Open 836: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[Fun and Games]

we mostly talk about the game on discord and skitter posts more because she is much more eloquent (and way smarter)


:3

[Fun and Games]

Also i want to point out that dunn is still doing like nothing

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

@ss can we get a vc plz?

[Fun and Games]

Have been dwelling on your point r.e. wagon composition and trying to decide how much gamma and penguin's votes are bothering me.

We're landing on wanting to vote there anyways

VOTE: ico

Plz note that this is e2, and nm-1

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Skitter is definitely a strong player - I'm just paranoid here because they are good at snowing me and when they are town I feel I get a certain vibe from their play that I am not getting here.

Gonna point out that i believe i was actually scum in many of those instances >.>

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

also, replacing Iconeum

my disappointment is immesureable and my day is ruined.

^

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Still feel p good abt town-cakez

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

fuck if i know. now that he's gone, i can go over the stuff that was bothering me about him, since i can't ask the replacement to answer for them anyway. you still interested in hearing that, or...?

UNVOTE: iconeum (still feel like voting there for now, but let's give the rep a bit of space and make sure there's no accidental yeets yet)

>.>

Perhaps i am biased but i dont like this
~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

VOTE: iconeum
I'm gonna throw my old townblock out the window and make a new one with

blackjack and hookers

cakez, enchant, f&g, and penguin at the center

what's up

Lmao why does my slot act like a genie and only appears when summoned

What did we used to call this? Wasn't it like the Amished tell or something? Is that still a thing?

Yeah amished
Not sure that this is classic-amished but i see where ur gettinf that from

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

My opinion fwiw (if it's worth anything at all): The Ico/D'Arby slot is TOWN. No way BOTH TR me here if this was a scum slot. I should be LHF (at least theoretically) and they didn't get to "talk to each other" so that the former passes the latter "the strategy" they were following.

Take it with a grain of slat, a twist of lemon, and in one shot.

Eh not sure i agree with this logic

~ skittwr

[Fun and Games]

My opinion fwiw (if it's worth anything at all): The Ico/D'Arby slot is TOWN. No way BOTH TR me here if this was a scum slot. I should be LHF (at least theoretically) and they didn't get to "talk to each other" so that the former passes the latter "the strategy" they were following.

Take it with a grain of slat, a twist of lemon, and in one shot.

Eh not sure i agree with this logic

~ skittwr

What does that mean?

Dont think the fact that both you and ico are townreading a50 points to town-you because ico-as-scum would have left notes for you in the scum pt

Well, obviously my opinion "isn't worth anything at all" then

That's not really what i was going for >.>

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

I may write notes abt my thought process sometimes but not directly to my successor, no
I also try very hard to not rep-out as both alignments

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

And some people blame the person they replaced for poor play in order to attempt to wipe the slate clean and start over as if the slot is brand new. It's not a sure fire tell in my opinion but it has merit.

Amished was actually briefly a reliable towntell in regular games when it became super popular in the newbie queue. No idea if it's swung back to usable though.

And as it was explained to me it's more a function of confirmation bias. You know the slot you're reading is scum, so you default to seeing the behaviors as scummy.

you mean scumtell, right?
i think it's fairly reliable

i'm not convinced that the post in question *is* the amished tell tho

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

I kinda wanna vote somewhere that isn't VP but I also fucking hate him trying to act like I owe him anything
It's that age-old thing of "you respect me

as an authority

and I'll respect you

as a person

" which I do not support or abide in any form

I think I quoted this but I’ll quote this again. This post gives me my strongest TR this game with Gamma.

can you please explain this town-read ?

[Fun and Games]

Darby do you have a read on dats?

pedit that was pooky btw

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

you mean scumtell, right?

No. There was a brief period in the meta of the site where it was referenced often enough that it was actually pretty solid that only town would make the mistake of commenting on their predecessor's play. I think it was late 2013 early 2014. It was extreme blowback to the tell becoming popular as a scumtell.

oh hmmmm i didn't know that! def before my time

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

vp he's been scumreading ico since like his second post

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

vp is your issue that you don't think sa has sufficiently explained his reasonign?

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

I mean he does have other reads, i guess i'm just not convinced that the fact that he didnt reallh expound on the ico read makes him scum

Pedit ugh i think this is a tvt >.>
~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

I guess i'm still not sure why 'not explaining his ico push more' -> 'scum-sa'

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Explained reasoning means you don't understand why I think he's scum. But you've read my ISO. So you know the original knee jerk "I've just read my Role PM and I'm gonna play this way" stuff you already quoted. You already know that I feel after he disappeared he avoided me after I voted him and tried to get people to join me. You already know that the fact that Dunn and Gamma wagons took off but Iconeum had verbal support without votes made me feel like he had buddies not wanting to vote him. And you already know I don't like his replacement coming in and talking down at his play.

This exactly struck me as 'natural townie recall' - it sounrs like he really remembers how he felt at various points in the game, when i think scum probably wouldn't have that

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

This exactly struck me as 'natural townie recall' - it sounrs like he really remembers how he felt at various points in the game, when i think scum probably wouldn't have that

These are literally the things Bingle and I quoted him on. He didn't put this up when I asked him to make his Ico case.

I mean sure but the way he wrote it looks to me like he has thay sense of 'I was doing x as a response/reaction to y' that town kinda viserally knows for having lived those thoughts and that scum tends to have trouble reconstructing in retrospect

I think you're probably pushing town here

~

In other news i am p firmly scumreading gamma again

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Gamma's posts dont really have substance to them ...

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

I think darby/gamma makes a lot of sense

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Explained reasoning means you don't understand why I think he's scum. But you've read my ISO. So you know the original knee jerk "I've just read my Role PM and I'm gonna play this way" stuff you already quoted. You already know that I feel after

he disappeared he avoided me

after I voted him and tried to get people to join me. You already know that the fact that Dunn and Gamma wagons took off but Iconeum had verbal support without votes made me feel like he had buddies not wanting to vote him. And you already know I don't like his replacement coming in and talking down at his play.

