possibly an unspoken cause of why you've been so deadset on killing me? But if that's the case, not saying it means I can't respond to it, and instead you're arguing about other stuff


And you have to understand, the way you have come at me at times makes me feel like you are simply trying to paint me in the worst light possible - this was especially the case with you asking me about my read of igorsprite, because it felt like you didn't actually care about what my thoughts were and were just trying to "win" an argument with me so you could make me look bad

I'm making no excuses for myself, I was rude toward you in ways that are inappropriate and I apologize for that. But you need to understand the way you've been playing is terribly frustrating to deal with, and if you are town that is a huge problem (if you are scum, well, it's totally valid and I'll leave it at that)

[catboi]

I'm still willing to look elsewhere, apart from you and catboi, even for a lim today! At least in principle. But you playing like this makes that literally impossible. If you're taking this tact then I'm going to actively ignore everything you're saying right now after you're eliminated if you flip town, out of a combination of not being convinced, spite, and trying to convince you to actually play the darn game today.

I am going to blindly put my trust in you being town here. I have completely and utterly lost all appetite for yeeting Val. I wish I didn't have to push things this far to get there, but what's done is done and I have to pick up the pieces.


Who can we move to as an alternative? Who could I be misreading?

[catboi]

I want to flashwagon somewhere else but I need help

[catboi]

while I agree with the sentiment of "lost all appetite" i just don't know if that's the right attitude to have here.

I am almost near certain Val is town now ._.

And, I don't know, maybe the damage is done but I have to try, I don't want this to be a game where I screwed things up with a bad tunnel

[catboi]

I mean, it would also be completely bad play as mafia here, yeah?

[catboi]

for mafia the game gets a lot harder if they die here, because of PRs and the amount of people that would be cleared on a flip. town can still conceivably win no matter what if they get eliminated

I offered him a way out and he basically went, "no, screw you, I want to die"

And either he's way, way crazier than I'd ever imagine as scum

or he's just town

[catboi]

Val, I am going to ask you again


to please try to take your ego out of this and imagine a world where I am town

I understand this is very hard. This is what I have had do myself. To stop acting like it is outrageous that someone could ever be scumreading me here and try instead to put myself in your shoes, and consider if you really believe all the stuff you're saying.



I understand if you hate me. That is your right and it is okay. I've been pretty harsh this game.

But if you are making the assumption that no townie could ever be as mean as I have been to you, and that the only explanation is that it must be an act from scum, that is an unfortunately incorrect assumption. I think on the whole town tends to be signifixcantly more abrasive than scum, with the exception of maybe a few rare players.


And if your thinking is "screw this guy, I don't care if he's town he deserves to die regardless for how awful he's been", that is understandable but it's not really a good mindset, and I am going to ask you, if not for me, at east for the sake of the other town players here, to reconsider

[catboi]

it's been a very difficult day

[catboi]

Oh yeah?

[catboi]

I feel like I'm officially on another planet now with regard to how people perceive the game

[catboi]

As scum I never unvote on Val and change my mind completely after running him to E-1

It just doesn't happen, it would be self-sabotage to the highest degree


The immensely frustrating thing about this game is I feel like the majority of players on this site would be able to recognize something like that but I'm having to explain myself here and still get blank stares

[catboi]

And it's not the selfvote itself, because I was initially calling BS, it's some of the other stuff Val said.

[catboi]

it's very specific stuff that I probably can't sell you on, I just have a way of getting a feeling when I'm wrongly tunneling someone

[catboi]

whos scum!frogs buddy then if you had to wager a guess?