@ bingle the bolded + repeated 'and you already knows' felt townie to me

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

have y'all caught scum yet?

Who do u want to vote rn?

Also maybe we should think abt consolidating

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

i can't remember what game it was but there was some large theme where town ganged up on you and mislimmed you
Tenet I think?

Ah fair i was thinking of like perpetual elo
~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Gamma's posts dont really have substance to them ...

~ skitter

If I were doing this as scum it would have to be a legit strategy from me, I pretty much always have a “plan” as scum
So like, what do you think my plan is?

Dunno but u also arent scumhunting either

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Gamma Emerald
Almost50

PenguinPower

Not_Mafia

SirCakez

Dunnstral
Sleepless Assassin

Fun and Games (skitter30 & PookyTheMagicalBear)

Bingle

VP Baltar

Datisi
DArby Iconeum

Enchant

this is where my reads are sitting rn (I don't rlly have scumread, just people I don't TR)

- i think u should have scumreads at this point
- what do the varying shades of green even mean
- why are you townreading me/us
-out of all of the non-green names, ehy are you voting ico
- how are you reading sa?

[Fun and Games]

how the fuck am i the same rank as n_m, dunn, ico slot, and sleepless?

lack of anything that feels distinctly towny from you post read purge
also, I'd probably most like to lim Dunn, N_M, or potentially SA
Datisi and DArby at least seem active enough to warrant a pass for today

You realize you're voting ico/darby, right?

[Fun and Games]

Active isn’t the right word
Should have said “engaged”

And given that you'rr currently voting ico why does darby being engaged merit a pass for the slot?

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Its the way he worded it, he seems annoyed at ico ignoring him
~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

regardless of which head this is, you saw similar play in radio buzz so this reaction of thinking this is out there for me to do is kinda bad?

it was me, but pooky agrees
we both feel like your poe is incredibly flat and uninspired and like you don't really care abt pushing anybody in your poe, and don't like how you've been treating/interacting with the ico slot

~ skitter

>.>

[Fun and Games]

@skitter, i believe all of the reads your slot has given on me have been from you? did pooky say anything abt how he's reading me? if not, could you ask/summon him pls?

it's basically all been me, pooky says he's townreading you tho. i'm less sure

VOTE: sircakez

I haven't seen you say anything remotely redeemable about DArby....so why are you wanting to change trajectory entirely?

i was about to ask this when i saw vp did ^^^^

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

like you've been hedging on ico for a while, you cased him earlier, you don't have good things to say about darby on this page, and i believe he's the leading wagon

why are you voting cakez now ...

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

dats you look more and more aligned with ico/darby >.>

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

r.e. the first question - no, not really

r.e. the pedit i'm having a very hard time fathoming/understanding why town-you is not pushing an ico-slot-that-you-scumread. whereas if you're scum with him your trajectory makes a ton of sense

like i just ... don't understand what you're doing here

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

like if your point is gonna be "you weren't voting ico for a lot of it" yeah that was intentional. because it's very possible if i voted him early he would've seen i'm onto him and just went into antispew mode if he's scum.

no that's fair, that's why we were taking our sweet time voting him as well

i don't get why you're vanity-voting cakez *now* when you're scumreading ico, the slot is the leading wagon and i'm p confident that we're not ending on cakez today
like the part htat's looking aligned to me is that you have a lot of *words* saying you're suspicious of ico/darby but aren't *doing* much abt it

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

hi

this is pooky

i am drunk


there is a decent chance

the scum team is

gamma / ico /dunnstral


also

skitter is super brillaint

and

i am a n00b

have a good weekend

love you all

even NM

[Fun and Games]

reviewing Echant's iso

I think his first post is kinda townspewy

and everything else feels decentish? like I can see town!him saying the things he types in here

probly at greater than rand town for me

[Fun and Games]

Where my head is currently.

I probably should have more of a read on VP/SleeplessA -.-

~pooks

[Fun and Games]

I would not stand between a hungry tiger and her food (^_^)

I am not

that

bad

[Fun and Games]

also I can't believe Enchant made it onto the list twice

w i l d

[Fun and Games]

fix'd

[Fun and Games]

How is the pingu only lean town for you Pooky lol

Also I have a kinda goofy reason for why I think skitter is town here

I only need townlean to beat skitter and I'm all about doing the absolute minimum

[Fun and Games]

I think I’ll be more proactive once I can work from a flip

I guess I'm just used to seeing more proactive solving from town!you in every completed game I've played with you in my recent memory and here you're just using a rando excuse that I remember using as scum once upon a time.

[Fun and Games]

this one just ended:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=88043


also examples:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=87498
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=87397
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=87412

[Fun and Games]

Weren't yall townreading me earlier?

You are thinking of SkitteR :3

[Fun and Games]

i don't get why you're vanity-voting cakez *now* when you're scumreading ico, the slot is the leading wagon and i'm p confident that we're not ending on cakez today
like the part htat's looking aligned to me is that you have a lot of *words* saying you're suspicious of ico/darby but aren't *doing* much abt it

because my brain doesn't work like "i scumread person, there is wagon on them, let's yeet them"

i currently think ico is scum, sure. *but* i'm not extremely confident in that read, and there are a lot of slots that i have a very weak read on. which makes it difficult for me to build a good mental image of this game as a whole. and if we just went and yeeted the slot immediately, it wouldn't provide good foundation for me for later days, regardless of the colour of the flip. so i want to get reads elsewhere.

i don't have much to offer you on why this isn't how i play around my partners other than self meta of never having played around my partners ever. i know how it looks to be scumreading one person but voting elsewhere. and i know that cakez is again, much higher in the collective reads than ico, and that i currently don't have that much towncred to push things with. especially not with a push that's a naked vote + "lol idk i just want other reads ahaha".

like, i'm not too interested in arguing this with you because i know you're just gonna see my behaviour as aligned despite this being the polar opposite of my scumplay and having already screwed up on whether i was aligned/disaligned with ico in jk9++. you should probably be more worried if i'm scum trying to softdefend town!ico and making us seem aligned so that nobody takes me seriously.

Thanks dats, this is actually very helpful and makes me feel better abt the cakez vote

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Also I have a kinda goofy reason for why I think skitter is town here

Go on

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

To answer Penguin’s question earlier, I do have a read on you now: town. You’re absolutely tunneling me but I think it comes more from not knowing how I play vs actively taking my questions in bad faith.

What about me?

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Im assuming Im getting limmed today, which is absolutely fine. My flip should at least give give associative reads and I post one final reads list so work can be done d2. I am the logical conclusion today. I don’t see why you want to deviate to put pressure so close to the end of the day with no traction.

In the event you do flip town who should we be looking at?

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

imagine asking a hydra to actually sync up their reads

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Can we like consolidate on darby / gamma now
Want the replacements but like other than tjat not sure we're getting kuch else out of today tbh

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

it feels like the purpose of darby's posting is to avoid death and not to actually find bad guys

also the reason skitter/me have different reads on VP baltar is because I'm religiously allergic to reading wall-posts and she loves complete sentences.

[Fun and Games]

why would I hate you

if anything I kinda find you a bit scummy because you haven't pissed me off yet lol

[Fun and Games]

she loves complete sentences

This can't be true. I post almost exclusively in complete sentences and she always tunnels me.

Sounds like a you problem

[Fun and Games]

Can we not speedlim b4 we get a replacement pls

why

this game isnt mountainous duh

i dont have my hydra password stored on my phone

>.>

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

:/

How is this towny recall? Not a big fan of this read from you. It seems poorly defined and elusive, like you're trying to justify a townread as opposed to actually thinking SA is towny.

I dont know how to explain it further, the way he worded it felt very townie to me

I call pooky in the divorce. No offense skitter, but he brings me more interesting setups to review.

>.>

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

dats you look more and more aligned with ico/darby >.>

~ skitter

:/

i think i am Interested in knowing what that post called for a :/

skitter seems really invested in the narrative of a you/ico scumteam which seems really unlikely from where I sit. I actually think that skitter has worse associations with Ico than you do, and the repeated attempts to paint you as S/S is a big red flag for me. I've explained a couple of times why I think you're not partnered (spoilered below) and she drops the issue, but it keeps coming up again and I don't understand the thought process at all.

Spoiler:

Fair enuf!

what are your present thoughts on gamma and penguin?
(And i would ask abt ico/dats as well but i believe u said u were waiting there)

~ skitter

I think gamma is scum. Basically I’m getting the feeling that he’s trying to present the thread in a certain way. Particularly the post when he said my “objection” to A50s meta tell was relevant seemed manipulative.

Pengy hasn’t really been doing anything but isn’t getting a lot of attention. I think if baltar is scum they have a lot of equity together, but I’m also townreading baltar so I’m not super worried there atm.

I think you’re wrong about ico/dats being S/S. Making the ico read this drawn out seems like a weird way to go for dats if they’re buddies. They’d have to know that the longer they drew it out the worse it would look if they failed to produce results and it’s not like one of them would die conveniently over the night at some point to prevent the need for a grand reveal or follow through. Unfortunately, I could easily see either of them being scum at this point: dats leaning on ico being absent to not have to engage as much is a tinfoil I have, and there’s just a whole lot of nothing from ico.

bingle, do you think i'm purposefully not engaging with this game? like, do you genuinely have a problem with the amount of content i've had so far?

Do I think you haven’t posted enough? No. Do I think the amount/content of what you’ve posted makes you town? Also no. Do I think focusing on ico when you did was a convenient way to produce content that scum you could take advantage of? Yes. Do I think that town you wouldn’t have focused on ico there? No, although that’s more based on how skitter is treating your ability to read ico than firsthand knowledge of your ability with him.

I agree that you’d probably have a more nuanced read/plan by now if you/ico was S/S though.

Tbf the thing that i most recently said abt ico/dats is that after dats explained his approach/his cakez vote, i actually felt that universe was less likely

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Out of dunn/ico/gamma dunn is my least favorite vote, and we should get a replacement before we flip him

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

i think the other 2 are worse than dunn, and i'm p sure that gamma is viable today

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

i think the other 2 are worse than dunn

This isn't really an answer though. How are they worse? or rather, what is good about Dunn?

Dunn has done like literally nada as both mafia and town before.

the meta comparison with Gamma is more striking in that I can usually see what Gamma is trying to do.

Ico was actively more scummy when he was here.


~Pooks

[Fun and Games]

I think you greatly overestimate how much time we spend discussing reads outside of the people we want to kill

[Fun and Games]

probably my fault cuz i'm a lazy bear lol

[Fun and Games]

can i get a simple explanation of why gamma is scum that's more than "not solvey" because i am not in the mood to be rereading a full iso to be trying to figure that out

it's basically 'not solve-y' but a few points/nuances within that include:
- basically not scumhunting
- having little content and resorting to ate when he got wagoned
- his readslist/poe is very simplistic and i'm not sure he actually thought about it very much (you're on the same tier as his scumreads, voting darby/ico while saying he kinda liked him, and so on)

+ i think his slot is partner-y with ico's slo

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

i think the other 2 are worse than dunn

This isn't really an answer though. How are they worse? or rather, what is good about Dunn?

as much as i hate to admit it, i have seen town-dunn behave like this before

so he's being like ~bad~ but i'm not sure how much of it is actually scum-indicative for him

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

I dont know how to explain it further, the way he worded it felt very townie to me

I don't think you're struggling to explain it. I understand why you might think the wording was towny and if that is the explanation that's fine. The question I have is why when I asked what you thought was a towny recall of things you backtracked into a very different reason to townread him. It makes me think the original reason you gave for townreading him was bullshit, which is even worse coming from a hydra who should be talking about reads internally than from a normal player.

a) we're not talking about reads all that much
b) the way it was worded made me think that, it's not a 'very different reason' for me. i don't know how else to explain 'those words' made me have 'that thought'

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

I think I’ll be more proactive once I can work from a flip

I guess I'm just used to seeing more proactive solving from town!you in every completed game I've played with you in my recent memory and here you're just using a rando excuse that I remember using as scum once upon a time.

this one just ended:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=88043


also examples:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=87498
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=87397
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=87412

I kind of have already said this many times dude.