I'm not sure I want to push frogs anymore, either

[catboi]

If I make the assumption that I have been aggressively tunneling town all day and scum have been content to hang back and let me go ballistic and do their work for them


Then I think the person fits that profile

VOTE: MafMen

And I think that is the person I am most likely to be misclearing

[catboi]

I am not going to hammer val now and if the day ends in no elim I don't care because we're on an even number of players, it's not going to lose an elim


Val should quit being petty and unvote himself, he can vote me again if he wants

[catboi]

If it goes to night with 8 alive and someone dies, we still have 7 alive tomorrow with 1 ML, we don't lose any chances, it's not the same as a no elim on day 1

It's not ideal in that I'd rather flip mafia to have a better chance of helpful night actions from PRs, but there is absolutely no reason for me to compromise on a wagon here


Of course, if you believe we should be eliminating someone no matter what, you have not really been helping that cause at all by not taking a stance on who to vote

[catboi]

Val should quit being petty

Val is playing the best way, as he sees it, to achieve his wincon.

You might disagree, in this specific situation, or in general, but I assure you, you might find me obnoxious, or petty, or a selfish prick, or whatever other charges are being or will be leveled against me, playing to achieve my wincon based on what I believe the situation is, in a game where I can't trust anyone else's motives, is all I've ever done.

My elimination here is still, to my mind, the best chance towards a town victory. Scum LOVE having me around in a F3 or Mylo, as you catboi, and SM both have first hand experience with.

If you or anyone else disagrees, you can not vote me, and you can make that case to the others, but my vote will be staying where it is, and I'll continue to make the case that this is the best course of action.

hav you ever considered why that is

[catboi]

Val have you ever once considered the possibility that you may have an incorrect read

[catboi]

Yes.

From what I've seen, you seem to have a lot of trouble with that

[catboi]

In conclusion, Val89 looks like he's playing a game of his own.

I think this is a basically correct assessment that doesn't have a real bearing on his alignment

[catboi]

I can write more words on this but in this case you might want to check his meta

What I see you doing is making a more or less true assessment of his play that is not actually a scumtell and can squarely fit into the mold of a town player with an outsized ego.

[catboi]

What I also think is when I finally pushed him past his breaking point it came in a towny way and not a scummy way

[catboi]

Would you be willing to vote out frogsfrogs or StrangeMatter? I'm also open to the possibility of voting out MafMen, but would much prefer either one of these two.

I'm not compromising on strange, frogs would maybe if I had to, I think MafMen is more likely to be a hit though

[catboi]

Greeting, look at MafMen trying to say you/Val was scum theater and tell me if you think that's a theory a townie really has?

[catboi]

This is the clearest that greeting has been about reads all game and I still don't trust it.

why's that?

[catboi]

uuuugh this game

[catboi]

Greeting, look at MafMen trying to say you/Val was scum theater and tell me if you think that's a theory a townie really has?

do not treat that as the main point of my reads
i found them both individually scummy and so i looked for potentially fake interactions? is it confbias to actively look for something to support my theory? yes, and im conscious of this which is why im more hesitant to vote val

in all fairness greetings recent posts lead me to believe im an absolute clown but whatever

okay

I just

Have trouble believing you wouldn't feel the dissonance there

[catboi]

understandable

[catboi]

I'm just kind of lost at this point

[catboi]

I think this is an acceptable direction for the game to go in, provided Val gets over himself and plays.

You omitted ".. the way I want him to." from that quote, there, it appears.

Why do you think just because YOU have decided that catboi is town that I have to take that read as gospel. You are asking me to play around around a read that I think is wrong, and in doing so, effectively play against my win condition, or else I'm not playing at all.

The hypocrisy in here stinks.

he wants you to not keep voting yourself

[catboi]

thinking about any wagon right now is painful

[catboi]

UNVOTE:


one minute

I know, I know, I'm horrible

[catboi]

My thought right now is a really ugly thought especially for this type of game


but I have tried everything in my power to break val out of his tunnel here, and he has refused to budge

If we are both town I believe leaving both of us alive is game-losing if it goes into ELO

if I had strong confidence we were catching scum I would let it go through

but this was kind of a whim and a prayer vote and I'm nervous


I feel like the best way for town to have a chance is either flip val or me

[catboi]

bro just end my suffering oh my god

look, thinking about this game is now physically painful for me but I don't have a ticket out of it

[catboi]

???????????/
now you agree with him?!?!?!!

I agree with him only because he has made it clear he will never at any point reconsider me or even engage with me anymore

[catboi]

i KNOW ;_____________________;

[catboi]

VOTE: val

just resolve us today, I don't want this to possibly lose the game

[catboi]

well. TT_TT The premise is true, maybe, but I hate it

so do I

[catboi]

i dont see how you cant just ignore val either
youre confident hes town right? then why PL him?
you were able to garner enough players on a wagon without his commitment so i dont see why you get paranoid

because in ELO it takes 1 incorrect town vote to lose the game. It can't get ignored.

[catboi]

I'm not lol

[catboi]

I'm giving myself a stomacache

[catboi]

For What It's Worth when the game feels hard it's usually because someone is being miscleared. That's a general point of theory to everyone

[catboi]

I appreciate the effort

Sorry for making this so exhausting ._.

[catboi]

there are like a million things i wouldnt do as scum here

[catboi]

catboi, how do you feel about you vs val being the lim if it comes down to the two of you?

sad but probably good for game health

[catboi]

watch it be like the stupidest thing possible like greeting/igor or something

[catboi]

also increasingly paranoid of implosion as things have progressed but can't say real words about it

[catboi]

i guess in concrete terms my fear is he's just letting me hijack the game and throw when it won't affect him

[catboi]

it's possible i'm just getting AtE'd hard by val

[catboi]

very sick mind games if so but that is what I return to at this hour and think about the way he has chosen to respond

[catboi]

I think it's possible he was playing up the offense because that is what I have seen scum do and it was his sole focus

mainly guilt tripping me

god damn, though


I think if I work away from the emotions again I'm back to the play not coming from town


been a roller coaster ride for me

[catboi]

I'm just working through my own memories of past experiences, if anyone wonders why I'm doing this in the dead of night

[catboi]

i am however greatly annoyed that greeting self hammers with (i think) 7 hours left on the clock
if he genuinely had his head in the game he wouldve pushed a cfd until the last second

I will agree with this sentiment, at the least. It is a frustrating tendency to give up too early in newbie games.



I still want to say I told you so on Greeting being town to everyone who voted him, and it's very frustrating to have extensively towncased him and have it get basically spat on. But what's done is done, let's move on.

[catboi]

Surprised and relieved at the lack of a kill, didn't think it was likely at all as there's only 3 people who could plausibly be the jailkeeper at this point. That gives us an extra elimination we frankly don't deserve.

The jailkeeper should claim today with their targets, absolutely. I assume they targeted the scum carrying the nightkill, because I wouldn't expect scum to not be aiming for a PR with how narrow things were.

[catboi]

Lol, there is absolutely no way on earth Val-town comes into today, having completely blown two elims in a row, and still thinks I'm scum. Just no re-evaluation or self-awareness whatsoever.

[catboi]

Yes, I tried to lead a flashwagon ton my teammate off town yesterday and went to sleep with him as the leading wagon. Good job.

[catboi]

The jailkeeper should claim today with their targets, absolutely. I assume they targeted the scum carrying the nightkill, because I wouldn't expect scum to not be aiming for a PR with how narrow things were.

i was the target again

You don't know that - it's possible you were roleblocked by the mafia with the mafia trying to kill someone else.

[catboi]

It worked out I guess. Still, probably a mistake to end up with them being the same standard as most players but it worked out.

Also, I have to ask: is this you

not

claiming jailkeeper? Because if so we really need to talk.

[catboi]

Setup Information

NewD3 (as designed by RadiantCowbells):

	A	B	C
Mafia	Mafia Roleblocker	Mafia Rolecop	Mafia Goon
Row 1	Town Cop and Town Doctor	Town Tracker and Town Friendly Neighbor	Town Cop and Vanilla Townie
Row 2	Town Jailkeeper and Town Tracker	Town Jailkeeper and Town Friendly Neighbor	Town Jailkeeper and Vanilla Townie
Row 3	Town Mason and Town Mason	Town Tracker and Town Doctor	Town Mason and Town Mason

If there is a town jailkeeper and town tracker, there is a mafia roleblocker. So it's not guaranteed that the jailkeeper targeted igorsprite.