[Fun and Games]

You feel very reactive to what's going on around you rather than actually proactively trying to push the game towards your viewpoint.

[Fun and Games]

-how is that even scummy
-uhhh Datisi is kinda sus for me rn? And me not keeping track of where I’m voting is nowhere near a novel event, and also nowhere near a scumtell for me

- not such a townie way to react to a wagon on you + getting wagoned didn't motivate you to actaully do anything this game. it looks like you ate'd, got the wagon to divert, and continued to do absolutely nothing for another week
- voting someone you're claiming you kinda townread belies a dissonance between how you're actually viewing the game and what you're doing in it, and makes me think your reads aren't really real (cuz if they were, i imagine you'd be cognizant of the fact that you changed reads on the person you're voting, and thus change your vote as well)

- we also dislike your baltar vote and how you were relying on your 'annoyance' of him to keep your vote there, thus allowing you to keep the same vote for 20 pages and not do anything and not have to interact with anybody else or push anything

also r.e. your complaint that my 'opinion on you isn't really fleshed out early on' - you're right, it wasn't. why is that important and/or scummy? i didn't develop a firm scumread on you until much after the posts you're quoting

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

why is dats sus for you rn

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Well up until now my basis in this game has felt very weak so I didn’t feel like trying to press based on that was very honest.

i mean so we should just ... acknowledge that you're not doing anything and not push you for it? what are you expecting here ...

[Fun and Games]

I find it a bit outlandish you think I’d see I was doing poorly as scum and decide to go “yeah I don’t feel a need to fix this”,

especially

given you think my partners are also slots that have pretty bad positioning in this game? The only time I’d really opt for complacency as scum currently is if I feel like doing nothing is not going to end up resulting in loss of ability to steer the game in my team’s favor down the line.

Do you expect us to townread you for not doing anything?

[Fun and Games]

That doesn't actually answer my question

[Fun and Games]

And it took 20 pages for it to feel like I’d gotten the message across with my vote, because that was the entire point of it.

what was the point of your vote?

[Fun and Games]

No. But I expect your solve to not be transparently shitty.

Your complaint is about perfection, it's not something I am going for

[Fun and Games]

Basically: a big fat middle finger to the unearned authority Baltar was trying to exert on me.

sure but I don't see how that is advancing the win condition which is finding bad guys

[Fun and Games]

I don't expect my solve to be perfect

I don't expect every scumbag to be passive

I don't expect the scum team to have laid down and decided to die.

However I do still think people who are passive/not really trying to scum hunt are more likely to be scum than people who are exhibiting enthusiasm and solving intent.

You trying to AtE your way out of suspicion by saying "You seriously think none of the scum are trying to do anything to control the game’s outcome?"

Is kind of just straw-manning.

[Fun and Games]

I don’t care. I think your scumpool is trash so if it’s not meant as a team guess then tell me what teams you see as possible.

kind of a ridiculous thing to ask for on day 1,

then again this entire rage-y diatribe of yours is ridiculous.

[Fun and Games]

Does everything I do have to have the express intent of wincon advancement? VP told me to vote Dunn if I wanted to live, I said “fuck that noise”.

The point of the game is to try to win the game.

[Fun and Games]

Try anyway. And I feel like I have a pretty good reason to be drilling you like this. I had a bit of a realization as to your approach to me that makes me think your play around me in this game is not in good faith.

Your aggression needs work. It has to be plausible in some ways. Rage is not influential on its own.

Going from 0 to 150 when nothing has changed is kind of a self-own.

[Fun and Games]

Which head is speaking rn because if this is Pooky you’re practically scumclaiming with that assertion. Is everything

you

do designed to help win the game?

I mean I do trolly shit all the time but that's me.

you're you.

I think you take the game a lot more seriously than I do ! :3

[Fun and Games]

Also: games are played for fun dingus. Winning is a part of that but someone also has to lose. You can have fun no matter the outcome. A win that isn’t fun doesn’t really feel as great as a loss that is, imo.

I'm unsure how sticking your vote on baltar and not moving it or pushing him or anything is "fun" for you.

It seems somewhat pointless

[Fun and Games]

Things have changed for my perception of you tho
Wanna take a guess as to why?

I'm sure you will enlighten me at some point

[Fun and Games]

Does everything I do have to have the express intent of wincon advancement? VP told me to vote Dunn if I wanted to live, I said “fuck that noise”.

Are you saying you wouldn't vote Dunn because of VP even if you thought Dunn was scum?

Are you saying you want to vote VP even if you don't think he's scum?

Are you saying you don't want to use your vote to pressure and scumhunt just because VP said something disagreeable to you?

I can understand you being upset at VP cuz he talked shit to you

but that doesn't really give you the excuse to be like "I'm not going to play the game and I'll just park my vote on VP for 20 pages to make a point"

Which btw is meaningless because it's not like 1 vote can kill someone.

[Fun and Games]

I kinda felt a sense of joy in sticking my rebellion in VP’s face

Look dude,

I'm not some kind of psychic who knows how your mind works

but for me, the best way to shut VP up would be if you used your vote to hunt down some scumbag and told VP to shove it cuz you're better at scumhunting than him.

putting a vote on him that goes nowhere just feels super pointless to me

[Fun and Games]

Things have changed for my perception of you tho
Wanna take a guess as to why?

I'm sure you will enlighten me at some point

Think about what games we’ve played together and why I’d be so critical of your approach to me.

I don't even know what you're talking about

[Fun and Games]

Hidden Temple: idr what VP’s reads were like but I definitely remember my own reads being pretty fucking solid because I had 3/6 pairs sorted as town/town very early on and those were all correct. And Pooky was in that game so honestly I don’t fucking understand how he sees my approach here and thinks it’s so outlandish for me to prioritize townhunting when that’s done really fucking well for me in the past when it comes to developing accurate reads.

I'm comparing your play to recent games I've played with town!you,

I cited them in a list, you can add mountain dew to that list as well. I am not comparing you to hidden temple because it happened over a year ago and I don't have the best memory.

[Fun and Games]

yes

and in that game you were pretty aggressive in attacking my slot and doing things proactively on D1.

which is one of the things we're not seeing from you in this game, hence why we think you are scum.

[Fun and Games]

like look at your ISO from that game:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

and look at your ISO from this game.

It's like so different in terms of energy level, pro activeness, eagerness to play etc.

[Fun and Games]

@pooky - how helpful was Gamma in trying to find solves D1 in Hidden Temple. You and skitter seem to be making a meta argument here. I feel like I'm seeing the same ego driven argument style from Gamma that does pop up in his town play. It's the same attitude you all attacked me with in that game. I don't disagree that Gamma hasn't been solving a ton here, but the tenor of his posting is similarly abrasive at times...which seems like a bad approach as scum.

I don't use hidden temple as comp because I feel after gamma siteflaked and then came back his town play improved significantly and I've been fairly good at spotting it in games with him hence why I use recent completed games as a comparison.

[Fun and Games]

Like, it begs to end up in a 1v1, which is not really where you want to be as scum.

I don't like this argument because he doesn't have a lot of choices here.

If he's scum, he could feel compelled to do something rather than wait to die.

If he pushes elsewhere he could end up spewing someone else town and turning that person against himself

Whereas he could hope swinging back at us gets him townread for audacity or w/e.

[Fun and Games]

Fun fact: Mtn Dew is the game sparking this interaction!

based off of me or pooky

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Fwiw on my end it really isnt meta based at all, but rather on what he's been doing this game

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

I havent played a ton of games with gamma super recently

Most recent town-him was radio buzz, wherein he was a shining beacon of towniness, and here je isnt. But i'm not inherently scumreading him for the difference, but rather the lack of towniness here is making him significantly harder to townread if he's town, and the actual content he's put in the game is scummy imo
~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Oh tbf there was mountain dew as well but i (we) were scum and i wasnt really trying to read him and honestly dont have such a great impression of what he was doing that game

Also trying to figure out if his issue r.e. mountain dew is me or pooky

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

I really have no idea wtf u r talking about dude

[Fun and Games]

There’s not that much time left. We need to start consolidating a wagon.

- the day is going to be extended with 2 empty slots
- we should be consolidating on you or gamma, yes

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Fiiiiine I'll say what I mean. I read the Mtn Dew scum PT and saw that pooky wrote out an elim order that had me as the day 1 miselim. So obviously he considers me an easy target. And the way he's been trying to deflect pressure off of anyone that isn't me seems to suggest he's trying to do the same shit again. I may be a slow learner but I do learn.
VOTE: Fun and Games
I think it's pretty damn evident F&G are trying to miselim me here.

- cant speak for pooky but i think you're being genuinely scummy here
- not sure why u think we're trying to misflip you vs genuninely scumreading you
- related: do you think we ought to be townreading you here?

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Getting replaced, why the slot is getting wagoned now is beyond me

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Then if it’s meta, I can’t argue for or against. For now I’ll trust it.

VOTE: Dunn

I don’t think 3 votes is a speed run, but I’m fine to at least hear the replacement out. I’d be a hypocrite otherwise.

>.>
Why are you even voting dunn?

~skitter

[Fun and Games]

- why not?
- that doesnt answer the question: if i'm scumreading you, i'd be doing exactly that, no? I will also note we're not even voting you ...
- why is it obviously town?

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

actually you looking for some stupid reason to start a 1v1 fight is kinda ++ scum lol

[Fun and Games]

it is much easier than actually scum hunting and it avoids the issue of spewing someone town if he fails and gets elimmed today.

[Fun and Games]

like I don't believe Gamma found some random post I made in a scum pt and thinks its a smoking gun and then decided to "drill" me with it while not talking about it and now dramatically reveals it.

Like that makes no sense to me

if town him actually believes this is some sort of smoking gun I think he just posts it and attacks.

Instead he feels like he is trying to calculate if he can get away with this or make us back down by just threatening and now when he sees sentiment in thread is doubtful, he figures he has nothing to lose so he just lets it rip.

[Fun and Games]

Ok so you did your research, do you actually have an example of a time when scum!me tries to kill town!you on D1?

[Fun and Games]

in Mtn Dew pretty much all of your interaction was with Noraa

We never voted for you or really pushed to elim you.

In Gensokyo I voted you in RVS for like a day? Never pushed or tried to get you eliminated.

[Fun and Games]

what the hell happened in mtn dew that derailed the initially elim order for y'all

Lots of things happened,

Which you should know since you played in it.

Btw your play in this game looks nothing like your town play in Mtn Dew

and my play in this game looks nothing like my scum play in Mtn Dew.

So how exactly are me/skitter supposed to figure out from your play that you're town here?

You also haven't provided a single example from your "research" of scum!me pushing town!you on d1 so it kinda feels like you are doing the whole "making a mountain out of a molehill" thing

[Fun and Games]

Gamma, how confident are you in this pooky tell? It reads quite thin.