[catboi]

I have no idea. It's possible they just banked on being able to block you and kill the jailkeeper.

[catboi]

...lolme, I guess. But well played on your part.

That means one of two people I was struggling with is going to be cleared, though, and that feels very useful!

[catboi]

If we don't vote Igor out tonight (i'm not implying that's the default, i just think we're a long way off from verifying him) I could offer to check his role by asking him to tell me who I visited, if anyone?

Seriously though WTF

[catboi]

With 7 players alive it takes 4 votes to eliminate.

No, we're not in MELO.

[catboi]

I'm not doing this with you. Not again.


I'm reading some things and I think I was probably misclearing Strange >_>

[catboi]

lack of concrete stances feels very much like strange-scum. By comparison, has reads, actively voices and votes suspicion, and generally tries to solve the game

[catboi]

oh my god lol I cannot stop getting targeted for the N1 kill

[catboi]

also I'm so sorry for putting you through the ringer yesterday >_>

[catboi]

Even then in another one of my Town games in the Open Queue I really didn’t do anything, then flipped town. Plus, I’ve only played two (really one if you don’t count how little I played as scum in that game), so to me while not unfounded this seems like a very weak argument.

It is admittedly a limited sample. I'll take a look at the open game.

[catboi]

I'd actually be surprised if Strange carried the kill after everything that happened yesterday.

Admittedly I've been paranoid of igorsprite through the entire ending of yesterday and I feel as though the guilty fakeclaim on me yesterday in light of me being targeted by the jailkeeper comes across in a worse light? That entire claim

could

have been done for the sake of outing the jailkeeper in response.

[catboi]

...I feel like nightless exploder pandemonium isn't a good baseline for anything. But you still had reads there? I probably need to reread you this game.

But I feel like mechanically this is +town for you, actually, dwelling on it.

[catboi]

I probably should claim a target in the event that we lim a goon as well, though it matters somewhat less, and I'd want it to be someone else. If we eliminate the goon today then we gain 2 clears.

It actually does matter to call a target in that instance, because either igor claims a report, meaning you were blocked, or igor claims blocked, meaning your target is cleared. Either one puts us in a mechanical autowin.

I think a red flip today means a mechanical lock no matter what.

[catboi]

My gut check hip fire read is that Val + MafMen just isn't a thing, at all, and end of day yesterday makes me feel like frogs/mafmen isn't, either, because frogs was very willing to jump that vote

Looking back at frogs's iso it's not the strongest thing in the world, but mafmen reacted with exasperation/disbelief at frogs suspecting him, he didn't really push back and kept townreading frogs and i feel like he'd more likely distance from a partner?

[catboi]

I'm just not sure there's a teamsolve that fits him, unless it's...igorsprite again >_>

[catboi]

I guess strange is possible but weh, not sure mafmen flops over like that as RB

I probably need to actually pay attention to strange's posts since I had written them off as obv-PR


LMAO, fck me if pseudoaristotle asked to be tracked as a mafia goon - I just realized how outrageously big brained that would have to be

[catboi]

No I definitely lean toward it being a towntell, that kind of daffy outside the box play from a newbie is

usually

town-indicative

[catboi]

In particular I felt like igorsprite was just starting to follow my view of the game as it became apparent that I was going to kick and scream and not let myself go down, and I got wary he was just telling me what I wanted to hear.

igor/mafmen does make a touch of sense though, less so for the other two? given voting patterns yesterday.

I suppose I should really buckle down and ISO strange tonight to firm up my view because I think clearing them as town makes this game quite easy to solve regardless of the outcome today.

[catboi]

I still think there is no good reason to doubt Igor here, but realising the whole of my thinking yesterday was built on faulty assumptions is humbling.

I'm glad you realized it, although to be fair I have a lot of crow to eat here.

[catboi]

I feel like me being targeted for the NK n1 makes the most sense in a frogs-scum world? I was one of the only people who was vocally a critic of frogs on day 1, from that POV I make the best sense as a potential NK to get rid of any threat to them. That is how it tends to go with newbies.