Not as much as I was before. But I also do not like their way of reacting to my pressure of gaslighting me.

This is downright absurd

[Fun and Games]

What is your point?

[Fun and Games]

You’re trying to discredit my accusation by calling me crazy.

Your accusation is that Scum!me sees you as an easy mis-elimination and that you've done research into this and you think that's what I'm doing here.



I asked you for a single example of scum!me pushing town!you's elimination on D1 from your research.

You gave me 2 examples, and in neither game did I actually push for you to be eliminated - on Day 1 or any other Day.

This is not me calling you crazy.

This is me pointing out you don't actually have any evidence.




I would also point out that when you decided to be accepting of your death and you were on E-1(which is basically waiting for NM to log on), Skitter actually bought your AtE and unvoted - hardly behavior that I think makes sense if we are salivating for your mis-elimination.

[Fun and Games]

Gamma, how confident are you in this pooky tell? It reads quite thin.

Not as much as I was before. But I also do not like their way of reacting to my pressure of gaslighting me.

i kinda object to the notion that we're gaslighting you ...

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

>.>

[Fun and Games]

Both of u seem so off to me >.>

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Both gamma and darby have called the other a tr earlier and now both are voting (or are wiling to vote) the other

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

My issue is primarily with the treatment I’ve received, making good points doesn’t negate that. Call it personal if you want but I just think it’s a horrible vibe.

I don't have any personal animosity with you. In fact I usually townread you when you're town.

You claimed that I would as scum try to mis-elim Town!you early because I see you as an easy target or w/e.

I asked you for an example when that happened.

You have so far provided none.

[Fun and Games]

Well sure that's one way to take it. But Pookys scum reads are the three being wagoned. It feels too easy. Like not one of gamma/darby/Dunn is town and there's no scum outside of that?

It's not a team solve

it is where people are on suspicion for me.

[Fun and Games]

I would expect there to be more baddies on the scumread section than the townread section.

I wouldn't expect all three scumreads to be scum.

[Fun and Games]

Like how is it even reasonable for you to think that I think I have an exact team solve on day 1 with 0 flips?

[Fun and Games]

sup buddy long time no see

[Fun and Games]

Both gamma and darby have called the other a tr earlier and now both are voting (or are wiling to vote) the other

~ skitter

I have done the unforgivable: I have changed my opinion when presented with new information.

Lol, I jest. Is there anything else you find off?

i mean do you want to walk me through how you went from 'top tr' to 'voting him'

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Dwlee99 replaces Not_Mafia!

oh hello!

[Fun and Games]

Skitter just seems rational and seems to be saying a lot that I can follow and agree with.

fwiw you're townreading my half too easily

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

I find F&G to be scummy independently

hi, plz elaborate

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

But Pookys scum reads are the three being wagoned. It feels too easy. Like not one of gamma/darby/Dunn is town and there's no scum outside of that?

good point

- it's not a team read, those are just are biggest suspects
- i believe we were scumreading them before their wagons iirc

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

F&G's interactions with Gamma feel like such bad faith like they are trying so hard to make Gamma look bad

no, imo:
- gamma doesn't have real reads, and his poe/pushes are changing in a way that doesn't look to me like he's re-evaluating/thinking about the game
- related, there's very little follow-through in his posts, it's hard to follow his thought process from vote a -> vote b, or how his reads change
- his push on us is nonsense imo

i don't think we're arguing in bad faith, and we're not *trying* to make gamma look gbad so much as explaining why we scumread him and refuting his scumread on us

pedit kk sure

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

I don't think Gamma's responses were that bad and I'd expect them to be doubling down as town here

i mean now he's backing down so ...
and his responses were p bad

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

it feels like you were trying to take advantage of me being absent to swing a new wagon away from today's common suspects

i mean unless all 3 common suspects are scum why would he be trying to do that / why can't he push the town in the common suspects if he's scum

i'm not even sure he's revitalizing your wagon either

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

V/LA until the 29th

Have a chance to get my schoolwork back in order a bit, but there’s a lot I need to work on so I can’t spend a lot of time on mafia.

hope this goes well!

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Heya all new peeps

- i like andante so far
- toog's meh, wanna hear more abt why he dislikes us
- slight townpings on dwlee but not a strong read yet
- i feel really, really, really good about bingle town now (and thus a50 town)
- i'm not really sure what to do with gamma's self-vote or if its ai, we might go back to gamma

Now sure how around i'll be rhis weekend

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

- i like andante so far

I don’t
Also why is Toog “meh”? Do you just not want to townread him, because you know he’s frequently LHF early?

>.>
I kinda object to the accusation in this post ...

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Spoiler:

For examples, I like the tone in these posts for town

cuz reading his catchup it reminded me of that time ico/me were scum together in kids with lungs and the dude would basically lurk and then "catchup" in "bursts" where he would post like 20 times in a row and not actually interact with the thread in any way.

yeah please metadive and tell us what you find

i'm not gonna explain my personal life ITT

i have a tinfoil theory that involves Fun and Games, Datisi and myself… i'm probably getting heat for this but i don't really care lol

Fun and Games' scumread on me feels really weak. They are pushing Datisi as associative with me because they know i'm yeetbait and the *one* thing standing in their way for easy achievement of that is Datisi townreading me

So this could literally be scum!Fun and Games (damn that name, i tried abreviating that) pushing town!tisi into some sort of corner with regards to my slot, trying to 1) make sure there's no town!tisi defending me and 2) stopping potential town cohesion from forming

Datisi's case on VP, I think Dats is genuinely believing what he's seeing here...
town!tisi? oh man if my gut on Fun and Games is right i'm gonna be so happy i don't think i've ever caught scum!skit, let alone scum!pooky

ok, now that i have more than 3 brain cells working at the same time

this is like. uh. why the hell are you townreading any of those posts lol

i'm again getting reminded that ico magically wanted to yeet dunn (like straight up said he wants to fucken yeet dunn) while obviously not solving much, *and* also having a decent amount of interaction with skitt and calling the slot shady but... he want yeet dunn? who barely here? wwwhat??