I was also anti-Val, but Val has other potential options, and I feel like attacking me so aggressively right after he tried to NK me would be the less likely play? Unless he's the type of scum that's crazy like a fox, suspecting me actually feels

not

informed.

Not even sure I had many other suspects besides that?

[catboi]

i believe i was in that pool

I don't recall FOSing you end of day 1, recall thinking you were town? I need to check, I've obviously been all over the place this game.

If we eliminate the goon today then we gain 2 clears.

how?

by igorsprite's claim, he was blocked both nights. That means implo cannot have been targeting the roleblocker, which would clear both Me and StrangeMatter.

[catboi]

I'm fine with this ┐( ˘_˘)┌

If town, would advise looking into frogs for their vote here

If scum, remember what I said about Val (don't think a townflip is great for Val but a scumflip is really bad)

Right, I actually said I felt okayish about you mafmen (in another post), then second-guessed (or third-guessed, really) at the start of day 2.

[catboi]

I think frogs has actually been very impressive in their posting since I started attacking them. I also think they still have a significant amount of suspicious posts.

[catboi]

I reread and strange is fine, I think

[catboi]

mafmen posted 935 because I was leading an attempted flashwagon on him and he was exasperated with me bouncing all over the place like a ping-pong ball yesterday. It's not really a scumtell. It was perfectly understandable for him to be sick of me hardcore tunneling then changing my mind every few days. It's been a really rough game for me.


I still greatly dislike the way frogs has pushed their scumreads but need to take time for myself to review.

[catboi]

The things I'm read from your greeting posts, catboi, are that 1. His early reads were weak, even for the beginning of day 1, but 2. His real seeming emotionality and 3. Sometimes implausible theories look like town and not scum behavior respectively.
I think I've had a difficult time engaging with emotional quality arguments in particular so far, given how subjective they are and all. I know it is more

difficult

to conjure true-seeming emotions as scum, but in the same way you've argued that scum Val likely wouldn't argue for play he thinks is mechanically wrong, I think scum greeting could have had this reaction, for real, too. He tries to push for Igor, coasting on others' dislike of his posts, and is met with a pr claim. As scum, he knows the setup now. Outlining strategies for the other, potentially totally newbie, town pr is easy enough for him to do and try for towncred, and I know I considered him town at the time. When Val is put in the game and begins really explosively arguing with he and implosion, I think it's reasonable for scum to actually have deep seeded belief about what the mechanically correct route is, actually be upset by Val's debate style, and three, be annoyed that they're not being read as town for what they think they should be being reads as town for. There's also that MafMen and implosion are fighting Val here too, and it isn't for a page or two that the dust settles and Val gets a town read. Scum greeting doesn't have a reason to not get into the argument here, imo.
It's a similar situation with his reaction to your VT claim. Greeting went into this day talking about being unsure of the setup, Igor starts admitting to interesting lies, and then you vote him and say that he's lied again. Greeting might fully think that policy limming for lies there is good, and he might fully think that it'll be more convincing to others (because the atmosphere was more anti igor at the time he agreed with you).

And that the only player who can corroborate Igor's story is the JK, by coming out.

I don't think he's made not scum by his reactions here, and that his reasoning for pushing Val and Igor isn't strong, and that it's really convenient for scum if these players are limmed. I do not think his reads have improved through the game and I think there's a logical line from his more odd posts and theories to scum motivation.

Revisiting this. I again think this is an instance of

forcing

a case where frogs talks about how all these things

could

be reasons why Greeting is scum but never actually explains why they are

more likely

to make greeting scum.

[catboi]

>_> Hi pony

[catboi]

I feel like the combined votes on mafmen's slot are fairly telling in a phase where bussing is an autoloss. I'm going to kick myself if I had the solve yesterday and let myself get AtE'd out of it.

[catboi]

Andante is atually someone I know from EM! I am terrible at reading her. I assume she did not know this was my alt.


...maybe I'm being overly-generous, but I feel like the immediate fight with and accusation on Strange is way too crazy to be distancing? Even if she were a bit clueless on replace in, it'd be so bad >_>

[catboi]

implo I really don't think the mafmen slot is scum, the play here is just absurd for basically any conceivable team. I can try to case frogs for you?

[catboi]

Having an illogical/clueless perspective is not a scumtell. Andante placing herself in a literally impossible perspective with her opening post is much more likely to come from town, because town are uninformed. She just has really bad reads.

[catboi]

Right now my only concern with you is that I never really bought you being the n1 kill that much (your presence d1 wasn't very large, and Thynhith was cursing your name on the way down). If you're convinced that no MafMen team makes sense and are persuading me toward frogs over MafMen then I do need to note that that can be a point in favor of you/Andante being the scumteam if frogs does flip town. But I still do have a hard time imagining a lot of things you've done this game happening as scum.

Shrug, I drew the nightkill in newbie 2081 despite having not much presence there, although I was on a day 1 scum wagon in that game. I seriously do draw nightkills to an odd degree for whatever reason.

I'm fairly sure if I'm scum I just never unvote Val Day 2, certainly don't do it to try to flashwagon MafMen if he's my partner.

I'll take my lumps if it's not frogs but it feels like the surest bet right now, unless someone is coyly pulling a second-level gambit with these votes.

[catboi]

That's E-1 on Andante, please, no one hammer

[catboi]

strange please understand however much you dislike andante's entrance scum aren't bussing into autoloss here

[catboi]

Now I just feel like I'm being messed with

[catboi]

am i being wifomed, am i tunneled, i have no idea anymore

[catboi]

frogs why should i be reading you as town

[catboi]

I'm definitely being boomed

somewhere

but it is hard to tell

[catboi]

frogs why should i be reading you as town

I have been actively trying to understand everyone all game and engage in solving. Some of my posts to you yesterday were wrapped up in what might be a faulty scum read of you & frustration but I've been forthcoming and thoughtful and explanatory as I can be.

I really think it could be either Val or Adante here. They were both really key votes on greeting yesterday and I think there's a world where Val has had me pocketed like this whole time. :I There's potential partners for both of them too.

This might sound weird but link me some instances of you solving that show you're town?

And do you have mafia experience on a different site?

(I fully admit I was somewhat conf-biasing my case against you yesterday)

[catboi]

Actually, you don't need to answer me, just keep doing what you're doing. Analyze those two. I'll watch.

[catboi]

And do you have mafia experience on a different site?

(I fully admit I was somewhat conf-biasing my case against you yesterday)

This is my first game in any forum mafia setting unfortunatelyyy ^^'''

You have experience elsewhere? face to face or chat mafia or the like? Just curious because I feel like I may have been viewing you through the entirely wrong lens here.

[catboi]

StrangeMatter, and Igor if you flip goon. I.. think it's the same situation with MafMen's slot actually

except maybe there's a world where he and catboi are partners that have been wildly successful at distancing but not bussing?

I don't know any other configuration that makes sense..

I am going to read this post as town for possibly stupid reasons, which means I have gone wrong somewhere

possibly if I look at things independent from associations I don't like andante's introduction. Stay tuned.

[catboi]

catboi looking to throw sus on me now all of a sudden is suspicious

I'd have hammered you when you were at E-1 if I were scum, pony

[catboi]

Idk, my inclination right now is generally that I don't really trust associative that highly in a game like this. I don't really see what's particularly townish about Andante's play so far; the coming in without knowledge thing isn't something I buy as a tell in either direction, I don't see anything from her that doesn't look fakeable by someone replacing in. Frogs feels generally more earnest than she does or mafmen did (not that i'd expect her to be like super earnest on replace in but she kind of gives off the vibe of wanting to appear earnest and idk i'm rambling now but you get the point).

I literally just came to the same conclusion as you the page before this, Lmao. In particular frogs made a post that'd be fairly difficult for newb-scum to fake and Andante's maneuvering is fairly reactive and the immediate reads all feel like a need to show off ~being here~ and ~doing things~ even if it's shallow.

Feel free to take the wheel here.