also 882 is reminding me of a time where scum!ico was like "shit i got into a slapfight with datisi early and he didn't like it... wow what a good case is datisi town?" but this is maybe my own bias at this point

Reminder that ico's slot has really icky associatives with gamma

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

skitt, can i get link/tldr on that, i am a bit checked out

also what you think of cakez

Ico consistently pushed dunn when both dunn/gamma were getting pressure, and didnt really talk about gamma at all

Darby repped in and immediately declared gamma his strongest townread

And is now voting him, and the progression in between is rather meh imo

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Oh and cakez is fine, i probably townread him

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

- toog's meh, wanna hear more abt why he dislikes us

Early vibe I got. I'm only 10 pages in on the read through. I didn't specifically like the way you gave out town reads so easily. Seemed to me like an early peace pipe.

I mean some people i just got to a townread early. Dont remember who exactly i was townreading thru p10 tho

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Probably like 65-35? Or maybe a little more me?

He's been very involved in the gamma push but otherwise most posts are me

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

the a50 read officially cemented it for me

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

actually i change my mind bingle is really fucking scummy

Uh why?

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

I, uh, missed yours >.>

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

I kinda wanna vote somewhere that isn't VP but I also fucking hate him trying to act like I owe him anything
It's that age-old thing of "you respect me

as an authority

and I'll respect you

as a person

" which I do not support or abide in any form

I think I quoted this but I’ll quote this again. This post gives me my strongest TR this game with Gamma.

@darby

[Fun and Games]

Cute avi enchant :3

[Fun and Games]

tru

[Fun and Games]

I am optimistic for this flip

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

If darby flips scum though, that's likely dats confirmtown. If Gamma is scum as well, today was a complete cluster fuck for the red jerseys

kinda sounds like baltar scum tsk tsking at his soon to be fallen comrades :3

[Fun and Games]

Also:
Hey F&G, still think I'm scum here for my effort levels? Because now that Slaughter Hour is over, I think it's a load of shit that you saw how much effort I poured into my scumgame there and turn around and try to assert that I'm playing such a weak scumgame here.

is your counter example really a game where you r scum and I said you are scum on d1?

[Fun and Games]

like I was pretty sure you were scum in that game

thats why i pushed you d1 and got you throned

you can see from my posts in dead pt i was sure you were scum even after you did your "efforty" thing

a

[Fun and Games]

I'm just pissed off beyond belief that people aren't listening to my TRs, and EVEN MORE SO since I'M NOT SCUM and my TRs being right and dying off for shit reasons is actually quite annoying!

your anger feels pretty performative at this point ngl

[Fun and Games]

Datisi did nothing wrong

[Fun and Games]

He is a good player and he made the shot he felt was right

Raging at him because he happened to make a shot that landed on an IC is kinda gross

for one thing he can't respond to you.

For another thing it feels like you are doing it performatively to show how town you are rather than geniune anger

[Fun and Games]

what's done is done

I am sure he feels bad enough already without people giving him shit about it

it's just a game

[Fun and Games]

VOTE: gamma

I think dats is a p weird kill ngl, makes me think there's a p deep scum

I also think that dunn/toog is very +town from the slots interactions with ico

I wonder who's scum offwagon as well

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Also:
Hey F&G, still think I'm scum here for my effort levels? Because now that Slaughter Hour is over, I think it's a load of shit that you saw how much effort I poured into my scumgame there and turn around and try to assert that I'm playing such a weak scumgame here.

Just because you poured effort into that one doesnt automatically mean you'd put the same level of effort into this one, i'm not sure what you're trying to say here

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Kk so lets wagon gamma
Also think ur pretty town tbh

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

VP is very scummy lol

[Fun and Games]

skitter does not agree with my VP scum read btw

[Fun and Games]

kinda curious rn if Andante has the same reasons for thinking VP is a scumbag as I do

[Fun and Games]

I'm reading the way Gamma interacts with you and it feels like bad distancing lol

[Fun and Games]

Andante is either town or hacked into my mind somehow -.-

[Fun and Games]

ok hold up, Darby's Gamma read is 100% textbook reading a partner, that's early ISO, means I think I got my VP read off of Gamma

I've been saying this for like a week >.>

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

I've liked what I've read though

It's a lot of ISO stuff, with how Gamma/Darby/Toog have interacted with VP, also look at the final wagon. VP stayed on Gamma. Gamma will flip red. Gamma was more obvious than Darby, it makes more sense to try and keep the vote with your obvious partner. Idk how you tr VP

So I'm scum because I was trying to flip someone who was red in your eyes, and arguably is more competent than Darby?

That's an insanely insulting read of my scum playing ability.

And what is the interaction with Gamma you're referring to? You mean where he screeched for my head and put a fake ass vote there for 20 pages?

if you're gonna fight with your scum buddy, you should do it in the scum pt instead of the main thread cuz it looks super fake when you do it in public

[Fun and Games]

At a time when ico/gamma/dunn (toog) were the main viable options, ico kept trying to push towards dunn and ignored gamma, which i think is +town for toog and damning for gamma

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

I know I have to big shoes to fill here but I hope I won't disappoint

Thanks for replacing in, Dwlee!

Yes

Now tell me who is scum or I'll end up aimlessly isoing people

Probably Dunn, maybe Darby and Gamma.

I also think Sleepless, but no one is supporting me there.

Bingle is town. Datisi is probably town.