[catboi]

Well, not difficult, but

unlikely

[catboi]

but also i need sleep nao

[catboi]

VOTE: Andante

I am going to be like,

mega

sad if you are scum btw catboi. I know if you're town this is useless to hear but if you are scum i just want you to feel bad for how painfully you're outplaying me.

I'm more or less ready for day to end when others are. Ofc people don't have to sheep me or anything but I feel like this is just the lim that feels least likely to misfire, and it felt that way yesterday too.

Well, if you know my main, you know I'm

super

prideful in my scum game, but I actually feel like going this hard in a newbie game would be...unsporting? From an informed perspective I'd know I was likely jailed, I'd use igorsprite's fake claim as an opportunity to claim and out the jailkeeper, and I'd trust that I'd distanced well enough from my partner for them to be able to carry the rest of the way. That'd be exemplarly of teaching good fundamental tactics, I think. Blowing a gasket to win as scum against newbies would just be kind of sad.


As it is I'm left with a game that is only

mildly

less embarrassing, where I looked like a completely erratic fool with a foul mouth and confirmation biased myself into bad cases for the sake of having a "solve". But I can at least say I gave the takeaway that you should never idly accept your death as town, but always fight elimination as hard as possible.

[catboi]

VOTE: Andante

Fingers crossed.

[catboi]

We still have a mechanically guaranteed win, technically (although Val is very obviously town at this point, the stuff with MafMen Day 1 is never S/S)

If we flip a VT, you jail igorsprite. igorsprite, if mafia, is exactly a goon and cannot block you. If there is a kill, he is cleared, if there's another no-kill, we have 5 alive with 3 clears and have a mechanical PoE. Doesn't work if you target a VT because roleblocker has priority.

[catboi]

MafMen's read on igorsprite looks so much like TMI but bleh, I have been suspicious of the way igor has been maneuvering for so long

[catboi]

@catboi anything to say about my incredible read skill? u.u

Yeah you've done good

Ah. I understand if I'm the lim today. Can't help but be worried that I can't tell if it's Igor or Val though. D: Good damn game to whichever one of you it is.
I hadn't thought about scum purposely no killing, so I had super thought no death today meant Val was it, especially since Igor's correctly getting a no night action result on me now. But I guess it could be either.

No worries, this is one of those rare cases where the game is an automatic win for town because of mechanics, so you don't need to worry about it.

If you're town (and I'm guessing you are right now), you've played a fine game.

[catboi]

Just to be absolutely unambiguous in case it matters, I will be jailing igor tonight if we don't win today.

VOTE: frogsfrogs

[catboi]

@catboi anything to say about my incredible read skill? u.u

Yeah you've done good

Ah. I understand if I'm the lim today. Can't help but be worried that I can't tell if it's Igor or Val though. D: Good damn game to whichever one of you it is.
I hadn't thought about scum purposely no killing, so I had super thought no death today meant Val was it, especially since Igor's correctly getting a no night action result on me now. But I guess it could be either.

No worries, this is one of those rare cases where the game is an automatic win for town because of mechanics, so you don't need to worry about it.

If you're town (and I'm guessing you are right now), you've played a fine game.

Lolme

Well I guess the game wouldn't be complete without me faceplanting one last time.

frogs you struck me as gut-level scummy for a lot of the game, but I had difficulty putting it into words properly, and when pushed you fought back hard and wound up looking

more

town as a result where I think a lot of newer players crumble under pressure. Things didn't work out for you because of night actions but for a first time playing I think it was a strong game.

[catboi]

I thought I had things to say but my brain is empty, which usually happens. Tough game for me. I don't handle pressure well and getting wagoned off a reaction test sent me into panic mode. I wound up making arguments for the sake of making them rather than because I was truly convinced of them, which is never ever a good thing to do. I do't know, like I said I think never giving up is a good lesson but...there's a lot I could have done better.

[catboi]

I feel like I didn't do nearly enough this game and the only remotely redeeming part of it was

only

the NK bait.

Sometimes it's enough just to be along for the ride and stay alive even if you don't contribute that much in terms of reads. Not everyone gets to be the hero every game.