A flip should give some clarity on the rest.

like this is so lol if you r mafia with darby/gamma

[Fun and Games]

part of me thinks that ico/gamma can be aligned ... ico has been steering away from gamma and trying to direct to dunn

~ skitter

At least since here, possibly earlier

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Gamma was at 6 votes with his own vote on himself

Darby was at 3

Gamma didn't even vote switch to Darby until A50 changed the direction

[Fun and Games]

and VP Baltar said A50 direction changing from Gamma -> Darby was bad

but Gamma doesn't call out VP Baltar

like that's just bad ?

[Fun and Games]

to get towncred duh

[Fun and Games]

if gamma/darby is S/S like we are assuming

You want to be on the wagon that goes through so you look good tommorrow and get to push the people on the other wagon.

You didn't like A50 changing direction from Gamma to Darby because it leaves you on the wagon that isn't going through and Gamma had already checked out and didn't even want to play anymore since he was self-voting.

[Fun and Games]

The most damning thing is that Gamma didn't go back and look at this situation and see who was against this wagon change because if he was town he should be looking at that.

[Fun and Games]

there wasn't really a way for you to get an elimination outside of Darby/Gamma.

You guys tried to kill dunnstral but that didn't work out that well.

[Fun and Games]

Nah the way Gamma pushed back on my readslist strongly indicates its not a gamma/darby/tooge team imo

[Fun and Games]

Did you miss the part where VP Baltar tells Gamma to vote Dunn or die and Gamma is like "fuck off dude" and put his vote on VP Baltar for 20 pages

absolutely hilarious if they're scum together

can't wait to read what was going on in that scum PT.

"unearned authority"

[Fun and Games]

you were a bit more hyper eod tbf

[Fun and Games]

it was like some sonic the hedgehog action

[Fun and Games]

I'd be sad if andante was mafia

cuz it'd mean skitter would pull ahead of me in the penguin reading contest.

but like she's so townie

so I really doubt that'll happen.

>.>

<.<

[Fun and Games]

Andante is the last scum. Calling it now. No way town they come out this hard cherry picking and spamming stuff on the day Gamma is going down otherwise.

Pooky is just absolutely terrible at reading me and will shit tunnel the rest of the game.

uh

Andante is voting for Gamma

it's not like she's trying to deflect off to you or w/e.

She's just excited to solve for Gamma's partner

which is pretty funny tbh

I don't think scum does that lol.

[Fun and Games]

Penguin looks like an impossible read

As a fellow gif abuser I'm quite good at reading someone through gif usage ^_^

[Fun and Games]

You are more powerful than you know Enchant

[Fun and Games]

you are so powerful enchant

[Fun and Games]

You're saying A50 flipped the momentum, literally can't be A50

While i do think a50 is town for other reasons, in the event that gamma is scum flipping from scum-gamma to scum-darby i dont think is particularly +town

I do wish we had given time for bingle/toog to post tho

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

VOTE: Fun and Games

Serious vote?

311-313 felt like they were preempting their argument in a scummy way

oh actually a serious vote?

what was preempting about it? and what made it scummy?

I've skimmed. I'll put up detailed responses in a bit.

Gamma having a one sided conversation with me while I was gone and taking pot shots doesn't look great.

Also, the pressure dissipating on Gamma and Dunn as soon as I was away looks suspicious. Shenanigans are afoot.

I don't mind pushing Dunn together with you and going from there

Dunn is still a solid yeet for today imo

His follow up where he unvotes Gamma, one of his 2 suspects and then completely neglects Fun and Games without really doing anything else

yeah

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dunn

Legit think there are two scum in (Dunn, Gamma, enchant, Ico)

Game is moving too fast and they can't keep with the pace. Sleeper scum in the actives.

i've got scumpings on echant and Dunn, i don't *really* agree with the other 2 names you got there

VOTE: Dunn

i'll be back after the weekend with more.

Given that gamma was on the same tier as dunn in ico's readslist, these posts where ico is pushing towards dunn but ignoring gamma makes me feel like gamma is partnered but dunn is not

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Funniest world is bingle has a guilty and then doesn't get a chance to out it

big true

tho honestly I'd kill vpb even if bingle inno'd him

[Fun and Games]

Sure

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

I dont have as strong of a senss of who the third is, i've been feeling really good abt ico/gamma for a while now, bur i'm not sure who the last one is

I do feel good townreading bingle, a50, and andante tho

Probably good with toog/dwlee (for toog its entirely because of ico associatives)

Would start with everyone else

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

UNVOTE:

I mean i'm happy to unvote but i'm p sure he got hammered already

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

lol

[Fun and Games]

we r hypocopping an inno on SA

[Fun and Games]

i think last scum is just baltar

the way gamma nope'd out of the game feels very much like he is scum and he is mad at baltar lol

[Fun and Games]

Agree

Also can we try to do fast night plz

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Gamma and VP are both very opinionated about how to run a scum team

I don't think they would work together very well.

Makes Gamma's "unearned authority" comment make more sense

[Fun and Games]

w i l d

[Fun and Games]

why

skitter is way smarter than me and i respect her opinion and will always defer to her :3

[Fun and Games]

its not like i need encouragement dude

[Fun and Games]

which game are you talking about lol

[Fun and Games]

Fun and Games was all "A50 has to be town" the only one who really saw the momentum flip, I see no reason scum would leave skitter and pooky alive here either, those 2 are strong players individually, and now they are 1. Fun and Games is 10000% flipping scum

but we're town

[Fun and Games]

I have no idea what game you are talking about

is there a link?

[Fun and Games]

LOL

[Fun and Games]

Who is scum F&G?

skitter is going to do this part

[Fun and Games]

cuz we're 1 day from mylo and she's better than me at it

[Fun and Games]

Fun and Games was all "A50 has to be town" the only one who really saw the momentum flip, I see no reason scum would leave skitter and pooky alive here either, those 2 are strong players individually, and now they are 1. Fun and Games is 10000% flipping scum

Hello i need more of an explanation for how you went from mindmeld yesterday to this

~ skitter